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Are you listening? Every single one of you deserves to be in the loving relationship that you desire, and these six ingredients can offer you that pathway.

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Have you ever wondered what makes the difference between those couples who absolutely love to be together and the ones who merely tolerate each other in their old age?

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Hi, I'm Monica Tanner, wife to a super hunky man, mom to four kids, relationship coach and intimacy expert.

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My goal with this podcast is to help you and your partner swap resentment for romance, escape the roommate rut and nurture a bond built on trust, communication and unconditional love.

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Each week, I'm sharing the secret strategies that keep couples madly in love, dedicated and downright giddy about each other, from the honeymoon phase to the golden years.

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I'm on a mission to craft the code of happily ever after, and I'm sharing those juicy secrets right here, because an awesome marriage makes life so much sweeter.

1:03

Let's get to it. Hello and welcome to the secrets of happily ever after podcast.

1:10

I'm your host, monica Tanner, and I'm so excited to sit down with a new friend, dr Sarah Nasarzadeh, phd.

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She is a world renowned author, speaker and thinking partner.

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She has had a PhD in social psychology and specializes in sexual health and relationships.

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Dr Nasarzadeh has been a senior cultural advisor for governments, un agencies, academic institutions and Fortune 500 companies.

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She has multiple articles, books and book chapters, to her credit with her newest book, love by Design six ingredients to build a lifetime of love.

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With a fresh perspective on human connectivity, dr Sarah uses proven research to convey how six ingredients are needed for a thriving relationship, from the bedroom to the boardroom.

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These six ingredients, which I'm so excited to dig into our attraction, respect, trust, a shared vision, compassion and loving behaviors can be explored with any audience to attain a unified language, common values and shared aspirations.

2:17

Welcome, I'm so, so excited you're here.

2:20

Thank you so much for having me, I'm excited to be here.

2:24

Well, this is my favorite topic and, of course, this podcast is called Secrets of Happily Ever After.

2:30

I feel like I've been on a mission since I was probably 12 years old to figure out the secrets to a strong, thriving, healthy, passionate, happy relationship, and when I got your book, I was so excited to see that so many of the things I've found in my very informal research have been corroborated by your more.

2:54

You know, let's see educationally backed research in this book.

3:02

So I'm learning so much and I'm so excited to talk about this idea of emergent love with you, because it is such a groundbreaking idea and I think you've done such a phenomenal job of putting your finger on something that's fleeting for people, like it's a concept that's really hard to understand, and you make it very simple.

3:26

So I just I want to read a couple passages from your book that I thought were amazing and then just jump in.

3:32

Does that sound good? Absolutely Well, I think one of the most important concepts that you talk about is this idea of submergent versus emergent love, and I think what happens it's so much is that you know the, the, what we watch on TV and movies and fairy tales, and it's kind of this idea of submergent love where you describe it as, over time, partners no longer know where one ends and the other begins.

4:07

When people talk to me about how their partner is not the person they once fell in love with, they're usually referring to this kind of merging there's no other anymore to be witnessed and attracted to.

4:19

And I think the confusion comes when we talk about, you know, becoming one and you know it's just kind of this confused idea of unity where people talk about compatibility and becoming one, completing each other, like those types of things where you start to lose your personal identity in this for the sake of the relationship, which I think is very confused.

4:45

Do you have anything to add to that? And then we'll talk about this new idea.

4:48

Absolutely. Just to bring it home everything that you said one plus one should equal one.

4:53

That's what we grew up with when you become one with the other person, and that is not a recipe for success in any kind of relationship.

5:04

I think you're right. I think you're right, and it gets really like, it gets really romanticized, but in the day to day interactions it's actually very dangerous, I think.

5:15

And so then you write about this new idea called emergent love, where you describe it as so an emergent love, one plus one equals three.

5:30

This model includes the idea that each person is unique, a separate individual with independent thoughts, feelings, desires and needs.

5:39

This is less an ideal than a reflection of reality.

5:44

When we try to be inclusive of the other fully, we tend to lose the boundaries around our own selfhood and, in turn, we lose the diversity that brought us together in the first place.

5:55

The partnership then becomes a separate entity unto itself, as a relational space that each participates in with intention.

6:05

There is you, there is me and there is we.

6:08

I love this idea.

6:11

It's a very similar to the idea of differentiation, but you make it very visual.

6:18

Yes, absolutely. So let's go there, shall we?

6:21

So when we say one plus one equals one, submerge in love, then we have one plus one equals three.

6:27

It's a little bit different, although my colleagues before me, obviously I'm standing on the shoulders of giants to present this with research, with work, all of that.

6:37

So the concept of third is not necessarily new.

6:41

But what is new in this model of love that hopefully is going to revolutionize the way that we really experience and express love, is if you think about it from the systems thinking perspective.

6:57

So let's say, in the book I also bring the example of a spark and log coming together.

7:02

They create fire only if the oxygen exists and all the elements necessary for them to be together like to create that fire, exist all the time.

7:15

So it's not when people say negotiables, non-negotiables people talk about.

7:21

Can I just shout at you today, and then in this interaction I break you apart, and then tomorrow I'm going to apologize and then because you're a different person than me.

7:29

So differentiation for me is wonderful, but as long as we don't go down the rabbit hole of acquired narcissism.

7:41

So it's like a passive, aggressive approach. It's like me in my own bubble, in my own thing and then I'm independent.

7:48

We are never taught quite how to be interdependent, so in that way, I think this is really problematic.

7:57

When I talk about bedroom to the boardroom, that's what I mean.

8:01

Like even look at the nations. We talk about independence, we talk about just my borders and your borders, right.

8:10

But when you bring people together, to nations together, people of various companies together, you will see that if you really abide by the rules of interdependency, loving and firm boundaries, appreciating and celebrating whatever that the other person, nation, whatever, brings to the table, that's where we have the fire, and that fire can only exist based on six very key ingredients that we found to research.

8:39

Oh, I'm so excited to dive in to each one because I've been reading your book and I just I love the way you describe each of these ingredients.

8:49

So we, like I named him in the in the intro, and I think if we just take each one and talk about them individually, I think that would be fantastic.

9:00

Absolutely, and please feel free to interrupt.

9:02

Come in, let me know what you think.

9:04

Okay, so in no particular order.

9:07

I started the book with attraction, because usually attraction comes first, because that's what makes us feel like we want to be around somebody else, right?

9:16

One of the issues that I take with attraction with again, the way that I'm included, you know, like the way that we were brought up is, as soon as you say attraction, people hear sexual attraction, physical attraction, which is really important.

9:31

Physical attraction, however, it's not all.

9:34

Sometimes it's social attraction, sometimes it's financial attraction, sometimes it's intellectual attraction, and more and more couples are actually looking for that intellectual attraction.

9:45

Just see where the world is going, right.

9:48

We're all growing. Self-help books are selling, you know what does that tell you?

9:51

People are looking for that intellectual capacity to develop, right?

9:55

So intellectual attraction is a big part of it as well.

9:58

So, different types of attraction.

10:01

The other thing is attraction, in the simplest form that I can put, is why do I want to be around you and is it sustainable over time?

10:11

Right? So if what brings us together is just having hot sex dangling from chandeliers, right.

10:17

There are several phases of life that that could not happen, based on various issues that we have, the physical abilities, phase of life.

10:28

You know like you adopt a child or have a pet, or you know like you become a blended family.

10:34

So there's a lot. There's a lot that is going on that if we have only one point of attraction, and a flimsy one, that research shows, on average sexual chemistry fizzles out within two years into a relationship, right?

10:50

So how could we imagine ourselves building a whole empire with somebody based on that flimsy thing that could be here today and not there tomorrow, right?

11:02

So that is the whole conversation in attraction.

11:05

The other segment for attraction that's very important for me to point out here is it's wonderful that we have those initial points of attraction that bring us together, but if we're looking over a long time, long period of time, we are evolving as humans.

11:22

It changes right from day to day.

11:25

I want to be around myself, with myself, for different reasons, different days, right?

11:30

So how can we assume that they stay the same aesthetic in a partnership with another human being or other human beings, right?

11:38

So that's one. Therefore, attraction needs work to translate into intimacy.

11:44

I call it intimacy for a reason.

11:48

So into me. I see, over a period of time, I have self-reducy.

11:52

I know what you know ticks me, I know what annoys me, what are my pet peeves and all of that.

11:59

What am I proud of, what are my identities that I hold and work on them and then I will choose into me.

12:06

You see which part of me, on a daily basis, I'm going to invite you into see and celebrate with me, to sit with me, and the same reciprocity goes by the way around.

12:17

To right that, I need to get to know you and what matters to you and all that.

12:23

And on that point I have to also mention something else we have become a nation in the combination.

12:29

In the United States we share a lot about trauma.

12:33

We talk a lot about trauma. Not everybody is traumatized.

12:36

Not everybody has a different like it has the same understanding of trauma.

12:42

Right, without minimizing the issues adverse childhood experiences that somebody had.

12:48

Your partner doesn't really need to only hear about those, because when I sit with couples, I see that they do the into me.

12:56

I see. So what is happening with me?

12:59

Where did go wrong for me as a child?

13:02

What are the scars that I'm holding? They shared that with their partners, but they failed to share with their partners.

13:08

What is it that you're proud of? What is it that you would like to be celebrated for?

13:12

What are the rules in your life that you wake up every morning, want to fulfill?

13:17

Those are the ones to, as long as we have a balance, that intimacy works for us right.

13:23

So I'm going to stop there to see what comes up for you.

13:27

Yeah, well, one of the things I talk a lot about and I get asked in interviews about this a lot is how do you keep that spark alive, like how do you continue to be attracted over the years?

13:38

And I think what happens in this loss of attraction is people start to get a sense of familiarity.

13:48

They think because they circulate in the same area, they sleep in the same bed, they eat at the same table, that they know everything there is to know about their partner.

13:58

And what's so cool about attraction and keeping attraction going is having curiosity for your partner's lived experience, not just their past, because you can go through that pretty quickly.

14:12

If you're a good detective, you can learn about their childhood and different things like that.

14:18

But, like you said, we're constantly changing, we're constantly evolving, we're constantly learning new things and even if you're spending 24 hours a day, seven days a week, with your partner which most of us don't they're experiencing the world in a very different way.

14:35

And even just recently, I was explaining this to my husband because we were having a disagreement about something and he was very certain that the way he saw it was the way that it was, and I was trying to explain to him that, no matter what relationship you're talking about, there's always going to be two subjective realities.

14:57

There's going to be how he experienced it and how I experienced it.

15:01

And if we're constantly curious about the way our partners experiencing things, then we're going to keep that attraction, that sense of mystery, that newness and novelty and that excitement to learn about another human being and how they experience things.

15:21

And so that to me, is the key to keeping attraction going long term is to always be curious about your partner's lived experiences.

15:31

Sure, and you're actually describing some elements of intimacy.

15:35

And into me, I see, into me. You see. Why do I see what I see?

15:39

What do I see? What is my experience?

15:41

How am I expressing it? How does it land on the other person?

15:44

How do I receive theirs? So this is like an interaction that we have almost dance every day, right?

15:50

And two other things that you mentioned I wanted to bring up.

15:53

One is over a period of time.

15:57

Spark and attraction are two different things, right?

16:00

So spark is that sexual chemistry, neurophysiologically speaking, because when we are sexually attracted to another being, it means that we would like to be, they arouse us in a certain way, right, and usually in a heterosexual couple, it's because they want to create cute little babies with good genes, because they are based on genetics or diverse enough, right.

16:24

But physical attraction, for the most part, on the other side, is mainly socially constructed.

16:32

There is a reason that we are attracted to a certain type of energy, certain type of look, certain type of nose, certain type of touch and form of body, right.

16:42

So these are the ones that I want to put the nuances in, because this is how we get into the pitfalls, right, because unfortunately, language is all we have sometimes to communicate.

16:55

And there are lots of things that I use the same terminology, like, for example, trust, attraction, and people say, oh, we've been there, done that, read that, that, that right.

17:02

But then, if you really look at it, have we really?

17:06

So that's my hope that we really pause and see how we can define them and redefine them based on all the science that we know, based on relational science, human science, human connectivity, as well as neuroscience and neurophysiology, right?

17:22

The other thing that you mentioned, like, for example, when you say spark, over time, a lot of terminology I hear from people reignite and rekindle, and that is just scientifically impossible Because, like you know, I don't know about you when you did this experiment at school, if you did the volcano, did you do the volcano experiment?

17:44

I was in third grade, I think.

17:47

So we did the baking soda and then it erupted.

17:49

So cool, but it doesn't matter how much more baking soda or other elements you add to it, it's not going to erupt again.

18:00

It's like a person tickling yourself.

18:02

It doesn't make you laugh.

18:05

You know what I mean. So that piece of it I need for people to also understand that neurophysiologically is not possible what you're searching for the spark.

18:14

Therefore, it's great if the spark brought you together, but you need to expand it from sexual chemistry, sexual harmony, to learn each other, to learn yourself over time.

18:25

What is it that is fulfilling to me? Because many people again chasing orgasm, for example, in their sexual connection.

18:31

I dedicated a whole chapter on physical connection because of that, because it's so misunderstood, as you know what to look for.

18:39

How does satisfaction look like?

18:41

These sort of things, right?

18:44

The other thing is over a period of time.

18:46

One of the reasons that I say these six ingredients need to exist all together is because, although we are talking about attraction, but imagine, there is a principle in social psychology that we call reciprocity of liking.

19:01

If I know that you like me, I'm going to like you because you like me.

19:06

So that's very natural, right, and it's actually proven.

19:10

So, over a period of time, when we treat each other with bitterness, passive aggressiveness, lack of respect, lack of compassion, lack of loving, over a period of time, it chips away from that feeling of being attracted to one another, wanting to be around one another, we don't even like each other, right?

19:31

So these are the pieces that I would like for people to really pay attention to and put some scaffold around it so that reciprocity of liking If I don't show you that I like you, then you're not going to like me back and over a period of time the crack becomes chasm.

19:52

Yeah, so that actually brings us to respect.

19:55

I feel like a layer lower than attraction is respect.

20:01

Absolutely, so we respect these as a word.

20:04

Respect means see and to see.

20:06

Again, what it means is that I keep looking at you going back to the curiosity that you mentioned right Keep looking at you and try to figure you out your priorities.

20:16

And a big part of conversation around respect is boundary.

20:21

Again, that's one of those trendy words that everybody uses, the, but how do we define it?

20:26

I want that for my couples, that tomorrow morning when I wake up, I want to put my effort somewhere.

20:31

Where do I put it? That matters to me, right.

20:35

So the way that it was defined by our research participants, who identified as thriving in their relationships as well as couple them with the average relationship of 10 years and these are all sexual and relational orientations, all the genders and, you know, across ages as well Boundary was defined as an invitation to send to people to show them how to treat you.

21:03

It's not borders that many people go into their own cave and I feel like you know they shut everybody out.

21:13

Right, and boundaries are only good if you can respect them and be respected for lovingly and firmly.

21:22

If you find yourself pushing somebody away or bringing your hand up and really some of my couples do that actually with the gesture of hand, as if you know I was going to say like you know, like a hard stop.

21:36

Some of my couples do that and that is not loving and firm that might be a little firm but not really loving.

21:45

So boundary is a huge part of respect to respect each other's priorities and be there for them.

21:55

Yeah, and I think a big part of that, too, is it will bring us to trust, but trusting that I can care for myself in a way that's loving and kind to myself and to you, and that you will teach me how to treat you as well.

22:12

So one of the one of my most popular trainings that I do for people is teaching them how to make requests of each other, because I do think that's a really important ingredient for keeping the passion alive long term is to consistently be able to make requests.

22:31

I think as humans, it's really easy to complain about things when we're not getting our way or be resentful when things aren't going the way we want them to.

22:43

But if we want long-term, thriving love, we have to have enough respect for ourselves and for our partner to be consistently asking for, requesting the things that we want more of.

22:57

Yes and don't leave it to mind reading and saying that, oh well, yeah, if you love me, you would know.

23:03

Yes, yeah, that's great.

23:06

Yes, absolutely. And for respect. You know, when my clients come and say I don't feel respected by my partner, the first question I ask, I ask them are you respectable?

23:16

Do you keep to your own boundaries lovingly and firmly, or are you walking all over yourself before anybody else does so?

23:25

These are the things that I feel like we all want the same thing we want more love, more fulfilling love in the world, in our relationships, all that.

23:34

So if we can really take a pause and look at things a little bit differently, I think we have enough resources to really be able to succeed at them, yes, and so that brings us to trust.

23:50

Trust. Two elements. Non-negotiable elements of trust would be consistency and reliability.

24:00

Those are non-negotiable people because, yes, you show up for each other, for yourself, you know all that.

24:08

Are you trustworthy and are you trusting?

24:12

Everything has two lens right.

24:14

So, looking at yourself, looking at the other person and the relationship, it's extremely important to show up consistently for one another.

24:23

I have a lot of examples in the book from simple things Like, for example, you said you're going to make kids breakfast this morning and you didn't.

24:34

That could be. You know, something that could be small turn out to be something really big.

24:39

Or I give an example of a couple that for one person's lack of consistency, the other person could be imprisoned.

24:45

So it could. These things could be different, but regardless, the job that it has on the person in front of you and on the relationship is considerable.

25:01

So consistency and reliability are big parts of trust and it could be financial, emotional, social, relational, sexual, all the way I do, like how you break that out in the book, like I didn't think about social trust, but yeah, like, can I trust you to talk highly of me in front of other people you know, or like those types of things?

25:24

Can I trust you to help me fulfill the things that I need to, or look good in front of these people, or whatever, which are all very important aspects of a good relationship?

25:37

Yeah, absolutely. And you know when you can't trust your partner and you just said something in the moment of vulnerability or not even vulnerability, or just chit chatting as a couple, and then, before you know it, tomorrow night at dinner table is shared Like hey, yeah that was not for public information or posting on social media of every move.

26:00

You know, there's so many ways, so many ways that we bridge each other's trust on daily basis and we don't even think about it.

26:07

How, you taking the intimacy level quiz yet?

26:10

If not, you absolutely should.

26:13

All you have to do is go to Monica Tanner dot com back slash quiz and take a three minute quiz.

26:21

At the end I'll tell you what level of intimacy you and your spouse are at and I'll give you next steps to be able to increase your intimacy.

26:31

Regardless of what level you're at, you can always make improvements.

26:35

So do yourself a favor and go to Monica Tanner dot com back slash quiz and learn about your level of intimacy and how to improve it.

26:44

So that actually brings us to the next one, which I have listed as compassion, because we are going to make mistakes For sure.

26:52

We're human. We're not perfect.

26:54

So how do we have more compassion for each other?

26:58

Compassion basically means being there for the other person, while empathy is being there with the other person and relating is what we do as humans if we are socially capable.

27:10

You know, some people with certain conditions can't relate to other humans, but and that's, you know, that's their condition.

27:19

But usually let's say, for example, you come and say Sarah, um, like I had too much lunch today.

27:28

Oh, my tummy aches, I had too much lunch.

27:30

And I say, oh, you know what? I remember the time that I had that.

27:33

That becomes a situation that we're going back and forth.

27:37

That creates bonds between us. However, in the couple of them, sometimes it happens that we are over relating to one another.

27:45

So, for example, your sentence is not done and I'm already leaving the situation, thinking about me and 11 other situations that I was in with the tummy pain and I left.

27:56

You know already. So that's over relating, right.

27:58

Or sometimes you feel like I'm dismissing you because it all becomes about me.

28:02

My experiences matter.

28:05

This is just a matter of conversation. It was about my belly pain, what happened, so that the other one is empathy.

28:12

Empathy is a big one. It's controversial actually, because if you read the research empathy and compassion and sympathy and patronization.

28:20

You know there are so many words around it. They are defined differently depending on the person who was studying them.

28:28

The way that I look at it is from a relational science perspective.

28:34

So I just want to, you know, be clear about that.

28:37

When I talk about over empathization, killing the relationship, here's an example.

28:42

I come to you and say, monica, I'm bleeding, I'm hurting, I'm bleeding for whatever reason.

28:47

I call it bleeding, right. And then you say, instead of you show up with compassion, you show up for me, you might get so rattled by it, so upset by it, for whatever reason, you either show up blaming me.

29:03

Why did you do that? Could you not take care of yourself?

29:06

You know we do that to our children, by the way, all the time For parents out there.

29:11

I'm included. So you know, that's what.

29:14

The second one is the second common way that I see is you come and say that are you bleeding?

29:20

Let me tell you about my bleeding. I'm bleeding too.

29:23

The third one is I'm bleeding for you, even heavier than you, right?

29:28

So then, if I'm bleeding, you're bleeding.

29:30

Who's getting the band-aid? What is happening? And I see that every day with my couples.

29:36

That's why I say compassion, people, empathy has its place, empathizing with each other.

29:42

So, for example, erotic empathy is beautiful when you are in a space sharing that energy with each other and going back and forth, playing a tune, feeling with each other in the moment.

29:55

That's beautiful. Sometimes unfortunate situations you're commiserating with each other and that it has a beautiful place.

30:02

Wonderful. But for daily living, compassion is the way to be, and that's also what our research shows being there for the other person rather than making it about yourself or feeling with them.

30:17

So both of you are so destabilized that nobody can help nobody.

30:21

You know what.

30:23

Okay, this relates so well to a principle that I've been teaching for a little while, and just recently, like a couple of days ago, I experienced the difficulty in it, like for myself in my own relationship.

30:42

So let me see if I can make this make sense.

30:45

So my husband and I were in a disagreement and we're walking along the beach Well, my husband and I were on vacation.

30:52

We're walking along the beach and I could tell that he was a little bit upset about something.

30:56

You know, I could just feel his energy and so I said, okay, tell me what you're upset about.

31:02

And he proceeded to tell me the story of how something happened last night and he was upset about it and he felt like it was my fault.

31:11

And immediately, you know, here's what I teach.

31:15

I teach that when this is a Gottman principle when, when, when your partner is in pain, the world stops.

31:22

And I listen, right, that repair is a one way street.

31:25

So if he was upset by something that happened last night, my job is just to listen.

31:30

I don't have to fix it, I don't have to defend myself, none of that.

31:34

It's. It's difficult, but it's so important, right?

31:38

So just for me to hear him out, to feel his experience and then to help him through that right.

31:44

But what I wanted to do was defend myself, and so I was like it wasn't all my fault, there's all of these other things, right.

31:52

And now we're both engaged in this feud kind of right, I'm right, no, I'm right, no, I'm right.

31:59

And once I started to recognize that it was going nowhere and in my mind, of course, because of what I do, I was like where has this gone wrong?

32:09

Because we are getting nowhere. And then I realized this is my fault, because I asked him what was wrong.

32:15

And then, instead of just hearing his experience, I needed to explain my own.

32:21

And that was the exact moment when I was explaining no, there's subjective reality, right, there's your reality and my reality.

32:29

But that was not the place for that, it was just.

32:32

I just needed to have compassion for his experience and then, at a later date, at a different time, I could say now, listen, my experience with this is such and such right.

32:45

But I teach that to my couples. And I didn't realize until that very moment how difficult it really is to just have compassion to just.

32:53

I didn't need to fix it, I didn't need to change his reality, I just needed to be present with his reality and to hear him out.

33:01

And that, I think, is what compassion is right.

33:08

And you could even add compassionate curiosity, meaning tell me more about that, like I'm sorry that you're upset about that, tell me more about it, and that's how we repair, like that's how we have compassion for each other, right?

33:25

I think that's what you were describing.

33:28

First of all, I want to pause for a second and acknowledge how genuine you are, because you know people think that because we work with relationships and with couples, we are perfect.

33:38

We understand how difficult it is, more than you think, right, because we see it and we know how it should be.

33:47

And what just came out of my mouth was absolutely the other way direction.

33:52

So in those moments humility, right, I just wanted to acknowledge that.

33:56

So in that moment, if we can kind of break it apart so people can have something practical to take away, I call that calling and call out.

34:06

So one thing is you called out.

34:08

Do you want to tell me what you're upset about With an inviting voice, right, calling out and then calling in?

34:17

I would add something else that I call framing.

34:22

As your husband is starting to share, you're like well, you check in with yourself, see whether you're becoming uncomfortable, you have a lens on yourself and then keep yourself a check.

34:34

That's important. The other thing is important to know how to show up for him.

34:39

Maybe he just wanted to vent, maybe he just wanted to say hey, next time, can you please don't do that.

34:45

Yep, you know, just get it off his chest.

34:47

So just to check in the framing is how do you want me to be here for you right now?

34:52

Right, yes, and then.

34:55

So I think those are the things that come up for me the call out and calling and framing.

35:02

How are we here? And also, sometimes, when you see it's coming up, you just name it to tame it, as Peter Levine says, right, as you can just talk about it and say, hey, I feel like I'm becoming defensive a little bit.

35:17

Can I take a minute?

35:19

And then you breathe, remind yourself before you say something that you can't really take back or you're pulled into the situation.

35:27

Yeah. So I like to point out two scenarios where it's very, very challenging to do this, because I think it's so important to have this type of compassion for our partners, like the reality is, is the incident that my husband was talking about, it was over, like it was done, there was no redo, like he just needed to tell me about his experience, right and so.

35:50

But it was challenging because his pain he was attributing to me, yeah, and the other scenario where I think it's really different, where it's difficult to not kind of jump in, is when we feel their pain is irrational, right.

36:07

So like when his lived experiences have given him, like a completely to me, irrational idea of that, right.

36:15

And so those two scenarios, it becomes difficult to be compassionate, but compassion is what's called for.

36:21

It's like he's going through the thing that he's going through, whatever that is, and my job isn't to fix it, it's not to change it, it's just to be present with him there, right, so that he can just explain his lived experience and be heard.

36:38

That's all he needed was to just be heard and understood.

36:42

And so, yeah, when we went back and finally we walked up the beach and back up the beach and screwed it up a few times.

36:49

But then after we had lunch together and then we were able to go through the thing and he said what are you most upset about right now?

36:56

And I said I'm not really upset at all, I just think that I should have given you full opportunity to express yourself and I wanted to get defensive and I didn't mean to and so, but it like it was so good for me to experience that, because I know how difficult it is when you're having your lived experience and you just need a little compassion for me and understanding.

37:24

You just want me to hear it and I was like trying to fix it or change it or make it go away or minimize it, right, and that's what caused the argument.

37:35

Yes, yeah, actually, on that note, one thing that maybe people remember is don't minimize human eyes, if you can really remember that.

37:44

Yes, right, little things, little things to remind us in those moments, but I'm glad that you guys came back together, so that that's great, with the compassion that you showed and for him to be open to share.

37:59

Yes, yes, I, we, yes, we have 22 years together, so we've made a lot of mistakes, but we, we, we can fix them pretty well now Because we're pretty versed in those kind of relational in exchanges.

38:15

Not perfect, of course, but we're getting much quicker at repair.

38:19

Right and nothing is perfect. I mean, if we are perfect, then we are submerged and we are co dependent.

38:27

And if there is no argument whatsoever, no disagreements, no tiff, no, like you know being upset and you know what not, then we haven't grown at all.

38:36

We stopped seeing each other as the other person you know and, yeah, we became one, which is not a good thing.

38:45

Yes, oh, I agree. Ok, so that brings us to shared vision, shared vision, ok.

38:51

So shared vision is one of those things that we need to again break into different aspects.

38:57

Where are you committed to go together Geographically, spiritually, relationally, physiologically, familially, like socially, all of that?

39:09

Where are you committed to go together?

39:11

And within that there are certain conversations that you will have with yourself as well.

39:17

Are you compromising on your own vision to join the couple Dems vision?

39:22

Are you sacrificing anything or are you negotiating?

39:27

I'm OK with negotiation, I'm OK for compromising in certain areas.

39:33

I'm not OK with sacrificing unless you know what you're doing and both of you are aware as what is on the stake and and keep in, keep an open communication about it, because a lot of people who thought they sacrificed and they were OK with it, years later and up in my office and unfortunately there's not much I can do Because the resentments, the grief that they were feeling around whatever that they left behind and sacrificed, some of them they can recreate in their lives and bring back to their lives in one way or the other, and some of them they can't really let go.

40:17

And that's it for the relationship.

40:20

So be careful with the when you're doing the shared visions with each other, the exercises, be careful that you're not ending up sacrificing, especially areas that are parts of your identity.

40:32

Yeah, it's important, we're so important, all right.

40:36

And then probably one of the most important, just daily loving behaviors.

40:43

Yes, absolutely so. When I was writing the book, we had a good conversation without a tutorial team about.

40:50

The whole book is about love. Why there's a whole chapter about love.

40:55

In emergent love we talk about love not as only a feeling but a state of being, and love can only exist through its manifestation.

41:04

If there is a fire and you come and say, sarah, look at the fire, if I can't really see it, touch it, feel it, where is it?

41:11

Right, it's not a concept, the same with love, right?

41:15

So loving behaviors have very specific qualities when you make the other person feel special.

41:22

So they're not replaceable easily at least, right?

41:25

So I do this for you, I touch you like this.

41:28

These are the words that I use for you, and I'm not going to say darling to you and darling to the dog and darling to the neighbor.

41:35

So this is important, right, very important Little nuanced messages that we exchange with each other.

41:42

And then we also go back to that concept of curiosity.

41:48

Curiosity has its place. However, if I may, in a loving relationship.

41:54

We have to abide by informed interest, genuine interest, more than curiosity, because curiosity has a hint of ignorance.

42:03

I don't know what, I don't know, but with loving behavior.

42:07

When you are with a special someone, you know certain things about them.

42:11

You know if they're lactose intolerant. You know if they're allergic to something, you know what kind of flower they like, right.

42:18

So over a period of time, you paid attention to what matters to them, and that's one of the reasons that we get attracted to another person in romantic partnerships.

42:27

Because they remembered that I like yellow, they remembered that I like that flower, right, and over a period of time.

42:35

If we stop doing those specific acts, then that quality goes down.

42:42

The other thing is giving benefit of the doubt.

42:44

We don't give everybody benefit of the doubt, but our partners a lot, right?

42:49

The other thing is, if I'm going out of my way for you, that's an act of loving as well.

42:57

So it's not like I got the flowers because somebody came to the window of the car and sold it to me, but I actually went out of my way to get you that thing.

43:06

Or, for example, that little thing that I saw in the street reminded me of you.

43:11

Or I went out of my way to get this for you or do this for you, or make this happen for you.

43:19

These are all acts of loving.

43:22

Mm so good. I think that's so important because I do love how Gottman says it's not the big things, it's the small things done often and really you can apply that to just about anything that's good for you.

43:38

So exercise you can't just go have a big workout once a month and see any benefit from it.

43:45

You have to do workouts and make good choices every single day.

43:49

It's like brushing your teeth. You can't brush your teeth for a very long time once a month.

43:53

You have to brush your teeth every single day.

43:56

And so these loving behaviors. When I was reading a little bit about it in the book, I was like it's not these big, massive acts, it's every single day.

44:06

How are we loving each other? How is that manifesting in our everyday lives?

44:10

Mm-hmm, absolutely, and when I was trained, I was Gottman trained like 20-something years ago, and I love their works.

44:17

That as a couple who go through this.

44:21

And but going to our conversation today, I would say one of their better books.

44:26

They're all great. One of the better books is the Eight Dates.

44:29

It's very practical and you know that you go through all of these and then sit together, go through the questions and come up with your own questions.

44:37

For that matter, and in love by design also, I try to give people building blocks that's why I call it design and so that we are not just talking the talk and shattering everything you know about that love and dangling from chandeliers.

44:51

Right, I actually show you how successful people did it so that you have a path forward.

44:57

You know to put one foot in front of the other, how you do it and hopefully some of it resonates.

45:05

And again, this is not one size fits all, but at least some guidelines for people to follow.

45:12

Yeah, so good. So I have a question that I like to ask all my guests, and so I feel like maybe this is just the culmination of our of our conversation, but if you had the undivided attention of all the couples in the entire world for just a few minutes, what's the most important thing you could teach them about creating a love by design?

45:35

Are you listening? Every single one of you deserves to be in the loving relationship that you desire, and these six ingredients can offer you that pathway.

45:48

Please take it.

45:51

So good. So, for those of you watching on YouTube, this is the book Love by Design Six ingredients to build a lifetime of love.

45:59

I absolutely recommend it. I'm about halfway through, but I will finish the book and I can't wait to keep diving into these principles.

46:07

And so thank you so much for your time today at Dr Sarah.

46:12

And where can people find the book and learn more about you?

46:15

Sure.

46:16

Thank you kindly for having me and bringing your expertise to the table as well.

46:20

This was a wonderful and enjoyable conversation.

46:22

So I am on Instagram for a daily post.

46:27

If people want resources around relationships and also to find a book on different forms in different countries, they can go to wwwlovebydesignbookcom.

46:38

Perfect.

46:42

We'll have that in the show notes for everybody and thank you.

46:44

You have so much for your time and I hope that we'll have the opportunity to talk again soon.

46:50

I look forward to it. Thank you so much, Monica.

46:52

Thank you.

46:54

If you had as much fun as we did just now, I hope that you'll head over to your favorite podcast player and leave a rating and review for the show or share it on social media.

47:04

That's how other people can find this awesome content and we can spread the message that happily ever after is possible.

47:11

Feel free to check out my website, monicatannercom, to find out more ways you can work with me and, as always, thank you so much for spending this time with me.