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Hello lovely humans, I'm Wai'o Lee and

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you are listening to Sex Stories, a

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podcast where we interview some of the

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most incredible writers, performers, educators, and human

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advocates in an effort to learn about

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pleasure-filled connections. And our guest today happens

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to be all of those things in

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one awesome package. She is a white

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Jewish cisphim who is non-monogamous, queer, and

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loves cucks, subs, and power play. She's

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done a lot of robot roleplay which

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I am so excited to hear about,

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is interested in nun and religious play,

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has stories of teaching blowjob workshops,

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cold reading other people's kinks on the

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fly, and talking about sex with strangers,

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my favorite. Past

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sexy jobs include sex shop worker, which

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I really feel like we need a

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better name for because it includes a

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fuck ton of sex education both receiving

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and giving, and she also has worked

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as a phone sex operator, a writer,

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burlesque performer, social worker, and all around

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creative genius from the east coast, and

1:00

author of Naked on Sex Work and

1:02

Other Burlesques which I just read and

1:04

is truly a wonderful collection of sex stories. Go get

1:06

it, go read it. If you get it from the

1:08

library make sure to tip her in some way, shape,

1:10

or form. Welcome fancy feast! Hell yeah,

1:13

thanks for having me. I am so

1:15

excited that you are here today. Can you

1:17

start off by telling us, if you had

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to rate yourself today on a shame-o-meter with

1:21

one being, I don't have any shame, and ten

1:23

being like, oh yeah, so shame-y, where

1:25

are you today and why did you pick that number? Oh,

1:28

I'm pretty high up on the shame-meter.

1:30

Really? I know, shocking right? We're starting

1:32

off with like a- I am shocked, yeah. Yeah,

1:35

my shame is not a sexual shame. I will

1:37

say that. My sexual shame is at zero, it

1:39

usually is, but like in terms of just like

1:41

general shame, yeah, like higher than usual. Maybe like

1:44

a seven? Okay, when did it

1:46

fluctuate? Okay, so not so much with the sex, but

1:48

like how do you- I am trying to figure out

1:50

shame. I feel it in funny places I gather by

1:52

talking to people, but I would love to just hear

1:54

a little bit about your roller

1:56

coaster of shame. Oh,

1:58

okay, so let's see. been in

2:00

breakup season. And so one

2:03

of the things that I've been doing

2:05

this breakup season is really taking the

2:07

opportunity to do a deep personal inventory.

2:10

And so that is accompanied by discovering things

2:12

about myself that I thought I knew and

2:14

did not actually know. So there's been a

2:16

lot of sort of breaking open this season.

2:19

And it's shame and curiosity. Like I do

2:21

feel like there's a certain

2:23

kind of shame that like forecloses on curiosity. But

2:25

then there's a shame that's like, how did I

2:27

not know this about myself? You know, I'm supposed

2:30

to be so self aware. So that's kind of

2:32

where I'm at right now. Like, what

2:34

is that like an auto sociological shame? Wow.

2:38

Okay. And then tell us about your sexy zero

2:40

shame though. Like, did that start with the work

2:42

at the sex shop? Like what was kind of

2:44

just the overall arc of your

2:46

personal sexual shame? I

2:49

was not taught to hate

2:52

myself or to be scared of

2:54

sexuality. Sexual discussion was like

2:57

fine and not stigmatized in my family

2:59

growing up. My mother used to like

3:01

work the phones for Planned Parenthood in

3:03

the 60s. So I had sort of

3:05

like a hippie upbringing around

3:08

sexuality, as well as being

3:10

raised religiously in a Jewish

3:12

tradition. Jews love talking

3:14

about sex and love holding themselves in

3:16

contrast to Catholics or things like that,

3:18

like religions that play with sexual shame

3:20

that require sexual shame. I didn't know

3:22

that. Yeah, there's like this whole like,

3:25

it's like, Oh, well, like sex is

3:27

considered a misbe in the tourist like

3:29

considered a good deed, particularly if it's

3:31

considered satisfying. Like if you can make

3:33

somebody come that's a misbe. So I

3:36

was like, great, early adopter of that kind of

3:38

vibe. And so I didn't realize

3:40

that we had a culture that hated

3:43

bodies and hated sex until much later. And by

3:45

then I felt like my goose was kind of

3:47

cooked. Yeah, yeah. And then

3:49

you are such a uniquely creative human being. I

3:52

want to ask you a version of this question

3:54

I've ever asked anyone. Your artistry,

3:56

was there ever difficulty in coming out

3:58

around that and in In Sansi's

4:00

book, you can read about earlier

4:02

performance origins and some of the stuff that got

4:05

shoved on you, but overall,

4:08

you talked about it being difficult to write,

4:10

but how do you experience, if at all,

4:12

shame and your artistry? I

4:14

think there's some A-B testing. When

4:16

you're taking off your clothes for strangers, having

4:19

shame be a dominant mode is

4:22

not advantageous. There's a certain

4:24

sense of it's really not going to all come out

4:26

well. I'm baking without a recipe. Sometimes

4:28

it doesn't rise. Okay, it didn't win

4:31

this round. The audience hated me or hated this.

4:33

I'm like, got it. Okay. So

4:35

how I tweak it or do I want to keep this or

4:37

do I want to discard this? That's not shame. That's just sort

4:40

of experimentation. Yeah, yeah. Around

4:43

writing, I didn't really experience a lot

4:45

of shame. I had some frustration.

4:47

There were thoughts that felt really beautiful when

4:49

I was on the toilet or on the

4:51

subway or in the shower or wherever. And

4:54

then by the time I got to my laptop, I was like,

4:56

oh, it's just garbage that's coming out. It

4:58

wasn't because I'm bad or anything like that. It

5:00

was just this, it's difficult

5:02

to translate ephemeral experiences

5:04

into written words. Yeah.

5:07

Yeah. Although I do want to like insert my

5:09

own opinion here and say, I really love your words.

5:11

I think you are a gifted words person personally. And

5:14

I read a lot of books. I read maybe three

5:16

to six books a week. Hell

5:18

yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I appreciate

5:21

your words. Okay. Tell

5:23

us now, what is sex to

5:25

fancy? Sex

5:28

to fancy is a place to

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try shit out, let shit

5:32

go, to be really

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embodied and experience

5:38

sensation, like to tap

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into creativity and fun, tell

5:42

stories together, like to be

5:45

connected. It's so many different things. It's wonderful.

5:47

I love that answer. Same vein, but a

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little bit different. What is sexy to you?

5:52

What is sexy to me? You mean besides money? It's

5:54

so sexy. I

5:57

love getting concretely valued. That's hot.

6:00

Yeah. Living wages number one,

6:03

health care. I find generosity

6:05

to be really sexy. I

6:07

find vulnerability to be really

6:09

sexy, creativity, empathy,

6:12

whatever. I mean, I could get I could

6:14

get pedantic like body hair, but like, you

6:16

know, just no way like all of it. All

6:19

of it. Wait, you do think body hair is

6:21

sexy? Fuck yeah, I do. I love it. Like

6:23

sometimes when someone does have body hair that I like, because

6:26

I like all of it, I'm like, if you're comfy,

6:28

then I will appreciate you. I have been known

6:30

to pretend that I'm a goat and will just

6:32

like, you know, not like chew off the hair

6:34

on their arm, but just like play with it

6:36

because it's another spot to have sensation. So I'm

6:38

with you there. Is there a particular type of

6:40

body hair you find the sexiest? Well,

6:43

I'm kind of a chest hair queen.

6:45

Yeah, big fan of that. But like,

6:47

it's all good to me. Yeah. I

6:49

don't know. It just it feels really nice. And we're also it's

6:51

the wintertime. So I think I'm like, craving.

6:54

Totally. You're calling

6:56

me up. Give me your

6:58

personal blanket. Okay, tell us now, if

7:01

you can articulate it, how important is

7:03

sex in your life? Sex

7:06

is really fundamental in my life. But that

7:08

doesn't mean having sex. I've gone through

7:10

periods of time where I've had more

7:12

and had less and had years where I don't have sex at

7:14

all. And while I've been working in the

7:16

sex industry, while I've been writing about sex. So

7:19

it's something that is part of my

7:21

life and my livelihood, that is part of

7:23

my like, desire for my life and

7:25

part of my personal practice. But

7:27

it doesn't always find itself as like, a goal,

7:30

per se. It's one of the colors that

7:32

I paint with. Can

7:36

you give us a little snippet overview

7:38

of what your sex education was like?

7:40

And then maybe contrast it with what

7:42

you wish modern sex ed was like?

7:45

Absolutely. My first sex ed

7:47

came from my mother, which was really

7:49

wonderful, open, non judgmental and age appropriate

7:51

starting from when I was like two

7:53

or three. And then I had a

7:56

copy of Our Bodies Ourselves. So I

7:58

was an autodidact. I was able to

8:00

like look things up as I had

8:02

curiosity. And then when I got to

8:04

school in middle school, I had something

8:06

called awareness of growth, which was good

8:09

name. Love how big and

8:12

like my PE teacher taught

8:14

it and it was like very uncomfortable. And

8:16

they started talking about like the existence of

8:18

periods. It was like two years after I

8:20

got in mind. So too little too late.

8:22

And then in high school, I

8:24

remember my guidance counselor putting

8:27

a condom on a wooden dowel and not

8:29

being able to get it off. So she had to like put

8:31

it between her knees to like work it

8:33

out sort of through the jerk off

8:35

motion, which iconic like, thank you. How

8:40

wonderful for a class of 10th graders to

8:42

get to see and experience that it

8:45

really did leave something to be desired. But it

8:47

also was in the context of a private school.

8:49

So I wasn't beholden to like state guidelines around

8:52

abstinence being part of the curriculum, for example,

8:54

like I did get sex ed

8:56

that acknowledged, you know, the existence of

8:59

STIs and contraception and that people are

9:01

going to be sexually active. We didn't

9:03

talk about queerness or transness. And we

9:05

didn't really talk about consent. And we

9:07

certainly didn't talk about pleasure. So those

9:10

are some major topics that I feel

9:12

like probably would have been beneficial. And

9:15

then when I moved to New York and started working at

9:17

a sex toy store, the sex shop

9:19

really takes sex education seriously. And

9:21

and the onboarding process was comprehensive

9:24

sex ed, like whatever I thought I was

9:26

getting times a million. I

9:29

got so inspired reading that part, I was

9:31

like, I want to end then afterward, you

9:33

said all the terrible parts of working at

9:35

a sex shop. I was like, right, right,

9:37

don't do everything related to sex. But you're

9:39

comfortable saying what sex shop you worked out?

9:41

Or is that explicitly not included on purpose?

9:44

Oh, you know, I redacted it just in

9:46

case they were going to like sue me,

9:48

but they haven't. Okay, so it's Bayland. I

9:50

was the education coordinator there for years. And

9:54

then also, yeah, help them unionize. That's

9:56

awesome. Okay, so again,

10:00

listeners go listen to the book or read the book

10:02

with your eyeballs both versions are good they're both good

10:04

I check them out. Tell us now

10:06

what health and safety practices do you need

10:08

to feel safe with a lover? So

10:11

health and safety practices having

10:13

a conversation about our

10:16

relationship to barriers, our relationship

10:18

to risk-taking, our relationship

10:20

to body fluids, there's a

10:22

lot that's sort of negotiable as long as

10:25

we are being open and on the

10:27

same page. I'm not a hard

10:29

and fast like condoms always or

10:31

like no dental dams ever

10:33

or whatever the thing is like this. I'm

10:36

willing to do a lot of different things

10:38

as long as there is open discourse about

10:40

it and understanding that we are both engaging

10:43

in a level of risk that feels acceptable

10:45

and appropriate to us. I was talking to

10:47

a boyfriend about this and

10:49

he's like yeah when I say safety I

10:51

don't mean safety like you know

10:53

being at home in a hazmat suit or

10:55

something like that it's like this what I

10:57

mean is like safety as in what

11:00

a skydiver does that it's like

11:02

acknowledging that that I'm doing something that

11:04

involves an inherent level of risk and

11:06

taking all the precautions necessary to minimize

11:09

that while not sort of reducing

11:11

my possibilities for like joy

11:13

and openness. I really feel that

11:15

and it also sounds just listening to you

11:18

it sounds like trust-building is a part of that. Absolutely

11:21

these days if I don't trust you I'm

11:23

not gonna fuck you. There were other times

11:25

in my life where other things would have

11:27

been true but these days like I am

11:30

too busy so anybody who makes it in

11:32

has to be worth having this

11:34

conversation with. I love that okay

11:36

not to get lost in the weeds but I would

11:38

love to hear what

11:41

criteria of trust right because trust is so

11:43

big and so like what are kind of

11:45

the main components for a

11:47

sexual relationship or a personal relationship

11:49

that might include sex like what

11:52

flags green flags are you looking for? Green

11:55

flags that I'm looking for are openness

11:57

and not having a lot of shame or stigma

12:00

around talking about when sexual practices,

12:02

testing practices and partners, for example,

12:04

both in terms of being able

12:06

to deliver that information and receive

12:09

that information from somebody else, somebody

12:11

who is good at

12:14

hearing and adhering to boundaries.

12:17

So someone who's not going to try to push

12:19

the issue if there's something that is

12:21

a non-negotiable for me or for somebody else and

12:23

a sense of fun

12:25

and possibility within the sort

12:28

of guidelines that are created. So the idea

12:30

that these are agreements that are keeping us

12:32

as safe as possible that doesn't reduce our

12:35

ability to have fun with each other. And

12:37

so if it's treated like, what

12:39

a chore, then that means to me that

12:41

the person is not really worth fucking. Yeah,

12:44

it's like a disqualifier. Like, oh, okay, no

12:46

thanks. Can you give us just

12:48

a little snippet of like what our health and safety

12:50

conversations like for you? Are you usually the initiator? Are

12:52

there any like phrases or words that you find very

12:54

helpful? You don't have to take us through the full

12:57

thing, but just like any key

12:59

moments there? Oh, yeah, it

13:02

kind of brought up my tongue these days. And

13:04

I think that has a lot to do with

13:06

so many years working in sex education. But I'll

13:09

volunteer the information first that like, I think a

13:11

lot of people feel put

13:13

on the spot if it's like, Hey, when were you

13:15

last tested? Yeah, in an interrogation kind of context.

13:20

So just say like, okay, so it's

13:22

been, you know, whatever, like I last

13:24

got tested this month. And

13:27

my results were this, it's like,

13:29

oh, I tested positive for HPV, like

13:31

10 years ago and cleared it nine

13:33

years ago. And that's been my sexual

13:35

health history or whatever. I want to

13:37

use condoms if we're doing penetration or

13:39

using any toys. And I want

13:41

to put down a puppy pad or whatever, whatever

13:43

the thing is. And like, how do you feel

13:45

about that? Does that work for you? It doesn't

13:47

really need to be particularly complicated. Beautiful.

13:50

I love that. And even just hearing the example

13:52

in your voice and your demeanor, I think

13:54

is so helpful personally. So

13:57

before we dive into all

13:59

of your details, Broadly speaking, how

14:01

are you making the world a sexier, more loving

14:03

place? These

14:05

days I'm not so sure. I mean, I... I'll

14:08

be your book. I'm going to answer for you your

14:10

book. That's easy. It's doing the work for you, but

14:13

it's really good. Yeah,

14:16

it's been really special to have something

14:18

that is concrete, that exists its

14:21

reaches much farther than, for

14:23

example, a room full of

14:25

people that I could meet on stage. We all would have to

14:27

be in the same geographic location

14:29

in the same time in order for

14:31

the message to work. But in this

14:34

case, there's a library in Skokie where

14:36

my book is checked out, and I'm thinking about

14:38

that person in Skokie. So being

14:41

able to write down and record my

14:43

experiences in the sexual underground and

14:45

in nightlife spaces, and in spaces

14:47

that are marginal, approximate to the

14:49

sex industry or within the sex

14:52

industry, and to do so in

14:54

a way that feels as

14:57

emotionally complex and complete as I can do,

14:59

as I have experienced it. It feels like

15:01

the kind of contribution that I want

15:03

to make to the sex world. I am not

15:05

interested in the sort of

15:07

flattened narratives around it

15:09

is purely empowering and purely

15:12

always a good time to be, you

15:14

know, a sexy worker. Neither

15:17

is it. All terrible exploitation,

15:20

like a nightmare. But that, like, reality

15:23

so often exists in between, but we don't have

15:25

that attitude towards nuance

15:27

when people are talking about sexuality. There's

15:29

a desire to categorize it into a

15:31

sort of black and white mode. I

15:34

think that makes things sexier, allowing things to

15:36

exist in their complication and nuance. I

15:40

think you really nailed a lot of

15:42

nuance because I had such... So

15:45

I've been, like, researching sex anecdotally

15:47

through books, through people, for five

15:50

years, like, straight. I was doing

15:52

a mixture of listening to and reading with eyeballs your

15:54

book, and there was a part where

15:56

you talked about sex workers and gave kind of like

15:58

an example. I can't even remember. what the parallel was

16:00

but you were just like they're they're not going to

16:02

be harming children like you really every time there

16:04

was like a point the way that you unpacked

16:06

it for people i thought was so clear

16:09

and so both sides and then through

16:11

your own experiences i saw a person

16:14

who was able to like have in

16:16

some cases like really difficult

16:18

but also really beautiful experiences and i

16:20

loved that it was never just like

16:23

the story of self-judgment at any moment it was like there

16:25

was space for all of it and i do think that

16:28

that way of sharing is a great example to

16:30

make the world sexier and more loving both

16:33

relationally and towards yourself too right like

16:35

it was it's yeah so okay so

16:37

i really want to direct listeners

16:39

to your professional origin story i think is

16:41

very clearly outlined in the book i love

16:43

the way that you oh but you know

16:45

what i would like to know how did

16:47

you decide what order to put the chapters

16:50

in because it's not chronological

16:52

no it's not i wanted the

16:55

book to take readers from

16:58

one sort of state of being to another like

17:00

i knew the feeling that i wanted at the

17:02

beginning of the book and at the end because

17:04

it's a similar feeling that i

17:06

try to offer in my strip tease performances

17:08

oh yeah yeah okay i thought that's great

17:10

but like

17:13

people think they're coming for this thing

17:15

that is entertaining and

17:17

tawdry and sexy and glamorous

17:20

and i want them to get that like that's important to

17:22

me all of that is true but what

17:24

i also want to bring people to

17:26

is this place of emotional catharsis and

17:29

this use of

17:32

nudity in my case

17:34

as a metaphor for other kinds of

17:36

discovery or transformation and

17:38

so that arc really guided

17:40

the order of the essays so

17:42

we started off a little bit lighter and a little

17:45

bit talking more about showbiz over time things deep in

17:47

and then by the time i get back to strip

17:49

tease the the meaning of the

17:51

strip tease has really completely transformed and

17:53

is intended to be like very sort

17:56

of deeply emotional and then i also

17:58

have my editor to thank for that She's

18:00

amazing. And so she was really good at I mean,

18:02

there were many essays that I wrote for the book

18:04

that are not in the book And

18:07

there are moments where she was like, I feel

18:09

like this needs another like there's another 10

18:11

pages here that you need to write for us

18:13

to get to this next speech. Oh,

18:16

I love that Yeah, she's fantastic. So I

18:18

had some really really good help. But yeah, it's intended

18:20

to be a long-form strip to use of source

18:22

Yeah Because I think I emailed you very excited

18:24

a third of the way in and then I got

18:26

to chapter 6 and I was like This

18:29

is a storyteller like you like, you know And I

18:31

and then I discovered more just artistic things that we

18:33

had in common with film school and all of that

18:35

And I was like damn and yeah really

18:38

beautifully done But I'm wondering if maybe there are

18:40

things that didn't make it into the book from

18:42

your own Personal formative years

18:44

that might feel relevant, you know, like what

18:47

shaped you into the sexual being

18:49

you are maybe starting from childhood Yeah,

18:53

I had written about my family like there was

18:55

a whole essay about them and I

18:58

felt precious about it. I felt

19:00

really Protective of them

19:02

and also of having my family appear

19:04

in the same book alongside some

19:08

of my sort of more notable sexual

19:10

exploits like thinking about how that Melange

19:13

would sit and my editor was like you're

19:15

being too protective of them Like it's not

19:17

an interesting story if you're just

19:19

gonna be nice. Yeah. Yeah, so

19:21

that was that was removed But like obviously

19:24

my family of origin had a massive influence

19:26

on who I am and what my values

19:28

are there was an essay about working out

19:31

and sort of experiencing my

19:33

body through Weightlifting how

19:35

that also sort of transformed body

19:37

image stuff Which you know

19:39

is great context if someone's really interested in me

19:41

in my life But doesn't move people

19:44

through the narrative that we were constructing through the

19:46

essays I didn't really write a lot

19:48

about my childhood Which is not to say

19:50

that I don't think about my childhood or that it hasn't been Influential.

19:53

I just was like I

19:55

don't want to write about my childhood in my come

19:57

book, you know, that's fair Totally

20:00

fair. I do always ask people about

20:02

formative experiences, you know, first of touching

20:05

themselves or playing with partners in consensual,

20:07

you know, choice driven ways. Is there

20:09

anything about that kind of like era

20:12

of your life that feels like relevant

20:14

to fancy sex stories? Absolutely.

20:16

I taught my entire bunk

20:19

of fellow campers at

20:21

Jewish girls overnight camp how

20:23

to masturbate. They

20:25

thought you had to have a dick to

20:27

masturbate. And I had just figured it out

20:29

that summer. So I was like, there's no

20:31

way I'm going to like, leave this knowledge

20:33

on the table. Oh my God. So I

20:36

drew a diagram of a vulva and I

20:38

explained the clip and I talked about it.

20:40

And the next morning, one of my fellow

20:42

campers was like, hey, thanks. Obviously

20:46

word got out because it was like the exciting

20:49

thing that I had like taught everybody how to

20:51

masturbate. I thought my counselor was going to get

20:53

me in trouble or anything, but she was just

20:55

so lovely and open and excited about it. And

20:57

so then we created a big vulva made out

20:59

of masking tape and we put it on her

21:02

door. So she was on board. It

21:04

was really nice. That's amazing. Well, first of all,

21:06

I wish I had gone to camp with you.

21:08

And second of all, like one of

21:10

my like big life dreams, who knows if we'll

21:12

get there, is to create some sort of like

21:14

sex camp, you know, for adults. And

21:17

then maybe there's like the creative oriented

21:19

age appropriate part that is family oriented

21:21

over there, you know, because I

21:23

meet so many people through the course of this

21:25

work who like do want, you

21:27

know, more hands on tutorials, maybe not just

21:30

a big paper vulva, but that's so cool.

21:32

Anything else from formative experiences that like

21:34

taught you about your own body or

21:36

just other people that feels fun to

21:38

share? I remember being

21:40

frantically called upon to help

21:44

my friend in high school give

21:47

a hand job for the first time that like

21:49

she'd met somebody and was like really excited

21:51

about but had no idea what

21:53

to do with the penis when she saw one. So

21:55

like she and I each had

21:58

like bottles of lotion. and

22:00

sort of used the bottles as sort of

22:02

mock penises. And

22:04

so I was like guiding her on some techniques.

22:07

And like, who was I? I had

22:09

not ever given a hand job when I was talking

22:11

about this. I don't really know where I was getting

22:13

my information from. But it was like, I was already

22:15

doing all of this. So then when I started doing

22:17

like hand job and blow job workshops at Beybland, I

22:19

was like, oh yeah. Like finally I'm

22:21

getting paid for this thing that I've been

22:23

giving away for free for years. That's

22:26

amazing. How did you learn? What

22:29

was your personal learning method? Just

22:31

being a pervert, I think. I watched a

22:33

lot of porn. And I was really interested

22:35

in educational porn. Like

22:38

a lot of the sort of old school,

22:40

like Nina Hartley, like how to kind of

22:42

porn. That was really meaningful to me, like

22:44

as a much younger person. And so between

22:46

that and books like Our Bodies, Ourselves, where

22:48

there were diagrams and

22:51

explanations, I kind of just like was

22:53

able to put two and two together and I could talk about like sensitive

22:56

parts of the anatomy and like, yeah, different

22:58

techniques. Damn. Who knows what

23:00

I was doing? I mean, I don't know if it was good. It may not have, you

23:02

may not have wanted like the. Who

23:05

knows, right? But like, I

23:07

only read Nina Hartley's book a

23:10

year and a half ago and I still have

23:12

like a huge list of edu porn

23:14

that I'm researching. Cause like my passion is now

23:16

like, how do I create more edu-ratic content but

23:18

also cross off my bucket list at the same

23:20

time? Who will do this task with me? How

23:23

do I make sure that what I put

23:25

on camera is, with the background as a

23:27

filmmaker, like I want to do the

23:30

artistry of communicating the emotional

23:32

arc of what I'm experiencing and

23:35

then as a sex nerd, I wanna kind

23:37

of like make sure that the informational bits are

23:39

there. Cause I also connect with people through information.

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25:39

podcast. What is it like teaching

25:41

a blowjob workshop? Like I would just, and how

25:43

many times have you done it and are you bored

25:45

yet? And like what do you, what's it been

25:47

like to share some stories? I have

25:50

taught several hundred blowjob workshops. I've lost

25:52

count. I don't know. Because

25:54

I was the education coordinator and so I would

25:56

run the workshops. So it

25:58

was sort of defaulted to me. to

26:01

teach when there wasn't a teacher available or

26:03

when I wanted to pick up some extra

26:05

cash. And in the sex

26:07

shop what it looked like was setting

26:10

up 60 fold out chairs in

26:12

the retail space after hours. I would

26:14

have like half an hour to turn

26:16

the store over and move all the islands and all

26:18

that kind of stuff. And then

26:20

I would be standing on a concrete

26:22

slab with a co-teacher and usually the

26:25

first few years one of us had a

26:27

strap on with a dildo on it and

26:29

the other one would be on the slab

26:31

on their knees sucking the

26:33

dick of their co-teacher and talking

26:36

through the different techniques and then all of

26:38

the attendees would be practicing

26:40

the same techniques using a

26:42

banana and a condom. So I would have

26:44

to go to the nearby bodega and buy

26:46

them out of bananas once a week. Oh

26:48

my god that's hilarious. I

26:52

did not buy bananas for years after

26:54

working at that store. Like it grossed

26:56

me out and also like my

26:58

freezer was full of frozen bananas. I made

27:01

banana bread constantly. Yeah I bet. Whatever

27:04

had been lightly used you know. Oh

27:06

that is hilarious. But yeah it

27:09

was weird because sucking

27:11

a strap on cock is

27:13

sex. That's like

27:16

for many people that is like the sex that they have. So

27:19

it took a while for

27:21

us as teachers to

27:23

talk about that fully. That

27:25

we were like no no it's okay

27:27

don't worry. And like most of our

27:30

customers are straight people and most of

27:32

the employees are queer people. It's like

27:34

a bunch of queer people assuring the straight people that what

27:36

we're doing is not sex. Very professional.

27:38

Right exactly. And it's like

27:41

oh that's a lot. And

27:43

so we sort of like transferred over to

27:45

then like handheld dildos which felt a little

27:48

more abstracted and people got

27:50

a lot more comfortable about that. But

27:52

yeah it was hard to teach blowjob

27:54

workshops when. Like I taught a blowjob

27:56

workshop right after I had a

27:58

breakup with an ex I loved very much. and

28:00

I was crying and throwing

28:02

up. And so I was like, Oh my god,

28:04

the idea that I'm gonna put a dildo in

28:06

my mouth, like I'm gonna puke in front of

28:08

all of these people, I'm gonna be like, well,

28:10

just just so easy and then like, throw up

28:12

from grief and anxiety in front of my God.

28:15

So fortunately, I like did some breathing techniques. But

28:17

I had my coworker, you know,

28:19

in the backstage area being like, if you

28:21

throw up, you throw up, you know, try to like assure

28:23

me that it was okay. Yeah. And one time we

28:25

had an angry woman who ate nine

28:28

bananas, like out of rage, like

28:30

destroy the bananas. Yes.

28:33

I don't know what her whole

28:35

vibe was that day, but she like

28:38

came in with a bad attitude. She

28:40

sat down was not participating. Then she

28:42

put the condom on the banana and

28:44

started chewing it like with teeth so

28:47

that we could see it, you know,

28:49

like, I hate this banana, you know,

28:51

and then pulling bananas off of nearby

28:53

chairs, and just eating them.

28:56

It was a lot. And then she went to the

28:58

bathroom, stole a box of tampons,

29:01

took one of the display vibrators.

29:04

And we give out feedback forms at the

29:06

end of the workshop. And she was like,

29:08

have any of you lesbians ever actually had

29:11

sex with a man? You should try it.

29:13

Damn. She was really having a

29:15

day. I kept that evaluation form. I was like,

29:17

this is seriously, that's like art,

29:20

almost like, unconsensual performance

29:22

art that she was like, look at me, look at

29:24

me do this thing. I mean, that's, it

29:27

sounds like you had a lot of much

29:29

more difficult experiences than I have

29:32

ever had in five years of talking

29:34

about my own sex life publicly, or even in

29:36

the various forms of sex work that I've been exploring

29:38

over the past three years. How

29:40

did you take care of yourself? It sounds like

29:42

you had supportive co workers, but like, what did

29:44

you do to sort of like, regenerate

29:47

or do whatever you needed to do after a

29:49

lot of the very fucking assholes you dealt with?

29:52

That was really hard. Retail

29:54

work, in general, it puts

29:56

you in the path of a lot

29:59

of people going, through a lot of stuff and there's not

30:01

a ton of protection. And because you

30:03

are in the service industry, you are not

30:05

seen as powerful or treated in a

30:07

way that is like acknowledging of

30:10

your humanity. So yeah, my

30:12

coworkers really were the saving grace.

30:15

We kept each other safe. We

30:17

would find non carceral solutions, like

30:19

not calling the police, but locking the

30:21

store and ordering people out sometimes like

30:23

dragging people out physically if that needed

30:25

to happen. New York

30:28

City, Lower East Side. But then I

30:30

also was in therapy still am great.

30:33

I highly recommend always me too. Yes.

30:35

You know, and it was

30:37

part time. So I was also filling my days with

30:39

other things. I knew I couldn't take on

30:42

a full time schedule of just working on the Salesforce

30:44

and teaching workshops that that was going to grind

30:46

me down. So performing really did

30:49

end up becoming like much

30:51

more of a job around that time, because

30:53

I needed something where I had more autonomy and

30:55

more of a sense of personal power. Yeah.

30:58

On the note of performing, it was

31:00

very surprising to me when I started

31:03

sharing unclothed pictures of myself publicly that when

31:05

I had, you know, this is my hair grown back

31:07

one year and two months, I had a shaved head

31:09

for six years. And so at the beginning, for me,

31:11

it was like, what is this

31:13

container? Do I have a relationship with it?

31:16

If I don't have hair, because that's always

31:18

what I got complimented for, like, Am I am

31:20

I sexy to me? What does it mean? And

31:22

I was shocked to months,

31:25

years in, discover that many

31:28

people out there do equate

31:30

simple nudity with sex. And

31:33

me being naked with their

31:35

permission to have sex with

31:37

me in any way, shape or form

31:39

they want, regardless of where they are. I would

31:42

love to hear your understanding

31:45

and your experience specifically around

31:47

like, people's expectations about

31:49

sex as it relates to

31:51

burlesque and performance where people

31:54

are unclothing themselves. So

31:56

I've been solicited a number of times it shows

31:59

like with an expectation. that I

32:01

am performing as a way to

32:04

sort of like demonstrate what the

32:06

goods are that are available. So like I

32:08

will have people like trying to you know

32:10

like to hire me as a full service

32:12

worker or something like that after the show.

32:14

I hope they at least offered good budgets.

32:16

I think most of them cannot afford me.

32:18

But that in and of itself is not

32:20

like I don't think that's wrong

32:22

per se and that that had been a

32:25

lot of the like if

32:27

we were in the 40s or 50s a lot of

32:29

the burlesque performers at the time would use their stage

32:31

performance in the same way that like a stripper at

32:33

a club is like doing a stage performance to sell

32:35

a private dance. So I don't

32:38

hate that. I do think the idea that

32:40

if you are in any way sexually

32:42

liberated, if you are sexually expressive, if

32:45

you are like interested in

32:47

your own body or if

32:50

you are interested in displaying

32:52

your body in certain ways, that that is open

32:55

season on you or like that people can

32:57

then just like project their desires or you

32:59

know be gross

33:01

or intrusive or that they have permission

33:03

to access other parts of you. I

33:05

find that to be really repugnant. It

33:07

feels like this is one of

33:09

those things that I write about in the

33:11

book that like depending on my like sleep

33:13

levels and hydration and like where my compassion

33:16

was at, I could sometimes understand that it's

33:18

like we really don't have like

33:20

media literacy almost around that kind of stuff. So

33:22

it's like people are really doing the best with

33:24

what they have and what they have is bullshit.

33:26

So I have compassion for that. But then when

33:29

it is something that threatens my safety or that's

33:31

like a boundary pushing thing on a bad day

33:33

or something like that, I will just sort of

33:35

shut down and do like a hard correction. For

33:37

sure, for sure. Well, and I think that's such

33:39

a good point because we live in a culture

33:42

that seems to thrive in lack of clarity.

33:44

Like what I've learned from interviewing

33:46

hundreds of people about their sex lives is

33:48

that like my desire

33:50

for clarity doesn't match most people.

33:53

Like I'm like, but what do you mean? Those

33:55

words are unclear to me. And so I would

33:57

like you to define this one and this one

33:59

and this one. And I've only just like

34:01

in the last year and a half, like

34:03

through sex work, through being like, why am

34:05

I not very good at selling this stuff when

34:07

clearly so many people think I'm sexy? There's

34:09

some sort of like nuance there, right? And

34:11

so it's like, yes, there

34:13

could be the invitation by the being

34:16

naked, but also like, there are no

34:18

actual norms. And we also

34:20

do not have the conversational tools, which brings

34:22

me to my next question for you. And

34:25

we can circle back to Perlesk as needed. But

34:27

you are good at reading

34:30

people's kinks. You are good at

34:32

cold reading people's kinks on the

34:34

fly. And I imagine we're gonna hear

34:36

a little bit about phone sex, but also like, when

34:38

did you realize this? How

34:40

the fuck do you do it? If

34:43

people have like, maybe I don't know, neurodivergent

34:45

brains that need a lot of literal stuff,

34:47

do you have any advice for them? Well,

34:49

so okay, so I'm going to start this off

34:51

with like, maybe the least sexy fact about me,

34:54

which is that the most impactful

34:56

thing I did in college was take

34:58

improv class, the skills that

35:00

come from improv class around

35:02

listening around, watching for

35:05

cues around co creating things on

35:07

the fly, making agreements,

35:09

giving gifts, asking good questions, adding

35:11

information that all of that was

35:14

something that I practiced for,

35:16

I mean, we were very hardcore, the improv

35:18

troupe I was in. So we would practice

35:20

for like, three times a week,

35:22

like two to three hours at a time. And

35:25

that was like a lot of intense team

35:27

make believe. And so that

35:30

skill helped me a lot when I

35:32

was in retail trying to cold

35:34

read and mind read with customers who didn't

35:36

have language around desire, who didn't have language

35:39

around what toys they were looking for, who

35:41

weren't sure what the fit was. And so

35:43

I ended up doing a lot of

35:45

what I think of as like being a sexy

35:47

optometrist, that it's like, okay, do

35:49

you mean more like A or more like B? You

35:52

know, like, okay, so does this vibrator look like what

35:54

you're looking for? This is one, it's like, okay, so

35:56

you don't want a vibrator. Okay, so what you may

35:58

want is a dildo instead. So here's some of

36:00

our dildos? Is there one that you feel

36:02

is drawn to? Let's like pick it up and squeeze it.

36:04

It's like, Oh, does that feel too squishy? Okay. So you

36:06

may want a firmer, you know, just sort of like feeling

36:08

my way through that it's not like, I

36:10

can't intuit, I can't mind read for

36:13

people, but I can sort of clear

36:15

the pathway and use language to translate

36:17

their experience. And it's like, okay, I've seen

36:20

that you're looking at this and that you haven't, like,

36:22

as we've been talking, you've still been sort of like

36:24

holding this toy. Like, is there something that you feel

36:26

particularly drawn to, you know, just sort of

36:28

having those questions that help steer people towards

36:31

what they might need. And then when I

36:33

got on the phone, it was

36:36

sort of like the varsity level

36:38

of that, because I'm talking to people

36:40

that I couldn't see. The only

36:42

thing we have are the words that we're using

36:44

with each other. But then finding people who still

36:47

don't have language for it. Yes. I

36:50

thought that sex work was going to be like, finally, I can

36:52

show up and do this thing. And I'll find people to

36:55

play with because I'm so good at playing. I just

36:57

need a clear frame and the world is not full

36:59

of clear frames. And sex work is not

37:02

full of clear frames. It's the

37:04

opposite. It's the opposite. Right. And I

37:06

remember there being this like phone call I had

37:08

where a guy was like, Oh,

37:10

you know, my dick is six

37:12

inches. Do you think that's big

37:15

or small? I

37:19

think it is slightly above the statistical average, but

37:21

that's not what somebody wants to hear. But it's

37:23

like, am I supposed to be like, you have

37:25

the biggest fucking dick ever is going to strip

37:27

me out and fill me up? Or am I

37:29

like, that's a tiny little pencil dick and like,

37:31

it's worth it. And you get I was like,

37:33

I don't know. Yeah. So

37:36

I remember that was like, I was at a crossroads. I

37:38

just like made a 5050 guess at

37:40

that point. I tried to

37:42

look at his like username, see if

37:45

there was like a clue or something like that. And then at

37:47

the end of the day, I was like, it just sounds like

37:49

a small penis guy. I don't know. There was something in his

37:51

voice. I was like, this is a lowercase place. Like I'm gonna

37:55

Imagine genius. I Love this series

37:57

of answers too, because it does.

38:00

Give me I tell myself a lot of unhelpful stories

38:02

about basically like of hopeless and I know I've read

38:04

the books in I'm like I'm supposed to catch up

38:06

to other people socially when I'm around sisters of that

38:08

decade and a half plus. To go but like. Hearing

38:12

that there are concrete ways to check

38:14

in and what I'm also noticing in

38:16

these stories is that there is. A

38:19

mixture of compassion with like allowing privacy

38:21

for these people whereas sometimes I can

38:23

be like but what do you mean

38:25

you know, like I'll get to direct

38:27

or so. It's sort of like allowing

38:29

them and learning about like privacy and

38:31

secrecy spaces. That shared secrecy and named can

38:33

dance. And and so that's what I hear coming

38:36

through in your stories and discovery of people. Absolutely

38:38

thank you. I've never heard that

38:40

specifically articulated, but that's right, and

38:42

that was actually something that we

38:44

received specific training on. In. The

38:47

retail space because it's like for

38:49

example, we had. Stop. On

38:51

harnesses, some of which had one ring.

38:53

So. I just for Dell Dell And so that had to

38:56

ring. With. The understanding that like

38:58

one opening would be for adult own when opening

39:00

would be for a flush deck. silica from the

39:02

wanted to gdp but so a couple would come

39:04

in and we couldn't lead. Their. Gender

39:06

as and we were going to assign who

39:08

was doing what or ledger what are you

39:10

part somebody had and so we were really

39:13

keeping it focused on than the product rather

39:15

than these people so I would never ask

39:17

a which one of you can be wearing

39:19

The shots that with were like of the

39:21

for people who are looking for like d

39:23

p that they could. You. Know put

39:25

a victory like these are our models

39:27

And for people who are looking for

39:29

sort of a single deck experience like

39:31

here you know And to just let

39:33

them say only that much and not

39:35

hustings is more of their life for

39:37

of their biography. Than if

39:39

necessary. Yeah. Plus is so beautiful

39:41

and just as a person who

39:43

has accidentally exploded. Many. Many

39:46

many many many potential partners who clearly

39:48

wanted to have sex with me until

39:50

I attempted to get clear like I'm

39:52

like ah I see and learning okay

39:55

and I'm not know I would love

39:57

to hear about. Robot role

39:59

play. Have you discovered it? Identify kind of

40:01

as a human robot like I'm like I'm

40:03

just a central but uses how to program

40:06

me and I'll be perfect I promise. Like

40:08

I mean look at as a service submissive.

40:10

I work in top space a lot because

40:12

I'm in that sub be and that service

40:14

oriented and I and so curious about what

40:16

will that will play means to you, what

40:18

you love about it. Maybe what you haven't

40:20

explored are I don't tell me I don't

40:22

know what I don't know. so you tell

40:25

us. So when I started doing phone sex

40:27

work my. Deepest. Desire was

40:29

to find myself embedded with a

40:31

nice fetish community because. I

40:33

was like I want something interesting like I've been

40:35

around the block. I would like to will learn

40:37

something about a fetish that I don't know very

40:39

much about. I'd like to have consistent plan. And

40:42

willing to go really deep. I'd like to. Have.

40:45

More sort of emotional investment, more repeat

40:47

customers longer cause, more emotional labor whatever

40:49

rather than sort of shorter sort of

40:52

passing fancy com And so my first

40:54

week I got a message from a

40:56

member of the robot that a community

40:59

for like set me some assets, friends

41:01

and was like. Hey. Seem.

41:04

Like. I like the way you write a like, so

41:06

you present yourself like missing creative, would you be

41:08

willing to do a robot role play with? Fuck.

41:11

Yeah, Like Tommy do I pass the turing

41:13

test? Like what's? Era

41:15

Robot. I was so excited

41:17

about that something. I've never

41:19

waited in this before and

41:21

so he was. So lovely.

41:23

Inclines like. Fetishists. Like

41:25

talking about their fetish on people, not

41:27

everybody and so he was really willing

41:29

to share with me like resources and

41:31

show me robot porn that he likes

41:34

to end. I was like reading their

41:36

message boards and things like that and

41:38

teaching notes and had a little interest

41:40

like I wanted of what I'm going.

41:42

Deep. On it but of course. Just.

41:45

Robots Like Robots. Are

41:47

not a monolith. And so

41:50

they would. He essence of the robot

41:52

fetishists who wanted a robot that was

41:54

malfunctioning Or the robot fetishist. He wanted

41:56

a robot that was really subservient. To

41:59

serve nineteen fifties. Like robot. Or.

42:01

People who wanted like a really strong

42:03

robot acted like crush them at a

42:06

moment's notice your robot that could be

42:08

disassembled or robots that were begging to

42:10

be made human in some cases I

42:12

think like particularly with people who were

42:15

narrow, diverse. Having robot fetishes that

42:17

did. Been and seems to me. To.

42:19

Be related at all. A people who just wanted me to

42:21

sort of. Read. From a technical manual

42:23

or like run diagnostics on my software and

42:25

for that to be like a really erotic

42:28

experience for them And that was. Wonderful!

42:32

Wow Has it open virtual? or

42:35

have you ever like don't him

42:37

in person Robots Exploration. It's

42:39

all been virtual and. Queuing.

42:42

It virtually has permitted me to sort

42:44

of use my. Some. School

42:46

skill to do like audio and some

42:48

video editing so that people are really

42:50

getting a lot more of what they

42:52

want. Like it. I could do something

42:54

for Flake. Costuming: Or

42:56

whatever. but that being able to do digital

42:58

manipulation us closer to the sort of real

43:01

thing that people are. An Ironing

43:03

Bryant is even a fantasy role play scenario.

43:05

It's like they're going to feel your flesh

43:07

and beating heart but make oh that's so

43:09

hot Robot Play is on my bucket list

43:12

but I haven't gone that like a have

43:14

to all of a bucket list even without

43:16

all the sometimes I have done some like

43:18

statue sucking stuff because I let you know

43:20

bring me to lie for like sales deficit

43:22

is what I'm really interested in but I

43:25

love I love that. What about. None.

43:27

And religious play. Do you find interesting and

43:29

is in? can have the same room or isn't

43:32

something you might bring into like real life with

43:34

costumes. A yeah that worked

43:36

were like veering closer into my sort of

43:38

real world inches and practices. I think I

43:40

have grown up. In. A

43:43

religious minority under a sort

43:45

of like Christian Ahead or

43:47

a patriarchal had gemini. I.

43:50

Think it's. Fine. Shoe

43:52

reappropriation. And fuck with. Iconography:

43:55

Imagery like things that are

43:57

not mine. That. Belong to a.

44:00

Prominent. People. That it's

44:02

sort of like a reverse cultural appropriation.

44:04

Almonds within like it was like, yeah,

44:06

I'm like, whatever. Like you shoved all

44:08

of these images down my throat. So.

44:10

Now I'm honestly don't have them as. You

44:14

said as he sees. Exactly

44:17

said. Like a plane with shame, playing

44:19

with secret, playing with like punishment and

44:21

forgiveness and yet like the whole thing

44:23

is so fucking kinky like. Forcing.

44:26

Other people actually eat and drink things

44:28

and see on the it on their

44:30

knees. Yeah, I'm I'm so like one

44:32

of my sort of synthetic obsessions has

44:34

to look at any sort of foreclosures

44:36

like if there were churches that were

44:38

liquidating because I was like. I

44:40

would really like to get a confession.

44:43

Do like put that unbiased dude. I

44:45

have been noodling on what does a

44:47

traveling six stories concessional that I can

44:49

take to different sex shops and easily

44:51

set up look like that? You know

44:53

in the podcast has never been about

44:55

concessions. it's been about shame smashing. But

44:57

I'm like oh, but people like it

44:59

better if it's concessions. Oh okay, so

45:01

they the, how how could that be

45:03

fun And how can it make them

45:05

so cozy and cease and private and

45:07

new able to share and by fold?

45:10

Oh my. Gosh, you would have one in your house.

45:12

I mean I would like to. I don't have a son

45:14

a real estate. I have a guest room. Felt like. He.

45:16

Just puts us without us at some

45:19

point. Oh that's amazing. Family

45:22

comes to visit your like Isis this

45:24

part of an actor you know rehearsal

45:27

say. Resume

45:29

goes In my tiny little room has.

45:31

Prob thought of that the have to worry about. yeah. That

45:35

would you want do they could dress up

45:37

as a known or do that for independent

45:40

like would be any near Berlin for former

45:42

so like maybe this is a good segue

45:44

to like you've done just like a fucking

45:46

array of things. What about religious play in.

45:48

Your own sex life would be most. Juicy

45:50

to you is it included a costume and

45:52

a willing partner to late improv play and

45:55

suck with. With. My with

45:57

my ex about like doing none.

46:00

I'm. Like Altar Boy kind of stuff. Ah, and

46:02

and we didn't get a duet like the I'm

46:04

It but it's still on my bucket list. But

46:07

I was like I don't want like a lovely

46:09

tax man's i Love sex scene and I was

46:11

like i don't want that. I why it. Sort.

46:14

Of like should issue know like I

46:16

want it. She sort of like. Wolves,

46:18

whatever the Garmin is made out of like I

46:21

want the for habit because as you say something,

46:23

That. So dirty about the idea of like. Yeah.

46:26

A nun's habit that you sort of lift up

46:28

in. There's nothing underneath to me that did something

46:30

that like a sort of specifically like. Fetishized.

46:34

Costume. Without you And I know I mean

46:36

that pecker. I. Fucking love that. know?

46:38

I think that's also why you are such

46:40

a beautiful specific artist right? Like the amount

46:42

of star and storytelling that seems to go

46:44

into every piece of thing, the to do

46:47

is like truly next level and like I

46:49

can imagine. They're doing difficult part if you live

46:51

in that kind of brain I'm gonna have my own

46:53

version of it, but you know the artist really comes

46:55

out the other side of it. Very beautiful. I.

46:58

Would love to hear about Power Play and

47:00

how it's yummy for you at this moment

47:02

in your life. If people go, read your

47:05

book, they can read a little bit about

47:07

your arc with it. but I would love

47:09

to hear like why do those cooks how

47:11

do those subs with to see about powerful.

47:14

Moolah I think is a

47:16

real negotiation. With.

47:19

My relationship to the patriarchy that comes out

47:21

in the sex that I have. We

47:23

live in a culture that presumes male

47:25

dominance by mean the first other prisons

47:27

heterosexuality, but that also presumes male dominance

47:29

and female submission. And for those to

47:32

be like the options, the by Harry

47:34

and I accepted that and I assumed

47:36

that I was submissive when I was

47:38

younger and that there was something really

47:40

satisfying about being able to accommodate somebody

47:43

else like if somebody else pleasure through.

47:45

Becoming. What it was that they wanted me to be. And.

47:48

Said something that I can also do you as

47:51

a dominant like being a service top or something

47:53

like that they have yet. But. I found

47:55

him as compelling was like genuine.

47:58

Suffering. and psychological the Which

48:01

also goes with nuns, if you

48:03

know about Mother Teresa. So into

48:06

suffering. Oh, interesting. Oh, same war.

48:08

You know, banking and blogging

48:11

and all of that kind of stuff like

48:13

impact play or pain play was like, okay,

48:15

I find that to be like decently interesting

48:17

and reasonably hot. But for me, the thing

48:19

that is the most compelling is like, if

48:21

I can really get in a person's head

48:23

and like, fuck their shit up once again,

48:25

consensually, but in a way that sucks, like

48:27

in a way that somebody like they don't

48:29

enjoy it, they have to enjoy their lack

48:32

of enjoyment. And so I think that's sort

48:34

of like why cucks come in to my

48:36

world so frequently. Because

48:39

what's being played with is a lot

48:41

of denial, that there's a lot that's dangled

48:43

in front of them that they don't get to have or

48:45

they don't get to experience. And that that

48:47

denial is like what gets eroticized, as

48:49

well as the sort of imbalance of

48:51

power, like the idea of their

48:54

dominant being able to do whatever and fuck whomever,

48:56

and have this like freedom of movement and then

48:58

to sort of be stuck,

49:01

like happily stuck, like understanding

49:03

that their role and their position in life

49:05

is to be subordinate, that there's something about

49:07

that it's really enlivening living in a body

49:10

that is disempowered and like discriminated against from

49:12

a gender standpoint, like to be able to

49:14

put that on and also to give the

49:16

other person relief, like to give a man

49:18

relief about his position in the patriarchy. Like

49:21

sure, why not? If that's like a side

49:23

effect, then enjoy it. Wow,

49:26

okay, there's so much here that I like,

49:29

okay, we're not going to get lost in all of

49:31

the weeds, but in your physical body, do you

49:34

ever feel at odds with your own

49:36

desire to fuck with cooks?

49:39

I mean, you don't fuck them, right? I

49:41

do not fuck them. Yes, it depends.

49:44

When I have like emotional

49:46

closeness and like fond

49:48

feelings and a crush on the person who is

49:50

the cook, there is this sort of

49:52

like self denial that ends up happening. Then I'm like, yeah,

49:54

you don't get to fuck me. And I'm like, I don't

49:57

get to fuck you. You know what I mean? I

49:59

would really. like that. I think it would

50:01

be nice. And there are some relationships where

50:03

that's also possible, like where we can have

50:05

sex outside of the role. But generally speaking,

50:07

I am quite a patient person, and

50:10

I'm willing to have and I have had

50:12

long term sexual relationships with people where there

50:14

hasn't been any penetrative sex.

50:17

There's a lot that counts and

50:19

that is interesting and sexy and juicy

50:21

about my relationship with them that isn't

50:23

necessarily geared toward that. Are

50:25

there physical sensations outside of penetrative sex?

50:28

Or is it all mental in those

50:30

cases? Or I imagine a mixture, but like...

50:33

Yeah, there's a mixture. Like I've

50:35

dated people where they have never

50:39

touched my genitals. Where

50:41

like the only play is like with

50:43

toys or like my hands or

50:45

something like that, but they don't have permission or privileges

50:47

to do even the sort of like barest

50:50

of sexual contact with me. It's not right,

50:52

like it's enjoyable. And it's like if I

50:54

ever gave them permission, like this is again

50:57

me being like addicted to details. I'm like,

50:59

if I ever cross that, then it wouldn't

51:01

have the same charge of power. It's a

51:03

different dynamic. It's a different dynamic exactly. So

51:06

there's a lot of pleasure and a lot

51:08

of physical pleasure in those relationships. It just

51:10

looks a little bit different. Are

51:13

there other sensations or things that you

51:16

love that we haven't talked about either

51:18

in the course of like romantic fucking

51:20

partnered fucking or just like even burlesque?

51:22

Like I imagine the physical sensations of

51:24

burlesque could be a whole range of

51:26

things, but like physically, what

51:29

does your body enjoy the most?

51:32

So I have burlesque acts that include

51:35

kinks and physical sensations

51:37

that people associate with

51:40

sort of like in the bedroom behind closed doors kind of

51:42

sex. Like I have an act where I'm fully nude and

51:44

I pour a bunch of candle wax on myself. Body

51:47

safe candle wax, right? So you don't get burned like

51:49

from the sex shop candle wax? Not

51:52

from the sex shop, but body safe. So

51:54

the saint candles, here's that religious stuff again.

51:56

Those like saint candles are cheaper wax. It's

51:58

like mixed with middle. mineral oil

52:00

so that it melts at a lower temperature. So

52:02

it's not something that I would like definitely recommend

52:04

to everybody. It's something I've tested out on my

52:06

body. It's intense. It's so intense.

52:10

Yeah, it hurts and that's the point. And like

52:12

I use a lot of different colored ones as opposed

52:14

to just like the white ones because I wanted to

52:16

show up on stage. Those have different melting

52:18

points and those get hotter because of the dyes. It's fine

52:20

for me. It may not be fine for somebody else. I

52:23

don't play with a lot of wax play at home just because I'm

52:25

like, Oh my God, I'm going to get that on my sheets too. I

52:27

can't. I have it's horrible. It's a mess.

52:30

You're like there with the iron and the wax paper or whatever

52:32

the fuck they tell you to do. So annoying. So

52:35

I have that act where I experienced the sensation

52:37

of doing like a ton of wax play with

52:39

myself. I have acts where I like tie myself

52:41

up in rope and those are physical sensations that

52:43

I really enjoy and like I'm

52:45

open to in the bedroom. Like I've

52:47

definitely dated a theater to rope person

52:49

for some time and that was great.

52:51

I really like the sensation of biting

52:53

in this sort of bitey, spitty kind

52:55

of matrix. I really like that kind

52:57

of stuff. I'm not that interested in

52:59

like hitting, although you slap in

53:01

the face and slapping someone in the face like a strong

53:03

cup of coffee in the morning. Okay. I

53:06

think you're the first person who's like not so much impact,

53:08

but yes, face slapping because I'm, I'm yes to all the

53:10

people who have not the face though. And I'm like, Oh,

53:13

okay. Okay. You know, if they know how to do it

53:15

safely, but I love that. There's

53:19

something it's taboo. Like thinking

53:21

to me feels like, you know, like,

53:23

Oh, I'm doing things. I'm so bad. I'm so naughty.

53:25

Whatever. But you really shouldn't hit me in the face.

53:29

I'm like, yes to all of it. Also, I'm

53:31

sitting on a very bruised ass right now because

53:33

I have a partner that loves to overwhelm me

53:35

with space. Like I'm a high sensation seeker, a

53:38

little bit stuck to me. Like I can take

53:40

a lot and I love it all, especially like

53:42

face slapping at the right moment before

53:45

an orgasm or if I'm edging and

53:47

like, you know, avoiding the orgasm, don't

53:49

you dare, you know, like, or like

53:51

good girl. I love

53:53

all of it. Are you a giver of

53:55

those types of sensations at all? Or

53:57

yeah, love to give like down to receive.

54:00

Yeah, I really like seeing what it does to

54:02

other people. And I do think there's like a

54:04

lot of inquiry to be done around the idea

54:06

of stimming and like certain kinds of BDSM

54:09

and impact play as like forms of stimming. And

54:11

so I don't tend to have that same sort

54:14

of response. I feel like

54:16

unfortunately pretty neurotypical. So I'm kind of like, it's

54:18

all a blessing and a curse, right? We can learn

54:20

from each other. I'm like, what's up? Like over there.

54:22

I need best friends who will

54:24

explain the world to me and co-creators. Well,

54:28

okay. Are there other enjoyments, fantasies,

54:30

fetishes, kinks that feel like just relevant

54:32

to even maybe list here in kind

54:35

of a lightning round fashion and

54:37

or things you want to explore going

54:39

forward? I want to be at

54:41

the buffet. I don't consider myself to be like a

54:43

fetishist in the sense that I have like specific

54:46

things that need to be there in order for me

54:48

to enjoy myself. Like there's a lot of different sex

54:51

that I will enjoy and take pleasure

54:53

from. I like to do other

54:55

people's fetishes with them. Yeah. That's what I was

54:57

saying. You sound like I relate to the idea

54:59

of if I had a fetish, it's curiosity

55:02

around sex. And I love, I

55:05

have such strong responsive desire

55:07

that like each person, when I

55:09

learn about them and you seem like this

55:11

to me. So this is why I'm talking about

55:13

myself, but like they become my muse of the

55:15

moment. And then it becomes like, that's where

55:17

I feel like I can do improv. Like I, you

55:19

know, my main artist re used

55:22

to be headshot photography. And I got really, really good

55:24

at like understanding that person's goals, their needs,

55:26

and then just writing them storylines that would,

55:28

you know, guide them through the entire shoot.

55:30

And so like the sex version of that

55:32

is my personal favorite. And so like, I

55:34

totally get what you're saying. Absolutely. Or at least

55:36

I get my version of it. No,

55:38

that's so real. Yes. The responsive desire is like

55:40

a huge thing that it's like, I

55:43

want to see people tap into

55:46

that place that feels so like,

55:49

beyond language, like to have people in

55:51

that sense of like, full embodied

55:54

pleasure. And so whatever it is that

55:56

like gets us there is kind of like cool and

55:58

interesting to me. And Unfortunately,

56:00

I've ended up dating a lot of people

56:02

who are vanilla, which is wild. Interesting.

56:06

I'm like, what are you into? And they're like,

56:08

you know, big boobs and blowjobs.

56:10

I'm like, yeah. Like, so, same, I

56:12

mean, it's nice. Interesting.

56:15

So, like, wasted the time, so. Yeah,

56:17

no, I really relate to that. I really

56:20

relate to that. This might

56:22

be a non-starter question, but the way that

56:24

you might experience that little spark from

56:26

someone's fetish, is there a parallel

56:29

between, like, the way you design

56:31

burlesque shows for yourself? Like, it sounds

56:33

like most of your act

56:36

inspiration comes from some part of

56:38

you. Is it related to your

56:40

sexual self? Is there a, like, connection

56:42

there? I don't find those two

56:44

things to be particularly related in my life. That

56:46

like, my private expression of sexuality is so different

56:48

from a public performance of sexuality. I mean, they

56:50

come from the same brain, right? So, there's going

56:52

to be some overlap. There are going to be

56:54

some common themes. Well, they'll inform each other, but

56:57

it's a different experience is what it sounds

56:59

like. Exactly. And so, it's usually

57:01

much more my narrative brain that's on when

57:03

I'm creating acts. It's like much more of

57:05

a writing process. So, it's more like,

57:07

where do I want to take people? What do I want

57:09

them to understand? Maybe it's sort of

57:12

like, if I'm topping, writing a scene with somebody,

57:14

that it's like, I want to make you feel

57:16

like this. So, what are the

57:18

beats that we go through in order to sort

57:20

of end at that moment, where you truly feel

57:22

the way that I have intended and

57:24

designed for you to feel? Yeah.

57:26

So, it's like the creative turn on. And

57:29

that's distinct from your own physical,

57:32

sexual, emotional, mental turn on

57:34

as a sexy creature. Yeah,

57:36

which I guess is like really outing me as

57:38

like a control person. But like, we

57:41

all are to some degree though. Like, what I've learned

57:43

is like, anytime someone's like, oh no, I'm not. It's

57:45

just because they think they're already in control. And then

57:47

when shit hits the fan, they're like, oh my God,

57:49

I'm not. And I'm like, we never were. We never

57:51

were. We just tell ourselves stories to make us feel

57:53

like we are sometimes. Absolutely.

57:56

Damn. Okay. What

57:58

would you say if you had to just put it in a couple

58:00

of sentences or paragraphs, skills

58:03

that make you a great lover.

58:06

I am creative. I

58:08

am not shy. I am

58:11

attentive. I listen well and

58:13

I speak well. I want the

58:15

things I want. I want to give other

58:17

people the things that they want. That's a fucking great

58:19

answer. What

58:23

are your hopes for your sexual

58:26

future going forward, maybe both

58:28

personally and or professionally? I hope

58:32

to just keep having fun. I think

58:35

that we are not in a

58:37

moment where joy feels particularly

58:39

abundant and sex

58:42

and connection feels like an avenue

58:44

for the experience of joy. And

58:47

so that's my desire for myself. That's my desire for

58:49

other people, a continuation

58:51

of exploration of who we are and how we

58:53

have fun with each other. I fucking

58:55

love that. If you could wave a

58:58

magic wand and teach everyone in the whole wide world

59:00

something about sex, what would it be? You

59:02

get to ask for what you want. And if you

59:04

could go back in time and give younger you a piece

59:06

of sex advice, understanding that we are perfect as is,

59:08

we came up perfect, what age or

59:10

ages would you pick and what would you say? Oh

59:13

my god, I would have sat myself

59:15

down at the kitchen table the day after

59:17

I lost my virginity, you know, whatever the

59:19

the languages that we're using around that after

59:21

I had penetrated sex the first time, to

59:23

be like, it really is just not

59:25

always going to be like this. That

59:27

was bad. I

59:30

had bad penetrative sex once and then that relationship

59:32

ended. And so I'd only had sex once I

59:34

felt like the worst non virgin in the world

59:36

and I was like carrying that as my like

59:38

albatross for some months. It's

59:40

like, just hold on, like the next time is

59:42

going to be amazing. Like, it's so much good. Okay,

59:47

and if you had to be a

59:49

different kind of sex worker for two years, like

59:52

in a world where all of us have to

59:54

serve for at least two years by being a

59:56

sex worker, something you haven't done yet, what other

59:58

kind of sex worker would you be? Wow,

1:00:01

okay. So I

1:00:03

would be interested in like signing up for a two-year

1:00:05

tour of service as a club

1:00:08

stripper, actually. My friends who are club strippers are

1:00:10

like some of the most wonderful people in my

1:00:12

life. Yeah. And it was an early aspiration of

1:00:14

mine as a little girl. And theoretically,

1:00:17

I could do it, but I'm not

1:00:19

in a traditional body that like strip

1:00:22

clubs seek and search for. So

1:00:24

I felt like sad that I wasn't able

1:00:26

to be a club stripper. So I would

1:00:28

be interested in trying that out. I

1:00:32

love that. Also, if everyone had to be some

1:00:34

kind of sex worker for a couple years,

1:00:36

imagine the variety we would get in all

1:00:38

the places. It would change everything. Okay, well,

1:00:41

we're not gonna live in that world. But okay, lastly,

1:00:44

you have an unlimited budget

1:00:46

to build your perfect playroom,

1:00:49

dungeon, castle, mansion, grooveship,

1:00:51

whatever you want. What is it

1:00:53

like? Okay, so I

1:00:56

don't know if you've seen that Netflix show, like

1:00:58

how to build a sex room or whatever. I

1:01:01

actually have it. And I so many people because I

1:01:03

started asking this question around the time it came out.

1:01:05

So I need to on my bucket list. But yes,

1:01:08

tell us tell us. So like, I

1:01:10

think the show is great. I'm glad that it

1:01:12

exists. I think they did

1:01:14

a middling job of it. And

1:01:16

I have a lot of aesthetic bones to

1:01:18

pick here. Oh, no.

1:01:22

Okay, wow. I'm an asshole. Here

1:01:24

we go. No, no, you have

1:01:26

good taste and specificity and vision.

1:01:28

Yes. And I was like, you

1:01:31

don't need to be afraid of natural materials when

1:01:33

you're building a sex room. I

1:01:35

am so annoyed by the presence

1:01:37

of that extremely cheap crushed, like

1:01:39

imitation red velvet. That doesn't

1:01:41

mean sex to me. I'm

1:01:43

like, we're so

1:01:45

annoying. I don't like that sort of cheap

1:01:48

sort of party store purple. I'm not into

1:01:50

that. A lot of sex furniture has like

1:01:53

silver hardware. And I am much more of

1:01:55

a gold girl. So I feel like, okay,

1:01:57

great. So I want golden bronze. Yeah. Golden

1:01:59

bronze. Yeah. and like wood

1:02:01

and leather and drains in the

1:02:03

floor and like different sort of

1:02:06

areas different sort of regions but

1:02:08

not like I don't know I just I felt

1:02:10

like the whole thing like I don't want a

1:02:12

neon sign on the wall that says like baby

1:02:15

or whatever like I don't I don't need that I

1:02:17

don't want that like I just

1:02:20

more case you know or

1:02:22

the opposite where it's like a dirty dive

1:02:25

bar bathroom hmm so you could have the

1:02:27

entrance level is like the dirty dive bar

1:02:29

bathroom and then the speakeasy version that takes

1:02:31

us down to the dungeon or up to

1:02:33

the you know maybe both the turret there's

1:02:36

the goddess room and then the naughty people's

1:02:38

dungeon and maybe the cucks get like a

1:02:40

viewing space I don't know I

1:02:43

love that yeah absolutely like cuckro or whatever

1:02:45

and you have to have a stage with

1:02:47

beautiful curtains so that you can perform there'd

1:02:49

be a stage there'd be I guess a

1:02:51

rectory or whatever you know a

1:02:53

doctor's office you know whatever the things are but

1:02:55

it's not in a sex way like I wanted

1:02:57

to be as close to the thing as possible

1:02:59

cuz I really do want like I'm a fucking

1:03:01

I'm a rainforest cafe bitch you know what I

1:03:03

mean like I like the immersive experience yeah I

1:03:05

want there to be a sort

1:03:07

of as close to the real thing as possible

1:03:09

honestly I like the Disneyland version where it's like

1:03:12

informed by reality but kind of taken to

1:03:15

the next level for hard use

1:03:17

for entertainment purposes and just like

1:03:19

you know like I wait I would had

1:03:21

a doctor's appointment today I was looking around I was like right

1:03:24

this would be a very specific kind of medical

1:03:26

fetish I want the slightly more beautiful version

1:03:28

where like stuff isn't gonna break

1:03:32

absolutely right like you can you can have it

1:03:34

with sort of a a frank Lloyd Wright designed

1:03:36

a medical fetish room that's right well I love

1:03:38

that and if when I have the budget for

1:03:41

it I will call you and see what

1:03:43

your consulting fees are and we can design

1:03:45

the fancy feast room what is the best

1:03:47

place for people to find you on the internet on

1:03:54

Instagram I'm at fancy feast burlesque

1:03:56

fancy feast for less calm is my website that has

1:03:59

a list of my social media, as well as

1:04:01

gallery information about my book, all of

1:04:03

that kind of stuff. And links are

1:04:05

in the description below. Lovers, go

1:04:07

click it, go buy the book. And if you buy the

1:04:09

book, tell me we'll have a little noodley book club. Maybe

1:04:12

there'll be some sort of prize. Tell me what you want.

1:04:14

Sancy, thank you so much for being a

1:04:17

guest on sex stories. Well, thank you for having me.

1:04:19

Lovers, that is our show. I love you for

1:04:21

listening. If you want to

1:04:24

support my work as an independent artist,

1:04:26

which includes this podcast, if you want

1:04:28

to go deeper with me either online

1:04:30

or in person, visit why only.com/link for

1:04:33

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1:04:35

show me your appreciation. You can support

1:04:38

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1:04:40

via Venmo, Cash App or PayPal at

1:04:42

wildly or find direct links in the

1:04:44

footer of my website, wildly dot com.

1:04:46

If you want to learn more about

1:04:48

my personal bits, you can hear my

1:04:51

sex stories very interwoven with my work.

1:04:53

I am discovering on patreon.com/wildly. You

1:04:55

can unlock my naughty photos and

1:04:57

videos one by one at only

1:05:00

fans.com/wild free or you can subscribe

1:05:02

for curated selection of my favorite

1:05:04

and most up to date masturbation

1:05:06

explorations on only fans.com/wildly. If you

1:05:09

want my focus on your personal parts, one

1:05:11

on one virtual options include phone or video

1:05:13

sessions where you can ask me anything, get

1:05:15

relationship advice or noodle on whatever it is

1:05:17

you're thinking about or do the in-person version

1:05:19

and meet me for coffee, lunch or dinner.

1:05:21

If you are in Los Angeles or if

1:05:23

you just need hot stills and or video

1:05:25

for you, your boo or your fans, send

1:05:28

me a message via my website wildly dot

1:05:30

com. I invite all of you to join

1:05:32

me in making twenty twenty four the year

1:05:34

of practicing offering and accepting the

1:05:36

most exquisite irresistible invitations. And

1:05:38

I would love it if you would

1:05:40

send me a voice mail via sex

1:05:42

stories, podcast.com answering any or all of

1:05:44

the following. What irresistible

1:05:47

invitations have you received and

1:05:49

loved? What irresistible invitations

1:05:51

have you offered or are you planning to

1:05:53

offer or are you resisting any

1:05:55

invitation that you don't actually want to

1:05:57

resist? Do you have any stucknesses? Let me know. Personally,

1:06:00

I think a voice memo would make a

1:06:02

great New Year's or Valentine's Day present if

1:06:04

you ever want to. I love receiving good,

1:06:06

thoughtful, sexy stories. Again, sexstoriespodcast.com is where you

1:06:08

can leave me a voice memo, apply to

1:06:11

be a guest, and see all

1:06:13

of my sexy question lists, which I hear

1:06:15

has led to some very hot things between

1:06:17

partners who got curious with each other. Also,

1:06:20

an announcement. Sex Stories

1:06:22

is becoming X Stories. In

1:06:24

part, it is to represent my surrender

1:06:26

to censorship, and it is also

1:06:28

an opportunity to broaden our conversations and creative

1:06:30

discussions to include the many of you who

1:06:33

I hear from who clearly want to connect,

1:06:35

but don't want to talk about sex publicly,

1:06:37

even anonymously. And, I am hoping that

1:06:39

this makes us less censored, actually

1:06:41

searchable on Spotify, and hopefully

1:06:43

more appealing to advertisers, because there's a lot of

1:06:46

stuff that I want to make for you and

1:06:48

offer for you, but I just need more bandwidth.

1:06:50

So while I will always be most curious about

1:06:52

people's sex stories, I am excited to invite people

1:06:54

to talk about all the relational topics that I

1:06:57

have written question lists for and tested out in

1:06:59

the park last summer. So if you want to

1:07:01

check out, critique, and or add to these new

1:07:03

question lists, and consider joining me as a guest

1:07:05

in this new era of possibility, I

1:07:08

have question lists for dating, relationship,

1:07:10

friendship, marriage, divorce, love, secret, creativity,

1:07:12

and play stories, check them

1:07:14

out at yolee.com/share. Sex

1:07:17

stories, or I guess I should say X stories

1:07:19

is produced and edited by the birthday-tastic Kimberly Loftus,

1:07:21

who keeps this pod going and cheers me up

1:07:24

on the days where I get really sad about

1:07:26

the rude social and sexual norms in this world

1:07:28

that we live in. And this is

1:07:30

why more than ever, I encourage you to

1:07:32

take care of yourselves, take care of each

1:07:34

other, and share stories in the name of

1:07:36

lovely human connection.