Today's guest is Shannon Lietz, VP of Vulnerability Labs at Adobe. Shannon joined Hazel to talk about how she first got into offensive security and the lessons she’s learned along the way, as well as the kind of work she and her team undertake at Adobe to test defenses.

We also talk about measurement, and how security was never set up to be measured properly, which is something Shannon is trying to change. She also has some thoughts on risk management and tackling that in a different way.

And at one of the most poignant parts of the interview, Shannon talks about the moment she decided to change her leadership style.

If you're interested in the book Shannon mentioned, "Humanocracy" here's a link to the website www.humanocracy.com

Finally, if you're free at 10am PT on April 26th, be sure to join Hazel plus special guests Accidental CISO, Liz Waddell and Christos Syngelakis, to discuss stories of how to build security resilience. Sign up to be reminded here - CiscoChat Live: Detect, Respond, Recover