0:01

Storytelling, this ancient art form is constantly reinvented. I'm your host Fabian Seewald, and I'm super excited to take you on this journey with an extraordinary inspiring personality. Let's go and learn about the craft of storytelling.

1:26

Thank you, Fabian, I should get you to do the introductions for me, you know, as a running business, so it was a very, very strong one.

1:36

Well, I'm happy about that. Well, thanks a lot. So maybe MCing might be a creative pivot from high future. Let's see

1:47

Very nice. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

1:50

Well, to get started, let's, let's give our listeners a bit more of an insight. Who are you Where did this journey lead from or how did this journey guide Australia with some theater experience all the way to Berlin take us a bit on these inflection points on your journey of growth and creativity.

2:10

Yeah, sure. Well, actually, I,

4:14

awesome journey. And I also have some background in circus How is it for you actually? or How was it for you at such an early stage to already change the positions from being onstage towards being behind the FOH and and from there directing or things where there's a hard cut over you're also switching back and forth and still sometimes performing or was the decision point where it said actually to get to the next level it's time to get off stage and see the big picture and everything together?

4:45

Yeah, I guess. You know, I guess I always had a pretty strong dominant you know, side in terms of creation. Even when I was a kid. I really liked coming up with you know, the material and Then that just increased more and more as I, you know, went into professional companies in my 20s. And, you know, I worked with a lot of different companies from from my 20s to early 30s some major companies like Dell aguada, you know, touring internationally. And at one point, I'd got a bit tired of the repetition as in doing one show for four months, you know, in the city, this was starting to really, you know, drain me mentally, and it just became a bit you know, monotonous, I guess, and I was like, okay, there has to be more to this and my passion was really in creation. So I was lucky enough to get a few scholarships and development grants from Australia, which allowed me to go and investigate different companies like group F, the pyrotechnic company in France and a theatre company in Montreal, for example. And so I spent, you know, 12 months, just traveling around looking at how other people are working in very different diverse fields. And yeah, then ended up eventually in in Berlin and was making my own work. And that's kind of with the birth of battle. So I think for me, it just got to that point where I preferred to be creating and directing rather than performing. Not because I didn't like performing, but I kind of just wanted more, you know, I was happy to do a couple of shows, but people don't understand doing 10 shows a week, you know, for five or six months, the same thing day in day out, becomes very quickly, Groundhog Day. And, you know, that's something you have to deal with on a daily basis as an actor or a permanent play out.

6:56

Yeah, I agree that at some point, it's it's definitely making a bold decision to say do either this or that and then do it that 150% or two do not small steps on each side but rather to to do a real leap. And well, what is what is the meaning of Battle Royale is actually a good question because when I was looking at Battle Royale on Instagram, there's a lot of fortnight things happening. So tell us a little bit how did you create this name? will battle Battle Royale? I mean, we start

7:27

I started, actually with the kind of landing page in mind because we, you know, take a lot of pride in working between culture and commerce. And this was this was something we were doing from the very beginning, you know, we were creating, like contemporary theater work. So, you know, theater work, but we were also working for major brands in doing brand experience. So we were sitting somewhere on the fence in between these two sectors. And that's kind of how the name came about. Back Being like us fighting to to have creative space and Royal, how you are generally treated when you're working on larger scale projects, you know, corporate nature. And I must say those two worlds and separations still exist and they have a lot of conversation between these two sectors. But in many ways it's pivoted you know, like the Royal for us is now having the creative freedom you know, of a cultural project and having that space to sink versus that very kuti you know, time sensitive scenario that you have in a corporate world or, you know, being dictated by a brand and what, what their way of working is and the message I want to say that restriction. This can be the battle, you know, in many ways, I think, as we know as, as created. So, yeah, this is definitely The name came about or also these connotations of this battle royale kind of wrestling term of all in, you know, all in the ring together, battle to the, to the end survival of the fittest type thing, something very theatrical, you know in that?

9:18

Yeah, that makes total sense in a way. Sometimes I also described do as the robin hood of the performing arts because we have a similar approach in a way that for sure somebody has to pay the bill. And actually the corporate events are also sometimes challenging you coming up with new technological ideas. And also, as you said, the time sensitive stuff, it's almost like it's pushing you to create but then having as well the creative freedom to be like in rather lab mode and explore is then the freedom that you'd have to fight for and then, in a way not get too much into one thing to lose the other thing and so it's Yeah, it's a constant balancing act. But on one hand, I think at some point you also achieve two that both are kind of helping each other they'd like from the lab and Experiments new things come up that, that then the in a way more commercial parties interested in, for example, some digitalization product, we have a baby do new just as a rather game experiment. And then from there unlike some companies that I want the digital don't do and I think for you might be the same that, like can also be a mutually supporting each other. Yeah, absolutely.

10:22

That's what I mean by this kind of conversation, whether the two sides certainly have a lot to learn from each other. I think, also a question about, you know, creative practice and the art becoming a financially sustainable structure, you know, which I think it's fair to say, in many respects, it's not, you know, in terms of getting funded and does does that project is that project capable of even closely fulfilling or recouping that financial investment in that time investment. And of course, it shouldn't be about you know, when the The project making a profit. But I think we're the third responsibility as a creator, where you say, okay, you know, what, how many people are going to reach versus call? And is that financially viable, or that's a gross misuse of funds, you know, versus creating something which can be experienced by many, many, many people and offsetting that kind of per per head call. And using those funds in a kind of responsibly, you know, socially responsible manner. And vice versa, you know, in the corporate world, teaching them about a holistic approach, and saying, well, that is also a huge waste of, you know, funds and energy and money. Couldn't we think about doing that a better way that can benefit the community, you know? So this is these are always interesting things to tackle, you know, when you're working between those two sectors, as I said, but certainly a lot of influence coming from both sides into benefiting from a creative experience or whether the brand experience or something more cultural.

12:08

How do you handle these two hats on the one hand as well being to see Oh, and as well as having employees having economic necessities on one hand on the other side also be like a visionary. I do have certain timeframes or can send it both heads fit on the head sometimes or what is a good approach for you to to handle that?

12:30

Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know it's something I've just kind of done from the beginning. You know, I've always had that ability to split, split the two. I'm really lucky to have a strong administrative team, you know, that also i that allows me to step in, just be creative for certain periods without having to worry about running the company. that's hugely fortunate and Yeah, I guess I, you know, I've never really struggled about seeing the, let's say the functionality of something knows the feasibility of something. Versus that I think it was kind of the producer hat, we say, Yeah, I can figure out how to make that work. And I can figure out how to how to get the most out of that without just thinking about an elaborate creative idea without any idea about how to realize it. And I, you know, I understand that not everybody thinks in that way, but for me, I guess, you know, I sit somewhere in the middle between this kind of creative thinker versus practical thinker, and you know, that also has a shortfall because it sometimes stops you from being overtly creative because you start to be offered to practical but you know, that's a battle and I think we all have our own battles in terms of creativity and, you know, self critiquing and all those elements. So that's, that's something that I'm doing just on a daily basis, I guess there's not really any set structure to it.

14:14

And tell us a little bit about the team at battle. There is an administrative part, but also like different creatives come together and how do you lead them? How do you kind of bring them on the same on the same table to make these immersive experience that you create?

14:30

Yeah, well, we're a core team of around 15 people. That was good. The team is a bit smaller now with with most of the production team on quota by or furloughed simply because we don't have productions running right now. But generally, we're pretty tight. group the mix of administration team, creative team, motion designers, office management, We have a couple of movies, you know, and we essentially Connect once a week, you know, to go over all the pressing points and updates from projects that are running, often we'll have six projects running parallel. So it's good to keep a quick overview about how that, that that's working. But essentially, having a kind of structure split between some of the tools that you know, the online tools that we're using, that we can have a kind of solid kick off an understanding about what a what a project is going to demand. And then yeah, delegating this within the team, so that it runs smoothly. I mean, I know it sounds simple, but of course, you know, companies, I think, are made by their ability to delegate and have small teams running within the big team. And we take a lot of pride in our attention. to making sure people feel comfortable managing both teams, because a lot of the projects were doing a very large scale one off, you know, one hit wonders, we call them when you're creating something for for the first time, you know, so you're actually learning in that process about how to do things. And if you think about normal companies that are developing a product, and then they refine that same product, and then they sell that product, you know, but actually, what we're doing is in really inventing a new product, every time we produce something, of course, we use similar tools and, you know, ways of telling the story, but we're often always inventing new ways to tell things and that means new technology or new format or, you know, working with new people, objects, animals, building, whatever that might be. And you're trying to find a way and and this is, I think, the most precarious thing of what we do is, is making sure that we find the way And then it works on time when we unleash it to the to the public or the you know the client. But I must say this, this period of covert shutdown has been, you know, exceptional for us because we dived into intense concept phase for a particular ceremony ceremony opening for is actually from the ash Luxemburg Capital of Culture, which is happening in 2022. And we had this plans to be, you know, a conceptual phase. It just so happened that the lockdown happened parallel. So, we dive in with some, you know, online tools that we established and we entered this kind of creative prototyping phase where we made a kind of structure and process around what I thought we needed to give that But say, local team from the management body at the Capital of Culture to give their authentic and legitimate input. So they could take ownership of this concept that we were creating. And that was through a series of exercises. And like I said, within this bundle of creative prototyping, using online tools, and what we found is really streamline that process. So it got rid of a lot of the, you know, let's say arduous meetings, where people either rolling you know, in the back of their heads, you know, we all sat the room with oxygen, and actually just made it very efficient, everybody listening to each other because of the restrictions of zoom and pooling ideas, you know, using shared document. This, this was a great learning and something that we refined over the last three months and that we are now able to use on all of the project. So this is, this is a really interesting time in coordinating the team and how we can work together.

19:00

partisans Cool. Well, two small thoughts of my side. I think one point was in the arts you oftentimes to be as our co founder calls it, your riding the roller coaster while building it. And I think that's actually like the fun part of it that you really like experimenting at the edge. I would love to, if you could also share what other tools beyond zoom are using to also really get creative together. Because I think zoom is a great way it rather really also tells you can see everybody how to listen carefully. But in a way I experienced for example, recently, with event design collective a great collaboration on neural, are there any other tools that you could recommend and any other hacks from this design process that you could share? How can you really get a creative team digitally together? Because there's some point everybody before was so much that we have to meet in person because digitally is not possible? Right now we see it's actually possible in some ways I experienced it actually. And it gets more creative because it is so visual and also like you, you had directly perfectly documented which is also like sometimes for me a big advantage that like from I love posters and these things from design, think about sometimes like mural and these tools are really like, so good. So please, yeah, share a bit of this hex with us.

20:21

Well, I think, you know, personally, I think

23:56

Yeah, the speed the speed is so interesting how we can collaborate Actually how it visualizes the the power of CO creation. You mentioned that at the core, you're focusing on creating experiences and around the experience you you ride, you create a story. And then you you think, would this be digital? Would this be analog or you also mentioned, you understand bellroy as a hybrid company as like a hybrid thinking approach?

24:26

Yeah, I mean, you know, for us,

27:57

Yeah, that that sounds totally at the end. Then you can, on the one hand, also have a live audience but also reach, reach bigger crowds. And in a way, I find it interesting. How do you in a way engage them with different formats, but also bring them the like some some sensations that will be the big challenge. on LinkedIn, we've been in touch when we reconnected about the power of rituals, and also the importance of rituals, as especially in these digital formats, how do you think about all rituals in storytelling approaches, but also, what is your body of vision for rituals, especially in the digital space wouldn't be when we can't kind of like, spatially feed each other, but rather just digitally are connected?

28:45

Yeah, I mean, this is the kind of research that I'm doing right now. Something that we also started in March during the COVID. lockdown is you know, we get asked all the time to come up with mass audience ceremony targeting mass audiences. And I've done you know, probably like 20 or 30 of them in my career, like which of which are least one year long projects for major activation. And, you know, I think you get to a point where you say, Okay, what are we actually achieving here? You know? Is this legitimately something where people can feel a part of participants, you know, on or are we just creating, you know, a kind of Mirage, you know, of participation.

33:30

validating values to like kind of to align, in a way align, but also created calm minds to concentration, calm feeling. I think that's what what it's what it's about and it feels for me so much more tangible if you're really in a room with these with these persons. On one hand, I'd like to ask you, if you create this experience, is it How, how to tell you? How fixed is the idea what happens with the spectator like how least like for don't do sometimes we feel that for our storytelling approach, it's also to leave some open space for the audience to project to maybe start their own story tend to, to ignite their own imaginary or imaginative motor. Well, how do you how do you think like how, how guided has this journey to be? And where are the spaces of where it can kind of open up a little bit and you, you let space for an own dynamic?

34:33

Yeah, I mean, I get down to whatever, you know, who is ever creating what they're creating and what they want that user journey to be? I mean, for me, personally, I hate feeling too lost in an experience if I, if I feel like I'm given too much freedom and not enough guidance, you know, you have a tendency to feel a bit lost and then you're questioning Okay, how am I meant to feel loss, or is this just a kind of, you know, a gap in the in the system. But I'm all for, you know, we're pushing a lot, you know, immersive experiences, and you know, this kind of scavenger hunt style where we create a trail of crumbs for people to join the dots and build their own adventure. And I think the art within this world is to create enough thing that you can grab on to, but also not be completely lost and dismayed if you lose the trail. So it's kind of this delicate balance of giving people enough, but also, you know, accepting that they might, you know, fall off the off the track or lose interest, but they should still feel comfortable that they could jump back on at any time. And that's the thing I was telling you. Some people want to, you know, race into the interactive elements that you give them others are happy to watch other people have that experience. That's enough for them. But as long as they feel like they know that they have that choice, you know, and then they can stop a start and that they can still follow. That is really important. And then optionally, well,

36:13

now that sounds sounds like a good approach because it's, it's true as a creative. Sometimes you sing Yeah, you'll want to engage with people more but some are actually pretty alright in the theater seat and kind of like taking it from a consumer point of view and just say, hey, that's, that's fine from you how much interaction you actually want and maybe it will be for the future even more important to really understand what what is the need of the people, what do they want, and then they want to give them possibilities and, and how to find out who's down for the journey, who's rather than taking the right.

36:45

And this is what we do a lot within the creative prototyping process because, of course, you know, with not everybody is alike. I'm more extrovert, my wife. It's more introvert. You know, coming in the team where you will you Play you know, let's let's workshop this knock on the table of this work some people will instantly say well I would never do that, you know, if I was there attending I would never do that because that's that's their you know their personality and there are restrictions and then your title or something which can also meet their needs and find a balance where there's a bit of something for everybody

37:23

Well, I i've been lately research more about flow experiences. You as a circus performer also might know from like, juggling doing acrobatics to come into these states. And my thesis is in a way that the future of the bandstand will also have to try to bring as many of the, as many persons of the crowd into this flow experience which is the quiet individual state, some probably more mindful floors, some are more into like this extroverted, extroverted room, you will actually like First of all, are you familiar with this flow experience and with the state of flow, and do you also integrate Designing around flow into your into your project or is this something you could agree on? That flow will be an important metric for for the future of events?

38:10

Yeah, well, I mean, flows. flow comes in all different packages and, you know, in terms of I've seen, I've seen that's kind of the miracle of a really moving, live feed or performance experience where that electricity or dynamic in the air, you know, you feel like you have the crowd and everybody's on the edge of their seats, you know, you've really captured that audience and the same thing the audience really feels when the, when the car or the, you know, the truth is in this click, and all moving as one entity. That's the magic of theater, really, or the magic of life. performance. So yeah, I mean, of course, I understand that I'm also deep, deep into meditation, you know, as a form of, first of all, stopping my mind, you know, from, from working all day and all night. But secondly, as an inspiration for creative impulses. And for me, that's a flow I get into every morning and every afternoon when I do those sessions is to reconnect, basically. And I think, you know, you can feel like you're on a flow when you're in a kind of anxiety driven adrenaline, but for me, I've seen a distinction that, you know, what I what I used to do in my 20s and 30s. Now, I see that as really disruptive, you know, and the flow is actually finding peace and calming the thoughts and the new stuff that comes was quite remarkable. But I wouldn't tell anybody how to get in or out of that flow. I think that's kind of an individual thing. And it's questionable if you can even put a kind of, let's say, formula on how to achieve that in live performance, because I think there's so much involved like a sporting game, you know, where the football fans are willing that ball to go in one side of the net. There's no formula to calculate how that's achievable. It's a dynamic between walk on stage and what's what's watching or participating.

40:45

Well, yeah, we might need some more brain scanning and more technology. But then in the end, I think, I think it's a state that Yeah, sometimes it's happened to you, you can if you try to enforce it, it might be even harder to get into it. So yeah, sometimes the magic Yeah, you mentioned that there's this miracle happening and maybe exactly because it is a miracle makes us so trying to achieve it. But sometimes the magic happens if you then release and then and then and half ignored. Yeah. Yeah. So lucky enough. I tried too hard and then and then it's there. Well, you mentioned a bit about your creative routine about meditation. Do you have some some hacks for our listeners? How do you get into your creative mind? One? What are the rituals and the routines that you established for yourself? In order to Yeah, to see beyond and create these these masterpieces?

41:37

Yeah, I mean, I don't think I have, like, all the answers for anybody. I think, for myself. I tend to get a bit obsessive about projects when I'm working on them. So my I'll be, you know, prototyping 24 seven in my mind, until I feel like I've got the solution, you know, and that means like, really Going through every possible scenario about why something may or may not work, and you know, what, what would be great about that? And what would what could potentially fail and that's exhausting, you know, and that's, that's something that I really use meditation now to switch off, you know, just stop that kind of crazy obsessive thought. But what's great is the meditation kind of creates space, there were a lot of those doubt, you know, or solutions that you're searching for. resolve themselves and that's, that's really amazing. You know that that's an That's an incredible tool, which I would highly recommend everybody uses. Soon as you create that space in your head. Suddenly, things become much more tangible, you know, and there's clarity about how you can fix things with with little Fs. So, I would say that that's one major thing and also which goes hand in And with that is about giving yourself enough space, you know, allowing yourself yourself gaps in the day to to let your mind wander and you know, think about things that you're not just thinking about under stress or because of a time deadline or time restriction. That's usually helpful. Everybody else will get influenced from different areas. For me, music is a huge inspiration. We have great pool of talented people here. We're always throwing stuff on the table saying, Hey, this is cool. That's interesting. Likewise, for me seeing something online and you know, handing it over to another department say, Hey, have a look at that. What can we make of it? But I must say often, I'll see something. Someone will show me something and I'll think immediately Ah, that's cool. But you know, what would be really cool is If it was used, like, you know, and find a new use for that idea reappropriating technology or you know, ideas in using a different way cross industry influences for example stuff that doesn't belong in a on stage or in an experience fleeing into an experience. So it's hugely important. So yeah,

44:26

that kind of rewiring or reconnecting the dots. I also am a big fan of you see sometimes something and then you connect it in a different browser, the different technology in a different approach and then it really unfolds in a totally new way.

44:44

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, using something that was previously just a tool and and adapting it to your your purposes and, you know, exhausting its potential basically

44:56

looking at how many different ways that can be used to store Not in a way it's the same with technology technology is maybe right now it's shifting a bit because technology used to be not nice to have is not the right word, but he needed but it should be not too too permanent too. too, too visual that should just be there and work nicely to guide the experience. But on the technology, but on the technological horizon, what kind of trends Do you see that will really like disrupt this whole industry in a new way? Is there a rvr artificial intelligence what what things do you see happening and converging currently?

45:40

Well, yeah, I mean, of course, we are. We have been since a couple of years using You know, a lot of augmented and mixed reality tools for for various uses within. Yeah, you know, brand experience client client presentations, things like nice Again, I think those tools aren't necessarily the answer to creativity. But what you know, being able to take your, with a client pitch or presentation and let the client experience that in virtual reality is a game changer, you know, that they can stand now in front of the building where you're going to do your events. And they can experience what you're going to do there as a as someone in the front row of the audience on the night. This is what we're doing. Now. That's how we were taking the work to the client. So they can say, yes, this is exactly what I want, or you know that I imagined something different. Yeah, this is just stuff to get really excited about. I think you know about the ability in depth, you can tell the story and immerse the person within that world. And those tools are all making More and more profitable. But again, I think it's like, how can those tools be used creatively? You know, how are they helping us tell more complex story? Or how is that allowing us to dive more emotionally into an experience? Because just having it for an effect is, is like seeing an explosion in a film for no reason. You know, if you haven't built up the dramatic effect, the explosion has very little consequence. So yeah, but it's interesting times for tech, particularly now with with the pivoting going on to digitally then how we can create a user journey and certainly how we can create you know, reach with online experiences, and you know, and visual storytelling is really, really exciting.

47:52

Now heard the term reasonably mass customization so that it not just reaching a big big audience, but still making a This experience in a way individual and, and I think that Yeah, we just probably at the starting point of this journey where this is, is leading to when I was looking through your biography, the symphony have now popped up. And I think it would be worthwhile for our listeners as well to hear a little bit how this project like was developed by you 2018 and a bit the vision behind it and how you're actually right now, I think you're also bringing it into a new dimension.

48:32

Yeah.

48:34

Now, it's funny, I mean, you know, I've never worked really in producing films before and my longest friend and collaborator in Berlin, Massimo and I started a new company, Apple studio, which was kind of serving as a guinea pig, kind of, let's say For the creative projects that came between us that didn't fit into either of our companies that simply have now was one of those that was kind of a passion project that we started that was initially supported. We were given some some support from Audi we wanted to make this documentation of Berlin before it became overdeveloped and show you know, this kind of eclectic subculture of Berlin as well as look at all the you know the the architecture like going inside every theater and cinema and you know, historic building, because every time you turn around you know, in Berlin another building is gone or something, you know, a block of flats gone out for all the holes have been filled in that happens so rapidly. So, we that project has been serviced apartments, type of time capsule for the Berlin that we really admired. And you know, you experience over the last 10 years. And yeah, we we, we have the idea to create a kind of symphonic film inspired by Symphony de Graaff start, you know, the film from the 1930s, which was one of the first symphonic films which looked at the city as an organism. So a bit like, Baraka, we know, which came in the 90s. During a lot of these wide camera shots, looking at, you know, people flowing into the city in the morning and was kind of 12 hours of the daytime was meant to be happening over 12 hours, showing people through industry work, you know, home life, how the streets were moving, and of course, you know, in that process, man, documented a lot of architecture and how the city looked in

53:44

That sounds amazing, too well, especially for the for the future generations to allow these these time travels, then. Yeah, in times when everything gets so much more digital digitalized. And we might have these these head mounted devices that really like we will sometimes it is to, to hold the essence of the moment. And I think that's what I understand from the from the product to also not be too much in the past not be too much in the future, but also take this moment in time and, and try to capture them in for everybody. For anybody it might seem a bit different, but to yet to capture this essence.

54:23

Yeah, I think that's the magic of, of symphony of now, from Berlin because we shot this in the summer of 2017. And it's already appeared in several installations, where they've compared you know, a few films like two or three short films, which I've documented Berlin over the years, starting with Symphony, the diverse start, and it's already being referred to as a reference of that time and actually if you if you're looking at, it already feels like decades ago, you know, about the style of the film and the you know, the The fashion, you know, the look of the city, it already has changed remarkably. So, in 1020 years, when we look back, it's really gonna hold that time capsule status.

55:14

And in a way how I understand is could be as well an impulse for creative is one of the artists in wherever and to also try to capture the power of this moment. That's, yeah, that's amazing that you're there you have the chance to bring this to different cities. what's good, what's the next city on? On the bucket list that you're trying to? Well, you know,

55:36

we're not looking at major major city so we're always kind of shooting for the underdog. So without giving a full we're basically saying like, you know, in France, it wouldn't be Paris. It'd be more like my Say, for example. And yeah, we have we have a whole bunch in mind right now where we're in production design. We've still got a ways to go before we, you know, start saying, Okay, next city is x. But yeah, we want to show music, music driven cities, we want to show cities which have, you know, a kind of hidden story that needs to be told and, or, you know, something, in essence, which needs to be captioned before it disappears. So a bit in line with what with what we did in Berlin. But let's see that more and more to come. We only just found out we got this funding. So we're really happy about that. The first time we've applied very grateful to the medium board for supporting that project.

56:41

Wow. Well, well, thanks so much for forgiveness inside, especially beyond the better royal part of work that you did you find that you make the time for your passion project because I think that's, that's what being creative being an artist is about to stay as Steve Jobs would advance. Stay hungry, stay, stay foolish to really follow your passion in this way. Is there anything else that you would like to share with the listeners your your credo, something for kind of like upcoming artists how they can find their way in these unprecedented times?

57:16

Yeah, I mean,

1:00:19

Cool. Well, thanks Brandon for sharing all these personal insights, these professional advice as well because it's really the time where we should reach out we should, on the one hand, listened to ourselves, but then reach out to the person to connect us and then create movements. That was, for me a super inspiring conversation, the topics that we covered from the Australian through because we started off towards the immersive experience that you create how technology is shaping and changing the game to these advices I think I thank you so much for taking the time. And we will post more info about you in the show notes too. Yeah. To also reach out to To brand and to see how the symphony of now is Yeah, coming to different cities and how Battle Royale is, is driving these this creative pivot and I hope to meet you in person soon at the shows wherever whenever

1:01:15

autumn thank Fabian greatly for doing this.