0:00

Would

0:00

like to tell you about another History Podcast

0:02

which takes an in-depth.

0:04

Look at the second world war. It's

0:07

called have ways of making you talk and

0:10

it's go hosted by historian. James Holland

0:13

and comedian elmarie James

0:15

rights bringing books about the war and

0:18

I was fascinated by the subject.

0:20

This

0:21

episode is all about the dambusters and

0:23

the man who the raid guy Gibson. If

0:27

you like what you hear, find

0:28

the link in the notes or search.

0:31

For we have ways, whatever

0:33

you get your podcast. you.

0:47

Welcome. To we have ways of making talk with

0:49

me al Murray and, James

0:51

Holland, and we are

0:54

on location origins, yeah, we have

0:56

we are as this is pretty special. On we were going

0:58

to absence of us on our if I was gonna was

1:00

going to do Kendrick was going to do, can you

1:02

guess where we, are? Another the debris

1:04

by prevailing FCC trodden, on it because

1:07

was going to read out I'm Ira thought

1:09

I'm not alone know this is signed up

1:11

for outgoings it's. An outgoing cipher

1:13

message from headquarters, Bomber Command Jonas

1:16

to I'm from Amnesty Whitehall Degree,

1:19

of Priority Most. immediate text

1:22

message most secret operation

1:25

chastise immediate attack

1:27

of targets ex wife said approved

1:29

execute The first suitable

1:32

opportunity. There

1:35

we go and my most of us has been opportunists

1:37

a while you.

1:39

You're. You're the expert chance when was that

1:41

was the one day the sixteenth of May nineteen forty

1:43

three was that the first was that the actually the

1:45

first said I they had. All ya

1:47

think it was something he was authorized the day before

1:49

from the bride, the old over Friday or something think

1:51

they've been a, then the need is a sort. Of funny do

1:54

getting ready what they thought sixteenth,

1:56

yeah, I guess as a society that's interesting, I miss

1:58

of it, so they just.

2:00

Along. With it they didn't yeah, and the

2:02

weather was right and the moonlight was right and

2:04

yeah I mean interesting though it's reduces

2:06

because if you can look at the. Original weather

2:08

reports and so what happens is you go there

2:10

when for briefing in the early Paul the afternoon.

2:13

navigators Then.

2:17

Skippers of years, Lancasters. That's

2:21

where they were told what the target was going to be and given

2:23

the weather briefing from the Met officer.

2:25

And dumb there were told it was

2:28

gonna be no wind whatsoever program,

2:30

be zero wins was thus us by good

2:32

because the having to fly by very low level

2:34

we enjoy using dead reckoning really good

2:37

idea of your. new navigation i don't

2:39

really work

2:40

That. Height would like about one hundred feet to

2:42

the whole idea was you go hundred feet so you're under the

2:44

radar yep and when people talk about

2:46

the arms going under the. Radar that they literally

2:49

we're going on to the right are unfounded, that's because the

2:51

coverage of the of wanted like Commander Miles

2:53

an hour or so or the or the games. On yeah, two

2:55

hundred and twenty miles an hour from we my that say

2:58

rom. That's

3:00

very, very difficult and promises

3:02

easier when you're flying of a flat land and lot of it is

3:05

in. zoo going out from literature which

3:07

is pretty flat and then you have the north sea which oversees

3:10

flattered that is like death and then

3:12

you go over the netherlands which is pretty

3:14

flat ah and out he saw skip

3:16

pretty heady once you so as it's do gets that

3:18

are damaged areas when kind of sort of West

3:21

or east rover of the of the roof industrial

3:23

heartland in western Germany where

3:25

gets quite hilly and it's quite problematic but

3:28

the most part it's okay but.

3:30

it's interesting that in on the on the flight

3:32

there are some problems caused by wind which

3:35

has not been predicted

3:37

Ah avenged this with assists front of my before

3:40

his meteorologist. This

3:42

raises about the day whether as I

3:44

was gonna sort of you know they got lucky by suggested

3:46

a gun on the fists ah but.

3:48

but simon keeling am i

3:51

first got an a when i was looking to the dams right

3:53

and we were looking at the original whether charles

3:55

would have used to predict the weather on the night

3:57

of the sixteen seventy for mates and he said that

4:00

Then. Room, he said, "I can tell you there's a when

4:02

that and, and this is why the was been

4:04

winded, it would be normally wind and of come down.

4:06

It wouldn't have been very significant, but it would def am not,

4:08

of course, for all hammers, the dear old, less

4:10

Mumbai, the nyt New Zealander he

4:12

gets hit by flag.

4:15

These. Crossing the because I don't know he's using

4:17

the wrong because these in the wrong place or he hasn't

4:19

touched it so is gone either one of us are flat plus

4:22

the. Evidence noise votes to nothing

4:24

to do with him and properties that not size right

4:26

it is radio and but ain't come

4:28

you can't really came for something like this. Extra,

4:31

need to communicate with your through the and

4:33

the Iraqi ever in Lancaster you've got

4:35

amount of a laxative two engines on

4:37

at quarter reds and eat was just.

4:40

Unbelievable says so noisy

4:42

the whole thing shaking all the rest of it's I

4:44

was four engines even

4:46

it sort of crazy, you know, is it's

4:49

eat unless you got your. Income you just cannot

4:51

function, say plasma has no choice

4:53

but to turn around and bright, but

4:56

that's another get shot that necklace what

4:58

we've done here is we pulled straight

5:00

into. This subject to the dams right see the everyone,

5:02

knows his, acquittal about

5:05

I'm a and as we spent in the other week

5:07

on the on the podcast that the. The still

5:09

nichols the dam busters is filmed black

5:11

and white, to make it appropriate. to

5:13

the second process of

5:16

got sack of latin black or white but

5:18

what is

5:20

What is the point of the dam's right is

5:22

eighty after all?

5:25

Harris Bomber Command of

5:27

Pincers Obama Commander been through this terrible

5:30

business of realizing that they can't hit.

5:33

Then. A bond or twenty base, and I the

5:36

but report tells you that which comes

5:38

out in the summer of ninety forty one with a tells

5:40

you that you're not getting. Within ten miles of

5:42

the targets the navigation

5:45

is basically impossible and this leads

5:47

to sort of sort of confluence

5:49

of things to didn't you know that?

5:52

leads to the euphemistic idea of area

5:54

bombing and be housing

5:56

civilians which equals m is

5:59

easy my say The area bombing I'm

6:01

give him his him or we just we just make sure

6:03

the on in their houses anymore here. It.

6:07

Doesn't fit any of that this rate is

6:09

the is the time metric opposite of that isn't it

6:11

is it's awful flying super low level that

6:13

isn't that isn't happening with A? Model for it's funny

6:16

Moonlight I'm is a single command

6:18

because he's pretty ambivalent about because

6:20

he yes you can see but they can

6:22

see you and so on so.

6:25

Wanna see this right why on Earth

6:27

is this happening because it doesn't sit

6:30

the? picture tool and the

6:32

movie makes of male of high risk

6:34

i don't believe panacea targets and

6:36

state the idea that which is offering

6:38

opposition to the american idea that you bumble

6:41

bearing success he palm oil refineries

6:43

and what you are doing is bombing civilians Why

6:46

is this right, why is it happening? Yes,

6:49

it's really easy because because.

6:52

Then. Strategic air campaign against Germany is just

6:54

not a flatline, is not even smooth graph,

6:56

it's is one this or wobbles about will live the ice,

6:59

and I think Will you got out with the time's, right? It's

7:01

it's kind of got some middle. You know, is May 1943.

7:04

So the war's been on for quite long Still got

7:06

quite a long time run. My

7:12

stock is just by, by Sunday night. Football song,

7:14

was really heavy bombers into pulverizing,

7:16

everything inside as thousand by.

7:18

Now. If I

7:24

respected Obama come on in February 1942,

7:26

and that

7:28

is about the same time. Do the lancasters of coming in and

7:30

they haven't got enough. He's got kind of just a Hundreds

7:33

or side. Stuff of any April

7:36

19th, August 8th, which is low-level raid where

7:39

they, they come for

7:44

you, but it's like

7:49

sack of over come back yet. So just

7:51

like the hey don't

7:53

you love me and you can go you can go back

7:55

to it yet. Party.

7:57

Incredibly, but it's incredibly dangerous. than isn't worth

7:59

it. Because. Of the goes to stay on so that

8:01

we have to go into of a kind of sort of eighteen thousand

8:03

feet, twenty five thousand feet, and he just have to decide.

8:06

By everything's yeah and okay

8:09

to you, ideally you want to hit those you want to hit the

8:11

crop factory in I'm

8:13

in essence, but if you to Tom

8:15

just. Just.

8:17

Maybe I'm a little we vote no got whole city

8:19

maybe you kill the guy that works in the crop factory

8:21

floor lease and he might have been difficult you my ever

8:24

the devil you give him you give him a.

8:26

sleepless nights

8:27

And. Yeah, and so on

8:29

and other not of them will hit the hit, the fan of

8:32

the will you factor in disrupt disruption

8:34

and was so create friction by the puts.

8:36

A where you could have this money you got this tipping point,

8:39

he may nineteen forty three when

8:41

new navigational aids coming in

8:43

h to s Yobo, I

8:45

buy the first sort. Of a nice to as rid of the toughest

8:47

ground mapping radar, so that big

8:51

strides heads up until that you just had tea

8:53

which is coming which. Is kind of sort of homing

8:55

device deck which has come in the coming year before.

8:58

Then. Other talking about report, which comes out in the summer ninety

9:00

forty one that none of those a to their the as were

9:03

dead reckoning you've just got kind of, you know. Scratchy

9:05

papers and bitter actors and actresses and things

9:07

and pencil and it was

9:09

really kind of enough to do the job and.

9:12

and so fine that may nineteen forty three it is really

9:14

starting to go off step but that

9:16

next step hasn't really been tested

9:19

so

9:20

Then. Kind of the air raid the

9:23

and under sort of moment whether actually

9:25

begins to calculate is to Hamburg

9:27

afterwards wet right where those things do

9:29

dual, but that's but. That's after

9:31

this, yes, it does end of July beginning of August,

9:33

we have would free, so that's after this and the

9:35

all out strategic air command as a busy. Harrison,

9:38

seven fifty nine, forty two and he says

9:40

is gonna sing at least year to get my false

9:42

readings superimposing, but when

9:45

we really go all out. Is gonna

9:47

be the early part of multiple tree because that is by the time

9:49

that need navigation techniques will come in and

9:52

that's the time we'll all have more Lancasters

9:54

and. The an odd lot more aircraft I'm

9:57

an F hills and one of problems that house

9:59

and back.

10:00

He. Rotted Americans in the a fair force in summer

10:02

of ninety four to take because suddenly they got have

10:04

is insanely concrete, Rumba is and always

10:06

run by, so can we make? Obama C'mon, of luckily my for

10:08

the fair forces, well, yeah, so that's

10:11

that sat back and so

10:13

did it just it just is up, is big

10:15

all process.

10:17

Vo? Harris's kind of accepting

10:20

that the on the navigational aids he still thinks

10:22

there's a limit to what can be achieved in

10:24

nineteen forty three, probably even and ninety forty

10:27

four, yeah. Which is why he still goes for this or suppressor

10:29

accept of and also he's.

10:33

Moore's house is to trade in all sorts of

10:35

in all sorts of ways and is a

10:38

controversial figure, one of the things he's very,

10:40

very a. The non is making

10:42

sure is cruz morals.

10:44

The old top, so what is not going to do

10:46

is give them things we're. Then.

10:49

them jobs to do were more all my

10:52

I'm right, collapse

10:54

right yeah she's voiced holding back

10:56

from, giving that bomber command

10:58

tasks it can't complete basically.

11:00

easier a and that's component

11:03

In. His command of Bomber Command as much as

11:05

much as anything else is new, yes, it is

11:07

really trying to make sure that they don't

11:10

run before they before they can. Walk

11:12

as it were this is, it gets left

11:14

out, doesn't it sometimes of his

11:16

depictions, and it as member of opened wouldn't

11:19

we are driving up? Here I

11:21

am, changed my coast. The

11:24

world rights and talked about took to pass

11:26

some of this and a I compared

11:28

to our think is a comparison away the Montgomery

11:30

getting hold of charming guy runs things we can

11:32

I do this all me and these things just

11:35

cannot do I. get

11:37

know and he sacked the people he thinks the useless

11:40

and then when a name times

11:43

he doesn't try and do

11:45

anything you think sites army can't do Because

11:47

he doesn't want the damage, it's more all.

11:50

And also it's their confidence

11:52

in him, his confidence in their be choice is protecting

11:54

us and Harris is doing that as as.

11:57

A just as much as someone like Montgomery's

11:59

me. He wants them to have confidence in him

12:02

and he wants to have confidence these guys and he wants

12:04

to make sure their morale holds up as

12:06

much as anything else right yes but.

12:09

also the other thing is also he truly believes

12:12

that

12:13

Warming can save the slaughter of the first, well,

12:15

yeah, so he truly believes a British

12:17

and allied lies will be saved by the trying

12:19

things. Huge amounts of bombing

12:22

and eat over and as actually.

12:24

Looking at it from. the sigma was

12:27

strategic air campaign for not to put in ensenada

12:29

forty five studies on arguable He.

12:32

Does because Britain and America and Canada

12:34

and all those involved in the morning west that,

12:37

Cassie the saw considerably less yeah

12:39

no the other major competence and that is. In

12:41

large part, due to the kind of effects of arable

12:44

me and get him out of effortless put into that,

12:46

and odyssey, you know, it's at fifty

12:48

five thousand. People killed in Bomber Command

12:50

in the Second World War is huge number,

12:54

but that's only kind of four divisions or something

12:57

It has already it is it is a big

12:59

savings loan there's no question

13:01

about it I'm. bluffing

13:03

was really interesting it is that what harris

13:06

accepts is that Must

13:08

heavy bombing. Is the way forward?

13:11

The Holy Grail of Bombing is one plane,

13:13

one bomb, yeah.

13:15

Which is what we get which is why I guess he obviously

13:18

always thought he bought he thought that is Oregon that's

13:20

why we've never had bombing see Severino of us

13:22

can ever again on the scale of the Second World

13:24

War but. what bonds

13:26

wallace who is the deputy chief

13:29

The designer'a thick as aviation

13:32

down some done at brooklyn swim weybridge

13:34

in a what he's.

13:36

The Jesse and has been thinking about ever

13:38

since the end of the first what war and

13:40

as the this new war is sort of some

13:42

sort of.

13:44

brewing on the horizon is one

13:46

if we can do this one, Bama,

13:48

one vs. one bomb in

13:50

a or handful of bombers

13:53

in the handful of very, very big bombs, wouldn't

13:55

that just save everybody Khalid of

13:57

hassles and he's? And

14:00

what you get is that kind of.

14:02

The downside is that meeting of that's

14:04

extreme.

14:05

Harris's extreme yeah so it's a

14:08

panacea the holy grail that

14:10

the kind of smoke one bomb one

14:12

plane vs.

14:14

by ain't gonna work is gonna be mass bodes

14:16

well as means it's one of the thinks the film trust

14:19

thomas' supposed book bonds wallace's bagging

14:21

on desk sang new just

14:23

isn't to me and in bloody listen to me if

14:25

any wasn't brick wall of iraq as you say

14:27

he's he says did you know he's

14:30

very high up affect us who

14:32

are out of regular the military industrial complex

14:35

to the sick the sixties term that

14:37

you know if the uk is

14:39

military industrial complex or

14:41

warfare state because his

14:43

Then. Right in the by hold of him right at the very heart

14:45

of it's a massive manufacturer, the people

14:48

building everything they owned, I mean they

14:50

and separate for, you know? She was U.S. example

14:52

of how well that was going for them in

14:54

terms of a orders from the government

14:56

for it since I was I'm a vast numbers tangier,

14:59

you know? The EM field is part of because you know yes

15:01

off, but so and so on, so it's not

15:03

like it's not like bombs, Wallace is

15:06

some bloke living in A. Vicarage say anything these

15:08

chaps citizens to me he's actually eating

15:10

is actually incredibly important and

15:13

that's why take it seriously.

15:15

Well, it's it's, really a yes or no,

15:17

said the thing I think about our phones, Wallace is,

15:19

is that he is.

15:21

Nobody's. Not taken seriously, it's

15:23

just the in A comes up with this idea: the Victory BAMA,

15:26

which is a kind of six engine massive boma

15:28

ye can fly kind of three hundred. Miles an hour for thrust

15:30

copy of analytical big fight, forty thousand feet,

15:33

and it drops be Trump's what he calls an earthquake bomb,

15:35

yes, which is what actually what the grand.

15:37

Slam, the tend to an effect we as

15:39

know I'd the idea about this is you dropped this bomb,

15:42

it goes on to the gonna cry, snuff cry every collapses

15:44

and in. You don't need to fight war because you've destroyed

15:46

their industry and that capability of fight

15:49

he walks and so.

15:52

You don't actually that is the principles in

15:54

a way of the atomic bomb, I mean that is

15:56

what you're trying to do, but he's coming at it from a slight

15:58

you haven't thought about kind of.

16:00

That Asian and like comes and it's also it's

16:02

also in the in the sort of. Then.

16:04

Sort of antecedent to that to the

16:06

a dive idea of effects by suppression,

16:08

shocking or which is the thing right to put up with

16:11

the we saw in the last Gulf. War wasn't it yet,

16:13

will you do something so spectacular the other side

16:15

go out of the amount of that I write off

16:17

I'm out with on of that happened again? The

16:20

and.

16:20

I suppose that dinner the time's right

16:23

kind of fits that to dismiss as

16:25

well since of usually when five out of his isis

16:27

or to answer my question why is the Times

16:29

writes acts as a source of since?

16:33

i well i'll go up going to have to a country that bob

16:35

going to recover over because of the point about by the bonds

16:37

want to stories is The

16:39

movie depicts is absolutely incorrect.

16:42

So. The misery been doesn't come off, yes, because

16:45

it's sunny, nineteen forty, and there isn't the capacity

16:47

is of it's one because we need to build what we this

16:49

the five types. Of aircraft beaver broke is the

16:52

and, of the misery of aircraft production, nineteen forty,

16:55

we just got make what we've got already and

16:57

lots of them and everything else and. Sort of canceled. and

16:59

stirling the halifax already the they've been laid

17:01

down they've been they've been commissioned yes

17:03

and the and the last to sort on hold and you know

17:05

this canceled so And

17:08

actually the of the heavy bomber

17:10

that can fly at three hundred miles an hour that auto

17:12

mitchell has been designing. That goes

17:14

off the peg as well, Ghana disorders

17:16

hung up on his diaper, but pony because.

17:19

They're. Focusing on these for the coffins that so,

17:22

he just doesn't quite get enough traction for this

17:24

is, I ever thought, well, this is really, really interesting,

17:26

a really odd this, but. Practically act as can't see

17:28

how we can smell it this way to bomb us and I

17:30

can see how this bomb's gonna work, say sort of fools

17:33

budweiser, but he. Still thinking about all this doesn't think

17:35

about things that he could aches and then he gets

17:37

the idea of this sort of bouncing Bob so that he

17:39

becomes obsessed with dance. As he knows

17:41

that the brewers is completely

17:43

supplied by this in a you need water any

17:45

water for the. population

17:47

in the cities but you also need water for

17:50

industrial processes as well yeah scifi

17:52

to destroy the water supply send

17:54

your factories what work in the earth and that's

17:57

good thing you know so it's effects of the same

17:59

principle The of quite bomb from the

18:01

victory bomber.

18:03

But. Deliver defect is delivered

18:05

in a different wine is delivered by this concept of the

18:07

Bouncing Ball, but originally the

18:09

Bouncy Bomb is designed as an anticipated

18:11

start shipping method is so. The idea is that

18:13

you got the tapas you got these warships

18:15

of the Crate Marine and called up in Norway

18:18

in these fjords is now if yours for

18:20

protecting. them is huge great curtains

18:23

this vertical net which is strong

18:25

across the fjord on which hangs

18:27

on which prevents at submarine

18:29

going in and barring torpedo it"

18:31

Yeah. That's the principle behind it, so how'd you

18:33

get round the nets and how'd you get an

18:35

aircraft you can't get in there called close enough because it's too

18:38

vulnerable because they've? Got, you know, antioxidant

18:40

defenses and stuff on the ships and roundabout so

18:42

you need to get further away, so what do you drop a bomb

18:45

which can then bounced over the? Top of the net,

18:47

yeah, so it was originally defined

18:49

as both A and as he gets the packing

18:51

of the it's blackett he is

18:54

a the development of the. Of the placket

18:56

number fourteen bombsight that you have done

18:58

it for the are African Americans Russia, the

19:01

the, northern and he's the thank

19:03

god he gets called I like. This idea and he's

19:05

the one he rendered the funds, the money

19:07

to get this project up and running,

19:10

but suddenly he bonds want us realize the high

19:12

on A. Minute we still got the same

19:14

anti Torpedo net some in the front of these huge

19:16

great times, the Mrna, the zopa, but

19:18

also the I'm the ada damp the

19:20

aid of. Time doesn't feel the Ruhr it fits castle

19:23

but if these a monster

19:25

edifices these all these are engineering

19:28

projects which are the proud, the pride

19:30

of Germany. You know every schoolchild

19:33

knows who designed these

19:35

dimes and knows about these times is it sort

19:37

of like German brunel? ah

19:40

yes absolutely that's exactly what

19:42

it's like net by proud of it and it's the conquest

19:44

of nature and all this kinda stuff so

19:46

if you can get over these torpedo and that said these

19:48

times you could maybe destroy these damn so what are you and

19:51

the probe the sticking point is how

19:53

do you get enough charge to the face

19:55

of the damn to expect it and is

19:57

it isn't it isn't accident while

19:59

the

20:00

During a it's the road's research lab

20:02

road research lab where that's where I'm which

20:04

is our I'm out there were Heathrow is

20:06

now.

20:07

On. The west of London they have is Debauchery,

20:09

which is for testing row services and processes

20:12

Ryan, and they got these many times there and they're doing

20:14

works and I got these. [Tanks] Teddington as well

20:16

they can practice and thanks and what

20:18

he realizes is that they're

20:20

trying to destroy these model downs that

20:22

they don't need anymore, I'm what they do, they. Put the charge

20:24

under the water. Then. completely

20:27

destroyed this little model them, and

20:29

the thing about these gravity times is they are always

20:31

proportionately the same how the Bengals,

20:34

yeah, you go see, say something that is. Just

20:36

a model, if you upscale it to the size of the Mirna

20:38

damn, is still the same thoughts or whatever

20:40

destroys the damn the model damn times

20:43

it's by the same. amount to get to the real

20:45

scale of the madame, you've got the right amount

20:47

of charge" And he realizes

20:50

that can be countered by Lancaster Bomber because

20:52

is only nice about four tones.

20:54

You look around there are so many ways to

20:56

make a difference at Capella University,

20:58

our Flex. Format gives you at different

21:00

way to earn your degree, take courses at your

21:03

speed, move on whenever your ready

21:05

education should fit your life, learn

21:07

more at Capella Dot edu.

21:11

So what he developed his depth charge, the

21:13

hits the side of the that says skips

21:15

across the water over the net, his

21:17

side of the damn, then sinks twenty foot.

21:20

Then. Explodes an explosion

21:22

combined with the pressure by the

21:24

water, the debt for the water a buffet is

21:26

what we'll do the damage as long as you hit

21:29

it dead center of. Have

21:31

some particular discussing particular hi, you

21:33

see, mean, why not just drop your

21:35

earthquake bomb on them is that

21:37

well with that was true is fucked because freebies?

21:40

Thinking was is to sue difficult to do the accurate

21:42

state, of course, do the accurately the beauty

21:44

about bout the, but if you're dropping from above

21:47

you got to hit. It directs on the top yeah

21:49

on and up have sip of damn even

21:52

is. one of the scale of mana damn of as oprah

21:54

or the all the aid us is fc teaching

21:56

from kind of even two thousand feet

21:58

or land gonna fifteen Or? Whatever

22:01

and you can't getting clean own even from one hundred twenty

22:03

feet, that's really, really hard one, but great

22:05

thing about doing bouncing bomb is you're skipping

22:07

towards. That see you got this mass CIA

22:09

dollars for as long as you get chi roughly

22:11

in the middle of on it, then sinks against

22:13

the wall that explodes Sub. I. See where

22:15

your for it is actually not bomb, I'd say

22:17

obvious depth charts and mine is it's mine,

22:20

yes. The problem

22:22

with this for Harris is that.

22:25

He hit, you know, he's been hearing body goes

22:27

the primacy among these guys come out with these

22:29

loopy wacko idea is

22:31

one after the other.

22:33

The problem for some reason for Bomber

22:35

Command to better do this is such.

22:38

great but we operate a eighteen thousand

22:40

feet so how we gonna get some what when

22:42

combined with the other bouncy ball but we come back

22:44

to that thing of giving first things that are impossible

22:47

and then they will get killed in your moral or immoral

22:49

goes down the toilet seats to said succeed

22:52

your calculation says yes and so

22:54

to do this deliver this you're talking about in

22:56

house and entire squadron of lancaster as

22:58

which looks like it's total suicide missions

23:01

delivering i'm wacko

23:03

plan to kind of bounce bomb across the surface

23:06

and jump over torpedo ness the seems enough

23:08

okay perhaps may be in the kind of wildest

23:10

dreams as my come off but it seems like very

23:12

well dream and it seems the could

23:15

have

23:16

Benefit to Risk Race show doesn't

23:18

seem good enough you.

23:21

Weapons. What is really interesting is that he is very,

23:23

very well connected and he's a ferocious

23:25

networker and he absolutely doesn't

23:27

take know as an answer and he recruits various

23:29

people to. His cause I'm one of them is Fred Winter

23:31

Boss and purposes speak who's working for US

23:33

Secret Service him in the Air

23:36

Ministry of Intelligence and,

23:38

he has one of the best address books in

23:40

london and he knows absolutely everybody

23:42

and

23:43

One gets him on size and went boss

23:45

was presents a whole can of damn busting

23:48

plan it gets reposted and,

23:50

what for Winter Awesome does as he senses

23:52

very, very clever letter,

23:55

to one of the. deputy chief

23:57

says yeah stuff implying

23:59

that

24:00

There it is amazing weapon that

24:02

the Navy or stealing a march on the ARIA it

24:04

would be terrible shame not to kind of the.

24:07

dead that important never knew about this and of

24:09

golden opportunity to do something really spectacular

24:11

get one of the navy has been go missing

24:13

that costs and weaves his way to portal

24:15

which is exactly what he's hoping

24:18

to day and portal is it today as chief

24:20

of the airsoft important guys him

24:22

on balance i like this think this is this

24:24

is worth it's just a the very moment where

24:26

web wallace's being completely rebuffed

24:29

so much so that the head of vickers is said

24:31

you know what do you just totally uncle for drop

24:33

well and that is greeley on the twenty sixth of february

24:36

nineteen forty three

24:40

That think my ninety four to three, six, one

24:42

seven squadron call sign cool.

24:45

Sixty four Iverson CIA officers,

24:47

sixty five of his senior nc O's,

24:49

hundred and ten. The ranks year in five.

24:53

Not enough known flight is that know frankly

24:55

up. fifteen a

24:57

flight] So

25:00

this blackboard has who the planet saw?

25:03

The what the code to code signs of yeah,

25:06

be I'm Ah, whether

25:08

they're in service, yes? The

25:10

load.

25:12

Which? Is a cool one time store and

25:14

stores across as the up case yep keep know

25:16

which is code name for the bouncing baguette

25:18

originally, designed as spare and. Then become

25:21

cylindrical, it turns into barrel to paralyse

25:23

yep, looks like it an enormous barnabas,

25:26

it looks like gonna think if you enter I'm

25:28

village fight someone would cut. A quarter ounce of and

25:30

uses a barbecue Mississippi

25:32

such, gibson

25:34

went on a. gibson then you are

25:37

young as he's one of the flight young is exciting

25:39

young is one of the fly quantities any to see guys

25:41

just marty californians his arm

25:43

is bikes have chap ease up something

25:46

more on raises because he's been rescued from

25:48

the say couple times pts is

25:50

already done tour of based on his fifty emissions

25:53

are in the middle east actually say hasn't flown like

25:55

this before until we just joined fit sounds

25:57

wasn't moves you doing saudis in the middle east and

26:00

The user name is in Wellington's right

26:02

and then he comes back over need it he come on

26:04

C flight and fifty seven sports hall of

26:06

safe like come over into six

26:08

one seven squadron when it's formed in him.

26:10

a second half of march nineteen forty three Moby

26:16

as style.

26:17

David. Shannon and I see this is this picture here,

26:19

think is that the David shiners of with, oh, look, it's

26:22

source to decide where is it would give his

26:24

office is. What about for me to buy for me to

26:26

ask where is like a cubism it's the

26:28

up green doors reassuringly,

26:30

amp reassuring them institutional damp

26:32

on the ceiling yep all? Hot metal

26:34

frame windows because they're cheap and easy that I brought

26:37

us Roy, Roy early

26:39

tipped which think isn't contemporary possible.

26:42

not stands

26:44

desk and sorts of spike like phone

26:47

There we go up with I was a winding handles

26:50

it's wanna hear her I said was,

26:53

biggest needy, and, water is

26:56

all that some stuff said what your guy gibson

26:58

your son he gives a fuck up the are designed

27:01

to,. me young yeah but

27:04

yeah it's young is very compton

27:07

But I'm an interesting about that, as with any the GOP second

27:10

board, we have this of a flight with of with the other, the

27:12

other, the other of. Lines

27:15

on spare aircraft. That's

27:17

right, he has in store now. How

27:20

did they pick?

27:22

You've talked about Young, you done it toy story time,

27:24

how do I choose the cruise six one seven

27:27

and is it a are, you know, because we do

27:29

touch with touched on the problem with elite?

27:32

The Air Force's pull the army, which is it'm

27:34

m they're pretty unpopular in regular.

27:37

Outfits because good people, you skilled

27:39

people, your experience, people or your

27:41

like motivated, super motivated people. Little

27:44

bugger off and join an elite outfit.

27:48

What, where do they get these before, what's

27:50

the attitude to this courtroom being for?

27:52

Yet as interesting so so, Guy Gibson's

27:54

just finished a big anymore, she finishes his

27:57

stint as commanding officer of one as six

27:59

got to yep. And.

28:03

He's supposed to be given some leave, but he gets cold

28:05

and by rough Cochran, who is it won't have five creep

28:07

her grandson and. There

28:11

was a coffee. Cruz

28:13

mountains as blood. On huge on

28:15

especially on leave on this but be hard you fancy

28:18

one more trip and, Gibson

28:20

sets for of into thanks in flat.

28:23

i'm sitting in Suicide

28:26

The, in murderous flak and night

28:29

fighter doesn't answer Gulf some goes.

28:33

in and would you mean is that what can we tell you anything

28:35

about it but we got an idea with this advice

28:37

much mission we can really need to do it but

28:39

anymore and little bit so he

28:41

goes off recover days and comes

28:43

back I. Think is on the computer

28:46

the nineteenth of March, I think it

28:48

is nineteen forty three guys, but see coconuts

28:50

will get a case I'm so what is that

28:52

he can he? Says I can't learning about it, but it's,

28:54

but it's very dangerous, is super special lots,

28:57

a low levels loss, low level flying hum

28:59

it can be competitive, do anything day. But we really

29:02

need you to do this, Gibson doesn't really for the has

29:04

nice, I says again a case,

29:07

and so am I guess is as you know you're. Going to have to form

29:09

a squadron you're going to train them up and them were gonna

29:11

have to do, Miss My can't even tell you when the missions going to

29:13

be. But all this will come. The

29:15

apparent as time goes on, so,

29:17

you know. The okay, well.

29:21

The try and get the best people we possibly can

29:23

in a prep, preferably people have done at least one

29:25

tourists not to a, not just

29:27

proves. impossible yeah, now,

29:29

cause the first thing he does, he goes to. The

29:32

goes to am I want to six

29:34

squadron and gets his mates yes in

29:36

a so he gets too hot good for example

29:39

he's there and be flight the if he.

29:42

gets various others people he knows

29:44

i'm mostly and

29:48

David Shannon and a

29:50

Mickey Mouse needed by Mickey Mouse in his is

29:52

known as an expert low level flowering

29:55

they then when you need to do it yes he's

29:57

an Australian I'm. at axes

29:59

of it is Very deep.

30:01

You're you're gonna put forward

30:03

actually ah, another some

30:05

hoops just go betty any flights to I mean you

30:07

know this, or think towns at.

30:09

night i'm awfully

30:11

and rice or i think that rwanda

30:13

ten Missions

30:16

wrong so what happens is Army I mean

30:18

they're picked as a good shots know

30:20

because they need these cruise and this

30:22

is not enough people who want to do. it

30:24

animal how the in hottie find these people yeah

30:27

you know the middle of squatter already in squadron in

30:29

i have a i just wasn't modest want of that that's

30:31

like come on disco you know if you

30:33

don't need fifty missions you can have it to the

30:35

fifty missions that why would you want to do anymore and

30:39

There are she's gotten night in a nice is go up

30:41

so much seven squadron in blais

30:43

Monroy, his new Zealander. They

30:45

did you notice on nice as well just as well as and.

30:48

That's interesting, so special.

30:50

In two months of training, the low level

30:53

yet when I.

30:54

You can be different okay I'm up for a few cents

30:56

and his crew I yell at Boston or whatever a,

30:59

cyber joe McCarthy in a say. so

31:03

That's how they kind of get this crew, the cruise come

31:05

to get really, you know, sort by quick, I mean, Gibson

31:08

turns up here a scam zone twenty first of March

31:10

and neat of the soup looking people beginning of April.

31:13

Because I was going on with of thing was gonna say is

31:16

from.

31:17

What? We're talking basically a week away

31:19

from ten weeks is ten owing to

31:22

the upper from me, middlemarch, to the

31:24

middle of the middle, my, yeah, yeah

31:26

with said no. Says ten weeks since basically

31:28

gets the full agree with us with the other end

31:30

of February, six notes on its notes, oh yeah,

31:33

dumb enough to me seems like no time. At it is

31:35

no time at Oaks, he really isn't any

31:37

have to remember that these guys I used to find

31:39

that kind of eighteen thousand feet above in a bonus

31:41

or. Astray me, which is basically means that you're flying

31:44

by City Willy Nilly Death, whereas

31:46

study what they're gonna be also do is fly and one hundred

31:48

foot.

31:49

That she ends up being of the time for

31:51

the releases can be any sixty foot, which is basically

31:54

the same high as A. The three

31:56

land of U.S. Army so by

31:58

I took less than a cricket. Age, he

32:00

has sixty four.

32:02

Nothing well with night

32:05

great lamps on airplane night

32:08

and, and with a rotating on

32:12

cylinder the

32:14

Exploding. Round and as got like cause Jara

32:16

thanks wanted game on particular exercises busts

32:19

because it's heavy and it's spinning in the article or I guess

32:21

I'm so, you're asked him. To do an

32:23

awful lot and Gibson

32:25

particularly has a real problem because he doesn't

32:27

he's gone completely new crew because he left

32:30

one, I suggest you know everyone's going to four. Wins

32:32

my sweet cream in his own crude: "I want to come back,

32:34

he could have form this new crew these as know

32:37

so that has to jail that codified chilling

32:39

of. A crew in a way have that complete

32:41

me to trust is absolutely essential the

32:43

same time he still got to be going down south to the

32:45

Bonds wallace he's got a. Number of prices

32:47

is still at that point, first part, the strength

32:49

content any the other crew's what it is that doing,

32:52

so they just get on with pressing low level stuff.

32:56

, know, he's causing having to ferry back and forward again

32:58

he is not like also driving of London

33:00

this morning and any own three as we're here is

33:02

A. Much bigger process going down to recover

33:05

intend for us or Manston

33:07

aware of. us than it was

33:09

and so he misses out on a lot of training

33:13

Because he's just not here and also

33:15

he's got the job of running that running the The.

33:17

That. Quote unquote important is not it's

33:19

not just the sort of right, okay, let's get the cruise in that numbers

33:22

go you've got to cry and it ah

33:24

squadrons it out of. The something like public

33:26

is for shake people's on the ground

33:28

to every seven and a plane so you're pretty

33:30

well on your education and on the,

33:33

ice for you. Gotta over see all this,

33:35

you gotta sign all the five where you go, sign

33:37

own often say yes and no and or less was up siegel

33:39

people underneath the biggest agree. With another sound

33:42

brilliant like pretty way of organizing, things

33:45

that maybe what you need is squadron

33:47

commander isn't Like. Yeah,

33:50

but reinstated come on repeat of, but you know

33:52

what our blood would have made like or or, or like, super

33:55

uncertainty does who gives

33:58

him would say every morning and go and. Anything?

34:00

Really poor need something I've got two other

34:02

ever held like as get the of the I think it

34:04

was a bad either, but the still an awful lot

34:07

on. His shoulders as my point is over lot he's

34:09

got to think about in he recruits tp

34:11

pow he's kind of number one kind of

34:13

ground crew guy to. Help get

34:15

up get less it up but they have to find everything after

34:17

one fitting and stools yet as

34:19

and been I crew rooms and,

34:22

all the kids. In the meantime

34:24

that du pont the. bomb upkeep

34:26

money isn't really a complete with is

34:29

it until them Read into the week

34:31

it rained a. lot not at

34:33

all and also length of time is over diana was

34:35

gonna get too sick to the did we talk

34:37

about the bomber lot but the aircraft

34:39

have to be modified to death because yeah

34:41

is that of see the superficial

34:44

visit the bombay doesn't come up with tarts have

34:46

to come off

34:47

The need to be a lot lighter doesn't it up,

34:49

and all this stuff

34:51

Winner. Winner of Rome: How

34:53

does that process was use it when somebody Aria,

34:55

if I didn't, think for the average, yeah, no,

34:58

mean, is really interesting because the green?

35:00

Light is at the end of February, nineteen, forty three acts

35:02

of "Avatar Greenlight", there is no upkeep

35:04

and the reason, though.

35:06

Then. Aircraft capable of carrying it, yeah, nice

35:08

for the face to face would spend weeks and weeks off

35:10

or roughly the has to be between mid

35:12

June between mid May and. The beginning

35:15

of t because that's when the water level as at the right

35:17

level of when because. After

35:20

that, he gets too low yep so that

35:22

all important pressure won't work, yeah.

35:25

And before of us is to, it's also

35:27

is two fold so you eat our it's it's.

35:30

There is this window a then you've go issue of moons you

35:32

need go where those capital almost full moon

35:35

a. full moon almost full moon so

35:38

the window really is kind

35:40

of those to weeks from the middle of may to the kind of

35:42

end of may

35:43

And that reason give you very much time fortunately.

35:46

i'm fingers crossed the weather's gonna be right that not

35:48

that during our states to

35:51

You know, Lena, you talking earlier about the wind

35:54

that this that they get, luckily they get a full cost

35:56

of means that can go because it's been bad weather

35:58

for the rest the month.

36:00

The window to get are still together the whole thing complaining

36:02

been us yeah so. you got

36:04

you got the because This

36:07

and chief designer, designed in the bomb.

36:10

The only a profit can carry this is Lancaster,

36:12

which is my by Afros, is often zoos it has whatsoever,

36:14

yeah, so that although.

36:16

By. Role in it together that you're still competing

36:19

firms are going to come to collaborate on that's

36:21

potentially fraught, eat out people get to be

36:23

chief designer because they've got quite

36:25

big. "Egos and because our ambitious and

36:27

because a control freak school they were things, but you're asking

36:29

too big guys spawns", Wallace

36:32

Roy Chadwick of Africa to watch "Get

36:34

from cooperates Fortunately they do, they

36:36

got really, really well why topic is really

36:38

lovely Blake's husband's wallace's all fine and

36:40

they do it's, but they are you do it by

36:42

kind of. Slashing red tape: All the normal

36:45

procurement process is that you would need to get things

36:47

from A to be and to get what is in this

36:49

area materials you need in. Place

36:51

in the right time to develop by the bomb

36:53

and of Lancaster Special Access,

36:56

that oh happens, and that's because

36:58

it's come a sanctioned of the highest level given

37:00

you. Don't know what the bomb is at the start this process

37:02

had you know what to do to the Lancaster Minutes

37:04

is it out, it's all happening where

37:06

you know is. Going to rotate, he knows gonna suffer before

37:09

four tons, and you know it's gonna have to hang

37:11

in calipers underneath it so you can sort of get

37:13

on with it I'm. As interesting as about the sphere

37:15

is, it just keeps breaking up on it's not

37:17

until they get lower, no, not really the idea is

37:19

your to and twenty miles now you. One hundred twenty

37:21

fi and he dropped from that be discussed, smashing

37:24

says only while and then that the actual

37:26

depth charge, which is inside the casing, that once

37:28

it smashes a. Then rolls on and they go

37:30

on minute maybe this will work

37:33

so we got this rotating kind of sort of be I baked.

37:35

bean kids can effectively but

37:37

some giant of oil drums would

37:39

employ that a rotating

37:41

and this could work and so they do further trolls

37:44

of this without the casing the guy on that this

37:46

is the way forward It already

37:48

because either but actually that also makes it easy for the

37:50

Calipers that because his guess is that the shallow

37:52

which means it's can sit in the cradle

37:55

to. calipers much more easily when the in the

37:57

type for six or blackstone which is what it what

37:59

it Com's blemish then or delivered

38:02

until I. remember where

38:04

so i begin a male something guess as

38:06

dinner

38:08

No one has I think Eddie so to people

38:10

of the three people or something of as he drops

38:12

alive.

38:13

Then. Upkeep of the whole, the right,

38:16

yeah, unless Test Pilots isn't it,

38:18

yeah, so I mean the that's quite interesting

38:20

in itself, isn't it that says my summers",

38:22

he ended? But it was my summers puts a guy is

38:24

always interesting, I don't give it to Gibson to try

38:27

at least once before for right, yeah,

38:29

that he doesn't get the he. Doesn't get that opportunity

38:31

to see don't think so, no, think will couple

38:33

of them do call him which one is my

38:35

beyond the mods is on to I'd. Probably say

38:37

that I'm a time ago but but, yeah but I mean, as

38:40

Monrovia B. M. P. didn't I'm

38:42

going over talking to bothers you decide, you know? Read

38:44

that, but we practice bombing, reprints, bombing

38:46

and reprinted bombing from is accurate bombing,

38:48

we practice low level fly straight sword

38:50

by Jody Johnson he was in Joe mccarthy's crates.

38:53

And he was the yeah, the bomber in that,

38:55

and in autumn of him I'm sitting

38:58

in this very room with Johnny telling

39:00

me the story and he had when I. Came

39:02

back here with Johnny and whenever was twenty twelve,

39:04

something like that he hadn't been in this

39:06

room sensible.

39:08

My on a timer, which I McAuliffe and he was due

39:10

to get married and is leave, was cancelled

39:12

because of six or seven scorching it's over cough came

39:14

within Tawdry aside and that was gibson

39:16

City where you're sitting and, he said.

39:20

My boy minutes have some lived go on to go

39:22

get married and if he doesn't get I leave, he's not

39:24

where we are outta here. The

39:26

choice is yours.

39:28

And Gibson goes okay go and have at forty eight hours

39:30

get married come back again so he does Johnny,

39:33

go married. right the beginning of the whole process

39:35

amazing but johnny was telling story

39:38

he said you know the joe liked

39:40

to because he was quite hard to

39:42

tell under hundred foot

39:44

The optimism really work for effects messy

39:46

have so guess is that he would come to err on the side

39:48

of caution probably be more like

39:50

eighty. foot or they were doing or be sort

39:53

of bombing runs over the over the wash them

39:55

and in finland The defined

39:57

by a one points so near Lancaster came.

40:00

underneath them. Nice

40:02

to be obese do unless it's

40:04

Johnny Will, who was that is it while it was it

40:06

was less monroe about, we're pretty sure I was, but

40:08

he was denied it.

40:11

After. That I then went to a myth that I went

40:13

to New Zealand, said that to flew

40:15

out to visit and just had talked of Blair's

40:17

morass, but two days are mesmerized. At,

40:20

he was at the time he must be my ninety or something

40:22

but he was very, he was very

40:24

together very compass Mantis had

40:26

a fantastic covered, I am I. mean just

40:29

told him for hours and hours last, went out to

40:31

dinner or this kind of stuff he was just amazing

40:33

and sent him a", Johnny says said. said In a this

40:35

incidents and he said it is een I said

40:38

suppose it is as ah

40:40

yeah go on am a our house.

40:44

and as vernon incredulously mississippi

40:47

as less was just very tough

40:49

guy was of yeah from sheep farming family

40:52

and i when he left his eight and he left the same

40:54

for first on never been on shit before yeah

40:56

whenever canada in i've learned to fly

40:59

join ninety seven squadron and

41:01

nothing really phased him he was very

41:03

kind of sort of

41:04

Phlegmatic Yeah and so

41:06

you he was as bad things up the cakes

41:09

really and in a different often quite interesting

41:11

and quite citing doing that two months

41:14

off from normal up from and.

41:16

i mean the idea of saying the dams right as of

41:18

said tuesday have a couple of months of normal

41:20

whereas coins or seems quite interesting

41:22

at as absentees yeah as attitudes

41:24

guy i mean he felt quite confident forehand

41:26

he felt that they were trying to any what they're about

41:28

isolate yeah but come on the effort compared to get

41:30

it's yam it's you have absolutely zero

41:33

training your yearly

41:35

Compared to what you would expect for someone

41:38

mountain this kind of operation the Times eight,

41:40

is disrupted as different times different

41:42

I didn't do it don't mean there's no dummy run is that

41:45

not a up he did that. so

41:48

that the

41:49

Though it is absolutely have one,

41:52

it diminishes the one hit well well, yeah,

41:54

and all and all last minute and

41:56

be one of the one of the things in that the room next

41:58

door they've got the bombing.

42:00

This prospects nose cone

42:02

thing and with it.

42:04

Then. The site, the site

42:06

as site, which is to

42:08

niles vs like, "We're up

42:11

to two bits of would enter and agree

42:13

on a handle and in the lipase in the. Idea

42:15

is that when the towers on

42:17

the to on the murder down on the murder down

42:19

as for the murder done, that thinks line up.

42:22

With that site that's when you that's

42:24

when you father mind that's when you drop it that's where

42:26

near the right distance and when did that come up with the

42:29

going? to they just about having they just they voted they would

42:31

someone what are some of it was he came up with

42:33

it but it was seriously she done by accents it was

42:35

the same thing with it is a way wasn't with

42:38

the you know how you know when your exactly the right

42:40

height or had you know when you're sixty feet at night

42:43

running over water

42:44

And. The idea of converting these two spotlight

42:47

the of as a if like virgin

42:49

anything in there you can you to set it's other that

42:51

voters react and. Right by so they do

42:53

this with the with the spotless about is it is not

42:56

Gibson gang of with eve to kind of look at

42:58

the yes ma'am in six. As follows

43:00

that night or it is to it is worked on much more

43:02

kind of methodically that but it is still works.

43:05

out kind of i am interested I'm

43:07

a little things incredible. So

43:09

the scene is said. If

43:11

I figured out what the dams right is eventually

43:14

am who ran the houses of it that none,

43:17

of us a surprise that but, what

43:19

equipment that the genesis of the

43:22

upkeep mind the aiming equipment

43:24

who's cruise on how it's just

43:27

Jolly holiday for? some am