0:00

Welcome to the sense-making in a changing world podcast, where we explore the kind of thinking we need to navigate a positive way forward. I’m your host Morag Gamble.. Permaculture Educator, and Global Ambassador, Filmmaker, Eco villager, Food Forester, Mother, Practivist and all around lover of thinking, communicating and acting regeneratively. For a long time it's been clear to me that to shift trajectory to a thriving one planet way of life we first need to shift our thinking, the way we perceive ourselves in relation to nature, self, and community is the core. So this is true now more than ever. And even the way change is changing, is changing. Unprecedented changes are happening all around us at a rapid pace. So how do we make sense of this? To know which way to turn, to know what action to focus on? So our efforts are worthwile and nourishing and are working towards resilience, regeneration, and reconnection. What better way to make sense than to join together with others in open generative conversation. In this podcast, I'll share conversations with my friends and colleagues, people who inspire and challenge me in their ways of thinking, connecting and acting. These wonderful people thinkers, doers, activists, scholars, writers, leaders, farmers, educators, people whose work informs permaculture and spark the imagination of what a post-COVID, climate-resilient, socially just future could look like. Their ideas and projects help us to make sense in this changing world to compost and digest the ideas and to nurture the fertile ground for new ideas, connections and actions. Together we'll open up conversations in the world of permaculture design, regenerative thinking community action, earth, repair, eco-literacy, and much more. I can't wait to share these conversations with you. Over the last three decades of personally making sense of the multiple crises we face I always returned to the practical and positive world of permaculture with its ethics of earth care, people care and fair share. I've seen firsthand how adaptable and responsive it can be in all contexts from urban to rural, from refugee camps to suburbs. It helps people make sense of what's happening around them and to learn accessible design tools, to shape their habitat positively and to contribute to cultural and ecological regeneration. This is why I've created the Permaculture Educators Program to help thousands of people to become permaculture teachers everywhere through an interactive online dual certificate of permaculture design and teaching. We sponsor global Permayouth programs, women's self help groups in the global South and teens in refugee camps. So anyway, this podcast is sponsored by the Permaculture Education Institute and our Permaculture Educators Program. If you'd like to find more about permaculture, I've created a four-part permaculture video series to explain what permaculture is and also how you can make it your livelihood as well as your way of life. We'd love to invite you to join our wonderfully inspiring, friendly and supportive global learning community. So I welcome you to share each of these conversations, and I'd also like to suggest you create a local conversation circle to explore the ideas shared in each show and discuss together how this makes sense in your local community and environment. I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I meet and speak with you today.. The Gubbi Gubbi people and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging. I'd

3:27

like to welcome Emma-Kate Rose to

3:29

the show. Emma-Kate is someone who

3:32

I have long admired and been

3:34

inspired by. I'm

3:36

just going to read some of it .. I

3:42

mean, apart from being the most amazing

3:45

mother and climate activist

3:47

and speaker and social advocate,

3:50

Emma Kate is also, she leads

3:52

Food Connect. Um, and I'll let you

3:54

maybe tell us a bit more about Food Connect soon,

3:57

because that's an amazing part of

3:59

this whole concept about changing our

4:01

food system and thinking differently about the

4:04

future of food and resilience and community

4:06

and economy. Kate is also the

4:09

executive director of the Food Connect foundation. And

4:12

is the chair of the Queensland Social

4:14

Enterprise Council, project manager with

4:19

the Next Economy, all about

4:21

transitioning communities, u m, from,

4:23

u h, into l ike into a post fossil

4:26

fuel economy, r eally, I think

4:28

is where you're going with that. Um, I

4:31

know I've missed something. Oh, also a fellow of

4:33

The Yunus Centre at Griffith

4:36

University and something

4:39

else that's really remarkable, u

4:41

m, that I think h as just opened up

4:44

a huge new conversation is what you did recently

4:46

with equity crowdfunding. And,

4:50

u m, you know, do you, y ou're not only

4:52

doing food differently, u

4:54

h, y ou're doing business completely differently.

4:57

And I think what this, why

4:59

I really wanted to, to have this conversation

5:02

apart from the fact that I love talking with you every time I talk

5:04

to you, I feel so uplifted, but

5:06

there's so much about what

5:08

you do and how you do it. T hat I think

5:10

is what we need to hear right now. L

5:13

ike, as, as you know, right

5:15

now, as we're speaking, we're i n, in t he COVID-19

5:18

lockdown a nd, and there's

5:20

some really, u

5:23

h, important lessons that you've

5:25

experienced over the last 14

5:27

years in Food Connect that can help,

5:30

u m, in their, in their recovery thinking differently about

5:32

how we move forward from this point.

5:35

U m, but beyond COVID

5:38

it's also, I think a really

5:40

important thing to think about as we're recovering

5:42

well, not as we're recovering as we address climate

5:46

change, you know, the type of business that

5:48

you're doing is more resilient

5:50

and adaptable and flexible and caring

5:53

and supporting

5:55

local enterprise and local farmers. So

5:59

maybe we could just start at the beginning possibly

6:01

just tell us a little bit about what Food Connect

6:03

is about, because I think this as a foundation

6:05

of what you do is just an extraordinary

6:07

project.

6:07

Yeah. Oh thank

6:10

you so Morag. It's really lovely to

6:12

, to be , um, on this

6:14

interview. I feel very honored to

6:16

be asked actually, because I've admired

6:20

of your work and

6:22

I 'm actually have convinced my daughter to start participating

6:25

in s ome o f, some of your programs

6:27

for youth. And she was devastated the other

6:29

day when she missed the f ive o 'clock call.

6:30

She could join next week! It's

6:35

going to be 50 people

6:38

from a refugee camp in Kenya

6:41

w aiting to join i n t o. So..yeah, y

6:45

eah.

6:45

She'd love that. Um

6:47

, yeah. So, you know, kudos to

6:50

you as well. I think, you know, in your own way,

6:52

you're making huge changes

6:54

in the world and the ripple effect of

6:56

what you do can be felt way beyond

6:58

your , um, you know, beautiful

7:01

location at Crystal Waters. Um

7:04

, yeah, so Food Connect , um

7:06

, uh, for those who don't

7:09

know , um, a lot of people in Brisbane,

7:11

Southeast Queensland has heard of Food Connect. Um,

7:13

but I suppose there are areas that haven't,

7:17

it was started by my partner, Rob Pekin,

7:19

who was an ex -dairy farmer. He

7:22

lost his farm , um, back in the late 90s due

7:24

to drought , and overbearing

7:27

banks and ended up losing his

7:29

fourth generation farm. And through that process

7:30

actually... He

7:33

didn't even know the people who drank his milk. Like

7:35

he was, he , he was part of an industrialized

7:38

food system that was so disconnected

7:41

from, you know, between the grower and the consumer

7:43

or the HR as we like to call vehicle , um,

7:46

that he just thought there's got to be a better way.

7:49

And so , um, he came across the concept

7:51

of community supported agriculture, which

7:54

actually recently I just found out

7:57

was always known to originate from versions

7:59

of it from Japan and Switzerland, but it was

8:01

actually started in the sixties by

8:04

black farmers in Alabama as

8:08

an, as a mutual , um, you

8:10

know , uh , wave for

8:12

ADAS and growers to support each other

8:15

particularly through hard times.

8:17

So , um, so community

8:19

supported agriculture is basically a concept

8:22

where a whole bunch of community members

8:24

pay up front a subscription for

8:26

a season's worth of healthy fruit

8:28

and veg with a focus

8:30

on organic and natural farming

8:32

methods and regenerative farm methods. Um,

8:35

and it sort of taken off as a concept

8:37

and was always traditionally just one farmer in a bunch

8:39

of community. Um, and when

8:41

Rob that system

8:43

for a number of years, he landed in Brisbane and he realized

8:46

that actually it wasn't really that relevant

8:48

for Brisbane because we've all got access

8:51

to anything we want whenever we want here. Um,

8:54

so how can we build local food

8:56

system that has the principles

8:58

of community supported agriculture as the foundation,

9:01

but just operationally includes

9:03

a lot more than just one farmer and

9:06

a lot more Asians . Um , so we

9:08

now have , um, been going

9:11

for 14, 15

9:13

years , um, as a bit of an experiment

9:15

and we're still here. Um , but we

9:18

always knew that we didn't want to be a,

9:20

not for profit or a charity model of food

9:22

enterprise. We really wanted it to be a business

9:24

and for it to stand on its own two feet

9:26

economically because we knew that that

9:28

would be the most resilient way of

9:31

hanging around for the long term. Um,

9:34

being able to engage , um

9:36

, now 80 farmers and

9:38

40 food makers who

9:41

are all locally sourced. So we sort

9:43

of drew a circle around Brisbane at no more

9:45

than sort of, you know, 400

9:47

Ks depending on what season it is.

9:50

So we're very lucky here in Southeast

9:52

Queensland, we have lots of microclimates

9:54

the beautiful stone fruit growing areas up at

9:57

Stanford. We've got , um, you know, amazing

10:00

Mediterranean veggies , um

10:02

, coming up from Gimpy in Bundaberg

10:05

and the Mary Valley that

10:07

we've got some, you know , all the lovely

10:09

, um, you know , fresh greens

10:11

and whatever much closer to the city. Um

10:14

, and so , um, so

10:16

we've been able to operate a local food

10:18

system now for that long, and we've, withstood

10:21

the JFC we've withstood

10:23

the Brisbane 2011 floods

10:25

, um , which we actually thought the

10:28

local food system would fail during that time

10:30

because all of Southeast Queensland was affected

10:32

by those floods. But because of

10:34

the small nature of our farm , um,

10:38

their operations , um, didn't

10:40

require a big infrastructure

10:43

or massive machinery to harvest.

10:45

They could get out into their fields really quickly. They,

10:48

they knew the back roads , um , when the highways

10:50

were cut off so that they could get the produce to

10:52

us. And I think throughout that whole

10:54

period of the floods, we only lost one

10:56

day of productivity. And then at

10:58

the same time managed to kind of galvanize

11:01

the community to go and feed while

11:04

they were cleaning up Brisbane as well. So..

11:06

I also remember something about that time too

11:08

, when , um , I

11:11

remember Rob talking about how, you

11:13

know, we were a few days away in Brisbane

11:16

from actually running out of food

11:18

in the industrial food system, however,

11:21

in the local food system,

11:23

it really highlighted the resilience

11:25

studies when embraced

11:29

the local food system. I have a sense

11:31

too , that you're feeling that now

11:34

that there's much greater resilience

11:36

in this local food system. And maybe you could talk

11:38

a little bit about how it's responding

11:42

right now because it's quite an extraordinary

11:44

time.

11:44

Yeah. Interesting.

11:47

Um, so it's, it's funny because we've been able

11:49

to prove the model , um, through

11:51

these crisis points. And

11:53

, um, and then it's funny, people

11:56

, um, they drop

11:58

off, they go away, they enter into , back

12:00

into the business as usual food

12:02

system, and we just hold our

12:05

heads above water, you know , always

12:07

waiting for the next crisis. We

12:10

always knew that, you know, we would be

12:12

ready.. And that we've designed

12:15

a system , um, not just by community

12:17

supported agriculture principles, but also by permaculture

12:20

principles where you know, that

12:22

there was enough diversity in

12:25

our group of farmers , um,

12:27

where if there was a crisis in one geographical

12:29

area, we could rely on another in

12:31

our local area , um, that if

12:34

, you know , um, someone had issues

12:36

with growing something that's another farmer

12:38

could help them out. You know, we tried to encourage

12:40

as much mutual cooperation as possible

12:43

amongst our suppliers, particularly in

12:45

an industry that's traditionally, you know, very competitive

12:47

and they often don't share information. But

12:50

, um, yeah, the , the COVID pandemic

12:53

has really brought a new light into

12:56

the situation where we haven't

12:58

really had a climate crisis.

13:01

Although you could argue that that COVID

13:03

is a climate crisis in terms of

13:05

its macro context,

13:08

but , um , with our

13:10

local food supply, what we've seen is that

13:12

, um, when we had food disappearing

13:15

off the shelves of supermarkets , um,

13:18

that, you know, our sales quadrupled

13:20

and we were able to meet the supply without

13:23

any issues at all. In fact, like

13:26

looking back now with a month

13:28

sort of lockdown in hindsight,

13:31

we were actually underperforming before.

13:34

So we had enough fat in the system to

13:36

meet the challenge and , um

13:38

, and rise to the occasion , um,

13:40

and had to employ more staff.

13:42

And we employed those staff basically

13:45

from community. So there are enough people

13:47

around the food connection here in Brisbane

13:50

who knew us, who were

13:52

sacked pretty much straightaway . As soon as lockdown

13:54

came in, came knocking on the door and said,

13:57

I've got a van I can help with deliveries.

13:59

Um, you know, sign me up.

14:03

It's all that sort of that , what we call

14:05

social capital, like really kicks in

14:07

in times of crisis. And

14:10

that's what we've found in terms of not

14:12

just our food supply, but also the

14:14

way we operate the business.

14:19

So beyond the food connect model

14:21

of the linking between farmers, how

14:25

you do the bigger picture

14:27

as well, that I think is , is fantastic.

14:29

You know, like your, your model

14:32

you offer is open source. If

14:34

other people wanted to do this as , as

14:36

well that you went out and paid it for

14:39

to help other people set up systems. So

14:41

that itself is a mind

14:44

shift in how you operate business.

14:48

And then the other one too, about, y ou k now, y

14:51

our, y our ownership models. So the way that

14:53

you bought the building

14:55

that you're in, and that's a completely different

14:59

model in itself of how

15:01

you, how you own, or,

15:03

o r collectively share own this

15:05

space that you're in. Could you maybe talk, that's

15:08

two big questions there, but maybe p ick one.

15:11

I think it's a , it's a really, it's the context

15:15

m akes what you're doing even more incredibly

15:18

amazing. So

15:23

many different models that you are, l

15:26

ike y ou s ay, y ou're experimenting with and finding

15:28

that actually really work and help

15:30

to create that resilience

15:33

that can, that can keep things most stable.

15:35

Security isn't having

15:38

a massive, great wealth or massive insurance

15:39

security is like you just said,

15:42

the community capital,

15:44

social capital, and so

15:46

much more to it. A nd I think it's a fascinating

15:50

experiment, y ou k now, i s actually a thing

15:53

too.

15:54

Very real.

16:00

It's very real. Um, yeah.

16:02

Look, I'll , um , talk a little bit about

16:04

the open source stuff. So we always knew,

16:06

you know, we don't own this information. We've

16:08

borrowed all these ideas from

16:11

things that resonate with us , um

16:13

, and the reading that

16:15

we do and the people that we've met

16:18

and spoken to all over the world.

16:21

Um, and , um, and

16:23

so we just, we just designed

16:25

in what we really liked, you

16:27

know, what the sort of future that we wanted to

16:29

see. And so , um,

16:32

not all of it, worst of course, like some

16:34

of it felt terribly. Um,

16:36

and that's one of the things that we're

16:38

, I guess most proud of is that initially

16:41

when Food Connect started, there was no software

16:43

around really meet the business rules

16:45

in terms of, u m, the amount

16:48

of farmers that we're supplying a

16:50

nd they, u m, the way we deliver

16:53

out and engage our customers

16:55

in terms of, y ou k now, having an online subscription

16:57

and regular, a regular payment, u

17:00

m, you could choose from like a six weeks, six

17:03

months, three months, y ou k now, a whole, you could even

17:06

subscribe for a whole year u p f

17:08

ront with your f ood, which was kind of nifty

17:10

in terms of o ur c ash f low, u

17:12

m, but also helps families budget,

17:15

u m, with t heir food budget as well. So i f you've got that

17:17

locked in, you don't have to worry about

17:19

it for the rest of the, u m, and

17:22

so, u m, so we

17:24

had to find, so one of our customers, long story

17:26

short designed some software for

17:28

us that we u sed for quite a number of years.

17:31

And as groups from around Australia came

17:33

and visited food connect to find out how

17:35

w e did things. U m, we also gave

17:37

them the software to take with them because

17:40

we knew that it wouldn't work if they had to build

17:42

something themselves, you know, as we all know, software

17:44

is incredibly expensive to develop. U

17:46

m, so that eventually transformed a,

17:50

u m, u h, u

17:52

h, a not for profit. We ended

17:54

up giving it away c ause we had to make

17:56

a decision as a business. D o we want to become a software

17:58

company? W ould y ou be w ant to become, just

18:00

Food Connect and b e with our community

18:03

and t o share the ideas. U m, a

18:05

nd the second thing a ppealed to us the most. So,

18:08

u m, so we gave the software away, u

18:10

m, to, a nd not-for-profit called the open food network.

18:14

U m, and that not for profit has

18:16

now spread globally. And

18:18

I was just on the phone to [inaudible] and

18:20

last week, she's b ased in Victoria and

18:22

she leads the organization with her partner Serenity

18:25

Hill. And, u m, they

18:27

used to get around 10 inquiries a

18:29

month, u m, the new

18:31

farmers and, u m, food

18:34

hubs, u m, to use the software.

18:36

And they're now getting 10 a day.

18:38

Um , so , so

18:43

what shift are you seeing globally,

18:46

or even globally as a result

18:48

of what's happening? Like , are you seeing data

18:52

?

18:52

We're seeing a lot of , um , small

18:54

communities , um, going,

18:57

okay, how can we do our food

18:59

better in this circumstance? And a lot of farmers,

19:01

you know, they've lost markets in this pandemic,

19:04

the whole tourism and hospitality

19:06

sectors have literally shut down . So

19:09

they've had to find alternative markets as well.

19:12

Um , and so they have turned to open food

19:14

network in order to sell direct to their

19:16

local community , um, and,

19:19

you know, start developing those skills

19:21

of, you know , um, marketing

19:23

and talking to customers

19:25

and , um, engaging with community.

19:28

So that's been, that's been quite amazing.

19:31

Um , and yeah, it's , uh, it's

19:34

something that we're very excited by

19:36

because what it does is , um

19:39

, the software allows the farmer to

19:41

transparently engage with their eater

19:43

, um, every step along the value

19:45

and supply chain. Um, so, you

19:47

know, the customers know exactly what they're paying

19:49

for that the food system is basically democratized.

19:53

Um , it's all trans.. Made transparent.

19:56

Um, when it traditionally has

19:58

relied on being very opaque

20:01

and mysterious in terms of how the food

20:03

gets from the farm, you know , to

20:05

the supermarket shelf..

20:06

This um , system

20:09

, are you finding much

20:12

support from, I

20:14

guess, government or other organizations

20:18

to support your

20:21

... oh your laugh kind of answers that question

20:25

because you know , we're looking at, you

20:27

know, is it recovery seeing

20:30

what you're saying? You know, the impact

20:33

for farmers impact the community local

20:36

businesses, and that

20:39

it makes sense that

20:41

any restrictions that there are, that

20:43

kind of make it difficult for this level

20:45

of the food system to happen , uh

20:48

, need to be lifted and

20:50

that they actually be shifting subsidies

20:53

from industrial farming to these

20:55

localized farming systems. And

20:57

are you seeing any shift in that yet? Or is

21:00

there , you know , what voice are you hearing actually

21:02

helping to promote

21:04

that as something that could happen?

21:07

Or is it not something that you want, would

21:09

you rather just be an underground mycelium

21:12

network of independent non

21:16

non-controlled?

21:16

Yeah. Well,

21:18

there's always a danger isn't there when you start

21:20

putting things in the hands of the higher powers,

21:23

I guess. And so there, isn't an element

21:25

of like, no, let's keep this underground, but

21:27

then what it's not doing

21:29

is reaching the most vulnerable , um

21:31

, that needed it the most. And so that's where

21:33

I feel like the government can play a role

21:36

or philanthropy. So

21:38

, um, we haven't been very

21:40

good today in being able to speak

21:42

or walk the talk to investors, philanthropists,

21:45

and governments . So we're starting to learn to

21:47

do that. Um, and I do

21:49

feel like there is a role for

21:52

that , um, for those

21:54

systems and that knowledge to come

21:56

into play, to help those marginalized

21:59

communities, especially , um,

22:02

and also, but not, not do it

22:04

in a way that's sort of top down really to do

22:06

it in a way where government gets out

22:08

of the way and their role is to really facilitate

22:11

, um, you know, local communities doing it

22:13

for themselves. And that's where technology

22:15

can play a really positive role.

22:16

So , um, the

22:19

, um, you know , idea of working

22:21

with , with , um , people who, who

22:23

need greater access to food and,

22:25

and doing that to where you are and

22:29

as being a platform for being

22:32

seen as well, because

22:34

you're in a hub and you have a lot

22:36

of other enterprises That

22:38

exists within the hub that you've created. And one

22:40

of those is also about the redistribution

22:43

of food. It feels

22:45

to me like the way that you're

22:48

creating this sort of mutual network

22:50

, your visibility and power to ripple

22:57

out changing the food system is

22:59

every day getting more and more

23:01

because it's saying that the success of

23:04

it that have worked , that it works. It's

23:07

not about the farmer.. not

23:10

just about the consumer, or it's not just about

23:12

food aid. It is all of those things

23:16

altogether in a response to climate, in

23:18

a response to, you know

23:20

, our current situation, you know, response to, to

23:23

drought in a response to the

23:25

decimation of small farms in Australia. Response to

23:28

all of those things simultaneously and many,

23:31

many more. So , um,

23:33

you know, just maybe if you could speak a little

23:36

bit about that, the food

23:38

hub.

23:41

So one of the things that , um,

23:43

a lot of people probably , um

23:46

, forget about the food system is that it's so

23:48

complex. Um,

23:50

you know, and, but that's also

23:52

the beauty of it as well. I mean, there's

23:54

so, so many roles for different

23:56

people to clay , um,

23:59

particularly in a positive response to COVID

24:01

, um, the pandemic , as well as climate

24:03

change in the food system. Um,

24:06

we were talking to one of our farmers , um

24:08

, this week, actually he does custard apples

24:10

, um , on the North Coast of New South

24:12

Wales, but he's also a CSI statistician,

24:16

and he's written reports over the years that

24:18

haven't really even seen the light of day,

24:21

which basically confirm

24:23

that, you know, the CO2 emissions

24:26

that's attributed to the globalized food

24:28

system , um, is

24:31

more likely 50%

24:33

of global emissions than the sort

24:35

of 30% that's often , um, you

24:38

know, put out there in terms of the stats.

24:40

So when you have a look at the food

24:43

system from stage right through

24:45

to the person's height and

24:47

everything in between, particularly the transport

24:49

and distribution, we

24:52

sort of connect decided to

24:54

focus on the distribution side of things,

24:56

because if you localize distribution

24:59

and supply , um,

25:01

then you're building a lot more transparency

25:03

and equity , um, and relationships.

25:07

Um, you know, it's a relationship based food system

25:09

, um, when it's a localized food system,

25:11

rather than just a transactional one , um,

25:14

when you're looking at long, long supply

25:17

chains in the globalized system

25:19

, um, so recognizing

25:21

how complex the food system is, we wanted to

25:24

invite people into the hub, the

25:26

food connect hub, we call it the food

25:28

connection. Um, so we only

25:30

take up through connect County , takes up a third of the

25:32

space for our own operations.

25:34

And so that, that allows other people

25:37

to come in , um, to

25:39

experiment, do their own experiments

25:41

, um, but also to run their own enterprises

25:43

and not for profits out of the , um,

25:46

by being co located. And that way we can

25:48

have mutual , um,

25:51

conversations. And, and

25:53

I mean, there's not a lot of time to do

25:55

projects together because we're so focused on

25:58

our own operations, but just those

26:00

, um , incidental conversations that

26:02

happen in the hallways on your way to the toilet or the staff

26:04

kitchen or whatever , um , suddenly ideas

26:06

get turned around and , and , um,

26:09

and things happen , um, out

26:11

of those. So , um, so we've got

26:14

Oz harvest there who do food rescue

26:16

, um, and they also acknowledged that,

26:18

you know, food rescue is just addressing

26:20

the symptoms of the lack

26:23

of failure of the larger food system.

26:26

Um, and they're always looking at ways that they can

26:28

introduce programs like food literacy

26:30

and , um, you know, developing

26:32

cooking skills and those sorts of things into

26:34

their programs for marginalized communities,

26:37

which is really exciting. Um,

26:39

we've got a commercial kitchen that's set

26:41

up, which is a community shared kitchen and we rent

26:43

it out by half a day to

26:45

small food entrepreneurs who want

26:47

to test out their products and sell them into the market.

26:51

Um, and they , you know, we , we do

26:53

have a policy that they try and source

26:55

as locally as possible, their

26:57

raw products , um

27:00

, in the processing of their food. And

27:02

we also allowed some space for education

27:05

and events. Um , so when the pandemic

27:07

lifts , um, we'll be able to

27:10

start, you know , sharing , um,

27:13

uh, our event space again with the local community,

27:16

because what we've found is that , um, we've,

27:18

we've spent 14 years shoving messages

27:21

down people's throats about, we really need

27:23

to move to a local food system, and

27:25

you can do that till the cows come home, but

27:27

unless people have an experience , um,

27:31

that's positive , uh

27:33

, then the pennies won't drop.

27:35

So that's why, you know, over the years

27:37

we've taken a lot of our customers out to farms

27:39

on farm tours to meet our farmers and have

27:41

that experience of, of

27:43

what it's like to be a farmer. And they get to, you know,

27:46

look them in the eye and ask them all the questions

27:48

and it's, then that we get the feedback from people

27:50

saying that's when the penny really dropped for

27:52

me. Um , and then with

27:54

the event space, similarly, we invite people

27:57

in and it could just be a wedding or a 40th, or

27:59

, um, you know. Um , and

28:02

they, they're in this industrial space

28:05

in the middle of nowhere in Brisbane. And I,

28:07

and I go , what's this space all about , um,

28:09

and that's when the curiosity leads

28:12

to, well, this is about a local food system.

28:14

And that, that invitation to find

28:16

out more is a , um,

28:19

is a journey for that person. Like it's an individual

28:22

journey , um, to realize

28:25

for themselves that there is another way of doing

28:27

things that's , um, safe,

28:29

nutritious, healthy , um,

28:31

and fun.

28:33

So how

28:39

the message actually does reach

28:43

people at different levels and at what

28:45

point, and that like

28:48

through celebration and through fun and through

28:50

opening up, but still

28:52

being within that context of , of

28:54

the food system, I think

28:56

is really important. Its reminds

28:58

me too about how we learn best just,

29:01

I'm very mindful of it , the moment,

29:03

you know , how our schooling is

29:05

happening, learning is happening

29:08

we're in different contexts . And, you

29:11

know , it happens for us as adults

29:13

too , But I

29:16

want to back to what you

29:18

said about taking people out to farms.

29:20

So you're talking about the impact that that had

29:22

on the consumers, but what are you seeing

29:24

that that's having an impact on the farmers themselves?

29:26

Yeah. So

29:29

one of the things that we always thought

29:32

was the most important thing about setting

29:34

up a local food system was this

29:36

, um, price for

29:38

farmers, because we know that the industrialized food

29:40

system often pays farmers below the cost of

29:42

production. And there's this mantra

29:44

of get big or get out, you know , um

29:46

, that small farmers just can't cut it

29:48

today in today's market. It's just not possible.

29:52

Um, we wanted to prove that

29:54

theory wrong by keeping everything

29:56

laying in the middle as much as possible we're

29:59

able to return a farm prospect

30:01

to farmers that's four times the industrial average.

30:06

So , um, so yeah, we have

30:08

a business rule that we return 40

30:10

to 50 cents in the retail dollar back

30:13

to our farmers.

30:14

Are you saying that it's typically only

30:16

10 cents or

30:18

less sometimes.

30:18

Or less, depending

30:21

on what they grow. Yeah. So

30:23

it's , um, so, so that, that

30:26

triggers farmers to say, Oh my

30:28

God, well then it's all about volume. If

30:30

I'm only going to get 10 cents in the retail

30:33

dollar for this, you know , lettuce or whatever,

30:35

then I've got to grow 5,000

30:38

more lettuces in order to be

30:40

competitive in this market.

30:41

Quantity instead of quality.

30:42

That's right. Yeah. And that's

30:44

where you find people, you know , compromising

30:47

on their growing methods, they start using chemicals,

30:49

they start throwing monocultures. So

30:51

, you know, forget about biodiversity on your farms.

30:54

So , um, so , and that's where you run

30:56

into the environmental problems that we were

30:59

seeing in the food system. Um

31:01

, so, but that, isn't

31:04

the only driving factor. Well, money

31:06

is important. What

31:08

we've found is that just being acknowledged

31:12

for doing a good job is

31:14

just, it's more rewarding than anything.

31:17

And having a whole bunch of people from the city who

31:19

knows nothing about how food is grown

31:22

coming in saying, thank you. Um,

31:26

really does. Um, it

31:29

switches a lot for them, for

31:31

the farmers. And we've had so much amazing

31:34

feedback from them over the years about

31:36

how they would have given up hadn't they had,

31:39

they known that they were feeding those people.

31:41

You know.

31:41

It's not

31:44

just the monetary value , but the cause . The

31:46

messaging has always been particularly with

31:49

even the monetary value that it's

31:51

really what you're doing is really not worth

31:53

that much. You know , if you,

31:55

if you've got any wits about you'd be going

31:58

to the city and getting a real job. Have you

32:07

got the figures on like what's the average age of farmers

32:09

days? And is that the

32:12

kind of farming that you're doing, you're seeing that

32:14

there is a , a new and

32:16

new farmer that's emerging

32:19

or that

32:22

you work with now too .

32:23

So the farms

32:25

we only have about one or two kind of

32:27

what you would call sort of industrial

32:29

scale organic farms on

32:31

our books. And there's sort of like our backup

32:34

plan. If our small farmers

32:36

are having issues, but most

32:38

small, most of our small farmers

32:41

are on , um, you know, very

32:43

small pots. Like it's , it's

32:46

not a lot of land. Um,

32:48

and a lot of them are mixed. So a lot of them are doing

32:50

sort of vertical integration with animals, as

32:52

well as vegetables and keeping

32:54

it nice and small and diverse.

32:56

So if

32:59

people would, you know, have a small

33:01

farm or even a hobby farm, or even some

33:03

really intense kind of urban farm

33:06

and do some kind of, you know, in a way a

33:09

really diverse permaculture design

33:11

on it, that they could then connect in with

33:13

you and start to create a livelihood from their small

33:15

farm.

33:16

Yeah. So we've , we've got that at the moment

33:19

we have about , um,

33:21

we have 80, 80 farmers roughly

33:24

on our books, but in any, any

33:26

given week, we're probably directly

33:30

talking to about 20 or 30, depending

33:32

on the season. Um , and I would

33:34

say about a third of those are now urban

33:36

farmers. So it was a few years

33:38

ago now where we, we , um,

33:41

an honor student came to us from UK saying, I

33:43

want to do a project with you guys. What can I do?

33:45

And we said, we want you to write the Brisbane food

33:48

plan. We

33:50

don't have time to do it. We've got all the ideas, but we don't

33:52

have time to write it. So he did that

33:54

and he looked at Brisbane,

33:56

okay, where should you get your food from Brisbane?

34:00

Um, and he looked at it through the,

34:02

you know, the zones in permaculture. So

34:04

looking at the house, looking at, you know

34:06

, um, Brisbane as the

34:09

zone zero , um , and where

34:11

we should get , um, you know, our fresh greens

34:13

function and should really come from our own backyard.

34:15

So h e had a 10 year plan t hat, you know,

34:17

by the end of the 10 years we were being...

34:20

Most of our customers would be growing their own

34:22

fresh lettuces and h erbs. They wouldn't need to

34:24

go to food connect to buy them. U

34:26

m, and then zone

34:28

one is sort of like the sort

34:31

of harder things to grow harder, vegetables

34:33

and fruits to grow a nd, and so

34:35

on and so forth and, you know, the grains and

34:37

the meat and whatever further out.

34:41

U m, and so

34:43

it's not true to the permaculture

34:45

zoning, but it's a , it's more of

34:47

a guide to think, to get people to

34:50

think about appropriate scale

34:52

and, and uses for,

34:54

for, u m, for the city context.

34:57

Um, but we also u se some other other lenses

35:00

through which we viewed food in Brisbane. So

35:02

we looked at a social justice lens.

35:04

We looked at the environmental impact.

35:07

We looked at, u m, the economic lens,

35:09

like who gets paid for doing what, u

35:11

m, how do we keep the money circulating locally?

35:14

Because, u m, over the

35:16

years, w e've, u m, some of the research

35:18

that we've done, the reading that we've done shows

35:21

that if you can keep money circulating locally,

35:23

you're actually creating a 3 to

35:25

four times multiplier effect compared

35:28

to when you're just putting your money into a supermarket

35:31

a nd o ff into some invisible shareholders.

35:34

So you're actually doing more f or your local economy

35:37

a nd your local community by keeping your dollars local.

35:40

U m, and we also looked at the food system,

35:43

p rison f ood from a health, u

35:45

m, through a preventative health lens. U

35:47

m, and we got some students from Griffith Uni

35:49

nutrition students to analyze

35:52

the average f ood connect customer and their intake

35:54

of fruit and veg compared to, y

35:57

ou k now, conventional Australian citizens

35:59

and what they normally do, the average diet.

36:03

U m, and they found that, you know, just from a preventative

36:05

health point of view, that food connect customers

36:08

c onsume 75% more fruit a nd veg

36:10

than your average Australian.

36:11

That's significant.

36:12

Yeah. It has a huge

36:14

impact on the health system. Um

36:17

, especially when it's grown on

36:19

organic farms with no chemicals. Yeah.

36:21

Wow. Yeah

36:25

. I mean, it just. It's phenomenal

36:27

really, you know you can't

36:29

measure the benefit economically.

36:32

This really can you, because it is , it's

36:36

so inconsistent. And

36:40

so I think, you know , it's ..

36:41

End every piece in it Morag is

36:44

interdependent on the other for

36:46

it to, for it to all be healthy and functioning.

36:48

You've got to address every complex

36:51

piece in the system all the time, and

36:53

that can be really hard. And

36:57

so that's why we've always been open because

36:59

we wanted to share everything we can and everything

37:02

that we know so that

37:04

people can go, Oh, I cn identify

37:06

with that piece in the food system, I'm going to

37:08

take that bit and run with it and create positive

37:10

change through my talents

37:12

or passions ..

37:14

And guess, too that, you know, taking an

37:17

entrepreneurial type approach like

37:19

you were saying, and building in that

37:22

adaptability and the flexibility, and like constantly being

37:24

able to kind of shift and change as

37:27

you go, but having a, being as

37:31

a social entrepreneur, how

37:34

do you say that?

37:36

Social entrepreneur a

37:43

generic.. it's a generic term

37:45

that's used a lot these days. Um , and

37:50

basically , um, anybody

37:53

who's putting planet and people before

37:55

profit, or even on an equal basis

37:58

to profit, let's just

38:00

stop it. Basically.

38:02

It tends the mindset from

38:05

an extractive mindset to regenerative

38:07

mindset. And so most social

38:09

entrepreneurs out there , uh,

38:12

doing business for good. That's basically

38:15

the , the short kind of version of it, but

38:17

essentially that they're wanting

38:19

to use their entrepreneurial skills in

38:22

a way that actually benefits other people

38:25

and the environment , um,

38:28

and, you know, also provides

38:30

them with a living. Um , and

38:32

so it's basically just how

38:34

business be my opinion. Like

38:36

every business should be an ethical business. You should have

38:39

a social, environmental license to operate

38:42

no matter what you do, essentially

38:45

that's what social enterprise is all about.

38:49

And work that you're doing

38:51

with the , um, the Queensland Social

38:54

Entrepreneur Entrepreneurship , um,

38:57

Queensland Social Enterprise council. Yeah.

39:00

I've got to get my language right around

39:02

this. So

39:05

your, what do you currently doing

39:08

with that at the moment? Is it more gathering

39:10

the information or are you doing education

39:12

through that?

39:13

And so one of the

39:15

main, main things purposes

39:17

of QSEC is , um, to

39:20

, uh, it's always been run

39:22

by members. So it basically

39:24

started because I'm a small group of social

39:27

entrepreneurs in Brisbane decided that , um,

39:29

that I didn't have a voice

39:31

, um, that there were a lot of people

39:34

in the social impact and innovation space,

39:36

particularly with intermediaries,

39:40

financing, social impact, and,

39:43

u m, governments and the like, u

39:45

m, who was speaking on behalf of us, but

39:48

weren't really telling the true story. So

39:50

a bunch of entrepreneurs got together and said, let's form

39:52

our own sort of peak b odies, so to speak a

39:55

nd sort of like an industry association really.

39:57

And so basically what we do is we get together

39:59

whenever we can online these

40:02

days. U m, and we advocate,

40:05

u m, both to investors,

40:08

u m, and, u h, governments

40:11

to, u m, create socially

40:14

friendly policies in terms of, u

40:16

m, business and, u

40:19

m, legislation. So recently

40:21

in Queensland, they've implemented

40:23

a social, u m, u

40:26

h, procurement policy, they call it, u

40:28

m, so they're trying to educate buyers

40:30

right across government b ecause governments

40:33

spend a lot of money with businesses,

40:36

u m, in procuring services and goods. And so

40:38

the idea is if they have a social

40:41

procurement policy that, u

40:43

m, when buyers go out seeking, services

40:46

or g oods that they actually can tick

40:48

the box, that, that, that supplier

40:50

is a social enterprise, or has

40:53

some kind of impact social, environmental

40:55

impact by purchasing with them. And

40:57

that can be a really powerful way

41:00

to drive social change is

41:02

by getting large institutions

41:05

to spend their money more wisely w

41:07

ith t he people who can provide services, unfortunately

41:10

at the moment, because the

41:12

whole, because the government b

41:14

uy is so huge, a

41:16

lot of the buyers have been used to just going

41:18

with one big multinational who

41:20

can do all the things for them. But

41:23

what they're having to do is sort

41:25

of redesign their

41:28

contracts so that they can apportion

41:30

some, some of the money towards

41:32

the social enterprises that can fulfill

41:35

those contracts. So that's one aspect

41:37

of what we do. We also just are there

41:39

for each other. So we've had a lot of webinars

41:41

over the last, you know, month in particular,

41:44

just trying to support each other through all

41:46

the different programs that are out there in terms

41:48

of help for businesses during the pandemic,

41:51

but also, u m, recently

41:53

we've, u m, we've set up a

41:55

National Alliance of, u

41:57

m, member run, peak bodies like QSEC,

42:00

and it's been amazing. U m, w e've, we're basically

42:02

working on a position paper at

42:04

the moment to present to the federal government. U

42:07

m, so that we've got a, u

42:09

m, a voice in the post recovery postcode

42:12

recovery, u m, because what we need

42:14

to be really careful of in the

42:16

recovery phase after t he pandemic is

42:18

that b usinesses as usual, doesn't

42:21

take over again, and we're already

42:23

seeing some rhetoric coming out of Canberra saying

42:26

that, you know, u m, particularly Angus T

42:28

aylor saying that it's going to be a guest-led recovery.

42:31

U m, and that's the last thing we need right now

42:33

is, u m, y ou k now, more damage to the climate

42:36

in a climate-induced pandemic.

42:40

These voices need to come out so

42:42

strongly and we need to be ready. So

42:44

it's fantastic to hear that, that

42:47

you are talking in that

42:49

way and , and, you know, ready

42:51

to speak up because it's absolutely what

42:53

we need to be doing. And I'm thinking about

42:55

, um, you know, how, how,

42:58

how communities transition, that's kind of the other

43:00

part of your work too , that with

43:02

the next economy that you're

43:04

working with communities , um, transitioning

43:07

well, you know , it started

43:10

some time ago working, transitioning from,

43:12

from the fossil fuel economy, but,

43:15

you know, the current situation

43:18

on top of all of that gives it even

43:20

more reason transition

43:23

to, to a different way. So one of the

43:25

kinds of , uh, what are the ways

43:27

that you're working with communities to help them to

43:29

transition, and what kinds

43:32

of things are you working with them,

43:34

talking about what kind of transition

43:37

is coming out of those conversations?

43:39

It's been really interesting. I've only recently

43:42

joined Amanda Cahill, the next economy.

43:44

Um , and she's obviously well known for her

43:47

amazing work , um , in regional communities.

43:50

Um, and talking about economic transition. I

43:52

mean, the initial conversation is around energy.

43:54

So , um , most of our work has

43:56

been in coal , um , communities

43:59

around Queensland and , um

44:01

, talking to those communities about what kind

44:03

of future they want to see , um, and

44:05

what sort of, you know , um, sectors

44:08

need to be supported , um, you know,

44:10

in addition to renewable

44:12

energy and other projects. Um , so there's

44:14

so many , um, you

44:17

know, opportunities that are just lying under

44:19

the surface for a lot of communities, but

44:21

because of being dominated by one

44:23

particular industry itself

44:26

and at the expense of everything else.

44:28

Um, and so you'll often see coal communities

44:31

, um, you know, vehemently

44:33

hold on , um , to

44:35

the call because they know that all the industries that

44:37

have popped up to support that major

44:39

industry will also fall over.

44:42

Um , if you take that away. So how

44:44

can we build more resilience into

44:47

our local regional economies , um,

44:50

by supporting as many diverse

44:52

, um , sectors as possible. Um,

44:54

and there's so many , um, innovative

44:57

, um , ideas that have come out of our conversations.

44:59

We've got regenerative farmers really

45:02

starting to step up , um , talking

45:04

about new food systems. Um,

45:06

we've got a lot of people talking about,

45:08

you know, incredible opportunities around

45:11

waste and recycling and upcycling

45:14

. And , um , there's also incredible

45:16

talk and action around

45:18

, um, small manufacturing. So

45:21

, um, if the global system

45:24

suddenly comes to a halt and China locks

45:26

down and we can no longer import stuff

45:28

, um, what can we do

45:30

to produce our own stuff locally? What

45:33

small industries can we, can we

45:35

get going to start

45:37

bringing in more skills and

45:40

more money into the local regional

45:42

economy? So , um , it's only

45:44

just a , uh , uh , a beginning

45:46

, um, but we've seen some incredibly

45:49

positive , um , conversations come out

45:51

of those three regions. Recently, the

45:53

beauty of it is that

45:56

the community are coming up with these ideas themselves.

45:58

So being asked the question, you know, someone

46:00

stopped and decided to take

46:03

the time to ask the questions. Um

46:05

, and there's so much wisdom in there, you know,

46:08

and , um , we don't need a big top

46:10

down approach. We just need the people

46:13

in government in big government to

46:15

say, okay, guys, where do you need

46:17

the support and let's work together

46:19

to do that.

46:21

And I was just going to say to the , you know, I

46:23

think because of, because of

46:25

what's happening now, because we're seeing the

46:27

cracks in the system and

46:30

have vulnerabilities that these

46:33

conversations somehow seemed to

46:35

be acceptable. You

46:39

know, these conversations are not new, are they, I

46:41

mean, let's face it. These are things are we

46:43

talking about for a long time?

46:46

And , you know, a lot of us have just been trying

46:48

to keep it going. And all of a sudden there's

46:51

a, there's a new awareness

46:54

globally about the

46:57

importance of these types of conversations happening

46:59

in communities. So, so that's something that's happening

47:01

in regional communities with the next economy.

47:05

What are some of the things, just from your experience

47:07

of doing all the things that you do, that people

47:09

who were sitting maybe down the street

47:11

from you and, you know , in an urban environment,

47:14

what are some other ways you think they can

47:17

really support this

47:20

movement of regeneration and resilience

47:22

and helping to support

47:25

the recovery after COVID

47:27

to not just go back to business as usual,

47:29

but to be something else and to

47:31

support that?

47:33

Yeah , it's a good question. Often wondering to

47:35

myself. Um, but I think

47:37

they already know, and they already have the answers

47:39

themselves because they've been forced into isolation.

47:43

Um, you know, we've all realized that

47:46

, um, you know, there's,

47:48

there was a bit of t the start, but you know,

47:50

this all, we're all in this together,

47:52

we're all in the same boat. And I

47:55

read something recently where they said, well,

47:57

we're not all in the same boat. We're all in the same

47:59

ocean. We're all in the same

48:01

pandemic ocean, but some

48:03

of us are in little boats just trying

48:05

to stay afloat, you know, with a leak,

48:08

with a hole in the boat and with buckets,

48:10

you know, trying to, you know, get

48:12

the water out and just survive and get to land.

48:15

Um, other others are in big cruise

48:17

ships and they're just, they're fine. And

48:19

they're enjoying the downturns. Um,

48:22

so if anything,

48:25

the pandemic has really acutely

48:28

highlighted the inequities in

48:30

our system. So I think

48:32

in terms of , um, knowing

48:35

that it's not, everyone's equal in

48:38

this, some people are loving the home time,

48:40

loving, spending time with their kids and whatever,

48:42

and cooking from scratch and enjoying

48:45

all those things. Other people are just

48:47

trying to figure out where they're gonna get their next meal from.

48:50

Um, particularly I feel for people in the inner

48:52

city who are in these one bedroom apartment

48:55

blocks, you know, how are they coping?

48:59

It must be so isolating for them. Um,

49:02

so I guess , um, one of the things

49:05

, um , well, a few things that I would sort

49:07

of do, I guess, would be , um, well that

49:09

I've noticed people doing actually , um,

49:12

is , uh, particularly now suburb.

49:14

We've had people out on the driveways

49:16

every Sunday afternoon having dinner. Um,

49:19

so that's been k ind o f c ute. There's been a few,

49:21

u m, you know, n ew stories on the news about

49:23

that. U m, I think

49:25

there's just this concept of mutual aid

49:28

is that, u m, you know, if we can

49:30

find ways to support,

49:33

u m, the elderly, like I think the, the

49:36

elderly are very vulnerable in t hese particular, not

49:38

just physically healthy health wise, but

49:40

also emotionally vulnerable. And

49:43

I think, u m, you know, the idea

49:45

of the care army that came out from the state

49:47

government was a good idea. I'm not sure how it's worked

49:50

i n on the ground, but, u m, but c

49:52

ommunities already doing that themselves in many ways t

49:54

oo, is just to look out for each day for each other,

49:56

even before you're doing this, looking out for either side

49:59

of y our neighbor, u m, sharing

50:02

tips like you do at five

50:04

o'clock every afternoon on Facebook

50:06

or YouTube, like how

50:08

to grow stuff, how to cook with things, u

50:10

m, how to use the whole pumpkin, u

50:13

m, including the vines and the leaves and everything.

50:15

U m, you know, finding, finding ways to

50:17

be more resilient in your day to day existence

50:20

i s, is really empowering. It's not good,

50:24

and it's not just fun. It's actually

50:27

gives you agency. It gives you p ower. U

50:30

m, and one of the things that I've found in my years

50:32

at Food Connect is, u m, we've

50:34

been able to develop skills, homesteading

50:36

skills we call them. But what it actually

50:39

does is it reduces your reliance

50:41

on the nine to five, Monday to Friday

50:43

income to support yourself because

50:45

you're able to subsidize your income

50:48

by being self sufficient in t he lot

50:50

of ways.

50:50

It realeases time and

50:53

space in your life to do things..

50:56

To pursue things that really matter

50:58

to you like the

51:01

caring, the caring economy comes

51:03

into, into play . Doesn't it. We

51:05

know that that's never, that's never been attributed

51:08

a dollar value, but I always

51:10

say to Rob, you know, what would happen if

51:12

, if , um, if all the women,

51:15

mostly women who are the carers in households

51:17

around the world, what would happen if we all just

51:19

went on strike one day? The economy would stop.

51:28

What if we all started to work

51:30

from home a lot more? And what if work

51:33

week was three days a week?

51:35

And what, what,

51:38

what if there was the, you know, the

51:40

universal, basic income, you know,

51:42

there's all these different questions that are kind of coming

51:44

up that are differently.

51:48

And like you're saying in different type of sense

51:51

of community, like the, the

51:53

ripple effect of that to the , once you start

51:55

to feel the greatest sense of connectedness

51:57

to your community and therefore to

51:59

your place, then you start

52:02

to behave differently. Don't you in your

52:05

place. And the caring then extends

52:07

beyond into, into your natural

52:09

environment, to w ater system to your b

52:12

ioregion and to the, to the farmers that are in y our b

52:14

io r egion or to t he indigenous communities

52:16

that are, y ou k now, part of, you

52:18

k now, y eah, t hat'd been

52:20

there forever. Our relationships

52:25

change. And once one set of relationships

52:27

has a kind of a , a

52:30

reorientation, everything starts to

52:33

ripple out from there. And so we

52:35

are in, we are in a process right now

52:37

of quite, u m, quite

52:40

profound systems change. And

52:43

while there's massive suffering,

52:46

there's also the, i

52:48

f everything's up in the air, it feels,

52:51

and we have a chance to kind of catch things

52:53

differently as they start to

52:55

fall a nd settle back into place and, and

52:58

have, and have, y ou k now, t he w ord y ou w ere s aying before

53:00

the agency, we have the agency to

53:04

be influencers in that from

53:07

the community, from our neighborhoods and to

53:09

speak up and say, actually, you know what,

53:11

we were on this t rain of life before

53:13

following what we thought was the right thing

53:16

to do, you know, but now

53:18

we've, we've kind of all just been bumped off

53:20

that. And we've seen that there is actually

53:23

a different way of doing things a different way to, we have a

53:25

different way to have an economic system,

53:27

different way to feed ourselves different way to relate

53:29

different way to educate o ur children. We've

53:32

actually had an experience that we may not l

53:34

ack all of that with i t, m aybe bits that we like to choose,

53:36

but as we kind of pack things back together,

53:38

again, as w e m ove out

53:40

of these classes, it's

53:43

going to be different. And I really

53:45

encourage people to speak up

53:48

o n what it is that they value

53:50

and find important and want

53:52

to embrace as

53:54

we move forward from now.

53:57

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

53:59

We've , um, we've as

54:01

a society, I think we kind of lost sight

54:04

of what really matters. What COVID

54:06

has done is really remind us that, you know,

54:08

at the end of the day, it's looking after

54:11

it and whether you

54:13

, you have a family or whether you're living

54:15

on your own and you exist in an apartment

54:17

complex, that is a community and, and

54:21

how you relate to your neighbors is, is,

54:24

is just as valuable as your

54:26

expertise that you contribute after

54:28

you've, you know, when you're in there in

54:31

the real economy

54:33

as they call it. Um, and

54:35

I often think that women kind of get this

54:37

stuff a little bit better at times,

54:40

because especially women

54:42

, um , you know, who've experienced

54:44

childbirth or , um, you know,

54:47

being in a caring role where

54:49

they've had to sort of interrupt their, their

54:51

own careers , um, to step

54:53

into a caring role , um , for

54:55

a close family member or , or

54:58

family or child, because

55:00

, um, because you have

55:03

that, we've often experienced that

55:05

short circuit to our normal life.

55:08

And often what happens

55:10

in that process is that you

55:12

realize that you actually don't

55:15

want to go back to that normal

55:17

life. Again, you actually want to explore

55:20

, um, a little bit of both. What

55:22

does a bit of both look like in a healthy,

55:24

balanced way , um, get off

55:26

that hamster wheel and start bringing

55:28

more meaning into your own life, but also pursuing

55:31

your, you know, your career goals at the

55:33

same time. It's not about having it all.

55:35

It's about having a little bit, you know,

55:38

of , of what you want.

55:39

and just

55:42

thinking too then about, you know, it's

55:45

a redefinition of our

55:47

relationship with ourselves and what we do

55:50

in our own lives and in our families,

55:52

but it's also, you know , bringing

55:54

it back to, to say Food Connect,

55:57

you know, our community is also

56:00

the members of our food system. And

56:02

so, you know , by having a close

56:05

relationship with something like food connect,

56:08

then you don't feel isolated in your,

56:10

in your apartment because you

56:12

are interconnected.

56:14

That's right. You've got to get out of your apartment

56:17

and go and grab your box from your local city council.

56:20

And you might just have.. Your

56:24

world has expanded. It's

56:26

that sense of belonging. And , um

56:29

, you know, I don't know if you get that with Coles

56:31

and Woolies , um , the have loyalty

56:36

programs.

56:37

[laughter] The sense of brand loyalty, but it's different

56:42

when it comes to, to actually

56:44

feeling cared for and nurtured

56:47

and connected, and

56:50

you know , relationships. I

56:53

think we are finding that

56:55

the richness of our relationships

56:57

is, is flourishing right

57:00

now in many, in many ways. S

57:02

o, y eah. Well,

57:05

thank you so much for taking the time to

57:07

chat with me this morning.

57:08

You're welcome Morag.

57:09

We kind of went

57:11

all the way

57:15

from global to local, but that's kind of point

57:18

when we're exploring systems

57:20

change. You know, the micro is

57:22

the , of macro. So

57:26

thank you so much. And I'm talking

57:29

with you again soon.

57:31

Thanks Morag. Lovely to spend

57:33

time with you.

57:39

So thanks for tuning in to the sense-

57:41

making in a changing world podcast today, it's

57:43

been a real pleasure to have your company.

57:46

I invite you to subscribe and receive

57:48

notification of each new weekly episode

57:51

with more wonderful stories, ideas,

57:53

inspiration, and common sense

57:56

for living and working regenerative and

57:58

core positive permaculture thinking of design

58:01

interaction in this changing world.

58:04

I'm including a transcript below and

58:06

a link also to my four-part permaculture

58:08

series, really looking at what is

58:10

permaculture and how to make it your livelihood

58:13

too . So join me again

58:15

in the next episode where we talk with

58:17

another fascinating guest, I

58:19

look forward to seeing you there.