0:03

We're really here to be in these bodies

0:05

and to have these experiences and to

0:07

have deep pleasure. There

0:10

is something incredibly sacred

0:12

about pleasure. Women

0:14

do not need to have an orgasm to have

0:17

procreative sex and get pregnant

0:19

and have a baby, right? Then

0:21

why do we have this capacity to

0:24

really go deep

0:27

into ourselves?

0:29

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm

0:31

Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize

0:34

your pleasure and liberate the conversation

0:36

around sex. Author Elise Lunen

0:39

has thought a lot about women and

0:41

desire. In her new book, Honor

0:43

Best Behavior, The Seven Deadly Sins

0:46

and the Price Women Pay to be Good, she

0:48

breaks down the cultural forces

0:50

that teach women to be desirable

0:53

rather than desiring and the

0:55

shame attached to a woman wanting something.

0:57

Whether it's sex, success, or

1:00

a damn slice of pizza, whether

1:02

it's lust and the way we encourage

1:04

women to police each other's sexuality

1:06

or sloth and the way women are encouraged

1:09

to be their husband's caregivers, these invisible

1:12

expectations serve none

1:14

of us. Instead, Elise talks about

1:16

ways we can liberate ourselves in ways that

1:18

improve our sex lives and beyond, how

1:20

to balance masculine and feminine energies

1:22

in relationships, how to shed sexual shame

1:25

and so much more. As Elise

1:27

says, our bodies are portals

1:30

and lust is the invitation

1:32

to enter. Intentions with Emily.

1:34

For each episode, join me in setting an intention for the show. My

1:37

intention is to help you understand the way culture constrains

1:39

desire, particularly for women. No

1:42

matter who you are, I guarantee you'll get something

1:44

out of this revealing and personal conversation

1:46

with Elise Lunen and how we can all experience

1:49

healthier, more honest, and more liberated

1:51

sexual connections. Please rate

1:53

and review Sex with Emily wherever you listen to

1:55

the show. My new articles, four

1:58

penis problems and four

1:59

ways to solve

1:59

them and what is the sexual state of

2:02

the union and why should you and your partner have

2:04

one are up on sexwithemily.com. Check

2:06

out my YouTube channel, social media, and

2:08

TikTok. It's all at sexwithemily

2:10

for more sex tips and advice. If

2:13

you want to ask me questions, leave me your questions or

2:15

message me at sexwithemily.com slash askemily

2:18

or call my hotline 559-TALK-SEX or 559-825-5739. Always

2:24

include your name, your age, where you live, and how

2:26

you listen to the show. All right. So

2:29

I know

2:29

you're going to love this episode with Lise and I hope that you

2:32

will click the link and you will buy her book because

2:34

it's going to change your life. And I actually

2:36

became connected with Lise for a

2:39

few reasons, but my book is also coming

2:41

out June 13th. And I got to be honest,

2:44

it's hard to want for things. Like

2:46

I want this book to be successful. I

2:48

want you to buy this book and change your life. I have

2:51

a hard time asking for it. I feel like I'm here

2:53

in service of you and I want you to listen to this show

2:55

and I want to help you, but I'm really, really proud

2:57

of my book, Smart Sex. It comes

3:00

into your hat little hands on June 13th. It will

3:02

be released, but you can pre-order it

3:04

now. Pre-order is the whole jam

3:06

for helping a book become a bestseller, which is

3:08

something I really, really want. Can

3:11

you imagine sex being on the bestseller

3:13

list? Lise

3:14

and I talk about how difficult it is for

3:16

women to ask for what they want. Well, that's me practicing

3:19

asking you for what I really want.

3:22

And I'm hoping you can help me. I know you're going to love

3:24

it. It's your new sex bible. Other exciting

3:26

thing where I want you to join me. Okay, I'm just going to pile

3:28

it on right now. I am doing a book tour, something

3:30

I've never done before. I'm going to be

3:33

in your city. This is just a partial list of what we

3:35

have upcoming so far, but they're

3:37

on sale now. I'm going to be doing a live

3:40

event in New York on June 13th. So

3:42

please get tickets and come see me there. We've never

3:45

met. I want to meet you in person. I'll be doing a

3:47

virtual book event, which is going to be really great, which

3:49

means you can join from anywhere on June

3:51

15th. And then San Francisco Bay

3:54

Area, come meet me in person on

3:56

June 17th. I'm so excited to

3:58

meet you face to face. It's like... Why

4:00

I do what I do is to help you and we can

4:02

also connect. I can answer your questions live

4:05

while doing photo ops. It's going to be a good time. And

4:07

also when you buy a ticket, you'll automatically get a

4:09

copy of my new book, Smart Sex, but

4:11

not to worry, we have an article live on our site

4:14

right now with all this info, which you can

4:16

also find in the show notes. Lastly,

4:19

this episode is brought to you by Yarlap.

4:21

You all know the importance of doing your kegels and

4:23

strengthening your pelvic floor, right? Our pelvic

4:25

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4:28

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4:30

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4:32

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4:35

These are essentially the muscles that are responsible for

4:37

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4:39

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4:41

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4:46

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4:48

You know, it's a small, discreet advice. I just

4:51

insert it. I lie back, I read a book, I

4:53

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and use code EMILY to save $35.

5:41

Elise Lunen is a writer, editor, and podcast

5:43

host, most known for her weekly podcast with

5:45

Cadence 13, Pulling the Thread, where

5:47

she has interviewed various cultural luminaries.

5:50

She has previously worked as the chief content

5:52

officer of Goop. And while at Goop,

5:54

Elise co-hosted the Goop podcast and

5:57

the Goop Lab on Netflix. Her first book

5:59

under her own.

5:59

the Seven Deadly Sins and the Price

6:02

Women Pay to Be Good is out now.

6:04

Lastly, I just want to notify you all that

6:07

Elise shares some of her sexual traumas in this

6:09

episode and we will put timestamps in

6:11

the show notes of that section for any of you who want to

6:13

skip ahead. And I want to thank Elise again for being

6:15

so vulnerable and sharing her story, which I

6:17

know is going to resonate with a lot of

6:20

you. She was vulnerable and just thank

6:22

you again, Elise, for coming on Sex with Emily. And

6:24

I have such admiration and respect

6:27

for Elise. Her book is truly

6:29

smart and stunning. And I think you're going

6:31

to realize in listening to this episode and

6:33

hopefully getting her book, you're going to recognize

6:35

your own behavior through the lens

6:38

of control. You'll see that there's

6:40

ways that you can maybe give

6:42

yourself permission for the first time ever to

6:45

truly experience your desire to slow

6:47

down and to live a life that

6:49

starts to work for you and not necessarily

6:52

society and those around you.

6:54

I really hope you enjoy this episode.

6:57

I'm really, really proud of you and your

6:59

book.

7:00

Your book is titled, On Our Best Behavior,

7:02

The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price

7:05

Women Hate to Be Good. And

7:08

I love that your book sheds

7:10

light on the common often hidden struggles

7:13

that women have

7:14

and all the ways that women are contorting our

7:17

lives to be good and how

7:19

it's not very, it's not

7:21

okay for us to have desires

7:23

really in any way.

7:25

We don't have permission for that. We're

7:27

not granting it to ourselves. We don't give

7:29

it to ourselves, exactly. We shame

7:31

ourselves. Other people shame us for wanting

7:33

desires, desire to rest,

7:36

to be sexual, to be sensual, to

7:39

take time for ourselves. In

7:41

your book, you use the

7:43

says in Deadly Sins as a way to demonstrate

7:46

this. So can you just run down the

7:48

Deadly Sins and how they show up in our

7:50

lives? Yes, and to make

7:52

it clear to anyone who's listening, I'm sure some people

7:55

are part of a religion

7:56

or grew up in a religious household. I did not.

8:00

So that's what makes the superstructure

8:02

of my book and the revelation of how

8:04

they all live in me so

8:07

much more eye-opening because

8:09

they're

8:10

so invisible. They

8:12

are part of culture. So they are, to remind

8:15

you, sloth, pride,

8:17

envy, greed, gluttony,

8:22

lust, and anger. And

8:25

Emily, as you know, they weren't

8:27

actually in the Bible. They

8:30

are, to quote my friend Nora, Bible fanfic.

8:33

And when I thought about

8:35

them in the context of my own life, I could

8:37

see how they had become a punch card

8:40

for what it is to be a good woman and

8:42

to deny ourselves all

8:45

of these very human instincts,

8:47

the way we slut shame ourselves

8:50

and each other, the way that

8:52

we moralize around what

8:54

we're eating. I was bad last night. I'm

8:56

gonna be good tonight. The way we prioritize

8:59

thinness, smallness,

9:01

all of these qualities of culture.

9:03

And these things show up as voices in our heads,

9:06

ways that we control and patrol

9:10

our own behavior

9:11

and think that this is just who

9:14

we are rather than who we've

9:16

been told to be. It's so clear

9:18

when you're reading your book that how programmed

9:20

we are are, we don't even see it. Because I didn't

9:22

grow up in a religious home either. And these

9:24

days we find out, you know, aren't even been in the Bible,

9:27

but you realize that they are so

9:30

pervasive and it's almost like I can't unsee

9:32

them now. And even though your book isn't necessarily

9:35

prescriptive, you sort of can't

9:37

unsee the way we

9:39

are definitely controlled and programmed.

9:41

Let's just start without

9:44

even the foreplay here. I wanna talk

9:46

about lust because I feel

9:48

more questions from people. People

9:51

trying to break their feelings of shame

9:53

and how the shame they feel around sex and

9:55

being sexual, being sensual. But you point

9:58

out first, I think you'd be kind of said this, but.

9:59

I want to hammer this home that the Bible has very

10:02

little to say about the sin of sexual pleasure

10:04

in and of itself. The idea

10:06

that sex is sinful or lust is sinful,

10:09

where does that actually even begin? Because

10:11

that might even help us deprogram it a little bit.

10:13

So we also all know the story of Adam and

10:16

Eve and the fall from paradise, which is

10:18

actually

10:19

based on an earlier Sumerian

10:22

myth about a goddess in a garden. There's

10:24

no fall. There's a snake, but

10:26

the snake is really sort of like the creative

10:29

sexual energy of

10:30

the goddess. That's typically what the snake

10:32

represents. If you look back at Genesis,

10:36

it's really about the way

10:38

I would read it is a decision on the part

10:41

of Adam and Eve to enter

10:43

the world and leave

10:46

sort of this duality, leave and come and

10:48

be mortal and learn, right?

10:50

It's about knowledge. Well, Constantine

10:53

says that it's about lust and

10:55

he specifically writes about

10:58

how there was an uncovering of

11:00

genitals and a stirring and

11:03

that that was why

11:05

Eve inspired Adam's

11:08

lust and that's why they were evicted. And

11:11

that's where we start to see sin so

11:13

wrapped up. And then there are all these

11:15

interesting translation errors, not to get all dorky

11:18

around. There's a word for sin

11:20

in Greek and word for sexual sin. And

11:22

it's like there's one letter distinction.

11:25

And so it was mistranslated many times.

11:27

It's like porneus or porous

11:30

or something like that. So we see

11:32

it start to enter consciousness

11:34

and this idea of celibacy and

11:36

this idea of virginity, which is another

11:38

translation error

11:41

where Bula

11:42

in the original Hebrew just means

11:45

young woman.

11:46

And when it was translated into Greek as

11:48

parthenos, that's when it became

11:50

virgin. But Bula had nothing

11:53

to do with sexual status, married

11:55

status. It was just a young woman.

11:58

And so as this. sort

12:00

of starts to build in

12:02

the culture, we start getting all

12:04

of this programming about our virginity

12:06

and all of it. So

12:09

basically it's all these mistranslations

12:11

and misunderstandings. And I think you say in your book,

12:13

it's like a game of telephone, essentially,

12:16

which I love. That through time,

12:18

all these mistranslations and whoever was saying

12:21

who, and it wasn't even in the Bible, but as

12:23

a result of that, women in particular

12:26

have struggled the most and had the repercussions

12:28

of feeling shame

12:31

and feeling

12:32

like it's not okay to have

12:34

desiring. So like women

12:36

are taught to be desirable, but

12:39

not desiring. Yes. Can

12:41

we talk more about that? I mean, like we

12:43

don't know what we want really either because

12:46

of this. Yeah. And

12:49

it's exactly what you said, this

12:51

idea of being desirable,

12:54

not desiring, not ever showing

12:56

our wanting, waiting to be chosen,

12:59

waiting to be picked, wait

13:01

until he calls you. And

13:04

the way that we're also taught to be sexy,

13:08

but not sexual. So the performance

13:10

of this, and we're picking up all of

13:12

these cues from culture, right? That's what

13:14

tells us how to

13:17

be quote unquote sexy.

13:19

Long before we're ever actually really

13:21

in our own bodies, understanding

13:24

how they work, figuring

13:27

out what feels good, figuring out what

13:29

we even want. All of this is a cultural

13:31

projection

13:33

that we pick up from the media, we

13:35

pick up from our friends,

13:37

we are constantly studying

13:40

and seeing what boys, men, et

13:42

cetera, women are responding to.

13:45

And then so many of us are trying it

13:47

on,

13:48

which is fine, but it becomes entirely

13:50

about a projection of sexuality

13:53

rather than being sexual.

13:54

And I was talking about this yesterday,

13:58

not to pick on, this isn't.

13:59

but I look at someone like Kim

14:02

Kardashian,

14:03

who is very sexy.

14:05

She doesn't strike me as being very

14:08

sexual. And

14:10

you think about someone like Rihanna, who

14:12

seems so sexual, like

14:14

Lizzo, so in their bodies. I

14:17

don't know, that to me is the difference, like how

14:20

embodied we are. And I, for one, have

14:22

struggled with

14:23

that for my whole life.

14:26

Again, not growing

14:28

up in a very patriarchal, shaming

14:30

family. It doesn't matter. It's

14:33

like in us. It's what we

14:35

learn from the culture. It's informed

14:37

by our own traumas.

14:39

Because that's another big component

14:42

for girls and women, which

14:46

is that

14:47

besides this horrible

14:49

idea that you need to be desirable

14:52

and not desiring,

14:55

and be passive to

14:58

the male gaze, typically, also,

15:02

you are responsible for inspiring

15:04

that male gaze and whatever it might

15:06

bring your way, right? So

15:09

we are charged as we go out into

15:11

the world

15:12

with being the babysitters

15:15

to the sexual appetite of men. And

15:17

if we inspire too much lust, Emily,

15:20

if he loses control, then

15:22

that's on us. We

15:25

are at best complicit,

15:27

at worst, to blame for

15:29

whatever is done to us because

15:31

of appearing in any way like we wanted

15:34

it or we're dressed for it or didn't

15:37

fight

15:38

it hard enough.

15:39

It's not good. It is not good.

15:43

Let's just say that. And this is where all the performative

15:45

sex comes in and people acting as

15:47

if and sort of thinking like this is what men

15:50

want or what society wants because we don't really know. And

15:52

you mentioned embodiment. You mentioned how hard

15:54

it is. But something that we both talk a lot about

15:56

is how do you actually be in your

15:59

body during sex? when so many of us, I

16:01

mean, I field questions all the time for people to

16:03

say, I'm having sex and I'm there,

16:05

but I'm not really not there. And you actually

16:07

do get really personal in your book

16:09

with something that I don't think you had ever shared

16:11

before about your disassociating

16:14

during sex, which is again, a pretty common

16:16

experience for women. And I think it was just really

16:18

brave of you to bring this up in the

16:20

book and what much have been a cathartic,

16:23

but also really difficult thing to do. And

16:25

it's a common experience for women. So maybe you can kind of share

16:28

your own, your own journey, your own story with being

16:29

embodied. No, I'd love to, particularly

16:32

if it helps people because I'm in my

16:34

early forties.

16:35

And it really wasn't

16:38

until my very late thirties

16:41

that I realized that I was

16:43

disassociating

16:44

during sex. I didn't do it all the time,

16:47

but most of the time I was kind of somewhere

16:49

else. And I was explaining

16:51

to my therapist how I'll just

16:54

sort of be spinning and spinning

16:56

and he was like, do you understand

16:59

that

16:59

that's dissociation? And

17:02

I didn't, I had no idea that that

17:04

wasn't a completely normal event.

17:08

And

17:09

can you explain more about that spinning though? Do you mean in your

17:11

head, you were sort of like, like I have

17:13

the sensation, it's like sort of a woozy

17:17

spinning. And

17:18

so you're not in the room really

17:20

kind of no, I'm not completely

17:22

like it's not like I'm hovering on the ceiling,

17:25

looking down at myself, but I am not

17:27

like having a sensorial experience.

17:30

I am, I can feel things

17:33

ish, but it's not, I'm

17:35

sort of

17:35

other, other somewhere

17:37

else. And I had

17:40

just sort of assumed I

17:42

liked having sex with my husband, it felt

17:44

intimate or tender in some ways, but

17:46

it wasn't like it wasn't what he wanted

17:49

for me. But I didn't know what that meant.

17:51

And I didn't know how to access it or what

17:54

was happening in my body. And

17:55

I knew it had a bad experience in high

17:57

school, but I didn't even know, which I'll tell you. about

18:00

in a minute. I didn't quite know how to think about that. For

18:02

my old job, we were covering psychedelics.

18:06

And so I did an MDMA

18:08

session with the therapist, actually did

18:10

three, but the first one was the most dramatic.

18:13

I didn't know what I expected. I did not actually

18:16

expect to have a therapeutic experience.

18:18

I was approaching it like a journalist

18:21

where I was figuring that that

18:23

way I could explain it or talk

18:25

about it.

18:26

And

18:28

you take two doses of MDMA

18:30

quite close together in time, although your

18:33

whole sense of time is very strange

18:35

while you're in the middle of this experience. It feels

18:37

like an hour and it's a whole day. And

18:40

you're wearing an eye shade and you're

18:42

listening to music

18:44

and

18:45

you are just deeply in yourself

18:48

and that therapist is there. They're taking notes,

18:50

but they're specifically not leading you or

18:52

guiding you at best. They're sort of asking

18:55

you to stay where you are and

18:57

observe, but they're not planting

18:59

anything. You're very mentally competent

19:02

too, I should add. So my

19:04

first sensation was this warmth

19:07

moving down my body.

19:09

And I was saying,

19:12

Oh my God,

19:13

I don't think I've ever been in my body

19:16

before. I'm like in my body.

19:18

I really feel like I'm in my body.

19:21

And that

19:23

might sound like not a big deal,

19:25

but it was the biggest, it was such

19:28

an insight for me to have this deeply

19:31

embodied experience where I could feel

19:34

everything. And

19:37

then I was sort of having experiences,

19:40

memories in this process. It took

19:42

me back to a basement of a friend of a

19:44

friend's

19:45

house. I spent a lot of time there

19:47

as a child. These were my best friends growing

19:50

up. I just had this revelation that I

19:52

had been molested by

19:54

a friend of a family friend.

19:56

And I very well remember

19:59

one incident. with this

20:01

man in public where he was inner

20:03

tubing with me at a party at the lake

20:05

and just kept getting on the inner tube with me even

20:08

though he weighed 120 pounds more than me

20:10

maybe. And the inner tube would

20:12

flip, like my body weight would fall on him and

20:15

I was just waiting for someone to say something.

20:18

I remember him from my childhood like that.

20:20

But then in this basement I was with this guy

20:22

and

20:23

I don't really know what happened Emily. Like

20:26

I don't think it was, I don't think he raped me. I

20:28

don't think it was anything that violent

20:31

or invasive.

20:33

But he made me feel,

20:35

and

20:36

this is what I've been working with in

20:38

therapy,

20:39

that I was making him lose control of himself

20:41

and that I was so intoxicating to

20:43

him that he was in love with me, that

20:47

he wanted to sort of be with me

20:50

and just having this feeling as a small

20:52

child eight or nine years old of like,

20:54

how do I make this stop?

20:56

Please make this stop. And

20:59

I realized in this re-experiencing

21:02

it, and I think he maybe like

21:05

would make me like look at him I think is what

21:07

happened. And you hadn't remembered this experience

21:09

in the past. You hadn't, it all was coming to you

21:11

through this therapeutic. Yeah. Okay. Yeah

21:14

and I don't really know. Like all the doors didn't open and I don't

21:17

feel like it's important. I didn't feel re-traumatized by

21:19

it but it was like what I got from it was enough

21:21

for me to understand

21:23

the ways in which

21:25

I have spent my life feeling like my

21:28

sexual power

21:29

or light or energy

21:32

is dangerous to me and that whatever

21:35

happens

21:35

to me is my fault. Flash

21:38

forward to high school, I

21:40

had this experience which I write about in the

21:42

book that I hadn't really allowed

21:45

myself to call a rape because

21:47

I went to a boarding school. We were away

21:49

from the school in Boston for a long weekend.

21:52

I was a new kid at the school and

21:54

this former student he had been kicked out

21:57

was stalking me throughout the day and I

21:59

kept trying to...

21:59

him and I was very

22:02

mature. I was convinced I could take care of myself

22:04

but I kept sort of looking for relief

22:07

anywhere I could find it and

22:09

long story short I go back to my hotel

22:12

room that I'm sharing with my girlfriends

22:14

and he's in that room

22:16

and everyone else is passed out and I

22:19

sort of have

22:21

this can

22:22

I make out with him and make him leave

22:25

will that be enough for him to leave me alone like what

22:27

do I do here I was a virgin so that

22:30

I don't wake up in the middle of the night and

22:32

I didn't want to be raped

22:35

and so I

22:39

sort of to make a lot a longer story short

22:41

was like okay I'll kiss him and then

22:43

he was a wrestler he's pinned

22:45

me down went down on me

22:47

and I had an orgasm and like 15 seconds

22:50

I mean I don't know 20 seconds I had

22:52

sort of a fear response orgasm and

22:54

then he left me alone

22:56

and told everyone wow

22:58

and

22:59

for a long time I took responsibility

23:02

for that encounter

23:04

and for my

23:06

own shame and that I my

23:09

body betrayed me and

23:11

that showed pleasure at a point when I was feeling

23:14

the opposite

23:15

and it took me a long time and research

23:18

once I had this revelation about

23:20

what happened to me as a child it sort

23:22

of allowed me to go back to this

23:24

and really address this core trauma

23:27

and

23:29

come to the recognition through reading

23:31

researchers that a lot of women in this situation

23:34

orgasm it's a common response it's

23:36

a common response to show arousal

23:39

they think to prevent me from getting

23:41

torn

23:45

and that I wasn't

23:48

complicit that I could call it something that it

23:50

was that something I really didn't

23:52

want

23:52

and a long process

23:55

unfortunately it's long and slow

23:58

but of re-embodying

23:59

of, you

24:02

know, I realized that it was so hard

24:04

for me, for all the reasons it's hard for any

24:06

woman to have an orgasm during sex, but

24:09

that part of it was this like, I

24:11

want to take this back. I want to take this back.

24:13

And this constant revoking of

24:16

an orgasm that he didn't deserve.

24:19

And it's funny, these things happen. And then you're

24:22

like, wow, it's been 25 years, almost 30

24:25

years. And yet I haven't dealt with

24:27

this. First off, thank you for sharing

24:29

that story because of why I think it's so important to tell.

24:32

And to share is because it's so common. It's

24:34

like one in three women have some kind of sexual

24:36

assault in their life or rape. And,

24:39

and we sometimes maybe we

24:41

repress it or we might not even remember

24:43

it. But something happened early

24:46

on where women are often like

24:48

either were shamed for touching ourselves

24:50

or something happens. You've had some extreme you have two

24:53

examples of that, two experiences

24:55

of that, that as a result of that,

24:57

now you are grown woman. And

24:59

it's having implications in

25:02

the bedroom that were not really explainable.

25:04

But as a result, you weren't able to fully

25:06

be in your desire, fully be

25:09

in your body. Of course,

25:11

that's going to lead to some shame and some disassociation.

25:14

Maybe you could talk about from there, like what

25:16

have you been able to do to kind of reengage

25:19

with

25:20

yourself and your body? Kind of work?

25:22

What does that look like? Yeah, and so

25:24

much of it,

25:25

you know, I love in your book

25:27

that you explore the masculine and the feminine

25:30

and how essential these energies are. And

25:32

they're not attached to our gender. And,

25:34

you know, the masculine is the directing

25:37

truth, order, structure, you describe

25:39

it in that

25:40

direction, but, but sort of that

25:42

general vicinity, we I write about

25:44

this too. And then the feminine

25:47

is sort of the

25:48

receptive, creative, nurturing,

25:51

caring. And I think too,

25:53

for me, so much of this has

25:56

been my response is probably

25:58

already sort of how I naturally work. But

26:01

I am so comfortable in

26:03

my masculine and structuring

26:06

things, telling people what to do, making

26:09

sure everyone gets everywhere they need to go on time,

26:11

etc. And

26:13

controlling my world, let's be

26:15

clear, tamping down and

26:17

controlling my world and

26:19

keeping myself

26:21

in a clench, which I

26:23

feel in

26:24

my pelvic floor. And that's been a big

26:27

place where I've had to really reconnect

26:30

and learn how to relax it and understand

26:32

it as a filter. Do I feel safe around

26:35

someone? Am I clenching?

26:37

Or do I feel calm,

26:39

open, receptive? So

26:41

for me, it's been this process of

26:45

trying to soften and get back

26:47

into my feminine and to let people

26:49

do things for me, including my husband,

26:52

and to receive without hyper

26:54

self-consciousness and I

26:56

love to talk about you. Well,

26:59

people will enjoy this because they've been listening to you forever,

27:02

but we're friends in real life. And

27:04

I love being with you in

27:06

public because besides being,

27:09

obviously, you're

27:10

a beautiful woman, but I have

27:12

a lot of very beautiful

27:14

female friends. And

27:17

you exude, I call it your magical vagina,

27:19

but you have just this ability

27:22

to run energy in

27:25

your body. And it's very

27:27

attractive and magnetic to the point that

27:30

80-year-old women are crossing the street to talk

27:32

to you and 20-year-old men are

27:34

running up to bring

27:37

you a coffee. No, but it transcends

27:40

sexual attraction really, but it's just

27:42

this energy that you have. And

27:45

I

27:46

think we all have that.

27:48

Some of us are better at letting it rip.

27:50

And so for me, it's also been

27:53

being conscious of that and how much I'm tamping

27:56

down and holding it at bay

27:58

and then what would happen?

27:59

if I let it up and let it go.

28:06

What does it look like? Yeah, what does that look like

28:08

in your relationships? What does it look in your life? It's

28:11

so relatable that we clench, we tamp

28:13

down, we on our pelvic floor. That's

28:15

why women also have pain or vaginismus

28:17

or they experience all this stuff because it's in this unknowingly,

28:21

when anything comes up around sexuality

28:23

or attraction or femininity, we like really have

28:25

to, we are so trained, so many

28:27

of us to lead, to do, to do, and

28:29

to get shit done and to have this purpose,

28:32

but yet at what expense, right?

28:34

And I think that's what your whole book is about. It's sort of at the expense

28:36

of us

28:39

truly leaning into our desire

28:41

and our knowing and in our intuition. Yeah,

28:46

so much of being a woman is being

28:48

told to subject your wants

28:51

to other people's needs.

28:52

And so, so much of the take back, I think

28:55

of our sexuality is reversing

28:58

it

28:58

and letting our wants come

29:01

up and articulating them and saying,

29:03

this is what I want and letting our

29:05

partners serve our needs. It's a

29:08

reverse in a way of

29:10

how we have all been conditioned

29:13

by society.

29:15

It's so hard exactly. And how do we

29:17

do that when women for so long have been like,

29:19

but I gotta take care of it, if I don't take care of all of his

29:21

needs and he's not gonna be there for me. Can

29:23

you talk about how this has sort of changed maybe? And you

29:25

do kind of write about this in your book a little bit about how

29:28

you've kind of had to learn to reframe that

29:30

in your relationship or change it up in your relationship.

29:33

Cause you are the doer. You are the one of the family

29:35

who's making the sandwiches and getting things done and getting

29:37

the kids out the door. But then

29:39

what does that do for your sexuality and

29:41

how does that, or how could anyone, even if it's you or anybody,

29:44

what's the, how do we rework

29:45

that? So one of the main

29:47

sort of,

29:49

not even a thesis statement of the book, but

29:51

like one of the things that I was grappling with

29:53

was we can look out into

29:55

culture, Emily, and see

29:58

all of the ways in which they... things

30:00

are not equitable for women, right?

30:03

And yes, we desperately need

30:05

social change. We need paid

30:08

family leave and affordable daycare,

30:11

and we need equity in boardrooms

30:13

and in government, et cetera.

30:15

And

30:17

we recognize that, and

30:19

yet we haven't made as much progress

30:21

as I think many of us feel like we

30:23

should have been able to make. And

30:26

when I was writing the book and sort of surveying

30:28

the people in my life, we love

30:30

binaries, right? We love to say, oh, it's

30:33

the men, it's men.

30:35

And then when I looked at the men in my life, I'm

30:37

like, I have two sons,

30:39

I'm married to a lovely man, I've had

30:41

many male bosses. I'm like, yes,

30:44

there are the Harvey Weinstein's in

30:46

the world, there are horrible men,

30:49

there are horrible women as well. This isn't

30:51

to say that all of this inequity isn't

30:53

real and doesn't need to be addressed. But

30:55

what I realized as I was writing this

30:58

is

30:59

that this is about our psychology,

31:02

and this is about where

31:04

we are continuing

31:06

sort of our own internalized patriarchy

31:09

or misogyny, I wanna say, which is sounds

31:12

heady, but an easy example of enforcing

31:14

this in each other is the way that women in

31:16

all the social science are as hard

31:18

on other women as men, if not harder.

31:21

You see women

31:23

policing girls about

31:26

their sexual activity as well.

31:28

Somewhat, it's hard because you're like, yes, society

31:31

is not safe, so be careful out there

31:33

without intending to sort of be like, you

31:36

look like a slut. But

31:39

in my own relationship, for

31:41

example, living with a pretty feminist

31:43

man and

31:45

feeling so upset,

31:46

I'm

31:48

the primary breadwinner, I

31:51

am a workaholic, I do more childcare,

31:54

all of this stuff. And sort

31:57

of being upset about it and slightly

31:59

resentful.

31:59

My husband might say like very

32:02

resentful. And what I realized,

32:04

what I realized

32:08

is that a

32:09

lot of it is because of

32:11

my own rush to competence and

32:14

my inability to

32:16

stop myself

32:18

from doing all the things.

32:20

So for example, I

32:22

fell off a horse last summer

32:25

and I broke my neck

32:27

and I was completely fine ultimately,

32:30

but I didn't even know that my neck was broken

32:32

for a week. I didn't go to the doctor,

32:35

which I would not recommend. If you fall off

32:37

a horse and lose consciousness and are in a

32:39

lot of pain, go to the doctor.

32:42

So you had stuff to do. You didn't have time

32:44

to get to the doctor, right? Yeah, exactly.

32:48

I was like, I'm fine. I'm fine. Yeah,

32:51

yeah. Yeah. Just my

32:53

neck. Just my neck.

32:54

We were there for a few more days. I

32:57

like continued. I packed my whole family.

33:00

We go to the airport. My

33:02

husband won't let me carry anything. I'm in

33:04

a lot of pain.

33:05

We get home.

33:07

He puts all the bags in the living room. Normally

33:09

I would rush to sort of, I hate

33:12

being packed. So I like to unpack,

33:14

do laundry, put everything away.

33:17

This is like how I like everything.

33:19

And

33:21

I was in so much pain. I just sat on the couch,

33:23

which I don't normally do. I sat on

33:25

the couch next to my kids and I just stared

33:27

at the bags

33:29

and internally was berating

33:31

myself for not doing

33:33

the laundry and getting everything unpacked.

33:36

And guess what?

33:37

I don't think it was the day we landed, but the

33:40

next day

33:41

my husband unpacked,

33:43

did all the laundry

33:45

and put everything away. I didn't ask

33:47

him. I didn't say anything. I didn't share

33:50

my own

33:51

anxiety about not having done

33:53

this myself,

33:55

but I couldn't do it. And

33:57

guess what? He did it.

33:59

This is a pattern that I've observed now

34:02

again and again that I'm conscious of it.

34:05

Instead of rushing to

34:06

do the thing in the first 10 minutes

34:09

when the teacher emails for a permission slip

34:11

for a field trip, I normally am on

34:13

it, Emily. I just get that done. You're

34:16

very on it, right? You return the text, you get on the

34:18

things. And

34:21

now if I just wait a day, my

34:23

good chance my husband has done

34:25

it.

34:27

So that's how I'm starting to...

34:30

I'm just watching myself now.

34:32

Okay. And this isn't about me saying,

34:35

sometimes I'll say, I need you to do these things.

34:38

But often I find that when I leave

34:41

a little bit of room, when I pull and

34:43

hold back my energy, it allows

34:46

him to

34:47

fill the space in ways

34:49

that it's like, oh, you do know how

34:51

to do that. And you're perfectly capable and

34:53

happy to do it.

34:54

But when I do it first and fast,

34:58

you never have the chance.

35:00

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's like

35:02

actually giving them the permission to jump

35:04

in when you're highly competent getting it all done

35:06

in your masculine. I think this is such

35:08

a great way to explain it. That it wasn't that

35:11

you necessarily, like you just kind of lean back. You're

35:13

not just rushing to fix and he

35:15

is competent. You probably enjoyed doing that

35:17

and taking care of it for the family. You gave him the

35:20

space and time to do it. And

35:22

how else do we slow down? I know you cover this

35:24

a lot in Sloth, which was so

35:27

relatable about how this productivity

35:29

culture to get shit done. I think we're

35:32

both, so many of us are like this, that

35:34

there's so much to be said to slowing down

35:38

to not going so fast too. But we just

35:40

don't feel okay with it because it's not demonstrated.

35:42

You talk about your mother in the book. I've never seen

35:44

my mother slow down. She's 80. She's

35:47

still hiking mountains. She's still doing things. She's never

35:49

sit still. Yes. And what is the cost

35:51

of that? What is the cost of the going

35:53

and the doing and the checking things off the list? And that's

35:56

how we define our worth. And I think for so

35:58

many women.

35:59

Yes, there might be an abundance of energy,

36:02

but so much of it is driven by this

36:05

invisible cattle prod, you know,

36:07

just sort of this like electrified

36:10

whip at our butts

36:12

pushing us

36:13

in ways that we don't always identify.

36:15

We just sort of have it as an internal voice

36:17

saying like, I need to do more. I'm not doing

36:19

enough. I'm not being enough to everyone.

36:23

And this, you know, I think

36:25

too, when you think about where we're at culturally

36:27

with working moms who work outside

36:30

the house as well, and this idea

36:32

of work-life balance, which

36:35

is such a fallacy

36:37

and so elusive. But our response

36:40

to that, or at least I've noticed this in myself,

36:42

and I think we promote

36:43

this behavior amongst each other because

36:46

we all feel so bad, is

36:48

that if I were really

36:50

like for example, we both have

36:53

books coming out around the same time, I'm incredibly

36:55

busy. And the more

36:57

that I'm doing for my book, the

37:00

more I feel like I should be doing

37:02

in contrast for my kids

37:04

is also ramping up

37:07

the two in my mind, like they

37:09

should be equal. So if you're going to be really

37:11

spend long hours at the office, then you better spend

37:13

extra time with your kids

37:16

instead of saying, oh, right now I'm

37:19

not that available to my kids.

37:22

And it's fine. I feel

37:24

so bad,

37:25

right? But I also love in your book that you debunk

37:27

all of these myths, like women are the most capable

37:30

ones, the kids need

37:32

the mom around. That's because like what we're

37:34

saying here, we just really haven't allowed the fathers,

37:37

the men to step up in ways. Like they're just

37:39

as capable of packing a lunchbox. They're

37:41

just as capable as being there and fulfilling the emotional

37:43

needs. But we take all of this on.

37:46

They have just as much feminine energy

37:49

as we do. I think women understand

37:51

intimately what it is to be in your masculine

37:54

and your feminine at various

37:55

times throughout the day. Men have the same

37:57

energies and yet their cultural condition.

38:00

You know, I write about how women

38:02

are conditioned for goodness and

38:04

to pursue goodness, and

38:06

men are conditioned for

38:08

power. And that's

38:11

a terrible legacy too. It requires

38:13

that you're always in your masculine, dominating,

38:16

oppressing,

38:18

ordering people around.

38:20

And I think that men

38:23

desperately need to let their

38:25

feminine come up. All dads

38:27

I know really want to be present for their kids.

38:30

It's more than just weekend sports

38:32

games.

38:33

When we're back, Elise talks about

38:35

feeling truly liberated in the bedroom

38:37

and helps me answer a listener's question about anger

38:39

affecting her dating

38:40

life. I

38:44

don't know about you, but I do not have time

38:46

to book doctor's appointments the traditional way. Don't

38:49

get me wrong, my health is important to me, but okay, I

38:51

just moved to a new part of town and

38:53

let's just say I need to go to the gyno, calling my insurance,

38:56

finding out who's in network, calling each provider's

38:59

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and make sure there aren't any horror stories. That's

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39:54

And you said here, well, there's a few things I want to go back

39:56

to, but another quote from your book was, the

39:58

reality is, I think that...

39:59

straight women don't know what they want because

40:02

they've been told that they shouldn't have any

40:04

sexual wants at all. So

40:07

basically our desire is off the chart simply

40:09

because we haven't been taught to map it. And

40:11

then you talk about Meredith Chivers famous

40:14

experiment about women being showed

40:16

these videos of primates,

40:19

men and men, women and women and how we were aroused

40:21

by everything. Can we talk about that? Meredith

40:23

Chivers did this experiment. And

40:26

I think she's run various iterations

40:28

of this,

40:30

but she took people

40:32

put them in these lazy boys with plesmographs,

40:35

which are they connect it to your genitalia

40:37

to measure arousal.

40:39

And she took all different types

40:42

of people of all different persuasions

40:44

and

40:45

showed bonobos humping,

40:48

people exercising, straight

40:50

sex, gay sex, like all of it. And

40:53

people have had sort of a field day trying

40:55

to understand and parse this research.

40:58

Everyone's desire map

41:00

to their arousal, like men weren't turned

41:02

on by the bonobos. They weren't turned on

41:05

straight men weren't turned on by gay male

41:07

sex, etc. Everyone aligned

41:10

except for straight women

41:12

who were just aroused.

41:15

And we're just aroused.

41:17

And so I guess some of the,

41:20

you know, people were like, women are just

41:22

so sexual. They're so

41:25

highly aroused at everything. And I read

41:27

that as almost

41:29

the opposite, not that we're not so sexual, but that we

41:32

have never clearly articulated

41:34

what we want in the way that I think lesbians

41:38

and non-binary people have. Like

41:40

they've really had to do the work of being like, no,

41:42

I don't want that. I actually want this. And

41:45

they're pushing against a culture that would insist

41:47

that they don't want that. And I

41:50

feel like straight women haven't

41:53

done that process of really

41:55

articulating and going there and saying,

41:58

I like that.

42:00

Not that.

42:01

I like that. Not that. And

42:05

so I read it more as like an

42:08

expression of our confusion.

42:11

And rather than an

42:13

expression of just thinking everything

42:15

is hot.

42:17

That's what I loved about this because what you

42:19

hear like with Kinsey like all women are like a

42:21

three or four like we are hot for everything

42:24

that turns us on that women are more likely to be with other

42:26

women and find other things hot. And I love

42:28

that your interpretation of is no, we just

42:30

been told that we shouldn't have any sexual

42:32

wants or desires. And so therefore we don't

42:35

really know. We're kind of open for the store

42:37

to open because we have been policed

42:39

so much. Yeah. And I

42:41

think that so much, particularly with

42:43

straight women, there's so much projection on us

42:45

of being the

42:47

subjects like anything that

42:49

happens to us again is our fault

42:51

because we wanted it in some way.

42:53

And to be raped,

42:56

particularly in the way that rape happens,

42:58

which is not sort of on a law

43:01

and order fantasy level, but in

43:03

like, it's scary. You

43:05

feel like you're going to die. You it's

43:07

not particularly arousing,

43:09

but that's very different than

43:12

this feeling of ravishment that

43:14

someone is just like, so blown

43:16

away by you. They can't, they just have to

43:18

have you not. It's, it's very

43:20

close, but it's not the same thing.

43:23

And so I think a lot of women when they struggle

43:25

or when they have those fantasies, think

43:28

like, what is wrong with me? Do I actually

43:31

want this? And

43:34

yeah, the reality is

43:36

no,

43:37

some cousin, but it's very different.

43:39

There's consent.

43:41

Yeah, I love this distinction because I think

43:43

that a lot of women also feel shame around

43:45

that, that they have this fantasy or we call it the forced

43:47

sex fantasy or the rape fantasy. But really,

43:50

it's more about ravishment about being taken

43:52

in a way that's like this person wants me so

43:55

badly. They can't help but take me because

43:57

we also for many reasons, it feels great to be

43:59

adored. and loved and worshiped

44:01

and we sort of become absolved

44:03

of any desire because we don't have

44:06

to feel the shame around it. And I also love this

44:08

insight you have in your book about like, let's create a new paradigm

44:11

for expressing that desire, that

44:13

a desire that is untethered to shame.

44:16

Right? I also write about shame and talk about

44:18

shame in my book too, because I think that shame is such

44:20

a heady stew. Like shame is

44:22

really when you think about what's keeping so

44:25

many of women from feeling

44:27

desire sexually, but otherwise, or

44:29

just for wanting, right? Is the shame

44:31

that it's not okay. Or what do you think about

44:33

naming desires out loud is so

44:36

shameful for women?

44:37

Because

44:38

we don't have forums for talking

44:41

about our lives. And I

44:43

think that so much

44:45

of the conversation about sex is so

44:48

dominated by men, male

44:50

gaze pornography, pleasing

44:53

men. So much of our early

44:55

programming is about like, how

44:58

do you be good in bed? I mean, think about cosmopolitan

45:01

for most of our adult lives. It was like,

45:03

how do you give an amazing blow

45:05

job? Like how do you,

45:07

it was all performance for his

45:10

pleasure.

45:11

And so much of our culture is

45:13

about, again, being

45:15

desirable, being in a desirable body,

45:19

making him feel like the man,

45:22

there's very little in the margins. I mean,

45:24

you're creating these conversations, but

45:26

it's still far too rare. And

45:29

we need to be having these conversations with

45:31

each other, because I think the more that you tell

45:33

your story,

45:34

the more you hear me too.

45:37

We know this. We know that then

45:38

other women are like, oh my God, I thought that

45:40

was just me. And now I feel less

45:43

alone. That's what I see your book

45:45

doing. I really do see your book

45:47

becoming part of women's groups of people.

45:49

If you have a book club, this is the

45:51

book

45:53

on our best behavior that you want to have

45:55

in your book club. Each chapter is so chock

45:57

full of all of the conditioning and strength.

48:00

They call it mate guarding.

48:02

And I don't know if any of this is even

48:04

real. It's just so

48:06

conditioned in us as how we

48:09

think about these things and talk about these things

48:11

that were threats to each other and that

48:14

will invariably, again, we assign so much

48:17

of the responsibility to

48:19

the woman. Like I was listening

48:21

to someone talk about sort of being

48:24

cheated on by her boyfriend, who

48:26

sounded like a real psychopath.

48:28

But most of her rage

48:31

was directed at this other woman who

48:33

she had found on Instagram.

48:35

She was just projecting everything onto

48:37

this like slutty whore. Most of

48:39

her rage

48:40

was directed at the other woman

48:43

instead of directing it

48:46

at the appropriate source, which is her philandering

48:49

boyfriend, her trust violating

48:51

boyfriend. And yet this

48:54

is like the cycle that we get into, which I find

48:56

really interesting, which is, you

48:58

challenge women about this

49:00

and they'll say things like, I have higher standards

49:02

for women. Like they sort of go to

49:04

that. And

49:05

it's like, no, you're just being kind

49:07

of misogynistic.

49:09

And yeah,

49:11

we'll do anything to protect the men.

49:14

Right. But still, and we don't think this is

49:16

the internalized patriarchy. And this also brings me to

49:19

envy, which I think is one of your chapters

49:21

that I've thought so much about. And

49:23

I remember hearing you talk about it

49:25

when you're on a walk and you're like, well, envy. And I was

49:27

like, yeah, you know, I'm not really a jealous

49:29

person. I don't really have a lot of envy.

49:32

I celebrate women. I love all my friends. Like

49:34

I want them to succeed. Like I can't wait for

49:36

your book to be a bestseller and change all these women's lives.

49:38

Like I really am very passionate about

49:40

Elise and her work, all the things, all the ways I do it. But

49:42

then I could just see you listening to me and that in your head, like

49:45

I knew I'm like, oh, I bet you a lot of women are saying this

49:47

to her. And then I went home and I thought about it. And then I read

49:49

your book.

49:50

And I think, could you speak more

49:52

to what that message, because I think this is just

49:54

going to bunk hit so many women, and

49:56

even people over the head, if men are willing to go there

49:59

with us.

49:59

What is this teacher that envy is

50:02

for us? We learn from our envy. My

50:04

god Envy is so essential and envy

50:06

slightly different than jealousy Jealousy

50:08

requires a third so that's when

50:10

you would say you might be in a love triangle

50:13

or someone's trying to steal your

50:15

Partner, etc. That's jealousy envy

50:18

is one-to-one. It's very intimate. It's

50:20

when someone has something that you want

50:23

for yourself and

50:24

It feels really

50:26

gross and slimy and bad

50:29

in a culture where we want to feel good but

50:32

envy

50:33

is the most Essential

50:35

information from your soul because

50:37

it again it's pointing the

50:39

light on what you want

50:42

and so I believe strongly

50:44

and

50:45

It goes to sort of women not having

50:47

a lot of practice or encouragement To examine

50:50

what they want and needing to subjugate

50:52

our wants to other people's needs

50:55

But I feel so strongly that

50:57

what's happening

50:58

in this culture I think we can all sadly recognize

51:01

of women being so hard on other women

51:04

That we suppress our envy when it comes up.

51:06

We feel so gross. We don't let it come

51:08

up so we can diagnose it we just project

51:11

it onto the the person who is

51:13

making us feel bad and

51:15

so this is when you'll hear things

51:17

like I

51:18

Just don't like her. She rubs me the wrong

51:20

way Who does

51:22

she think she is? She thinks

51:24

she's all that

51:26

and if you can interrupt that with yourself

51:29

and with your friends and say wait, wait, wait Okay,

51:32

pause.

51:33

What's she doing? Like what's the bay? What's

51:35

happening here? What is she doing?

51:38

That

51:39

is pushing on you that's pushing

51:42

on a dream that maybe you have for yourself. Is

51:44

it that her? she's so

51:48

Her career is on fire.

51:50

Is it that she's

51:53

been married to the same person for 30 years? That

51:56

her kids read on command.

51:58

Like what is it? And you'll get so

52:01

much information. And what's really,

52:04

I've done this now with so many women, like

52:07

you on that walk, where

52:09

it immediately, we immediately go to like, I love

52:11

women, hashtag women supporting women,

52:14

hashtag

52:16

where are my girls?

52:18

And we just hate it. And invariably,

52:21

I'll have this conversation with a friend, like

52:23

I was having this conversation with my friend Kate. Oh

52:26

yeah, I'm way past that. Maybe when I was

52:28

a kid and her mom, who's older

52:30

was like, yeah, you grew out of that guys. And then the

52:32

next morning, I

52:34

was at coffee and I had 17

52:37

unread text messages from my friend,

52:39

who was like, oh, this person,

52:42

they were all Westside

52:44

mothers who had their own brands

52:47

and businesses were creatively expressed.

52:49

She was like, this person drives me nuts. I

52:51

hate this person on Instagram. And I mean, it was

52:53

really funny. She was very funny, but it was

52:55

clear. She was like, I get it. I

52:58

need to do my clothing label.

53:00

I need to acknowledge

53:02

that all I want is to be a creatively

53:05

expressed mother. I get it.

53:07

It's so empowering, really, when you flip

53:09

it, when you're flipping this script. I think that that's been

53:11

a really powerful message. It's

53:14

just a way that we can all learn

53:16

from each other. And you also talk about the expanders and

53:18

how we don't have to get into that, but about how we can kind of look

53:21

at people as another teacher for us,

53:23

that all of this, that women can be a teacher. This is Lacey

53:25

Phillips. You take people who

53:27

are doing something that's like touching you,

53:29

where you're sort of

53:30

a little triggered in

53:32

a good way.

53:33

And you use them. You study them.

53:36

You support them.

53:38

Ideally, you try to engage with them. You

53:40

don't have to use, it might not be their whole life,

53:42

but you use the part of them that is doing

53:45

what you want

53:46

as a guide. And as an example of,

53:49

if she can do that, I can do that too.

53:52

And pushing against all of the scarcity

53:54

program that we have, that there's really

53:57

only room for one. There will only

53:59

be one woman.

53:59

since she has it, I can't

54:02

have it too. So pushing against

54:04

that and saying, all right,

54:06

she is modeling what's possible for

54:08

me and showing me what

54:11

I want. And maybe I don't want that part and

54:13

I don't want that part, but this part,

54:15

this is my deepest desire. Each

54:18

one of the sins, the way you break down the book, there is

54:20

just so many lessons that I hope that

54:22

people who read this will take with them and

54:24

learn to kind of undo

54:27

and rethink and kind of reprogram their

54:30

thinking around a lot of these things. So

54:32

in one part, you tell a really, really hopeful

54:34

story in your book about being in a college

54:37

dorm room with your boyfriend who loved you

54:39

and you were in a good relationship and you were able

54:42

to actually let go and feel truly

54:44

free during sex. And

54:47

you have a great line in the book.

54:49

I would love you to read the sign because I think it's

54:52

such,

54:53

there's a lot to say in this one. It's a really beautiful moving

54:55

line. Thank you. The pleasure

54:57

of women is a vortex, a

55:00

gate to a deeper experience of

55:02

surrender and awe.

55:04

This is the space I visited

55:06

back in that college dorm,

55:08

a realm I felt and saw,

55:10

a place I went.

55:13

This space has been described

55:15

as the maternal matrix, a

55:17

way to touch the divine and

55:19

the deepest impulses of life.

55:22

It is accessible to all of us.

55:26

That's just a beautiful roadmap and guide to pleasure

55:29

that I think that so many of us could

55:31

really kind of try to understand. And

55:33

can you maybe talk about sexual liberation

55:36

as a spiritual experience? Can you

55:38

elaborate maybe a bit more on that? So

55:40

it's my belief and it's

55:43

interesting when you have an experience of,

55:45

I'm sure many people who are listening have

55:47

had maybe one or two deeply

55:50

felt

55:51

spiritual experiences. I don't know if spiritual

55:53

might be a weird word, but where

55:56

you feel like you're in touch with something beyond

55:58

yourself, something unsealable.

55:59

And

56:02

I believe despite the way

56:04

that Augustine has

56:06

recast sexuality

56:08

as this base sin,

56:10

as the body, you know, we live in a culture

56:13

that is insistent that if we could just escape

56:15

this world and get to the next,

56:17

we'll be saved, right? The body is base

56:20

and gross and particularly

56:22

the bodies of women. And you can take this out to the

56:24

planet, right? We're just constantly

56:27

trying to control our mother

56:29

earth, et cetera, and just bring it all

56:32

under dominion.

56:33

And not that the reverse is true, but

56:36

that it is both that should be a transcendent

56:38

and descendant experience and that we're

56:40

really here to be in these bodies

56:43

and to have these experiences and to

56:45

have

56:46

deep pleasure. There is something

56:48

incredibly sacred about

56:50

pleasure. Women do

56:52

not need to have an orgasm to have procreative

56:55

sex and get pregnant and have a baby, right?

56:58

Then why do we have this capacity

57:00

to

57:01

really

57:03

go deep into ourselves? What

57:06

is that about? It's because we're here

57:08

to experience life

57:10

and that includes food, that

57:13

includes each other, that means

57:15

listening to our appetites and all of these

57:17

human urges and really letting

57:20

ourselves

57:21

feel.

57:23

And I think so many of us

57:25

are in such a constant state of self-denial

57:28

and always trying to control those impulses

57:31

that we're missing that miracle.

57:34

And

57:35

it's like we're walking up to a door and never

57:37

going through it. I believe in

57:39

sacred sexuality. I believe

57:42

that there is something

57:44

magical that can happen, some place

57:46

that we can go partnered or

57:48

not partnered

57:50

and that that is part of what

57:52

it is to be human, the deepest part of it. I

57:55

totally agree. And I love the way that in your

57:57

book you go through all of the ways, whether

57:59

whether it's pride or gluttony or greed,

58:02

lust, greed, anger, sloth. If

58:05

we could learn to kind of loosen the

58:07

grip, I suppose we have on all of

58:09

these areas of our life, even just little ways, like this

58:11

is going to heal all of us, but just to have the awareness

58:14

that we would much more likely to

58:16

have pleasure. Like all the ways that women

58:19

are restricting ourselves by what

58:21

we eat, by what we feel good about, by

58:23

how fast we're going in life and not slowing down,

58:25

all of those things are sort of inhibiting

58:28

our ability to have more pleasure and

58:30

to have sex like you described here,

58:32

to have that freedom like you had in that dorm room.

58:34

And I think if you make it realize

58:36

that we are sort of policing ourselves and

58:39

we kind of learn to loosen that grip, we could have so

58:41

much more of this accessible to us in

58:43

our life. So much more joy.

58:45

Yeah.

58:46

Mm. We really, we really

58:48

need that, Elise.

58:50

Thank you for expressing this. We always

58:52

have our guests help us answer a question

58:54

on the show. This is from Nina 29 in

58:56

Illinois. Hey, Dr. Emily, for the longest

58:59

time, it was my deepest shame that

59:01

I had never had any kind of intimate relationship

59:03

until last year. Since I was a kid,

59:06

I felt a kind of angry feminist aggression

59:08

towards men that put up a wall between me and

59:10

any guy I interact with socially. I was

59:13

sure that if he showed any interest in me, it was because

59:15

he thought I was a quick screw and if he

59:17

showed no interest in me, it was because he didn't

59:19

want to have sex with me. I recently met a guy online

59:21

who I liked, wanted to have sex with and

59:24

be friends with. For the last stretch of

59:26

the relationship, he was only asking me

59:28

out for booty calls where I would give him a blow job

59:30

or a hand job. I had unknowingly become

59:32

an object myself and I broke

59:34

up with this guy after about seven months. It

59:37

was my first intimate relationship, first breakup,

59:39

and I'm getting angrier and angrier. I

59:41

tried online dating again and every profile

59:44

I viewed brought up anger and sadness.

59:46

I consistently wondered if these guys were just looking

59:48

to hook up, if they had good relationships with

59:50

their mothers, if they had female friends, or

59:53

if they could ever be my friend. I fail

59:55

as a casual hookup, but it feels like that's

59:57

all there is because of this perception. I

1:00:00

can't imagine ever trusting a guy. How

1:00:02

can I begin a friendship with a guy that could evolve

1:00:05

into something more? If I'm constantly

1:00:07

thinking he only values me for sex

1:00:09

and is manipulating me, how do you set

1:00:12

aside anger or suspicion

1:00:14

that all guys only value women

1:00:16

for sex? Yeah.

1:00:19

Ooh, do you wanna go first or do you want me to go

1:00:21

first? First off, I wanna say that

1:00:24

Nina, amazing that she has this knowing,

1:00:26

like what a journey she's gone on, right?

1:00:29

That she's had this aggression since she

1:00:31

was a kid. She met a guy in line and I think that

1:00:33

she's got some anger and some stuff that

1:00:35

she has to work through. I think reading the book could really

1:00:37

help her have more compassion with herself.

1:00:40

And a result of that maybe have more compassion

1:00:43

towards men. But also I

1:00:45

think from my recommendation is also having these conversations

1:00:48

early on with guys.

1:00:49

Like there should be no pressure to give blow jobs or hand

1:00:51

jobs, but get to know somebody. Give the

1:00:53

next guy you go out with the permission and

1:00:55

the opportunity to show you maybe who he is. Maybe

1:00:58

women hasn't really talked to him about it in a way that he

1:01:00

could really express what he wants and desires

1:01:02

before making it sexual. Yeah, that's

1:01:04

what I feel. What do you think Elise? I mean, I

1:01:07

think there's so much going on in that that's really

1:01:09

beautiful. It's obviously heavy

1:01:11

baggage that she's carrying. And

1:01:14

we wanna try and address all of our unprocessed

1:01:16

emotional

1:01:20

baggage as much as possible before we bring

1:01:22

it into any relationship. So I feel

1:01:25

like

1:01:26

there's work she needs to do with herself before

1:01:29

she's going to feel safe,

1:01:31

comfortable and open. Sort of going to what

1:01:33

we were talking about, like running that energy

1:01:36

of openness and magnetism where

1:01:39

I feel like she is in

1:01:42

her body. So there's work that needs to be done. And

1:01:44

she mentioned her anger. And anger

1:01:46

is so important

1:01:49

because anger,

1:01:52

which is, and she also mentioned

1:01:54

aggression. And so this is where girls

1:01:57

just get such a raw.

1:01:59

bargain. So aggression is

1:02:02

very human. It's present

1:02:04

in boys and girls. And

1:02:07

yet we condition our children

1:02:09

differently around this. So for boys,

1:02:12

it's definitely considered

1:02:14

natural and normal and we allow

1:02:16

them to express it physically, verbally

1:02:18

on the playground, right? They punch, they yell,

1:02:21

boys will be boys.

1:02:23

This is

1:02:24

unacceptable behavior for girls. We expect

1:02:26

more from them. We don't think

1:02:28

that they should be aggressive. We think

1:02:30

that they should be docile.

1:02:32

And again, these are cultural conditions

1:02:35

that we

1:02:35

then show each other how girls should be,

1:02:38

right? This is what we're modeling for each other as well.

1:02:40

And so girls aggression

1:02:42

goes covert and underground.

1:02:45

And that's why we see whispering,

1:02:47

bullying, whisper

1:02:50

networks, social exclusion,

1:02:53

etc. None of us have been taught

1:02:55

how to have proper conflict, healthy

1:02:58

conflict. And conflict is

1:03:00

so essential for a healthy

1:03:03

relationship. And so what I

1:03:05

hear her expressing in her unprocessed,

1:03:08

unmet anger is that she has needs

1:03:11

and she feels

1:03:13

like very clear even if she can't articulate

1:03:15

it, what her needs are and what her boundaries

1:03:18

are.

1:03:19

And she needs to begin

1:03:21

by actually defining that to herself

1:03:23

and then articulating it to potential

1:03:26

partners. And we don't do

1:03:28

this

1:03:29

because of fear of relationship loss.

1:03:32

We worry if I say

1:03:34

to my husband, babe,

1:03:36

this is what I need. This

1:03:38

is a deal breaker.

1:03:39

You need to meet this. I'm angry

1:03:42

because I'm needing this thing from you that

1:03:44

he'll say, oh, well then I'll just find someone

1:03:47

easier. I don't

1:03:48

need this,

1:03:50

right? That's our greatest fear often.

1:03:53

And so being unlovable

1:03:55

and abandoned, unlovable and abandoned. And

1:03:57

so I think for her,

1:03:59

into a relationship and saying,

1:04:02

yeah,

1:04:03

I don't do this. This is what I need to feel safe.

1:04:06

This is what I need to do. I would need

1:04:08

companionship and comfort and

1:04:11

I'm not your booty call. It's hard,

1:04:14

but it's like, it's so hard.

1:04:16

Someone will meet her there.

1:04:17

It might take a while. I was single for most

1:04:20

of my twenties, but it's so much better to

1:04:22

be in no relationship than in the wrong

1:04:24

relationship. Exactly. And if we learn

1:04:26

to express this and to learn how to have healthy

1:04:29

conflict, I mean, I read the chapter on anger too. I don't

1:04:31

have a lot of experience with anger, at least consciously.

1:04:33

I know my mother always had that too. She's like, I don't get angry.

1:04:36

It's like, that is just so dangerous

1:04:38

towards women. She even told me she went

1:04:40

back into therapy. I remember she's like in like air 50s.

1:04:43

I remember telling me this, I didn't really get it because

1:04:46

she doesn't feel anger. And I realized, oh, guess

1:04:47

what, mom, I don't really experience a lot of anger either.

1:04:50

So it's something I'm still working on.

1:04:52

Yeah. We have

1:04:54

five quickie questions. We ask all of our guests,

1:04:57

don't overthink it, this is the first thing that comes to your head. It

1:04:59

could be like one word answers here. And then we're gonna get

1:05:01

into how people can find you and follow you

1:05:04

and love you. Okay. What's your biggest

1:05:06

turn on?

1:05:07

Oh my God. Look at this. I've written

1:05:09

a book and I'm still stuck. Let me think for one

1:05:11

second. My biggest turn on.

1:05:14

Could be like eyes, compliments or. Yeah,

1:05:16

I think it's like a flirtatious

1:05:18

touch in the presence of other people

1:05:21

that they might not know about.

1:05:23

Ooh, what's your biggest turn off?

1:05:25

Being humped on the leg, dry humped on the leg.

1:05:29

Just follow me throughout high school and college.

1:05:31

Exactly.