0:04

So to start off the episode, Pam, I've got to

0:08

revisit this from one of the masterminds that

0:10

I just had last night. And

0:13

we got off on the thread of

0:16

should your spouse be your best friend? Okay.

0:19

So it's revisiting from way back. An

0:22

article, I actually wrote this article in 2011 and

0:25

I know we've maybe touched on it at times throughout

0:28

the shows. But

0:30

it's worth the revisit because I think there's this element

0:33

of, but I just, they're my best friend. And

0:35

if I remember right, when you first wrote this article

0:37

way back then, I just had the hardest

0:40

time with it. Yep. Do you

0:42

remember what you had a hard time with though? Why can't

0:44

he be my best friend? Why

0:47

not? Right? We're in

0:49

the same house all the time. We love being together. What's wrong

0:52

with that? What's wrong with calling

0:54

your spouse your best friend? Well, and

0:57

I, that's an absolutely fair question

0:59

because I think that's what we all

1:01

strive for. It's what

1:03

we all want. But I also don't think we understand the cost of

1:06

if that, if we attain that,

1:09

because most of the time this whole

1:11

conversation is framed in the idea

1:13

of

1:14

exclusivity

1:17

rather than multiple relationships

1:19

in the village mindset that rounds

1:21

out the entirety of my life.

1:24

And sometimes there are people that think of their

1:26

bestie

1:28

as they're the soul of the

1:31

existence in that kind of capacity.

1:34

So it depends on each individual's

1:36

definition of a best friend and how they

1:38

go about doing life and how they go

1:40

about the relationship.

1:42

And what they look for from

1:44

each other. Because this is, there's

1:47

a quote I came across

1:49

that was in that article

1:51

that was wrote from Elizabeth

1:54

Gilbert

1:55

and she's, she has a book called A Skeptic

1:57

Makes Peace with Marriage. Its

2:01

modern Americans bring to their marriages the most overstuffed

2:04

bundle of expectations the institution

2:06

has ever seen. We expect that

2:08

our partner will not merely be a decent person,

2:11

but will also be our soulmate, our best friend,

2:13

our intellectual companion, our greatest sexual

2:15

partner, and life's complete inspiration.

2:18

Nobody in human history has ever asked this much

2:20

of a companion. It's a lot to ask of

2:22

one mere mortal and the inevitable disappointments

2:25

that follow such giant expectations can

2:27

cripple marriages.

2:30

So

2:31

that one's about expectations. It

2:34

is, but it also is one of those that

2:36

is recognizing we

2:39

need multiple systems in our life

2:42

to create a vibrant life. And

2:45

far too often what we can do in this conversation

2:47

the way I think about it is I place too much on

2:49

my marriage to provide that vibrant

2:51

life rather than

2:54

I also need to be creating my own

2:56

vibrant life.

2:58

Creating my own, having a community,

3:00

we talk a lot about that we

3:02

were given relationship for

3:06

a purpose. It's not good for us to be alone,

3:08

right? And that can be one

3:11

on one, but typically that can be

3:13

overwhelming for the other, right? Community

3:15

gives us variety,

3:18

it gives us other points of view,

3:21

it gives us all kinds of

3:23

avenues. And to be clear,

3:24

I really believe friendship is a vital

3:26

part of a relationship in a marriage.

3:29

There needs to be a friendship level and

3:32

a friendly level that you enjoy each other's company.

3:35

I just think what happens is we get caught

3:37

in the scenario of I'm looking for

3:40

you to replace

3:42

what a hairy leg dude should replace

3:44

in my life. They are the confidant

3:47

that truly is in my corner, calls

3:50

out the incongruencies

3:52

and the blind spots because

3:55

it comes different from you than it would

3:57

from him and then vice versa. There's

3:59

that element of. I think a lot of times what

4:01

a wife can look for in a husband is

4:03

they want him to be a girlfriend with a penis

4:07

When it's like that's not the role he plays sometimes

4:09

and it's like no you need to take that's a girlfriend thing

4:11

Go go with the girls and wrestle

4:14

with that because there's a different energy

4:16

that's needed to create a vibrant

4:19

sex life And

4:21

friendships a part of that but it's not the entirety

4:23

of it because there needs to be that discrepancy

4:26

and difference between us and How

4:28

we exist so the Esther Perel talks about the space

4:30

between this is where the eroticism Lands.

4:34

Yeah, and so there's and

4:36

I think it's an interesting thought conversation.

4:38

Do you find that if you're talking

4:41

with? Females you get

4:43

a different answer to that question than you do

4:45

if you're talking to males.

4:47

Yes a little bit mainly

4:50

for our conversations When

4:53

we talked about this in the mastermind group a

4:55

couple of the guys are like, oh that makes complete sense I

4:58

thought okay, I've

5:00

seen where I've kind of hovered too much or

5:04

Looked for friendship level things

5:06

and hoping that that would turn into something and

5:08

when I would actually turn away from and create

5:10

my own orbit of life

5:13

She would start seeking me out differently. There

5:15

was a Distance between us that

5:17

she would try to bridge rather

5:19

than me kind of hanging around Like

5:22

friends would trying to always create a bridge

5:24

right and and also one of the biggest issues

5:26

This is this thing. We just wrote I just

5:29

posted on the website passionately

5:31

married net and it's also on the platform of how

5:34

to break free from monotony or you have

5:36

you has your marriage lost passion and some of that

5:38

is because the Inordinate

5:41

amount of meaningless time we

5:43

spend together in marriage Okay,

5:46

which is sometimes what friends do

5:50

You just hang with each other and that's

5:52

a great comfortable thing Say

5:55

comfortable, but there's a cost to it sometimes

5:57

because you lose some of that tension It's

6:00

the sexual nature of us as people.

6:04

And so there's, it's, I can see that some of

6:06

this is just to help frame where we're heading

6:09

today in the show. Okay.

6:11

Because what I want to do with our, with our conversation,

6:14

the whole overarching idea is, what

6:17

if I married the wrong person? Because

6:20

some of the component is we're

6:22

just not friends or we're

6:25

only friends. We're not lovers or,

6:27

you know, there's, okay. There's a, there's

6:29

a different way to frame all of this. And

6:32

as we get into that conversation, which is the

6:35

extended content, a quick

6:37

tease for everybody out there. So passionatelymarried.net

6:39

forward slash Academy is how you can join

6:42

us with longer content and no ads.

6:45

How we're going to frame this also is why

6:47

do people get married? If we've

6:49

got friendships going on, why do we get married?

6:53

What do people look for? Oh, that's interesting.

6:55

I mean, I'm at this point, I mean, probably totally

6:57

off the beaten path of what you're

6:59

going for, but so many people aren't getting married these

7:01

days. Research and statistics

7:04

are showing there is a shift in this, that

7:06

people are waiting a lot longer to get married. If

7:08

they do get married, cohabitation is, is up

7:11

higher than it's been in history,

7:14

but marriage is still a vital and important institution.

7:17

Well you and I both agree with that. Well, and people still,

7:20

people in general still agree with it too. But

7:23

it's recognizing there's a

7:26

concept that's at play that's

7:28

important to the society,

7:32

but it's also what's

7:34

going on with people on why we seek it,

7:36

why we don't, what are we looking for in it?

7:39

What do we not find? You know, which then begs

7:42

the question a lot of times of what if it's

7:44

the wrong person? So all that's coming up

7:46

on today's show. So

7:53

here's to help frame this, this is an email

7:55

that came in, Pam, that just says, Hey, Corey and Pam, I found

7:57

your podcast about a year ago. Thank

7:59

you guys. a great job helping

8:01

frame relationship dynamics and

8:04

this is now my favorite podcast. Well,

8:06

thank you for that. I've been married to my wife

8:08

for just over 18 years now and for

8:10

most of that time due to, due

8:13

largely to the struggles and the ups and downs

8:15

that we experience, I've wondered if I may

8:17

be married the wrong person. Is

8:20

this possible? Are there people

8:22

out there that we are more compatible with than others?

8:25

So thanks for shedding any light on this that you

8:27

can sign a little lost. So

8:33

I don't want to answer the first question with that of did

8:35

I marry the wrong person yet? I

8:37

think that'll be an interesting thought exercise

8:40

and conversation with you, but

8:42

I do want to start with

8:45

what is it that makes us, why

8:48

do we choose marriage as people? What

8:50

do you think most people are looking for when

8:52

it comes to life partner in

8:55

marriage?

8:56

I mean, my immediate

9:00

canned response to that would be someone to grow old with,

9:02

right? A companion. Yep.

9:04

I think companionship is definitely part

9:07

of it, the security of

9:09

companionship and creating a

9:12

life together. That's

9:14

definitely one. I mean, it's

9:17

what

9:17

we've seen modeled.

9:19

Society has been built on it for history.

9:22

Well, I mean, it's

9:25

part of creating an established

9:27

society, right? You

9:30

have relationships, you have a family unit,

9:32

you

9:34

have kids together, you create experiences

9:37

together. This

9:39

is all part of just building something

9:44

with someone else that you enjoy being

9:46

with.

9:48

Yeah. That's an exciting prospect in

9:50

my mind. Yeah. And what's so

9:52

interesting is if you go back in time,

9:55

marriage at first, as far

9:57

as in the West here in America, I mean...

10:00

But even in biblical times, and

10:02

then all the way in between, marriage

10:05

was an economic institution for

10:07

partnership for life. It was a way

10:09

people survived. If

10:12

you can marry your kids off, now

10:15

all of a sudden that's the two or better than one mantra,

10:19

and they will create a family of their own. And

10:21

if you go back into the agrarian society that

10:23

we used to have, you had kids because you

10:25

needed the workers. So

10:28

having kids wasn't necessarily as much

10:30

about, I just want to have people that I

10:32

can love and be around and enjoy great

10:34

things with. Some of it's like, I need people out there in

10:36

the field and help and make things happen.

10:39

And this is what's

10:41

changed as our world has become

10:43

more and more comfortable and industrialized

10:46

and automated. Now

10:48

all of a sudden, rather than us just

10:50

merely working to try to survive,

10:55

I've got a whole lot more time on my hands, which

10:57

means the energy that used to be

11:01

required to survive is now placed elsewhere.

11:05

Well, that's going to take us

11:07

down a whole

11:08

different turn of thought.

11:09

Because I'm thinking of all these expectations I

11:11

put on someone else in my

11:13

family, spouse, in particular,

11:15

because they'll fill roles.

11:17

Was there a point in time when there

11:21

just wasn't as much time

11:23

for those kind of expectations to be said? It

11:25

was just about survival. Right. The expectations

11:28

could have still been there, but it was more around

11:30

the context of where we

11:32

existed and what was required.

11:35

And this is one of those things just as

11:38

the thought. I came across

11:40

an article that went viral

11:43

on Google, or I don't remember

11:45

where I found it, but it was a millennial

11:49

or a Gen Z. I'm not sure which one,

11:51

but she's now out of college and she's working

11:54

a nine to five and she's

11:56

recognized how tired she is and

11:58

how she does not have time. that she wishes

12:01

she had for a personal life and

12:03

we're reading that and I'm telling you about it I'm like yeah

12:06

welcome to adulting right most

12:08

of our audience is gonna be like yeah welcome

12:11

to life it's a job you commute back

12:13

and forth yeah yeah and to top

12:15

it off she has to commute for like an hour each

12:18

way and it's like yeah that's

12:21

the way the world lives and exists

12:24

and it doesn't conform to what it is you like

12:26

or want I mean that

12:28

most of the time the world doesn't care yeah

12:31

I mean you can create something different but

12:33

a lot of times you've got to put in the grunt

12:35

work to get where you need to go

12:37

right and and it's

12:40

a wake-up call for a lot of

12:43

folks these days

12:45

yeah that you you do have to put

12:47

in some good work yeah and and that's

12:49

part of I think what what surprises

12:52

people when it comes to marriage and

12:55

to committed relationships and then particularly

12:57

marriage of wait

12:59

it's not as easy as ideally

13:01

I thought it would be it's not as romantic

13:04

as I thought it would be you

13:06

know I this is no I just make

13:09

up these statistics to make sense of it

13:11

but I tell guys in the masterminds

13:13

and the couples they get caught in this

13:15

idealized where

13:17

did the romance go what's the struggle with

13:20

with this and what you know this isn't working the

13:22

way I wish it was and and

13:25

and being able to see it as 90% of our

13:30

day

13:31

is spent in the drudgery of just

13:34

living and existing and surviving

13:37

paying bills finding

13:40

food you know making food taking

13:42

care of kids yeah schedules taking

13:44

care of the day-to-day household that is

13:46

created together and then the 10% are

13:49

those things we we love that make us

13:52

alive that has passion involved or

13:54

enjoyment or downtime or whatever

13:56

it is that adds that extra cherry on

13:58

top icing on the cake Mm-hmm to

14:00

marriage so the 90 or to life so the 90%

14:03

is actually existing to help us

14:05

do the 10% Okay,

14:08

and sometimes if we can frame it as we

14:11

have but I want it to be 50 50 where 50% of my time

14:13

is spent Surviving

14:15

and then I get 50% you know, there

14:17

are people that actually create lives that do that Well,

14:20

there are

14:20

well so much that goes back to the perspective

14:24

that 90% of my life I can

14:27

be an Eeyore and Complain

14:30

about that 90% of my life or I can

14:32

choose to enjoy that part of my life,

14:35

right? Right. Okay. I can be thankful

14:37

that well, I'm paying bills But thank goodness

14:39

I can at least have money in the bank to pay these

14:42

bills Right and and so much of that

14:44

is a perspective

14:47

And Why

14:50

does that 90% have to be

14:53

framed by the word drudgery well

14:55

and

14:56

Because a lot of it I think is We

14:59

also get caught up in the way society

15:01

has because all of these are factors that

15:03

impact marriage And this is what

15:05

I'm starting to see with some of the younger

15:08

couples I work with

15:09

as though that more so with the younger couples

15:11

Or

15:11

is it really across the board service,

15:14

but I think it's across the board. So I think you and I

15:16

can fight this Sure as

15:18

well. I know I can I know early

15:20

on when I started the blogging world in the podcasting

15:23

world And there was this tension between us because you're

15:25

like, how long you gonna put your time into

15:27

this that's free You're giving away all

15:29

this stuff. Yeah, you need to knock it

15:31

off and get it. Make it a serious money You

15:34

know, that's not what you're saying, but that's kind of what you were saying.

15:36

Oh, that's flat out what I was saying Yeah,

15:39

but it's like I think this will pay off. It's worth investing

15:42

and seeing and that's a lot of

15:44

time putting into it, but

15:47

what I've recognized is there's

15:50

been this thread in society

15:52

of follow your passion Everybody

15:55

gets a trophy, you know

15:58

all of that kind of framework that kids

16:00

were raised up in, we weren't

16:03

necessarily raised in that. But

16:05

shortly after us, that's when it started shifting

16:09

because it might break people's spirit inside

16:11

jokes between Pam and I on something. But

16:14

it's that element of seeing

16:16

that dilemma then gets

16:19

projected onto a relationship

16:22

of this should have been easier.

16:26

This shouldn't be as hard as it is. Why

16:28

do I have to work so hard? With something that used

16:30

to be so easy because every relationship started

16:32

easy because if a relationship started easy, it's not lasting.

16:35

Well don't you think that comes with

16:38

wisdom,

16:40

right? With time and

16:42

wisdom and realizing throughout

16:45

life that the good things come with

16:47

something you have

16:48

to work for? Yeah. So the

16:50

things that we value the most are the things we have to work for.

16:53

Yeah and

16:55

I don't realize that until

16:58

I had to work for something. I

17:01

mean I think that there are the blessed few

17:03

that realize that before they have

17:06

to go through the struggles. But most

17:08

of us have to

17:11

go through it to realize the sweetness

17:13

of the struggle.

17:14

Yeah and I think some

17:16

of this to help understand why we choose

17:18

marriage to go back to that

17:22

also helps make us we need to understand and ask

17:24

ourselves our bigger questions of how

17:26

do I orient towards living? What

17:28

does life mean to me? Right

17:31

and this is a quote from Esther Perel that

17:33

says marriage was an economic institution

17:35

in which we were in which you were given a

17:37

partnership for life in terms of children and social

17:40

status and succession and companionship

17:42

which that's some of the things we touched on. Yeah.

17:45

But now we want a partner to still give us all these things but

17:47

in addition I want you to be my best

17:49

friend, my trusted confidant, my passionate

17:51

lover to boot and we live twice as

17:54

long. This is a factor.

17:57

Ah that's fair. That's fair. That's

17:59

fair.

17:59

So we come to one person and we basically

18:02

are asking them to give us what was once an

18:04

entire village used to provide.

18:07

Give me belonging, identity, continuity,

18:10

transcendence, and mystery and all

18:12

and all, all in one. Give

18:15

me comfort, give me edge, give me novelty,

18:17

give me familiarity, give me predictability, and

18:19

give me surprise. I mean, that's

18:21

what we kind of think because

18:24

we've lived in a more sensationalized world

18:27

based on what we are indoctrinated

18:29

and bombarded with. And then how

18:32

does that translate into what life really

18:34

is on life terms? And there's

18:36

a big gap sometimes because

18:39

then you start recognizing, man, I have really

18:41

put a lot of idealization

18:44

on my relationship

18:46

and what family life means and

18:49

what raising kids mean. And this

18:52

is where on the

18:55

parenting topic, because part of why we

18:57

get married is to have a family and

18:59

to keep the family going and to have generations.

19:03

That is a component and to have companionship

19:06

that comes along with kids at

19:09

the various stages and relationships that you get

19:11

to create as they evolve and then they have

19:13

their own family and on and on it goes. But

19:17

when you talk about this context of how we even

19:19

idealize parenting, one

19:22

of my professors, my advisor actually said,

19:25

if you want to ask yourself if you're a successful

19:27

parent, because we want so

19:30

much for our children a lot of times,

19:32

just like we want so much for our spouse maybe.

19:35

You ask yourself one question. When

19:37

they're grown and out of your house, that one question

19:40

is, are they taxpayers? Because

19:42

if they are, you did a good job. Are

19:45

they out working? Are they self-sufficient?

19:48

As a believer, I would also add

19:50

to that, are

19:52

they Christian? Are they loving the Lord? Agreed.

19:55

But that context right there and that value,

19:58

because we

19:58

want our... We want our kids

20:01

to live our values, but

20:04

that is caught more than taught. And

20:07

so the biggest issue there is, am I living

20:10

what I'm hoping they will choose rather

20:13

than pounding it into them? Because

20:16

there's a difference. And this also then spins

20:19

towards relationship, towards marriage, of

20:22

I want certain things from my spouse,

20:25

but am I living it to encourage

20:27

it or am I demanding it? Because

20:32

I think there's things on when I

20:34

look at marriage, I think

20:37

a lot of times people want it to solve all

20:39

of the ills of life like loneliness

20:44

or

20:45

fears or

20:49

all the different things that we face.

20:52

No, it's not a big solution. Certainly

20:56

I can't expect it.

20:59

You get the loneliness topic.

21:02

How many times have we talked about this that you

21:04

can be in the home together,

21:07

sitting on the couch together, whatever, and

21:09

be as lonely

21:10

with

21:11

them sitting there as if they weren't there?

21:13

And if you have a biblical worldview, loneliness

21:16

was a pre-fall condition. Adam

21:18

was lonely. And so Eve

21:21

was created after Adam named all of the

21:23

animals, which scholars think that

21:25

was years of daily work. You

21:28

talk about drudgery. It's

21:30

like the world's first assembly factory line.

21:33

Like, here they come and he's just naming them. This

21:36

one looks cool. What

21:38

letter am I on now? Three

21:40

years in and I'm on the letter E. Okay. So

21:44

this is a couple of things I came across from

21:47

Mark Manson that he's

21:49

got terrible reasons to get married.

21:52

He gets some terrible reasons to get married and

21:55

one is to solve your relationship problems.

21:57

Okay. Right. And also a terrible

21:59

reason to have a child. Yes, it is.

22:02

Right. Number two, because

22:04

you're afraid of being alone. Yeah.

22:07

Which, that's true because there's a lot of undercurrent

22:10

if that's the big motivation you have to

22:12

prove something. This one's an interesting

22:15

one. Prove something. Right. What

22:17

are you supposed to be proven by getting married? Well, there's

22:20

this element of, well, the clock

22:22

is ticking, so I can prove that

22:25

I'm marriable, I'm worth

22:27

it, and so I settle or I rush.

22:30

There's a value that I

22:33

need to prove

22:35

what I'm capable of because there's an

22:38

undercurrent because most of the couples

22:40

I come across, when we can get really

22:42

down into it, they

22:45

discover they didn't get married for the

22:47

reasons they thought they got married. Some

22:50

of them are like, no, it's because they were safe.

22:53

You look at their history and it makes sense. Interesting.

22:57

Uh-huh, they were. They were going to be consistent. You

22:59

could count on them. You could rely on them,

23:03

but the cost of that meant you didn't get some

23:05

of the energy or some of the volatility

23:07

or some of that, which actually adds some flair and

23:10

some energy to life and marriage.

23:13

They're realizing this

23:14

years later when they're sitting with you. Right.

23:17

Or they've realized it and that's what helped them come back to

23:20

working. The

23:22

reason number four is because it's practical.

23:27

This is just what he's talking about because

23:30

some of this is more societally driven.

23:34

It's almost going back towards the arrangement

23:37

that marriage used to be. Because

23:40

used to, we would get cows for

23:42

Sydney and then

23:45

have to pay those cows for whoever will marry. Right,

23:48

right. We would arrange that. Sometimes

23:50

I'm okay with, can we pick out? A

23:53

little dowry going. But

23:57

there's an element of recognizing.

24:58

He

26:00

said they're just over 18 years, which

26:03

that's when marriage really starts getting different

26:07

Because intimacy takes a long time to

26:09

really rear its the head to the depths

26:11

that it is Yeah, because you're

26:14

exposed more on who you are

26:16

as well as who they are Mm-hmm, and

26:19

then you start figuring out why do these not

26:21

align like I thought they would

26:23

or I think they should Okay, so

26:27

so it's interesting to think of all

26:30

of this sets the stage on Why

26:34

did I get married? Because

26:36

I think that then helps me answer the question

26:40

is there the right person? Or

26:43

is did I marry the wrong person? So

26:46

if you're not a member of the academy or

26:48

the extended content, you're gonna want to go to passionately

26:51

married net forward slash Academy To

26:53

hear more of that conversation So

26:55

we started the episode with

26:58

a quote from Elizabeth Gilbert on What

27:01

the expectations we put into marriage? Mm-hmm, and

27:04

I'm gonna end it with another

27:06

quote from her same book Okay, and

27:08

this just says her quote goes marriage

27:11

is those 2,000 indistinguishable

27:13

conversations Chatted over 2,000 indistinguishable

27:17

breakfasts or intimacy turns

27:19

like a slow wheel. I love that

27:21

phrase How do

27:23

you measure the worth of becoming that

27:25

familiar to somebody so utterly

27:27

well-known so thoroughly ever-present

27:29

that you become almost invisible an almost

27:32

invisible necessity like air because

27:35

I think there's this evolution of

27:38

what marriage creates Where

27:40

I become so intertwined in their

27:43

life, but I don't lose myself

27:45

in the intertwining of it That's what creates

27:48

the energy But we still

27:50

want that intertwining That's

27:53

intimacy. Mm-hmm. That's the structure

27:55

of what marriage and relationships are designed

27:58

to do And I love

28:00

the idea of intimacy turns

28:02

like a slow wheel. And

28:06

if I can look at that, I think that helps frame

28:09

all of the little things that we do

28:11

that help build that

28:13

and also get in the way of that. And

28:16

small little tweaks can maybe make all the

28:18

difference in the world. Well,

28:21

if we left something undone, let us know 214-702-9565 or

28:25

feedback at passionatelymarried.net. Transcripts

28:29

are available for the regular versions

28:31

on each of the episodes pages. So

28:33

find the episode page transcripts there at the bottom,

28:36

as well as advertiser deals and discount codes. So

28:38

please consider supporting those who support the show.

28:41

Please. I

28:44

don't know why I just said please there. Thanks

28:48

again for taking a little bit of time out of your day

28:50

to spend it with us and we'll see

28:53

you next time.

28:57

Transcription by ESO. Translation by —