Episode Transcript
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0:01
MUSIC Hello,
0:27
Internet. I'm your husband, host, Travis McElroy.
0:29
And I'm your wife, host, Teresa McElroy. And
0:32
you're listening to Shmaners. It's extraordinary etiquette.
0:34
For ordinary occasions, hello, my dove. Hello,
0:36
dear. How are you on this
0:38
rainy April day? I mean, fine. I
0:42
think that this might be the real spring,
0:44
the real one. Because
0:46
sometimes this happens in Ohio where you
0:49
have several fake outs before
0:51
the actual spring happens. The weather
0:53
in Ohio. Don't hold down. Oh, you don't
0:56
have weather in Ohio. Oh,
0:58
whoa, whoa, whoa. But you do.
1:00
You have several very nice, wonderful
1:02
spring-ish days. You think about planting
1:05
flowers and all that kind of
1:07
stuff. And then it
1:09
gets super cold again. We had four
1:11
freezes. I'll tell you who I feel bad for. What?
1:14
The bulb flowers. The bulbs.
1:17
They start coming up. Yeah. Like,
1:19
middle of March. And they're like, oh,
1:21
yes. What the? And then they're so
1:23
cold. Like the daffodils that get frozen. The
1:26
four daffodillos. Did
1:28
you know that daffodils are toxic? Yeah,
1:31
I mean, I hear them gossiping all the
1:33
time. No. And I'm like, guys, this isn't.
1:35
Come on. No, I had to convince
1:37
our children not to pick them for
1:39
me. Not to eat them? Well, I mean, I don't
1:42
think that they would want to eat them. But picking
1:44
them, actually, like
1:48
when you cut their stems, there's
1:51
a kind of like toxic sap that's released
1:53
that can give you tummy troubles. Oh,
1:55
I don't want that. Yeah. OK. I
1:57
also tell them not to pick them, because I've worked really.
2:00
hard to grow those. Well. Yeah,
2:04
I put a lot of work into cultivating our
2:07
yard and plants and things like that.
2:09
And I would like our kids not
2:11
to pick them. Well, you're
2:13
welcome. I kept them from doing that.
2:16
Speaking of, we're coming up on Earth Day. We
2:18
are. How apropos.
2:20
Cultivating, planting. I love planting.
2:23
My garden, my garden technique, by the
2:25
way, in case anyone was wondering, because
2:27
I grow vegetables and flowers. I have
2:30
a very let nature, as nature
2:32
will. I over plant. I
2:34
don't. I don't. Like,
2:38
for example, by the end of
2:40
the season, my tomato plants look like a
2:42
tiny jungle. Right? I have
2:44
to root through there to find the tomatoes. And I'm
2:46
fine with that. Let them go wild. That's
2:48
my, that's what I do. Let nature, as
2:50
it will. And I'm happy to let
2:53
you let nature. Let nature as
2:55
it will. I don't do it. Yeah. Hey,
2:58
but here's
3:00
the thing that I think that I
3:03
did not know the history of
3:05
for this Earth Day. Is it
3:08
tomatoes? No. Okay. It
3:10
is leave no trace. And this is the.
3:12
Like inspiring. Yes. Yeah. On
3:16
nature. That, that's not
3:18
so much now with the Daniel Craig,
3:20
James Bond's. Daniel Craig smashes through
3:22
a wall to find documents. Oh, he does.
3:24
He leaves so many traces, you guys. This
3:27
was suggested by Katie F. So
3:30
we're going to talk about the history
3:32
as well as the criticisms of the
3:34
program. Okay. So that, you
3:36
know, our listeners out there can have
3:38
a good starting point on all angles
3:40
of this conservation effort. Okay. Speaking
3:43
of which you may, you
3:46
may wonder how did Katie
3:48
F suggested? No,
3:50
they emailed Alex, A L
3:52
E X X at
3:55
the Schmanner's cast at gmail.com. Don't
3:57
address it to her in the.
4:00
shmaniscastegmail.com. It's not Alex
4:02
at shmaniscastegmail.com. That's
4:05
too many ads. That's too many ads. Don't do that. But
4:08
address it to Alex. Yeah.
4:11
We're always in need of those topic suggestions. So
4:13
thank you very much, KDS. Thank
4:15
you, KDS. What
4:17
exactly is leave no trace?
4:23
Oh, that wasn't rhetorical. No, it's
4:25
for you. I assume from
4:27
the title that it
4:29
is about traces. You
4:32
don't leave them. That your
4:34
impact on, like when you,
4:36
okay, I know like when you go
4:38
out into the woods, you take only
4:40
pictures and leave only footprints or something
4:42
like that. Yeah, something like that.
4:44
Take memories, leave the cannoli. Something like that?
4:47
What is that? No, don't leave the cannoli.
4:49
Don't leave the cannoli. Whatever you do. Don't
4:52
give bears cannoli. We've trained the bears
4:54
to love cannoli. And now we have
4:56
bears in all of our pastry shops.
4:59
It is a set of ethics
5:02
promoting conservation of outdoor spaces in
5:04
the US because
5:07
during the post World
5:09
War II boom, a population
5:12
boom, more
5:14
and more people were finding themselves with
5:16
leisure time, right? That
5:18
the working class especially didn't used
5:20
to have. And so that meant
5:23
that people were taking vacations. We
5:25
had highways. People were driving places.
5:28
Here's the thing. Yes. They
5:30
probably wanted to just enjoy themselves.
5:34
And they didn't really think about their
5:36
impact on the environment. I can
5:38
just mean humans in general, because do
5:40
you mean like humans in general forever
5:42
and ever? Because I feel like what
5:44
you've just said, I've watched any
5:48
like basically this like movie or television
5:50
show, but basically we just watched Avatar
5:53
for the Max Flynn
5:55
drive bonus content that we put up.
5:58
And what you've just described. And
6:01
it seems like a pretty good summation
6:03
of humans. Not all humans.
6:05
Not all humans. Indigenous
6:08
people usually have a pretty good grip
6:10
on how to take care of the
6:13
things around them. Yeah,
6:15
though I do want to blanket that by saying
6:17
like, like
6:19
historically, I don't want to make that stereotype
6:21
of like, because someone is indigenous,
6:24
they have naturally this better connection to
6:26
the environment. But I understand communities have
6:28
a better track record. Yeah. And,
6:32
you know, people were just kind of ignorant.
6:35
It's the thing, right? They didn't mean to
6:37
damage things, but they were ignorant about the
6:39
damage they could cause to an ecosystem. Right.
6:42
And in the 60s and 70s, this
6:44
was an explosion of people into like
6:47
public recreation. Well, yeah,
6:49
this is a, there's, it's
6:51
one of the things that I'm interested in, but usually
6:53
my version of the interest is in amusement
6:56
parks. But this idea
6:59
of car travel becoming
7:01
so much more universal
7:03
and long distances and
7:06
like the driving recreation, especially
7:08
here in America, where the
7:11
railway system isn't what it is like, say in Europe,
7:13
right? It isn't even what it used to be. It
7:15
isn't even what it used to be. And
7:17
so this idea of things
7:20
like Disneyland, right, starts
7:22
popping up and then people saying,
7:24
oh, I want to do that.
7:26
But airplane travel is still way
7:28
out of, you know, our
7:31
price range, right? And feasibility at that
7:33
point, air travel was a luxury thing
7:35
akin to like taking a cruise. And
7:38
so what you got was all of these like
7:40
amusement parks popping up on like roadsides
7:42
and stuff like that. Right. And
7:45
so that was the national parks and stuff that became destination
7:48
things that you could drive to
7:50
take your kids to do for
7:52
a vacation without having to fly.
7:55
Yes. The National Park Service
7:57
saw their attendance increase from 30.
7:59
million in 1950 to 172 million in 1970. And
8:05
that's more. That is more. That's a higher
8:08
number. And all of these new campers... I'm no
8:10
mathematician. All
8:12
these new campers had to have gear,
8:15
including tents and sleeping pads and other
8:17
equipment that was made out of materials
8:19
that caused harm to the environment that
8:21
they were being used in. Right? And
8:24
that's not the only issue because several
8:26
articles during this period talk about the
8:29
country's natural spaces being, quote, loved
8:31
to death. People
8:34
overcrowding campsites, crushing local flora,
8:36
causing problems while they try
8:38
to track down and, like,
8:40
watch wildlife. Not to
8:42
mention when you get into taking souvenirs. And
8:45
that's a whole... There's a whole issue, I think it
8:47
was like with the petrified forest where
8:49
they had... I mean, I don't think
8:51
it was just specific to there, but
8:53
that's the example that pops up in
8:56
my hand where they really had to
8:58
start drilling into people's heads like, please
9:00
do not take pieces of the petrified
9:02
forest home with you, or there will
9:04
be less and less petrified... Like, it's
9:06
not a replenishing resource. If
9:08
you keep taking rocks and stuff away
9:10
and petrified wood away, there will be less
9:13
and less of it every year. Right. And
9:16
so there were regulations in place, for
9:18
example, like group sizes, right?
9:21
It wasn't that you couldn't... You
9:23
couldn't have a family reunion of all your
9:26
family anymore at the park without special permits
9:28
and things. Yeah. It was more like... Sure.
9:32
It might be a small family and maybe you guys just
9:35
haven't seen each other all day and you're like, we'll meet
9:37
back here. And then it's like, ah,
9:39
what a great and easy reunion. But
9:41
these rules that were meant to
9:43
help everyone get along with nature
9:45
and enjoy nature had a big
9:48
pushback initially. They were inundated
9:50
with letters from people claiming that
9:52
the rules took all
9:54
the joy and spontaneity out of their
9:56
wilderness adventure. And so...
10:01
So the guidelines were great, but
10:03
what we needed was to educate
10:05
the public, right? Yeah, I will also
10:07
say, listen, I don't want to sound
10:09
like I'm down on human beings, but
10:12
Avatar's really gotten me. The
10:15
thing is... Everything is Avatar these
10:17
days. Listen, he really crawled into
10:19
my heart and planted
10:21
a flag there, but... The
10:24
wrong one. The wrong Avatar.
10:27
What? Oh, I see what you're saying.
10:29
Yes, maybe. Avatar the Last Airbender
10:31
and the Legend of Korra are the superior
10:33
Avatar. I will not die on that hill. Because
10:37
it's just wrong. They are the right one. They
10:39
are the right one. Those are the right one.
10:42
But this idea of, well, you put rules on
10:44
it and now it's not fun anymore. Exactly. Is
10:47
a very human sentiment
10:49
that you see it, man. There are wonderfully,
10:53
I don't know, wild. It's so
10:55
weird. I feel so archaic to
10:58
watch now. But videos, you
11:00
could find news stories and interviews
11:02
from the 80s when
11:04
they outlawed drinking alcohol
11:07
in your car while driving. And you can see
11:09
people like, this just ruined it. I get off
11:11
of work and I've had a hard day working
11:13
in a factory or whatever. I want to be
11:15
able to drink a beer on my way home.
11:17
And it's like watching it now and you're like,
11:19
what are you talking about? It's like
11:21
the same people who complain about seatbelts. Yeah,
11:23
it's wild. It's wild. So,
11:26
by 1987, the National Park
11:28
Service, the United States Forest
11:30
Service, and the Bureau of
11:33
Land Management, they
11:35
collaborated to make
11:38
a pamphlet entitled Leave
11:40
No Trace Land Ethics. Okay.
11:43
So, by 1994, it wasn't just
11:45
a pamphlet, it was a non-profit.
11:49
And the Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Ethics. I
11:51
assume they still had pamphlets. I'm sure that they
11:53
did. They didn't plant a pamphlet and it grew
11:55
into a non-profit. You said that,
11:57
like I thought you were going to say, it wasn't just a pamphlet.
12:00
that it was a bug. But
12:02
you're like, the pamphlets somehow became
12:05
a non-profit pamphlet? Don't feed it after
12:07
midnight. That's wild. Who's
12:09
feeding pamphlets at all, baby? It
12:12
formed the educational resources they
12:14
had around seven original principles
12:16
of leave no trace, and
12:18
here they are. Okay. Plan
12:21
ahead and prepare. Okay. Travel
12:24
and camp on durable surfaces. Okay.
12:28
Dispose of waste properly. Leave
12:30
what you find. Yeah. Minimize
12:33
campfire impacts. Respect
12:36
wildlife. Yes. Be considerate
12:38
to other visitors. Yes. And
12:41
so there's- That's also the rules
12:43
when you visit a school. Yeah.
12:45
You shouldn't build campfires in school, but if
12:48
you do, minimize the impacts. And
12:52
these seven principles were kind
12:54
of like, they were
12:56
expanded and contracted and expanded, contracted over
12:58
time. And so it may
13:02
have originally like began with like 75 or
13:04
so. That's
13:06
too many. But
13:09
in 1999, those seven principles were
13:11
finalized. And
13:15
here's the thing, right? Tell me the thing. It
13:18
was a highly effective campaign.
13:22
Maybe too much. I can't wait. I
13:24
want to hear. Maybe too effective. I want
13:26
to learn, but first, how about a word
13:28
from the Max Plan show? Are
13:40
you tired of being picked on for only wanting
13:42
to talk about your cat at parties? Do you
13:44
feel as though your friends don't understand the depth
13:46
of love you have for your kitty bit? When
13:48
you look around a room of people, do you
13:50
wonder if they know sloths only have to eat
13:52
one leaf a month? Have you ever dumped someone
13:54
for saying they're just not an animal person? Us
13:57
too. She's a Lexus B
13:59
Preston. She's Ellen McAd. and we host Comfort
14:01
Creatures, the show where you can't
14:03
talk about your pets too much, animal trivia
14:05
is our love language, and dragons are just
14:07
as real as dinosaurs. Tune in to Comfort
14:09
Creatures every Thursday on Maximum Fun. What
14:19
is up, people of the world? Do you
14:21
have an argument that you keep having with
14:23
your friends and you just can't seem to
14:25
settle it and you're sitting there arguing about
14:27
whether it's Star Trek or Star Wars, or
14:29
you can't decide what is the best nut,
14:32
or can't agree on what is the best
14:34
cheese? Stop doing that. Listen
14:36
to We Got This with Mark
14:38
and Hal only on MaxFun. Your
14:41
topics ask and answer objectively, definitively,
14:43
for all time. So don't worry,
14:45
everybody. We got this. We got
14:47
this. Okay,
14:54
how effective? How effective?
14:57
There were numerous officials
14:59
and bulletin boards and
15:01
pamphlets. Smokey the Bear. Exactly.
15:04
And articles and
15:06
everything. The kids these days know who Smokey the Bear
15:09
is. I think to say who. We had a conversation,
15:11
Theresa and I talked about this, where because
15:13
so much entertainment now happens on streaming
15:16
and stuff, that I
15:18
don't think kids are exposed to
15:20
the public, the
15:24
PSAs and stuff. We had one growing up
15:26
in Huntington, I don't think
15:28
this was the universal, of Louis the Lightning
15:30
Bug. About how you gotta play safe around
15:32
electricity. You gotta play safe
15:34
around electricity. But
15:36
you had McGruff, you had Smokey the
15:39
Bear, you had Louis the Lightning Bug. You
15:41
got a lot of them. You got a
15:43
lot of them. I don't think those pop
15:45
up for kids anymore, right? I don't know.
15:47
I'm not sure. But
15:49
everybody was hopping on board this bandwagon.
15:52
We've got the Sierra Club, the National
15:54
Outdoor Leadership School, the Boys and Girls
15:56
Scouts of America. And
16:00
the National Outdoor Leadership School, the
16:02
United States Forestry Service, all
16:05
of these nonprofits and
16:07
other groups really
16:10
latched onto this. And
16:13
so it was
16:15
with the best of intentions that
16:18
it was dedicated to the
16:20
responsible enjoyment and active stewardship
16:22
of outdoors, basically. Right? It
16:25
seems like such a good thing. It really does.
16:28
And across the world
16:31
now, people model their
16:34
stewardship kind of programs
16:37
on the Leave No Trace.
16:39
We've got...there's organizations in Australia
16:41
and Canada and New Zealand and
16:43
Ireland. And here's
16:45
the thing. There are
16:48
some very valid criticisms
16:50
of this movement. We
16:53
can all agree that throwing candy
16:55
wrappers into the Grand Canyon is
16:57
some true butthead behavior. Can I
16:59
tell you who especially agrees with that? Bebe McElroy.
17:01
Yeah. Bebe McElroy gets so
17:04
angry about litter. When she sees litter,
17:06
I have seen her get angry to
17:08
tears. And if you're listening,
17:11
if you're listening to this and you
17:13
ever even think about littering, I want
17:15
you to picture my daughter getting angry
17:17
to the point of tears and then
17:19
eat your garbage. Do you hear me? Because
17:23
you even thought about it, you
17:25
eat your garbage. You goat. You're
17:28
a goat now because you
17:30
were even thinking about littering. Eat your
17:32
garbage. That's my new movement,
17:34
my new rule. Only
17:38
if you even think about littering. If
17:40
it crosses your mind, eat your garbage. And that's
17:42
how you're going to learn a new habit. I
17:46
don't want to even think about littering or I'll have
17:48
to eat this garbage. Okay. So
17:51
there are several criticisms that I
17:53
think that definitely are valid.
17:57
For example, in 2002, environmental history... James
18:00
Morton Turner argued that
18:03
the scope of responsibility for Leave No
18:05
Trace isn't actually big
18:07
enough. We've run into this where
18:09
like there's the kind of
18:11
fallacy that like every person
18:14
doing it does their part,
18:16
right? But if you don't
18:19
hold corporations and municipalities accountable,
18:22
then even
18:24
every little person doing every little thing
18:27
they can is not a drop
18:29
in the bucket, right? Yeah. We've also talked about
18:32
this before, I think, but you run into a
18:34
lot with stuff like this where maybe
18:37
what it should have been is like
18:39
the first big step on
18:41
a series of big steps to get to
18:43
a point, but you start doing this thing
18:45
and then everyone's like, okay, we solved it.
18:47
That's it. We don't have, as long as
18:49
we're doing these things, we don't, and
18:51
it's like, no, no, no, no, sorry. That was step
18:54
one. It's like, yeah, but I'm already doing these,
18:56
so I don't want to worry about it anymore,
18:58
which is always, frankly, one of the
19:00
things with like recycling that we could talk about another time,
19:02
but people will be like, no, no, no, no, I
19:04
can use as much as I want because I'm
19:07
putting it in this bin. It's like, no, no,
19:09
hey, that's not, no, no,
19:11
no. So even
19:14
though Leave No Trace focuses
19:16
on protecting the wilderness, right?
19:19
The world is not just
19:21
wilderness. And so what we
19:23
need to do is tackle
19:25
larger issues like the economy
19:27
and consumerism, like you're saying,
19:29
and the environment as a
19:31
whole, not just these patches of
19:33
forest. And that's the thing.
19:36
It's one thing, okay, not to get a little
19:38
preachy for a moment, but when we talk about
19:40
not like littering, right? That's a great start of
19:42
like you're driving down the road, don't throw your
19:44
candy wrapper out the window, right? But
19:47
then also think about when you get a package
19:49
or something, right? And there's like 18 layers
19:51
to get to the thing inside, right? It's
19:53
like, cool, you didn't litter this thing. But
19:55
let's think about the way we
19:57
package stuff the way and that's not something I
20:00
could change is something we can think about
20:03
mindful consumerism, which everyone should
20:05
be thinking about. But that
20:07
kind of thing is next step is like, yes, you didn't
20:09
throw the package out the window. Now
20:11
let's work on less packaging, on
20:14
biodegradable packaging, on packaging that doesn't
20:16
need to be thrown
20:18
away, but can be reused and stuff like that. Exactly.
20:22
And so... We focus too much on
20:24
the recycle, and now the reduce and reuse part. That's
20:27
it. That's it. Speaking of
20:29
the consumerism, right? Outdoor brands
20:31
like REI and like North Face and
20:33
all this kind of stuff, they have
20:36
approved leave-no-trace labels that
20:38
they put on their products, which
20:41
is great for them, but it
20:43
does encourage people to consume more
20:46
because maybe you already have something,
20:48
but you see that REI has
20:50
something that has a leave-no-trace label.
20:52
And so the marketing works on
20:55
you, and you purchase something that
20:57
you don't actually need. This
20:59
is a thing, once again, I feel like I'm
21:01
getting on a little pulpit here, but this is
21:04
a thing we were talking... I was talking
21:06
with Jesse Griffin yesterday about if you ever
21:08
watch... I love watching
21:10
like restoration videos of like, this is a
21:12
coffee grinder from 1912, right?
21:15
And they're like taking it apart and cleaning it and everything.
21:18
And what you find is the way
21:20
that they were constructed was to be like,
21:22
this is the old only coffee grinder you'll
21:24
ever... It didn't have bells and whistles, wasn't
21:26
fancy, but it was like two moving parts.
21:29
And as long as you like maintained it,
21:32
it just was your coffee grinder
21:34
forever, right? And
21:36
then we started getting into like, yeah, but
21:39
then if you're a person who makes coffee
21:41
grinders, you need more coffee, don't you need...
21:43
And that's where it gets into
21:45
the consumerism of making things that are
21:47
designed to break down or trying to
21:49
convince someone that the next... Like well,
21:51
this is the new sleeping bag and
21:53
it's better than the old sleeping bag
21:55
because, question mark. And it's like, okay,
21:57
cool, we're just creating more weight.
22:00
faced from these things. There are
22:02
a couple of reasons for those kind
22:04
of breakdowns. Not only is it made
22:06
more cheaply and quickly, but
22:08
also when things start to
22:10
introduce like computer components that break a
22:12
lot easier. Well, and there's also playing
22:14
about with lessons. Yes, yes. There
22:16
is a very idea of like saying like, and we're
22:18
going to stop updating this one so that you'll buy
22:21
that one. And listen, now I'm
22:23
going to step down from my pulpit and
22:25
step over here into my little shame hypocrite
22:27
corner. I am the type of person
22:29
that's like, oh, a new phone you say, a
22:31
new video game system. So don't get it twisted.
22:33
I'm not saying like, and I'm better at this
22:35
than anyone else. It's just the thing
22:37
that I've definitely become aware of more and more and
22:39
I'm trying to be better about. There are other
22:41
critiques of the Leave No Trace
22:44
movement. Dr. Kiona, who
22:46
is an incredible academic turned
22:48
entrepreneur with a focus on
22:50
education through traveling community, has
22:53
some notes and
22:55
has a beautiful article entitled,
22:58
which I cannot say the
23:01
whole title here, but you'll get the gist, how
23:03
not to be a bullying in
23:06
the outdoors. What's the
23:08
word start with? B. Okay.
23:11
So there are some cultural implications
23:13
of Leave No Trace
23:15
that lead to unintended
23:17
consequences. And
23:19
she puts it straight up racist
23:22
harassment under the guise of L-N-T
23:25
ethics. So
23:28
here are her main takeaways. Indigenous
23:31
people are not usually the
23:33
target of this audience and
23:37
they don't often, like
23:39
we said at the beginning, need to be told,
23:41
leave what you find, right? Dr.
23:44
Patroski Begay, a Navajo outdoor guide
23:46
who gave Dr. Kiona a tour
23:48
of protected land in
23:51
Utah, spoke about how the land
23:53
that they were interacting with had been
23:55
cared for by the Navajo people for
23:57
millennia. And then white
23:59
colonizers. colonized, and then ironically
24:01
created rules to preserve the land that
24:03
was already being lovingly
24:05
protected by the native people. So
24:09
the idea of leaving what you
24:11
find specifically diminishes and
24:13
invalidates the advanced knowledge and
24:16
cultures of indigenous
24:18
practices. Yeah, it's almost like,
24:20
hey, why don't you ask the people who have been
24:22
there how to do it instead
24:24
of saying, like, I think we know. We've
24:27
been here for a short blip
24:29
of time. I think we know. It
24:32
begs the question, who are we protecting this
24:34
land from? Yeah. And
24:36
for. And for. Um,
24:39
also... That's the other thing is how you
24:41
use the land, is like, yes, we're protecting this land. So
24:44
eventually we can build malls on it or whatever.
24:46
It's like, wait, no, hold on. Or
24:48
like, you know, we
24:50
have a problem with wildfires in this
24:53
country, mostly because we
24:55
do not control the
24:58
wildfires that are necessary.
25:00
Right. And everything, when
25:03
you have so much brush and
25:05
undergrowth, it keeps
25:07
all of that kind of
25:09
like dry kindling available for
25:12
an unintended fire. Whereas if
25:14
we were able to, like,
25:18
normally a wildfire
25:22
would take care of that stuff. And so you
25:24
wouldn't have all of that stuff building
25:26
up and building up and building up.
25:28
So that's the problem with keeping wildfires
25:30
away is you need the wildfires and
25:33
it also returns a lot of nutrients to
25:35
the soil, making things better for the other
25:38
things that are growing there. And you know,
25:40
I understand the
25:42
effort to protect wildlife
25:46
and homes, but at what
25:48
cost? Well, and that second
25:50
part, homes, is part of the problem.
25:52
Yeah. Of like, maybe we
25:55
shouldn't build homes here. This is, and here's
25:57
the thing, right? It makes complete sense because
25:59
when you find. some place that's
26:01
beautiful. The desire to
26:03
be there makes complete sense. Right?
26:05
This is a beautiful place. I
26:08
would like to live in a beautiful place. That
26:10
makes complete sense and I get that. But
26:13
I've heard
26:15
from people who work in like wildfire
26:18
services, right? That one
26:20
of the reason nowadays wildfires can
26:23
seem so scary is
26:25
because not because the wildfire encroaches
26:28
into where people
26:30
have been living, but as people
26:33
encroach into where the wildfires
26:36
happen, now you're doing things
26:38
like disrupting where a
26:40
natural break in the wildfire would happen
26:43
because you built a thing there, right?
26:45
When you've added houses there. And
26:47
so now it's like, well yeah, people are
26:49
in danger a lot more from wildfires now
26:52
because there are a lot more people
26:54
where wildfires happen than where they used
26:56
to be. You know that kind of
26:58
thing. I'm a fan of
27:00
controlled burns and staying out
27:02
of the wilderness. Yes. Okay.
27:05
Smoky never said that. Smoky should have
27:07
been like, and also you can prefer
27:09
to prevent forest fires and maybe also
27:11
don't live here. Like I'm a bear.
27:13
This is where I live. Give me
27:15
a house. Do you
27:17
want to trade? You can come live
27:19
in a cave. Okay. The
27:21
next thing is the Leave
27:26
No Trace gives quiet ammunition
27:28
to white supremacy. Oh no. Dr. Kiana
27:30
spoke with
27:32
Rebecca Macaro, a member
27:35
of the, please
27:38
excuse my pronunciation, Pemo
27:42
Kuchakum Nation in
27:44
California who says
27:46
that she specifically was harassed
27:49
while on an educational culture trip to
27:51
pick poppies and chia and other plants
27:53
that have been ancestral foods for
27:56
her community for generations. And
27:58
during one of her approved She
28:02
was harassed by a passing white
28:05
man who was
28:07
yelling at her about the leave no trace,
28:10
leave what you find kind of ideas, right? And
28:13
so although we
28:15
want people to be empowered to
28:17
protect the wilderness, you
28:20
never know what someone is doing, right?
28:23
And it is not your job
28:26
to police other people. Just
28:29
so you know, that's a good umbrella rule,
28:31
not just for leave no trace, but
28:34
a lot of things
28:36
you see nowadays are because somebody
28:38
takes it upon themselves to be
28:41
the rule keeper of an area
28:43
or store or neighborhood or something
28:45
like that. And it's
28:47
don't do that. Hey, don't do that. So
28:51
I think that although it
28:53
has some really great points, we
28:56
want to make sure that we are not making
28:58
sure that other people do it correctly, right? Because
29:02
you first of all, never know what kind of
29:04
permits they already have. And
29:06
they might find enjoyment in different
29:08
ways than you do, right? For
29:10
example, one of
29:13
the tenants that we
29:15
talked about was be considerate of
29:17
other people around you,
29:19
right? In the wild, enjoying their
29:21
own thing. And
29:24
maybe for you, consideration
29:26
means quiet contemplation, right?
29:29
But maybe for someone else, it
29:32
means joyful laughter or singing. It
29:35
means like a drum
29:38
circle. A drum circle, sure. Lots
29:40
of different things it could mean. And
29:43
it is like we said, not anyone else's
29:45
job to tell
29:48
them what they're doing is wrong,
29:50
just like you wouldn't want someone to come up to
29:52
you and say, you are being
29:54
too quiet and still stop it. Yeah, right?
29:56
You're creeving me out. What
30:00
do we do? Be
30:03
cool. Sure. Here
30:06
are some ways to ethically practice.
30:09
Leave no trace. Okay.
30:11
Plan ahead and prepare. That's one of the first ones. That's a
30:13
great one, yes. Right? Look up
30:15
the place you're going to visit. Are there any special concerns
30:18
or regulations? What are the animals like?
30:20
Should you refrain from making a fire because of the
30:23
dry season? Check out their
30:25
website. Okay? Make a
30:27
plan. Also, are there approved places
30:29
to stay? Yes. Because I
30:31
don't know if you all know this. You
30:34
can't just go and be like, I'm camping
30:36
here now, mostly. At least when you're talking
30:38
about like national and state forests and stuff
30:40
like that. Mm-hmm. Have a backup
30:42
plan for extreme weather. Figure out when
30:46
might be the busiest time and try to
30:48
avoid the busiest times. On
30:51
that note, try to use
30:53
the smallest group possible, okay?
30:56
Because the more people who are in your
30:58
party, the more impact you're going
31:00
to make on this space
31:02
that you probably don't actually live in,
31:05
right? Repackage
31:07
your food as best you can to minimize
31:09
waste. And to keep it from bears.
31:11
Mm-hmm. Look into a bear-proof
31:13
bag. You think that if bears are one
31:16
of the animals that you might encounter or
31:19
might be in the general area that you're
31:21
in. And when
31:23
exploring, use a map, a compass, or a
31:25
GPS. That way, you
31:27
can cut down on marking paints
31:30
and like rock herons are flagging the
31:33
trails for yourself. And
31:35
also, if something else
31:37
has been, is there, just leave
31:39
it. Leave it alone. I
31:41
know that there are different reports of
31:44
people making like rock herons in rivers
31:46
and stuff like that. And
31:49
there have been different campaigns to like if you see
31:52
one of these, push it down. It doesn't mean anything.
31:54
It's just destroying the habitat for the fish. Like all
31:56
that kind of stuff, right? Good
31:59
job. Just... Just leave it. Don't make
32:01
any more. Just leave it.
32:03
Because again, that's not your job. The
32:06
people who are, you know, like the
32:08
rangers of the area, they can go.
32:10
They can push those down. But
32:13
just leave it. You could pick up trash though. Okay.
32:16
Yeah. Your trash and any other trash you
32:19
find. Second one,
32:21
traveling camp on durable surfaces. The
32:24
best campsites are found, not made.
32:26
And the best campsites are set out ahead
32:29
of time for you to be there because
32:31
that's what they're made for. Keep
32:35
your campsites small. And
32:37
if you're camping by a lake or a stream, be back at
32:39
least 200 feet so you don't
32:42
disturb the bank of the river or
32:44
the stream. So you don't roll into the
32:46
stream while you're sleeping. Sure. Stick to
32:48
the trails and walk single file
32:50
in the middle of the trail so that
32:52
you don't disturb the flora of the fauna
32:54
on either side. And if you have
32:56
to go off the trail to relieve
32:59
yourself, I
33:01
mean, you don't want to like do
33:04
that in the middle of the trail, right? Do
33:07
your business real quick. That doesn't violate leave
33:09
no trace because even a bear poops in
33:11
the woods, right? They do. Okay. I've been
33:13
wondering now and no one's ever answered
33:15
it for me. But you do have
33:18
to dispose of it properly. If
33:20
you cannot get to a facility, you need
33:23
to dig a hole that is at least
33:25
six to eight inches deep. And
33:28
again, 200 feet from water camps
33:30
or trails and then cover the hole
33:32
when you're done. That's
33:34
for solid waste. Remember
33:36
to pack it in and pack it out. Inspect
33:39
your campsite, food prep areas, rest areas,
33:41
any other places you used before you
33:43
move on. Packing out all of
33:45
your trash and leftover food and any of that
33:47
other stuff. If you're
33:49
washing dishes, which is something that we used to
33:51
do at the Girl Scout camps that I would
33:54
go to, make
33:56
sure that you are again, 200 feet
33:58
from lakes or streams and you use a
34:00
very small amount of biodegradable soap
34:04
and don't throw it
34:06
back in the river. Drain and
34:08
scatter your dish water when you're
34:10
done using it. Okay? All
34:12
right. Leave what you
34:14
find means, like you said, take pictures,
34:16
not petals. Photographs and stuff are
34:18
perfect. No souvenirs, just memories and
34:20
pictures. That's it. Five souvenirs and a
34:23
gift shop. Like
34:25
I said, don't build structures or furniture
34:27
or dig trenches on any
34:29
of that stuff. Don't do any of
34:32
that stuff. But again, it's not your
34:34
business. What other people are doing, assume
34:36
kind intent and proper permits. When you
34:38
see someone harvesting something, interacting with something
34:41
in a way, you wouldn't, you
34:43
know, use your judgment. A lady with
34:46
a group of kids respectfully harvesting chia
34:48
seeds is way different from a
34:50
group of dumb teenagers
34:52
throwing trash
34:54
at trees. Minimize
34:57
the impact of your campfire means
35:00
lighting fires in permitted places
35:02
like established firings, pans
35:04
and mounds. Keeping them
35:07
small, making sure that all the wood
35:09
and coals are burned to ash and
35:11
scattering and raking them when you're finished.
35:13
Don't just dump water on it because especially
35:15
like big logs and stuff, you don't
35:17
know if it's all the way out. Those things can steam
35:19
and reignite for a while. Sand and
35:21
dirt is a much better way to ensure
35:23
that it is completely out. Smother it is
35:26
way better. And check safety
35:28
advisories. You may not even be allowed to
35:30
make a campfire at that point. Respect
35:33
the wildlife. Enjoy and
35:35
observe from a distance. Do not
35:37
feed anything.
35:41
We talked about storing food securely,
35:43
controlling pets or leave them at
35:45
home. Ask
35:47
the ranger at your park if
35:50
there are any sensitive wildlife time. For
35:52
example, is it a mating season? Is
35:54
it a nesting season? All
35:56
that kind of stuff is very important. It makes
35:59
your visit. it better and it makes the
36:02
wildlife there better. Be
36:04
considerate of other visitors. Like we
36:06
said, this is the one
36:08
that is brought up the most but
36:11
also the most forgotten, right? Yeah. Because
36:14
you shouldn't harass people. Yeah,
36:16
just in general. Just in general. So
36:19
being considerate means acting in a
36:21
considerate way in the same
36:23
way that you would want to be treated,
36:25
right? Yeah. So there are
36:27
very, very, very few situations where you
36:29
would ever need to approach another camper
36:32
or hiker or wildlife enjoyer to voice
36:34
your opinion. It is not your job.
36:37
Ask yourself several questions before you
36:39
even do. Questions like, why
36:41
am I interacting with this person? Do I
36:44
see something that could actively hurt them right
36:46
now or I'd like to protect them
36:48
from? Or am I
36:50
just sharing my opinion, an extension of
36:52
me policing a person's experience? So that I
36:54
feel superior to them. Exactly. You
36:56
are not a ranger. So
36:58
if you feel that you
37:02
still need to
37:04
say something, don't and go
37:06
get someone who's in charge. Okay?
37:09
Great. Step
37:12
downhill of the trail when you're
37:14
encountering a pack stock. That's like
37:16
a donkey carrying things, right? And
37:19
then do your best to
37:21
personally avoid
37:24
loud noises so that other people
37:27
can enjoy themselves, right? But if
37:29
someone is, like I said, if someone is
37:31
being loud, singing or expressing joy, that's
37:35
beautiful too. Consider
37:38
that instead of chastising that
37:40
person, walk somewhere else quieter. Yeah.
37:43
And consider this. We
37:45
want to say thank you to our editor, Rachel,
37:47
without whom we could not make this show. Thank
37:49
you to our researcher, Alex, without whom we could
37:52
not make this show. And thank you for listening.
37:54
We could make a show without you. That would
37:56
be silly. I also want to say thank
37:58
you to my wife, Teresa. She is my Rock.
38:00
She is the Rock. And we want to let
38:03
you know a couple things. One, we
38:05
just announced a bunch of My Brother, My Brother
38:07
Me and Adventure Zone tours. If you go to
38:09
the McElroy.family, you will
38:11
find all the information there.
38:13
But we've got upcoming shows
38:15
at the end of April
38:17
here in Chicago. Being My Brother, My Brother
38:19
Me on April 24th is sold out, but
38:21
we still have a few tickets for the
38:24
April 25th Adventure Zone. And then we're going
38:26
to be at C2E2. You can find all
38:28
that information and all the new tours by
38:30
also going to bit.ly slash McElroyTours. We've got a
38:32
bunch of merch. If you haven't seen me yet,
38:35
go to mcelroymerch.com. What
38:37
else, Teresa? We always thank Brent
38:39
Brentalfos Black for writing our theme music, which
38:41
is available as a ringtone where those are
38:43
found. Also, thank you to Bruja Betty Pinup
38:45
Photography for the cover picture of our fan-run
38:47
Facebook group, Schmanners Fanners. If you love to
38:50
give and get excellent advice from other fans,
38:52
go ahead and join that group today. Always
38:55
send your topic submissions, your
38:57
questions, your idioms to schmannerscastatgmail.com.
39:00
And if you are interested in
39:02
this topic some more, please check
39:04
out the Instagram community of Unlikely
39:07
Hikers. Also, Dr. Keownis website is
39:09
great. And you can check out
39:11
the Urban Wilderness Program for another
39:13
great resource, bringing everyone
39:16
together to enjoy the
39:18
wilderness. And that's going to do it. Join us again
39:20
next week. No RSVP required.
39:22
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39:24
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