0:03

I wrote an article called Why You Really

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0:14

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0:17

Emily and I'm here to help you

0:19

prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation

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is a man who has done the

0:25

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0:27

to others. He's a human connection specialist.

0:29

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0:31

today's episode, Mark talks about his new

0:34

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0:36

create the love you desire that he

0:38

co-wrote with his wife. We get into

0:40

how a fateful moment, one Thanksgiving, led

0:42

to many twists and turns in his

0:44

life, how to break free from codependent relationships,

0:46

and why we should all be using the

0:49

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0:51

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the walk. He's a

3:26

human connection specialist, AKA, a emotional

3:29

translator. He helps people

3:31

become their most authentic, loving selves in a

3:33

fun and relatable way through his writing, speaking,

3:35

and coaching, as well as his podcast, books, and courses.

3:39

Mark is the founder of Create the Love and author of the new book,

3:41

Liberated Love, about how to release codependent patterns, which

3:44

he wrote with his wife, Kylie, and you can pre-order it

3:47

now. He's made his mission to create

3:49

the love and pre-order it now. He's made his

3:51

mission to help people through sharing his own personal

3:54

struggles. He has a no-nonsense way of

3:56

giving relationship advice, a little bit of tough love,

3:58

and a whole lot of knowledge. But he wasn't

4:00

always on this path, and what I really love about

4:02

him is his ability to own his own shit and

4:04

guide the rest of us to do the same. His

4:07

advice has certainly inspired me to reflect on my own

4:09

relationships, and I know it's going to resonate with you

4:11

too. Welcome, Mark. Oh my God, I'm

4:13

so excited to be here. I'm so excited to

4:16

have you here. That's at a high standard. I

4:18

better get my poop in a group. Well,

4:21

you do. I mean, honestly, I just remember

4:23

watching you do the pandemic and you

4:25

really just watching your videos and your

4:27

messaging, and it just so resonated with so

4:29

many people. When were you like, oh

4:31

yeah, people are getting this. Like when

4:33

you started getting that reaction from the audience,

4:36

your listeners, your fans. Yeah, you

4:38

know, when I first started writing, the intention

4:40

was to kind of use

4:43

it as a way to excise my shame.

4:45

So when I started to study relationships, it was

4:47

because I had a relationship that ended and I

4:50

was at the time in sales and I was

4:52

good at sales. So I thought, why am I

4:54

so good at talking about everything but my feelings?

4:56

Like this isn't a skill set issue. There's actually

4:59

something else going on here. So I dove deep

5:01

into the science. I wanted to understand like what

5:03

makes relationships work, what makes them not. It was

5:05

just selfish. It was for me. And

5:07

I started to realize like no one taught me any

5:10

of this. Like why was I

5:12

taught the Pythagorean theorem but not

5:14

how to resolve conflict or not

5:17

use gaslighting or whatever it was that I

5:19

was actually an excellent gaslighter. I

5:21

would learn something and then I would write about

5:24

some of the most shameful, painful

5:26

moments of my life and

5:29

translating it into wisdom or what was

5:31

my experience of for me was wisdom.

5:33

Also, it was just like vulnerable creative

5:35

shares. Like I wrote an article called

5:37

Why You Really Can't Get Hard, which

5:39

like what dude writes an article about

5:41

the time he tried to have a

5:43

one-night stand and he couldn't

5:46

get a boner for the first time in his life

5:48

and I was so terrified he didn't publish on that.

5:51

And then I would get messages from people, men and

5:53

women. That was so resonant for me. It's

5:55

brave. I mean, I think you really are

5:57

this example to so many men, which is where I live. I

6:00

love that you show what vulnerability is. You're not

6:02

just saying you should be vulnerable. And I think

6:04

a lot of us don't even understand what it

6:06

means to be vulnerable, to be emotionally available, which

6:08

I love is like your story that you actually

6:10

were that guy, like your 20s or 30s, right?

6:13

You were kind of that guy that something's wrong

6:15

here. But you wanted your- I was the guy I do

6:17

videos about now. Like he's unavailable? Let me

6:19

tell you some things. You're not doing

6:21

him any favors by chasing him. Like

6:23

that's the thing, no nonsense. No BS. You're just

6:25

kind of like, this is how you do it.

6:28

But what I like too is that you do

6:30

speak to all genders, right? It's not

6:32

just like men and women. What do you

6:34

think it is that men

6:37

need to hear today? Man, that's the

6:39

answer every woman has been trying to figure out. Really?

6:42

Well, you know when you think about it. With love though,

6:44

not with nagging them, but like, what are they? Right, right.

6:46

How do I invite someone to meet me in

6:49

a level of commitment, a level of communication?

6:51

And I think it's so layered. I think

6:53

the first part is that when we invite

6:55

men to that, the conversation about masculinity is

6:57

that masculinity is toxic. But that's

6:59

not masculinity that's toxic. It's unintegrated

7:02

pain. It's trauma. It's that men

7:04

are not socialized to be connected

7:06

to their emotions. When a

7:08

man is, let's say in a relationship with

7:10

a woman and the woman is saying, I just can't

7:12

feel you. We look at the research and baby

7:15

boys and baby girls are treated differently from the

7:17

moment of inception unconsciously, you know, we do that.

7:19

And so it's just like, I noticed I have

7:21

a son now. He's 11 months old. And I

7:23

noticed with him, I'm like, ah, you're good. My

7:26

wife is very different with him, you know, where

7:28

she's like, it's okay. And I'm like, it's okay.

7:30

But there's like, he can handle a little. But

7:32

if I had a little girl, I think I

7:34

would be a little different. I'd probably be more

7:36

like her, right? So I see that that is

7:38

within me too. I think what

7:41

men need to be invited to

7:43

meet their partners in that space, but

7:45

also giving grace for the fact that

7:47

if they're going to step into being

7:50

emotionally vulnerable and open and actually become

7:52

emotionally fluent outside of like leadership sales,

7:54

although those are translational skills, they have

7:57

to rebel against the definition of masculinity.

8:00

moment that you start to connect emotionally and

8:02

see the value in your sensitivity, you have

8:04

to at the exact same moment rebel against

8:06

everything you've been taught. So your identity and

8:09

where you think your value lives has to

8:11

die in order to be connected to your

8:13

partner, which I also think the paradox of

8:15

that and you look at like Brene Brown's

8:18

research, it's like the moment a man is

8:20

emotional or vulnerable or cries, he's seen as

8:22

weak. So by his partner, so

8:24

it's like we want emotional men, but

8:26

do we? We know that if

8:29

a man is crying on a battlefield, that's

8:31

not a dude you want beside you. That's

8:33

why it's so tricky. Maybe it would be helpful

8:35

if you shared your story a little bit, your

8:37

journey, because when I say like you were that

8:39

guy, like could you just give us the quick

8:43

notes, like if I'm sitting here with Mark at 20 and now Mark 45,

8:45

a lot of us could

8:48

see ourselves, even myself, I used to blame guys for

8:50

being emotionally unavailable, then I realized that I was emotionally

8:52

unavailable, that was part of my work, but so

8:54

it's really all genders, it's equal opportunity, but

8:56

walk us through it real quick. Well at

8:59

20, I would have had puka shell necklace

9:01

on and some prostitutes, let's maybe a quick

9:03

silver t-shirt. You did it like sun in

9:05

or something? No, like pull through the little

9:07

helmet, you know, the little hooks. If that

9:09

makes a comeback along with 90 style, I'm

9:11

all in. So in my teens, I really

9:13

loved all out. You know, my brother

9:15

nicknamed me sensitor when I was a kid because

9:17

I was sensitive, so I guess if I was

9:19

a dinosaur, I'd have been a sensitive dinosaur, which

9:22

probably means a dead dinosaur. Yeah,

9:26

and so I was very sensitive and when I entered

9:29

my first relationship in like my

9:31

main biggest one in high school,

9:33

I just loved all out.

9:35

Like I didn't, I would say I didn't

9:37

have boundaries around where I directed it, but

9:39

at the time I would have identified as

9:41

being, I'm just, I just love love, you

9:44

know, and I would have said that relationships

9:46

came easy to me, that's what I desired.

9:48

I was in a serial

9:50

monogamous and my first

9:53

and second relationship ended with infidelity

9:55

on the other side and it was

9:58

in the second relationship that it ended. When

10:01

you hear the story for you listening or watching, you're

10:03

going to be like, oh, God.

10:06

Yeah. My girlfriend in university, she

10:08

went away on a scholarship for sports to the

10:10

states. I'm from Canada. And

10:12

when she went away, we were about, I think

10:14

we're together about like 15 months or 16 months.

10:17

And we agreed that, you know, here she is

10:20

going on this like amazing adventure, what an opportunity.

10:22

And I'm like really in love. And

10:25

you know, I think that she was too. We

10:28

agreed that we could see other people.

10:30

We would just tell each other about it. That probably doesn't

10:32

go well. She comes back

10:34

and visits at Canadian Thanksgiving. And

10:37

she comes back and one of her best friends had

10:39

already gone to. They bring their friend

10:41

and their friend. He just happens to

10:43

be built like Cadonis, also

10:46

the running back of the football team. So

10:48

this is great. And I'm sitting at Thanksgiving

10:50

dinner and I think she was like

10:53

sitting to my right. She was sitting across from

10:55

me and her parents were sitting to

10:57

my left. And I remember all

10:59

of a sudden, all the pieces coming

11:01

together like, there's something going on here.

11:03

And you know, if I had boundaries or if it was

11:06

like medieval times, I probably would have thrown the table up,

11:08

taken a sword out, you know, defended

11:10

my honor. I did not do

11:12

that. I ate my mashed potatoes and

11:15

didn't say anything. And my memory

11:17

of that night was saying goodbye

11:19

to her at the bottom of the stairs of her

11:21

house and saying, is this how you

11:23

tell me? And she

11:26

was like, yeah. And I left

11:28

that house different than entering

11:30

the house. What I made

11:32

that experience mean was that when I love people, they

11:34

betray me. I can't trust

11:36

myself. I'd spent my time until that moment,

11:38

which was about 19, really

11:41

believing in love. And you

11:43

know, well, some, not all my friends, but some men

11:45

that I hung out with, I played sports. You

11:47

know, you're in your locker room. You're not talking about like, oh

11:50

man. I just like my girlfriend and I are

11:52

at two years and we just like really figured

11:54

out how to go deeper in intimacy. You know,

11:57

people are talking about blow jobs and whatever. No

12:00

one's like, oh, we had really tantric sex

12:02

last night. We did the wheelbarrow. Like,

12:04

no one's talking about that unless it

12:07

was a one-night stand wheelbarrow. So

12:10

I don't recommend that. Yeah, it's not

12:12

great. I tried that. How do you know what

12:14

their balance is like? Yeah, you

12:16

don't have enough information to be doing acrobatic

12:18

shit. So the article that I wrote about

12:20

why you really can't get hard that is

12:22

relevant to this, because never

12:25

break up right before Halloween. I think that's

12:27

a bad strategy, because Halloween is like when

12:30

really everyone kind of, you know,

12:32

sexes it up a little bit. So I went

12:34

out for a Halloween party, and when I'd

12:36

never had a one-night stand, I'd never kissed

12:39

anyone I didn't like. Like, I didn't know

12:41

that world, but now in my unconscious mind,

12:43

I'm like, love leads to pain.

12:47

So I'm going to try this other side of things. And also, I

12:49

don't know that uncle, and I'm sure you have a lot of thoughts

12:51

on this, but unconsciously, I'm also

12:53

thinking if I can control intimacy,

12:55

not only am I still maintaining

12:58

desire and experiencing arousal, but I

13:00

can control the depth of

13:02

intimacy. And I can still have value

13:04

in my peers. They won't see how much in pain I am.

13:07

So I take a

13:09

girl home to my parents' house, which

13:12

one-night stand, 101, not parents' house.

13:15

No. Like, what a horrible idea.

13:17

Right. Clearly, I'm so bad at

13:19

this. So she's dressed like the devil, which is

13:21

not lost upon me. And

13:24

I'm talking to all this shit about all

13:26

the things that are going to happen. And

13:31

I go to all systems,

13:33

R check, and then I can't

13:36

get an erection. The worst. It

13:38

was the worst because it never made... I had no

13:40

data. I

13:42

didn't know that your values are connected

13:45

to your ability. To your penis. Right.

13:48

It can be. It's more outside for a

13:50

man, so it's more obvious. That's how we can fake

13:52

it so well that men can't. Right. Like,

13:55

there's lube to violate your boundaries. But

13:57

for me, there was not... I needed a shoe horn

13:59

or something. It was like putting a

14:01

marshmallow in a piggy bank and that actually began that

14:03

journey of sort of more of that I

14:06

mean now that term would be more like becoming

14:08

a fuckboy But it was really I was just

14:10

in pain and I actually probably spent two years

14:12

in that and then just trying to figure it

14:15

out and I realized that if I drank enough

14:17

I could diminish my sensitivity to

14:19

my own value system and I

14:23

then met the woman that I Eventually

14:26

had the breakup that woke me up to relationships

14:28

and wanting to understand things, but I

14:31

remember when I was 35 I was on

14:33

a call with a Friend and she

14:35

said to me and I was writing about relationships at

14:37

this point and she said to me You know a

14:39

lot about a lot of things But I want to

14:41

know have you ever actually let a woman love you

14:43

and you know that feeling when someone like tells you

14:46

truth and you're like Yeah,

14:48

and then I got off the

14:51

call and I was like holy shit I

14:53

don't let a woman love me and since

14:56

that Thanksgiving and just like

14:58

how many tried to and I like

15:00

ran from and I Didn't know why you

15:02

know it like expressed as Lack

15:05

of chemistry not alignment, you know, I

15:07

loved women who were just out of

15:09

relationships or like not available

15:11

live somewhere else That's great.

15:14

I will figure it out. I would really chips, right?

15:17

Yeah, and that hit me like

15:20

just so hard and I just

15:22

thought I'm not gonna let that

15:24

happen anymore Like I've allowed what

15:26

happened at 19 because I didn't

15:28

know how to process grief I didn't have

15:30

a mentor who could walk I didn't let

15:32

anyone in to let me to do that

15:34

It's so painful and so I think about

15:37

like that shut it, right that definition of

15:39

masculinity I'm like because I didn't have access

15:41

or I would say like societal

15:43

permission to grief, you know, it's not like I'm

15:45

pretty lucky My dad is really emotionally intelligent He's

15:47

the one who I would talk to about

15:50

heartbreaks and things like that But I didn't let

15:52

him into that and I had so much shame

15:54

about being cheated on. Yeah. Yeah Yeah,

15:57

so no, I love So

16:00

you know what, it made me think so many things. But

16:02

the first thing is that by sharing that, would you say

16:04

that everybody has that moment that you

16:06

had that affects what I were in relationships and

16:08

why we do what we do? Like in thinking

16:10

about that, so I feel like that's a lot

16:12

of what you do with you help people realize like there's that moment

16:15

that I shut down, why

16:18

I am not able to love, why I can't let people

16:20

in. And like, I think that's the thing that, and not

16:22

just men either, it's

16:24

women. And in talking to you,

16:26

I'm thinking about, for me, and I still think I

16:28

struggle with this, but I had something similar in 19.

16:31

I had a lot of things before that,

16:33

but my dad died suddenly. And for me,

16:35

he was 49, and it was like, I know

16:37

that I shut down too. And

16:40

before that, my parents had gotten divorced. So I had

16:42

a lot of evidence that like relationships were tough and

16:44

people leave. And then he died

16:46

one day. And it was like, oh, I

16:48

can't ever like love again. I

16:50

can't let anyone in. And I spent the same thing. Like

16:52

part of me led to my work at 35, because

16:55

I was like, oh, this isn't working.

16:57

Everybody else wants relationships and seems happy. Come to find

16:59

out people aren't happy in their suffering. So you sit

17:01

on the path. But it's like, so I'm wondering, like

17:03

that was my moment. And I still, it never goes

17:05

away, but it's like, oh God, someone's gonna leave me

17:07

if I love. So I've just shut down. And I

17:10

was very much, I think I was a fuck girl,

17:12

to be honest, I think we're very similar. I

17:15

liked unavailable people. I played around. I actually was

17:17

a cheater in my past life. And it just

17:20

didn't feel good. I was getting the highs from

17:22

it. How do we source? Like how do

17:24

we, like you had that wise friend and

17:26

you leaned into it. You were

17:28

ready to lean into the truth. And it sounds like

17:30

then maybe the last 10 years, you've been like, you've

17:32

never done, right? Feeling back layers. But like, how can

17:34

we, because I just want to ask you, do you

17:36

think we all have that place that shifted the course

17:38

of the way we love and the way we

17:40

commit? Yeah, for sure. Whenever I tell that

17:42

story, which I get emotional about. I

17:44

know, like seeing the tears, I'm like, oh, I'm

17:46

emotional too. Yeah, it's not because it's

17:48

incomplete or unresolved. It's actually because I can

17:51

connect with the younger version of myself who

17:53

like was in such pain. And I don't want

17:55

to leave that. I like that I can actually

17:57

now be so connective as opposed to. Like

18:00

I drank to not feel that. Even though there

18:02

was so much wisdom in the betrayal, that

18:04

Thanksgiving dinner, I only got to because

18:06

I agreed that we could see other

18:09

people and tell each other about it,

18:11

but I actually didn't want that. So

18:13

like my external betrayal was

18:15

an internal betrayal long before. And I

18:17

would say almost all, but not all

18:19

external betrayals are preceded by internal betrayals

18:22

of self. And I always

18:24

ask people like, what's your Thanksgiving dinner moment?

18:26

Because what I do is I

18:28

have people finish the sentences when I

18:30

love people they, when I let people love me, I.

18:34

Because both of those, we had, those sentences

18:36

get completed. We like to optimally think, I

18:38

love them back, they love me. But

18:41

there's usually a fear, especially if

18:43

we're repeating patterns relationally, repeating patterns

18:45

in conflict, repeating patterns in types.

18:47

So we're unconsciously reliving the same

18:49

moments. And what I think it

18:51

really, what I've figured it out

18:53

to be true for me, is that

18:56

we have an upper limit of tolerance of

18:58

what sort of grief we can tolerate and

19:00

what sort of pain we have capacity for.

19:03

So we unconsciously control relationships

19:05

so that we never get

19:07

to the Thanksgiving dinner again.

19:10

But what we're doing is actually living in the dinner.

19:13

We build these strategies, whether it's

19:15

unconsciously who we choose or

19:18

our high standards, quote unquote, that

19:20

make it so we are

19:22

never gonna get there again. What we don't

19:24

realize is in the brilliance

19:26

of the moment is actually the

19:28

skill set to go past it.

19:30

I firmly believe that your capacity

19:32

to love someone is always mirrored

19:35

by your capacity to lose them.

19:38

Because when you love someone, you

19:40

are in the moment signing up

19:42

for the loss of them. So if

19:45

a breakup means you lose yourself, then you're

19:47

not ever gonna fully open to someone because

19:49

you're gonna always be protecting from the losing

19:51

of self. And I'm saying if you lost

19:53

yourself because someone left, then that actually is

19:56

the greatest gift because you realize yourself doesn't

19:58

live in their staying or going. is

20:00

in you already and so that I mean

20:02

I think is that truly at the core of

20:04

codependency too is this like if you're okay,

20:06

I'm okay. If I'm enough, you're enough, you're gonna

20:08

need me. I'm gonna need you. So

20:11

let's then let's talk about codependency for a minute. That's

20:13

also your new book. Yeah. Is about codependency. Why would

20:15

you define it? I feel like this is what I

20:17

love about you that you really can kind of get

20:19

people to understand some of these like heavier things or

20:21

things that are just like hard to get into hard

20:23

to understand if we're in it or not. But

20:25

codependency traditionally is associated with relationships

20:27

with addiction, right? Like Al-Anon and

20:30

Codependent No More, which is a

20:32

fabulous book written by Melody Beattie

20:34

is based on Al-Anon. And so

20:36

we see like, oh, you're not

20:38

in a relationship with an addict.

20:40

You must not be codependent. How

20:42

my wife and I really look at it because we

20:44

wrote the book together and we were living out the

20:47

healing of those patterns and we tell our story

20:49

in the book and also because we were together

20:51

five years broke up for a bit. We call

20:54

that the sacred pause and then

20:56

got back together. We call that relationship

20:58

2.0. Is that you're sourcing

21:01

your safety, security, your needs at

21:04

the cost of yourself, like

21:06

at the cost of yourself. So

21:09

there's an abandonment of self in order

21:11

to maintain connection. And I

21:14

love my friend Terry Cole talks about it

21:16

as like you're overtly invested in the outcomes

21:18

of others. Every step of the way

21:20

you're saying that we just abandon ourselves because we want

21:23

to be a pleaser or we want to be loved

21:25

so badly that we are not able to advocate for

21:27

ourselves. So we become I guess

21:30

complacent. We become whoever we need to

21:32

be in order to maintain connection. You

21:34

know, you think about at the root of like

21:37

my wife and I's pattern was my

21:39

baseline. Yeah, what it looked like in those five

21:41

years before you broke up. Well, mine

21:43

was because you know, and now I'm like,

21:45

I'm never gonna be with anyone unavailable. Okay,

21:47

that's not gonna happen. So then I set

21:50

this standard of like, here's what I

21:52

want to create. Here's what it is. I'm explicit about

21:54

it. And my wound at the base

21:56

of how I related was no one chooses me. Like

21:59

you don't That was your back. Yeah, that was that

22:01

that was a Thanksgiving dinner message that you told yourself

22:03

was that no one's gonna choose me or I'd

22:05

say that Was even true earlier. Okay,

22:07

because how I oriented to my family.

22:09

I'm the youngest I

22:11

found that I really oriented around my

22:13

mom's needs, you know, she would often

22:15

be overwhelmed She's raising three kids, you

22:17

know all the realities of being a

22:20

human and as a kid

22:22

I was like, well if my mom's okay,

22:24

I'm okay And so when we orient around

22:26

other people which at the baseline that could

22:28

be someone in a relationship with someone Who's

22:30

you know as a kid your parents are

22:32

addicts. They're narcissists. They're abusive. They're they're

22:34

not around like there's all these different ways

22:36

Yeah, and because we just normalized the fact that your

22:38

parents did something that's impacting you now, right? I mean

22:41

to they were living their life There was a lot

22:43

of information then but there's something to excavate

22:45

from our childhood Yeah, always and in the

22:47

book we go through like what's your relationship

22:49

blueprint so you can figure out what that

22:51

is So for me, it

22:53

was no one you don't choose me. My wife's

22:55

was There's something wrong

22:57

with me that I can't choose this

22:59

relationship. So if you think about it, it's

23:02

perfect I have an Instagram called create the

23:04

love I teach people about relationships You

23:06

couldn't monetize a wound better first off. I'm

23:08

I'm gonna be needed by you. I've got

23:11

courses You're gonna pay to be

23:13

taught by me I've got an Instagram

23:15

where I get validated and I'm out

23:17

there now like helping everyone just like

23:19

sourcing So much validation and

23:21

also if there's something wrong

23:23

and you need help with it I've

23:25

got the solution. Well, that doesn't work in

23:27

a relationship Because in

23:30

order to maintain connection and this happens

23:32

in codependent dynamics One person

23:34

has to maintain being a problem that needs to

23:36

be solved and the other person is the problem

23:38

solver So if all of a sudden and we

23:40

see this in addiction if the one person heals

23:43

the addiction the other person Starts to go bananas

23:45

because they don't have a job anymore, right? So

23:48

with us my wife had a

23:50

dream early in our relationship That she was

23:52

in a burning house and she had to leave

23:54

and the burning house was our relationship So I'm

23:56

like out for a run one day and I'm

23:59

out. Yeah. Yeah So now my husband's

24:01

fire? I'm like out for a run one day and

24:03

I'm like, man, I really chasing her right now and

24:05

it's driving me bananas. So I'm like, hey, I'm just

24:07

sensing that when I like, get you,

24:09

you distance and then I pursue and then you

24:11

distance and I'm like, I don't wanna do that.

24:13

And so like, can we talk about that? And

24:16

she's like, Frick, I had this dream and it's

24:18

terrifying me. I don't wanna leave, but I had

24:20

like, it was so visceral. So

24:22

we talk about it and she's like, I'm gonna see somebody about

24:24

it. So this is like a year in, we

24:26

spend the next- You had a year into the relationship? Okay.

24:29

And then we get together for the first time for four and a half, five years.

24:32

So she goes to, we work,

24:34

talk about it, but underneath all

24:37

this in my unconscious is, our

24:40

relationship was a burning house and she might leave

24:42

in any moment. You can't hear anything else after that.

24:44

She better resolve it. And she was trying, I

24:46

mean, God bless her. She was like,

24:48

what's wrong with me? I have a burning house dream

24:50

even now. But she also was like, it was so

24:53

real. Like I gotta go. So

24:57

eventually we, you know, read enough books,

25:00

did the things, thought, thought, thought, the therapist, fuck yeah. But

25:02

we didn't have someone who like could guide

25:05

us past this pattern that was really being invited,

25:07

which there was a day where I was like,

25:09

listen, I wanna create a life and I wanna

25:11

do it with you. And if you can't do

25:13

it, that's okay. I love you,

25:15

but I'm not gonna hold. That was your first

25:18

boundary. Like I've been through this too many times.

25:20

I, this is what I want. Yeah, it

25:22

was like I finally chose me. In

25:24

the wound I was living out, I

25:27

finally chose myself. And she, in that

25:29

moment, you could feel like she felt

25:32

relief because I still loved

25:34

her. And she couldn't figure

25:36

out why she had to

25:38

go. And what transitioned was I said to

25:40

her, instead of orienting to

25:43

your dream and your intuition, that

25:46

something's wrong with you that you have to go.

25:49

What happens if you actually just have a deep knowing,

25:51

what's coming up for you is coming up for me.

25:53

I just can't put a name to it, but it

25:56

was my chasing. So we oriented to what was coming

25:58

up for her from a place of reverence. And

26:00

we ended the relationship and it was like

26:03

one of the most powerful Experiences

26:05

of my life. We did a closing ceremony for

26:08

the relationship and I mean

26:10

that's so beyond people like I can't I I

26:12

blocked my partner on Instagram and I

26:15

didn't you heard that I wrote her close out the window like

26:17

you know what I mean, you're like we had a ceremony and

26:19

like let's sage and I Mean

26:22

we actually know I know we burned a house

26:25

you burn. We bought not an actual house

26:27

We bought a bird house. Okay, and we

26:29

represented the house from her dream just

26:31

to say like You're wise.

26:33

There was nothing broken about you Like we

26:36

got to the place you intuitively had in

26:38

a dream four years later Like

26:41

that's so beautiful. Yeah, I think

26:43

was the most And

26:46

then you broke up you had this closing ceremony

26:48

and then you found your way back Yeah,

26:51

we we were we were done like I

26:53

was done. I was not no interest in

26:55

getting back together I was no

26:57

interest of going back in a pattern because now I yeah,

26:59

it's choice I trusted myself and if

27:01

you don't have access to a no you don't

27:03

have access to an authentic Yes, and

27:06

neither of us had access to an authentic no

27:08

yet, but we found it So

27:10

now the choice of each other actually doesn't come with

27:12

any what happens if I hurt

27:14

your feelings What happens if we don't align

27:16

none of that now? It's like we have

27:18

a dedication to truth liberated love is a

27:20

dedication to truth and it's also Having

27:23

positive regard for your partner, but also

27:25

their own path their own journey You

27:28

know which I never thought I'd

27:30

be able to live, you know after the

27:32

breakup You mean I just never thought like if

27:34

you had asked 20 year old puka shell from

27:36

tips mark like Could

27:39

you be with someone and acknowledge the

27:41

truth that at some point? You

27:44

your past might depart which is true Which

27:47

is for everybody everybody some of your partner

27:49

could yeah die meet someone else like there's

27:51

always the Leave you any moment

27:53

love deeply. Yep, which makes you have

27:55

to acknowledge the deep truth You

27:58

know that if they can go that means choosing

28:00

to not go, which means there's value in their

28:02

choice, which means what a beautiful thing to give

28:04

to somebody. You could gift it to so

28:06

many people and they give it to you. Well,

28:09

I better be pretty good to keep that. You

28:11

know what I mean? Wow. I

28:13

mean, there's so much there Mark. I'm going back to

28:15

two things now because like this is such a great

28:17

example, like your wisdom and now that with your new

28:19

book, it's like people can really learn how to sort

28:22

of work through all this stuff. But I want to

28:24

go back to one thing. Is there a pattern around

28:26

this emotion? All the couples who've reached out to you,

28:28

what does that look like? How does

28:30

it show up? And then how do we know if we

28:32

should say or go? Big question. That's

28:34

a big question. Well, the first part

28:37

of like, how do you know stuff

28:39

is showing up? If you're even

28:41

thinking about looking it up, it's showing up. You

28:44

know, that's pretty easy. The second one

28:46

is if you have just repeated relational

28:48

outcomes, who you're attracting, who you're

28:51

like, it's so interesting to me that someone

28:53

will unconsciously relate to people who are married

28:55

or in relationship and be like, I just

28:57

keep meeting married men or women.

29:00

And I'm like, no, there's actually something

29:02

much deeper in there. And your soul's

29:05

evolution, inviting you to heal something isn't

29:07

just doing this by accident. Like your

29:09

Tinder doesn't have a virus in it. You

29:12

have something that you call a green

29:14

flag that other people call a red

29:17

flag. And that's okay. But let's just

29:19

get to the root of it. So

29:21

I'd say like repeated outcomes

29:23

in relationship, fighting with your partner about

29:25

the same things over and over again,

29:27

feeling like you're at an upper limit

29:30

in your relationship, like maybe you're disconnected,

29:32

maybe you're not having sex, maybe you

29:34

feel like resentment towards them, contempt, any

29:36

forms of tolerating any abuse. Attraction

29:39

to unavailability is a pretty dating projects,

29:43

dating people who – Do you care about first? Yes,

29:45

yes, dating projects where you notice that

29:47

you're overly invested in your own appearance

29:49

of I'm a good person,

29:51

I'm the better person, I just take

29:53

care of people. I love all out.

29:55

That's a favorite of codependent people. I

29:58

just love all out. people

30:00

don't seem to be able to meet me with

30:03

the giant capacity that I have for love, which I

30:05

would have said when I was 17 or

30:08

18. To then get to the question of like, how do

30:10

I know if I should stay or go, which

30:12

is such a powerful entry

30:15

to inquiry, because if you're

30:17

asking that at least you're no longer

30:19

in an autonomous process in relationship. Like

30:21

you no longer are out of power, you're like, oh I'm

30:23

questioning, should you say that? Yeah, and we usually get there

30:26

because we are disconnected from

30:28

ourselves. You know, in

30:31

the research we talk about things like

30:33

the honeymoon phase, which then leads to

30:35

what they call more companionate love, where

30:39

the term I like, which is like

30:41

the fall from grace, like your partner that you

30:44

revere and it's just amazing, all of a sudden

30:46

becomes a human who farts and doesn't always dress

30:48

up, you know, like all the different things and

30:50

the humanization of them. But

30:52

what I see happen in

30:54

longer-term relationships where chemistry, quote-unquote,

30:57

dies, is that what- It always

30:59

dies. Right, which is in

31:01

my thought is that what

31:03

actually happens is the space between

31:05

you and your partner, the self

31:07

abandonment, the erratic self

31:09

erasure, the eradication of who you

31:11

are, your identities, your passions, everything

31:14

like that, which actually creates two

31:16

individuals, that is gone.

31:18

So what happens is you actually

31:20

unconsciously blame your partner and the

31:22

relationship for you not prioritizing and

31:24

caring and being in your dreams

31:26

and prioritizing yourself, so you don't

31:28

want to bang somebody that

31:31

you blame for you giving

31:33

up on yourself, not seeing your friends anymore.

31:35

You know, once I got this message from

31:37

this woman where she said, you know, my

31:39

partner and I have the best relationship, we

31:42

have amazing communication, everything

31:44

is unreal, but our

31:46

chemistry is just not

31:48

there. And I was like, has it ever been there? She

31:51

was like, yeah, yeah, we used to

31:53

have amazing chemistry. So that right away tells me

31:55

that there's something deeper going on. And I said,

31:57

do you ever not tell him the truth? She

32:01

was like, nah, our like communication's dialed.

32:04

Like we're honest with each other, we have

32:06

great conflicts, navigation. And I said, okay,

32:08

what about when you have sex? And

32:10

she was like, what do you mean? I was like, all right, so let's say

32:12

he's going down on you and he's

32:14

just not doing what's working.

32:17

Do you tell him? And she

32:19

was like, well, no. I

32:22

was like, so this fucking guy is down

32:24

there, his jaw's falling asleep, his tongue's now

32:26

licking his own eye. He's trying

32:28

every move to like trying to get free lives

32:31

on a Nintendo and you're not telling him. Why?

32:35

And she said, because why don't want to hurt his feelings? I said,

32:37

that's it. That's the part where you're not being

32:39

truthful. Yeah, that's the codependency. Sex. Yeah.

32:42

Well, how does it show up in our sex life? Then where do you see it? The

32:45

codependency showing up is that it's not sharing

32:47

our authentic truth because we're so afraid of

32:49

sharing what we need, what we want. Think

32:52

about how, I mean, you know this.

32:54

It's like you're not even able to

32:56

fully be authentic in your self-expression for

32:58

what you actually need

33:00

explicitly to

33:02

achieve whatever you want to achieve, which

33:05

that gets in the way of connection.

33:07

So it's like a micro version

33:10

because if it's happening there, I

33:12

guarantee it's happening elsewhere. You

33:14

know, like when someone says like we no longer have

33:17

sex, it's like, you know, that's like a magnifying glass

33:19

to other things. And some people still

33:21

have sex and that's the only place they

33:23

actually experience emotional safety. Yeah, but

33:25

that's rare. That's definitely rare. But like, okay, so that's interesting.

33:27

I never, because I would say the majority of couples that

33:30

I see are going to go through that period. The

33:32

death of the honeymoon phase. And

33:34

this whole like, where, how did I get here? Who was

33:36

this person in front of me? And

33:39

I've seen all this reality that's canceling out this chemistry,

33:41

which we all know is just

33:43

this, the crazy chemistry in our brain that feel

33:45

good hormones that are allowing us to connect someone.

33:49

It's going to come down. And we don't have sex anymore. So yeah,

33:51

I could definitely see that. That's almost a great

33:53

way of pinpointing that you're actually being codependent by not sharing because I'm

33:55

always trying to able to talk about their sex life. It's so complex

33:57

and so heavy. And we're so afraid that he's going to be able

33:59

to do it. or something's wrong with us or

34:01

our partner's gonna feel bad so we just don't talk to them

34:04

about it. That is a great place to get people to start

34:06

and be like what is wrong? Well if you want

34:08

to heal everywhere in our relationship, that's true. I do one

34:10

thing is how you do everything. Exactly and it's like

34:12

if you want to experience like what we call

34:14

liberated love is interdependency. It's

34:16

like can you lay at

34:19

the altar of your relationship the truth?

34:21

Like my wife and I have a

34:23

dedication to truth above everything because

34:25

you know most of us are so afraid that

34:27

our relationship might end or we're afraid our partner

34:29

won't like what we say or we express a

34:31

boundary and it won't be honored or respected which

34:34

is possible but it's like if you keep not

34:36

sharing what is true for you because you're afraid

34:38

of how someone might respond. They are not trusted

34:40

that they can hold the information. You also

34:42

reinforce the belief in yourself that you're not

34:44

worthy of being heard. So you

34:46

get to blame them for the fact that you're not

34:49

sharing and on top of

34:51

that the relationship never gets

34:53

the chance to actually grow and

34:55

change. It is now a

34:57

prison and so why would you want to

34:59

be intimate with someone that you

35:02

can't share how you truly feel? Like

35:04

I find it wild that when relationships

35:06

end then we're like I'm gonna

35:08

do what I love, I'm gonna pursue my dreams. All

35:10

of a sudden like why are we not

35:13

doing that in our relationship? And I think to like at

35:15

20 if my partner said you

35:17

know especially after my girlfriend went away to

35:19

the States and brought Adonna's home, it's

35:21

like if someone said to me

35:24

then I need to go do something and blah

35:26

blah. I'd probably have a very controlling, jealous,

35:29

like I can't do you know there would be some because

35:31

I haven't I don't think her

35:33

coming fully alive or her going on

35:35

her path might actually hurt my path.

35:38

Like if she leaves which should have been

35:40

what actually happened, I would just get

35:42

trusting her path and if I try

35:44

to control where she goes

35:46

and what she does and her actually coming

35:48

fully alive, that's because I'm afraid of my

35:50

I'm not doing it. Relationships

35:54

should be the place where we are liberated

35:56

from our patterns like the frictions we have

35:58

in any conflicts in any relationship but

36:00

I'd say especially romantic are

36:02

just showing us where our work lies. But

36:05

what is so interesting about everything you're saying is that

36:07

it's such a crutch for us to

36:09

be the victim, blame someone

36:12

else for our problems. It's something

36:14

they did but really your

36:17

reframe is that it's truly an opportunity

36:19

for growth and it's a

36:21

direct roadmap to where we have to do our

36:23

work and in fact I remember therapists at this

36:26

once like you unconsciously choose the partner that's showing

36:28

you where you need to do the work and

36:30

where you need to grow. Would you say the

36:32

majority of the couples who are together if they

36:34

are both willing to do the work and look

36:36

at themselves that they could make it

36:39

work if they commit to the process? Like I

36:41

think at the baseline if you look at like

36:43

Stan Tacken's work he talks about how the reason

36:45

relationships fail is they fail to make clear agreements

36:47

at the beginning. A lot of us get married

36:49

not even knowing what we're doing we're like 20

36:52

and you're like I'm Christian I might as well

36:54

get married so I can bang. There's all these

36:56

different reasons I'm 25 I've been in this relationship

36:58

forever. You know we all enter relationship as a

37:00

different person we have different desires that's gonna change

37:03

as you grow. I mean so many people in

37:05

their 40s 50s 60s who are like I don't

37:07

want what I have anymore and I'm like that

37:09

makes sense you made an agreement at 22

37:12

and your relationship maybe

37:15

if it was possibly gonna be aligned it

37:17

doesn't have the skills you don't have the

37:19

skills in the container to actually create what

37:21

you want to create. So do I think

37:23

it's possible? 100% it's possible

37:25

you need someone who can take

37:27

responsibility is curious, oriented to growth.

37:30

I think if you have those as the baseline like when

37:32

Kylie and I broke up I wasn't

37:35

concerned about finding someone. All I need

37:37

is someone who wants to grow has

37:39

humility and is ready to change and

37:42

we have aligned visions. But the thing is

37:44

I keep thinking like why don't we have a relationship

37:46

contracts and literally maybe you have this in your book

37:48

I don't know I've been thinking like when else in

37:50

our lives do we sign a contract forever without

37:53

checking like no pressure date no renewal contract

37:55

no lawyer nothing you're like okay forever

37:57

cool. Are you sure you want to say that like till

37:59

death? Should we just say? I

38:01

think it's a metaphorical death personally. Death

38:04

of the self who said yes because like

38:06

no matter what if you want to step

38:08

out of code abandoned patterns, your relationship has

38:10

to end. Like your pattern

38:12

has to end and it's actually in the willingness

38:15

for a relationship to end that you're now free

38:17

to choose it. Like as

38:19

I was saying earlier, if you don't have access to the no, you

38:21

don't have access to the yes. So if you're

38:23

afraid your relationship is going to end or your partner

38:25

might leave, then you're not actually going to be authentically

38:27

connected to the choice in the relationship. And

38:29

most people come to me when they've never talked about their

38:31

sex life ever. We've been together for 10, the thing is

38:33

it's not just your 20s. Like I have people in their

38:36

40s, 50s, literally my audience is 18 to 83 because most

38:38

people have never talked about sex and they wake up one

38:40

day with a partner or they're dating but let's just talk

38:42

about the couples and they're like no, we never, we talk

38:44

about everything about our sex life or

38:46

we've never talked about it and now here we are,

38:48

what do I want, what do I need? But

38:50

then there's many other things too. So I just think

38:52

like some kind of like anyone who's even dating now,

38:54

what are the things you think that we could get

38:56

clearer on to not save us from the pain because

38:58

we need some of the pain but like what are we missing?

39:01

Like what are the questions that we need to ask? I

39:03

just keep thinking about this renewable contract that they

39:05

could have if you're committing like we commit every

39:07

six months or every year and we meet our

39:09

values, we meet our goals, how's

39:11

our sex life? Well, I

39:13

think building in that habit of checking anyways is

39:16

just so important. It's so important. Yeah, I agree

39:18

with you. The relationship, the sexual that's

39:20

checking. I'll be right back after a quick break

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That's lelo.com. That's l-e-l-o.com. Also, you

40:46

can check out the link in

40:48

the show notes. Hey,

40:56

it's Emily. I know you don't be for my

40:58

podcast, Sex with Emily, which I've been doing out

41:00

for almost 20 years. It's been

41:02

downloaded over half a billion times, but now

41:05

I have an announcement to make. I am

41:07

breaking out of the studio and coming to

41:09

a live theater audience. I'll be

41:11

in San Diego on April 10th and

41:13

then in Phoenix on April 18th.

41:16

So let's talk about sex. During these

41:18

nights, I'm going to get into all

41:20

of your nitty-gritty sex questions. I

41:23

know you have sex questions like how to give your

41:25

partner an orgasm, how to talk dirty, how to

41:27

experiment with role play, using a toy. We're going

41:29

to laugh. We're going to learn. I mean, who

41:31

doesn't want to improve their sex lives with some

41:34

new friends in the audience? So whether you're single

41:36

in a relationship or somewhere in between, this

41:38

event is for you. Look forward to

41:40

an evening where your curiosity is celebrated,

41:42

your questions are answered, and your laughter.

41:45

Well, that's on the soundtrack. Leave your

41:47

inhibitions at the door and join me

41:49

for an unforgettable event. So mark your

41:51

calendars, San Diego on April 10th, Phoenix

41:54

on April 18th. Trust me, this

41:56

is one night you won't want to miss. So I hope

41:58

to see you there. Spread the word. Tell

42:00

your friends and we'll put the links in

42:02

the show notes, San Diego, Phoenix and more

42:04

to come. So, let's laugh our way to

42:07

better sex together. Are you in? Speaking

42:15

of sex, I have to ask you this. You

42:17

got married recently. We got married a month before

42:19

we had our kid. Okay. And

42:21

you're a baby. So, how's your sex life? Well,

42:23

after having a kid, definitely different. Well, that's

42:25

right. Yeah. We all know

42:28

that. So, yeah. I'm just saying, I

42:30

want to normalize the fact that your sex life is going

42:32

to take a hit after you're a baby. It completely

42:34

changed for now. But for me, you

42:36

know, that I see

42:38

as a season. My wife

42:40

and I talk about it. We talk about

42:42

like how vulnerable it is now. How different

42:44

it is for her especially. For me, I'm

42:46

like, whoa, I still want to do it.

42:48

That's great. But I also have to have

42:50

so much compassion for the changes, the things

42:52

her body has been through. And

42:55

so, it's really interesting to explore. And

42:57

I knew this cognitively before we had

42:59

a kid, but that, you know, a

43:02

kid when it touches mom, it needs

43:04

something. So, now when I touch mom,

43:06

I need something. So, there's like this

43:08

association with need. And so,

43:11

really being mindful of how do we navigate

43:13

that and how do we actually create space

43:15

for like the needs I have, the needs

43:17

she has to enter

43:20

back into that sacred space, you

43:22

know? That's really what it is. Normalize

43:24

people that that's going to happen and expect it. Like I

43:26

almost wish because we also know here how it's such an

43:28

unfair the treatment of like women go to their doctors. Doctors

43:31

like, you should be good to go for this baby in

43:33

six weeks. It's like that's so not true for so many

43:35

women. It's like and just to normalize

43:37

that it's not going to be okay. I love that

43:39

you figured you would know this and it's harder and

43:41

we got to have compassion and just know that it's

43:44

a season. It's going to come back again. I mean, my

43:46

wife is expressive. You have to redefine intimacy. I can't

43:48

help that. You have to be with someone expressive. I

43:50

married like a woman who has

43:53

thoughts and feelings and power. And

43:56

you know, that was the difference when we came

43:58

back together. Like she really chose me. And

44:01

that I was terrified of but it was

44:03

everything I always wanted which is so ironic

44:05

But I'd say all that because she like

44:07

not so much She's a

44:09

little bit turned out a little bit of that part

44:12

I didn't that but I love it It is so hot

44:14

like the self expression that she has the

44:16

access to her power voice her know like

44:18

that is hot Boundaries

44:20

are so sexy like when someone's like it's

44:23

not okay what you said you're like, oh

44:25

tell me more You know and

44:27

with her what I love is that that

44:29

act is sacred It created

44:31

our child like he's a miracle watching her

44:34

give birth I remember watching her give birth

44:36

being like do you think he could do

44:38

anything now cuz I would have tapped out

44:40

She's 30 something hours of labor and I

44:42

remember thinking what was wild about that was

44:44

I was like looking at my clock And I'm

44:46

like this ends at some point But I don't

44:48

know how it ends and as a man I

44:50

want to like resolve her of her pain But

44:53

I couldn't do anything other than just be

44:55

in space with her like champion

44:57

her cheer her on It

45:00

created so much of reverence like a deeper

45:02

love for her that I

45:04

couldn't have had without that experience I

45:07

have a friend who texted me not long ago. He just

45:09

had a baby and he said hey Like

45:12

my wife and I haven't had sex in a bit. Is

45:14

this normal and I was like, yeah, man

45:16

We went to our six-week follow-up That's

45:18

what I meant to say and we go to our

45:20

follow-up with our like our midwives are also labor and

45:22

delivery nurses And we're sitting with them and she

45:25

says She says have you

45:27

guys so you guys can have sex now if you

45:29

guys had sex and I was like, I'm sorry Do

45:32

people say yes to that and she was

45:34

like, well, I mean sometimes and I was like how

45:37

first off There's a baby there all the

45:39

time. That's not my idea of romance And

45:42

that's where I recognize that that's

45:44

where the male needs get prioritized

45:46

over the woman's healing and

45:48

the male Doesn't have to just

45:50

sit in the fact that he's not

45:52

gonna have arousal for a little bit

45:54

like turn it into creativity Turn

45:57

it into purpose. Hold that space like

45:59

as war You

46:01

know instead of like I can't

46:03

not jizz for fucking five months like

46:06

masturbate healthy part Relationships like exactly her she'll

46:08

be there so you back me you need

46:10

her eventually perhaps But it's

46:12

also you can also like let your you could say jizz

46:14

on your show right you could say whatever I wanted I

46:16

always wanted to say that I don't think it's a good

46:18

one to get there We don't say just enough anymore. They don't

46:21

there's so many good sexual. There are

46:23

yeah, talk about what else did we say boner? Don't

46:26

say boner. Yeah, there was one earlier that I

46:28

heard I don't think we give

46:30

enough hand jobs either. I think handouts come back. You know how to do a

46:33

blip What a good hand job is

46:35

great. He's a two-handed hand job exactly.

46:37

I know I feel like there's just

46:39

so much about sex It is they're underrated

46:41

chips because they're considered first-base

46:43

and they're underrated like oh

46:45

here. We are first base Yeah, so can we just

46:47

go to third yeah, don't get me wrong third is

46:49

pretty no right They're all good, but that's the thing like how is

46:52

it even a hierarchy over stuff that makes you feel good? Sexually

46:54

so true and then it's like for

46:57

me I would instantly

46:59

when I started dating be like oh my

47:01

god I love this person like I could

47:03

I've already imagined the life. I'm

47:05

like the chair. Yeah, yeah exactly And

47:08

so I'm like I've imagined the life.

47:10

This is amazing and what was so powerful

47:13

in our container Was that

47:15

I would feel that need

47:17

to be like we're doing this like it's

47:19

all in and then I would realize like

47:21

oh Wait, it's not and

47:23

is this a fit for me? Because

47:26

what I did as a kid because I wanted

47:28

people to choose me and and if they

47:30

chose me then I'm safe Like we're if

47:32

we're in a relationship you post me on

47:34

Instagram things are good But

47:36

what that wasn't real that's not

47:38

grounded choice So what I

47:40

realized was I was actually acting in discernment like

47:42

is this a good fit for me is this

47:44

yes Is it a no I was

47:47

so I would say yes to something that wasn't

47:49

Which is of course like the pursuit of an

47:51

unavailable person is Giving your

47:54

attention and your time to someone who

47:56

you're actually not being discerning about why

47:58

would you ever like a pre-quality? for

48:00

anyone to be your person in

48:02

whatever capacity that means is that they actually

48:04

choose you. Like if that's not there, nothing

48:07

else should be there. Would you say that's the whole

48:10

thing happening now with like the situationships and toxic relationships?

48:12

Because in my opinion, I want to know yours, I

48:15

feel that a situationship is just inherently like

48:17

there's one person who wants something different than

48:19

the other one. They're not communicating and clearly

48:21

they have a lot of, like they're rich

48:24

rife with problems. I agree, like friends

48:26

with benefits. I think 99.9% of the time, because

48:30

I'm sure that somebody's listening, he's like, not me,

48:33

which much love. There

48:35

is one person who is

48:37

minimizing what they desire to match

48:40

the other person's desire. And

48:42

you know what, that's self abandonment. That's like

48:44

what that says, that's codependent because it's

48:47

saying what I actually desire

48:49

I'm not going to be able to get,

48:51

I'm not worthy of. So I have to

48:53

actually hide my desires in friendships, friends with

48:55

benefits and situationships in order to kind of

48:57

get my need met. But

49:00

I'm going to be praying that they change their

49:02

mind, that they fall in love. If I blow

49:04

them enough, they'll love me. No, I guarantee that

49:06

guy is like, I found this chick who just

49:09

loves giving me head and she

49:11

doesn't want anything. Yeah. It's

49:13

like wild. I hope the blow jobs get better than

49:15

you're going to love me. But I also want to

49:17

say this part though, there is the people who truly,

49:19

and this is rarer, who are

49:21

like, I don't have time for relationship right now,

49:23

truly. And they're like, I'm with

49:25

you. It's not any point out, but

49:28

I always want to like give a shout out. I see you. You're

49:30

like open and you're sleeping, you're giving a few blow jobs. You're going

49:33

down in a bunch of people because you're

49:35

exploring your craft or your life and you really don't

49:37

have time and space for relationship right now. But then

49:39

you might also be a workaholic and be avoiding intimacy,

49:41

but you might generally be in a place that

49:43

targets expressing. So I have so many like ways I

49:46

go with this because I actually do know people who

49:49

are happily, seemingly so at this stage

49:51

in their life open, like Mary

49:53

is open. Yeah. So I guess I

49:55

think I like present benefits better than

49:57

situationships because situationships feel more toxic and

49:59

unhealthy. people are like coming at you have

50:01

like a situation ship sounds like we've got I can't

50:03

really define about friendship like okay if

50:05

you really are mean they're pretty much the same

50:07

thing but there are healthy we're just like throwing

50:10

another like couple people going through

50:12

a breakup that are like I want intimacy

50:15

and connection I trust you we have we

50:17

treat each other with reverence and respect you

50:19

know I think the one good rule of

50:21

thumb to have is that if you can't

50:23

do it sober don't do it because then

50:26

you're having to numb yourself to be in

50:28

a situation and then you already know that

50:30

that's there's no win there I know you're

50:32

sober right yeah and so people start drinking

50:35

at a young age because the thought of being

50:37

into it with someone is so terrifying they

50:39

always pat marry the sex they would have

50:42

to have sex and alcohol or are there

50:44

drug of choice so when they

50:46

stop that it's really hard to be intimate because that

50:48

was actually their crutch Randy think like

50:50

we shame and guilt are so correlated

50:52

with sex especially because you

50:55

know if let's say for example and

50:57

I not not all religion is like

50:59

this but often it's like if you

51:01

are aroused or have intimacy you're going

51:03

to hell or you're bad you're

51:05

dirty you're whatever that way right I grew

51:07

up Catholic and that messaging I remember we

51:09

were in a class in high school and

51:11

they brought this couple in that had sex

51:14

and had a baby and basically

51:16

the couple was saying like don't do this

51:18

or you have to become us and then

51:20

you come and talk to a class like

51:22

they were basically parading them around and I

51:24

guess it was like a walk of shame

51:26

I remember sitting there being like this

51:29

isn't good like this isn't nice this isn't kind

51:31

and at the same time I'm having sex with

51:33

my girlfriend you know so it was

51:36

it's a strange feeling because if if you're

51:38

taught that arousal is bad but

51:41

innately humans experience arousal then you either

51:43

have to believe you're bad

51:46

or deny arousal which you can't like with

51:48

that's not actually real so you

51:50

end up with all these people who

51:52

are walking around with shame and guilt

51:54

who need alcohol to actually be in

51:56

these important sacred intimate moments because it's

51:58

a You know, we know it

52:00

numbs us so we can't have the thoughts about being bad and

52:02

being cool and that like I'm going to be so blind from

52:04

masturbating and be so down. Right. Like

52:07

it's, I remember going to the sex museum where

52:09

they had like medieval tools and one

52:11

of them was like a, it looked like

52:13

a ring that went around like

52:15

the teenager's penis and if

52:17

they got an erection, it would set

52:20

off a bell and I'm like, that would,

52:22

cause you're not, it's not your choice in

52:24

your, you know, in your sleep. Oh my

52:26

God. All of a sudden bells are going off.

52:28

Exactly. But the funny thing is what, what

52:31

instead of that now they just have your bell going off as

52:33

your brain saying, this is wrong. This is wrong. Even

52:35

if you're, this is right. They could be in their forties. They haven't been

52:37

church in 20 years, but they

52:40

still have that. You can't like, it's like you're

52:42

indoctrinated into this like, you know, beliefs at your

52:44

young age. I wasn't raised that way, but

52:46

like it's so hard to shake that completely. And

52:48

then, yeah. And then we're just kind of

52:50

screwed unless we do this inner work and heal it. Cause all

52:52

the work that you talk about, I talk about is really

52:54

just healing these messages that are

52:58

leading us through a life of really

53:00

having way less pleasure and connection and fun. But

53:02

the intimacy and the love comes and the depth and pleasure comes

53:04

and you actually can be vulnerable and real,

53:07

which is how we all started this, which is

53:09

such a. So like,

53:11

imagine if the relationship is the

53:13

relationship is bringing up something that

53:15

needs to be worked through so that

53:18

you can get more intimacy, more connection,

53:20

more access to your voice, more

53:23

access to sex, to arousal.

53:25

But like authentic, like witnessed

53:27

arousal, like authentic, vulnerable

53:30

connection. That to me

53:32

is why romantic relationships are such a powerful space.

53:34

And I totally agree with you. It's like, it

53:36

doesn't matter what brings you to the, why do

53:38

I do what I do? But that

53:40

is the should I stay or go? That

53:42

point of inquiry is, okay, why do

53:44

I do what I do? What do

53:46

I truly want to do and experience in my life?

53:48

Have I ever asked myself that question? What

53:51

do I actually need? What do I actually

53:53

want? Can the relationship be part of what

53:55

brings that to surface? Because as

53:57

I said before, it's so crazy that people.

54:00

leave relationships and become everything. It's like

54:02

use your relationship as a place to

54:04

become everything. Like my wife can

54:06

reflect to me things that I don't see. About

54:09

herself or about me? About me. Right,

54:12

because you have that. She can see it. She'll say to

54:14

me like, hey, I noticed you're playing small in this.

54:16

Like, I love you and you

54:19

can't do that. And I'm like, oh, God,

54:21

like you see me. Yeah.

54:24

And it's still, huh? Right. Because I think some people

54:26

think, well, going back to how we started this was

54:28

that like men, it's such confusing messages right now that

54:30

men are totally wanting to be emotional about like, don't

54:32

cry here, don't cry here. Like a lot of men

54:34

hear that. They go, oh my God, if my partner

54:36

told me I was playing smart, said anything was small.

54:39

I was very like, feel awful and feel

54:41

like so much shame. But you actually are

54:43

able to do, I've done the work when

54:45

we say the work to feel like, oh,

54:47

it's actually love. It's not judgment criticism.

54:50

It's helped you be bigger. Yeah.

54:53

And that she, we

54:55

have the access to the language that

54:58

at least minimizes the amount of triggers

55:00

because, you know, language is important. But

55:02

also the fact that, you

55:04

know, I have had to sit with

55:07

my shame, my unworthiness, my defensiveness, you

55:10

know, my mastery was being defensive.

55:12

Yeah. Yeah. Done so much. Okay. So

55:14

I have a final question for you.

55:16

Before we get into a question from a listener, I'd love

55:18

you to help me answer. But if we had to like,

55:20

just if you had to say like, there

55:22

are three things that someone could do now that

55:25

would help them know if they're on the path and

55:27

get on the path towards the love they want. Well,

55:30

I'd say the first one is getting real

55:32

with your reality. You know, like there's no

55:34

change that doesn't come with actually telling the

55:36

truth. You know, are you

55:38

happy? Does your relationship bring you alive?

55:41

If you're single, is it like, are

55:43

my standards actually walls? Like, am I

55:45

afraid of connection? Like, what do I

55:47

do to avoid connection? What are the

55:49

strategies I have in conflict? What's, what's

55:51

my side of the street? And

55:55

the second side of that, I think would be,

55:57

okay, now that I know those things. What

56:00

are some things that I could do to learn

56:02

about that? Can I bring it if I'm in

56:04

a relationship? Bring them

56:06

forward to the relationship. You know, what I

56:09

said about my wife and I, that was

56:11

a radical transformation is that we

56:13

saw that if something's coming up for one

56:16

person, it's coming up for the other. It's

56:18

like playing leapfrog. You know, one person's awareness,

56:20

or let's say if you believe in God,

56:22

the universe, whatever you call it, there's a

56:25

ping coming to one person. And

56:28

although the other person might not understand it

56:30

yet, it is treating

56:32

the other person with reverence when

56:34

you say there's wisdom in what's coming up

56:36

for you. If we could

56:39

walk shoulder to shoulder looking at that thing,

56:41

you have two people who

56:43

can actually problem solve and actually say, like,

56:45

you trusted me with this? I

56:47

think the third part is like, actually get clear on what

56:49

you're committed to. Some of us are in

56:52

relationships that we actually have no interest in being in. You

56:54

know, but that doesn't serve anybody, you

56:57

know? It'd be good

56:59

for all relationships. Like if you don't like love your job, or

57:01

your problems, your friendships, it's just like really goes back to ourselves,

57:03

what's going on here. And that's also like,

57:05

you could see your part, we all have a part in everything.

57:07

Takes two as a handout. It does. And that

57:10

level of ownership, that self ownership of

57:12

like, I will no longer tolerate

57:14

mediocrity from myself. It doesn't even have to start

57:16

with other people, but that could be where it

57:18

begins. Cause you, you know, you had a crappy

57:20

person you were dating or the partner you're in

57:23

relationship with isn't interested in growth.

57:25

And actually it doesn't listen to any feedback

57:27

you have. It could

57:29

start there. But any of that is really

57:31

just evidence of your own tolerance

57:33

for ambivalence, tolerance for

57:35

mediocrity. Like anyone who

57:37

really steps into like full responsibility for

57:39

their life, will no longer want to be in a

57:42

relationship with someone who doesn't take responsibility for

57:44

their life. You can't be a victim and

57:46

also take responsibility for your life. And that's

57:48

not negating true experience of victimization, but it's

57:50

saying like, you can't change what's happened in

57:52

your life, but you can change what you

57:54

do with what's happened. Let's

57:56

answer this question from Sergio. He's

57:58

33. to in Thailand. Hi

58:01

Sergio in Thailand. What's up Sergio? Dear Dr.

58:03

Emily, I've been in a relationship for nearly

58:05

two years now with the woman of my

58:07

dreams. She's everything I ever wanted to partner.

58:09

She's beautiful, talented, ambitious and caring. She'll do

58:11

anything for me. There's always this part, but,

58:13

but I've been struggling to emotionally disconnect from

58:15

a couple of women I've flinged with prior

58:18

to meeting my current girlfriend. I haven't had

58:20

any physical contact with them in two years

58:22

and I don't believe they were that into

58:24

me back then, let alone now, and

58:26

certainly not like my current girlfriend is. In

58:28

fact, I still think what if and even

58:31

fantasize about them a lot. My

58:33

girlfriend doesn't suspect any of this, but it's having

58:35

a detrimental effect on my mental health and in

58:37

my ability to be 100% present with her. I

58:40

feel delusional. I want to leave the

58:42

past in the past. I can't find

58:44

myself separating from it. Any advice and

58:46

insight would be much appreciated. I mean,

58:49

what I hear real quickly here is

58:51

it's just that again, if our conversation,

58:53

it's like this is some kind of distraction from

58:55

him. Going deeper. Going deeper,

58:57

right? There's a line

58:59

that I used in that that I

59:01

think is an interesting like caveat he

59:03

put in there, which is I've had

59:05

no physical contact, which that immediately tells

59:07

to me that he probably has digital

59:09

contact in some way. And

59:12

what you said is there's a fear of going deeper here.

59:15

These are sabotages, right? From

59:17

intimacy by having this

59:19

diffuse attention, which has arousal associated

59:22

with it, which probably there's probably

59:24

something about depth with his current

59:26

girlfriend that he's afraid of that

59:29

he then sabotages by and the

59:31

feeling, the fear gets

59:34

resolved through arousal and fantasizing instead

59:36

of actually bringing his fear to

59:38

his partner to go deeper. And

59:43

the other side of it is, and

59:45

this is, I think, the really important

59:47

part to at least move further in

59:49

it is you have to go complete

59:51

100% no contact because if your

59:54

partner says that she loves you on the

59:56

deepest level and she chooses you fully and

59:58

you're out of integrity. and you're communicating

1:00:00

with other people and you know on a

1:00:02

deep level like there is connection there, they

1:00:04

might desire more, you're out of, like you

1:00:07

know, you could tell in your body that

1:00:09

you're not operating in your value system. You

1:00:11

won't believe her because you know

1:00:13

that on a deeper level, you're actually not a

1:00:15

man of honor and

1:00:17

that type of truth can sting. But

1:00:19

I think we all know when we're out of alignment

1:00:22

with our own values and when we do that, it

1:00:25

stings man. It gets in the way

1:00:27

and blocks intimacy. First

1:00:29

off, if she found out, she'd be upset.

1:00:31

So there could be something about the mystery

1:00:34

that also creates excitement because like hey, when

1:00:36

someone tells you I'm not going anywhere, I

1:00:38

love you, I choose you fully. When we

1:00:40

don't trust someone's choice maybe because of our

1:00:42

childhood, we're like, that's kind

1:00:44

of boring. Like I kind of like

1:00:47

the chaos of uncertainty and mystery. So I'm

1:00:49

just going to shake some shit up. But

1:00:51

meanwhile, you know when you look at your

1:00:53

partner, you're not in alignment. Yeah.

1:00:55

I'm with you and it's so seeing everything

1:00:57

through your lens and my lens and just

1:00:59

even after our conversation here, just so funny.

1:01:01

It's like I'm just like, we've

1:01:03

kind of been a buzzkill here today for

1:01:06

people because it's like toxic relationships, affairs, just

1:01:08

having sex, all the things that are like people like

1:01:10

I'm having a great life. It's so fun. I'm dating

1:01:13

the married person. I'm this. We won't let people get

1:01:15

away with any of the bull things or the sad

1:01:17

serving them. Like sorry, like all your things that I

1:01:19

recognize myself in this and it's like because

1:01:22

we get our body, we get a

1:01:24

physiological response. He's probably like, you

1:01:26

know, taxing them and he gets a little high, he gets a buzz.

1:01:28

It's like his alcohol. Sure. He even said he fantasizes.

1:01:30

He fantasizes. He's getting, he is serving

1:01:32

him right now. And I

1:01:35

feel like almost all of these

1:01:37

things, the toxic relationships, the situationships,

1:01:39

the flirting, the

1:01:42

whatever is all truly just ways that we're

1:01:44

numbing ourselves. And it's almost like I don't

1:01:46

know how like, I've got some work to

1:01:49

do. But I also like how we make

1:01:51

this fun, like talking about your relationship. It's

1:01:53

like, there is some like beautiful depth and

1:01:55

love that can happen by really being

1:01:58

vulnerable. Yeah. I mean, I think that The

1:02:00

idea one, if I orient that I have

1:02:02

work to do from a place that that

1:02:04

means it's evidence that I'm broken, then I'm

1:02:06

not going to orient to growth from a

1:02:09

positive way. If it feeds self-worth issues, then

1:02:11

I'm going to resent work. I'm going to resent the

1:02:14

mirrors I get from my relationships. I

1:02:17

spent some of my 20s having great sex,

1:02:19

random sex. I'm not shaming anyone

1:02:21

for their choices. I'm just saying

1:02:23

that, hey, maybe some of the

1:02:25

things I learned through some high-risk

1:02:27

behavior, which I just happen to

1:02:29

get away with it, a lot of people

1:02:31

don't. A lot of people have massive

1:02:34

consequences to choices like that. My

1:02:36

only hope for people is never

1:02:38

to elicit shame, but

1:02:40

to actually say, if you have a deep knowing that

1:02:42

you're actually in violation of your own values and your

1:02:44

own boundaries and your own morals, which

1:02:47

is not a religious construct, but your own

1:02:49

personal construct, you're avoiding

1:02:51

grief, you're avoiding yourself, I

1:02:53

just want you to be free. I want your choices

1:02:55

to be the intention behind them, not

1:02:57

to be to avoid suffering or to

1:02:59

avoid intimacy, but to actually be in

1:03:02

an adventure, to be curious. That's

1:03:04

so possible. You can have conscious,

1:03:07

connected, loving, open,

1:03:09

beautiful sex with someone that you're

1:03:11

not in a deep monogamous relationship

1:03:13

with. I personally think

1:03:15

that the

1:03:18

deeper the commitment, the more the growth. There's

1:03:21

a saying that commitment only works if you do it.

1:03:24

I think so many of us have caveats to

1:03:26

the things we choose in our life, to our

1:03:28

own disciplines. We don't double down and go all

1:03:30

in on the things you want to be. You

1:03:34

look at the most successful people in the

1:03:36

world, and I don't mean that as a

1:03:38

metric of money, but the people we admire

1:03:40

the most who seem to have the richest

1:03:42

lives, not wealth, but life, they care about

1:03:44

their relationships. You look at the five regrets

1:03:46

of the dying from Bronnie Ware. She's a

1:03:48

palliative care nurse. Four of

1:03:50

them are relational and emotional. They're

1:03:53

like, I wish I wouldn't have worked

1:03:55

so hard as the one, but I wish I'd

1:03:57

let myself be happier. I wish I had told

1:03:59

people. people how I truly felt. They're like all

1:04:01

aligned with something like that. Why I bring that up

1:04:03

is because when you get to the

1:04:05

end of your life, which could be tomorrow, and like

1:04:09

Boskill, it's like when you get there,

1:04:11

will you be proud of how you showed up? Will

1:04:14

you have loved all out?

1:04:17

You know, and to me that's you look at

1:04:19

the research from like Harvard on the longest running

1:04:21

study on well-being, the greatest predictor of your health

1:04:24

at 80 is the quality of your relationships at

1:04:26

age 50. And not

1:04:28

just romantic, just all your relationships.

1:04:30

So like your body, inflammation, physiology,

1:04:33

all these are correlated to your

1:04:35

capacity to love and be loved

1:04:37

and create trusting, safe relationships. I

1:04:40

love it. So wise. We got to

1:04:42

do the work. This is it. I think this is a great step

1:04:45

for people after this conversation. How could they not

1:04:47

take a little bit look inward, right? It's

1:04:49

just better sex. Like at the end of the

1:04:51

day, it's better sex. Exactly. I can say that

1:04:53

it truly does because so much of sex is

1:04:55

about like the best sex we have is when

1:04:58

we are in it, when

1:05:00

we trust. Right. And when we feel unsafe,

1:05:02

it's really hard to have great sex. Truly

1:05:04

the sex that's a fulfilling sex that we're

1:05:06

gonna remember. But then I'm also thinking about whenever

1:05:08

I ask people the most memorable sex they had,

1:05:11

this might be another Boskill, they often say, Oh, that time where

1:05:13

I didn't think it was gonna happen or I met this stranger

1:05:15

on the beach or I was on vacation. But

1:05:17

then I always think like that probably was the most

1:05:19

memorable, but was it really like the most pleasurable for

1:05:21

both of you? Like I think most people probably wasn't

1:05:23

the most pleasurable, it was just memorable because it was

1:05:25

like I had the thrill to it or it had

1:05:27

the unknown. But truly like the depth

1:05:29

of connection and this kind of sex you could

1:05:31

have in a safe container and a safe relationship

1:05:33

is really I think what we all want.

1:05:36

Okay, I have to ask you the quickie questions we

1:05:38

ask all of our guys. Oh, quickie questions. Okay, quickie.

1:05:41

Biggest turn on. Like deep connective

1:05:44

intimacy. Biggest turn off. Cigarettes.

1:05:47

I don't like the smell of cigarettes. Is

1:05:49

that? Yeah. Like during sex. Oh God, it's

1:05:51

worse. What makes good sex? Safety,

1:05:54

like trust. Something

1:05:56

you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships. Oh

1:05:59

and mystery. I think sex is important to have

1:06:01

mystery. Younger self to

1:06:04

pay attention to the physiological like

1:06:06

that my penis didn't want me

1:06:08

to put myself where my heart couldn't be. What's

1:06:10

the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex?

1:06:13

I mean how powerful it is when the

1:06:15

conversations can openly happen about it. Like what

1:06:17

you facilitate I think is probably

1:06:20

the most important part of it. Thank

1:06:22

you. Thank you Mark Groves. Tell us everything.

1:06:24

Where can people find you, follow you. You

1:06:27

can find me at create the love on Instagram. I'm

1:06:29

on my podcast Mark Groves podcast which you were recently on. And

1:06:33

my book Liberated Love that I wrote with

1:06:35

my wife which is at liberated-love.com. Congratulations

1:06:38

on that. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks so much

1:06:40

for having me. That's

1:06:50

it for today's episode. See you on Tuesday.

1:06:52

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure

1:06:54

to like, subscribe and give us a review of

1:06:57

every list of the podcast and share this with a

1:06:59

friend or partner. You can

1:07:01

find me on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and

1:07:03

Twitter at sexwithemily. Oh, I've

1:07:05

been told I give really good emails. So

1:07:07

sign up at sexwithemily.com. And while

1:07:10

you're there, check out my free guides

1:07:12

and articles for more ways to prioritize

1:07:14

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1:07:16

to ask me about your sex life,

1:07:18

dating or relationships, call my hotline, 559-TALK-SEX.

1:07:22

That's 559-825-5739. I'll

1:07:27

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1:07:29

it good for you? Email

1:07:31

me. Feedback at sexwithemily.com.