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Welcome to the Sense-making in a Changing World Podcast, where we explore the kind of thinking we need to navigate a positive way forward. I’m your host Morag Gamble.. Permaculture Educator, and Global Ambassador, Filmmaker, Eco villager, Food Forester, Mother, Practivist and all around lover of thinking, communicating and acting regeneratively. For a long time it's been clear to me that to shift trajectory to a thriving one planet way of life we first need to shift our thinking, the way we perceive ourselves in relation to nature, self, and community is the core. So this is true now more than ever. And even the way change is changing, is changing. Unprecedented changes are happening all around us at a rapid pace. So how do we make sense of this? To know which way to turn, to know what action to focus on? So our efforts are worthwile and nourishing and are working towards resilience, regeneration, and reconnection. What better way to make sense than to join together with others in open generative conversation. In

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this podcast, I'll share conversations with my friends and colleagues, people who inspire and challenge me in their ways of thinking, connecting and acting. These wonderful people thinkers, doers, activists, scholars, writers, leaders, farmers, educators, people whose work informs permaculture and spark the imagination of what a post-COVID, climate-resilient, socially just future could look like. Their ideas and projects help us to make sense in this changing world to compost and digest the ideas and to nurture the fertile ground for new ideas, connections and actions. Together we'll open up conversations in the world of permaculture design, regenerative thinking community action, earth, repair, eco-literacy, and much more. I can't wait to share these conversations with you. Over

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the last three decades of personally making sense of the multiple crises we face I always returned to the practical and positive world of permaculture with its ethics of earth care, people care and fair share. I've seen firsthand how adaptable and responsive it can be in all contexts from urban to rural, from refugee camps to suburbs. It helps people make sense of what's happening around them and to learn accessible design tools, to shape their habitat positively and to contribute to cultural and ecological regeneration. This is why I've created the Permaculture Educators Program to help thousands of people to become permaculture teachers everywhere through an interactive online dual certificate of permaculture design and teaching. We sponsor global Permayouth programs, women's self help groups in the global South and teens in refugee camps. So anyway, this podcast is sponsored by the Permaculture Education Institute and our Permaculture Educators Program. If you'd like to find more about permaculture, I've created a four-part permaculture video series to explain what permaculture is and also how you can make it your livelihood as well as your way of life. We'd love to invite you to join our wonderfully inspiring, friendly and supportive global learning community. So I welcome you to share each of these conversations, and I'd also like to suggest you create a local conversation circle to explore the ideas shared in each show and discuss together how this makes sense in your local community and environment. I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I meet and speak with you today.. The Gubbi Gubbi people and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging. So

3:28

thanks so much for joining me this morning,

3:30

Amanda. It's absolutely wonderful. And

3:32

I'd like to introduce Amanda to all of you who are watching

3:34

this because Amanda has been a longtime friend

3:37

of mine, but most extraordinary woman who

3:39

has inspired me so much with the work

3:41

that she does. So I just tell you a little bit

3:43

about her first. So Amanda is

3:45

the executive director of

3:47

the Next Economy, and she'll be telling

3:50

us all about that. Um, she,

3:52

she was also the founder of , um,

3:55

The Center for Social Change. She's

3:57

a Churchill fellow. Um,

3:59

she's an Associate of the Sydney

4:01

Policy Lab and or UQ , she

4:04

, um, advised , uh,

4:07

Damon Gameau on the 2040

4:09

movie and was featured in that too. Um,

4:12

her work has taken her to many places

4:15

around the world , uh , and worked with , uh,

4:17

communities in so many

4:20

different contexts and that's really part of the

4:22

core of your work. Isn't it? Actually looking at

4:24

what is change , how change happens,

4:27

how we can transition to a

4:29

society into a way of living that

4:31

is actually going to be , uh , supporting

4:34

wellbeing of people on the planet is essentially

4:36

what I understand your work to do. But so

4:38

maybe we could start there really about

4:40

what is the Next Economy and what

4:43

is the kind of work that you do that the

4:45

Next Economy?

4:46

Yeah, we do lots of different things. So it's

4:49

sometimes a bit hard to, even for

4:51

me to get my head around, but basically what

4:53

we're trying to do is work with

4:55

governments and business and communities

4:58

, um, around that question

5:00

of how do we transition to an economy that works

5:02

for both people and planet. So

5:05

I guess we're a bit different to a lot of organizations

5:08

around at the moment because there's kind of this acceptance

5:11

of particularly now since the Coronavirus

5:14

hit and the economy does need to change. It's not

5:16

working for a lot of people. Um,

5:19

and a lot of organizations focus on trying to build

5:21

that power build a movement around

5:24

the need to change, to convince leaders that

5:26

we need to change. We kind of come in at

5:28

a different angle around , um,

5:30

working with people when they,

5:33

they kind of realize that they changed , but they don't

5:35

know where to go. So we're kind

5:37

of not focused on trying to convince people we need to change.

5:39

We're focused on helping

5:41

people navigate that , that change no matter

5:43

where they're at. So where's the opening

5:45

where people are ready and then how do we help

5:48

them access the knowledge, resources

5:50

, um , skills or other

5:52

people that they need to actually like

5:55

a step in the right direction.

5:57

So, so you've worked a lot

5:59

in this world of

6:02

transition. So what,

6:04

what do we mean by transition? What is the,

6:06

what, what are we transitioning

6:09

from and where is it that we're actually

6:11

looking to transition to ? I

6:13

know that's a very broad, big question,

6:15

but I think it's a key

6:18

thing at the moment, isn't it that, you know , change is

6:20

happening and transition is happening

6:22

in and around us. And how do we shape that,

6:25

that type of transition that we, that

6:27

we really would like to see in the world. So in

6:29

your mind, the kind of work that you're doing, what, what

6:31

is transition and how can you,

6:35

how can you support people to transition

6:40

in the ways that they would like to see that happen?

6:41

I guess,

6:44

yeah, I use transition as a shorthand

6:46

, because actually we're always in transition, there's

6:48

never a stage where we're

6:50

standing still, we're always moving. Things

6:53

are always changing and it's not linear either. I think

6:55

often we think we're transitioning from,

6:57

you know , um , often we'll talk about transitioning

7:00

from the need from , uh , an economy that's

7:02

based on extraction of value , um,

7:05

from people, the planet or the land or the

7:07

water resources , um , for profit

7:10

to something that is about investing or

7:12

regenerating , um, land, water,

7:14

and people in communities, but

7:17

change doesn't actually happen that way. There's kind of openings

7:19

where things there's a crack that appears

7:22

and whether or not that gets

7:24

papered over and we try and keep going with the status quo

7:27

or whether that crack appears. And something goes

7:29

through that crack is kind

7:31

of that question. So I don't think, u m, I

7:34

guess I u se the word transition, but

7:36

really it's about how do we

7:38

find our way through change? So

7:41

probably the analogy

7:43

that we're using i n the next economy is the

7:45

difference between say navigating

7:48

using a map versus wayfinding,

7:50

which is sort of the ancient art,

7:52

or, u m, e ither navigating by the stars

7:55

o r like s eafarers used to use or indigenous

7:58

p eople still use today where you kind of look

8:00

for signs, u m, in nature

8:02

or science actually w

8:04

ill say go this way. Not

8:06

knowing necessarily where the end destination

8:09

is, but having an idea of where you want to end up.

8:11

So being guided by those principles around,

8:14

u m, that we need to, we need to move to a

8:16

system that is regenerating the planet

8:19

a nd people, u m, that

8:21

is more just, that means that an

8:23

equitable that people have access to what

8:25

they need, not just to survive, but

8:27

to thrive in the world. So what does that look

8:29

like? We need to act on climate change.

8:31

So how c an we reduce? So these are

8:33

the kinds of principles and things t hat we

8:35

want to see in the economy that we're trying

8:37

to build, accepting that it's never

8:40

going to be this direct when you pass to get this.

8:42

So it's meeting people

8:44

where they're at and then going, okay, if we want to head to

8:46

this direction, what's the next

8:48

step based on where you're at. Cause it's g

8:50

onna look very different for a m

8:52

inister or government department to a local community group.

8:55

Um, they're very different. The

8:58

work looks different, but actually the support

9:01

around them and h elping them take that step is very similar.

9:04

Just as you're speaking

9:07

and the type of change

9:09

or the type.. The way in which you're

9:11

working with communities is completely different

9:13

and it's old and it's

9:16

new at the same time. So what is, what , where

9:18

did the inspiration for you come

9:20

from? I mean, obviously you've worked in this field for

9:22

decades and where do the old different

9:24

sorts of communities from all different kinds of backgrounds?

9:28

Where do you feel like sort

9:30

of, kind of the roots of this, this way

9:33

that you're working with is coming from?

9:34

Yeah, probably

9:36

, um , so many places,

9:39

but I think , um, from

9:42

a really personal level, I actually

9:44

went to a one teacher school. So I grew up in the bush

9:47

and at the one teacher a school you don't have

9:49

access to a teacher who's like stepping you through things

9:51

all the time. So often we were given kind

9:54

of a lesson plan or a sort

9:56

of a workbook to work through. And

9:58

if you got to finish that your work

10:00

quickly, you could actually help other people. I

10:02

had three or four other people in my grade.

10:04

You could help them with that activity or

10:07

you can go and help the other grades, the younger grades with

10:09

their reading and writing. And I learned at a very young age

10:11

that you couldn't just tell someone what to do.

10:14

You had to figure out where they were at

10:16

and how they were thinking about that,

10:18

and then start with where they're

10:21

at and then introduce something new , help them to play

10:23

with that and experiment take the next step. So

10:25

I think I've worked out that that's kind of where

10:28

it probably first came from, but

10:30

then that was strengthened through

10:32

work I was doing , um, I

10:35

went to Brazil when I was 17 and started

10:37

working with a women's group there. And there were the women

10:39

who were in the poorest section of the town, helping

10:41

themselves. They went , Oh , we're just

10:43

pulling together the resources that they had to

10:45

actually meet needs of their neighbors. They weren't

10:47

waiting for someone to come and save them that were just

10:50

doing that. And I turned up and

10:52

, um , just wanted to do something

10:54

, um, because

10:57

I've walked down the street one day and just sort

10:59

of just

11:02

couldn't handle it anymore sort

11:04

of very idealistic 17 year old, burst into

11:06

tears and walked into the nearest

11:08

church and said, you guys are going to be doing something about

11:10

this work . What can I do? And

11:13

the priest pointed me to church up the

11:15

road that had women's group. And I

11:17

turned up and they were like, well, what can you do?

11:21

And one of the things that they did was a sewing group.

11:24

I went, well, I know how to sew . And they're like, great, here's a

11:26

sewing machine. We need 130

11:28

nappies. I was like, okay, it's

11:32

that kind of, I guess it's a more feminine

11:34

approach to just work with what you've got

11:36

and more of an emergent kind of way

11:38

of problem-solving. Um,

11:40

and that was reiterated again, when I worked with Aboriginal

11:43

people and Aboriginal health in Australia,

11:46

about 2001 , again,

11:48

it was people saying you're an outsider. You're never going to

11:50

understand that culture. Don't think that you can never tell

11:52

us what to do. And I was like very

11:54

young at the time. So they're like, you know, it's,

11:57

you do not speak. You

11:59

sit listen and we'll tell you what we need.

12:02

So it's those processes of working with

12:04

amazing leaders and a lot of different

12:06

countries actually that are saying you

12:08

have something that we need, but we're

12:10

in charge of this process. So

12:13

actually meeting that and supporting that.

12:16

Yeah. And similarly,

12:20

so the experiences I've had to kind of process

12:23

of listening first, I think is

12:25

such an important part. And,

12:27

but I know too , that emerging

12:29

from that grounding and that

12:31

understanding, you have

12:34

been exploring a lot of the ideas around,

12:37

around change and around leadership.

12:40

And so what

12:42

is the kind of leadership that we need now?

12:45

So there's, you know, there's one of actually being

12:47

, uh, you

12:50

know, being present and, and listening

12:52

and that's sort of part of engaging,

12:55

but what

12:57

type of leadership do we need in , in

12:59

our world today considering

13:02

what's going on, considering

13:05

that the kind of leadership that we're seeing in many parts

13:07

of the world is actually not taking us in the direction

13:10

that we need to go in. And yet we're seeing

13:12

other types of leadership that is really

13:14

starting to work well. What is,

13:17

what is a leader within

13:19

this frame? What is, what

13:22

is a good and

13:25

is leader the right word as well? You

13:27

know, I'm just wondering.

13:30

Right. It's definitely a need for leadership. I

13:32

think , uh , I've , it's been a long journey

13:34

for me. I think we've, we've talked about this

13:36

before. Um, I started

13:38

out as a facilitator. So my

13:40

role wasn't to my

13:43

role was to hold a space for people to figure

13:45

out what they wanted it wasn't to sort of

13:47

set the agenda and then

13:49

get people to act in a certain way to get

13:51

to a certain outcome. Although, you know,

13:53

there's a bit of a gray area with facilitation too

13:56

. Um, cause you are there for a purpose.

13:59

Um, but I've seen over time

14:01

that even

14:04

when people are willing and you see this little time

14:06

with community groups on the ground, people

14:08

can say that there's a problem. They've got

14:11

some , they want to start taking action. Um

14:13

, but they not, everyone has

14:17

the big picture vision that

14:20

it's needed that or the ability to bring lots

14:22

of people along and coordinate that

14:24

action , um, to keep

14:26

an eye on the end goal. Um,

14:28

the confidence just to

14:31

an , a presence that actually inspires people

14:33

to trust. I think so all of these things,

14:35

I think the need for

14:37

leadership is still really important, I

14:39

think we can have really good processes

14:42

that enable a lot more participation

14:44

a nd equal and democracy a nd our decision making.

14:47

But I still think there's a role for someone who pulls

14:49

that together and can

14:51

own that. And I think what now more

14:53

than ever in a time where we're

14:55

seeing around the world, very that strong m

14:57

an leadership, that kind of autocratic t

15:00

op-down follow me leadership, u

15:02

m, is a sign that people are looking for leadership

15:05

and that they are scared and that they need

15:08

someone who can kind of hold things together

15:11

to enable them to have enough [

15:13

inaudible] to be able to take a risk, to trust

15:16

enough, to take a step, to take a risk. So

15:18

that sort of leadership is more important than ever,

15:20

but we

15:22

d on't have to throw the baby out with the bath water, like

15:25

I don't think, and it's really interesting seeing how

15:27

COVID is playing out where you've got

15:30

those leaders who a re very top down and very strong.

15:33

U m, and

15:35

we're not seeing really great results in terms

15:37

of how things are playing out because people

15:39

are become paralyzed, waiting

15:42

for direction. U

15:44

m, and sometimes those calls have been great

15:47

because there's no way that any one leader

15:49

or even government can be across all of those issues.

15:52

So there's a different kind of leadership. Like

15:54

you look at, u m, people like Jacinda

15:58

d one in New Zealand where

16:01

right from the beginning, she s pelt out

16:03

the problem. And then she

16:05

explained to people that there were stages

16:07

around how they were going to manage it. And

16:09

she gave people t he information u p f ront saying

16:12

there are, I t hink, four stages to this response.

16:14

We're starting here. Once we see these

16:17

kinds of things, we'll w rap it up and we need your

16:19

cooperation with this. It's only g oing t o work with

16:21

you. So there was an invitation in, there

16:24

was trust of the people to give them

16:26

information so that they can make decisions

16:29

for themselves. And it was enrolling

16:31

their confidence. It was saying, are you going to work with

16:33

us to make this happen? Because you are part

16:35

of a whole, and i t's, it's a

16:37

very different kind of leadership model. Even

16:39

within the climate movement. I noticed t here's like a lot

16:41

of campaigning organizations are f

16:44

eel the pressure to come up with the answer,

16:46

the campaign we're going to push for this

16:48

one thing. We're going to build power around

16:50

it and make this happen. U

16:52

m, and that's important a

16:54

nd i t's, it can happen very, especially when things

16:56

need to have a very quickly, but at

16:58

the same time, I think we m issed an opportunity

17:01

where there might be opportunities for real transformative

17:03

change by actually

17:06

going okay, h ere a re some principles that

17:08

we can work behind. Here's the vision that we

17:10

all agree that we're working together, e

17:12

ngage people around that conversation a bout what they want,

17:15

which enables people to then go out and start

17:17

taking action in concert.

17:19

So it's more like an orchestra, like people are

17:21

doing different things, people playing with different instruments.

17:24

But if you look at the whole, they're creating beautiful

17:26

music because it's, it's aligned with,

17:29

u m, a certain direction. And in that case, the

17:31

leadership is more like a conductor of an orchestra.

17:33

It's a very important role. U

17:36

m, but i t's, they're not there to

17:38

tell each instrument each musician

17:40

how to play the instrument.

17:42

And I think you touched on a

17:44

really important point, right? At the beginning of , of

17:46

how you describing that too , was about

17:49

taking the fear out of it. And , and

17:52

that, you know, when you get sort of

17:54

a sense of like, Oh, I've got to wait until I'm,

17:56

you know, I know what's happening in the leadership

17:58

will tell me what's going on and it's kind

18:00

of secret and we'll find out when we need

18:02

to, whereas actually having this transparency

18:05

and having the capacity to be

18:07

part of that decision making process

18:10

and to , to actually feel uplifted

18:12

and supported and enabled and empowered

18:16

through the leadership that exists, I

18:18

think is a really amazing thing. And like

18:20

you're saying, it's when you see that happen in

18:22

community groups too. I mean, I know from , uh

18:24

, even from community garden groups that I've worked with,

18:27

when there is an engaging inclusive

18:29

process that people understand and that they're taken

18:32

along, it doesn't really, there's sort of

18:34

no real, even no real central

18:36

boss at that point, you know? And like it's really important

18:38

that there's that understanding from

18:40

a , from a group perspective about, about

18:43

how change happens in about how you

18:45

can engage in that and , and , and step

18:47

in and out if you want to not always have to be

18:50

part of it. I mean, I think there's a lot of stress

18:52

and pressure that's put on groups when they feel

18:54

like, Oh, I've got to be part of this committee. And then there's all these

18:57

rules that apply. And then, you know, it just

18:59

kind of sort of fall in on

19:01

themselves where a different type of

19:03

leadership I think is really needed in , in

19:05

all scales, from, from our governments

19:08

through to our community organizations,

19:11

whether they be formal or informal groups.

19:13

So you mentioned a few , um , principals

19:16

before. Do you want to just touch a little bit more,

19:18

what you feel those principles

19:21

of change our

19:23

leadership? Um , how are you describing those

19:25

that ..

19:25

With a

19:29

few different things in my head? So just going back to, I guess what

19:31

you were just saying then it's , um, I

19:34

guess a question around always questioning,

19:38

like who needs to be involved at

19:41

what time, for what purpose? I

19:43

think there's something, we are the go, we need

19:45

a complete flat structure, or we need a top down

19:47

kind of leadership structure, but actually

19:49

there are ways to engage people, the

19:52

right people at the right time to

19:54

the right level, because I think sometimes we go too far

19:57

with the community groups and everyone,

19:59

like you said, everyone has to be involved in every decision. Then

20:01

there's endless meetings and nothing

20:03

actually gets done. Um, and

20:05

there's a really good paper that was written, I think in

20:08

the mid 70s, by someone in the feminist

20:10

movement called the Tyranny of Structurelessness,

20:12

which is available online, which I recommend

20:15

everyone have a read off because, you

20:17

know, we're so committed to principles around democracy

20:19

and participation and equity

20:22

, um, that sometimes we

20:24

don't have the right processes set up to

20:27

enable people to do what they need to do at

20:30

the level that they want to get engaged in. Cause

20:32

particularly between that society wide change,

20:35

not everyone wants to be involved. Some people just want

20:37

to get on with it and that's fair enough. Like I

20:39

don't actually want to have

20:41

to manage all of my own

20:43

water systems and energy systems.

20:45

I want people who know what they're doing to take care

20:48

of that so I can get on and do what I do. So

20:50

I think that's a really good principle around

20:52

leadership and groups, I guess,

20:55

change. I'm thinking

20:58

about change. I think in terms

21:00

of working with people, knowing that the

21:02

nexus between leadership and change, I think about

21:04

change from a sort of stages

21:06

of change model, which I learned about

21:08

when I was doing health promotion work with

21:11

Aboriginal communities, which

21:13

is accepting that different people are on that , um

21:15

, different stages of that change cycle . Some

21:17

people , um , even

21:19

aware of the need for change.

21:22

And so the work that you do with them is about

21:24

, um, you know, raising that

21:26

awareness. Um , some people are aware

21:29

that there's a problem and things need to change. Um,

21:31

but they don't see how it's important

21:34

to them. So how do you actually get that

21:36

point where they're concerned or they can see how

21:38

it's relevant to them? That's the work that needs to be done.

21:40

And then when they get to a point going, Oh,

21:42

something needs to change. Um,

21:45

then it's what DNA to arm

21:47

them with intent . So they can actually take measures

21:51

to move in the right direction. So that's at capacity

21:53

building or resourcing stage. Then

21:55

people can go through that and then go, actually,

21:58

I'm , I'm ready to , um , not

22:01

just take action, but to lead other people, we'll bring

22:03

community together. That's a different kind of , um,

22:06

support that you need to provide people like

22:09

that. And so, and then people move around

22:11

that, that cycle of change and coming into different

22:13

parts or move backwards. So I

22:16

think that , um, that's what we're trying to do is meet

22:18

people where they're at on that cycle

22:20

and then give them the resources they need

22:22

or the knowledge they need or the core networks

22:25

that they need to actually , um,

22:27

keep moving along that cycle.

22:28

So what does that look

22:30

like when you..people work

22:33

with you? So you get invited to come and work with

22:35

, uh , with a community

22:38

and, and then what do you do?

22:40

How does, how does it actually work?

22:43

Um , well, I guess it's like, you've probably divided

22:45

up the way I can afford. So one,

22:47

the, the actual, what most people know

22:49

about what we do is we go and work in regional

22:52

areas. Um , so far we've

22:54

been going since beginning of 2018 with the

22:56

Next Economy. So most of that work has

22:58

been focused on , um,

23:01

how the energy transition and how reducing

23:03

and absorbing emissions across all sectors of

23:05

the economy can create jobs

23:08

and opportunities in regional areas. Um,

23:11

so sometimes that's a workshop , um,

23:13

that we've had have been funded by government to do,

23:16

or a local group, maybe an environment

23:18

group, or the local councils to do some

23:21

training or presentation , um,

23:24

around those aspects. So,

23:27

and sometimes that's supporting projects

23:29

on the ground. So Byron Bay, for example,

23:32

particularly there was going to zero emissions within 10

23:34

years. So we supported them on that

23:36

process, project management side of that.

23:39

Um , so this work on the ground, we do

23:41

a lot of , um, sort of more what

23:44

we're calling education. So actually

23:46

doing work to try and highlight

23:48

that we've got so many different economic

23:51

possibilities and options to build a

23:53

different kind of economy. So that's more that public

23:55

facing presentations, media webinars,

23:58

things like that. Um , increasingly

24:01

we're doing a lot of work with decision makers

24:03

within often state government whether in a movement or industry

24:08

like energy companies who

24:10

are trying to get their head around what

24:12

their options are. So we've done some policy

24:15

design work , um,

24:17

or just helping the strategy. I actual

24:19

direct advice around what

24:21

the next steps are, and we're developing a report

24:23

for the Queensland government right now around

24:26

economic stimulus ideas. Um,

24:28

and then finally, it's sort of a new

24:31

area that we've worked out that there's actually

24:33

lots of amazing people out there who are

24:35

working on that edge of economic transformation

24:38

, whether they're in the food movement or housing,

24:40

or they're often small

24:42

organizations, often isolated,

24:44

very under resourced and, but doing amazing

24:47

work. So we're trying to figure out

24:49

how do we actually provide a coordination

24:51

or support role to the leaders who

24:53

are already there trying to do

24:55

systems change, work, to amplify

24:58

their efforts . And we're looking at some programs

25:01

like for what that leadership program looks

25:03

like next year.

25:05

Amazing amount of workAnd I

25:13

it's quite, it's, it's

25:15

such , um, the

25:18

change that's happening in the world is changing. Things

25:21

are changing so fast and I'm wondering, you

25:23

know, like you, you had been focused before

25:25

on, on, you know, it was the energy

25:28

transition. I know you still are. Um,

25:30

and particularly, you know, looking at the

25:34

work and how it influences our

25:36

response to climate change

25:39

and all of that's embedded within there

25:41

and, and, you know , um , uh

25:43

, women's empowerment and all these, you know, health

25:46

and wellbeing, all of these different themes

25:48

that kind of embedded within what you are

25:50

calling this sort of this economic transition.

25:52

And, you know, maybe, maybe you

25:54

could just speak a little bit to , um

25:57

, was sort of two questions starting to emerge here. One

25:59

was about why is it that you've

26:01

picked? Uh , you know, this may seem

26:03

really obvious to you, but I'd love if you do just kind of

26:05

articulated, is that, why have you picked the

26:08

economy as the thing that you talk about

26:11

that represents all of the rest of this?

26:13

And then , um , how is your response

26:17

changed or has it not

26:20

with what's happening now

26:22

with the Coronavirus has that changed

26:25

the way that you're working in the way that you see

26:27

that your work emerging from now on. Two questions

26:31

bundled up there.

26:32

They're great questions. Um,

26:34

so the economy , um, well,

26:38

the way, I guess the way I think about

26:41

the economy, it's just how it's

26:43

just the systems and processes we use

26:45

to produce things,

26:47

exchange them, consume them , um

26:50

, organize work, and also

26:52

what we do with any surplus or profit that

26:55

comes out of that. So , um,

26:58

we're trying to let , so to me, it's how we live

27:00

. It's how we do all those things that actually support our living.

27:02

And I'm not just talking about the cash-based, capitalist

27:05

society. Um, if we took all

27:07

of the volunteers, unpaid volunteers,

27:10

formal volunteer programs out of our

27:12

economy, it would collapse like w uh

27:14

, hospitals at schools. Everything relies on that.

27:17

Um, households the

27:20

amount of unpaid labor and caring

27:22

work that's important. So it's actually

27:24

, um, to me having really

27:26

creative conversations about, well, how do we do

27:28

things? How do we get, what we need

27:30

to live is

27:32

, is the basis of everything. Um,

27:35

so we can do it so many different ways.

27:37

We have so many different options. We can be

27:39

so much more creative about that in terms

27:42

of how things have changed with the current moment.

27:44

Um, I guess, I mean,

27:48

doing this work for a long time, and even at

27:50

the center for social change, we're talking about economic change.

27:53

And even with the energy transition, we

27:55

couldn't get cut through, like people were like, Oh, that's

27:57

interesting, but you

28:00

know, people aren't ready to talk about it . When I first

28:02

started talking about the energy transition work in

28:04

2014, literally had government

28:06

leaders saying, Oh , people aren't ready

28:08

to talk about that yet. Maybe in five years yet , we know

28:11

we need to try to change, to transition,

28:13

but, you know, later, and

28:15

I think, and even the public, people think it's really

28:18

interesting, but they couldn't say the, how,

28:20

how are we going to take actions on it? Um,

28:23

so for example, there's been discussions about

28:25

things like the Universal Basic

28:27

Income or job guarantees

28:30

or cooperatives, but

28:32

it wasn't landing in Australia because a lot

28:34

of people were too comfortable and

28:37

there wasn't really that push to

28:40

actually make radical change or

28:43

it seemed a bit risky. Now,

28:45

I think everyone's kind of everything's up

28:48

for grabs. Um, and

28:50

a lot of the assumptions we had about the economy

28:52

have been shattered. So even

28:54

that the role that government is playing right now is completely

28:57

different to what they were saying six months ago. Like

28:59

it was like governments shouldn't be involved in the economy

29:01

and now dictating everything that's

29:04

g onna happen. So, u

29:06

m, I guess for us, it's meant I've I

29:09

had to be very about

29:11

th e e conomy it was and why we focus so

29:13

much on the energy transition was because

29:16

people were sort of saying, well, what

29:18

should we do about the energy transition? There

29:20

was sort of, we had to be pragmatic

29:22

and ma ke w hat people we re n eeding and what

29:24

they're asking for. And even in coal

29:27

mining communities we re a sking yo u t o come and talk

29:29

about th e s hift to renewable energy.

29:31

So I met that need

29:33

there, but I think now there's

29:35

an opening to actually have much bolder,

29:38

more radical conversations about how

29:40

the whole system needs to change, rather than

29:42

just whether we get electricity from th

29:44

is s ource to that source. We can actually

29:46

be more direct about saying, we need

29:48

to think about how we do that. Like, are

29:51

we just backing in big private companies

29:54

and doing business as usual? Should we take public

29:56

control over all of our utilities to

29:58

make sure everyone has access as a public right,

30:00

or service or human ri ghts? Or should

30:02

we be going to small scale cooperative

30:04

community owned systems that have a whole

30:07

economic democracy element to it? Or

30:10

is it a combination of all those? We can actually be much

30:12

more ambitious

30:14

now about saying, look, we've

30:16

got an opportunity here to, to

30:19

shape the economy in a c ompletely an

30:21

d s hift the direction in a different way.

30:24

I think, you know , that the opportunity that's presented

30:27

right now to, to,

30:30

to put things on the table that they've been on

30:32

the, been around the periphery for a long

30:34

time, you know, decades, these ideas

30:36

have been around and they've been experimented with,

30:39

you know, child around the world,

30:42

you know, experienced communities that are doing

30:44

amazing things, but it's always been

30:47

seen as something that's fringe. And I really

30:49

feel like now is a possibility

30:52

to , to bring those, like you said, into, into

30:54

part of that mix into to inform

30:57

something that might happen. And I'm really

30:59

curious because you talk to people

31:01

in all different levels of government all the time. Now,

31:04

do you feel like there's an openness to this?

31:06

I mean, you're saying that this is what you're wanting to put forward, but,

31:09

you know, have you bounced these ideas off

31:11

them yet and , and seeing what

31:13

they, how they respond?

31:16

Uh , there's sort of two levels to that. So

31:18

even before the coronavirus

31:19

hit um,

31:22

we were doing some regional work and

31:25

what's really surprising to me that

31:27

, um, people in local

31:29

councils and just

31:32

general business community people

31:34

, it just people in, you know, in places like

31:36

central Queensland or Southeast Queensland. So

31:38

Southwest Queensland, where they

31:40

were the ones bringing up things like , um,

31:43

UBI and , um,

31:46

things like cooperatives taking

31:49

and community owned, renewable energy, or

31:52

, um, completely different

31:54

radical approaches to waste and zero waste

31:56

. So these, these terms were like coming out

31:58

of people's mouths that we weren't raising,

32:00

they were raising. So I think

32:03

there was an appetite and it was all around resilience

32:06

and the feeling that people have been left,

32:09

especially in regional areas of doing a tough

32:11

one , a number of fronts, and they didn't have that resilience

32:14

on the basics that they needed. So

32:16

people were talking about food justice and local

32:18

food systems, for example,

32:20

and what's happened to agriculture and

32:23

, um , the power of the supermarkets

32:25

and taking away people's ability

32:28

to just buy and grow food locally.

32:31

Um, so these radical ideas where we're

32:33

bubbling there. So there's definitely

32:35

an openness there in

32:37

terms of , um, second federal government.

32:40

I think that it's been surprising

32:42

to me , um,

32:45

how open they are to hearing the ideas

32:48

from regional areas about how they can build economic

32:50

resilience. Um , so I , I

32:52

literally sent a whole bunch of emails to

32:54

advise ministerial advisors , uh,

32:57

the state and some federal level thinking

33:00

that this was about six weeks ago thinking

33:02

they would , um, if I got

33:04

a response, it would be come back to us in a couple of

33:06

months when things have settled down, I

33:08

literally got three emails within five minutes

33:10

back from ministerial advisors, like

33:12

top advisors and saying, I'm really sorry. I can't

33:14

talk to you today. Do you have time tomorrow? And

33:17

I was like, Whoa, but it was unexpected.

33:19

I'm not ready to do it . Um

33:24

, yeah. So I think they're desperate. I think,

33:27

you know, and I was framing it as look we've been doing

33:29

work on at a regional level on

33:32

energy transition ideas. Um,

33:35

you know, I think you can keep moving in the direction that,

33:37

you know, you need to go in because behind

33:39

closed doors, they all say, yes, we know

33:41

we need to act on climate change, but it's whether

33:43

or not they feel like they've built the political commission

33:46

to do what has been the block. Whereas

33:48

now they're like, can you show us how we can do

33:50

what we need to do and bring people

33:52

along with us, but that window,

33:55

you know, how long that's going to be open? I don't

33:57

know.

33:58

So that was my next question is like, so

34:00

the community saying, this is what we want,

34:03

governments are saying, we're looking for a different

34:05

way forward and we get it. What's

34:08

the next step? How , you know

34:11

, how does then this change

34:13

actually happen because we're kind of at this, I

34:16

feel like, well, I mean, it's a simplification.

34:18

We were at this point now this bifurcation point,

34:20

whereas everything's

34:23

fluid at the moment. And then

34:25

as we emerge out of,

34:28

out of this crisis that we're in right now,

34:31

there can be this , um, recovery

34:35

project. That's, you know, an amplification

34:37

of, of business as usual to try and get people

34:39

back on track. Or it can be

34:41

something more along what you're talking about.

34:44

So what is what needs to happen right

34:46

now to see

34:48

his head on the path that

34:51

you're describing? The community's asking

34:53

for that, you know, governments

34:55

are saying, they know the need that we know

34:57

that, you know, society

34:59

needs communities need the planet needs.

35:03

How can, what, what needs

35:06

to happen right now? I mean, I know that this is a

35:08

huge question and I don't expect that you can answer

35:10

because that's like the whole [inaudible] problems,

35:14

but, you know, but it is

35:16

a big question, isn't it? Because right

35:19

now it feels like there's a sense of urgency

35:21

about speaking

35:23

up right now

35:25

about the things that matter and putting on the table

35:28

firmly, real and

35:30

viable alternatives that

35:32

work that people want. And

35:34

that economically actually makes sense.

35:39

Um, well I think it's going to be

35:41

messy and I

35:44

think that I'm already starting to see just

35:46

in the last week or so, the number of voices

35:48

who are clamoring for attention around their economic

35:51

stimulus ideas have expanded

35:53

exponentially. We do know that

35:55

the minerals council of Australia, for example, has been

35:57

very quick off the Mark in putting in their

36:00

ideas and demands for how economic recovery

36:02

should go. And they've got direct access to the

36:04

prime minister's office. Um, you

36:06

know, the head of this COVID , um,

36:09

advisory group is,

36:11

you know. So it,

36:14

you know, that they're and

36:18

how much that, but I, I know

36:20

, I think something has fundamentally shifted. The Prime

36:23

Minister himself is saying we

36:25

can't go back to business as usual. So,

36:28

but what does he mean by that? I don't know.

36:31

We've got big groups like , um,

36:33

get up and some of the climate action, climate

36:35

groups , um , and environment

36:38

groups, and mobilizing their membership

36:40

around key demands and trying to encourage

36:43

people to get directly in contact with to

36:46

say, you know, we want you to build back better.

36:48

We don't want you to build back to the status quo. There's

36:51

a movement called #gobackbetter, u

36:54

m, s tarted circulating through social media.

36:56

So I think there's a

36:58

momentum and an energy around different

37:01

ideas and people wanting something

37:03

different is definitely there.

37:05

And I think the politicians are hearing it. U

37:09

m, which ideas take

37:11

hold, you

37:13

know, who knows what's

37:15

g oing t o take hold? U

37:18

m, I think that's how change happens.

37:20

Y eah. It's kind of, k

37:22

ind o f that sort of things bubbling underneath

37:24

the surface. And then which

37:26

thing pops up and i s g oing t o actually take root

37:28

a nd h oles and g row into something. S o it's

37:31

just going to get squashed or, u

37:33

m, covered

37:35

or..

37:35

What do you see happening around

37:38

the world at the moment in those sorts of

37:41

things that are popping up. I mean, there's things popping up

37:43

in Australia, but you're seeing other things happening

37:45

in other parts that we could, you

37:48

know, bring forward part of our conversation

37:50

more here.

37:52

Tell you the truth. I haven't been looking

37:54

at that much. We've actually, we've planning

37:57

to do a webinar series through the

37:59

next economy, looking at

38:01

how different countries are responding to the economic

38:03

stimulus, but interviewing people who are

38:06

working very much on economic transformation

38:08

and have been for decades to get their commentary

38:10

on what the opportunities are to

38:12

do things differently. And what's popping up in terms

38:14

of different economic movements. Um,

38:17

so if people interested in that they should sign

38:19

up, I guess, to the next economy page. And we

38:21

can talk about that.

38:22

How do they get on to finding.. How do

38:25

they get onto your list of information.

38:28

Can you share..

38:29

If you just go to the Next Economy's

38:31

website which is nexteconomy.com.au there's

38:34

a subscribe button, and then we'll send

38:36

you out any notifications of activities.

38:39

Um , so that's the webinar series. We'll

38:41

be directly , um , talking about that.

38:43

But , um, at the moment I haven't

38:45

actually been looking, I've been trying to spend

38:48

the time , um, where things

38:50

are slowing down on . I'm not traveling like a crazy

38:52

person to

38:54

actually just come back

38:57

, um , and reflect

39:00

on where we're at.

39:02

Um, and try and make sense of the

39:04

local first. So I haven't been

39:07

really looking globally at , but I

39:09

know there's been some really interesting webinars that

39:11

Naomi Klein's been doing. Um,

39:13

there was one that the Australia Institute this morning

39:16

interviewing Joseph Stiglitz, which apparently

39:18

haven't looked at yet, but it's quite revolutionary

39:20

and quite inspiring. Um,

39:23

u h, I think we c ould also not just look at how r

39:26

esponse i s happening now, but also previous responses,

39:28

like in times when G reece was

39:30

facing the austerity, how

39:32

communities organized and mobilized,

39:34

u m, and that led to political change.

39:37

There's been some interesting stuff in Spain as

39:39

well. U m, Argentina

39:41

about 20 years ago where we had workers taking

39:43

back over factories when they were closed. So

39:45

I think it's also looking at other times and looking

39:48

at how communities w ould responded. Detroit

39:50

and the growth of the food movement in Detroit.

39:53

U m, so I think there's plenty of examples

39:55

that we can, we can look to.

39:58

And even it's not such

40:00

a sort of an immediate thing,

40:02

but even looking at what's what happened in Maleny

40:04

for example, you know, it was a dying rural town.

40:07

How did it rebuild itself through these

40:09

of cooperatives and women's groups and, you know

40:11

, local banks and local economic systems.

40:13

And, you know, it's quite an interesting

40:16

story, the Maleny story, even, you

40:18

know , here in Queensland.

40:20

Yeah. And there's other examples popping up

40:22

now with a very similar model. Like you've

40:24

got Preston, but they're called movements

40:27

or , um, you

40:29

know yeah. There's things happening all over

40:32

the world right now. Yeah .

40:34

So, you know, sharing the, sharing these

40:36

and , and , um , sharing the stories of these . Cause,

40:38

you know, I , I don't know how much

40:41

the stories of other ones being told, but I know the story

40:43

of Maleny really hasn't been shared that very

40:45

much at all. And it's quite a remarkable story.

40:54

Well, thank

40:56

you so much for joining me today

40:58

and , um , um, I look forward to our ongoing

41:01

conversations because I know that , um,

41:03

you know, that's something that we do all the time.

41:05

We get on and have a chat about

41:08

what's going on in the world, what leadership is , where

41:11

the change needs to happen and, and I'm constantly

41:13

inspired by the work that you do. And

41:15

, and I know that everyone

41:18

who's listening to this is going to be signing up for

41:20

, um, for the webinar series and

41:22

, uh , do you have a newsletter as well that you

41:24

send out? Or what , how does it work?

41:26

Yes, we've got one in

41:28

process at the moment.

41:31

Excellent. Yeah.

41:31

Well maybe next time I can

41:33

interview you.

41:34

Yeah, let's do that. That sounds

41:39

like fun. Well

41:41

thank you so much. And I'll put

41:44

down all the links of things that you've mentioned

41:46

and , um , ways to get in touch with Amanda

41:49

as well. Well take

41:51

care and thanks for everything

41:53

you're doing. So

42:01

thanks for tuning in to the sense-

42:05

making in a changing world podcast today, it's been

42:08

a real pleasure to have your company.

42:10

I invite you to subscribe and

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42:17

wonderful stories, ideas, inspiration, and

42:20

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42:22

working regenerative and core positive

42:24

permaculture thinking of design

42:26

interaction in this changing world. I'm including

42:28

a transcript below and a

42:31

link also to my four-part permaculture

42:33

series, really looking at what is permaculture and how

42:36

to make it your livelihood too. So

42:39

join me again in the next

42:41

episode where we talk with another fascinating guest, I look forward to seeing you there.