0:04

[inaudible]

0:04

Hi and welcome back to the shaman toast podcast.

0:08

My name is Allie Ady and today I'm chatting

0:10

with Abigail Forsyth . The cofounder

0:12

of keep cup. Most of

0:14

you will already know about this brand, but

0:17

for those of you who don't keep cup is a global

0:19

movement that helps divert millions

0:21

of disposable coffee cups from landfill every

0:23

single day. And it all started

0:25

in our hometown of Melbourne. And

0:28

this chat, we talk about the early days of Kit-Kat,

0:30

how Abigail and her brother scaled the business

0:32

globally, the challenges they faced

0:34

, designing and manufacturing lessons

0:36

learned along the way and how to inspire

0:39

a global movement. If

0:42

you want to learn from more women in business, just like

0:44

Abigail, then definitely check out

0:46

shaman tours.com day . All our

0:48

members take part in the mentor hour

0:50

each month and are constantly

0:52

exchanging skills, wisdom, and knowledge.

0:56

Alright , let's dive into the interview. Lovely

1:06

to have you on the Shane Mantle's podcast. Nicest.

1:08

Thank you, Allie . Yay. We're

1:11

really excited about interfering as I was just saying our

1:13

fair . Um , all of our members are super excited

1:15

to hear the origin story of Kate kerf and

1:17

obviously high scale globally as well

1:20

before we launch into all those questions. So I literally

1:22

got like such a long list.

1:25

So we might be here today. Do you want to tell people just

1:27

a bit about yourself and your background before

1:30

Kiko ? Yeah, sure. So , um, yeah,

1:33

I am a , I guess I'm a lawyer

1:35

made good. So I studied law

1:37

, um, worked in a really small

1:39

little law firm with a fantastic , um

1:42

, team. And I guess I realized

1:44

there that my skill was probably

1:47

not in the, like my best

1:49

advice was always walk away and find

1:51

a commercial solution. So I just guess I

1:53

had that sort of attitude.

1:55

And then my brother was working in England and

1:57

he would call me up every week with a new business

1:59

idea. And one day he said, I've seen

2:02

[inaudible] , um, why don't we do that? And

2:04

I was like, well, you know, I'm a good cook. I

2:06

like people. How hard can it be

2:09

found out? It was super hard. And it was in

2:11

that business , um, that

2:14

we store the rise and rise of the disposable

2:16

cup realized they weren't recyclable

2:18

and thought this is, you know , this is a

2:20

waste crisis. What are we going to do about it? And

2:23

from there we manufacture

2:25

keep cuff and I think, you know,

2:28

yeah , it was just, it's just one solving one problem

2:30

after another and seeing, seeing a problem

2:32

that you're passionate about solving, I guess. Yeah,

2:35

definitely. So you had a cafe in Melbourne.

2:38

We had seeks yeah. Sex . And

2:41

so how long were you doing that before you sort

2:43

of pivoted 10 years. 10

2:46

years? Yeah. And what were you saying? Like

2:48

obviously no one had feasible caps . Like

2:50

what was it that kind of triggered you?

2:52

Well, when we started, so it was in the

2:54

late nineties, it was when disposable

2:57

cups were starting

2:59

come onto the market. And I remember people

3:01

saying, Oh, I don't want to drink out of a disposable

3:04

carpet . It's not a nice experience. You

3:06

know, I feel like a baby drinking out of a sippy

3:08

cup and then 10 years later

3:10

and we're doing it and we don't even think twice about

3:12

it. So, you know, to be there when

3:15

you see something new that people

3:17

struggle with and then see it become

3:19

commonplace is sort of a, a

3:21

good perspective to think, well, there must

3:23

be another way to do this. Like it's those

3:26

cultural norms. And I always, when

3:28

, um , you know, I'd thought about it for

3:30

a long time and , and, you know, before

3:33

I started the business, I had a baby had

3:35

my first daughter best and I read

3:37

Jared Diamond's collapse. And

3:39

it's about how different cultures

3:42

have collapsed on

3:44

earth, the Mayans, the Easter

3:46

Island, the Greenlanders, and often

3:48

it's about cultural norms that we think

3:51

we can't change and

3:54

it ends up, you know, collapsing

3:56

our society. And you can see that happening

3:58

now. We've got cultural norms around convenience

4:01

that we think are, you know, can't

4:04

change. And actually they have to, if we're

4:06

to survive as a species. Absolutely.

4:10

I think that's why it's so inspiring what you've done.

4:12

And I think when you first kind of were

4:14

thinking about the idea, did you

4:16

have any idea how it would cry

4:18

? Like I,

4:21

you know, I w I, you know, as I sort of had

4:24

a baby , um, I , I was

4:26

passionate about the sustainability part

4:28

of it. And , um , my brother said,

4:30

you know , I was doing with my brother, Jamie, and he's like, Oh,

4:32

you know, you can make, you know, $150,000

4:35

a year. That will be enough for you to, you know

4:37

, keep it growing. And I thought I'd be able to do

4:39

it at home from the garage. Like

4:42

I had no idea and really didn't and

4:44

the interest didn't really have the aspiration

4:47

to turn it into anything global either. I

4:49

just was doing

4:51

my thing. So good

4:53

. Say like, how did it all start? So you had

4:55

the idea and then did you have to kind

4:57

of, well , obviously design the

4:59

concept pitcher . Got it made.

5:02

I think I had a , you know, we had a really

5:05

clear idea of what we wanted the product to be.

5:07

So we wanted it to sort of look

5:10

and feel like a disposable cups

5:12

that didn't have to be a big , um , transition

5:15

for PayPal . Like it sort of

5:17

would feel similar and I wanted it to be something

5:19

that you could carry , um

5:21

, not conspicuously. Like you could

5:23

just do it without, I

5:25

felt like there was a gap where people,

5:27

you know, in the late nineties, if

5:29

you, or the early two thousands, if you wanted

5:32

to be green and sustainable, you had to be

5:34

a green aid and you had to sort

5:36

of transform your whole lifestyle.

5:38

Whereas the problem is so immense

5:40

that we need everyone doing something, and it doesn't

5:43

matter if, you know, we're all hypocrites in

5:45

this. So , um, that

5:48

was part of it. I'm sort of digressing

5:50

a bit. And then , um,

5:53

yeah, so then we had it designed

5:55

that it's really fun process. And then you go to

5:57

manufacturing and then the rubber hits the road. Like

5:59

it's not sealing it's

6:01

how do you get it to work? Who's

6:04

going to pack it, like all those op you

6:06

know , has the back end going to work, how are going

6:09

to , um, you know, when we first sold,

6:11

keep cup , we sold it the first

6:13

or one of our first orders was to campus

6:15

coffee in Sydney. And they, they

6:17

bought 10,000 and we sent it to

6:19

them, our shadow. Now we sent it to them in bits.

6:22

Cause we're like, well, we're sustainable. So you don't, you can't

6:24

put it in a box. So we just send

6:26

all these bits and people had to assemble them,

6:29

tell them they got them out of the box

6:35

When it says that, did you like who designed

6:37

it for you?

6:38

So , um, we ha we work with

6:40

a firm called cobalt and we still

6:42

work with them today. So they , um , helped

6:44

us with the design.

6:46

Yeah . Yeah. And then how many kinds of iterations

6:48

of the design did it take you to kind of get

6:50

to the standard that it is now,

6:52

or is

6:53

Evolving? I think it keeps evolving.

6:55

So it keeps evolving around materials

6:57

around longevity around. So,

6:59

you know, initially the really tricky

7:02

part of the product design is the lead. So

7:04

initially it just had to fit to plastic and

7:06

plastic can be manufactured

7:08

really precisely. So

7:10

, um, then we had to get the lid

7:12

to fit to glass, which is really

7:15

, um, imprecise, like, you know,

7:17

every glass that you have has a

7:19

, a slight [inaudible] to it. So

7:21

fitting that , um, and now we're trying

7:23

to get it to fit to steel . So which

7:26

again has it has different , um,

7:29

issues around how the tolerances work

7:31

there. So it's it's yeah.

7:33

It's the process.

7:35

And then, so what was the reaction

7:37

when you first kind of took this to market? So did you start,

7:40

you said you had the first order from Sydney, which

7:42

was 10,000. Yeah .

7:42

Which is a huge first order. Yeah.

7:46

So , um, when

7:48

we first got the design, like I wanted to

7:50

manufacture it locally. So we went around to local

7:52

manufacturers or one guy said, you know,

7:54

this is just a cup , basically,

7:58

what are you thinking? And he said, I've seen lots

8:00

of great designs fail because people

8:02

couldn't sell the idea. They couldn't

8:04

sell what , what it was. So go

8:06

around and try and sell it in . If you can't sell

8:08

it don't even bother manufacturing it. Um

8:11

, and it was great advice. So

8:13

because we own those cafes blue bag, we

8:15

did a lot of catering through them. So I called

8:17

every company that we sold

8:20

catering to and tried and pitched

8:22

K-cup . Um, and from there, we got an

8:24

order from the national Australia bank and

8:26

from energy Australia. Um,

8:29

so that was before we even finished

8:31

the , so we knew we had a market there . Um

8:34

, and then the story of that campus

8:36

is pretty funny actually. Cause we did some

8:38

design markets and immediately,

8:41

you know , in truth immediately, there was an audience

8:43

for cake cups . So people were saying, this

8:46

is my idea. You've stolen it. Or,

8:48

you know, I've been thinking about this problem,

8:50

thank goodness someone's done something about it.

8:52

So there was immediately or , um,

8:55

when you got the design, right? Cause people were saying, I don't

8:57

even know what it is, but I , I love like, I

8:59

like it a lot . I want it I'm

9:01

attracted to it as the design object. Um,

9:04

but then we did a design market

9:06

in Sydney and a girl said to me, look, I'd , I'd

9:08

love to carry one of these. I think it's the right thing to do,

9:10

but I drink campus coffee and they're way too

9:13

cool for, for this

9:15

product. And then it

9:17

wasn't even asked like then we'll young

9:19

from campus called a week later and said, I've

9:21

been looking for a product like this for a decade. I

9:24

want to buy 10,000. So like, you know,

9:26

and , and that was a real light bulb moment for us.

9:28

And so we're like, you know, if you

9:30

get the people who are, who

9:33

are the cool people in coffee and

9:35

today like keep cup, then you're going

9:37

to be able to see that that's the unlocks,

9:40

the permission for people to reuse.

9:43

It's finding those people who are the people

9:46

who are going to unlock this behavior change

9:48

or because a lot of people said

9:50

would, you know, I did talks in the early

9:52

days and people would come up to me and say, look, I've

9:54

got one, but I'm just too embarrassed to take it into

9:57

the coffee shop. Like I , I don't want to interrupt

9:59

the barista. I don't want to, you

10:01

know, I don't want to make

10:04

a fast basically. So it took a few,

10:06

it took a lot of brave people , not brave, but

10:09

the glut of people to go in there and go, I want

10:11

this, I want you to feel this. And then, you

10:13

know, if you think about it, the barista sees those

10:15

disposable cups every single day. They're

10:18

the one using thousands of them. So,

10:20

you know, I remember going into a cafe and the guy goes,

10:22

Oh , cool. Keep cup. I'm like, that's what you

10:24

want. Like, that's going to create that behavior

10:26

change. Yeah.

10:28

That's so fascinating. And how long was it

10:30

from sort of idea to conception

10:32

and then selling? It was it we're talking like years.

10:34

Are we talking about cheese

10:37

? Yeah . Yeah. I mean, that's, that's an

10:39

amazing achievement in two years to go from like

10:41

idea to sort of, you know, the first

10:43

order of 10,000 cups. And then

10:45

how did it sort of grow from there?

10:48

Like, you know, you had that first order then them , were

10:50

you thinking about like manufacturing,

10:52

you know, on a global scale or did

10:55

that kind of happen organically?

10:57

That has happened organically? I'd say my brother was probably

10:59

the more , um, I

11:02

guess ambitious of the two of us in how it might

11:04

work globally. And I've got two brothers

11:06

and the other brother , um , was traveling

11:09

in the UK at the time. And , um , we just kind of

11:11

thought of , you know, just do

11:13

it over there. It's going well in Australia, it'll go

11:15

well in the UK, which of course was

11:17

not true because,

11:19

you know, in the UK at the time 80%

11:21

of the coffee industry was

11:23

big chains, whereas in Australia it was different.

11:26

So we've got, you know , our heartlands always

11:28

been the independent coffee scene. Um

11:31

,

11:31

I was just about to say that because obviously I'm from the UK.

11:34

Yeah .

11:34

And coffee's just, what just, wasn't a thing. Like

11:36

it was

11:37

Always to Starbucks and those kind of

11:39

massive store chains. And I was really curious

11:41

about that to say, like, what was that reaction,

11:43

you know, when you took it to the UK and the U S where

11:45

they don't have the Melbourne coffee scene?

11:48

Well, I mean, we've just had to find those

11:50

little independence once again and drive

11:52

it from there because it's always, you

11:55

know, we're, we've been in McDonald's for

11:57

a long time, but that was driven by customers.

11:59

No one else it was customers who said, Oh,

12:02

can you fill my reusable cup?

12:04

Why don't you have a reusable cup? And

12:07

then they would try and get him some, you know,

12:09

no brand one. And I go, no, we actually

12:11

want Pete cup . And I think , um,

12:14

the other sort of sacred source we've always

12:16

had is because we, you

12:19

know, you, you do things

12:23

there's gotta be that balance of doing

12:25

something sustainably and then doing

12:28

it because you love it. And , um,

12:30

I tell the story about my grandma. Um

12:32

, she had this like quite revolting

12:35

looking ceramic mug that was chipped

12:37

and it was all stained Brown. And,

12:39

you know , um, I

12:41

say, got her a new

12:44

one for Christmas and she never used

12:46

it. She kept using that old , old

12:50

cheap plan. And it's like, well , you , you use the things

12:53

you love and enjoy using. So we had

12:55

to, you know , through the color, through

12:57

the design and through creating

12:59

a really strong association

13:01

with good coffee and cake up , we've

13:03

been able to, you know, we want to

13:05

, um , McDonald's to purchase, keep

13:07

cup, to be more sustainable. But I think they probably

13:10

one of the main drivers was , um,

13:14

help them build a reputation around good coffee. Like

13:16

it's, it's the connection with keep cup and good coffee

13:19

is, is a big part of being a big

13:21

part of our success. I

13:23

think those brand collaborations or partnerships

13:25

that are so important, as he said, what were their

13:28

kind of other big collaborations you

13:30

had early on that sort of helped you

13:32

your growth , um , will

13:34

CA can pass? Um, I

13:36

think in the UK it was probably brick by

13:38

brick, the small coffee chains. Um,

13:42

and I think, you know, the , the other adventure

13:45

Cape cup is it's one time I met

13:47

some guy, a guy to trade show, and I was telling

13:49

him about how, you know, with Kate copy , you

13:51

tell a story because someone sees you in

13:53

the coffee queue and says, what's

13:55

that? And they say, keep cup. And he

13:57

said, ah , it's called brand in hand, I'm

13:59

from Coke. And I was like, Oh ,

14:03

Okay .

14:04

That's what it is. Right . And so you,

14:06

if you can embed their

14:08

story , like the storytelling of your product, and

14:11

then people see it and ask a question

14:13

and hopefully you're the person

14:15

carrying, keep cup can tell, you can

14:17

tell the person why they're using it. And

14:20

that inspires change. Isn't it funny now how

14:22

it's flipped, but I actually feel

14:24

embarrassed if I forget my cake cart and

14:26

I walked down the street with a disposable

14:29

coffee cup, I actually feel a bit like, Oh God,

14:32

I'm being judged. Like, why have I forgotten that ? Like

14:35

lately flipped

14:36

Excellent.

14:38

Used to be that you'd see someone walking down the street and you'd

14:40

like, they'd have to keep having, there'd be a bit of a

14:42

, a nod. Whereas now

14:44

it's like, if you say dispose of copy , you're like, what

14:46

are you doing? Like get with the program.

14:50

So I'm still curious about the sort of

14:52

global scaling did you, what

14:54

was the strategy behind it? Did he think this

14:56

is a good market? So I go for this country

14:59

first , or should I like, how did you figure that out?

15:02

I look , um , the

15:04

, the first, that first market we did

15:07

in 2009

15:09

, um, there was a blogger

15:11

from a partner therapy in LA

15:13

blog and they blogged about cake

15:16

cup that weekend. And we, because we'd

15:18

set up our website , um,

15:21

to be global, we got seven orders from

15:23

America that first weekend that we

15:25

, we launched the product that was accomplished

15:27

. And it probably cost us

15:30

more to send those cups

15:32

than it did. You know, we felt we made

15:34

no money out of it, but we always took

15:36

the approach that we will service demand

15:38

wherever, wherever it is in the world

15:40

, um, to sort of grow

15:43

the brand and the business that way.

15:45

And so I guess, I think we just really followed

15:47

those leads. We did a lot of trade shows

15:50

in those early years. And from that,

15:52

we got a lot of interest from distributors

15:55

and probably learn a few lessons, you know, like

15:57

, um, we had a

15:59

distributor in Japan who placed

16:01

a really big order, but then they were

16:03

probably too big for us because they didn't

16:06

really want to service that sort of the

16:08

cool coffee community in Japan. I didn't

16:11

want to sell one at a time. They wanted to sell them in

16:13

cases. So it's about, I guess,

16:15

matching the distributor, you know,

16:17

distributors will only pick, they'll

16:19

go for the low lying fruit. So you

16:21

have to be really well aligned to them naturally

16:24

in order to get that takeout . Otherwise

16:27

you're asking them to sort of step outside

16:29

their own business model to sell your product.

16:32

So we learned a few lessons there. Um,

16:36

yeah. So , and

16:38

then were you kind of like having to sort of guide companies

16:40

and pitch or where you kind of relying on

16:43

word of mouth at this point? Oh, no.

16:45

I was pitching, pitching my heart out with

16:49

that . Cause I find that like a lot of my

16:51

experience is that a lot of people

16:54

aren't comfortable with necessarily the sales

16:57

part of it. I have a business, if

16:59

you're passionate about something, you can talk about it and that's great

17:01

then like closing a deal, negotiating like

17:03

a lot of the women in my community, struggled with

17:05

that a little bit. I

17:08

don't know. I, I

17:11

always quite enjoyed it, passionate

17:14

about the product, sell the product and you

17:16

know, I've always told us team, like it's not

17:18

a hard sell. Like if people are, you

17:20

know, we're a sustainable business, there's

17:22

no point forcing the product on someone.

17:25

If they're not going to use it, like, I

17:27

don't want you to sell someone 60

17:29

cups when, you know, they can only sell 20

17:32

within a sort of a selling

17:34

cycle. So, you know, we've always

17:36

been very soft in that approach and it's

17:39

worked pretty well for us. Like, it's

17:41

gotta be, it's gotta be a win, win.

17:43

Like if , if the customer

17:45

can't sell them through or that

17:47

their audiences engage it, then

17:49

we haven't waive

17:52

and done what we're supposed to be doing, which is reducing,

17:55

you know , reducing impact. So it's

17:57

sort of all, it all ties into that .

17:59

Yeah. And I read somewhere that your , one

18:01

of your taglines with them purpose before profit.

18:04

I love that. Yeah.

18:06

I think that's great. I think the shaman antis values align

18:08

closely with that because it is about being more

18:10

than just a profitable business. It is

18:12

about driving change and then inspiring

18:14

that kind of global movement. And it's, I think

18:17

it's really inspiring that you kind of started the journey and you

18:19

were like, I had no idea how this was going to

18:21

go do it .

18:24

When I think about, she meant I'm like, I'm still

18:26

learning. Like, you know, it's

18:29

yeah . It's that attitude of like, I've

18:31

still got so much to learn about what I'm doing.

18:34

Yeah. It's a constant learning process. I think

18:37

that's why, that's why it's nice to talk to you. And

18:39

so those early days in the struggle it's like, what

18:41

would you say were your biggest struggle ? You said you had a

18:43

baby as well. Um

18:46

, which obviously adds a whole new

18:48

level of element to the mix. Yeah

18:51

. How was that?

18:52

Oh, look, I think the struggles probably

18:55

the struggles have always been the same. I think in

18:57

the early days when I had a young baby and I

18:59

thought I need to get in someone who knows more

19:02

than me to run the business and

19:04

that didn't work out too well because you know,

19:06

no one's as passionate about the business

19:08

as I am. So I know it

19:11

. So there's always that confidence trick and

19:13

you know, you need to surround

19:15

yourself with people sometimes who know more than

19:17

you, but then there's bits of the business that

19:19

no one will let , and then as the

19:21

business grows, you have so much

19:23

history of what's happened before,

19:26

but it's, you know, then it's about trying to get

19:28

that out, you know? And

19:30

so, you know, the brand guidelines

19:33

used to be, I like it, or I don't, and

19:35

now I've had to sort of articulate, well, what

19:38

is it that I like? And I don't, how can someone else

19:40

possibly create

19:42

that into a decision making process rather

19:44

than a gut feel? So, yeah.

19:48

And it's, so it's that balance of getting people

19:50

who can do what you need to be done, but

19:52

also say, well

19:55

, see that idea you've had, I'm going to make

19:57

it even better than you thought it could be. Yeah.

20:01

Came gray . Did you just bring on

20:03

a couple of people at the start? And it's like,

20:05

how many people do you have now?

20:07

Uh, um, the way it grew

20:09

was my dad used to have , um,

20:11

he had his own business selling , um , computer

20:14

consumables. So like, you

20:16

know, computer ribbons when they were like this

20:18

big and you'd wind them on.

20:21

Um, and then he sold his business when

20:24

I, and I was , um , the lawyer

20:26

who sold it, like in the legal team when he sold

20:28

it, which was really nice. But anyway, so

20:30

the business started and dad's

20:33

like, Oh my God, you've got a tiger by the tail.

20:35

So he pulled , he called up

20:37

his old crew . So , um

20:39

, that sales , uh , sales manager, Mara

20:41

, your Mooney is still our sales manager. And

20:44

she worked with my dad and was

20:46

my brother's basketball. Um,

20:48

and then our warehouse manager

20:50

, Steve , um, who

20:52

else did he pull in ? Oh , and Sue , who

20:54

does our book? So, you know, he, he

20:56

helped put, pull , he pulled his old team

20:59

back together. And then from blue bag,

21:01

we had , um , quite a few people who came

21:03

with us where we sold blue bag once

21:05

keep cup took off. And then a lot of people jumped

21:08

with us, but backyard

21:10

cafe. Yup . Yeah. Yeah.

21:12

So it was people you knew that you built the team with.

21:15

Yeah , yeah, yeah. And then new people

21:17

along the way, but yeah, it made all the difference

21:21

because the hiring people is such a tricky

21:23

one. Yeah . It's so

21:25

hard. And I've been, have you ever read that

21:27

book by Verne Harnish scaling up

21:30

really amazing. Like he talks a lot about all of this,

21:32

but it's like, you spaced at

21:34

like hire people who are like completely

21:37

different to you. So he phases it like

21:39

a bunch of weirdos who can do all

21:41

the jobs that you hate, but they felt

21:44

like it gives that managy , but

21:47

it drains my energy. So like, you hire all these people

21:49

who are like, love it, their element of

21:51

the business. Um, and then it talks

21:53

about like topgrading people when you

21:55

interview them, instead of having this sucks , be all good

21:57

interview where you're like, Oh, I really liked her. She was

21:59

amazing. I think she'd be a great fit. You

22:02

actually like top grade the interview

22:04

, uh , based on their skills and you take out

22:06

the whole like emotional connection out of

22:08

it. It's fascinating because

22:10

I am someone who would definitely hire

22:12

people. I love around me. And

22:15

it's just, I'm just at this point now in my business where

22:17

I'm kind of thinking about scaling and bringing

22:19

on more people.

22:21

Yeah. I think I'm not sure that's

22:24

okay .

22:24

Yeah. That wouldn't probably be my experience

22:27

of it. Cause you also

22:29

need people who can hold you to

22:31

account. So you need people

22:33

who and the people , and they've got

22:35

to be people that you trust. So

22:37

if someone's got a completely different idea

22:40

of what good business looks like, and they

22:42

say to me, that's not a good idea. I'm

22:44

going to go, I don't care. Whereas if

22:46

someone who I highly regard

22:48

and trust and they go, what are you doing?

22:50

You're going to stop and go, actually,

22:53

I'm going to rethink that. So there's a bit,

22:55

I think there's a place for that, but there's

22:57

, you've got to have people that you really,

23:00

that share your values and that you can

23:02

rely on when you sort of start to drift off

23:04

course a bit to go, Hey, is that really

23:06

what you want to be doing? Yeah, definitely.

23:09

I think that's , um, that's important

23:11

to me to have a tailor made that , you know,

23:13

love, she mentors and love the vision . Unfortunately,

23:15

I do have that, but I think when you start growing

23:18

a business, like how many people do you have now in your

23:20

business? Do you mean pre COVID or

23:22

post COVID? So well,

23:25

we were at a hundred and I think we'll

23:27

end up being about 35. Oh

23:29

, I'm sorry

23:31

to hear that. Yeah, yeah. That's

23:34

right . Yeah. It's

23:37

just the way it, the way it goes down , I think,

23:39

you know, keep, cup's done a great job of

23:42

, um , establishing a brand category

23:44

of reusable and now there's a truck

23:46

ton of competitors in that it's a highly

23:49

competitive space. So how

23:51

have you dealt with like the copycats and all of

23:53

that, you know , other brands that

23:55

sort of put forward replica, you

23:58

know, part of

24:00

it is, you know, a bit of , um,

24:05

bonhomie to say, great, you're expanding the category.

24:07

You're you're driving reuse. Awesome.

24:10

Part of it is, Oh my God, you've just copied exactly

24:12

what we've done, how boring , um,

24:14

some of them we've had to take on some of them we

24:17

just ignore. Yeah . So it's a combination.

24:20

And also, I guess it's when people , you know, we've

24:22

worked really hard to build a really

24:24

strong, ethical supply chain and when people

24:26

are trading off that supply chain, but don't

24:29

have those credentials that,

24:31

you know, that's a bit annoying, definitely

24:37

some way or another that, you know. Um,

24:39

but I think that trademarking and competitors

24:42

and copycats has , um, tricky

24:44

woman needs grabbing , especially with the product. Yeah.

24:48

So I haven't talked to me about coronavirus. How

24:50

has it impacted ? Cause I mean, I've seen people

24:53

just completely abandoned K-cup when,

24:55

when actually we can still use them

24:58

now it's this whole thing of like, I, I feel

25:00

as if I take my cake cut to a cafe that

25:02

they're going to judge me for bringing like eight cup

25:04

now, because they think that's got more gems on it. Then

25:08

I think the science has debunked this whole

25:10

idea of surface transmission. And

25:12

I think the surface transmission study,

25:15

I think if you track it back, it's going to have come from

25:17

the big plastics lobby trying to stop

25:20

single use bag bans. Um,

25:23

so yeah, I think that

25:25

we're going where we will continue

25:27

to really push hard on that banning of single use

25:29

now. So I think there's a real opportunity for

25:32

us to open up that advocacy

25:34

at a bit harder and talk

25:37

and talk to back to bands on single

25:39

use products. I think quite the Queensland government's just

25:41

put forward some proposed

25:43

legislation about that, which is fantastic. Um,

25:47

but you know, it's just the difficulty of our

25:49

it's one. I think

25:51

there's probably a glut of single

25:54

use, sorry of reusable cups

25:56

on the market, just with the volume

25:58

of competitors that were coming out, just

26:01

pre COVID too.

26:03

You know, a lot of the cafes will not

26:05

survive. I mean, cafes, you know, I

26:07

know from working there, the margins

26:09

are super, super tight. I don't know how

26:11

it must be incredibly stressful for

26:14

them at this time. Um , so

26:16

I don't think there's, some of them will not make it

26:18

through this , um, period

26:21

, um, retail as

26:23

well. Like that's gonna struggle. So there's

26:25

lots of changes that are

26:27

, um, I

26:29

don't know , in some ways that they could

26:31

be positive changes for the environment

26:33

and for if we can get our act together

26:35

about what a green recovery looks like, as opposed

26:38

to just turning back on the fossil

26:40

fuel and the guests tab . Um,

26:42

so I see some positives in it as well. It's just,

26:46

it's just changes. Yeah.

26:48

Just how do you think you'll kind of evolve

26:50

over the next sort of couple of years, bearing

26:52

in mind with just had this crisis and

26:55

we'll continue to,

26:57

Oh , look, we've got some new

26:59

alternative to single use products

27:01

in the pipeline that we'll really release

27:03

probably early next year. So

27:05

that's quite exciting. And just, I guess

27:08

it's just enabled us to look

27:11

up . So yeah, when the, when

27:14

we were adjusted about to sign a new

27:16

lease in the U S when the pandemic

27:18

hit, like my hand was on the

27:21

sign thing and , um,

27:23

when it happened, I was just like, this is , this is

27:25

going to get too hard and America's going to get

27:27

ugly. So we just shut that office

27:29

down right . Bright back in February. So,

27:32

you know, there was some sadness about that because

27:34

we'd been in there for seven years.

27:38

Um, you know, and it's probably the , it's,

27:40

what's our most challenging market. But

27:43

then for me personally, like, you

27:45

know, when you've got a business that's

27:48

not doing as well as it could be in the staff

27:50

aren't doing as well as they could be. It's always a

27:52

bit of a sick feeling in your stomach that

27:54

you could be doing it better and that

27:57

feeling's gone. So

28:00

, you know , there's some, there's

28:02

some silver linings for me

28:04

personally, about it as well. Like what

28:06

am I here? You know , I guess we've all asked

28:08

ourselves in this time, what am I here for?

28:10

What am I doing? How do I

28:12

want to live my life? And do I really

28:14

want to be sort of struggling

28:17

away with this U S office? And

28:19

, um, yeah, when it's,

28:21

you know, it's not working for me professionally

28:23

or personally, so yeah. It's

28:26

funny how

28:26

These things do have a way of, I

28:29

don't know , redirecting a slightly. Yeah

28:31

. Yeah. And I think it's good to listen

28:33

to that gut feeling and think actually it

28:35

wasn't quite right. Um , there's

28:37

a reason for that.

28:39

Well, yeah. I mean, it was, I guess it provided

28:41

me with the opportunity to make that very

28:43

decisive move was

28:46

the U S

28:48

Cause you're in 65 countries. Aren't you?

28:50

Yeah. With the U S

28:52

Do you say that was your toughest market or toughest

28:54

challenge?

28:55

Yeah, it was the toughest challenge for me

28:57

personally in like , um,

29:00

I think because my brother started the U

29:02

K office, there's a bit of a cultural,

29:05

I don't know I was born in Scotland, so there's a bit

29:07

of a, yeah, there's a bit of a cultural

29:10

connection there with the UK and

29:12

the UK team, whereas America

29:14

is a different based altogether and

29:16

, um, yeah,

29:18

I guess I struggled to manage the team

29:20

well and struggled to

29:22

get the right people into the business. So

29:26

yeah,

29:26

Yeah. Really difficult as well . I think with

29:28

the time difference with , um, being

29:31

in Australia, I think it's just really difficult.

29:33

Like I was in the UK and , um , working

29:35

with some people in the U S um,

29:37

and that was okay. But then

29:39

if you're here trying to work with the UK

29:41

and the U S it just, it's just

29:44

really difficult. Yeah. Although

29:46

I will say like that , the other thing about

29:48

this lockdown is in the pandemic has been

29:50

that, you know, we've

29:53

have become more of a global team with the UK.

29:55

So because all the meetings are about

29:57

it's it's, you know , whereas it felt like,

30:00

you know, there'd be all these people in a room and then one

30:02

person in, or two people in the UK office,

30:04

whereas now everyone's remote. So

30:06

it's sort of, it's even that playing field a bit

30:08

about remote work and global teams, which

30:11

has been really good. Yeah.

30:13

I think that's great. Um, what kind

30:15

of advice do you have for other people going through this

30:17

sort of pandemic can perhaps

30:20

feeling uncertain about their business? It's

30:23

a difficult , it's difficult to say, but I think you've

30:26

really got to listen to what you've

30:29

got to really think about what you think is going

30:31

to happen in the next 12 months,

30:33

two years, and what that's gonna mean

30:36

for your business and be re, be brutally

30:38

realistic about what those changes

30:40

and challenges are going to be. Um,

30:45

because you know, probably most businesses

30:50

to a certain extent going to be in survival mode. So

30:52

what's , what's it going to take, so your business to survive

30:55

and are you prepared to do that? Like, yeah.

31:00

That'd be a really telling time, particularly for Melbourne.

31:02

I think the next sort of three to six months,

31:04

but clearly

31:07

outlook at the moment, I think, but

31:09

it's like, I don't know

31:11

part of me is like, something like this

31:13

had to happen because, you

31:16

know, following behind the pandemic

31:18

is, you know, the climate crisis

31:21

and biodiversity collapsed

31:23

. Like, what are we thinking?

31:26

You know? And even for business, like keep up

31:28

, like the growth we had and

31:31

the cups we were selling, it was sorta

31:33

, my kid may feel sick. Like who's using

31:35

all these products and where are they going?

31:37

Like, do we, we can't,

31:40

we can't consume our way to a more

31:43

equitable and greener society. That's

31:45

for sure. Like, yeah . That's

31:47

an interesting way to look at it actually. Yeah.

31:50

Cause that's the thing. I mean, I only have one keep cut

31:52

. I don't have dreadful

31:54

. So

31:56

I guess that is something that you're thinking about. It's like,

31:59

Oh yeah, it's different purchasing

32:01

this many that it kind of

32:03

is a double edged sword. Yes.

32:07

It's been really lovely chatting with you. And

32:09

I've really enjoyed hearing the story of like how

32:11

you've evolved and great . And I reckon this

32:14

there's so much, but I mean, you personally as well,

32:16

I think there's so much that

32:18

you can share and help other people with,

32:21

because you've built this incredible business. And I

32:23

think lots of our members already take a

32:25

lot of , um , take heightens from this interview.

32:28

So I haven't been too gloomy. Haven't,

32:31

we've done little nights as I was

32:33

going on and I can see of the things that

32:35

I really loved, you know, even their advice about

32:38

if you can't, it don't manufacture it.

32:40

In other words , validate your product before

32:42

you go and spend all that money

32:44

. Like even that that's like little nuggets

32:47

of wisdom that, you

32:49

know, you need to hear that stuff . Cause I don't think enough

32:51

people kind of say that. And then you might

32:53

invest all this money on a new website or ordering

32:56

products from China or whatever. And then you don't

32:58

sell that . Um , I

33:00

think, and also the stuff around like partnerships

33:02

, um, you know , getting the

33:04

cool people in your industry to like, like

33:06

the product, you know, to kind of amplify

33:09

it for you. That's again, that's like such

33:11

good advice because I feel like

33:13

there's so much we can do with collaborations

33:16

and partnerships for small brands

33:18

and business owners who are just starting out. Like you were

33:20

, that's the only way really to get

33:23

in front of lots of people and

33:25

get them loving what you're doing. So I

33:27

think, you know, as you've talked to her , we'll be

33:29

making all these nights and I just think it's really

33:31

nice to hear your story and your thoughts.

33:33

Yeah.

33:34

And I think, yeah, be aware the influences

33:36

we've never used them. And because if

33:38

you're trying to build a genuine product with a genuine

33:41

movement behind it, you need genuine people.

33:43

You can't have people who are cached for comment.

33:46

Yeah. I think ,

33:48

Yeah, totally . I think a lot of people

33:50

have been burned through using influences

33:52

and that particularly when you've got like a purpose driven

33:54

product, I don't think you

33:56

need to go down that route. You need to find people

33:58

who share your values to collaborate

34:01

with on these things. Um , and

34:03

that's, that's an important one. Cause I think some people just

34:05

think influencer marketing is the answer to their

34:07

products and then they gift the influencers and the

34:10

influencer maybe does a story, but maybe not.

34:12

And then they go , yeah.

34:15

So it's really interesting. So now I think you've shared lights

34:17

. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it because

34:19

I've been curious to hear how you guys have. Yeah.

34:21

I've been tracking through COVID and

34:24

I'm sad to hear that you're going to lose lots of people, but

34:26

I think it , like you said, it's an inevitable

34:29

thing at the moment for lots of companies to have

34:31

to.

34:32

Yeah. And I think it's not, you know, I

34:34

mean, I guess I shared it to say that

34:37

I , yeah, it's not a failure

34:39

to have like

34:42

these things coming and there's, there's more changes

34:44

going to happen on the back of it. Like this whole idea that the

34:47

economy is going to bounce back. Like

34:49

the bottom line is we need to

34:51

really reframe, you know, we're , our

34:53

whole system is predicated

34:56

on limitless growth and that's not

34:58

possible. So how are we going to reframe

35:01

what we do and , and rethink through?

35:04

Mm yeah. There's a lot of questions. And

35:06

I think it is a really good time to think about that

35:08

and to take stock because suddenly you do have

35:11

lots of time, you know, more time than perhaps

35:13

you would before. And like for some

35:15

of the women who've lost their jobs, three coronavirus

35:17

and who and our membership, they're actually

35:20

using some of this time to give back as they

35:22

deem it the mentor hour. And I think

35:24

that if you can't, you know, earn lots of

35:26

money through your business, you can at least

35:29

align yourself with something that, you

35:31

know, you'll feel passionate about and actually has a purpose.

35:34

Um , and again, that's one of the reasons why people love Kate cup.

35:36

Cause it's just the curve , it's the story behind

35:38

it. It's what you guys are campaigning for.

35:41

And I think that's why I wanted to interview you because I

35:44

there's so much more to

35:46

the keep cup. Like you said , it's a signifier

35:48

of intention and you know , we

35:51

have to treat, you know , we have to treat that

35:53

with utmost respect as we drive

35:56

the business forward. Yeah. And just before

35:58

we wrap up, like what are the, what has been the impact

36:00

of Cape curb ? Do you have the stats to hand?

36:03

No, because the impact is yours.

36:05

Like, I don't know what you do with the product.

36:07

So it belongs, you know , that's

36:09

the nice thing about it too. It doesn't belong to us. It

36:11

belongs to all the people who use keypad

36:13

. Yeah. But I think it has become,

36:16

you know , a stepping stone in a journey

36:19

because once you start using keep cup , then you start thinking

36:21

about other things. You , you know, you're on the beeswax

36:23

wrap , you're on the reusable containers. Like it , it

36:26

takes you somewhere, which it definitely

36:28

does. Yeah. I actually got one of the beeswax

36:30

wraps I'm best. I

36:32

use too much clingfilm . And like, so

36:35

then getting into like tapware and things for like

36:37

avocados to cover, but you're right, because

36:40

I just can't find a good one. Um, but

36:42

you're right. It does inspire you

36:44

to think about all of this plastic that you're

36:46

constantly using and you know what, like five

36:49

years ago? Well, maybe, maybe

36:51

I was thinking about it then, but definitely not

36:53

sort of 10 years ago, I was never thinking

36:55

about all the plastic and going into supermarkets

36:58

and how everything was individually, individually

37:00

wrapped in the UK that like

37:03

, I remember traveling to the UK go, Oh my

37:06

God. Cause I used

37:08

to the fruit shop here where it's all open,

37:10

you know, nothing's packaged and you go, yeah.

37:14

And my lovely mama , she she'd always bring and still

37:16

does actually bring home avocados

37:18

that are in a Tupac , like packed

37:20

with plastic over the top. Could

37:22

you not just get the woman's ? And she's like, Oh, that's all I had.

37:25

And you know , Sainsbury's or wherever . And I'm like, why,

37:28

why are they doing it ? Ha . And

37:30

it doesn't occur to my mom necessarily cause

37:32

she's in her seventies, but it's

37:34

just a habit and say with me, like chipping

37:37

in it in the rear , you know, she kind of don't think

37:39

about it now. Yeah . But I remember

37:41

my auntie used to wash glad rep my

37:45

partners . He

37:47

said she used to like literally get the clean zone , put

37:49

it on the other thing that it dried and reuse

37:52

it. And I was like, she was before a time. Yeah.

37:55

Yeah. So yeah, it is a stepping stone. And

37:57

thank you so much for all you do. Where

37:59

can people find out more about you and keep cap ? Do you

38:01

want people to connect with you on LinkedIn or visit

38:03

the website ? Instagram.

38:06

The website. Yep . Perfect.

38:09

All right . Well thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Lovely

38:11

to talk to you. I

38:15

hope you enjoyed the episode with Abigail.

38:18

I'm looking forward to seeing what's next for kicker

38:21

and I wish them all the best over the next

38:23

few months , let us know what you think

38:25

of the X paid by tagging us on it actually

38:28

maps . And I particularly

38:30

want to say any shots to be holding your Cape

38:32

cup. That would be really fantastic, particularly

38:35

as not as many people are using that . Keep

38:37

cups during coronavirus. So

38:39

give us a tag, tell us what you think of the episode.

38:42

And of course, if you're interested in learning

38:44

more about sheep mentors and our own

38:46

purpose, then hop over to

38:49

[inaudible] dot com.edu . We would absolutely love

38:51

to meet you. There are so many incredible women

38:53

in our membership who all give back

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one hour, every single month

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to someone else. There are no

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other communities that are doing this. And I strongly

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urge you to come and say hello to us and

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joy and our purpose driven community setting.

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Lots of love. See you next time.