0:00

Caffeine, known for

0:03

being energy, famous for

0:05

being buzzy. Nobody thinks

0:07

much about it, so let's have some

0:09

fun. Let's find out why caffeine is

0:13

secretly incredibly fascinating.

0:33

Hey there, folks. Welcome to a

0:35

whole new podcast episode, a podcast all

0:37

about why being alive is more interesting

0:40

than people think it is. My name

0:42

is Alex Schmidt, and I'm not alone

0:44

because I'm joined by my co-host, Katie

0:46

Golden. Katie, what is your relationship to

0:49

or opinion of caffeine? I

0:51

like it. And it... Cool.

0:54

I really enjoy espresso, and

0:57

it helps me feel

0:59

awake and good. But

1:01

if I drink even just a little

1:03

too much of it, I feel like

1:06

there's a million bees trying to

1:08

burst out of my head. So

1:12

it's a delicate process. I

1:14

cannot exceed my daily

1:16

caffeine cap or terrible

1:18

things happen. But

1:20

then when I don't have caffeine,

1:23

I also feel pretty garbo, pretty

1:25

Greta Garbo. So yeah,

1:27

it's a delicate balance here, like

1:30

walking a tightrope made out of espresso

1:32

beans. Okay, I'm

1:34

in the same boat, and I've never thought to

1:36

call it Greta Garbo, but maybe I will. If

1:39

I ever step down the caffeine or miss it,

1:42

I'll be like, I'm feeling so the glamorous

1:45

star of Grand Hotel. Oh,

1:47

jeez. Yeah. I just want

1:49

to languish on a

1:51

fainting couch. Yeah. Shimmering

1:54

outfit. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm

1:57

especially thinking of it with last week's episode being

1:59

computer. cursors. I think computer cursors

2:01

and caffeine have been extraordinarily necessary

2:03

to every episode of this podcast

2:06

happening. Main things, donors through Maximum

2:08

Fun. And then after that we

2:10

need these tools like me

2:12

being able to type and me being energized.

2:15

Dragging that little coffee icon

2:17

into the Alex icon. Oh

2:20

now I do want a Susan Care graphic

2:22

of me as an icon just being a

2:24

little happy in Bitmap. Oh this would

2:26

be good. And the suggestion

2:29

of this topic is Da Coupe Bear,

2:31

also with support from JCRDude and many

2:33

others. And one format

2:35

note here, it's a normal format episode.

2:38

If anybody is super thinking, oh they

2:41

could have talked more about coffee or

2:43

tea or soda or energy drinks or

2:45

the gigantic list of things

2:47

that have caffeine, please support

2:49

the show and then join our Discord,

2:51

suggest topics, be in the polls for topics.

2:54

Because yeah this will mainly be

2:56

about the caffeine itself. It won't be comprehensive

2:58

about any particular beverage. Yeah

3:01

and I'm really interested in it because I have

3:04

really only recently been more

3:06

of a user of

3:08

caffeine because it used to be very like

3:12

even small amounts of it would be too strong

3:14

for me and now I don't know whether it's

3:16

because I'm older or more

3:18

tired all the time. But

3:20

like now it seems to be acceptable

3:23

in small doses and perhaps one

3:25

might even say necessary in small

3:27

doses to

3:29

function properly. And

3:32

so I want to know like why,

3:34

I want to know if like I

3:36

am poisoning my

3:39

body secretly or I know

3:42

I don't expect you to give medical advice

3:44

Alex because you're not an official doctor even

3:46

though you're always wearing that lab coat which

3:48

is a little weird but you know.

3:52

And big frizzy hair and big

3:54

frizzy hair. And that thing like

3:56

the headband that has the reflective

3:58

disc on it. But,

4:02

you know, it's, I am very

4:04

curious about caffeine because it's like,

4:06

how can a substance both make

4:09

me feel so good and then

4:11

at times make me feel so bad?

4:15

Is it a drug? Am I

4:17

high all the time? What's going on? What's going

4:19

on? Diagnose me. Yeah.

4:21

And we will talk all about that in that

4:24

way where we're not doctors, but researched it and

4:26

found out interesting things. I'm so excited. Our

4:29

first fascinating thing about the topic, it's a

4:31

quick set of fascinating numbers and statistics and

4:33

this week that is in a segment called...

4:38

Oh, what is a good podcast of secret cool

4:40

stuff? Sif Pod Pod Cast. Oh,

4:42

listen, that's the numbers we can't get enough. Sif

4:45

Pod Pod Cast. If fun

4:47

information, be something you wish. Sif Pod

4:49

Pod Cast. Then pop in your headphones

4:51

and flap like a fish. Sif Pod

4:54

Pod Cast. Ready? Sif

4:56

Pod Pod Cast. Sif Pod Pod

4:58

Cast. Sif Pod Pod Cast. Sif

5:00

Pod Pod Cast. Sif

5:03

Pod Pod Cast.

5:10

Wow, that was good. It

5:14

almost like a cookie monster. Yeah,

5:17

huh. Now

5:19

I'm trying to remember Muppet Treasure Island and

5:22

if they cross over Cookie Monster from Sesame

5:24

Street because he would make sense on most

5:26

pirate ships. He really would. But he's ravenous

5:28

and has this guttural voice. Right. It

5:31

really works. Doesn't need

5:34

enough vitamin C. Yes,

5:36

true. One

5:39

vegetable dude, come on. Anyway,

5:41

that name was submitted by the Silver Sylvan

5:43

on Discord. What a treat, thank you. We

5:45

have a new name for this every week.

5:47

Please make it as silly and wacky and

5:49

bad as possible. Submit through Discord or to

5:51

[email protected]. And the first number

5:53

this week is at least 1,000 years ago. Wow.

5:58

At least 1,000 years ago. That's

6:00

a lot of years, Alex. It

6:03

is. And that is how

6:05

long ago people in what's now the

6:07

Southwestern United States began

6:09

drinking caffeinated beverages. At

6:12

least a thousand years ago, possibly earlier. And

6:15

that's amazing because it probably involves pretty

6:18

extensive trade networks with other parts of

6:20

the Americas to get the plants and

6:22

get the materials. What

6:24

kinds of plants would be used in

6:26

these old caffeinated

6:28

beverages? Great question,

6:30

because it turns out there's two different ones

6:32

that they leaned on. We'll

6:34

talk about the archaeology in a sec,

6:36

but one of the drinks they had

6:38

is the Mesoamerican hot chocolate that

6:41

we touched on in the past SIF

6:43

about chocolate, because it's also, I think,

6:46

somewhat famous with the Aztecs, better known

6:48

as the Triple Alliance. They

6:50

made an extremely caffeinated hot chocolate

6:52

beverage out of cacao beans. And

6:56

on our credit unions episode, we also talked about

6:58

those beans being a practical form of currency, where

7:01

it was valued as currency and also you

7:03

can make this caffeinated chocolate beverage that people

7:05

like. And I imagine

7:07

it was extremely bitter because this would

7:09

not be like a, this wouldn't be like

7:12

the hot chocolate that you get, the

7:14

Swiss Miss kind where it's actually quite sweet.

7:17

It'd be a very bitter, sort of almost

7:19

like, it almost sounds like a coffee-like drink.

7:22

Yeah, not Swiss Miss, but Tenochtitlan

7:25

Miss or whatever. Yeah, it was

7:27

totally different and really bitter and

7:29

really strong. Yeah. Yeah.

7:31

In order to get that, people in what's

7:34

now places like Arizona and New Mexico were

7:36

trading for it. And

7:38

then their other popular drink was from

7:40

a whole different direction. It's from what's

7:42

now the Southeastern US. It

7:45

was another drink called Black Drink

7:48

is the shorthand name. And

7:50

this was a caffeinated tea-like beverage

7:52

made from the leaves of a

7:54

North American holly plants called

7:57

the Yapon holly. know

8:00

anything about like what it would taste like? Apparently

8:03

it was a relatively smooth flavor

8:05

sort of like many black

8:07

teas around the world. And

8:10

then also when native

8:12

people drank it ritually, they

8:15

would sometimes add things to it

8:17

that are enematic and make you

8:19

vomit. Well, interesting.

8:22

And then like Europeans misunderstood this and

8:25

thought the yapon leaves themselves cause you

8:27

to vomit. So the scientific

8:30

name for this plant is

8:32

now Ilex vomitoria. Oh

8:34

come on guys. Even though it

8:37

doesn't necessarily make you vomit if you drink tea

8:39

from the leaves. Right. So what

8:41

was the purpose of the emetics? Because it

8:43

sounds counterintuitive like you're drinking this drink to

8:45

get the caffeine, but then if you're throwing

8:47

it up, you're not maybe getting as much

8:50

of the caffeine as you would be. Yeah.

8:53

It turns out this was usually drank

8:55

in a ritual way and an occasional

8:57

way. So this was not, I know

9:00

people talk about like a daily ritual of

9:02

caffeine, but this was for special ceremonies. This

9:04

was not something you did all the

9:06

time. It was probably for the metaphorically

9:09

cleansing vibe. I see.

9:11

I see. Making yourself throw

9:13

up in a socially regarded as positive

9:15

way. Socially cleansing,

9:18

which you know, don't

9:20

necessarily, like as

9:22

a doctor of podcasting, I wouldn't

9:24

recommend it, but I

9:27

think only in this very

9:29

specific cultural context. Yeah.

9:32

If you're doing it every day, we'll turn on our

9:34

big headlamp at you furiously and it'll shine you in

9:36

the eyes. We'll get you. Yeah.

9:39

We'll get you. That's what they do. That's

9:41

what those like big reflector discs are for.

9:43

Making patients or making you chase like the

9:45

little bright dot on the floor like we're

9:47

cats. Yeah. And

9:53

Yauponhale, it grows today everywhere from

9:55

Virginia to Florida to central Texas.

9:58

It's still a plant. You can make a catfish. a

10:00

drink out of, but according to

10:02

Smithsonian Smart News, there was an amazing

10:04

study in 2015.

10:07

Archaeologists led by Patricia L. Crown of

10:09

the University of New Mexico examined

10:12

pottery shards everywhere from the

10:14

Mexican state of Chihuahua to

10:16

the US state of Colorado,

10:18

like that whole southwestern US

10:20

northern Mexico. And with

10:22

liquid chromatography mass spectrometry,

10:26

in an incredibly advanced way, they found

10:28

that the pottery shards contained traces of

10:30

both these drinks and both these plants

10:32

that are from different regions

10:35

of the Americas. So it's

10:37

yet another indicator that there was really

10:40

extensive, amazing trading, shipping economies

10:42

between these groups. That's

10:45

incredible. I love research like that,

10:47

where it's like we found a

10:50

shard of a plate and

10:52

we're able to find the

10:54

molecules of the food that

10:56

was on it. It's so

10:58

neat, especially given that a

11:00

lot of the history of

11:03

the Americas has been more

11:05

or less lost, being able

11:07

to kind of reconstruct some

11:09

of that history. It's really,

11:11

really cool. Yeah,

11:13

you could just put it together. I really

11:15

hope, though, I really hope hundreds of

11:17

years from now, though, that this doesn't

11:20

happen with my food because I'll feel

11:22

so judged by future archaeologists. We found

11:25

a shard of something called a

11:27

Tupperware and what appears to be

11:30

just plain pasta with some

11:33

cheese on it. Yeah,

11:36

they're going to be able to determine

11:38

very clearly that I'm a big coffee

11:40

drinker and then they're going to wonder

11:42

about the mutated animated beagle on the

11:44

outside of my mug and who that

11:46

could be and what God, you know.

11:49

It appears he worshiped an entity

11:51

known as Joseph Cool. And

11:58

the next number here is... approximately

12:00

60, approximately 6-0,

12:03

because according to National Geographic,

12:05

about that many different plant

12:07

species produce caffeine in the

12:09

world, about 60 different species.

12:12

So I know a little bit about

12:14

why plants produce caffeine and as

12:17

far as I understand it

12:19

is a defensive weapon against

12:22

insects that would like to

12:24

eat those plants. It just

12:26

so happens that when human beings

12:28

consume it, instead of killing us,

12:31

gives us a cool little buzz. And

12:34

I think that's also the

12:36

case for capsaicin, the spice,

12:38

where that is also a

12:41

plant defense weapon. And when

12:43

we eat it, it just kind of

12:46

burns the crap out of our tongue.

12:48

And we're like, oh you saucy plant,

12:50

you don't understand that human beings are

12:52

perverts and masochists and we

12:55

like that. That's

12:57

all dead on, yeah. On

12:59

our long ago mustard episode, we talked

13:01

about chemicals and mustard plants being the

13:03

spice that we want on Bratwurst, you

13:06

know, like we're all weird as

13:08

humans. And then plants are like, I

13:10

did this for national defense purposes, from

13:12

a plant perspective. What are you doing?

13:15

Like why are you consuming my bio

13:17

weapon in large quantities and going, hmm,

13:20

that's good, Joe. Yeah,

13:24

and this also explains a bunch about

13:27

caffeine. Like it explains why plants all

13:29

over the world can produce it and

13:31

why cultures all over the world have

13:33

probably made caffeinated drinks pretty early on,

13:35

like we found with these folks in

13:37

the southwestern U.S. And

13:41

that also explains why not every plant does

13:43

it, because you could also make stuff that's

13:45

spicy, you can also make mustard, you can

13:47

also do other chemicals for that same insect

13:49

defense purpose. And then

13:52

another amazing thing is a mini

13:54

takeaway number one. Bees seem to be a little bit more expensive

13:56

than they are. to

14:00

enjoy caffeine at their job sort of like

14:02

humans do. Aww, so cute. The

14:04

little bees. Bees like caffeine and nectar. And

14:07

they're like little

14:10

fuzzy bee sweaters with

14:12

their little teeny, tiniest of cup that

14:14

says number one drone just going like,

14:16

gotta go to work, gotta go to

14:18

work. Should

14:21

we just shut down the episode and

14:23

go merchandise on number one drone mug?

14:25

That would really... Right?

14:27

Yeah. Come on. And

14:29

that's like bee themed? Bee themed. And

14:34

patent pending, all

14:36

rights reserved, it's gonna happen.

14:39

Or a shirt that has a little

14:41

bee on it who's got a little

14:43

mug because number one drone. Don't

14:48

buzz to me until I've had my caffeine. Right.

14:54

Don't regurgitate up food we found for

14:56

the queen until I've had my... Nectar?

14:59

Communicate the origin of food sources

15:02

with a wiggle dance before I've

15:04

had my coffee. I'm

15:06

glad wiggle dances will come up. We've

15:09

found that bees benefit from plants

15:11

including caffeine in their nectar and

15:13

really like to have caffeine. There

15:15

was a 2013 study at Newcastle

15:18

University that found that if

15:20

there's low concentrations of caffeine

15:22

and nectar that attracts return

15:24

visits from bees, a 2021

15:26

study suggested caffeine improves bees

15:29

focus and memory when pollinating

15:31

plants. They're just

15:33

like me. It's

15:35

very relatable, yeah. And

15:38

a 2015 study at the University

15:40

of Sussex found that bees accepted

15:43

what they call lower quality food sources.

15:46

Like nectar with less nutrition for bees

15:48

and less of what bees want if

15:51

there's caffeine. That bounces out.

15:53

They're like great. Same. And

15:55

I'm right, very relatable. Yeah. Are

15:58

these... plants potentially

16:01

producing the nectar because

16:04

of the evolutionary benefit

16:07

of having pollinators like

16:09

bees come repeatedly

16:11

for the nectar. Because if you're able

16:13

to get away with – if

16:16

you can produce some caffeine and

16:18

then the nectar maybe is less

16:20

– has fewer sugars

16:22

or something, maybe you

16:25

can produce a cheaper nectar

16:27

in terms of the energy cost

16:30

that bees still really like and want to come

16:32

back for rather than it being, say, like the

16:34

other use of caffeine in plants, which is actually

16:36

a sort of an insect repellent.

16:38

This one is more possibly used to attract bees.

16:44

Exactly. Yeah. Both those uses, they've

16:46

just evolved it over time and

16:49

because of bees' interaction with that nectar,

16:51

one way or another, plants started producing

16:54

it to make that happen. Yeah. Nice.

16:57

That's just so cute. Bees have a little coffee

16:59

shop run by flowers. Yeah.

17:02

Even the cutest part, that University

17:04

of Sussex study, they say that

17:06

they checked out how many waggle

17:08

dances bees perform on plants

17:10

with or without caffeine in the nectar.

17:13

And they say bees did four times

17:16

as many waggle dances if caffeine was

17:18

available. Listen, Gals, I found a great –

17:20

it's called Stock Buzz and it's

17:22

a great place to get your pollens. Oh

17:24

my God, it's very, very good. Let's go.

17:27

Let's go. Come on, ladies. It's

17:29

actually what I do too, like

17:32

when I find a new source

17:34

of caffeine is I do a

17:36

little waggle dance to inform my

17:38

friends and family of its location.

17:43

I researched this when I took myself out

17:45

to a coffee shop to do some internet

17:47

research and I was drinking coffee and I

17:49

had just told somebody that I really like

17:51

to shop Big Mouth Coffee here in Beacon

17:53

and they should come. I'm

17:55

essentially this bee. It was extraordinarily

17:58

me reading about it. So

18:00

I do have to come clean. I

18:03

missed my afternoon dose of coffee

18:06

today, which is really unfortunate. And

18:08

so this episode is making me

18:10

feel extremely jealous of

18:13

these bees. It

18:15

also felt very harmonious, I guess, as

18:18

I was like reading about coffee, drinking

18:20

coffee, reading about coffee, drinking coffee. Like

18:22

it really worked. Yeah. So this might

18:25

spark something in listeners. You might want a

18:28

little cup of something. It is. I

18:30

mean, I think we might talk about

18:32

this, but I believe it is like a mildly

18:35

addictive substance. It's like

18:37

not obviously not

18:39

that dangerous, but it is

18:42

like, I mean, like

18:44

it's the same as sugar, right?

18:46

Sugar is also addictive. It doesn't

18:48

mean it's like gonna kill you

18:50

in the right quantities,

18:52

but it is a

18:54

substance that when you

18:56

talk about it or smell it or look

18:59

at a bag of it or

19:01

a cup of it, it makes you want to have more

19:03

of it. That's a

19:05

perfect segue into the very

19:07

next thing. Yes. According

19:11

to my intricate plans, because

19:14

there's numbers within this, but takeaway

19:16

number two, almost

19:21

every caffeine user has a dependency

19:23

on it. And there's lots

19:25

of argument about whether that qualifies as

19:27

an addiction. It

19:30

turns out it's somewhat distinct from

19:32

addiction to stuff like alcohol, tobacco,

19:34

intravenous drugs. And it has also

19:37

been described as addiction by some

19:39

people. It's oddly kind of

19:41

debated, but the dependency is clear. To

19:44

me, this is probably just my

19:46

own opinion, but it seems like

19:48

something like addiction could be on

19:50

a sliding scale, right? Yeah.

19:53

You could really like video

19:56

games or sugar or chocolate

19:58

or caffeine, right? And

20:01

then when you're deprived of that

20:03

thing, you're like, oh, I really want

20:05

that. Maybe you suffer some physical symptoms

20:07

like headaches, whatnot, but you're not

20:09

like going into

20:12

dangerous withdrawal. I

20:15

guess like video games is a good example, right? Because

20:17

you could be like, I'm addicted to video games because

20:19

like I have to play every day. And

20:21

if I don't, I really miss it. And

20:24

like it's hard for me sometimes to not

20:27

play video games versus

20:29

like say a gambling addiction where

20:31

someone is gambling away

20:33

their entire life savings and they

20:35

cannot stop. I think those are

20:38

both potentially addictions. It's just like,

20:40

okay, that's different, right? Like there

20:43

seems to be some difference in

20:45

scale in terms of addiction. And

20:47

certainly like caffeine is – it

20:50

is just not the same as

20:53

something like heroin in terms of the

20:55

– if you tried to

20:57

cut yourself off of heroin called turkey,

20:59

you could be in

21:01

actual medical danger. That's

21:04

not exactly right, yeah. And so that's

21:06

what we get into in this takeaway

21:08

because I think everyone is broadly familiar

21:10

with the concept that caffeine is habit-firming,

21:13

possibly addictive. And let's talk

21:15

about exactly how because it

21:17

turns out it's on that sliding scale somewhere. Great.

21:21

The super basic thing, caffeine is a

21:23

molecule, and it's a relatively

21:25

large complex molecule. It is

21:28

also accurately described as a drug,

21:30

and it is a psychoactive drug

21:33

because it alters how we think and

21:35

feel, even if it's on a pretty

21:37

low scale that is technically psychoactive, and

21:40

it's likely the most popular psychoactive substance

21:42

on Earth. Yeah,

21:44

that tracks. And

21:46

then it also forms dependency, and

21:49

the specific way that works is chemistry and

21:51

also with the brain because

21:53

this caffeine molecule, its

21:55

structure and its makeup, it closely

21:58

resembles another molecule that's naturally prevalent.

22:00

present in our brains that is

22:02

called adenosine. And

22:04

adenosine and caffeine resemble each other

22:06

so closely. Caffeine

22:08

can slot into our brains receptors for

22:10

adenosine in place of it. Like box

22:13

it out, take up that space. And

22:16

so like adenosine on its own,

22:18

what function does it play in

22:20

the brain? Among

22:22

other things, it makes us a little bit

22:25

less alert in a way that is normal

22:27

and is part of just the regular function

22:29

of the brain. And so

22:31

one reason caffeine makes us feel

22:33

more alert is it's just not

22:35

doing that thing. It's the absence

22:38

of alertness if that makes sense. So

22:41

like right now because I did

22:45

miss my caffeine dose for a

22:47

very petty reason which is that

22:49

it's raining and I was

22:51

like, I don't want to walk in the rain. Which

22:55

was a mistake because Alex

22:57

now has like morphed into

22:59

a cup of coffee. You

23:02

know like in the cartoons were on

23:04

the desert island and they turn into

23:06

hamburgers or hot dogs because the character

23:08

is starving. Alex looks like

23:10

a big talking cup of

23:14

espresso. So

23:16

yeah, I mean I definitely- Yeah, I'm that character

23:18

cuphead of people in other video games. I'm

23:20

just that dude exactly. Yeah, the best thing

23:22

I've got is just being like, hello Katie,

23:24

would you like to drink some flow out

23:26

of my brain? Bees

23:30

around me like a halo. Yeah,

23:34

so I do definitely like when

23:36

I- it's interesting because I think

23:38

like when I start like

23:40

if I don't drink coffee for like a

23:42

week or something I don't notice this as

23:44

much. But when I miss like a day,

23:47

right? Like when I'm normally drinking it every

23:49

day around the same time and then I

23:51

miss a day it's like it just

23:53

I feel in addition to being tired

23:56

it is just this feeling of like

23:58

it's just harder to focus. I'm

24:02

trading off being able to have

24:04

more focus versus like sometimes if

24:06

then I miss my caffeine

24:08

dose or can't drink it for some

24:10

reason then that day I'm gonna feel

24:13

like Greta Garbo languishing

24:15

wearing a silken nightgown

24:17

and I don't know being

24:19

sad about I can't

24:22

think of a co-star of hers but

24:24

let's because I didn't

24:26

have caffeine so I can't think of any

24:28

movies Greta Garbo is in. Come

24:32

on her movies were only 1,000 years

24:34

ago you don't remember those? Yeah, don't remember.

24:37

Greta Garbo in sad

24:39

lady. Especially

24:43

because this is happening on sort of the

24:46

brain level we feel it pretty quickly if

24:48

there's a change in our habit or in

24:50

our consumption. The other main

24:52

effects are that our dopamine

24:54

that we already have works a little

24:56

more effectively and also the

24:59

body gets prompted to generate more adrenaline

25:01

and so the caffeine itself is not

25:04

like a molecule of energy but it

25:06

causes processes that do energy stuff for

25:09

us. Right. And also mood like

25:11

more dopamine we are just a little bit

25:13

happier for a reason we can't put a

25:15

finger on. Yeah because

25:17

I really only recently started

25:19

trying espresso and caffeine in

25:22

general because

25:24

I had always assumed I

25:26

could not handle it because when I drink too

25:28

much of it like I felt terrible like my

25:30

heart would be pounding like I would get kind

25:32

of sweaty but then I

25:34

through accident found out that it was

25:36

the amount of caffeine so that if

25:38

I just had the amount of caffeine

25:40

that's in like a standard espresso

25:43

and nothing more that that

25:45

is fine and so it's like I

25:48

had this like interesting realization of like

25:51

oh this is why everyone drinks coffee as adults

25:53

okay I get it now it's

25:56

like oh right right cuz like this it's

25:59

a drug. All right, I get it. Yeah, it's

26:01

good. Yeah.

26:05

And it's, it's such an interesting

26:07

drug to talk about because it

26:09

is both absolutely a drug and

26:13

low on the scale of the drugs

26:15

that various humans are into in terms

26:17

of addiction and the forcefulness of those

26:19

effects. There have been

26:21

a lot of pretty wild media claims about

26:23

how addictive this can be. And

26:26

one of the wildest was in 1994. In

26:29

1994, scientists did a new

26:32

study of caffeine dependency and how addictive it

26:34

is. Partly because it's

26:36

been so clear this forms of

26:38

dependency. Science has been relatively

26:40

slow to officially study it. Like

26:43

why bother? We all kind of know. Yeah. But

26:45

there was a big study of it in 1994. And

26:48

then here is how the New York Times wrote it up.

26:51

The lead of the article was researchers

26:53

have confirmed for the first time the

26:55

widely held belief that some people are

26:57

addicted to caffeine in the

26:59

same way that others are

27:01

addicted to cigarettes, alcohol, or

27:04

intravenous drugs. End quote.

27:06

Yeah. Like it's not heroin

27:08

guys. No. Come on. No.

27:10

So like this bothers and this isn't

27:12

stuff that just happened in the nineties.

27:15

Like this, I think is a pervasive

27:17

problem. What's medical research reporting. I

27:20

wish everyone could like take a free

27:22

course on how to skim through

27:24

a scientific paper and look for

27:26

all of the key things in the

27:29

paper. Cause like who, who is the

27:31

study population? Right? Is the, is it

27:33

mice? Did they do this on mice

27:35

or rats? And if they did, don't

27:37

worry too

27:39

much about its effects on humans. Like

27:42

it's, it's, I'm not to say that

27:44

it's not to say that research on

27:46

mice and rats isn't relevant

27:48

or important. It is, but you

27:51

can't say just from a study

27:53

on mice or rats that like,

27:55

therefore it is this way in

27:58

humans, like if a rat. presses

28:00

a button to get caffeine just as much

28:02

as it presses a button to get heroin.

28:05

That does not mean it's equally addictive in

28:07

humans. It just, it is just

28:09

not true. Anyways,

28:11

yeah. And to

28:13

give the New York Times a little credit, if

28:16

people read the entire tiny print of

28:18

the rest of the story, they

28:21

did include a bunch of caveats that were

28:23

in the scientific paper. For

28:25

one thing, one of the editors of

28:27

this journal, Dr. Richard M. Glass, a

28:30

Northwestern University psychiatrist, he

28:32

told the Times that he was really

28:34

concerned that this study would get used

28:36

and exploited by the tobacco industry to

28:38

try to like trivialize nicotine addiction and

28:40

sell more cigarettes. So he was like,

28:42

please don't report it the way you

28:45

could, and he doesn't know they're reporting it that way

28:47

like at the front of the article. And

28:51

then also the authors of the study made

28:53

a point of saying that the hundreds of

28:55

thousands of deaths each year from stuff like

28:57

alcohol and tobacco are very different

29:00

and that caffeine is quote extremely

29:02

benign. Yeah. They

29:04

were like, it's night and day, don't report it the way

29:06

that we don't know you're about to report it. And

29:11

yeah, and one of the biggest reasons that people have

29:14

pushed back on the description of caffeine

29:16

as addictive is the mildness of the

29:18

withdrawal. If you step it down, if

29:20

you stop. Apparently

29:22

for most people, withdrawal symptoms ends

29:24

after between seven to twelve days

29:27

and basically nobody experiences

29:30

anything dangerous from stepping

29:32

down or ending their caffeine intake unless

29:34

they had some really

29:36

severe level of consuming it

29:39

going in. Yeah,

29:41

I mean like the only symptom I'm

29:43

experiencing right now is feeling a little

29:46

tired and also Alex looking

29:48

like a anthropomorphic cup

29:50

of espresso. But other than

29:52

that, I'm fine. Yeah.

29:55

If I turn into the Starbucks mermaid,

29:57

see a doctor. See a doctor. Go.

30:01

I'm Dr. Starbucks mermaid.

30:06

Remember the old, because I think they changed

30:08

it, but it used to be the full

30:11

on mermaid and then she had the two

30:13

tails and she's kind of

30:15

doing the splits, like the old Starbucks logo. I

30:18

always thought that was weird. Yeah,

30:20

apparently the original original one when it was

30:22

a local Seattle shop had actual breasts and

30:24

was sort of... It

30:27

had boobies. Like sexual, but... It

30:29

had boobies. They really sanitized it.

30:32

I'm sad that they can't bring back

30:34

booby coffee. Just

30:37

call it double shot coffee and

30:39

the logo is just boobies. No

30:42

mermaid even, just boobs. Our

30:45

commercial ideas this week are so good. They're

30:47

too good. We do have to make... We're

30:49

now a business. We do have to make that mug. It's

30:52

really good. With like some bees on

30:54

it. And

30:56

then also another way caffeine dependency

30:58

is interesting is not only

31:00

is it less extreme than most drugs, it's

31:03

also distinct from the human relationship to

31:05

sugar. Because

31:08

according to the Cleveland Clinic, many people

31:10

will feel a dependency type need to

31:12

eat sugar. I know I personally have

31:14

that if I don't. But

31:17

that's usually a dependency on added

31:19

sugar. And the big

31:21

difference is that there is a dietary

31:24

need for some sugar in the human

31:26

body. We need some amount of

31:28

it. But caffeine is completely

31:30

elective. If you never consumed caffeine

31:32

ever again, your body would get

31:35

enough nutrients to function totally healthily.

31:38

Yeah, the sugar thing is interesting because

31:40

the reason we're, I think,

31:42

addicted to sugar is that the

31:45

environment that we lived in when

31:47

we were pre-humans and early humans

31:49

is like the

31:51

you wouldn't find like a

31:54

bag of Skittles

31:56

lying on the

31:58

forest floor. So

32:00

like when you would find something that's

32:02

really rich why I don't go to forests. Come

32:04

on. Come on Make what the Skittles for us It's

32:08

why like when you would find something that's

32:10

really really dense and sugars It's like, okay,

32:12

I should eat this because this is like

32:14

this is a really good source of sugar

32:17

I might not find something like this. It's

32:19

relatively rare and so we

32:21

we were not prepared

32:24

for 7-eleven

32:26

when we had first evolved like

32:28

that was not That's

32:31

it. That's a tough one to avoid because

32:33

you can't just like you need

32:36

sugar from normal stuff Yeah,

32:39

exactly. And it it just really jumps out

32:41

to me because Caffeine and

32:43

added sugar are definitely my two biggest

32:45

dependencies as a person and they come

32:47

from totally different paths Like

32:49

one is that there's a dietary need

32:51

for sugar and that's been sort of

32:54

manipulated and culturally exploited And

32:56

the other is just we came up with a party drug

32:58

and I'm into it. Yeah, it's such

33:00

different paths for those both

33:03

very ordinary things because also At

33:06

least in the US like nobody would stop me and

33:08

check if I'm okay If I'm having a candy bar

33:10

or a cup of coffee, like it's just what we

33:12

do. It's it's yeah into it

33:14

It's available cheaply everywhere. I

33:17

mean it makes sense because it is not

33:20

It is a drug that does not like Impair

33:23

you greatly unless you know, of course

33:25

like certain specific circumstances.

33:27

Certainly it could could be a

33:30

problem. I hate to Disappoint

33:34

Mcgruff the crime dog, but I'm not just

33:36

like anti drug Just

33:38

for the sake of being anti drug.

33:40

I think the drug has to have

33:43

some proven very negative effect and so

33:46

like stuff like caffeine

33:49

or even like Cannabis

33:51

right like I personally do not

33:54

partake in the old devil's lettuce

33:57

just for personal reasons I have like

34:00

OCD and so I do not smoke

34:02

pot because I think it would potentially

34:05

cause problems. But like

34:07

in terms of the general population, it's

34:09

like, you know, certain drugs are not

34:11

like inherently bad. There

34:13

are drugs that will 100% mess

34:17

you up and with a lot of

34:19

use will start to impair your

34:22

brain's ability to naturally produce

34:24

neurotransmitters that are important for

34:27

you having a functional

34:29

life. So it's just the fact that something's

34:31

a drug does not really tell me much

34:34

about whether it's good or bad for you.

34:37

Yeah, and it's such a thing where everybody responds

34:39

at least a little bit differently to these things

34:41

too. Like I can

34:44

have alcohol and then other people have a

34:46

genetic situation where they shouldn't because it'll just

34:48

be unstoppable. And turns

34:50

out that we're beginning to explore

34:52

whether caffeine is a little bit

34:54

like that for a small subset

34:56

of the population. And

34:59

this is new and not solid

35:01

I guess yet, but there's a team

35:03

at Johns Hopkins led by Dr. Maggie

35:06

Sweeney and starting in

35:08

the mid 2010s they started examining whether

35:10

there's something called a caffeine use disorder

35:13

that could be diagnosable and a

35:16

psychological possibly genetic problem, not just that

35:18

you drink a lot of caffeine. And

35:22

based on that team's findings, the

35:25

publishers of the DSM-5 psychiatric

35:27

manual, they've noted caffeine use

35:29

disorder as quote, a condition

35:31

for further study. They

35:34

haven't added it, but there's some people

35:36

at least starting to explore like, has

35:38

there been a deeper issue for a

35:40

few people within our really global

35:42

culture of drinking caffeine all the time? Like

35:44

have there been a few people who truly

35:46

can't stop and need help and are

35:48

having it at an extreme level? I'd

35:51

almost be surprised if there wasn't, right? Like,

35:53

I mean, it seems like for almost any

35:55

other substance or activity

35:58

that causes a reward. loop

36:01

in your brain, right? Like from

36:03

playing video games to sugar to

36:05

gambling, it's like anything

36:07

that is highly popular and

36:09

for the majority of the

36:12

population does not necessarily cause

36:14

significant problems except

36:16

for maybe sugar. Maybe we're all suffering

36:18

from sugar. But

36:21

almost all of these substances or

36:24

activities that could be described as

36:26

quote-unquote addicting really do

36:29

impact some people in a

36:31

serious way. It seems like

36:33

that would make sense, right? Like we're

36:35

a very like heterogenic population of human

36:37

beings and so a substance

36:40

or activity that causes the reward

36:42

system of your brain to just

36:44

like start partying, like of course

36:47

it's gonna potentially cause problems for

36:49

a certain subset of people. Yeah

36:52

and it could so easily just be going

36:54

on in the background of our broader culture

36:56

where there's a coffee shop or gas station

36:58

with coffee on every corner and so you

37:00

know how would you know it just looks

37:02

like a person getting coffee whatever. Yeah and

37:05

also the good news about it is you

37:07

know we don't know because they need to find out more

37:09

but it does seem to be a truly small percentage of

37:12

the population if there's a group that has

37:14

that potential caffeine use disorder.

37:16

Like it's not. We gotta shut it down.

37:18

We gotta shut down every coffee shop until we

37:20

figure out what the hell is going on. Then

37:22

while they're

37:25

shut down we launch our chain of boob coffee

37:27

and take over the market. We'll

37:29

sneak up on them. Yeah yeah I

37:31

think we should just call it boob

37:34

coffee and it should be like an

37:36

underground speakeasy for coffee. The

37:38

password is anything you say at all

37:40

because we want to sell you coffee. And

37:44

the logo is a B just with

37:47

a set of nice boobs. And

37:52

folks we have many more numbers for

37:54

you and then one relatively decaffeinated takeaway.

37:56

We'll get to that after a short

37:59

break. I am legit

38:01

kind of sleepy because I have

38:03

my coffee. Because it was rainy.

38:06

Too lazy to go outside. That

38:10

was a nice story for how addictive or not this is. Like

38:13

we really wanted to bless the weather. Like,

38:15

okay. Yeah,

38:18

it's waning. Like

38:20

in Transpot, I guess they're like, I don't know, it's raining.

38:23

I won't have heroin today. It's cool. Yeah. Hey

38:37

folks, I have a quick message about something nice

38:39

you can do for yourself if you want to.

38:41

This is exclusive to members of Maximum Fun and

38:43

to people who support this show directly. And it's

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something I like to do for them. It's also

38:48

just hard to announce that this exists, so I'm

38:50

just bringing it up here real quick. If you

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would like a greeting for a listening party, I

38:54

would love to do that. Here's

38:56

what a listening party is. At least

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39:01

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Or sign up for the newsletter

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at maximumfun.org/ newsletter so they don't

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miss it. Otherwise, checkmate.

40:40

It's hard to explain what happens on Jordan

40:43

Jesse Go. So, I had my kids do

40:45

it. Saying swear words. Saying swear words. Yeah,

40:47

um, bad jokes. Bad

40:50

jokes? Bad jokes. Maybe it's

40:52

like you tell people that

40:55

you're gonna interview them and

40:57

then you just stay

40:59

there like really quiet and

41:02

try and creep them out. It's

41:05

just really boring. Because

41:07

of Jordan, right? Not me. Because

41:09

of both of you. Oh. Subscribe to

41:12

Jordan Jesse Go. A comedy show for

41:15

grownups. Well,

41:17

and folks, we are back with many more numbers

41:19

because we did some takeaways already. And

41:21

the next number is 85%. 85%.

41:26

That's a recent industry survey

41:28

estimate of how many Americans

41:30

consume caffeine daily. Wow.

41:32

And if anything that might be low, there's a

41:35

more recent estimate from the Mayo Clinic of 90%.

41:40

So, we think, you know, the majority of Americans and then

41:42

in many other countries too are consuming

41:44

some kind of caffeine every day. Bringing

41:47

it back to be all about me, which is

41:49

my favorite thing to do. Before

41:52

I started drinking caffeine, I would basically

41:54

almost always need to take like a

41:56

short nap in the middle of the

41:58

day. I have

42:00

caffeine. I may or may not need to

42:02

nap. But

42:04

like I always felt weird for that word. It's like,

42:06

what am I like a kindergartener? Why do I always

42:08

need like a nap in the middle of the day?

42:12

But maybe it's just normal

42:14

to need that

42:16

unless you are on caffeine.

42:18

I'm this is like my

42:20

conspiracy theory is that we

42:22

have like, like, if

42:25

you don't drink caffeine, you

42:27

need a nap. I

42:32

read a few different things discussing

42:35

the idea that caffeination is now

42:37

what we perceive to be regular

42:39

human consciousness and functioning. Right.

42:41

Just because so many people have it every

42:43

day. Like we think that's how most people

42:45

are. And we think somebody's an

42:47

outlier if they don't elect to have this

42:50

drug. Right. Exactly. This

42:52

is this is this is kind of what

42:54

I'm saying, which is like, given that we

42:56

are podcasters, freelancers, I do have the luxury

42:59

to kind of pick my own schedule and

43:01

take a nap in the middle of the

43:03

day if I want, which is an enormous

43:05

privilege. And a lot of people do

43:07

not have that option. I cannot

43:09

just decide like I would like to take, you

43:12

know, a quick, like little 50 minute

43:15

nap, please. And

43:17

so it's like, well, what am I going to do when I'm tired

43:19

at my job? Well, I'm going to have another cup of coffee

43:21

or another cup of tea or something.

43:24

And so it seems like this has

43:26

just become the normal like we expect

43:29

human beings to have a consistent energy

43:32

level throughout the day and you

43:34

make it happen through caffeine. And so

43:36

I'm so suspicious of this because like

43:38

I wonder, I don't know if it's

43:40

necessarily bad to have caffeine instead of

43:43

an app, but like, is it normal

43:45

for us to be like, yes, like from the time

43:47

you wake up in the morning to the time you

43:49

go to sleep at night, you

43:52

should just be pumped to work for

43:54

X company and not need a nap.

43:58

I'm a nap. I'm a nap radical. normal

44:01

is something we construct like whether it's

44:03

normal or not it is standard right

44:05

now in pretty much every country in

44:07

the world and yes and then the

44:09

United States this was an industry survey

44:11

but they they sampled more than 37,000 people

44:15

so that's a pretty good yeah and

44:17

that's a pretty good amount yeah they

44:19

found about 85% consumed

44:21

caffeine daily in particular

44:23

the demographic of 50 to 64

44:26

year olds was the highest on this

44:29

and they found older demos primarily drink

44:31

coffee younger demos more tea and soda

44:34

that is surprising oh well

44:36

not the soda I guess but it's

44:38

surprising to me that like tea is

44:41

drunk more by younger people yeah I

44:44

think of tea is like an older more

44:46

sophisticated person drink yeah

44:48

in the United States he feels

44:50

like a little more of a conscious choice

44:53

and a style and a vibe like

44:55

there's a famous article from the onion

44:58

where the headline is just fancy man

45:00

enjoys tea that's it it's there's

45:03

not a country's word to use the default

45:05

caffeine but but here we're like ooh somebody's

45:07

in a false sweater or like reading a

45:09

book you know I do

45:13

I do like tea I and this tracks

45:15

with me actually because I only

45:18

started drinking like

45:20

coffee like recently in my

45:23

30s whereas I used to drink

45:25

tea when I was younger because coffee was like

45:27

it just was bitter and yucky in my

45:31

20s I was like gross coffee

45:33

yucky give me some tea we're

45:36

so aligned my progression was co-classic

45:39

tea coffee and like over about

45:41

a decade yeah yeah my progression

45:43

was skittles tea and then coffee

45:48

co-classic sort of a brown skittle

45:51

of the cup you know

45:54

liquidy skittle yeah yeah

45:58

And the other thing here next number. Is

46:00

more than twelve percent. And.

46:03

Is another survey number it's from a

46:05

trade journal cold Beverage Industry Be found

46:07

that there was a more than twelve

46:09

percent increase in sales of energy drinks.

46:12

From. Twenty Twenty One to Twenty Twenty

46:14

Two. Most the last several years there's

46:16

been a large increase like that, an

46:19

energy drink sales the Mayo Clinic with

46:21

their estimate of ninety percent of the

46:23

population drinking caffeine daily they suggest that

46:26

that say they increase and just overall

46:28

number of people who have a damn

46:30

the U S is energy drinks that

46:33

that's reached a few more people, especially

46:35

teenagers and also people grabbing energy shots

46:37

at convenience type businesses. Yeah.

46:40

Another number here. The number is

46:42

one thousand One hundred pounds. Which.

46:45

Is almost five hundred kilograms. One thousand,

46:47

one hundred pounds. Sounds. Like

46:49

a good egg. Good amount of beans.

46:52

put my espresso. This. Is

46:54

the amount of year by must say.

46:57

That was shipped to the Cats higher

46:59

Twenty Twenty Two Men's Soccer World Cup

47:02

just by the Argentina Men's soccer team.

47:04

Wow. Just Leo Macys team that won

47:06

the competition. They brought one thousand one

47:08

hundred pounds of Yerba Might say they

47:11

know it's up to the Middle East.

47:13

They know it's up. To

47:15

a day know what to prioritize

47:17

that? That's that's cool. So that's

47:20

like that. It's a typist t,

47:22

right? that's likely highly caffeinated. Yeah

47:25

this is a centuries old caffeinated drink

47:27

and South America people started making it

47:29

before the Colombian exchange and it's It's

47:31

like a T I you may get

47:33

from the ground up and dried up

47:35

leaves of a small evergreen tree that

47:37

is named your but much. Have

47:40

you? ever? have you ever tried it? I've

47:43

had like the Us version I never

47:45

been to South America would love to

47:47

have that. the meantime there because it's

47:50

all over South America was first made

47:52

by that Guarani people of modern Paraguay.

47:54

But. I I've had like a kind

47:56

and a bottle at a that usually

47:58

has like South America. and flags on

48:01

it and it's not commonly available in

48:03

the US but it is here for

48:05

sure. I should try it if

48:07

I find it. It can

48:09

be hard to find certain things in Italy but

48:12

I finally after like days,

48:15

days Alex of searching found

48:19

a store that has kombucha,

48:22

the fermented tea kombucha. Oh

48:24

okay, yeah. Which is not, it actually

48:26

does have a little bit of caffeine because

48:28

it's usually the tea it's fermented from has caffeine

48:31

in it but it's really not, it's a very

48:33

low amount so it probably, it's not, it doesn't

48:35

really have much of an impact in terms of,

48:37

I don't think you can really get much

48:39

from the caffeine. That's

48:42

such another good indicator of the

48:44

whole earth is checking out each

48:46

other's regional caffeine drinks. Like

48:48

these keep spreading, people keep being like I can also

48:50

have this, you know, not the

48:52

kombucha is such a caffeine primary thing but.

48:55

It's more of a probiotic. Yeah like

48:57

in Yerba Mate another number here is 2.18

49:00

billion dollars worth of BUS. That's

49:04

the global 2023 sales of Yerba

49:06

Mate. Wow. And that's a relatively

49:09

recent phenomenon. It was not well

49:11

known outside of South America until the last

49:13

few decades. Do you think

49:15

caffeine could help us achieve world

49:17

peace if we just like instead

49:20

of fighting with each other, just

49:23

like had a big, basically a big swap

49:25

meet where it's like here's

49:27

my caffeinated beverage and here's my caffeinated

49:29

beverage and we'll swap it, we'll get those

49:31

good caffeine, dopamine rushes

49:33

and then just not kill

49:36

each other. We

49:38

should give a Nobel Peace Prize to

49:40

whoever runs that meeting and gives everybody

49:42

the right amount because it's so that

49:44

they wear like one cup of

49:47

coffee, feeling good, two cups of coffee, feeling great,

49:49

three cups, everyone's out to get me, you know,

49:51

like it's such a flip

49:53

from feeling good to paranoia. Bombs are flying.

49:57

Yeah, don't talk to me until...

50:00

don't try to arrange a treaty with

50:02

me until I've had my

50:04

coffee. Yeah.

50:08

And there is, there is oddly a weird thing

50:11

where the New York Times

50:13

and JSTOR daily are both sources for

50:15

Yerba Mate stuff here. Cause they talk

50:17

about specifically in the world of soccer

50:19

layers, getting each other into Yerba Mate

50:21

cause they have South American friends on

50:23

their teams. And then also

50:25

Argentina was not the only team to

50:27

haul hundreds of pounds of

50:30

this to cutter. The team from Uruguay

50:32

brought over 500 pounds. And

50:35

they also brought a team mascot character.

50:38

His name is Botija and

50:41

it's a guy in a big mascot suit

50:43

that looks like their thermos of Yerba Mate,

50:45

but with a cartoon face. That's that

50:48

like a Yerba Mate mascot. I

50:51

feel like this, I dunno,

50:53

this, I

50:55

feel so much kinship with the soccer

50:57

team, despite the fact that I do

50:59

not follow soccer. The fact

51:01

that we both apparently want to

51:04

see a giant anthropomorphic

51:06

version of the

51:08

caffeinated beverage that we drink. It

51:10

just goes to show you, we're all, we're all

51:13

the same deep down human beings. We all just

51:15

want to see our caffeinated

51:17

beverage in personified form dancing

51:20

around and inviting us to drink out of

51:23

their heads. One world. One

51:25

world. While we're at a

51:27

rapid fire set of several numbers, National

51:30

Geographic says Yerba Mate is only

51:32

a bit less caffeinated than coffee.

51:34

There's about 80 milligrams

51:36

of caffeine per cup. Mayo

51:39

Clinic and the USDA are the other sources

51:41

for these numbers. And eight

51:43

ounce cup of coffee is about 96 milligrams

51:46

of caffeine. Black tea

51:48

is about half that 47 milligrams. Green

51:51

tea down to 28 milligrams. Soda

51:54

about 22 milligrams. And

51:57

then an eight ounce cup of

51:59

hot chocolate. less than 8

52:01

milligrams. So a little, not

52:03

a lot, even in that. And

52:06

how much was your bamate? It's

52:08

about 80. So I like

52:10

five-sixth of a cup of coffee,

52:13

approximately. Okay, yeah. By volume. Oh,

52:16

and then one more. The brands vary,

52:18

but energy shots can have

52:20

more than two cups of coffee's worth of

52:22

caffeine in just two ounces of liquid. They're

52:24

really, really concentrated. Oof. And

52:27

jumping to one last number for the main show,

52:29

the number is September 2012. September 2012. That

52:34

is when the Church of Jesus Christ

52:36

of Latter-day Saints made

52:38

an announcement about church doctrine regarding

52:40

caffeine. Oh, yeah.

52:42

Okay, yes. I'm super interested in

52:44

this. And

52:49

they're often called the LDS Church or referred

52:51

to as Mormons. There's

52:53

minor distinctions with all of that that

52:55

is a separate podcast, I think. So

52:57

folks just bear with us. But the

52:59

official LDS Church, according

53:02

to the Salt Lake Tribune, the LDS

53:04

posted an announcement on their website in

53:06

September 2012 saying, quote,

53:08

the church does not prohibit the use

53:10

of caffeine. Great. You're

53:13

allowed. I'm not a religious

53:15

person. I think that

53:17

religion and spirituality can perform

53:19

a very important service in

53:21

terms of people's lives and

53:23

communities. But I

53:25

am confused when doctrine changes because

53:28

like I didn't I

53:32

again, I'm an ignorant heathen. So

53:34

I may not I may not

53:36

get get it. But like, does

53:39

God change his mind? Or

53:41

is it like we misunderstood God

53:43

like we thought God said no

53:46

caffeine, but really what he said

53:48

was be nice to

53:50

each other and don't

53:53

fight too bad because I

53:55

love all my children. But

53:57

then we heard like coffee is bad.

54:00

Like, what's sort of the explanation for

54:02

the change in doctrine? What's

54:05

happening here is there's the Book of

54:07

Mormon and then a section

54:09

of that called Doctrine and Covenants, and

54:12

that's all driven by the writings of Joseph Smith.

54:14

So it's a prophecy but a modern prophecy.

54:17

And there's some health code stuff

54:20

in that that prohibits tobacco, prohibits

54:22

alcohol, prohibits the overconsumption

54:24

of meat. You can have meat, just

54:26

don't overdo it. I mean, good

54:29

advice. Right, that's a good idea. The

54:32

meat sweats are a one-way ticket to

54:35

H-E-double toothpicks. These

54:38

barbecue ribs are feeling pretty psychoactive to

54:40

me, five-star review of Barbecue Place. And

54:45

then another part of it involved a

54:48

prohibition against something called hot

54:50

drinks. And

54:52

the vagueness of that statement is what

54:54

they're clarifying. You can see how

54:56

there would be clarification needed, right? So is

54:59

cold brew okay then? Exactly.

55:02

People over time interpreted that to mean

55:04

a prohibition against caffeine, even though

55:07

the words are hot drinks. Hot

55:09

drink. And then from

55:11

there, the LDS Church clarified this.

55:14

They said that the prohibition against

55:16

hot drinks, quote, does not go

55:18

beyond tea and coffee. Okay.

55:21

And then they also further updated it the

55:24

next day on their website. They made another

55:26

change that said, quote, the church revelation spelling

55:28

out health practices does not mention the use

55:31

of caffeine. And

55:33

so broadly, they seem to be pretty clear

55:36

on no coffee, no tea, but

55:38

this was widely interpreted as approving

55:40

soda and approving some other things.

55:42

How about iced tea and

55:45

iced coffee? And it's

55:47

still confusing because of all the cold tea and

55:49

coffee you mentioned that is not hot. Such

55:52

fascinating doctrine clarification because

55:55

it seems pretty clearly on board with soda.

55:58

And in 2017. Brigham

56:00

Young University began offering caffeinated soda

56:02

in their food service system, possibly

56:05

because of this recent announcement. They

56:08

should titrate that in like

56:10

slowly, like a college campus

56:12

of young Mormons, and if

56:14

you suddenly caffeinate them all

56:16

really quickly, that to me

56:18

seems like a dangerous situation.

56:21

I don't know that they would leave room for

56:23

Jesus during their school dances if you gave them

56:26

too much caffeine. I'm

56:28

now reminded of one of my favorite caffeine stories

56:30

about myself, which is before I was a coffee

56:32

drinker and only drank tea, I tried

56:34

to order just an interesting tea drink that

56:36

they could add shots of espresso to. And

56:40

the barista was like, do you want a shot in

56:42

this? And I said no, but they heard two. And

56:46

then a few minutes later, I noticed the

56:49

ceiling was moving. I was like, hmm. Yeah.

56:52

Yeah. And they'd hear the

56:54

baby crawl on the ceiling and go

56:56

like, would you like one shot or

56:59

two? Yeah, pretty much. And

57:01

I was like, if that's moving, I

57:03

should check in with them. And I talked to them. They were like, oh,

57:05

I thought you wanted two shots. I was like, I see. OK. I'm

57:08

going to run home on foot. Have

57:11

you heard of like, are we going

57:13

to talk about this or in the

57:15

bonus or whatever? But like there's that

57:18

drink from Panera, the lemonade

57:20

that is actually extremely caffeine.

57:23

It's definitely caffeinated. And you should

57:25

be careful with. We touched on it

57:27

on a past episode. And there's nothing new. Yeah.

57:30

But the charged lemonade from Panera. Yes. There's

57:32

a lemonade from Panera that is

57:34

charged lemonade. It has caffeine in

57:36

it. But it's unclear, I think

57:39

sometimes to people that it is

57:41

so highly caffeinated. I don't

57:43

know if it's like confirmed that the

57:45

drink itself like caused the medical events

57:47

in people, but like they will drink

57:49

it. And then shortly after

57:51

have a serious medical event

57:54

because like, for instance,

57:56

someone who like should not be having

57:58

caffeine and didn't know like that. there

58:00

was caffeine in it because it's lemonade. And

58:03

it's not just like... It sneaks up on

58:05

you. Because it's like it's not just that

58:07

it's like a little bit of caffeine. It's

58:09

like extremely caffeinated. Like, can I look up

58:11

the number for... Oh,

58:15

my God. So a large 30 ounce

58:18

mango yuzu citrus charged lemonade contains

58:20

390 milligrams of caffeine. That's

58:26

OK. So that's like four cups of coffee.

58:28

Geez. And maybe a little bit more than that. Oh,

58:31

my God. Well,

58:33

that's too much for someone who doesn't know

58:36

it's there. Panera,

58:39

what's going on with you guys?

58:41

Like what? You

58:44

said 390, right? 390 milligrams. Yeah.

58:46

That according to CBS. Yeah.

58:48

Four cups. Yeah. According to CBS

58:50

News dot com, like the FDA

58:53

recommends no more than 400 milligrams of caffeine.

58:58

This one drink falls just

59:00

under that. So like if

59:02

you have two, you're having

59:04

roughly double the amount of caffeine

59:06

the FDA recommends an adult human

59:08

being consumed in a day. That

59:12

seems... I'm

59:14

not a lawyer or a caffeine law

59:17

expert, but that seems a little

59:20

irresponsible. Yeah. And

59:22

so so the good news for these BYU students

59:24

is they've probably like heard of Pepsi. So when

59:27

it's on the machine, they're like, I know that

59:29

has a dragon at all. Right. And

59:31

what I'm saying is BYU

59:33

students like just ease into

59:35

it, kids. Like don't

59:37

don't go to Panera and get

59:40

the charged lemonade, even though that

59:42

sounds like that. Like in

59:44

terms of doctrine, it's probably safe in

59:46

terms of your your pure

59:49

little bodies. No, like

59:51

don't. And

59:56

this whole Mormon story, it's

59:58

it has been kind of a Takeaway, we'll give it

1:00:01

the Takeaway header here to finish the

1:00:03

main show, because Takeaway number three, the

1:00:08

Mormon Church might have clarified its

1:00:11

stance on caffeine due

1:00:13

to the national prominence of Mitt

1:00:15

Romney. That

1:00:18

website statement, it was September 2012, and

1:00:20

they didn't say so, but that's

1:00:22

right in the thick of a

1:00:24

very close election contest between President

1:00:26

Barack Obama and challenger Mitt Romney.

1:00:30

That election was perceived as very close

1:00:32

until less than two months

1:00:34

before election day. There was leaked

1:00:36

footage of Romney saying 47% of

1:00:38

Americans are freeloaders. In

1:00:40

hindsight, that pretty much ended his campaign. It

1:00:44

turns out he privately asked his staff if

1:00:46

he should resign and let Chris Christie or

1:00:48

Rob Portman be the nominee. Until

1:00:52

then, the US said, okay, what if

1:00:54

Mitt Romney's president? Let's just think about it. One

1:00:57

of the notable things about that would have been he

1:00:59

would have been the first Mormon person to hold the

1:01:01

office of president. What

1:01:04

were people worried he would like illegalize

1:01:06

caffeine? There were

1:01:08

people saying, what does the president's

1:01:10

personal life mean for policy? They wondered about

1:01:12

drug policy because people asked

1:01:15

him, hey, not to be weird, but you're

1:01:17

Mormon. What do you think of all

1:01:19

of the drugs compared to Mormon policy? Not

1:01:21

to be weird, but you are Mormon.

1:01:26

It's a little weird the way we are to all

1:01:28

candidates, for sure. It's weird and it's what we do.

1:01:32

People found out, hey, wow, Mitt

1:01:34

Romney does not drink caffeine. There's

1:01:37

also an interesting wrinkle where Romney enjoys

1:01:39

the coffee flavor of ice cream. I

1:01:42

don't even know why he brought that up to anybody, but

1:01:45

that's just a cool thing. He

1:01:48

and his wife, Ann, enjoy the caffeine-free diet

1:01:50

coke, which is the kind they make for

1:01:52

lots of people, not just Mormons. This

1:01:55

was news in a way it hadn't been

1:01:57

for the first time. We've

1:01:59

had Mormons. senators and governors and cabinet

1:02:01

secretaries. Mitt Romney's father was

1:02:03

governor of Michigan and then Nixon's cabinet. Like

1:02:05

there are Mormons in public life. But

1:02:08

it is pretty clear, pretty certain

1:02:10

that the Mormon church did this

1:02:13

clarification because Mitt Romney's

1:02:15

prominence made people wonder what Mormon steel

1:02:17

is with caffeine. And then many other

1:02:20

questions about some also like hurtful myths

1:02:22

about Mormons too. There was just a

1:02:24

lot more attention to it. Yeah,

1:02:27

I mean, there's a lot to criticize

1:02:29

Mitt Romney for,

1:02:32

but like, I do think it is

1:02:35

weird that every time there's like

1:02:37

a president, it's like, well, what's

1:02:40

this person's religion? Like people were freaking

1:02:42

out about JFK being the first Catholic

1:02:44

president and like, oh, is he gonna

1:02:46

like be more loyal to the Pope

1:02:48

than he is going to be to

1:02:50

the US? And I feel like the

1:02:53

rubric should just be like, hey, do

1:02:55

you like believe in separation of church

1:02:57

and state? Like, it's just

1:02:59

someone who privately practices a religion. They're like,

1:03:01

yeah, absolutely. I believe in separation of church

1:03:03

and state. And it's a credible thing that

1:03:05

they're saying then you know, I don't know,

1:03:08

I think people could be more normal

1:03:10

about it. Yeah, exactly.

1:03:12

And, and it really

1:03:15

is interesting how it pushed this tiny

1:03:17

sea change and what I'm sure everybody,

1:03:19

including Mormons would say is not a

1:03:21

major part of the faith, but but

1:03:23

they it's, you know, they were like,

1:03:25

okay, everybody heard about Mitt. This is

1:03:27

what we actually say policy wise. Thanks

1:03:29

for reading the website of the

1:03:31

Church of Latter-day Saints. So

1:03:36

yeah, so that's their deal. And I it also

1:03:38

clarified a myth for me, I thought they

1:03:40

just simply couldn't have caffeine. Right. And now I

1:03:42

know from researching the show. Yeah. So that's not

1:03:45

a theologian, but I think

1:03:48

maybe God was just trying to warn us

1:03:50

not to burn our little

1:03:52

tongues on the hot drinks. It

1:03:57

is a loving thing to do. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks,

1:04:00

guys. Thanks. Thanks. That's

1:04:03

the main episode for this

1:04:06

week. Welcome

1:04:16

to the outro with fun features for you such

1:04:18

as help remembering this episode with

1:04:20

a run back through the big

1:04:22

takeaways. Takeaway

1:04:27

number one, bees seem to enjoy caffeine

1:04:29

at their job, sort of like humans

1:04:32

do. Takeaway number

1:04:34

two, almost every caffeine user has

1:04:36

a dependency on it, and there's

1:04:38

lots of argument about whether that

1:04:40

qualifies as an addiction. Takeaway

1:04:43

number three, the Mormon Church might

1:04:45

have clarified its stance on caffeine

1:04:47

due to the national prominence of

1:04:50

Mitt Romney. That's

1:04:52

a loaded and episode wide stats

1:04:54

and numbers section. So many stats

1:04:56

and numbers about the caffeine levels

1:04:58

of beverages, the global range of

1:05:01

caffeine, the South American soccer mascots

1:05:03

celebrating caffeine, and more. Those

1:05:09

are the takeaways. Also, I said that's

1:05:11

the main episode because there is more

1:05:13

secretly incredibly fascinating stuff available to you

1:05:16

right now if you support this show

1:05:18

at maximumbun.org. Members

1:05:20

are the reason that this podcast

1:05:22

exists. You truly are. So members

1:05:24

get a bonus show every week where

1:05:26

we explore one obviously incredibly fascinating story

1:05:29

related to the main episode. This

1:05:31

week's bonus topic is the decaffeination of

1:05:34

coffee. How's that work? What's it from?

1:05:36

How's it do? Visit safpod.fun for

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fun things, check out our research sources

1:05:56

on this episode's page at maximumbun.org. Resources

1:06:00

this week include Botanical Information

1:06:02

from Discovery Magazine and from

1:06:05

the Ladybird Johnson Wildflower Center

1:06:07

at UT Austin, amazing

1:06:09

science news coverage from Smithsonian Magazine, The

1:06:11

New York Times, and National Geographic to

1:06:14

name a few. Also

1:06:16

shout out to the Salt Lake

1:06:18

Tribune for doing really fantastic and

1:06:20

detailed coverage of LDS guidance on

1:06:22

caffeine. That page also

1:06:24

features resources such as native-land.ca. I'm

1:06:27

using those to acknowledge that I recorded

1:06:29

this in Lenapehoking, the traditional land of

1:06:31

the Muncie Lenapeh people and the Wapinger

1:06:34

people, as well as the Mohican people,

1:06:36

Skatagoke people, and others. Also, Katie

1:06:38

taped this in the country of Italy, and

1:06:40

I want to acknowledge that in my location,

1:06:42

in many other locations in the Americas and

1:06:44

elsewhere, native people are very

1:06:46

much still here. That

1:06:49

feels worth doing on each episode, and

1:06:51

join the free SIF Discord, where we're

1:06:53

sharing stories and resources about native people

1:06:55

and life. There is a link in

1:06:57

this episode's description to join that Discord.

1:07:00

We're also talking about this episode on

1:07:02

the Discord, and hey, would you like

1:07:04

a tip on another episode? Because each

1:07:06

week I'm finding something randomly incredibly fascinating

1:07:09

by running all the past episode numbers

1:07:11

through a random number generator. And

1:07:13

this week's pick is a recent one. It is episode 173. That

1:07:16

is about the topic of ska

1:07:18

music. It's our first ever

1:07:21

episode about music genre. We're joined by wonderful

1:07:23

guests Dave Holmes and Riley Silverman. Your special

1:07:25

clips of ska so you understand what we're

1:07:27

talking about in a sonic way. I

1:07:30

really recommend that episode. I also

1:07:32

recommend my co-host Katie Golden's weekly

1:07:34

podcast, Creature Feature, about animals and

1:07:36

science and more. Our

1:07:38

theme music is Unbroken, Unshaven by the

1:07:40

Buddos Band. Our show logo is by

1:07:42

artist Burton Durand. Special thanks to

1:07:44

Chris Souza for audio mastering on this episode.

1:07:47

Special thanks to the Beacon Music Factory

1:07:49

for taping support. Extra

1:07:52

extra special thanks go to our members, and

1:07:54

thank you to all our listeners. I am

1:07:56

thrilled to say we will be back next

1:07:58

week with more secretly incredibly fascinating.

1:08:01

So how about that? Talk

1:08:04

to you then. Maximum

1:08:23

Fun A worker-owned network

1:08:26

of artist-owned shows supported

1:08:28

directly by you.