0:00

Welcome to the Sense-making in a Changing World Podcast, where we explore the kind of thinking we need to navigate a positive way forward. I’m your host Morag Gamble.. Permaculture Educator, and Global Ambassador, Filmmaker, Eco villager, Food Forester, Mother, Practivist and all around lover of thinking, communicating and acting regeneratively. For a long time it's been clear to me that to shift trajectory to a thriving one planet way of life we first need to shift our thinking, the way we perceive ourselves in relation to nature, self, and community is the core. So this is true now more than ever. And even the way change is changing, is changing. Unprecedented changes are happening all around us at a rapid pace. So how do we make sense of this? To know which way to turn, to know what action to focus on? So our efforts are worthwile and nourishing and are working towards resilience, regeneration, and reconnection. What better way to make sense than to join together with others in open generative conversation..

0:56

What better way to make sense than to join together with others in open generative conversation. In this podcast, I'll share conversations with my friends and colleagues, people who inspire and challenge me in their ways of thinking, connecting and acting. These wonderful people thinkers, doers, activists, scholars, writers, leaders, farmers, educators, people whose work informs permaculture and spark the imagination of what a post-COVID, climate-resilient, socially just future could look like. Their ideas and projects help us to make sense in this changing world to compost and digest the ideas and to nurture the fertile ground for new ideas, connections and actions. Together we'll open up conversations in the world of permaculture design, regenerative thinking community action, earth, repair, eco-literacy, and much more. I can't wait to share these conversations with you.

1:54

Over the last three decades of personally making

1:56

sense of the multiple crises

1:58

we face I always returned to the practical

2:01

and positive world of

2:03

permaculture with its ethics of earth care, people

2:05

care and fair share. I've seen firsthand

2:07

how adaptable and responsive it

2:10

can be in all contexts from urban

2:12

to rural, from refugee camps to suburbs.

2:14

It helps people make sense of

2:17

what's happening around them and to learn

2:20

accessible design tools, to shape

2:22

their habitat positively and to contribute

2:24

to cultural and ecological regeneration. This is

2:26

why I've created the Permaculture

2:28

Educators Program to help thousands

2:30

of people to become permaculture

2:33

teachers everywhere through an interactive online

2:35

dual certificate of permaculture design and teaching.

2:37

We sponsor global Permayouth programs, women's

2:39

self help groups in the global South

2:41

and teens in refugee camps.

2:43

So anyway, this podcast is sponsored by

2:46

the Permaculture Education Institute and our Permaculture

2:48

Educators Program. If you'd like to

2:51

find more about permaculture, I've created a

2:53

four-part permaculture video series to explain what permaculture is and,

2:55

and also how you can make it, your livelihood as well as your way of life.

2:56

We'd love to invite you to join our wonderfully inspiring,

2:59

friendly, and supportive global learning community

3:02

community. So I welcome you to share each of

3:04

these conversations, and I'd also like to suggest

3:07

you create a local conversation circle

3:09

to explore the ideas shared in each show

3:11

and discuss together how this makes sense in

3:13

your local community and

3:16

environment. I'd like to acknowledge the

3:18

traditional custodians of the land on which I meet

3:20

and speak with you today.. The Gubbi Gubbi

3:23

people and pay my respects to

3:25

their elders past, present

3:26

and emerging.

3:28

My guest today on this episode of

3:30

Sense-making in a Changing World is permaculture

3:32

humanitarian Kym Blechynden who

3:35

for two decades has worked in some of the

3:37

most challenging places on earth.

3:40

Post-conflict places, disaster stricken, and

3:43

camps that have been flooded by those

3:45

fleeing from genocide. What Kim

3:47

does highlights so clearly the

3:50

people care and fair share aspects

3:52

of permaculture, but also why

3:55

it's so critical that we care for the

3:57

earth because the most vulnerable communities

3:59

suffer first and suffer the most.

4:02

And like Greta recently tweeted,

4:05

"Stop saying that we're in the same boat.

4:07

We're in the same storm, but we are not in

4:10

the same boat." So Kim

4:13

plays a really key role in organizations

4:15

like Permaculture Tasmania as well, Permaculture

4:18

Australia, and the Permafund. She's

4:20

lectured at the university of Tasmania

4:23

in public health and has worked for

4:25

over a decade in Red Cross. She's

4:28

also a member of the Southeast Asian

4:30

permaculture for refugees network. And

4:32

it's my really great pleasure to

4:34

welcome her to the show today.

4:37

Well, thanks so much for joining me today

4:40

on this show, because the work that

4:42

you've been doing in the world with permaculture is

4:44

absolutely phenomenal. And it's something that I would love

4:47

to learn more about and in thinking about how

4:49

I wanted to learn from you, I thought I'm sure everyone else

4:51

would love to hear what it is that you've been

4:53

doing too , because I hear

4:55

that you've been , you've been working with places like

4:57

red cross and UN and all different organizations

5:00

around the world. Places like Syria,

5:03

Nepal after the earthquakes

5:05

and Pakistan, in Bangladesh,

5:09

Fiji, South Sudan , the

5:12

places that you've been and the things that you've

5:14

seen and the ways in which you've been

5:17

taking your work in public health and permaculture

5:21

is phenomenal. And so I'd love to hear

5:24

a little bit about firstly, how

5:27

did you end up doing that

5:29

work and what drew you to do

5:31

permaculture in that way?

5:32

So, thanks

5:35

for having me, first of all, it's lovely to chat.

5:39

I've been working as a nutritionist

5:41

and in public health for about 20 years

5:43

and as a new graduate, I

5:45

thought, I don't want to have a 9 to 5

5:48

job. I want to be doing lots

5:50

of different things. And I shifted to central

5:52

Australia and started working for

5:55

an Aboriginal controlled organization in

5:57

malnutrition in remote

5:59

Aboriginal communities. And it

6:02

was an incredible experience as a new graduate.

6:04

So pretty young being able to learn

6:07

about different cultures, about different

6:09

food supply, about different challenges that

6:11

people had in being able

6:14

to access affordable, appropriate,

6:16

and healthy foods. And

6:19

my boss wanted me to be running food

6:22

demonstrations outside the clinic. So I

6:24

drive for 10 hours out to a remote community

6:26

of maybe 300 people. And

6:29

they want me to be standing at the front, you know, doing little cooking

6:31

demonstrations and handing out recipe cards.

6:33

And I was thinking, you know

6:35

what, I'm pretty sure there's a better way

6:37

to do this. And I asked her, why are

6:39

we doing it this way? And I said, well, this is what

6:41

we've always done. And I went sure,

6:44

but we're bringing food in from 10 hours

6:46

away because it's too expensive for us

6:48

as a large organization to purchase.

6:51

It's food that's not available locally. So

6:53

people can't access the food that I meant to be

6:56

teaching them how to cook anyway,

6:58

is this really going to address the problems

7:00

that we're seeing there with food security and

7:02

food access and the health

7:05

issues we'll say with high rates of diabetes

7:08

, and other things. And she said,

7:10

well, okay, then what do you think we

7:12

should do? And I said, well, I'm going to ask the community.

7:13

So I drove out there again in my troopy

7:16

for 10 hours. And we

7:18

sat down and had a chat with the clinic and

7:20

with some of the women, because culturally,

7:23

I only worked with the women said,

7:25

well, we want to learn more and take our kids

7:28

up for bush foods and for hunting

7:30

and the foods that are available here.

7:32

I said, okay, well, what's stopping

7:34

that happening now? The men usually have the

7:36

car because they're out hunting. So we

7:39

had a chat about how that could look and

7:42

the shopping list ended up looking like me

7:44

purchasing some little x's about

7:46

this big, which I was at , what are we gonna use

7:48

these for ? Um, some,

7:51

you know, some camp ovens, foil

7:54

containers of water that we could refill

7:56

, some crowbars

7:59

and all these different tools, which I

8:01

had a pretty hard time trying

8:03

to justify to my finance department,

8:06

why I'm buying these as part of a nutrition

8:08

program. But what ended up happening

8:11

was that we'd go out with the clinics . So we'd take

8:13

two cars, we'd go out with

8:15

the women and the take lots of different

8:17

children out as well. And that'd

8:20

be showing the children and reinforcing

8:22

these really important skills of how

8:24

to catch a goanna , how to catch food, what

8:27

foods are edible, which plants aren't edible

8:29

, where can find water, and then we'd sit down

8:32

and eat it together.

8:33

That then

8:35

led to other conversations about, okay,

8:37

what are the other issues in the community? How can

8:39

we address those and what are your solutions

8:42

to these? And it was a really important

8:44

moment in remembering

8:48

that the community has a lot of the solutions

8:50

and answers for the problems

8:52

that they're facing and the importance

8:55

of us coming in as guests,

8:57

listening to those and helping to facilitate

8:59

if needed and requested some

9:02

of those solutions. And, you know, it got

9:04

to the stage, I'd go out there and stay for a week. And

9:06

every time I'd turn up, there'd be this

9:08

growing number of women and children standing

9:10

there with these crowbars and Xs waiting

9:12

at the door, like, all right , conga , which

9:14

means young, white women , time to go hunting.

9:17

And then we'd take a couple of clinic cars and,

9:20

you know , that women would all be then getting their

9:22

blood sugars tested while they're out there.

9:24

And they'd have chats about health checks and

9:26

different things. And it

9:29

was just really cool. And I think it had a lot better

9:31

impact than, you know , me handing

9:33

out recipe cards to people who couldn't access

9:35

that food, may not have had the electricity

9:37

connected that week anyway, they generally

9:40

may have cooked over the fire on the electric

9:42

fry pan on it type thing. You

9:44

know, it was, it was more

9:46

real and it was community focused.

9:48

And I took that work with me when I

9:50

then worked in other States

9:53

and territories. So in far North Queensland

9:55

in Northern WA as well,

9:57

where again, it was a lot of work on

10:00

telling people what they should eat, as

10:02

opposed to addressing the issues

10:05

of why people were not eating

10:07

healthy foods in the first place. And

10:10

it helped a lot with understanding and

10:12

reinforcing, I guess, with people

10:14

I was working with saying, well, you know, we need to actually understand

10:16

the why, what the issue is,

10:19

and then come up with the solution, not the

10:21

other way around and make our solution fit

10:23

the problem.

10:24

I then started working internationally

10:27

and have been doing that for about 15

10:29

years in about 40

10:31

or 50 different countries around the world,

10:33

some in conflict zones . So working in Syria

10:36

for several years in the camps there,

10:38

which was incredibly tough for

10:41

the communities there and the conditions

10:43

and, you know, the conflict still going, as

10:45

we know now, and a lot of people are still

10:48

living in other countries and not their country

10:50

of choice. Working in

10:53

disease outbreaks where public health and permaculture

10:56

can play such a main, a

10:58

key role, you know, cholera outbreaks,

11:00

we've got these vaccine and these other

11:02

preventable diseases, which should not be happening

11:05

in the 21st century, but still

11:07

are that people are getting sick from unsafe

11:09

water and poor sanitation,

11:12

as well as lack of available healthy

11:14

foods. And then working in a lot of

11:16

natural disasters,

11:18

floods, earthquakes, typhoons,

11:23

droughts, any natural

11:25

disaster, which we're unfortunately

11:27

seeing an increase number

11:30

of as well as ferocity as we

11:32

have a changing climate around the world.

11:34

But also as we see differences

11:36

in where people are living, we've got more people living

11:38

in urban areas now in crowded areas,

11:41

perhaps where, when

11:43

we have big storms, like in Bangladesh where

11:45

their lands may be becoming inundated

11:47

or making areas unsafe . And

11:49

so I spent a couple of

11:51

years living in quite a lumper I'm

11:54

covering 38 countries across

11:56

Asia and the Pacific for emergency

11:58

response, nutrition and public health. And

12:01

then also spent a year living in Nepal as

12:03

well, which was great, again, working

12:05

more in the nutrition and public health

12:07

sphere as well. And now I'm

12:09

in Tazzy . So not

12:12

traveling anywhere at the moment due to COVID

12:14

restrictions, but still doing , international

12:18

work as well as working for permaculture

12:20

Australia one day a week, and doing

12:23

a lot of volunteer work with Permaculture Tasmania

12:26

and teaching and wearing

12:28

many hats as do many people as well,

12:31

like you as well. So that's me

12:33

in a nutshell.

12:33

So that's

12:35

an incredible experience that you've been having around

12:38

the world. And I love what you said about

12:40

starting really

12:42

in the early days of about responding rather

12:45

than going in with the idea. I guess that's a really,

12:47

a lot about what permaculture is about.

12:49

So, where in that journey

12:52

that you just described, did permaculture

12:55

enter into what you're doing and

12:58

how are you seeing it helping

13:00

both you as a professional, but

13:03

also the communities that you're working with?

13:07

I mean, I think depending

13:09

on which components of permaculture you look

13:11

at, it's been throughout all of the work

13:14

or organizations I've worked for. So if

13:16

you're looking at the ethics of people care,

13:18

earth care and fair share

13:21

some of the organizations I've worked with very

13:23

much embodied those

13:25

ethics in the way that they work and

13:27

what they do. And the same for some of

13:29

the international work that I've done, you know, we've

13:31

got 8 agencies and community

13:34

groups that are looking at water harvesting that

13:36

are running biodigester trials that

13:38

are looking at local

13:40

food production rather than bringing in

13:42

food from other countries as well. So

13:44

it may not be called permaculture,

13:47

but lots of the different strategies

13:49

or the principles or the ethics under

13:51

pin a lot of the work that's happening.

13:54

And I think that's why when I did do my

13:56

PDC - permaculture design course,

13:59

I've sort of like, AH! this is

14:01

what this stuff's called. I'm kind of already doing

14:03

bits of that and being exposed to that.

14:05

And, Oh, here's some new ideas and

14:07

here's some things that could be

14:09

done differently. And so it

14:12

, I think it's always been there, but now

14:14

it's got a name in my mind, but

14:16

as I said, it's a lot of these activities

14:19

do happen that people don't call it permaculture.

14:22

They may call it building resilience

14:24

in some of the aid agencies or activities

14:26

that are happening, or, you know , localization

14:28

where making sure that local communities

14:30

and local organizations are

14:33

leading the way and they're doing the work

14:35

and the activities. And we're not bringing in international

14:37

people and where we're looking at solar,

14:39

or we're looking at fuel efficient stoves, or,

14:42

you know, these other activities there.

14:43

From doing the PDC,

14:46

I then started getting more

14:48

engaged with permaculture organization.

14:51

So I've started working with permaculture organizations,

14:53

so Permaculture Tasmania, doing

14:56

some volunteer work, and then as their President

14:59

running different activities there and

15:01

building community activities, and

15:04

then got involved with Permaculture Australia

15:06

as a board director incredible

15:09

skills and learning. And now a s one of their paid

15:11

staff members as well. And

15:14

we're also doing some, some activities

15:17

with permaculture for refugees, which

15:20

is an incredible learning opportunity,

15:22

but also to see the great activities

15:24

that are happening with organizations in Bangladesh

15:27

and in the Philippines and Malaysia, which,

15:30

you know, all these different parts of the jigsaw

15:32

puzzle are forming, I guess. S o t hat's giving

15:35

me more confidence and ideas to then

15:37

advocate for in my other

15:40

work with the international organizations

15:42

to say, Hey, you know, what have you thought about this?

15:45

And don't be scared of that P word permaculture.

15:47

It's not this, you know, random

15:50

h ippie thing that people have said to me before.

15:52

What do you mean to that stuff for that? Well, it's not

15:54

stuff it's actually based on ethics

15:57

and principles there. I t's looking

15:59

at addressing some of the big issues

16:01

that we're facing at the moment. It's not

16:03

the only solution, but there a re some

16:05

great activities and

16:07

ideas there that we can use to

16:10

improve the work that we're doing, which

16:13

ultimately then improves the, the

16:16

livelihoods and the activities and the

16:18

community. And that's what we

16:20

want.

16:20

Do you think that somehow

16:23

you're talking about, you know, some people are working on a, like

16:25

a biodigester here, or another

16:28

technology there, have you found

16:30

that by using permaculture approach,

16:33

you're able to kind of like connect up some

16:35

of the dots of different projects? I mean, cause I feel

16:37

like that's where permaculture comes in.

16:39

It's rather than it just being a recipe for

16:42

some'thing' it's actually about how

16:45

you can kind of redesign the

16:48

way that all of that happens. And when I was talking

16:50

to Ro the other day too, about, she

16:52

was saying the three key things, she feels

16:54

the value of permaculture education in refugee

16:57

camps are for example, one is that a

16:59

lot of people living in refugee camps are there for

17:01

a long time. And so it's actually how

17:03

they can be feeding themselves and creating

17:06

a good life there now as best they

17:08

can with what they have. The second

17:10

one is that they're not just learning gardening

17:12

skills, but they're learning design skills,

17:14

which means that when, when, and if they get to

17:16

move somewhere else, they can assess

17:19

that place and design that they

17:21

get the chance to go back home. Then

17:23

they have the new capability

17:26

to see that place and to redesign

17:28

it and redesign it maybe better than what it was before.

17:30

So I think that kind of that

17:32

design and the systems approach seems

17:35

to me to be where

17:37

maybe the sweet spot for permaculture in this

17:39

thing and like the connective thread that it could

17:41

bring. Is that your experience with it? How do you feel are people

17:46

relating to it apart from going the

17:48

P word..

17:51

I totally agree. Because we

17:54

as humans seem to get trapped into this one

17:56

size fits all, what's worked here, we'll

17:58

work there, we'll work here and we'll just run

18:00

in and do this straight away . And it

18:03

reinforces it is a design.

18:06

We do need to look at the different principles and

18:08

ethics and see what's best suited for

18:10

that climate or that community or the

18:13

skillset they're available there, or the resources

18:16

that are available. And I think that's where

18:19

we should be doing that in our work activities

18:21

anyway, as , as I'd work as, or government

18:23

workers or whatever, but it's a good reminder

18:27

of the different steps

18:29

to take before committing

18:31

money, but before also running programs

18:34

and doing your assessment, that's basically what

18:36

it is, but making sure that your

18:38

solutions are a fit for the community,

18:40

but also fit for what you're trying to do as

18:43

well. To again, it's about making

18:45

sure that we've gotten the best result for the

18:47

community members, not for us. And so

18:50

it may be something that's out of our comfort. So

18:53

if it's going to work there, then that's what we should be advocating

18:55

for and making sure that that happens and

18:58

building on the skills that already exist,

19:01

any camp or community that you go

19:03

to, you know, you're not starting from ground zero.

19:05

You've got people there with incredible

19:07

knowledge and skills who, you

19:10

know, working in the camps in Bangladesh.

19:12

I remember when those 10,000

19:14

people crossing the border one day, these

19:16

people had been living on limited

19:19

food and water and escaping conflict

19:21

for up to three weeks and

19:23

trying to stay safe and helping the community,

19:25

and then setting up in a new country.

19:29

This really overcrowded camp

19:31

where there wasn't access to the

19:33

amount of water needed or food or other

19:35

things. And you know, this incredible resilience

19:39

of, okay, we're starting again, we're

19:42

safe. This is what we're going to do now. And moving

19:45

forward, I think if I was in that

19:47

situation, how would I cope? And

19:49

I don't think we give enough credit

19:51

to the community members we work with on just

19:53

how incredible the

19:56

journey people have gone on and how

19:58

they bounce back. And sometimes continually

20:00

bounce back and still are

20:02

able to put food on the table for

20:04

their kids, keep their family safe and

20:07

continue to try and make a better life for

20:09

them. And you know, that's really incredible.

20:11

And it's something that we can't teach if we're not from

20:14

that country or haven't been through that, our role

20:16

is to help facilitate the

20:18

solutions that the communities is saying.

20:21

We think this will work. Yep . Cool. Okay. So

20:23

how can we make that happen? I see that

20:25

that's what our role is, but I see

20:27

so many people that have a

20:29

different mindset. They're there as the saviors

20:31

or they're there they're coming in, this is what we're going to do.

20:33

It's like, have you ever been to this country? Do you know

20:36

how to grow food here? Oh no. I

20:38

live in a temperate climate and I'm now working in the tropics.

20:41

Well, perhaps I don't say

20:43

this, but it's thinking shouldn't you be listening

20:45

first and finding out a bit, a

20:47

bit more. And I think that's where

20:50

the permaculture can

20:53

play a key role also in that it does

20:56

build on, on localization. And it

20:58

does make sure that you look at all of

21:00

those different elements rather than just jumping

21:02

in head first and saying, this is what

21:04

we're going to do because we've always done this. Or,

21:06

you know, no dig gardens, you must have an no

21:08

dig garden or a herd spiral for it to be

21:10

permaculture. No, you don't actually! Look

21:13

at the context and the environment.

21:16

So anyway, jumped off my soap

21:18

box now, sorry!

21:19

No, thank you for saying that because it is so important.

21:21

I mean, the key part is about

21:24

the observation and

21:26

the listening and the responding and

21:28

being very locally contextualized.

21:31

And that's a lesson that is so obvious

21:33

when you're working in places like that, but

21:37

they remind you when you come back home also

21:40

how absolutely critical it is here,

21:42

that , you know, the idea that, you know , permaculture

21:44

is a herb spiral. You know , often I say

21:46

to my students, if I see a herb spiral in your design,

21:48

I'm actually thinking.. because

21:54

it's just taking

21:56

a pattern that seen somewhere in a book, which is a great

21:58

idea, but it doesn't necessarily relate

22:00

to every context and what it is, what

22:02

you need to be doing is going back into those principles

22:05

and thinking about how they apply in

22:07

that particular context. So

22:10

can you give us some examples maybe of

22:12

how you've seen permaculture

22:14

practically applied in some of

22:16

those landscapes, which are

22:18

beyond most people's imagination

22:20

because of the, you know, the

22:22

lack of space, I've seen

22:27

pictures of some of the places you've been to. I've

22:29

been to some places, but not where you've been

22:31

doing, I just, I couldn't

22:33

even begin to imagine where you would actually even

22:35

start with some of those places. So

22:38

can you maybe share a little bit about

22:40

how, how you manage in that context

22:43

with permaculture, but also on a personal

22:46

level? How do you internalize

22:50

what you see as an aid

22:52

worker?

22:52

Yeah, I

22:54

mean, for Bangladesh, that's definitely the hardest

22:57

place I've worked from being

22:59

there from the very start, when there was

23:01

tens of thousands of people crossing and I've

23:04

been there on and off, I think

23:07

10 times over the last two

23:09

years, doing, working with the same organization

23:11

and doing similar activities. And so it's

23:13

been great to see the changes

23:16

in the communities. Like i

23:18

n the start t hat was old rice patties

23:21

and r ainforest where elephants used to live,

23:23

which has now been cleared for close

23:25

to 1 million people in a very

23:28

small crowded area.

23:30

And some of the times

23:32

I w ent, i t was that, well, you know, there's landslides,

23:34

you're walking up steep inclines like

23:36

that in k nee deep mud, because there's been all

23:38

of this land clearing quickly trying to find

23:40

places for, for people

23:43

and, you know, setting up toilets

23:45

and latrines in wrong areas, which then

23:47

go down into the water supply because, you know, everyone

23:49

was working so quickly or there was some people

23:51

that didn't have the perhaps

23:53

necessarily skill set of,

23:56

of designing the where able

23:58

to supply should go. But then

24:00

going back over the years,

24:03

there's now a lot more greenery. There's been

24:05

a focus on r

24:07

e-planting. T here's fish farms. There's pumpkin

24:10

vines a nd, and plants

24:13

growing over these little, you know,

24:15

b amboo shelters where people are living.

24:17

So making stacking functions, making t

24:19

he use of vertical spaces, which also

24:21

then makes it a bit cooler for people in their houses.

24:23

If they've got greenery, you know, t his water

24:25

catchment happening where possible, t hen there's

24:28

this real focus now on

24:30

livelihoods and s ystem, local

24:33

food and people are given cash

24:35

rather than food r

24:37

ations. So they can go to the markets and buy what's useful

24:40

for them, for their family, which y

24:42

ou k now, is a nice sign of dignity as well. Give

24:44

people the choice. They know what's important

24:46

to their family, but it

24:48

wasn't like that in the start. And it was incredibly

24:51

tough. O ne, not sitting under tab pole..Now i

24:54

t's about nine o'clock at night. We still had people

24:56

arriving. W e're providing

24:58

first aid and vaccinations

25:00

and, y ou k now, screening children for malnutrition,

25:03

if they needed to go and get treatment and

25:05

r ehydration and so forth. And

25:07

I remember just looking around under this t ab p ole and

25:09

just drenched and covered in mud, surrounded

25:12

by tens of thousands of people

25:14

thinking what is going

25:17

on, how is this happening

25:20

in the 21st or any century for

25:22

that matter that we have this

25:24

situation and how a re w e going

25:26

to make sure we've got resources available

25:29

for these people that are going to be here for a

25:31

long time? You know, Syria conflict has

25:33

been going for six or seven years and I 've worked

25:37

when it was first set up on the border of Jordan

25:39

and Syria. It's still there now.

25:42

We've got people living in Lebanon and other other

25:44

countries. So as R O said,

25:47

and as you mentioned earlier, it's about looking

25:51

at l ong t erm activities.

25:53

And when we're setting up camps, if we have

25:55

the time, which we didn't for bazaar due

25:58

to the rapid

26:00

influx, designing

26:02

these aspects in there for safe

26:04

water, for safe sanitation,

26:07

for food growing areas. So there is space

26:10

for people to safely grow food that's not

26:12

contaminated, or that for women

26:14

don't need to go outside of the camp where it may or

26:16

may not be safe for them to go to the fields or

26:19

perhaps i t's landmines or other things to consider.

26:21

But then

26:23

working in places like Laos, w

26:25

here I was working with the ethnic

26:27

minority groups in Southern Laos on

26:30

a project. All

26:32

of these factors had been considered for

26:35

food supply and the program wasn't looking

26:37

at, you know, go down to the markets,

26:39

which is two hours drive away and it'll cost you

26:41

this much money to get a tuktuk to get there.

26:44

It was actually looking at the local foods

26:46

available and how to prepare

26:49

them and how to preserve them and food

26:51

preservation techniques and these other really

26:53

cool things that are looking at the food supply

26:56

there. And that was great

26:58

watching t hat a ctivities. A nd that was funded by

27:00

a major UN organization

27:03

that was doing that work rather than bringing

27:05

in this continuous food rations. It

27:08

was creating some more independence, but

27:10

also focusing on people's

27:13

cultural beliefs and I guess,

27:15

traditions and acknowledging and supporting

27:17

those rather than wiping

27:19

them out sometimes with bringing in food

27:21

from another country. So there's

27:23

heaps of great stuff that, that

27:26

you see, the things

27:28

that could be tweaked. Nothing's perfect, but it's

27:30

a continuous making sure that

27:32

you're a strong advocate for your community

27:35

members o r your s taff and your team

27:37

members. If they're

27:39

saying, look, we don't like this, or we think this could

27:41

be done better, t hen you can take that

27:43

role and be that voice where people

27:46

may not feel comfortable to be able to do that

27:48

in dealing with the donors who may have

27:50

very strict ideas of this is

27:52

what we want you to do. And you're going

27:55

back to t hem a nd s aying, that's

27:57

great, but perhaps we could tweak it a bit

27:59

and do this. What do you think about that? And this is

28:01

why, and you be that strong voice

28:04

and let people on the ground get on and do the job

28:06

that they do so well there as well.

28:08

So that's where I see the

28:10

role o f where I've seen the greatest, I

28:13

guess, benefit and the greatest outcomes

28:16

in really cool stuff happening, which is

28:18

just such a privilege to be involved

28:20

with and learn from each time.

28:23

Yes. But you're right though, you know, like this

28:26

issue of displaced

28:28

people, refugees is

28:31

growing from

28:34

conflict and from climate

28:37

and environmental degradation,

28:40

you know, just land being no longer

28:42

suitable for people. And I

28:44

worry at the moment too..and I'd

28:47

love to get your input

28:49

on this. I've

28:52

been having people reaching out to me

28:54

in the work that I'm doing, saying, you know, our

28:56

food rations have gone down. P

29:01

e ople in these camps, the ones that I'm talking about, th

29:03

e o nes in Uganda and Kenya in p

29:05

a rticular, bu t l ike we're going around

29:07

and checking on these families and people are starving

29:11

and there's less

29:13

food aid getting to these communities.

29:15

There's not enough gardens that are already

29:18

set up th ere. The prices

29:20

of the local food is starting to spike.

29:23

And so there's this domino

29:25

effect that is rippling

29:28

out fo r t hese ca mps, which

29:30

is, and then with all the lockdown as

29:32

well, because th ey're a ll being locked down into

29:34

their little, can't go

29:37

further than a certain space and

29:43

devastation in some communities is possible

29:45

through this. And it worries

29:47

me a l ot. The news

29:51

is not actually getting out about that

29:53

this is happening in the world. I'm not seeing

29:55

that re aching o ut. And

29:58

so one of the things that I've been

30:00

doing in the capacity that I can is really

30:02

trying to support those people, reaching

30:04

out to access them to, as I n eed to start

30:06

the community gardens, kitchen gardens. I mean,

30:09

so it's kind of just like the one

30:11

thing that they wa nted. Th ey h a ve b een asking for help

30:13

to get their own little kitchen

30:16

garden around their homes and around

30:18

their little community center or school happening so

30:20

food first rapidly

30:22

growing th ings. So just, you

30:25

know, getting seeds, getting tools, getting, you

30:27

know, watering equipment so that

30:29

they can do that. And then get

30:33

to a stage where they can show

30:35

other people and then they can keep rippling it out as

30:37

being kind of teachers from that point.

30:39

So they're asking actually for support, for creating

30:41

like a little permaculture school in o ne of the communities

30:43

I'm working with, which is with teenagers

30:46

and the teenagers ar e w anting to go through and get

30:48

there to be qualified as pe

30:50

rmaculture. So then they see in the future that

30:53

they can be either designers or b etter farmers

30:55

or make it a l ivelihood from

30:57

this. So, h

31:01

ave you seen this trend

31:03

of, t here being

31:05

less food available in camps

31:08

and what is the, what's the

31:10

number that you've heard of lately of

31:13

the number of displaced peoples around

31:15

the world?

31:17

That number... I've heard many numbers for

31:19

that. Um, that varies, I think , depending

31:22

on what source. But it's too high,

31:24

it's too high. We'll stick with that. The

31:27

number is absolutely increasing

31:30

with the number that are displaced internally,

31:33

as well as those that are refugees. Those

31:35

that are crossing borders as well.

31:37

And, you know, the , the changing climate

31:40

is going to see that increase.

31:43

It's not just conflict. That's leading

31:45

for people to move, to

31:47

find safety somewhere else. Now we've got

31:49

rising sea levels in parts of the Pacific.

31:51

We're seeing people moving to, to other

31:53

islands, which they can no longer grow food or

31:55

home.. Their housesnow no

31:58

longer there, because the water has risen to where

32:00

it used to be . We're

32:02

we're seeing people moving due to land

32:05

use changes. So a number of countries,

32:08

which I won't name that I've worked in,

32:10

people have been forcibly removed either due

32:12

to new

32:15

projects that are creating money

32:17

for other people, whether that's mining, whether

32:19

that's large dams or

32:21

areas to be able to produce hydro,

32:24

whether it's people now using the land

32:26

for cash crops. So for biofuels or for

32:28

rubber plantations or date plantations.

32:31

So people are being forcibly removed

32:33

as well as I've got other people who are moving

32:36

for climate or conflict

32:38

races as well. And so we're seeing this. It's getting

32:41

more and more complex, basically why people

32:44

are moving and while we're getting an increasing

32:46

number, but it's also making the

32:48

solutions really tough as

32:50

well.

32:50

We've got a lot of people stuck in really

32:53

dire conditions.

32:55

Then, you know, before COVID, we

32:57

had challenges with people being

32:59

able to access safe places to

33:01

live and set up a new life. Before COVID,

33:05

we already had people that were struggling

33:07

to find somewhere safe to live

33:09

and set up a new life for their family. And that's

33:11

only going to increase when we've

33:14

got people moving to more

33:16

and more cities. So we've got an increased rate of urbanization.

33:19

We now have climate change diseases that

33:21

we're seeing an increasing, you know, we've got increased

33:23

rates of mosquito-borne disease because

33:25

people are living in closer quarters. There's more

33:28

construction rubble, there's warmer climates

33:30

where mosquitoes are now thriving more.

33:33

And we've got food supply further

33:35

away from people because land is

33:37

having taken by people to live on, or it's been

33:39

unindicted by water or other

33:42

uses. And when we look

33:44

at all of those factors together, it's going against

33:46

what we know will

33:48

help people access food better by having

33:50

it closer to home where it doesn't

33:52

rely on fossil fuels so much for growing

33:55

and transport and processing where

33:58

it helps reduce some

34:01

of the issues we're seeing from

34:03

climate change in the climate crisis at the moment.

34:05

And that we've got this system

34:07

set up in some places where food security

34:09

is so incredibly tough for people with

34:12

the global food system and tariffs

34:14

and trade regulations

34:16

and rules, which don't necessarily help

34:19

those that probably need the help, the

34:21

most, the poorer communities who

34:23

are being squeezed out of the markets

34:25

or who are producing cash

34:27

crops rather than food for themselves

34:29

to be able to eat or not being

34:31

able to access seeds, that they can seed to

34:34

continue with their, with their crops.

34:36

And I think permaculture can,

34:39

can look at local activities, but it can

34:41

also advocate for changes

34:43

in a community and a regional and

34:45

a global level as well, because unless we dismantle

34:49

and address some of those systems, which

34:51

are restricting food security

34:53

or health of communities, we can have

34:56

as many kitchen gardens as we want, but we're still

34:58

not going to address some of the big picture stuff as

35:00

well. And so we need that pronged approach with

35:03

kitchen gardens and not just veggies, but

35:05

also looking at animals in kitchen gardens.

35:07

So we get the full nutrition requirements

35:10

of the eggs or the dairy, or of

35:12

the larger bean crops, which are so important

35:15

for nutrition. And then looking at why

35:18

are we going into the supermarket and buying

35:20

lemons from America where in Tasmania

35:22

every... Person has a lemon

35:24

tree. Why are we not using those

35:26

lemons in the supermarket or from

35:29

roadside stalls or bartering? Why are we not looking

35:31

at local food supply and strengthening that?

35:33

Why do we not respect farmers more? And

35:36

look at farming as an

35:38

incredible occupation which provides

35:40

food that we need to survive and respecting

35:43

those farmers and looking at support

35:45

for local farming and food sovereignty

35:48

and seed sovereignty and all of that good stuff.

35:51

But why are we focusing instead on these other,

35:53

other activities. So I don't think I answered your question.

35:56

I talked around in a circle there, but

35:58

I think it's important and why can

36:01

play a role.

36:01

Yeah. You know, you answered it perfectly.

36:03

And a lot of the things that you raised

36:06

there, I think are critical for us to

36:09

focus on. One is seed sovereignty,

36:11

because this , I see everywhere

36:13

is being one of the biggest issues, like say for

36:15

example , in Kenya, they're

36:18

telling me that it's actually illegal

36:20

for them to save and sell

36:22

local seeds. And so,

36:24

you know, it's that advocacy level

36:26

that you mentioned. So it's all

36:28

well and good to create the gardens , but there's this other

36:31

shift that needs to happen to unlock the

36:33

potential for the local food movement

36:35

to flourish. I mean, it's what they keep saying they want

36:37

to do. And they see the benefit of it, but they keep

36:39

getting blocked by these

36:42

government regulations

36:45

that are been done in conjunction with the big corporation.

36:48

So it's kind of just locked everything

36:50

down. Um, but there are seed

36:52

saving organizations that are.. it seems

36:54

to be challenging for them to

36:56

access them. And also, you

36:59

know, a lot of education around because....

37:07

It's such a fast, I've

37:09

seen people grow things like I need to grow things

37:11

really fast because I have this family

37:14

that's hungry. And so the plant and you

37:16

eat everything that you've planted rather than saving

37:18

the ones for next year. So it's that kind of being

37:21

able to stretch into that longer term thinking

37:23

or in , you know , starting with the very

37:26

fast then moving to the perennials and the tree crops

37:28

and the animals, but that takes that longer term

37:31

thinking of, well, I'm just here in a refugee

37:33

camp for short time, or am I actually going to

37:35

be here for long? You know, this

37:37

is the long haul, but..So seed

37:39

sovereignty is one thing. And actually really

37:41

looking at what kind of seeds

37:44

are available to people to even get started.

37:46

I mean , giving, you know , seed for

37:48

them to start , they can't be saved to the next year is

37:50

, is also so problematic.

37:54

Then you mentioned food sovereignty

37:56

and that was a term that I think is a really

37:58

important one. It's not just about food

38:01

security and having enough calories is that

38:03

it's actually about, as you were saying several

38:05

times throughout our conversation so far

38:07

about, you know, what is appropriate food?

38:10

What is the food , what is the food

38:12

system that enables people in that situation

38:14

to be able to make the choices and the

38:16

decisions and to actually meet their families and

38:19

their cultural needs appropriately and

38:22

with dignity and that, that kind of food

38:24

sovereignty concept is something

38:26

that I think permaculture also

38:28

does bring in really nicely into things.

38:30

So with this multipronged

38:33

approach and we thinking

38:35

big and thinking local simultaneously,

38:39

what can the international permaculture community

38:41

be doing more to

38:44

help people who are in

38:46

the global South who are really suffering?

38:48

Look, I think it's a really

38:50

great question. And, you know, thinking

38:53

we have these global systems and it can

38:55

be, you can look at them and go, well, how much

38:57

are you going to make a difference there

38:59

? They're so ingrained. It's such a big

39:01

problem of how we can address food

39:04

security or access to water or access

39:06

to land for people around the world. But

39:08

it's about starting with what we can do. And,

39:11

you know, we do have powerful voices

39:13

that we can use for advocacy, not just

39:15

within our own networks, but for

39:17

you, for example, with the tens of thousands

39:19

of people, you are reaching with your YouTube,

39:22

with your other activities that you're doing with teaching,

39:24

when we're teaching people, it's about reminding

39:27

them of how we can make a difference

39:30

and obtaining yield from the work that we're

39:32

we're doing. And, you know, look at some of the permaculture

39:34

principles in how we work, know

39:37

that we do need to address some of this big stuff,

39:39

but also do some of the local and community

39:41

stuff as well. So you can actually

39:46

see that you're making work

39:48

with organizations that are based there,

39:51

you know , working with a number of the organizations I

39:53

work with. The

39:55

stuff from that community and that country

39:58

there on the ground. And there may be me or one other person

40:00

that pops in and out to work

40:02

with them. But, you know, you've got that long term

40:04

knowledge that longterm understanding

40:06

of people living and working in that

40:08

country and community build with the communities

40:11

and the organizations that

40:13

are there and that are asking for help and

40:16

help them continue to come

40:18

up with the solutions with what they're

40:20

trying to do with working in

40:22

the camps and other settings. There's a lot

40:24

of international and national on

40:27

civil society organizations

40:30

they're.. Infiltrate some of them and

40:32

say, Oh, you know, you know, what you're doing is

40:35

actually permaculture. Can I, can we

40:37

work together on some training or some activities

40:40

there and really value added, you know,

40:42

donors are looking for this these days, we have

40:44

these sustainable development goals, for

40:46

example, which donors and agencies

40:49

and organizations are meant to be, and

40:52

government submit to be looking towards with the work they're

40:54

doing. And, you know, one of them is climate change.

40:56

One of them is sustainable food production.

40:59

One of them is looking at

41:01

these local activities. We can

41:03

use that to our advantage as

41:06

can the organizations to leverage funding,

41:08

which unfortunately funding is

41:11

needed for some of these activities, but also

41:14

it gives access to the communities to be able

41:16

to help them with the solutions

41:18

they're coming up with to make sure that

41:20

there is local food activities happening,

41:22

that people have access to water, to sanitation,

41:25

to these basic fundamental human

41:27

rights, which it makes such a huge difference

41:29

to people's lives.

41:30

So looking at

41:32

where we can obtain a yield and working

41:34

with what exists and how we can infiltrate

41:36

a nd value add that with the different

41:39

policies that we can use to our advantage, like

41:41

the SDGs, they're not perfect, but they're there.

41:44

And we can use them for leverage. At

41:46

a more national level, join your local

41:49

perma organization or other g roup get

41:51

involved. Whether it's PA, whether it's

41:53

your state or territory organization,

41:56

there's a local seed savers group, a local

41:59

community garden, whatever it is, get

42:01

involved with something, get involved with more than

42:03

something and learn

42:06

from those activities you're doing as well as contribute

42:08

as well. So it's that two-way learning

42:11

and activities, because there's so much

42:13

we can do, and we can get bogged down with what

42:15

we can't do, that

42:17

we may sit there f or so long to s ay, Oh, it's

42:19

too frustrating. It's too much, what are we going to do?

42:21

Or I must go off and do another course, or I'll

42:24

learn some more, you've got skills and knowledge already

42:26

use that. Use what you've

42:28

got. J oin up with other people

42:30

who have got other skills and join

42:33

up and become a force, become that snowball that

42:35

keeps growing and growing to be able to address

42:38

some of these issues, because we don't have

42:40

a lot of time. We know that things

42:42

are getting worse and funding is

42:44

going to get harder to access

42:46

for international work anyway, with

42:49

COVID. But with the economic ramifications

42:52

that are happening from that, you

42:54

know, a id budgets are going

42:56

to decrease and we need to get more

42:58

creative and savvy i n how we continue

43:01

to do these lifesaving activities

43:03

with people and improve the lives

43:05

for hundreds of millions of people around

43:08

the world. Box again, sorry!

43:13

Absolutely! What you're saying and what I'm , what

43:15

I'm hearing , is

43:19

an absolute passion and

43:21

a deep understanding of how

43:24

the change can happen. And that through your

43:26

experience in all these different places that permaculuture is

43:30

something that can make a difference in these places.

43:32

And I think that's something that needs to be heard.

43:35

So that it gives people a sense of confidence

43:37

and to advocate for

43:39

it. Because, you know , sometimes there's been

43:41

a question like, Oh, is it actually what

43:43

is needed in those places? And I think

43:45

what you're saying is yes, absolutely contextualize,

43:48

localize, driven by local communities.

43:51

It does provide a platform, then

43:53

they can actually

43:55

make a huge difference. And it's something that

43:58

has this kind of a global connection, which means

44:00

that you can also then talk to

44:03

larger organizations. And so my,

44:06

I loved what you said about just start doing

44:09

it wherever you are, whatever skills you have,

44:11

contribute them, whatever skills you have share

44:13

them and teach other people. You don't have to be an expert

44:16

to start teaching whatever, you know, and whatever you can

44:18

do in your local community. And

44:20

it's a way to build up your

44:22

capacity, your confidence, your skills. And so

44:24

then at some point, if there's a way

44:26

to actually reach out and help other

44:28

people, then you have

44:30

a skill base. You're not going in fresh

44:33

to do that. So if someone did actually

44:35

want to do something like

44:37

what you're doing, doing

44:40

permaculture work, professionally, helping

44:42

people in other parts of the

44:44

world, what would you recommend

44:47

that they would do to

44:49

be able to enter into that path? And

44:51

I know it's not one little answer, and I know it's a lifetime

44:54

of experience and it's all of those answers

44:56

as well. But is there anything particular that you'd .. you

44:59

would say to them.

45:00

I mean, I think

45:03

it's about doing your research about where

45:06

your skills may or may not be needed

45:08

because it is acknowledging that there is capacity

45:11

that exists in lots of places already.

45:14

And that's great. We want to build on

45:16

that and use that local skills, but

45:19

start from home first, there's so much

45:21

we can be doing here. How many people were caught

45:23

out with the COVID-19

45:26

pandemic of not being prepared? You know, we had

45:28

the great toilet paper buyouts

45:30

of 2020, and then the veggie

45:32

seedlings and then the seeds and, you

45:35

know, the activities

45:37

we can do from here, from home in

45:40

seed saving, in local

45:42

food supply, building skills and knowledge

45:44

starting from disasters, with bushfires

45:47

, with pandemics, with floods, with whatever

45:50

may be coming in the future as well.

45:54

Look at what we can do locally here

45:56

as well. If you see a gap overseas,

45:59

and there's an organization that asks for help,

46:01

then by all means, see how you can do

46:03

that together. But I've seen

46:05

a lot of people who, who are so keen

46:07

to help and that's, you know, that's the nature

46:10

of our human nature. We wanted to help and

46:12

do things, but make sure

46:14

that help is wanted and also that

46:16

the skills match up as well. And perhaps

46:18

the best way you can help is be a voice from

46:22

your land or wherever you're based to

46:24

advocate for funding for those people and

46:26

help get that funding over there rather than you

46:28

jumping on a plane when COVID-19

46:31

restrictions lift and flying over there and

46:33

helping. So I guess it's about looking at

46:36

permaculture and doing that assessment again,

46:38

where will you have time ? Where will the greatest

46:41

yield be obtained and where

46:43

can you help the most? But don't forget

46:45

that there's a huge amount

46:47

of work that can happen here in Australia

46:49

with having our communities.

46:51

So not our individuals, but our communities

46:53

being resilient to be able to respond.

46:56

And then if requests come from overseas,

46:59

by all means work together with local

47:01

groups and help value them and help

47:05

with how they're asking you to help

47:07

and help that way rather than going and

47:09

saying, well, this is what we could do. It's like, okay,

47:11

what would you like to do? And how can I help best

47:14

and matching it that way? If that makes sense.

47:17

Cause there's heaps of opportunities out there. It's not saying

47:19

don't go overseas. It's about look

47:22

at where the best yield comes

47:24

from and where the skills are required,

47:26

where you can value add the best as well.

47:28

And just, you've

47:30

mentioned bushfires there. And I know that

47:34

there was the droughts , then there was a bushfires and then

47:36

COVID hit. It almost

47:38

feels like there's this whole waves

47:40

of community that have just been almost forgotten.

47:44

And you were involved. I know

47:46

in doing an assessment, is that Kangaroo

47:48

Island?

47:49

Yeah, it was.

47:49

Can you just share just a little bit of your experience?

47:52

I know we're sort of getting to the end of our time and have

47:55

many questions . I'd

47:57

like to find out more about that , your

47:59

experience there, how that,

48:02

how the bushfires impacts those communities and maybe

48:04

how you've seen possibly a

48:07

permaculture type approach can help rebuild.

48:09

Yeah, I mean, working in kangaroo

48:11

Island, I was there a couple of, probably

48:14

a month or so after the bushfires supporting

48:16

some of the grants programs and assessments

48:19

and the scale of damage was

48:21

immense half of the Island impacted,

48:23

you know, tourism largely shut down

48:25

because a lot of the national parks were

48:28

closed due to safety, but also

48:30

because the fire had gone through there

48:33

and people's livelihoods

48:35

disappeared overnight, basically. Plus

48:38

the, you know, the rebuilding of

48:42

when you've got houses you

48:44

have to wait for people to be able to come in and safely

48:47

remove that and then transport it off an Island

48:49

that added element of it , an Island

48:51

context. And, you know, there was

48:53

some great activities that were happening afterwards.

48:56

So there's a number of permaculture-focused people

48:58

that were doing activities in

49:00

the national parks, helping with the

49:02

rebuilding infrastructure and looking at some of

49:06

the disease reduction of, you know,

49:08

spreading and other things in there.

49:10

But ialso community gardens were springing

49:12

up with, I think Sophie Thomson from

49:15

Gardening Australia went over and did some activities

49:17

and looking more at, okay,

49:20

if this happens again, what do we have

49:22

in place to be able to look at our food

49:24

supply? Cause we're on an Island, are we growing local

49:26

foods? Have we

49:28

got access to water to be able to defend? What

49:31

designing for disaster aspects do we

49:33

have in play? And some I

49:35

spoke to lost

49:38

not only all their fences, which is pretty

49:40

important when you've got animals, but lost

49:42

all of their livestock as well and you see these big

49:45

mounds , which is where that actually just buried their

49:48

livestock, that perished. And then other farmers

49:50

had said, well, we kept some of our paddocks

49:52

just have green grass. We didn't graze on it.

49:55

And we kept that there as a buffer. So when the

49:57

fires came through, they moved their livestock there

50:00

and the fire didn't burn that area. And it

50:02

saved a lot of their livestock.

50:05

They had sprinklers set up, they had buffers set

50:07

up, they had all these other things

50:09

that they'd thought off to minimize

50:11

the impact, which unfortunately, some of

50:13

the people who didn't

50:15

have, or they lived closer to the plantations

50:18

and, you know, the just whipped through so quickly

50:20

, um, there with the heat and the fuel.

50:22

I think what you're saying is really

50:25

in many ways that permaculture seems

50:27

to be an under underpinning way

50:30

of thinking a way of design that, you

50:33

know, we need everywhere and, you

50:35

know, it's something that we need to be able to,

50:38

to share in so many different places.

50:39

And one of

50:43

the current projects that I'm trying to find

50:45

out information about is there, is

50:47

there a set of materials that's

50:50

available for young

50:52

people in particular, you know,

50:54

teenagers to be able

50:56

to teach permaculture in refugee camps. So

50:58

the teachers there and have these kids, do you know

51:00

of anything that's available, but because

51:03

I know that people go in and they teach it and then they teach

51:05

it and it keeps going word

51:07

of mouth, but we can't get there

51:09

right now. And so I'm just wondering what,

51:11

what exists that's usable

51:13

for working

51:17

with the local teachers that they can then use

51:19

that as materials to teach other people.

51:22

Yeah . I mean, it sounds fantastic and I wish

51:24

it did exist. I don't know of anything, but

51:26

if I do find anything, I'll suddenly.. Connection

51:33

could be such tricky if people are doing zoom

51:35

or , or online teaching, there's not always internet

51:39

connection to be able to do though. So

51:41

it's going back to the flip chart paper

51:43

and the hands on resources and sketching

51:45

in the, in the dirt, in the outdoor

51:47

classrooms, which you

51:50

often need to be there or train someone

51:52

beforehand that they do that, of course, but

51:54

it sounds very exciting.

51:55

We'll see. I

51:59

hope. Fingers crossed. I'm looking for some resources,

52:01

maybe, you know, maybe a few of us could kind of

52:05

put our heads together to work out what might

52:07

be the best , most

52:09

appropriate, simple set that can kind

52:11

of be the catalyst for this. Cause who knows how

52:14

long it's going to be before we can actually get back to

52:16

various places.

52:17

Exactly. That sounds

52:19

really cool.

52:19

Thank you so

52:21

much for your time today, Kym. It's been

52:24

an absolute pleasure and an honor to

52:26

meet you I mean the work that you're doing in the

52:28

world. I mean, thank you,

52:30

thank you for everything that you do.

52:32

And also thank you for being at the helm

52:34

of Permaculture Australia and the local

52:37

permaculture Tasmania stepping

52:39

up and being a kind

52:42

of a local leader in that because you

52:44

know . It takes time and takes effort, but it's so

52:46

rewarding. And I encourage other

52:49

people to, to step up and speak

52:51

up in your local communities. You know,

52:53

if there's a local group, join it, put your

52:55

hand up, don't sit on your hands. Um

52:57

, you know, if there's not a local group, maybe think

53:00

about starting with one up. Well,

53:04

thank you so very much, Kym, it's been an

53:06

absolute pleasure chatting today and

53:08

I'm sure..I'm definite,

53:10

there's so much that is

53:14

absolute gold that people can learn

53:16

and take away from this conversation.

53:17

No worries. Thank

53:19

you so much for having me. Thanks for your support

53:22

to PA as well. It's greatly

53:24

appreciated. Thanks for all the great

53:26

work you're doing as well. It's amazing.

53:29

Thanks, Kym. Thanks

53:33

for tuning in to the sense- making

53:35

in a changing world podcast today, it's

53:37

been a real pleasure to have your company.

53:40

I invite you to subscribe and

53:42

receive notification of each new weekly

53:45

episode with more wonderful stories,

53:47

ideas, inspiration, and common

53:49

sense for living and working

53:52

regenerative and core positive permaculture

53:54

thinking of design interaction in

53:56

this changing world. I'm

53:58

including a transcript below and a link

54:00

also to my four-part permaculture

54:03

series, really looking at what is

54:05

permaculture and how to make it your livelihood too.

54:08

So, join me again in the next

54:10

episode where we talk with another fascinating

54:13

guest, I look forward to seeing you there.