0:00

In today's episode, we have Justine Ang Fante,

0:02

a raised Catholic Filipino. And we talk

0:04

about how the definition of dating love

0:07

and marriage conflicts with our Asian immigrant

0:09

parents, specifically dating

0:11

someone to appease our parents racism,

0:14

in interracial relationships, our sexuality,

0:17

the choice of having kids or no kids, and how

0:19

all of this is related to

0:21

decolonization Welcome

0:48

back to another episode. Today. We have

0:51

Justine Ang Fante, who is

0:53

a sex educator, specializing in

0:55

intersectional health. She is a Filipina

0:57

American who lives in New York city,

0:59

loves to bake and loves to share

1:02

what she bakes with all her friends and

1:04

neighbors and people, and just spread love that

1:06

way. Something that Justine

1:08

really would like to talk more about

1:10

is being comfortable with her sexuality,

1:13

but also how our

1:15

sexuality can sometimes conflict

1:17

with our Asian immigrant parents,

1:20

assimulations. And that

1:22

is something I feel like

1:25

I can relate to a lot as a fellow

1:27

Asian American, Asian Canadian

1:30

person who

1:32

is educated in Western

1:35

culture. And more open

1:37

about sexuality, but when you come home,

1:40

then that door gets closed and we

1:42

just do not talk about sex. So I'm

1:44

really curious to hear from

1:46

your perspective, Justine, like what are your

1:48

thoughts on how our

1:50

sexuality conflicts with

1:52

our Asian immigrant parents?

1:54

Well, specifically around like

1:56

what marriage and family expectations

1:59

are. I think that the

2:02

expectation as an Asian

2:04

girl daughter in an Asian

2:07

family is that you propagate

2:10

your family's gene pool with

2:12

other little Asian babies. And

2:15

that expectation is

2:18

set at a really early age where

2:21

they are group really teaching

2:23

you and raising you right from the get, go

2:25

to be. Someone that

2:27

is a caretaker and to prioritize somebody

2:29

else's needs over your own.

2:32

And that gender role aspect definitely

2:34

starts to define your own identity at

2:36

an early age. Even if it's not something

2:39

you plan on doing or want to do. and

2:41

then just the lack of communication

2:43

around, sexual health is

2:45

something that I think a lot of people,

2:48

become ill informed when the stakes

2:50

are higher and they're left with trying

2:52

to just figure it out because it's not something their parents

2:54

talked to them about or

2:56

did. So in a way that was loving and nurturing

2:59

and more so punitive, if you

3:01

had messed up or someone in your family had quote,

3:03

messed up and then them telling you

3:05

this won't happen to you because we're supposed

3:07

to be perfect. And there's only shame attached

3:10

to something that was unplanned,

3:12

or not meeting, you know, what we expect

3:15

from you. There's not a lot of communication

3:17

about, you know, sex and sexuality.

3:19

and then there's an expectation that after,

3:22

you know, not having had

3:24

any romantic partners until you're

3:26

finished with that school, it's supposed to just pop

3:29

out grandchildren for them ASAP without

3:32

ever having had a conversation as to what a healthy

3:34

relationship looks like, that you can date

3:36

in high school and not, you

3:38

know, flunk out of class.

3:40

And so there's, a really

3:43

a struggle, I think for a lot of, you know,

3:45

kids of, Asian immigrants where

3:47

they don't know how to navigate the

3:49

dating world, because it's not something that was openly

3:52

talked about or, normalized

3:54

as, you know, as teenagers. And

3:57

then we're expected to just be like rabbits

3:59

producing all the grandchildren, when there

4:01

wasn't really any, practice

4:03

prior.

4:04

I hate all of that because. growing

4:07

up, I've never had any quote,

4:09

unquote sex talk from my parents.

4:11

By the time I got to high

4:13

school and then, you know, having crushes on

4:15

boys, wanting to date, then of course

4:17

it's no, you cannot date until

4:19

you have finished all your education.

4:22

And then we'll talk about it And so zero

4:24

sex talks, zero talks about dating zero talks

4:26

about how to have a healthy

4:28

relationship, but what is dating and

4:31

some parts of it. I don't blame my parents

4:33

because at least my parents, they

4:35

didn't date. They also just listened

4:37

to their parents as well. Their parents pick

4:39

their spouses and they're like, yeah, you guys are going

4:41

to get married and bust out some babies. And,

4:44

and so that's all they know, and they

4:46

pass that down to me. So they wouldn't even know

4:48

how to give me dating advice. But what

4:50

I find really frustrating

4:54

is. The moment you

4:56

get out of school. When are you going to

4:58

get married? Where are you going to have kids? Where are my grandkids?

5:00

Like you ain't getting any younger,

5:02

yeah, you're not alone.

5:04

I am a little bit more fortunate in the

5:06

sense that when my parents

5:08

immigrated to Canada, my mom decided

5:10

to go into early childhood education.

5:13

And through that program,

5:15

she picked up a lot of more Western

5:17

upbringing. methods. So she,

5:20

she knows that like, Hey, everything needs to be

5:22

like positive reinforcement.

5:24

you need to be open-minded with your kids, et

5:26

cetera, et cetera. So she has been a lot

5:28

more exposed to this type of

5:30

stuff. And she works at a

5:32

pretty good, preschool, basically it's,

5:35

it's, almost government funded program.

5:38

And so she gets, she goes to all these workshops

5:40

about a lot of topics that are,

5:42

you know, currently, at the top of

5:44

people's mind, for example, like homosexuality

5:48

or trans people. So this is something

5:50

that she was obviously was never,

5:52

ever exposed to and because

5:54

of the environment that she works in, she's

5:56

a lot more open-minded. So I have. Had

5:58

the fortune of seeing her mind being

6:00

transformed as well, because she did used to

6:03

be, a little bit homophobic as

6:05

most immigrant parents are

6:07

or still, yeah, we're we're are.

6:09

but the funny thing is, even though my mom is

6:11

very open-minded in that regard, I

6:14

can see in her behavior and

6:16

things that she says to me that there's still a lot

6:18

of conflict for her. So after

6:20

the end of my last relationship, my

6:22

mom was very, open-minded like, you know,

6:24

like you don't really need to get married.

6:27

you don't need to have children to

6:29

be happy in this life. I just want

6:31

you to be happy. But now that I'm in a relationship,

6:33

she starting to kind of push for grandchildren

6:35

again. so it's kind of funny for me to

6:37

see that too, because it just, I see

6:40

so much conflict within her as well, even

6:42

though she has been exposed to this education

6:44

and I feel, I see that conflict in myself

6:47

as. Yeah. So, you

6:49

know, like it's really hard

6:51

for us to unlearn that. And Justine,

6:53

you mentioned that, you know, you grew up

6:55

in a Filipino family, like you have

6:58

all this, culture instilled in you, have

7:00

you ever seen a conflict arise

7:03

in your, in what you do now and

7:05

how you were raised?

7:06

Every day, I'm

7:10

not just Filipino, but I was raised Catholic

7:12

and I am a full-time sex educator.

7:15

All of those things, do not

7:17

get along. And the number one

7:19

opposition in my career is

7:21

the Roman Catholic church, right?

7:24

When it comes to homosexuality,

7:26

when it comes to marriage,

7:28

when it comes to, marriage first,

7:30

before you can have kids,

7:32

when it comes to reproductive rights,

7:35

right? All of this is

7:38

completely contrary to how

7:40

I was raised. and what I now teach

7:42

in classrooms and, you know, on

7:44

stages is very contrary

7:47

to that upbringing. So

7:49

I'm constantly in conflict with,

7:51

how I was raised. And now what

7:53

I am raising younger generations

7:56

to buy into.

7:57

How did you get to. Where

7:59

you are now from where

8:01

you had come from, in terms of your

8:04

understanding of what dating is,

8:06

what love is with marriages, what babies

8:08

are about sex, and

8:10

then to where you stand now, educating

8:13

younger folks and speaking

8:15

about sexuality in a very

8:17

open way.

8:18

I don't know if it was really, I a moment,

8:21

but I think it's a combination of

8:23

my experiences, both personally

8:25

and professionally, that

8:28

really reaffirmed that

8:30

I'm in the right place doing the

8:32

right thing. So on

8:34

the professional. Vain.

8:36

I had been a sex

8:38

educator as a high school senior

8:40

for my last year of high school, kind

8:43

of as a volunteer service learning project.

8:45

and so that was like my real first introduction

8:47

to what sex ed even was. And

8:49

I was teaching things that I was never taught,

8:52

you know, in middle school or high school. and then

8:54

I had pursued, a master's

8:56

in education. So I was working

8:58

in a school, as a seventh and eighth

9:00

grade math teacher and I had pregnant

9:03

middle-schoolers. So I saw a direct

9:05

connection to how they're

9:07

health was something

9:09

infringing on their academic

9:12

achievement. So then that connection

9:14

was made continued on to get the

9:16

master's in public health, with a specialization

9:18

in sexuality. And I had done my practicum

9:21

in the Philippines where my family is from

9:23

doing an investigation on how their

9:25

first year of the department

9:28

of education sex ed pilot was doing.

9:30

It was quite abstinence only.

9:33

Based kind of sex ed.

9:35

and I was seeing its direct impact

9:38

to why there are 80 students in one

9:40

classroom with one teacher and

9:42

why families were trying

9:44

to figure out how to stay afloat

9:46

in buying a sufficient number of

9:48

bags of rice for the four

9:50

extra children they never planned on

9:53

having. So now there's eight of

9:55

them. So I started to see like how

9:57

economy education was

9:59

being impacted by family

10:01

planning, not being something normalized

10:03

or taught early on. and then in

10:05

my actual classroom and own experiences,

10:08

professionally teaching, I'm seeing

10:10

how much of an impact. Is

10:13

in the prevention of a lot of

10:15

these things with my students in New York

10:17

city, with students that I'm teaching in the U S

10:19

and how understanding their authentic

10:22

self, beyond them as a sexual

10:24

being also means their sexuality

10:27

and their gender identity and being their authentic

10:29

self, being so liberating

10:31

as something that they can be in

10:33

sixth grade already, as opposed to waiting

10:35

until they're an adults getting divorced,

10:38

because they have just learned or

10:40

just realized or come into their own

10:42

that it was okay to be gay. And so

10:44

being able to really dismantle

10:46

those oppressions in

10:49

classroom settings with young populations

10:51

is a really powerful affirming. I

10:53

had paired all of that professional

10:55

background with my personal dating

10:58

experiences. My first romantic

11:00

partner was, when I was a junior in high

11:02

school, but I didn't tell my parents

11:04

that he was my boyfriend for the first year

11:07

of dating. and what was actually helpful

11:09

about that lie was that

11:11

by the second year, when I decided

11:13

I was going to tell them, I've actually

11:16

been dating him for a year, my

11:18

parents still busted out the same

11:20

rebuttals that they

11:22

probably would have said when I

11:24

just started dating him. Well, what's going

11:26

to happen with your studies. What's going to happen

11:29

with your tennis, how are you going to be able to focus?

11:32

And I said, well, if you take a look at

11:34

the last 365 days,

11:36

studies in tennis have not been

11:39

compromised, right. Like I have

11:41

evidence here and

11:43

then were like, oh, oh,

11:46

she's really. But she can't say that out loud.

11:48

Right? My mom can't say that out loud. So,

11:51

you know, it was something hard. It was

11:53

really hard for my parents to grapple with the fact that

11:55

like, oh, I'm coming into adulthood

11:57

and this is something that's natural for

11:59

our daughter, but they're still thinking

12:01

that this is only bad and leads

12:03

to a tattoo, riding a motorcycle

12:06

and shooting up heroin. And

12:08

you know, that is not the case and getting pregnant

12:10

while you're doing all of that and then also getting pregnant.

12:12

Right. and so it was really hard for them

12:14

to accept that I had, you

12:16

know, that I am, you know, someone

12:19

that can fall in love that can

12:21

be loved by someone outside

12:23

of a family member. but I understand

12:25

that it's all rooted in safety. They're

12:28

afraid that, you know, if I lose

12:30

focus on the things that have helped them survive

12:33

as an immigrant in the United States, I'm

12:35

going to have a hard time and all they've

12:38

ever wanted is for me to have a

12:40

life path that is much easier than

12:42

what they had to endure. So I

12:44

get it. And then, you know, as I'm

12:46

dating, you know, then they became used to the fact

12:48

that, oh, okay. So after that relationship,

12:50

she might have another relationship.

12:52

And this is all before,

12:55

you know, a master's program is complete or

12:57

a medical degree is complete. And that is

12:59

now a reality for us as parents

13:01

of just and Fox. and so all of that

13:03

was interesting. And then I came across, my

13:05

first boyfriend who was white,

13:08

the first two were Asian. and it

13:10

was a really healthy, long

13:12

five-year relationship. And I

13:14

had noticed how happy my parents

13:17

were in this relationship.

13:19

and I figured because it was a happy relationship.

13:22

I, that I. But I had noticed comments from

13:24

aunties and other family members

13:26

that stemmed around how beautiful our

13:28

children would look because

13:31

of how Mr. Lisa or Misty.

13:33

So they would be with being lighter

13:35

skin and having a sharper nose.

13:38

And these were things that I'd always known about, like

13:40

the Filipino stereotype and comics that

13:42

I, you know, followed and listened to. and I just

13:44

figured this is just something in general

13:46

that is that they just believe, but

13:49

I didn't really connect it to racism

13:51

yet until

13:53

a couple of boyfriends. After that, I started

13:56

dating a black man and I saw

13:58

their complete opposite

14:00

reaction despite how healthy

14:03

my relationship was. And again,

14:05

it was rooted in a I'm

14:07

scared for your safety. It's

14:09

not that you know, I don't like

14:12

him. But I don't want

14:14

their problems to now become our

14:16

family's problems. And

14:19

that was an interesting way of looking at

14:21

what that racism is, because

14:23

sure you can vote for Obama

14:26

and you can be fine with my black roommate,

14:29

but when it starts to

14:31

enter potentially your gene

14:33

pool and it now becomes

14:35

your family, that's a responsibility

14:38

that the ally ship stops

14:40

at. And that was super

14:42

interesting to me. Cause that's when I directly saw

14:45

how opposite they reacted to my

14:47

white boyfriend and how they're reacting

14:49

to this black boyfriend. And

14:51

after that relationship ended for, you know,

14:53

reasons that that had nothing to do with my parents,

14:56

the boyfriend, after that also happens

14:58

to be black. And I felt that my family

15:00

reacted even stronger

15:03

in anger because they felt

15:05

that. I

15:07

should have learned my lesson quote the

15:09

first time. And here

15:11

I was now just on purpose

15:14

disobeying, the family

15:16

values. Of protection

15:18

and that was super hurtful and

15:21

really, a revelation and understanding

15:23

where all this was coming from. And it was also the

15:25

beginning of like my own decolonization work

15:27

that I had started to do in my own Philippina

15:30

community. So it wasn't just

15:32

like a, oh, we want lighter skin

15:34

it's that we don't want this to be a part

15:36

of us because their problems then become our

15:38

problems. And that's when I started making

15:40

sense of anti-blackness in the Filipino

15:42

community, I was always aware of anti

15:44

indigenous, you know, feelings in the Filipino

15:47

community. But now just adding

15:49

onto that as I was getting older, you know,

15:51

in my mid twenties, and absorbing

15:53

all of this while I'm teaching about,

15:56

you know, beauty standards in my own

15:58

sex ed classroom and sexuality

16:00

in those classrooms, seeing like how

16:02

those same colonial mentality. Are

16:05

infiltrating my own personal life.

16:08

So that's how I came to where I'm

16:10

at in, you know, understanding sexuality

16:12

and the way that I do and making sense

16:14

of my own lived reality as

16:16

a dating person. and the consequences

16:19

or ramifications. If I bring

16:22

that news home to my family who might not

16:24

be educated in the same way that I

16:26

have been.

16:27

Wow, holy shit.

16:30

Like one, absolutely. I can hear

16:32

the passion in everything you say,

16:34

and you are very eloquent.

16:36

So, you know, ladies and gentlemen,

16:39

Justine really knows what she's talking about. Go

16:41

check her out. If you haven't already. I

16:44

like, for me, that's a lot to process. and

16:46

it seems like you have reached a point

16:48

of kind of acceptance that this

16:50

family. Is the way they are and you're just

16:52

going to have to work around that. Is that

16:54

right?

16:55

Yeah. you know, Hasan Minhaj has

16:57

this one phrase that I've thought of. So

17:00

often since his homecoming king

17:02

special came out about the

17:04

number of cards you're dealt with, that

17:07

you, that are worth fighting for

17:09

in your, with your immigrant family. And

17:11

so, you know, I could go home and

17:13

complain about how I have to go to church

17:16

with them again, because it's the holidays

17:18

and it's around also my birthday. And

17:20

when the Catholic church, there are so many times

17:22

you're expected to go to mass

17:24

during the Christmas season. And my birthday

17:26

is December 30th and you're supposed to go to mass

17:28

on your birthday. So I'm just going to church a lot

17:31

whenever I'm home in December. And I

17:33

could make a whole thing of it, about

17:36

where I'm at with my Catholic faith,

17:38

that doesn't necessitate needing to go to

17:41

a building to worship. and

17:44

I could do that every single time. But

17:47

I also know that I am

17:49

going to stand strong with who

17:51

I fall in love with, and that's going to be a very big

17:53

fight, potentially. There's going to be a big

17:55

fight about how I want to raise my kids

17:58

if I have kids. And that's more,

18:00

those are fights that I want to preserve

18:02

my energy for than wasting

18:04

it on a it's an hour in

18:06

mass with my parents. And it makes

18:08

them so happy. And the amount

18:11

of happiness that it gives them

18:14

is something that's so

18:16

outweighs. The irritability

18:18

I'll have for those 60 minutes,

18:21

this isn't the card I'm going to actually play

18:23

right now. This isn't the one I'm going to send a, save

18:25

it for the bigger ones. Save

18:28

it for the bigger ones on who you're going to marry.

18:30

If you marry how you're going to raise your kids,

18:32

what type of, you know, religion you may

18:34

or may not, you know, take on, like, those are the bigger

18:37

ones. And I'm thinking to senior only get five

18:39

cards. Don't waste it on

18:41

the 60 minutes that you can tolerate.

18:44

But there are other things I won't be able to tolerate

18:46

and I'm saving it for them

18:48

that pick your battles and choose

18:50

the ones that you're really going to give a shit about

18:53

because going to mass, if it's going to appease them

18:55

and it doesn't really hurt me that much,

18:57

whatever, I'll go to mass to make you

18:59

feel happy. But the shit that you're not

19:01

going to stand for is how you're going

19:03

to raise your kids. What religion,

19:05

who you're gonna marry, how the wedding is

19:07

going to be all these,

19:10

all these decisions that you are not going to

19:12

pivot for, pick those as

19:14

your battles. Have you had

19:17

a battle yet with family

19:19

members about any of these big

19:21

ticketed five card items?

19:24

no, because I have not yet been,

19:26

you know, engaged. I have not yet

19:28

been pregnant. so

19:31

those cards are still, you know, waiting

19:33

in their, in their safe, have not been unlocked

19:36

yet or used, but there was,

19:38

an, I came out to my

19:40

parents about one thing that falls under

19:42

that realm that, I was

19:44

pleasantly really, surprised

19:47

and grateful for how

19:49

my mom reacted. And then

19:51

what she told me, my dad said after she shared

19:54

it, and that was basically telling them

19:56

that I may not even

19:58

get married and I'm okay

20:00

with that. I'm asking

20:02

that you will be okay with

20:04

that too. and I expected that to be something

20:07

bigger. And of course there was a little, you know,

20:09

pushback, and was like, yeah, but then how will

20:11

you, but then, but then what if you want to

20:13

have kids and you don't have a man? And I said,

20:15

well, I have a sperm bank

20:17

that I could like look into,

20:19

but you won't know them. I was like, well, I will do my

20:22

due diligence. Just, I ha as I I've

20:24

always been a good student, mom trained

20:26

me to be a good student. I will do all of my research

20:28

to make sure that I, you know, find

20:30

that too. And even if I were to know the

20:32

man love the man

20:35

date, the man for five years,

20:37

that doesn't guarantee that

20:39

he's going to be a good husband,

20:42

a good father, or be the same person

20:45

that I knew him for prior to

20:47

becoming a father. And we unfortunately

20:50

have enough bad statistics

20:52

in our own family to prove

20:54

that marriages don't

20:56

stay. a marriage for

20:58

a variety of different reasons.

21:01

And so, you know, I think she felt

21:03

that I was right, but was sad that

21:05

I was right. And then she really

21:08

just paused for a bit and said, you

21:10

know, of course I want to have grandchildren.

21:12

And I would think that that is something that would make you

21:14

happy. But if you're starting to realize

21:17

now, you know that it may

21:19

not be something that could make you

21:21

happy, or you're open to the idea

21:23

that you can still have a full fulfilled, valid

21:25

life without it. Then I have

21:28

to be happy for it. I want

21:30

you to make a choice and I've trust. I trust

21:32

you with all of the different decisions you've made

21:34

in your, in your life. That it's,

21:36

it's a choice that's been well thought out.

21:38

and so I was like driving with my mom

21:40

saying all this and like tearing up and like, whoa,

21:43

did my mom just pull, you know,

21:45

an Angie Parentline on. I just want you to be happy

21:48

because that's not a typical,

21:51

you know, Asian immigrant line.

21:53

because they may say this until

21:55

you're dating a black man, even if you're happy.

21:59

Right. and so when they, my mom said this, I was

22:01

like, okay. And then the next

22:03

day she told me in the morning, I told her Papa

22:05

what you said to me last night in the car. And I was like,

22:08

and then my mom said,

22:10

well, and he said, you know, Justine

22:13

is a very thoughtful person and,

22:15

you know, she makes good joyous choices. And if

22:18

this is something, if that's something that, you

22:20

know, she can feel happy about still too, then we have to

22:22

just support her. She's an adults. And so

22:24

that's been a big. Change

22:27

in an effect for my parents around,

22:29

around this, this stuff. And so that's been really

22:31

a gift. So when you first, reached

22:33

out to me, Kristy about, you know, what do you want to talk about?

22:36

I'm like, well, what is shit? I haven't told my mom.

22:39

And it, it was that, that I wrote into the Google

22:41

form and then I went home for the holidays

22:43

and I said, or I can just

22:46

tell my mom this shit now. And

22:49

it was hard. But

22:51

then I said, oh, well, is this going to be a relevant

22:53

episode? Because I already did the thing

22:56

that I wasn't supposed to share

22:59

yet, but I thought about it a lot. And

23:03

so, you know, it was really a blessing

23:05

to hear them receive it in

23:07

that way. because, you know, I froze my

23:09

eggs and I was a little concerned that they

23:11

wouldn't be comfortable with that. You know,

23:13

science and Catholicism

23:16

don't always always apply.

23:18

and yet they were totally great about it. And

23:20

I think it's because they saw how, like how

23:22

much foresight I was applying

23:24

here. you know, my type a Capricorn

23:26

self was on full blast with,

23:29

you know, wanting to plan for something I

23:31

may not need that costs 16

23:33

freaking thousand dollars, but was

23:35

worth an important investment in

23:37

my future and maybe my family's future.

23:40

and so they were all about it. and

23:42

so I was really surprised, but I joke

23:44

to friends that, you know, for Asian

23:47

immigrants, Catholic immigrant

23:49

parents, you know, it's like telling

23:51

them. That they

23:53

have guaranteed grandchildren without intercourse.

23:56

So of course we're going to be okay with this. but

23:58

you know, they were really great about it. And,

24:01

you know, having, you know, eggs on ice

24:03

is like something that has taken definitely a lot of pressure

24:05

off, but it's, what's allowed me to really

24:08

step into the idea that maybe

24:10

not being married or maybe not

24:12

having kids, or maybe not being married

24:15

with kids can be a very

24:17

viable and valid option

24:19

for me that still conjures the same level

24:21

of happiness. If I were to be married

24:23

with kids, which was a goal I had

24:25

for 35 years up until

24:28

very recently. And so

24:30

sitting with that has really helped me to just

24:32

feel more at ease if I'm on the dating apps

24:35

and just like, just be living life for myself

24:38

and not in search of something that is

24:40

going to make me more complete. but I'm

24:42

really finding that, you know, let's hang

24:44

out with yourself, see if you like her. And

24:47

if you do. Then that should be enough.

24:49

And if something else comes along, that's icing on the cake,

24:51

but it's not the cake.

24:52

Yes, yes. To all

24:54

of that. what I'm actually hearing

24:57

is, you had shit that you haven't told

24:59

mom, and it's been carrying around

25:01

with you for a while. And then when you

25:03

decided to tell mom,

25:06

yeah, it's really fucking scary

25:08

because you have these expectations of

25:10

how they're going to respond. You had

25:12

an expectation of how mom was going to react,

25:14

how Papa's going to react. And,

25:17

you know, we have this innate reaction

25:20

to want to protect ourselves too. So we don't want to get shit

25:22

from our parents. So we're just not going to tell them, but

25:25

it's also so liberating and

25:27

sometimes they might surprise you. And

25:29

because you have stated your case, you

25:32

have earned their trust. From all

25:34

of the decisions that you have ever made

25:36

in your life. And you're able to show and say,

25:38

Hey, I am a smart woman. I

25:40

have done all of these things. I haven't

25:42

fucked up yet, basically. And

25:45

th these are my choices. These are what I'm thinking

25:47

about right now. And I want to share this with you because

25:49

I respect you and you're my parents. And you should probably know.

25:52

And they took it a lot better

25:54

than how we might think

25:56

they would in our own heads. That,

25:58

to me, sounds like it's, it's building

26:00

another level of relationship

26:03

with your parents. Totally

26:05

So I have from perspective, like

26:07

I'm so happy that you ended

26:09

up going home and telling your parents that because.

26:12

Like, I almost teared up hearing that because

26:14

to have that moment with your parents, like,

26:16

I have been through something similar as well, where I

26:19

really held something back from telling my parents.

26:21

And when I actually did, like, they also surprised

26:23

me. but also just from what you were saying

26:25

earlier about how, you know, you chose the

26:27

five cards for yourself. You want to leave the other

26:30

battles, just, you know, that's

26:32

almost like an emotional labor for your parents,

26:35

right? Cause you don't want them to go through that. And that

26:37

shows a lot of love and

26:39

how much your parents want to

26:41

protect you from this world is

26:43

also a lot of love. So in your

26:45

stories, I feel a lot

26:47

of love coming from that. So

26:50

because of that, like, I wasn't as surprised

26:52

by their reaction, you

26:54

know? I can sense

26:56

the love that your family and how

26:59

much love they raised you with,

27:01

and especially seeing what you're

27:03

doing now for the world. Like, again,

27:06

that's more love, right?

27:09

So I just wanted to inject that little machinists

27:11

in there because that's what I'm feeling from

27:13

listening to your story. So thank you for sharing

27:15

that.

27:16

Well, thank you for that perspective, Angie you're

27:19

right. you know, I, cause I think cause

27:21

when I was, when I was dating, that first

27:23

black boyfriend, what I had realized in

27:25

that process was how unhappy

27:28

my parents were, which then tainted

27:30

my happiness with my boyfriend. And

27:33

I didn't like that.

27:34

My parents' happiness was

27:37

determined based on me, obeying

27:40

them, even if it meant me not being happy,

27:42

I really wanted them to be separate things.

27:44

And you know, the respective party gets

27:46

the therapy. They need to like regain

27:49

happiness. I also knew that. It

27:51

was unlikely that therapy

27:53

was going to be had on the other

27:56

end. So it was like a, what

27:58

can I control?

28:00

And if they're unhappy, I

28:02

have to learn to sit with that unhappiness.

28:04

If it means I am doing, what's

28:06

actually a right and authentic with

28:09

my, for myself. So then I

28:11

just get the therapy. I need to sit with

28:13

that tension and that is how

28:15

it's going to be. But I was really convinced

28:17

that, you know, after I'd ended it with him,

28:19

that now, like when I'm swiping and when

28:21

I'm, you know, starting to date, am

28:24

I dating for my parents? So

28:26

that it's just going to be easier

28:28

for them because I love them so much as

28:30

Angie was saying. And

28:33

it was interesting because after

28:35

those two men, I had

28:37

dated a Filipino Catholic

28:40

church going finance

28:43

job. And I

28:45

was like, okay, he's good

28:48

enough. For, I think my parents

28:50

on paper and he seems

28:52

really great for me, what a great

28:55

match. And we dated for

28:57

a long enough time for me to realize

28:59

that over time I actually was

29:02

dating him for my parents.

29:04

I was putting a lot of things under the rug

29:06

for, you know, the two and a half

29:08

years we were together. And it wasn't

29:11

really, until I broke up with

29:14

him, that my therapist asked me, when

29:16

do you think you had that first seed planted?

29:19

That it probably wasn't a

29:21

good match. And

29:23

I was thinking and thinking, and I realized

29:26

it was about six months in and

29:29

yet I was with him and lived with him

29:31

and did couples therapy with him for two

29:33

years after that seed was already there.

29:36

But why didn't I listen to that seed? And

29:39

it's because I kept thinking he's good enough

29:41

for mom and pop and I can fix

29:44

this word in couples therapy. It's

29:46

going to get. He's coachable

29:48

enough and that's not the way to date

29:50

someone, right? They're not

29:52

a fixer-upper you want the

29:54

whole thing to be pretty much

29:56

there for the most part, but I realized

29:58

that I endured it and

30:00

it was so hopeful because I saw how

30:03

happy my parents were with

30:05

me being with a Filipino

30:08

investment banker who went to church on Sundays,

30:10

on his own volition. And,

30:14

you know, my parents were happy that,

30:17

you know, I'd found someone that I think they had always

30:19

wanted me to be with. And that's

30:21

when I, when I broke up with him, they were totally

30:23

good. They were like, oh, I

30:25

can't believe that that happened. Or he said

30:27

that, or he did that, or he didn't do that

30:29

or whatever. And they were totally

30:32

great and, you know, caring, but

30:34

it was so ingrained in me

30:37

with the other relationships I'd

30:39

had about how unhappy

30:41

they were that seeing

30:43

their happy. It's something,

30:45

you know, that is great, but can't be

30:47

the reason I stay. and

30:49

so it's just been, it's been a battle

30:52

in recognizing, you know, my parents are in their

30:54

seventies and yes, I want

30:56

them to be able to maximize quality

30:58

time with me that isn't fighting all the time

31:01

about, you know, how different we are.

31:03

but also not compromising

31:06

my own values and my

31:08

own boundaries, for

31:10

them. And that's a tricky

31:12

thing to reconcile and I'm always

31:14

still working through it. so that's why

31:16

I've come to the, you know, pick your battles.

31:19

How many cards do you have, how much energy

31:22

is going to take for you to do this thing you'd rather

31:24

not do, but you'll do it anyway because

31:26

what's more important is saving that

31:28

energy for the bigger things,

31:31

but, you know, two and a half

31:33

years to date someone for not

31:36

yourself, A

31:38

huge undertaking.

31:41

but I learned a lot from it about

31:43

myself, about my relationship with my parents,

31:45

and you know, what my needs are, but

31:47

that's a hard lesson to learn.

31:49

And in that way,

31:52

first of all, I'm just running

31:55

through a mental checklist of all

31:57

the things and decisions that I have ever made.

32:00

And even ones that I am in right now,

32:02

am I doing them for me or am I

32:04

doing them for other people? And I think a

32:06

lot of our listeners listening

32:08

to this episode right now are probably

32:11

having thinking

32:13

about their own decision making process.

32:15

And considering was that

32:18

really for me? Or is it because

32:21

this checkbox that has been ingrained

32:24

in us for so long. We

32:26

end up internalizing it and thinking

32:29

that that is what we want when really it's

32:31

not. And it can be so exhausting

32:33

because that means you're not living your

32:36

own authentic life. And

32:38

it's not easy to differentiate

32:41

that because

32:43

these lessons have been so ingrained. We think

32:45

this is what we want. And

32:47

it's hard to tease out, is it what I want?

32:50

Or is it because I'm told that's what I want.

32:53

Yup. Struggle's

32:57

real. The other thing that you also

32:59

said was we shouldn't be dating fixer

33:02

uppers, and I don't know where we learn

33:04

that from, but I find thinking

33:06

about my own past relationships, I

33:08

think I do go for fixer uppers thinking

33:11

that, okay, they have checked all

33:13

of these boxes. The other things I will

33:15

just ignore, I will just

33:17

ignore, sweep them under a rug. plus

33:19

the honeymoon stage kind of glosses things over

33:21

anyways. And then once

33:24

you get past that honeymoon stage, then you're like, okay,

33:26

well then all those other things that I was ignoring

33:28

and sweeping underneath the rug, I probably shouldn't ignore them

33:30

anymore, but I can fix them. I can

33:32

fix them because we can go to couples therapy because

33:34

we, we will talk about these things because

33:37

I believe so strongly in this relationship

33:39

that I think we can do this.

33:42

And. And then it ends up being like

33:44

a task on you, but it's not really

33:46

a together thing. You know what I mean? I'm

33:48

not saying people cannot fix

33:51

their relationships. I'm saying

33:53

a lot of times, one party does

33:55

a lot more heavy lifting than the other thinking

33:57

that that is their responsibility. Yeah.

33:59

And in heterosexual relationships,

34:01

a lot of times the onus is on the

34:04

woman because of how socialized

34:06

she has been to caregive,

34:09

caretake accommodate and

34:11

not prioritize her needs

34:14

over somebody else's. So we tend

34:16

to stomach a lot of these things

34:19

and, you know, it's, it's, it's always frustrates

34:21

me when people say, when they find

34:23

out like the sex of the baby that they're about to

34:25

have and be like, oh, so

34:27

good. You're having a boy. They're much easier to raise.

34:30

Why are they much easier? Because girls

34:32

fucking fixed everything for any

34:34

of the problems they creates. That's what.

34:37

Girls are more difficult

34:39

because we are built

34:42

to actually fix humans

34:44

problems. And most of those humans have a penis

34:49

yeah. Actually I remember a friend

34:51

who said, do girls really

34:53

mature faster? Or is it just because

34:55

we're not allowed to get away with as much

34:57

shit as men are, right.

34:59

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. We

35:01

are more complicated humans because

35:03

of the amount of work and the burden

35:06

that is expected for

35:08

us to put out there, to

35:10

fix world's problems and

35:12

be okay. Not taking credit for

35:14

it because we were expected to do it

35:17

in the beginning. So that whole like

35:19

boys will be boys is because we don't expect

35:21

boys to be able to do anything better

35:24

than fuck up. And

35:26

then we come in and clean it up girls to fix

35:28

it. Right. So

35:30

like the whole gender roles thing. If we go back

35:32

to like, how does like sexuality, you know,

35:35

intersect with, you know, my

35:37

identity and my experiences it's

35:39

like, where does it not

35:41

you're right. Where does it not because so

35:43

much of that learning

35:45

about what a woman's role

35:47

is in society comes

35:50

from our parents, but

35:52

also comes from all

35:55

those other places where we learn shit,

35:57

like from school, from friends, from

35:59

media, from books we

36:01

read characters that we get to know.

36:03

Right. We see that. And then we emulate

36:05

that and then we internalize it. We think that

36:07

that should be our place or our identity

36:10

or our responsibility when

36:12

really it's really fucking exhausting. Yeah.

36:19

I want to go back to. Racism

36:22

because I find in

36:24

the Chinese community, it's, it's

36:26

still very pervasive. And

36:29

I know there's a lot of work done

36:31

to unlearn. I'm

36:33

curious to know. Have you had a difficult conversation

36:36

with your parents when you were dating your

36:38

black X's and you saw

36:40

how different they reacted, you

36:43

saw how the aunties had

36:45

reacted. Did you ever confront

36:47

them about it?

36:49

I did. more than once it was, it

36:51

was definitely the biggest strain I've

36:53

ever had, between my parents. And we're very

36:55

tight where like the FA I'm my

36:57

relationship with my parents is like there's texting

37:00

every day. And if

37:02

there isn't a call every other day,

37:04

I get guilt trips for not having called

37:07

the day before. So,

37:09

but you know, it's, it's never feels obligatory.

37:12

It's like, I always just want to share with my mom, like what I'm

37:14

going to cook that evening and tell my dad about

37:16

the newest gig offer I got for some

37:18

job or something. And so it's, you

37:20

know, it's, it's a very comfortable, level

37:22

of communication. but it's also

37:25

become like this expectation now.

37:27

And so when you know, these relationships

37:29

were happening, there were months of

37:31

no communication whatsoever. There

37:34

were, you know, phones that were hung

37:36

up on in the middle of conversations. and

37:38

you know, there was. There were

37:40

a lot of discrepancies in how we talked about

37:43

this with a lot of it rooted in,

37:45

I fear for your safety. We've

37:48

worked so hard to get you to a position

37:50

in your life where you don't have to struggle like

37:53

we had. And I don't

37:55

want that to, you know, I don't

37:57

want any of that ease

37:59

to now be retracted because

38:02

of a burden you will start to share

38:04

with someone who's, you know, life

38:07

has been systemically set up to not

38:09

be easy. and I don't want you to have to take

38:11

that on. So they, you know, they believe

38:14

that they don't deserve that, but they don't want

38:16

to make that become

38:19

their problem. Even if they're doing

38:21

some types of work on the outside to try

38:23

to fix it on, you know, a much more macro

38:26

scale, pick the easier path is

38:28

basically the, was the parenting

38:30

advice. And this is not the easiest.

38:32

So why, why are you doing this?

38:35

And your choice is going to affect everyone,

38:38

not just you and your immediate

38:40

family that you're choosing to possibly

38:42

create with him.

38:44

Wow. I think so much of that sounds

38:46

it's again, it's what Angie said. It's,

38:49

it's coming from a place of love. It's

38:51

coming from a place of protection. They have built

38:54

this life immigrating

38:56

to America so that their

38:58

offsprings can have a better life so that it's not,

39:01

it's not as hard as it was for them. And

39:03

I think every single immigrant

39:05

family has a similar story. That's

39:08

why they immigrated. And

39:10

any disruption to that safety

39:12

net that's really uncomfortable.

39:15

Did you ever get to a place where

39:17

you were able to convince your

39:20

parents that it's okay. To

39:22

be dating a black man?

39:24

No, I was successful in

39:26

with other isms, and

39:28

you know, phobic things that, you know,

39:30

they, they have, taken on. And so

39:33

that's why I was so determined to

39:35

be able to try to do the same with this, issue.

39:38

And, and I wasn't. And so I'm always

39:40

still concerned that, you know, if I

39:42

end up in a similar position,

39:44

what that conversation is going to be like, or if

39:46

maybe they've come around by that point, you know,

39:48

this was many, these were, this was many years ago

39:51

already. but you know, rocking

39:53

the boat when you have

39:55

the privilege of being so adjacent

39:57

to whiteness is super

40:00

hard to, to

40:02

allow. and so I get it,

40:05

but that's not something

40:07

I know I want to perpetuate.

40:11

and that's not something that my parents

40:13

who have worked so hard

40:16

to assimilate want to give up,

40:19

and that's just something we're always

40:21

going to agree to disagree on. I

40:23

understand why, and I love

40:25

them for the things that they are offering

40:28

me, which is more than not, to

40:30

be happy and successful. And

40:32

then there's this one small sliver

40:35

that we'll never agree on. And

40:38

that's why I have an amazing therapist to

40:41

be able to just sit with that and be okay with

40:43

that sliver, not outweighing

40:45

the, you know, the other wonderful aspects

40:47

of our relationship.

40:48

Yep. I don't let that sliver cloud

40:51

everything else up. And it

40:53

almost goes back to the first

40:55

takeaway was pick your battles

40:58

and. Agreeing to disagree

41:01

and then move on from that. And if

41:03

the conversation needs to come up again, later

41:05

in the future, it

41:07

might go in a different direction. We don't know.

41:09

Right? Like, like we just mentioned earlier,

41:12

sometimes when we have difficult conversations,

41:14

we already have this expectation of how

41:16

another person's going to react. Maybe

41:18

it, it will be different and

41:20

maybe it won't, but when that time comes,

41:22

then that's maybe that's when you decide to

41:25

take out one of those five cards and, and

41:27

then we'll go from there.

41:28

Yeah.

42:28

So Angie and I are in our

42:31

early thirties right now, we

42:33

are at a place where we

42:35

think about having kids because that's what is

42:37

expected of us. So we, we think like

42:39

that is what we want as well. And

42:42

then we also think about not having kids

42:45

and. I have been

42:47

upfront about being on team,

42:50

no kid for a really long time,

42:53

as I'm getting older, I

42:56

feel like, am I so strongly on

42:58

the team? No kid. Angie

43:01

has started out as team pro.

43:03

Yeah. I want kids period. Very strong

43:06

about that. And then now she's starting

43:08

to, you know, consider

43:10

not having kids. So basically we

43:13

were on polar opposites and, and now

43:15

we're like, we're starting to meet in the middle, which

43:18

is an even more difficult place because

43:20

there's no strong

43:22

stance in what we want. We're

43:25

just pivoting back and forth. Yeah.

43:28

How did you come to a place where

43:30

you feel strongly about the decision you

43:32

have made now?

43:34

So the decision isn't that I'm,

43:37

you know, my decision. Has

43:39

only changed in that I am allowing

43:41

for another option to be

43:43

as valid. It's not as

43:46

extreme of like now I'm a no kids person,

43:48

right? I'm not, I'm not, I'm trying to

43:50

like, not think about

43:52

the fact that I could have wasted 16 grand

43:54

on free egg freezing, because I feel like

43:56

I need to now use one of them because

44:00

of how much I spent. Right. But,

44:02

that was always my plan I'm going to get married

44:05

by 27 and I'm

44:07

going to have four kids at

44:09

least two years apart. And,

44:12

two of those kids will be adopted and

44:14

that was always my plan. And it seemed

44:16

to like biologically make

44:18

sense. if I had actually

44:20

executed that plan at 27, but

44:23

it did not work out with white boyfriends,

44:25

so then plans change.

44:27

And then I said, okay, I could still do four.

44:30

Well, that's what, you know, adoption adds that buffer

44:32

to my, you know, biological clock. So that's

44:34

okay. So I could still have this plan

44:36

and start at, you know, 35

44:39

or 34, whatever, and

44:42

then Filipino boyfriend didn't work out.

44:44

So then I'm like, okay, well

44:46

I might be able to knock out one

44:49

biological kid, with

44:51

my eggs or without them.

44:53

and then I've just started to get into,

44:56

you know, now in age at 36,

44:58

where a lot of my close

45:01

friends who are my same age

45:03

are now getting divorced or

45:06

are now having a kid

45:09

and just learning

45:12

this new side of a personality

45:14

in their partner. Because they're a different

45:17

person as a parent, or they're not

45:19

the person they expected as a parents.

45:21

And so now I have 36

45:24

year old peers that are surrounding me,

45:26

who are either on the brink of divorce

45:28

already divorced or in very

45:31

unhappy homes.

45:34

And then I'm thinking in my single

45:36

life, why am I

45:38

swiping so damn

45:41

hard for that?

45:44

That's so why

45:49

are you trying so hard? And then

45:51

it's already hard just to find someone right. And the

45:53

thing that I mentioned about these, these friends

45:55

of mine is that I stood by them

45:57

on their wedding days, really

46:00

feeling like this is an

46:02

actual marriage that I

46:04

am totally. They

46:07

are super healthy. I've known

46:09

both of them for X amount of time. I

46:12

feel good about this. I have zero qualms.

46:15

And yet with that,

46:18

like that, that

46:20

solid foundation, they're

46:23

on the brink of divorce. So

46:25

then I'm like, all right, well, I already know I'm not going to

46:27

lower my standards and that I have standards

46:29

and I'm looking for this and that. But even

46:31

with that, that's not a guarantee

46:33

it's going to stick and it's going to work and

46:35

it's going to be immune from

46:38

thinking about divorce. and

46:40

you know, and then once you bust out a kid

46:42

and you bust out a second kid, it makes sense

46:44

that it's going to strain your relationship. So

46:47

not only have like my standards have,

46:49

you know, stayed in like how I'm dating,

46:52

but I'm even now to the point where.

46:55

I don't even need someone to

46:57

try to meet those standards because maybe it's impossible

47:00

and that's not worth like my unhappiness.

47:04

And so if I end up having

47:06

to do this on my own, what would that look

47:08

like on my own terms? And

47:10

I thought, well, I would know that like

47:12

the kind of career mom I would

47:14

want to be is one that

47:17

would need a full on other

47:19

adult presence. That person

47:22

doesn't have to be a husband. That

47:24

person doesn't have to be necessarily a

47:26

co-parent that I'm not married to. I

47:29

just know need like at least a nanny

47:31

present at all times. So that means that

47:33

I need to be making a certain level of income

47:35

to have two full on adults present

47:38

to raise this kid. And I'm thinking about

47:40

my job as a freelancer in sex education.

47:42

And I'm like, it may not be possible

47:44

that I reached that income. Therefore,

47:47

I don't bring a kid into that. I am

47:49

so pro the

47:51

life of the child that

47:53

I won't have one, if I can't give

47:56

them the life that I want

47:58

to give them. And so

48:00

that mentality has made

48:02

me realize, okay, so

48:04

you're going to be cool on see Justine around

48:07

the globe and maybe

48:09

not mom. And you

48:11

were someone that wanted four. I still

48:14

want four, but I need to

48:16

be four times as rich as I'm planning on

48:18

being so that I can have all the nannies to

48:20

make this happen. Right. I

48:23

also need to find like someone who's

48:25

wanting for, from someone

48:27

who's already 36 years old. Right. So

48:30

I still have this as something

48:32

I want, but it's no longer the

48:34

only goal that

48:37

will lead to happiness. It might

48:39

be for kids and it might be no kids.

48:42

And I'm starting to believe that the

48:44

happiness is equal. And

48:46

that's the new thing. That's the mindset

48:48

change that I've made and decision

48:51

I've made to allow

48:53

that as an option?

48:55

I think what not, I think

48:57

what I have just learned from what

49:00

you have shared is it's not

49:02

about picking one direction

49:04

or another. It's not about being

49:06

fixated on, I want

49:08

to be a mom or I want to be a cool

49:10

rich auntie with no kids. It's not

49:12

about picking that one identity and trying to

49:14

strive for it is looking at all of

49:16

the different options and

49:18

allowing all of those options

49:21

to be viable. Right.

49:22

It's widening our definition. Of

49:25

success, because for me,

49:27

it was always like, I'm going to be married. I'm

49:29

going to have kids. And that's what success

49:32

slash happiness looks like. So

49:35

keep swiping, keep swiping, worked

49:37

really hard, you know, put it under the rug.

49:39

He's good enough. He's coachable, whatever.

49:42

And then I'm like, there's got to be another

49:44

way because

49:46

I've been doing that routine

49:48

for 12 years in New York

49:51

city and New York city dating

49:53

is its own beast and I'm tired.

49:56

So, you know, I feel like

49:58

we have to allow for our

50:00

own mental health and our longevity

50:03

that it's possible to

50:05

be happy and more than one ways. Why

50:08

do I, why am I putting so much pressure and weight

50:10

and giving so much credit to one

50:12

thing, one place, one person

50:15

to give you all that happy. Right.

50:17

And so, you know, in the way I've

50:19

even talked to like my high school seniors,

50:21

who are you say, like, I'll only

50:24

be happy if I go to this one. If this one

50:26

school accepts me and I

50:28

was not hit, I was that kid. Do

50:31

you know who is told? Like, if I don't get

50:33

into this one school, my life is over.

50:35

And I didn't realize until I became

50:37

a teacher and realizing, you know, the

50:39

life that I've had, that, why am I giving

50:41

so much power to this one institution

50:44

to provide me with all this happiness, same

50:46

thing. Why am I putting so much power

50:48

in the institution of marriage to give

50:50

me happiness? Oh, wait

50:52

a minute. It's because

50:55

I've bought in to capitalism

50:57

being the thing that tells

50:59

me happiness is only viable

51:01

with marriage. And that's

51:04

why the wedding industry

51:06

is so profitable

51:09

and multi-million dollar. And

51:11

that's also why the divorce rate

51:13

is also something that has

51:16

conjured so much profit in divorce lawyers,

51:19

because it's the whole system of

51:21

make more, make more, make more. This is

51:23

why you have to look a certain way in order to fit

51:25

into that wedding dress. And that dress better be

51:27

a dressed that's white, don't do anything.

51:29

That's like, you know, Versive of

51:31

that. This is the only one way for a wedding to

51:33

really be, and you'll need at least

51:35

five bridesmaid dresses because that's just

51:37

what's traditional is. And, but I mean,

51:39

there's just so many things layered in, like

51:42

they really figured it out. They learn how

51:44

to steal our money by

51:46

convincing us that this is what happiness looks

51:48

like. They do that with beauty standards. They

51:50

do that with hallmark holidays. They do that

51:53

with, you know, Valentine's day, whatever

51:55

it is, like they figured out a way to just take more

51:57

of our money because we've bought into

51:59

the idea that that will therefore lead

52:01

to happiness. And so part of

52:03

it. You know, decolonizing

52:06

is recognizing that

52:08

there is many, there are many ways

52:11

for you to live. it doesn't have to be

52:14

this one that you're giving all

52:16

this one, this power to. So

52:18

it's been really liberating. So

52:21

one give less fucks and

52:23

then to also just know,

52:26

okay, success and happiness is more than one

52:28

thing. Wow, it's

52:30

a game changer. I can just now live

52:32

and live my best life and not feel guilty about

52:34

it because it doesn't look like what

52:37

bridal magazine told me.

52:39

So Mike drop, one

52:43

give less fucks two all

52:46

the fucking options are viable

52:48

and you don't need to stick to one. They can

52:51

all be available at

52:53

the same time. You can do whatever

52:55

you want. Three is controlling

52:58

what you can control and not

53:00

having other people and other

53:02

messages just fuck around with you.

53:04

And it's not your responsibility

53:06

to fix other people. You just control

53:09

what you can control. You

53:11

share your piece into the world. If they accept

53:13

it. Great. If they don't, then we, we agree

53:15

to disagree and we peace out. And

53:17

then finally it's pick your battles, conserve

53:21

that energy. Save it

53:23

for what matters to you because there are

53:25

only five cards. So figure

53:27

out what it is that is important to you. And then all the other

53:29

stuff you can just either give less

53:31

fucks about, or if

53:34

it doesn't cost you that much energy, whatever.

53:36

That's a great cliff note. Thank

53:39

you,

53:39

Christie. Thank you Justine,

53:42

for sharing all of your wisdom with us today,

53:44

how are you feeling?

53:46

Good. I, I feel,

53:48

refresh to be able to share some different

53:50

type of content than I've shared in other podcasts.

53:53

So thank you for asking those

53:55

questions and giving me a platform

53:57

to share my

53:58

answers. So Justine,

54:00

I have one last question for you before

54:02

we end. Our episode is out

54:04

of all of those major topics that

54:06

we talked about, we talked about sexuality. We

54:09

talked about racism. We talked

54:11

about conserving your energy and we talked

54:13

about liberating the self out

54:16

of any of those topics. What

54:18

would be an advice that you

54:20

could give to a younger audience

54:23

or just to your younger self?

54:25

I mean, I like all of those.

54:27

I think the main one for a younger self

54:29

specifically, would be, you

54:31

know, the language,

54:33

age appropriate version of give less

54:36

fucks because during,

54:38

especially starting really during puberty, you

54:40

know, this is where insecurity starts

54:43

to build and grow because of

54:45

what your body is changing into

54:47

that is aligned or not aligned with

54:49

what you hoped and dreamed for yourself.

54:51

And on top of that, you're sent all of these messages

54:54

as to what beauty actually is

54:56

or worthy actually is while

54:59

trying to also just navigate the social landscape

55:01

because you have an innate human

55:04

desire to belong. So I

55:06

get that. I wish more

55:08

middle schools gave students

55:10

enough self-esteem to understand

55:13

belonging with quality

55:15

and not just for capital

55:18

because the number of followers

55:20

or the number of people sitting with you

55:23

at the cafeteria table are not

55:25

necessarily going to tell

55:27

us the actual measure of happiness

55:30

that we have. and I

55:33

was a very strong, I'm a recovering

55:35

people, pleaser, and I,

55:38

you know, someone that was friends

55:40

with everyone, And there's been things that

55:42

have proven helpful from, from that, you

55:44

know, those efforts, but it really

55:46

wasn't until my, you know, late

55:48

twenties where I started to realize

55:52

what quality friendships mean and

55:55

set boundaries in order

55:57

to maintain friendships that actually

56:00

serve me and my happiness

56:02

and not out of obligation or out

56:04

of fear of guilt of leaving. And

56:06

I feel like if I took that on

56:09

when I was younger and really just didn't

56:11

care about, belonging

56:14

in so many groups or certain

56:16

groups, I think I would have been able to

56:18

make more room for other things,

56:20

to explore who Justine was. so

56:22

I would say to my younger self and,

56:25

you know, the younger generation, think more

56:27

intentionally about the

56:29

quality of belonging you're

56:32

looking for. And not just to

56:34

belong to say you belong

56:36

somewhere.

56:38

I love that. Thank you so much for

56:40

being with us on the show today. Justine,

56:42

thank you for having me.