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and welcome back to Should I Delete That?

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I'm Em Clarkson. And I'm Georgie Swallow. We've

1:01

got Georgie Swallow back. Indeed. Just

1:03

in time for Love Week. Which I love. Who

1:05

doesn't love Love Week? Who doesn't? I used to

1:07

hate that. Could I just tell you the worst

1:09

thing I did? Oh my God, could I just tell you the worst thing I

1:12

ever did? We were... Oh,

1:14

no. What did you do? I

1:16

remember my mum once when I

1:18

was... It was at school and

1:21

my mum surprised me with a

1:24

Valentine's chocolate. And she's done it every year.

1:26

Well, she doesn't do chocolates anymore. If

1:28

you're listening, mum, we miss the chocolates.

1:32

But she, every year, she would... She

1:36

still does a Valentine's Day card for us. Like, dear

1:38

Em, happy Valentine's Day, love. And then do a question

1:40

mark. Like, ooh, who's your Valentine? Yeah. And she did

1:42

it for me at school once for chocolates. No.

1:45

And I was so angry

1:48

with her because I was so embarrassed.

1:50

Because I knew it was my mum.

1:53

And obviously everyone else knew it was my

1:55

mum as well. Do you know

1:57

where I thought that story was going, though? I thought you were going

1:59

to... I opened at school and then went around

2:02

asking people who I knew. No,

2:04

I knew and, instinctively, I was so

2:06

angry because I was so embarrassed and I knew you

2:09

were so mean to one. Like, teenage girls are so

2:11

mean to their mum. Aren't they? I was so mean

2:13

to them and I was like, how could you?

2:16

You ruined it! I know, I know. I

2:18

know. And with hindsight,

2:20

it's my deepest shame. Can

2:23

you please do that to your daughter as well,

2:25

please? I'm thinking like at the age of 13

2:28

at peak embarrassment age. I must have been 11.

2:31

Oh, devastating. It does make your toes colour,

2:33

something. I know, and she was being so

2:35

sweet. Did any of the other parents get

2:37

their kids? No, no, she was just the

2:39

best you. Mum. She

2:41

was just better than all the other parents and that's how

2:43

I thanked her. I also have never forgiven myself. It's one

2:46

of those things that I feel is like, I've done a

2:48

few things in my life, mostly as a

2:50

child, but you just, you're like, oh,

2:52

why did I do this? Yeah, so

2:54

that's the worst. Anyway, Happy Valentine's Day.

2:57

Happy V Day. Happy Valentine's Day Eve

2:59

Eve Eve Eve Eve Eve, but the

3:01

whole episode. Happy Eve Eve Eve. Exactly.

3:03

The whole episode is love themed. So

3:05

that's why you're here. And

3:07

just an update from from Alex

3:09

girl Alex. She's she's living. She's

3:11

great. Thriving. But she just

3:13

needs to be in her bubble right now. Thriving is a mumma

3:16

bear. Yeah, exactly. So we're just gonna leave

3:18

her to it. And we got Georgie back to

3:20

tell me something good, please, bad or awkward. My

3:23

good is I'm going on a

3:25

solo adventure this week. I'm so proud of you

3:27

for that. I'm going to take the girls away

3:29

to Sri Lanka on me pod. I'm

3:32

terrified, but I'm so excited. I

3:34

just think like, bucket

3:36

list time. This is a real bucket list

3:38

event. And it

3:41

took a lot of cojones for me to

3:43

say yes to. And I'm so excited

3:45

about it. I'm so proud of you. I

3:48

know what happened. You're going to come back with like 50 new friends. And

3:50

I'm going to be like, yeah, yeah, really happy. Didn't have a great time.

3:52

Sorry, who's that? Jenny who? I'm going to get

3:55

the shit. You're going to get the shit. I'm going to get the

3:57

shit. to

4:00

get the shit. It's nothing more certain than you're

4:02

gonna get the shit. It's fine. I have actually

4:04

bought anti-diarrheal tablets. So they're going in the backpack.

4:06

We went to Sri Lanka with my dad a

4:08

few years ago and I said thank you present

4:10

for the trip. I framed him a packet of

4:12

deolalite as a reminder of the trip. I was

4:14

really worried what you were gonna say your gift

4:16

was. I framed him a shit.

4:20

A really funny one. That's where my brain

4:23

went. Okay, what could possibly be

4:25

bad at this time of great excitement for you?

4:27

Oh, it was bad. It was

4:29

real bad. Okay. So the other night

4:31

as I am packing for said adventure,

4:33

which in itself is a bad

4:36

time for me because I'm not a great packer. I'm

4:38

not the most organized. You're a terrible packer. You're the worst

4:40

packer I know. I'm like a panic packer. I

4:42

mean, I actually can't speak to

4:44

you actual planet. You're packing, but I

4:46

can speak to the whole atmosphere of the

4:49

packer. Yeah, panic. It's horrible. Well, that experience

4:51

was made 10 times worse because it was

4:53

that midnight and I've put loads

4:55

of stuff on my bed to try and organize it

4:57

and I thought, right, look at me being an organized

4:59

human over here. And I obviously then

5:01

realized I had to get into bed. So instead

5:04

of folding things, putting them where you need, just

5:06

kind of shake it off the bed and

5:08

that's future George's problem. And as

5:10

I did that, the mother of

5:12

all spiders was sitting in the middle

5:14

of my bed, like making himself far

5:17

too comfy. And as if that was

5:19

bad enough, I then panicked a bit

5:21

because he was so tonky. You got

5:23

to put them in the glass, get

5:25

them under and I used my passport because

5:27

I thought, well, that's, you know, sticking it. So

5:29

sturdy. And I opened my door. It's

5:32

windy. It's dark. It's midnight. And I

5:34

walked up and down my balcony about

5:36

five times because I

5:38

was too scared to let this chunk of

5:41

the spider out. And I'm muttering to myself.

5:43

I'm in panic. It was a fluster of an

5:45

evening and I see my neighbor's light turn

5:47

on because they can obviously hear a crazy lady outside instead

5:49

of going, oh, I better be quiet and just deal with this

5:51

as an adult. I called their

5:53

name at midnight while

5:56

we're both in our pyjamas. Help

5:58

me. And my amazing. I was using NABR

6:00

very kindly at to come out and

6:02

dispose of said spider, but that whole

6:04

instance in it stays with my bag because I'm

6:07

just slightly mortified at the fact that 31 year old

6:09

couldn't get rid of the terrifying thing on my bed.

6:12

Is that in your bed though? Is that

6:14

in my bed? That is such an invasion

6:16

of everything. I mean, it's him. I

6:19

had to burn my house down really afterwards. At least

6:21

the bed. That's why you were here. Yeah. I've

6:24

got nowhere else to go. It is late. We

6:26

were waiting. I got nowhere else to go. Um,

6:29

yeah, that's really bad. Well, it's

6:31

wife is upstairs in Arlo's bedroom. Oh

6:34

my God. That was a chunky one

6:36

as well. That's bad enough. I

6:38

don't know what's going on. It's not spider season. I

6:40

don't know what they're all doing. Get out. Is it

6:43

it? What zodiac season is it right now? Has it

6:45

got anything to do with spiders? No. It's

6:48

spider seasons like September. Oh.

6:50

I did hear that Conquers are meant

6:52

to help deter spiders. Yes. In September.

6:55

When Conquers are out. There's no... It's February. Where are

6:57

you going to find a Conquer? It's just blossom season,

6:59

baby. I don't know. Who's got Conquers they can send

7:01

me and them? Yeah, any Conquers collectors. Please.

7:03

We'll pay. Help a girl out. What

7:05

have you got for me? Good. Oh,

7:08

just good vibes. Just good vibes. Love that.

7:11

Um, I mean, Arlo's birthday

7:13

party since we last broke on the part, which

7:15

was so lush. Thank you for coming. You're welcome.

7:17

That was just really lovely to have a like

7:19

so full of love and I'm doing really well

7:23

in my running and everything does feel quite good, but it does

7:25

also link with my bag because as well as being really good,

7:27

everything's just quite hard at the moment also. And

7:30

it's like, I just feel like, well, I mean, is

7:32

it, you're looking at me like this is a surprise.

7:34

Like I have, I'm just like, I'm doing it in

7:36

a pod, you know, I'm like, oh, that's

7:39

new. This

7:42

sounds sad. Um, if

7:44

you just can't get the fucking balance right

7:46

at the moment, I'm either like

7:49

absolutely fine or I'm not, but that doesn't sound that sounds

7:51

weird. But I am fine even when I'm not fine. But

7:53

it's just like, like today we were supposed to

7:56

go to the DNA and how long ago did we buy

7:58

these tickets? My love. I knew,

8:00

we are not buying products for the adult people.

8:02

We were so excited to go to the Chanel

8:04

show because my mum went and said it was

8:06

absolutely amazing. And so that show, we literally got

8:09

the last tickets available. They were today. I

8:11

was so excited. Like I've literally been really looking forward

8:13

to it. And then, Arly had her

8:15

job on Monday, which were fucking brutal, one year

8:17

jobs. Didn't really think about them until

8:20

they were upon us. You've just had them recently.

8:22

I did, about the same mental age as Arly.

8:24

One year ago. Anyway,

8:27

they just really hit her hard, and

8:30

she's been 50 million times worse than it was. She's got

8:32

a cold, she's got a fever. Like everything's just been like,

8:34

oh, my little teethy's are coming through. She's

8:36

walking, so that's a big step.

8:39

Like it's just all fucking go.

8:41

And she's just like, and actually. She didn't

8:44

want to go to the show. But in

8:46

a year, in our entire mother-daughter

8:48

relationship, we haven't had that. She's been,

8:50

you know, we did Japan, like we do everything.

8:52

She comes, she's a really adaptable.

8:55

She's a go-getter as a baby. She's

8:58

like, yeah, she's a go-getter. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

9:00

I'm coming. She's such an Aquarius. But she's,

9:02

yeah, she's so normally,

9:05

whatever. And today, she was just having

9:07

absolutely no day. And it was a bad day. And it was just

9:09

a... Yeah, and then she was crying, and then I was crying, so

9:11

then I had to ring you and be like, I can't do it.

9:13

Then I cry. But no,

9:15

what you did do, this is my good, actually, what

9:17

you did do is that you followed me home

9:20

from the show in your own car,

9:22

swapping at M&S, to buy

9:24

biscuits and flowers. Snacks. And crumpets. And

9:27

chocolate and pretzels. So

9:31

it makes everything better. I know,

9:34

it's the key to my heart. You

9:36

came here, and we didn't go to the show, which

9:38

is sad, but you did come here and we went

9:40

to Soft Play, and then you cleaned out the fridge

9:42

and the freezer, and then you birthed my baby. And

9:44

then you listened to me cry. I mean,

9:47

I realised my really nice evening was

9:49

on the back of your really bad time, but

9:51

I've had a great time. Well, I love you,

9:53

so you're my good, literally. I love you. You

9:55

are your loner, the good. No,

9:58

that's not true, because there's other good. But You, Today. If

10:01

it again on a loss at home

10:03

and sit in the universe bright this

10:06

this this is hop to Sabbath any

10:08

sensible. Saw her husband Alec dogs. Will

10:11

do that. I'm sorry Tinpot my dad be that

10:13

she tried to help. Me: Earlier though the

10:15

that is measure that of if it

10:17

was so big suffered said or i

10:20

could open for your it's. Like they

10:22

say, my whole place happened this

10:24

morning so. I'm a bucket

10:26

And right now other a lot of things that I want

10:28

to say yes to in a bucket. This era began a

10:31

mother and his own when I like license every time I

10:33

see someone on their bike and like go to the that.

10:35

Like. Muslim Queen, Burger King like he's thriving

10:37

on is that like and places like

10:39

it would you call a little boy

10:41

slits of but it's still active You

10:43

say? I'm a failed her Home for

10:45

down Just hi Not. Like and ninety five

10:48

guess I'm aware of when you look out my

10:50

window all the motorbikes of the people the lists

10:52

are rotten my window I always see these are

10:54

numbered of leaving on. And

10:57

off so they aren't moving to see what's

11:00

in one and leave another. He bad ass

11:02

since I thought filming them because I'm like

11:04

this is really cool. I'm in my has

11:06

as acceptable sea. Malibu. It's

11:10

wish I had. My

11:13

head. It was thaw. It

11:16

out your head is young kid my

11:18

as it was okay you're on. To

11:22

Suggest flooded by and the like pushes

11:24

himself back and looked like a little.

11:29

Pull my like colors I'm I'm on com

11:31

o to buy dirt nap and. There

11:33

was no time like he didn't like.

11:35

Glance around he lifted his head. I

11:37

am on second. Floor straight up

11:40

and directly at me

11:42

with my camera filming

11:44

him. Which means. He

11:46

knew I was doing it because

11:49

he immediately looks. Com

11:52

boom boom and said his knees.

11:55

Neighboring I. Think

11:58

a penis and fifteen. The

12:00

amount of the move. Yeah.

12:02

The and you gotta go I have to

12:04

us on going to Sri Lanka I had

12:07

them about it's fucking weird to see weirdly

12:09

than fit the decision. That apple

12:11

pie is can be a while. She's me and I

12:13

wanted a new that would open a window and gone.

12:15

You bikes really cool. I'm sending it to

12:18

the same technique or messy and don't know

12:20

I panic he'll blow phone up to the

12:22

ground and now I can't live there anymore.

12:24

And I needed the ground sort of me.

12:27

Up and I realize now

12:29

I barely do know why

12:31

your head librarian? don't know?

12:34

I can, only little even

12:36

in the covers.and everywhere. And

12:38

to not last thing is not one

12:41

of these other simple as that goes

12:43

the distances on a bike that are

12:45

going to be that person still all

12:47

complementary. But. I was talking them essentially

12:49

and now I want to burn the when the

12:51

protection even though I. Assume ago though it

12:53

is to say but I would I

12:56

don't see you can I might I

12:58

apply see Sleep Barrel less avoid people

13:00

are you fucking crazy fast as he

13:02

told the plan though because. What i'm going to

13:04

do is one of the com a by debate which is of can

13:06

happen and i put my bike with all these people. Are

13:09

going. I've been into the personally don't think

13:11

I'm being know who I am in case

13:13

they do other nice suits and to go

13:15

ahead of snow have enhanced and and into

13:17

days. A week and sending

13:19

you from upstairs. And. Then I

13:21

meet and they will be. I believe it will

13:23

all that bad as you might normally. Long game

13:26

on. I'll buy my hair and dentists us. To

13:30

go out to conceal it. Threading of what?

13:32

Ah yes please have a bit awkward for

13:34

me. help me out with me away will

13:36

cut. Us adults less someplace it

13:39

and yeah screw my his was it

13:41

is. it felt like I don't even

13:43

think is allowed and I did. Looked

13:45

everywhere. For side and didn't explicitly say

13:47

safe were so that isn't spokesman

13:49

use of place. Where are you

13:51

A public is my nose out

13:53

of America? It's no less than

13:55

I deserve like I deserved before.

13:58

today is gonna get like I

14:01

know, and I deserve it because I

14:03

should have worn socks and the second I got there I

14:05

saw my mistake, but I want to miss this and it

14:07

was busy. It was busy. I didn't

14:09

see nits of it. No adult. Kids I could

14:11

handle. Also my toes are super hairy but that's

14:13

besides the point and evidence of good circulation so

14:15

we're not going to worry about that. I'm always

14:18

going to enjoy hairy toes though. Do you want to

14:20

enjoy mine? But,

14:23

guess how? Yeah and

14:25

I was so aware of it and this other woman was

14:27

quite nice and she was talking to us but you know

14:29

she was looking at your toes. Absolutely. She knows. And I

14:31

know, and I know, I could hear her

14:34

and I have friends talking in hashtags and I know that they

14:36

said that she's not going to be able to wear socks. Can

14:38

you believe she hasn't got socks on? Which is fair. You're now

14:40

forever every time you go going to be like, oh that's the

14:42

woman didn't wear socks. I know and what I thought was going

14:44

to happen was that when the woman came down, the woman who

14:46

ran it, well I thought she was going to come down and say,

14:48

no, she's got socks on. And when she came there

14:50

I said I got palpitations, I got like, you've

14:52

got too many piercings and then just peaches about

14:54

to notice. Imagine how you feel if it was

14:56

like someone else's feet and you could see their

14:59

feet just like wandering around in there. No, no,

15:01

no, because I would make everything inside me cringe.

15:03

I'd be like, mm-mm. And that's what they were

15:05

all thinking about you. To feed my child, to

15:07

the stalker, to send me the stalker looking after

15:09

her. See that second wheelie who wouldn't take

15:11

the bike helmet off the whole time. Imagine

15:13

looking at me with the bike helmet, hi this is

15:15

my baby. No, that just sounds bad enough

15:17

isn't it? I'll do that next time so

15:20

that they won't recognise me by my feet.

15:22

Should we just take the bike helmet

15:25

off? We're good to help. We can

15:27

help you please. So a successful week

15:29

on your part. Exactly that. So

15:32

without further ado, without further ado, and

15:34

I'd say that we absolutely

15:37

love and to be honest with you, before we did

15:39

it I was like, I'm not sure, like I'm not

15:41

sure how much there is a stand to learn here

15:43

particularly because I've been in a relationship for ages. But

15:46

what I found fascinating about this

15:48

episode was learning about attachment styles and

15:50

about like who I am within the

15:52

relationship that I'm in. Like I thought this was just

15:55

going to be like for single Pringles, which I thought

15:57

me and Alex, girl Alex were not Qualified to do

15:59

as a team. The rear ended up

16:01

being so. Fascinating and I pulled

16:04

the disabled people about a since we

16:06

recorded it's I have you guys enjoy

16:08

as much as we day without further.

16:10

Ado him his legendary. Hi

16:13

Logan, thank you so much for

16:15

joining us the that doesn't to

16:18

this evening but that's irrelevant Time

16:20

the relevant. Thank you so much for joining us.

16:22

About one more time anyway has

16:25

it's just a constant thing about

16:27

Down with Estimate is I am

16:29

so excited to talk with you.

16:32

You off like the queen of

16:34

dating. Right like that's

16:36

your. That's what I'm I'm

16:39

missing the Queen Queen's coronation.

16:42

I love and ah yes and those

16:44

so much or it's what he about

16:46

of his see hints. That

16:48

is. I mean, actually, unless

16:51

I thank you, My sister's boyfriend came

16:53

to us via hints on a console

16:55

like it arises opposes the first half

16:57

of the assets as a C C

16:59

Thousand One is. So

17:02

obviously hands and everything and a So

17:04

was one of those of us really

17:06

love to know what's. This

17:09

all started. For you and what dating

17:11

look like see you on what the

17:13

main was the you just thought something

17:15

has to change and on gonna become

17:18

queen. Of this. Land. Is

17:20

Emily well thank you for nineteen me feels

17:22

very official I appreciate and I'm super happy

17:25

to be here with you. So yes, I

17:27

work as the Director relationship science at Hands

17:29

which is a dream job I guess. Talk

17:31

about eating research stating it's learn about Dating

17:34

help people were dating and so that's a

17:36

really really fun role in which him getting

17:38

to work with our marketing team and our

17:40

product team and our research team and so

17:43

I've worked there for almost four years and

17:45

I get to think about dating all the

17:47

time and then am outside of Hands. I

17:49

also. Work as a dating coach working with people

17:51

one on one and I write a newsletter and

17:53

I teach classes. So I'm kind of thinking about

17:55

dating all the time and I love it. That's

17:57

what I wanted and I started doing this stuff.

18:00

Around eight years ago really when dating apps just

18:02

kind of started popping off I was like this

18:04

is very new. this feels different. This is not

18:06

the same as a matchmaker. This is not the

18:09

same is meeting somebody a work like it just

18:11

felt very new and I was so interested in

18:13

curious about it that I was like how can

18:15

I start learning about it So I started researching

18:17

about it, talking to experts hosting events and it's

18:20

kind of transformed into a few different things which

18:22

was my book How To Not Die Alone which

18:24

came out a few years ago. this work at

18:26

Hedge the one on one work that I do

18:29

and really I'm just such a curious person. I.

18:31

Have a background in psychology and so when

18:33

I was thinking how can I contribute to

18:35

this space, how can I help people I

18:37

thought, well, what do I have that feels

18:39

different and unique. And so

18:42

what I have is this research background and

18:44

specifically in this field called behavioral science which

18:46

is the study of how we make decisions.

18:48

And so I thought a lot about how

18:51

does decision making apply to dating? And that's

18:53

really kind of where my specialty as witches.

18:55

lots of people wanna be in a relationship.

18:57

Why are they single? Why is it not

18:59

working out well? It's a combination of decisions.

19:02

Are they making good decisions that propelled them

19:04

into a relationship? Or are they making bad

19:06

decisions? Were there repeating the same negative patterns

19:08

over and over again as I like to

19:11

break down. Stating intuit: small parts and then

19:13

safe where people getting it wrong and how

19:15

can I help them make better decisions along

19:17

the way to that they wind up in

19:20

that dream relationship, surprise you, learning about online

19:22

dating and up, what were you doing? What

19:24

was your profession? Was it psychology? Yes. So

19:27

I worked at Google right out of college.

19:29

so I studied psychology undergrad and then I

19:31

worked to Google and I had a series

19:33

of different jobs or Google and they were

19:36

all interesting and I had this one job

19:38

on that I had for a while which

19:40

was running this decision. science team so

19:42

basically it was called the irrational

19:44

lab which is the idea that

19:46

people are often irrational and how

19:48

can we help them understand that

19:50

how can products and marketing and

19:52

different seems a google understand how

19:55

people are irrational so's already applied

19:57

psychology to the product world of

19:59

google but In my spare time, I

20:01

was like, I'm obsessed with dating. It's so

20:03

interesting. Everyone's having trouble. I'm having trouble. This

20:05

is so interesting. And so I started this

20:07

series called Talks at Google Modern Romance, so

20:10

a platform to basically bring people in to

20:12

talk about dating. And that was really a

20:14

pivotal moment because I was like, oh, there's

20:16

a there there. Like 1,000 people signed up

20:19

for the group in a day. Lots

20:22

of people would come to the events. Millions of

20:24

people would watch it on YouTube. I'm sure you

20:26

have had this feeling before with your podcast and

20:28

your Instagram and other things where you're like, what

20:31

I'm putting out there, people are

20:33

resonating with. I should do more of this because

20:35

this is what people need. And it's like that

20:37

really special moment when you hit on

20:39

a need. And that's how I felt when

20:41

I started that series. Can I ask about

20:43

your personal life at that time? You said

20:45

you were like struggling with dating.

20:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's always

20:50

a really interesting thing because I imagine that

20:52

the experts on dating either, they're like dating

20:54

all the time very successfully. Although what does that

20:56

even look like? Surely if you were dating very

20:58

successfully, then you wouldn't need to keep dating because

21:01

you just succeeded at it. So I

21:03

don't know. I don't know what I imagine a dating

21:05

expert's life to look like. But at that

21:07

time, what did your dating look like? It

21:09

is really interesting when you just think about the

21:12

world of experts. Like a friend

21:14

of mine is an expert on the

21:16

psychology of motherhood, but she's

21:18

not a mother. And like she is a

21:21

doctor. She has studied this for

21:23

years. She has every piece of expertise in

21:25

the book, but people still give her a

21:27

hard time because she's not a mother. And

21:29

so it is interesting what people expect from

21:31

their experts. And so anyway, just as a

21:33

meta point, I always find that interesting. For

21:35

me, so I have

21:37

always liked dating. I had boyfriends in high

21:40

school. I had fun boyfriends and flings in

21:42

college. I was always actively interested in romance

21:44

and dating and all of that stuff, which

21:46

now I know is a certain type of

21:48

dater. Whereas there's people who maybe were really

21:50

curious about dating but weren't doing it at

21:53

all or they weren't prioritizing it. I would

21:55

always say it was like a theme in

21:57

my life. Like Sunday brunch was always, you

21:59

know, what. happened last night, like who are you

22:01

interested in all that stuff. When the

22:03

dating app started coming out, really like the swiping

22:06

apps, that's when I noticed like this just feels

22:08

different. Like the first night that you have one

22:10

of them and you're going through all these people,

22:12

I could just tell it was like the psychology

22:14

of this is crazy. Like, who likes me? Do

22:17

you like me? Do you like me? Like all

22:19

of that stuff was really a fascinating

22:21

experience for me. In my

22:23

life, I had had post college,

22:25

a number of relationships, maybe like

22:28

a year or two.

22:31

Some that I met online, some

22:33

that I met at work, a combination of that. But

22:35

a pivotal moment for me was when I met

22:39

this guy who I was super interested

22:41

in. And I had like a huge

22:43

crush on and I thought he might be interested in me.

22:45

And now I would call him a fuck boy.

22:47

And I would say maybe we're in a

22:49

situation ship. But at the time, I was just like,

22:51

I don't understand. Like, I like this person.

22:53

Why doesn't he like me back? And

22:56

I have a lot of compassion for that person that

22:59

I was because it was just so painful. It was like,

23:01

I don't understand why isn't this

23:03

person interested in me? How can I convince

23:05

them to like me? And it really became

23:07

this thing of well, if you reject me,

23:09

then you must be better than me. So

23:11

how can I convince you of my value?

23:13

Whereas nowadays, I would want to say something

23:15

like, if someone's not interested in

23:18

you, like that's what you need to know and

23:20

move on and find somebody who is interested in

23:22

you. And so for me, it was really this

23:24

feeling of being

23:26

in a lot of pain around dating, having

23:28

a hard time, not really understanding like the

23:31

bigger message of you want somebody who you

23:33

choose and they choose you. So

23:35

then I ended up seeing a dating coach. And

23:37

that was super helpful. Because she helped me

23:40

understand, wait, this guy doesn't make me feel

23:42

good. He brings out an anxious side of

23:44

me. This isn't a healthy dynamic. But wait,

23:46

how do I want to feel? And

23:48

there's a guy at work who I'm friends with who makes me

23:51

feel that way. And through her encouragement,

23:53

I ended up kind of pursuing

23:55

that guy or being pursued by him, you know,

23:57

sort of mutual interest. And now We

24:00

are married and we've been together for

24:02

almost nine years. And so

24:04

I feel like I hopefully am a good

24:06

example to people of it's not like, oh,

24:08

dating was so easy for me and I

24:10

figured it out. It's like dating was hard

24:12

for me. Then I did work

24:14

to understand myself and then I figured it

24:16

out and have this great marriage and relationship

24:18

and I want other people to do that.

24:20

And so I think if someone's dating has

24:22

been too easy, they might not even be

24:25

that approachable for someone because it's like, oh,

24:27

you're so beautiful. Like everyone's fallen all over

24:29

you and you got married at 21. It's

24:31

like, well, that's certainly not my situation. And so I'd

24:33

rather be a person who was like, I was in

24:35

the trenches with you. These are

24:37

the steps I took to get out of it. And I want to help

24:39

you do that too. It's

24:42

actually when you describe it, it's actually quite

24:44

complicated, isn't it? It's like a multi-prong thing

24:47

because you have to work on the psychology

24:49

of other people and the people that you're

24:51

dating, but also yourself as well, right? Like

24:54

you're saying you were kind of like you

24:56

were looking in the wrong places. Absolutely. Yeah,

24:58

it's really, you can't control other people. You

25:00

can just try to change yourself and even

25:03

changing yourself is pretty hard. You used

25:05

the words anxious in

25:07

reference to your own dating style. Yeah.

25:09

And something I'd be really interested to

25:11

hear about is attachment styles. Like it's

25:14

something that again, like I don't feel

25:16

like we have the language for that.

25:20

Before the apps 10, 15 years ago, it wasn't like

25:22

Common Parlance where you'd understand what kind of attachment

25:25

style you had. Can I infer

25:27

from the fact that you were

25:29

describing yourself dating as anxiously

25:32

that you had an anxious attachment style?

25:34

Yeah, definitely. And if you did and

25:36

anybody's listening and they relate to that,

25:39

what can they do to un-anxious it

25:44

to make it for gear? Yes, sure. I'm

25:47

happy to give a quick background on

25:49

that. So yes, I would

25:51

say when I was dating, I had

25:53

an anxious attachment style and in dating

25:55

my now husband, he helped me have

25:57

a more secure attachment style. people

26:00

who aren't familiar with this. So there's a

26:03

framework called attachment theory. It's based

26:05

on really good science and relationship

26:07

research. And it goes back to

26:10

a number of factors. But it's

26:12

really like, how do you interact

26:14

in romantic relationships? And what's

26:16

your relationship with independence? And what's your

26:19

relationship with intimacy? And so there's people who are anxiously

26:21

attached daters, like I was, where they really want to

26:23

have a lot of overlap with their partners, they want

26:25

to talk to them all the time, they want to

26:27

be in touch, they want to know where each other

26:29

is. And when they meet someone, they

26:31

really want to lock it down and be in

26:34

that relationship. They have a lot of fear of

26:36

abandonment. And a lot of what

26:38

anxiously attached daters spend time doing, unfortunately,

26:40

is worrying about things like, Are you not interested in

26:42

me? Did you meet someone else? Why did you not

26:44

text me and they want to have this closeness. There's

26:47

avoidant attached daters who are sort of the

26:49

opposite. They don't want somebody to get too

26:51

close. They feel like when you get too

26:53

close, I'm going to lose my independence, you're

26:56

going to smother me. Love is feeling like

26:58

somebody is kind of all over you and

27:00

you don't have your own space. And so when somebody gets close

27:02

to them, they push them away. And then

27:04

there's securely attached daters who are

27:07

sort of in the middle in the best way

27:09

where they want intimacy and they want connection, but

27:11

they also want independence. And so they can be

27:13

close to you and tell you that they like

27:16

you and share their real feelings. But they also

27:18

can take space for themselves, they don't constantly need

27:20

to be in touch. And so securely

27:23

attached daters are really great because they

27:25

have that balance. And so an anxiously

27:28

attached data who dates somebody secure, that

27:30

could be really helpful for them. Because

27:32

for me, it was like, when I

27:34

would do my old patterns, my now

27:36

husband would say, Hey, you know,

27:38

seems like you're upset, we should talk about

27:40

this in person. And it was like breaking

27:42

these patterns that I had. And it helped

27:44

me become more secure. And then with avoidant

27:46

attached daters, if they are dating somebody who

27:48

is secure, that secure person helps the avoidant

27:50

attached daters get closer to intimacy and say

27:53

like, Look, we just had a sleepover and I'm going

27:55

to hang out at your house for an hour and have brunch with

27:57

you. And Then I'm going to go home and that's going to be

27:59

okay and kind of. Bynum understand like you can

28:01

be in this relationship and still be independent.

28:03

Unfortunately, a lot of anxious people and avoided

28:05

people date each other and so they reinforce

28:08

these bad habits. Worse, I'm chasing you and

28:10

you're pulling away and I think that's exciting

28:12

and you think of this is what it's

28:14

always like and so it's not until you

28:17

break that Potter and the people really have

28:19

a change and so of all the things

28:21

that they teach. of all the research that

28:23

I studied, I think this is one that

28:25

has the most aha moments for people. Because

28:28

when you hear that sir, you're like. Oh

28:30

I've always been doing that. I always try

28:32

to convince somebody to like me. I always

28:34

sees people I feel like if somebody doesn't

28:37

want me then they must be better than

28:39

me and soaks sort of understanding like this

28:41

is a type of person as bringing out

28:43

of style and you and you can make

28:45

a different choice. I think that so empowering

28:48

for people. I mean cause relate to the

28:50

answers this attachment style but his mates or

28:52

a T every single thing you said. that

28:54

is exactly how I feel my whole. Life

28:56

with early onset what helps you get out of

28:59

that sort Of Sailors I do like. I mean

29:01

a. Scammer

29:03

over me that you out of

29:05

it. I mean

29:07

I definitely. I think I just knew

29:09

the loves them abandonment as if it's

29:11

fifty. Ohms! But my husband is very

29:14

secure as he has a very would

29:16

you say like a very secure attachment

29:18

style very secure and I actually it's.

29:21

It's. Really, it's really like validating

29:23

to hear you say all I

29:25

am to know that that's not

29:27

just because I'm. Weird. About

29:30

like that or not because I don't know is

29:32

a reason for and it's like a common thing

29:34

is kind of. Is this validating? Heather and I

29:36

think. I. Think

29:38

going into days and if I'd have

29:40

known things like that going into dates

29:42

and and also been able to identify

29:45

the pot your partner's. attachments

29:47

on his level that would have made life

29:49

a lot easier i think that's exactly how

29:51

i feel like this is real like this

29:53

is based on research a lot of people

29:56

have said he does this isn't like somebody

29:58

like pet theory on ticked off going

30:00

to be the opposite next week. And I'm

30:02

like, how can more and more people know

30:04

about this? And so I love frameworks. I

30:07

love these things. I also my kind of

30:09

contribution to this world is something called the

30:11

three dating tendencies. And so people

30:13

can take this quiz on my website, but it basically

30:15

tells you what kind of gator you are, in

30:18

so far as unrealistic expectations. So

30:20

like, in my coaching, people come to me and

30:22

they're like, you know, it's always a different story,

30:24

but it's sort of the same story. It's like,

30:26

I really want to be in a relationship, it hasn't worked out,

30:28

here's what I've been doing for the last 10 years, can you

30:30

help me? And then oftentimes, there's

30:33

this common theme of unrealistic expectations. And sometimes

30:35

it's unrealistic expectations of themselves. So those people

30:37

are hesitators, and they're not dating at all.

30:39

And they think, I'm not beautiful enough, I'm

30:41

not thin enough, I'm not impressive enough, I

30:44

don't have this job title, I don't have

30:46

enough money, I need to work on myself,

30:48

and then I can date. And it really

30:50

has to do with self love, because they're

30:52

like, I'm not lovable yet, I have to

30:55

make these changes. And then sometimes people are

30:57

maximizers, and they have unrealistic expectations of their

30:59

partners. And I'm sure you know, people like this, where they're

31:01

like, well, he was great, but if

31:03

I could take his looks plus his body plus

31:06

his ambition, then I would have this perfect person,

31:08

oh, I just have to keep searching. And they

31:10

think there's this eventual perfect

31:12

person that they'll meet. And they get

31:14

so so caught up in that,

31:16

that they don't realize, well, nobody's perfect, everyone has a

31:18

set of problems, you get to choose which set of

31:20

problems. And then the last type

31:23

is the romanticizer, who has unrealistic expectations

31:25

of relationships. And they're the ones who

31:27

are always thinking about the soulmate love

31:29

at first sight, I don't want to use the

31:31

app, so I want something more romantic. And they get very caught

31:33

up in the story, as opposed to understanding

31:35

that relationships are messy, and you have to

31:37

build them with someone. And it's not really

31:40

about the romcom version of love. I

31:42

have friends in every single one of

31:44

those categories. Have you speaking? I was

31:46

like, I know all these people. Yes.

31:48

Oh my god, you're so, you're so

31:50

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33:01

Tell me about your friends who they follow

33:03

into each of these categories. It's just so

33:05

interesting hearing, like watching my friends date because

33:07

I've been with my husband since

33:09

I was 18. I

33:14

know for so long. So I never

33:16

dated really. Like I, it was him

33:19

and then that was and then now I'm out

33:21

and I have a kid and that's that. So

33:24

but watching my friends date and particularly at this

33:26

time of our lives where like I've got a

33:28

kid and some of them are

33:30

still, you know, like single and whatever. I'm watching

33:32

people date. I find it so

33:35

weird to me because I have nothing to

33:37

offer them. I can't help. I didn't know

33:39

like so it's really I don't know

33:41

but it's so interesting being able to

33:43

understand them better. Like hearing you describe

33:46

the different ways that

33:48

people operate in that way and particularly I

33:50

find I think well, there's two things I

33:52

want to talk about the first one being

33:54

the hesitator because I hate that the self-doubt

33:57

and I feel like that's the familiar here.

34:00

Women. And then the second one thing.

34:02

The. Maximize of this is all I can

34:05

hear. My head is the A and people

34:07

talking about it to me I guess on

34:09

how many loves Dora Pacific ended with like

34:11

some time as to. What he says,

34:13

a lot of sneezing. Say loudly old.

34:17

Heard his. Voice

34:19

says gee in in your at

34:21

his opinion which is the most

34:23

common and also which is and

34:25

easiest to on of on to

34:27

pull yourself out from. Under.

34:30

Yeah so I would say.

34:33

When. I was doing my research from my boss.

34:35

as before I worked at Hands I worked with a

34:37

lot of maximizes. I think that kind of makes sense.

34:39

That's the kind of person who would seek out coaching

34:42

right? Someone who's like, well I just want a plan

34:44

and I want to search and I want to find

34:46

it. It's Logan so cheesy and be part of that.

34:48

So I was. A lot of my clients were

34:50

max sizes especially in the Bay Area where I live.

34:53

like a lot of like engineers and tech the ball

34:55

and product manager is that are very much go getter.

34:57

So I had a lot of those clients and then

34:59

I had fewer. has had tears because I hesitate or

35:01

who's not cheating is less likely to. Sign up

35:04

for coaching but now that I you know

35:06

my books. Been out there for a while

35:08

and like I think over one hundred thousand

35:10

people have taken my quest. It's actually more

35:12

balance in a lot of people are hesitate

35:14

years I would say maybe the rarest is

35:17

romanticize or. I'm that's the one that

35:19

I don't see as much. So I would say

35:21

I see a lot of Max Misers and a

35:23

lot of Hesitate Years. I. Have

35:26

a question and I could be

35:28

completely bossy at the wrong tree.

35:30

Help us. Do you think that

35:32

online dating has brad more maximizes

35:35

because of this? I guess. Maybe

35:37

like this sense. Is

35:40

feeding. of like a bundle and

35:42

also combine that with we kind

35:44

of like we're generation it is

35:46

a generation why why we can

35:48

get what we won't when we

35:50

want it and especially with the

35:52

internet to think that's kind of

35:54

liked online dating his has like

35:56

seals that people thinking well i'll

35:58

just keep for for someone better, for

36:00

someone better. Like I'll keep going until I get the

36:03

perfect person. Yeah, it's actually

36:05

detrimental. You know, I have a chapter in my

36:07

book. That's called Why Dating is

36:09

Harder Now Than Ever Before. And you can tell your

36:11

mom I said that. And I really think about how

36:15

a lot of society in general has created

36:17

that feeling. So, you know, we recently had

36:19

Black Friday and Cyber Monday and all of

36:21

these times when people are searching for deals

36:24

and like, this morning, I'm literally googling like

36:26

best winter gloves. And then I'm reading all

36:28

these review of gloves. And then I'm like,

36:30

Oh, well, do I care if I can

36:32

use my phone while wearing the gloves? And

36:35

it's kind of this sense of what researchers

36:37

call relation shopping, which is shopping for

36:39

a partner, as if they

36:41

were a product. So as if you were looking for gloves,

36:43

and you were saying how expensive are they? How warm are

36:45

they? Do they have the ability

36:47

to use your phone during them? And sort

36:50

of instead of calling it relationshiping, which is

36:52

the process of getting into a relationship. And

36:54

so I think society in general has really

36:56

helped not maybe helped is the wrong word.

36:58

Society in general has really led to this

37:01

feeling of like, I can always get something

37:03

better, I can always trade up what's the

37:05

new iPhone? What's the new drink at Starbucks?

37:07

And so I think we have a mentality

37:09

of there's always the right answer. And I

37:12

can just research my way to it. And

37:14

that's what I find with maximizers.

37:16

And so this will

37:18

happen to me with clients all the time,

37:20

where they come to me and they'll say,

37:22

I know exactly what I want. I have

37:25

a spreadsheet that analyzes every person I've ever

37:27

dated, I just need your help finding somebody

37:29

that has these qualities. And they're so confident

37:31

in that. And then I try to talk

37:33

to them and say like, Hey, you've actually

37:35

dated a bunch of people like that, it

37:37

hasn't worked out. Maybe that's not the right

37:40

combination for you. And so really helping them

37:42

understand that you think you

37:44

know what you want, but you might be

37:46

wrong. And it's possible that what you're looking

37:48

for is completely different from what will make

37:50

you happiest long term. Because what will make

37:52

you happiest long term, you haven't dated someone

37:54

like that yet. And so I'm really a

37:56

fan of people dating against their type or

37:58

exploring different types of people. people because

38:00

I think people just go get so caught up in like I know

38:02

what I want I just have to find it and it's like well

38:05

actually maybe you need to expand your horizons

38:08

a little bit and then see what kind

38:10

of person makes you happiest. With

38:12

the abundance of maximizers that this

38:15

culture breeds, I imagine and again

38:17

as we've just established I have

38:19

no authority to speculate on this

38:22

but I imagine that makes it actually

38:24

more of a hostile environment for the

38:26

hesitators like if you're already feeling quite

38:29

self conscious or insecure or

38:31

like you don't have the confidence to go out

38:33

and date. Does

38:36

the maximizers and the amount of

38:39

maximizers make it harder for the

38:41

hesitators to even try because I

38:43

imagine if I felt like I

38:46

was being perceived consistently

38:48

and never measuring up and I

38:50

kept meeting all of these types of

38:52

people it would not my confidence. Do

38:55

you find that maximizers make hesitators

38:58

more hesitative? Yeah that's a

39:00

good question. I think

39:02

part of that would be like do we think that

39:04

when you want to date you know what the other person is

39:06

like? I think maybe like a

39:09

maximizer isn't sharing oh here's how I'm measuring

39:11

you against somebody else. I think

39:13

for the hesitator the main thing that makes them a

39:15

hesitator is that they're

39:17

just not dating at all and so

39:20

once they're going on a date with a maximizer

39:22

like I would just be proud of the hesitator for

39:24

putting themselves out there and that's some of the most

39:27

exciting part of my work is when I take someone

39:29

from like zero to one like you're not dating at

39:31

all to now you're dating and that's really fulfilling for

39:33

me because I'm like look like you'll never be

39:36

perfect, you'll never have the perfect profile that

39:38

there's no such thing as that and instead

39:40

let's focus on how to make

39:42

you the best possible person that

39:45

you are and then keep going from there and it's

39:47

like have an eight out of ten profile like start

39:49

from there see what happens and I think they get

39:51

so caught up like well I couldn't possibly date now

39:54

because I don't have the perfect pictures it's like well

39:56

start with what you have and we can improve over

39:58

time and so it's kind of taking you out of

40:00

that black and white thinking of like, I'm either not

40:02

ready or I'm ready and say like, we're all works

40:04

in progress and let's have you start dating. You

40:07

talked about the most satisfying and

40:09

exciting part for you being getting people from

40:11

zero to one. If somebody is

40:13

listening and they are at zero, what

40:16

advice or steps would you recommend

40:18

they took to get themselves to

40:21

one? Yeah, great question.

40:24

So for hesitators, I

40:26

would give them a pep talk and I

40:28

would say, nobody's perfect. You don't have to

40:30

reach this perfect outcome of 100% ready and

40:32

then be ready to date that

40:35

doesn't exist for anyone. I want you to start

40:37

dating now. And here

40:41

are some steps that you could take. So first of all, if

40:43

you're not if you don't have a profile and hinge, I would

40:45

make one. And so I would

40:48

take the steps of just downloading hinge,

40:50

getting six photos. Here

40:52

are some good tips for photos. So your first

40:54

photo should be a clear headshot. This is what

40:56

your face looks like. No filters, no sunglasses, then

40:58

you want to have at least one photo of

41:00

you doing an activity that you love you with

41:02

friends and family. Just

41:04

show us that you have an active social life and kind of

41:06

paint a picture for us of your life. And

41:09

you want to have varieties, you don't have six pictures of

41:11

you and your best friend or six pictures of you and

41:13

your dog, like different pictures that show different parts of who

41:15

you are. And then you have the

41:17

ability to write these prompts. So that's a chance

41:20

to show us what's your personality like? What's important

41:22

to you? What would dating you be like? And

41:24

so I would fill those out in a way

41:26

that feels specific to you. So avoid some of

41:28

the cliches. And you can

41:30

Google you know, hinge app cliches or ask

41:33

your friends, but there's certain things that people

41:35

write like, I'm overly competitive about everything. And

41:37

that kind of turns people off because they're

41:39

like, Oh, you didn't put that much effort

41:41

in and so avoiding cliches being specific, and

41:43

showing both a humorous side and a vulnerable

41:45

side. And so just getting the app download

41:47

in and starting to date. And from there,

41:49

I would say, be compassionate with yourself. You're

41:51

not going to be the best conversationalist in

41:54

the beginning, you're going to make some mistakes,

41:56

you're going to be rejected at just kind

41:58

of owning that similar to to

42:00

applying for your dream job or

42:02

anything else in life, things that are worth

42:05

doing require taking

42:07

risks and possibly being rejected. And

42:09

so really understanding that

42:13

you are not born knowing how to date, you're not

42:15

born being a good dater and that instead of giving

42:17

up and saying, Oh, I suck at this, I don't

42:19

want to do it anymore saying, this is a skill.

42:21

If I learned guitar, I wouldn't be amazing at guitar

42:24

the first time I picked it up. And so really

42:26

just owning that it's a process. And that if you

42:28

really want to find someone and you want to get

42:30

to that end state of being in a relationship, you

42:32

are going to have to put yourself out there and

42:35

go through these ups and downs. And

42:37

so for the hesitator, it's really about being on

42:39

dates, understanding that there's no such thing as being

42:41

100% ready, having

42:43

a profile that's good enough, and you can

42:45

improve it over time. And really just being

42:47

easy on yourself and saying I'm learning and

42:49

this helps me get closer to my goal.

42:52

I love that. I love that advice.

42:54

And essentially, just be a bit kinder to yourself,

42:56

right? Which is what kind of what you're saying. Exactly.

42:59

Because I think yeah, that hesitators really are

43:01

so hard on themselves. I have a question

43:04

that is a little bit random. But going

43:06

if you don't mind me asking, going back

43:08

to talking about like, our types and what

43:11

we perceive as our types. I

43:13

heard that the

43:17

first person that we fall in love with, that

43:19

kind of wires our brain to look

43:22

for someone and something similar, to kind

43:24

of replace that or recreate that. Is

43:26

that true? Do we end

43:29

up searching for like the first person that we fall

43:31

in love with, or a different version

43:34

of them? I've heard versions of that. And then

43:36

I've also heard the opposite. It's like if you

43:38

date this person, then everybody else is in reaction

43:40

to it. I've heard the same thing about people

43:42

and their parents and all of that stuff. So

43:44

I would say like a lot of this stuff

43:46

around relationships, you can find one theory and then

43:48

you can find the exact opposite theory. And that's

43:50

one of the reasons why I like the attachment

43:52

theory stuff so much because I'm like, this really

43:54

just has been reproduced so many times over the

43:56

last 60 years. This is very reliable.

43:58

But what I would say kind of

44:00

the root of your question is we do develop

44:02

these patterns. So if we

44:05

get if we are anxiously attached, and we

44:07

date someone who's avoidant, we think that love

44:10

is chasing somebody like we're

44:12

not like, Oh, oh, I always tend to

44:14

date people who I chase. It's like, no,

44:16

love equals the chase. And if you're avoidant

44:18

attached, and you've dated people who are anxiously

44:20

attached, you think love equals somebody smothering me.

44:22

And so it's like your whole version of

44:24

this entire world of romantic relationship

44:27

is love is this thing. And then when you

44:29

break out of that pattern, you're like, Oh,

44:31

there was another way it didn't have to

44:33

be like this. And so I do think

44:35

that our early experiences really impact us, whether

44:37

it's our self esteem, whether it's

44:41

how open we are,

44:44

whether we trust people, like, I'm sure that

44:46

we all know people that are not putting

44:48

themselves out there because they've been cheated on,

44:50

or somebody has really betrayed them. And so

44:52

it's one of these things where it's like,

44:54

dating is like a garden, where each time

44:56

you have a relationship with somebody, you're planting

44:58

a seed, and then that seed is growing

45:00

and flowering in your garden. And then your

45:03

dating life is that whole garden altogether. It's

45:05

not like each time you move on to

45:07

a new plot of land. And so you

45:09

are a culmination of the different relationships you've

45:11

had. And that's why I love working with

45:13

younger people, because I'm like, if I can

45:15

help prevent that traumatic situation in college, or

45:17

I can help you choose better matches from

45:20

the beginning, I would love for you to

45:22

have this garden that's has less trauma in

45:24

it and more relationships that really helps you

45:26

become who you want to be going back

45:28

to the attachment style stuff. Do you believe

45:30

it would be interesting if you had a

45:34

minute to explain where, where the

45:36

research showed and where it stems

45:38

from in scientists opinions,

45:40

but also, if with

45:42

that in mind, you can change it

45:44

yourself. And if you can rewrite your

45:46

attachment style as an adult, sure, yeah,

45:48

I can get into all that. So

45:50

the best book on this is called

45:52

attached. And it's basically understanding how the

45:54

science of attachment theory can help adult

45:56

romantic relationships. So I would highly recommend

45:59

that book. also another book called

46:01

Hold Me Tight that's really good about all of

46:03

this. So I'm sort of borrowing from all of

46:05

that. So the origin of this research comes from

46:07

actually research with babies. So there was a guy

46:09

named John Bowlby, who did this research in the

46:11

60s. And so what he

46:14

would basically do is he would have the primary

46:16

caregiver, which at that time was always a mom,

46:18

come into a laboratory with the baby. So imagine

46:20

it's a lab that's set up kind of like

46:22

a little children's play area. And he

46:24

would have the mom come in and play with

46:27

the baby in the area, and then leave

46:29

the room and measure what happened to the

46:31

baby. And so they saw different things happen

46:33

to the baby. So some of the babies

46:36

would cry a bunch when the mom left. And

46:38

then when the mom would come back in, the mom would pick

46:40

up the baby and the baby would still cry. And those

46:43

are the anxiously attached babies. It's like I got upset

46:45

when you left. And even when you're back, I don't

46:47

feel better, because you might leave again, I

46:50

need to be near you because I don't trust

46:52

that you won't abandon me. Then

46:54

they had babies where the mom

46:56

would leave the room, the baby wouldn't

46:58

cry. When the mom came back in,

47:01

the baby would ignore the mom. But they knew from

47:03

other measures that the baby was really upset, they just

47:05

weren't showing it. And those are the avoidant attached babies

47:07

where it's like, I can't trust you. So I'm not

47:09

going to show that I care about you, because I'm

47:11

afraid that you won't be here for me. So I'm

47:13

not going to get close to you. And

47:16

then there's the securely attached babies where when the

47:18

mom would leave, the baby would cry, the mom

47:20

would come back in, the mom would pick up

47:22

the baby and the baby would stop crying. And

47:24

those are the securely attached ones, because it's like,

47:26

well, I did get upset when you left, but now you're back.

47:28

So I feel fine. And so this

47:30

research was really done for a long

47:32

time, not with romantic relationships. So with

47:34

understanding what is the role that the

47:36

primary caregiver gives to children. And so

47:38

it was like the way that the

47:40

mother interacts, the way that the primary

47:42

caregiver interacts is impacting kind of this

47:44

child's ability to take risks or feel

47:46

safe for all of those things. And

47:48

then over the years, that's been applied

47:50

to romantic relationships. I don't want

47:53

anyone to take away the message of like, my

47:55

mom messed me up. And if only my mom had

47:57

done this, I'd be in a relationship. It's honestly much more

47:59

complicated than that. But I think it's

48:01

the basis of it Isn't this? Child research

48:03

and an application of it over the years

48:06

has been to romantic relationships and I think

48:08

the fact that so many of us relate

48:10

to it and can say like I was

48:12

like that Here's how it changed, just kind

48:14

of reinforces I think how how meaningful it

48:17

is and then in terms of people changing

48:19

it. So one way is dating a secure

48:21

partner. Because. That can help

48:23

you break your pattern and around fifty percent of

48:25

daters are securely attached. see my think. Oh that's

48:27

pretty good. I can find someone but the caviar

48:30

is that many of them are already in relationships

48:32

and they don't get out of them. So the

48:34

pool is a lot of avoid it an anxious

48:36

people but you don't have to be worried because

48:38

there are things that you can do on your

48:40

own. So if you're anxiously attached a big thing

48:43

to do is self soothing and some sure. we've

48:45

all had this experience where you are taxing somebody

48:47

and they stop responding and you kind of spiral

48:49

and go into the danger zone and you think

48:51

about all the things. That are going wrong What

48:53

can you do and said can you distract

48:55

yourself can you take somebody else? Can you go

48:58

for walk any good movies where you can't use

49:00

your phone? Really saying like I know what it's

49:02

like when I go to the danger zone and

49:04

I send texts or calls at a don't

49:06

want t How can I prevent that from happening

49:09

as a really low know what your triggers

49:11

or and then taking control of your behavior and

49:13

saying yes what I want to do is

49:15

Texan a hundred times. I'm not going to do

49:17

that because it doesn't create a good outcome and

49:19

I'm scaring them offer bothering them, I'm gonna

49:21

do something else. And so it's kind of

49:24

owning your behaviors and keep yourself added a

49:26

danger zone for the avoid attached daters. It's

49:28

also about understanding that it's safe to bring

49:30

somebody in and get close to someone. So

49:32

if you have that sleep over on a

49:34

Saturday night and then on Sunday morning the

49:36

person hasn't left your house yet instead of

49:38

head exploding at them and saying hey, I'll

49:40

call you maneuver what? Even at least it's

49:42

maybe just stating your needs like it was.

49:45

so fun hanging out you like to see

49:47

you again soon. Actually have a bunch of

49:49

work I'm going to prep for my job

49:51

tomorrow so. Yeah. I'm going to head

49:53

out soon to go to coffee shop and work

49:55

or whatever it as. And so for the avoided

49:57

people, it's about understanding that they have enough to

49:59

ten. You to push people away and that

50:01

might even be the act. Like. Finding

50:04

all the laws of people as a reason

50:06

to not be with them and that instead

50:08

what they should focus on is how can

50:10

I get more comfortable being closer to people

50:12

may thing. Can. We just quit play

50:14

touched. Asked about the it. Is.

50:17

A Real Things is a real say nor

50:19

is it kind of the some that we

50:21

make up in our heads To. Ah,

50:24

Don't know it? is there any. I

50:26

think the communists science behind the eight Crazy.

50:28

I mean I think the it has gotten

50:30

trendy and the last few years because it's

50:32

really funny right? Like people on how funny

50:35

story supposed on tic toc people update or

50:37

tame it's it's kind of like oh my

50:39

gosh I never believe what this girl did

50:41

all my day right? Like there's you get

50:43

social capital for sharing these stories are understand

50:45

why has it off and then what I

50:47

think happens with modern dating is that people

50:49

just take each other for granted and so

50:51

it's like oh this guy was perfect except

50:54

for the fact that he did this one

50:56

thing. And it gave me the economic and I are

50:58

going to see him again. If you didn't have as

51:00

many options you might be like. Well, I didn't like

51:02

that thing about him, but I'll certainly still see him

51:04

again. and so I think it becomes an excuse for

51:06

pushing someone away. And I've been doing some writing on

51:09

this recently, which is that I think the people that

51:11

have happened if a lot really need to understand the

51:13

difference between a deal breaker and a pet peeve to

51:15

deal with. It would be a fundamental reason why you

51:17

can't be with someone like were of different religions and

51:19

we care about that. We want to raise their kids

51:21

that were like I have asthma. You're a smoker like

51:24

that's a real reason not to be with someone. And

51:26

now I'm. People

51:29

get confused with a pet pet peeve which is

51:31

like my preference would be that you to do

51:33

the saying they saw no reason I can't be

51:35

in a long term relationship with you and so

51:37

the work that I try to do with people

51:39

is helping to differentiate between pet peeves, a deal

51:41

breakers and understanding that a lot of the issues

51:43

that they have are more on of pet peeves

51:45

and that they could get over them. And so

51:47

from people that chocolate the A, call the time

51:49

or they have a friend who talks at the

51:52

Icc all the time. I would you say try

51:54

to explore what's underneath that and are you using

51:56

this as a reason to not get close to

51:58

someone? I guess. Something we haven't even told. about

52:00

and I guess kind of comes in from the ick

52:02

is sexual attractiveness

52:05

and sometimes

52:09

I hear the ick spoken about a lot like he

52:11

gave me the ick and I just couldn't fancy him

52:13

anymore because I don't

52:15

know he did something completely inane

52:18

like tripped over or I don't

52:20

know it's so unfair but

52:23

do you think with that

52:26

in mind you can like

52:28

rustle up sexual attraction or

52:32

no like how important is that

52:34

initial spark that initial chemistry the

52:36

initial sexual attraction or scientifically

52:40

in your experience is

52:42

it a slower burner should

52:44

it be a slower burner trying to

52:46

find attractiveness yeah so my

52:48

views on this are that if there's no attraction

52:51

at all it's really hard for that to grow

52:53

so if you meet someone and you're not initially

52:55

attracted at all it would be pretty hard for

52:57

that zero attraction to turn into something but

53:00

what people get confused on is people in the

53:02

middle so it's like if I meet you and

53:04

I'm a little bit attracted to you but not

53:06

as attracted to you as I was to someone

53:08

else that is a chance for it to grow

53:10

and so it's like it can't go from zero

53:12

to something but lots of people can go from

53:14

a little bit to something more and I think

53:17

an issue that I see in modern dating is that

53:19

so many people cut it off too early and they're

53:21

like well I wasn't initially over the moon attracted to

53:23

him I didn't feel this initial spark and so I

53:25

don't want to see him again and so a lot

53:27

of the work that I do with people is

53:30

help them notice the situations where there is some

53:32

interest and so I have this tool called the

53:35

post-date eight and it's eight questions that people can

53:37

ask themselves after a date that help them tune

53:39

into things like how did I feel around the

53:41

person what side of me did they bring out

53:43

did I feel curious about them and the goal

53:45

is that you might see oh actually like you

53:47

know maybe I wasn't the most attractive to them

53:50

but there was a lot of stuff about them

53:52

I'm interested in and I want to see them

53:54

again Or I felt terrible around them

53:56

and I don't want to see them again, but it's

53:58

helping you tune into how. The all because

54:00

I think a lot of people have a lot of.

54:03

Separation between what's going on with them and

54:05

the decisions that they're making. So like I'm

54:07

sure you know people whether dating someone who's

54:09

not nice to them but they're like he's

54:11

so good on paper it's like well who

54:14

cares about the paper if when you're with

54:16

them you feel bad about yourself and so

54:18

helping people tune in more to how they're

54:20

feeling. a year and and I guess us

54:22

at say that's so important for just like

54:24

the average person who is dating to really

54:27

have like a value way and assess rather

54:29

than makes. That. Not even

54:31

less decisions but like decisions but

54:33

not necessarily based on or or

54:36

I guess without exploring like why

54:38

they're making these decisions on I

54:40

feel like I feel like pinpointing

54:43

your attachment style. Must. Be

54:45

so important for this. Totally so when I'm

54:47

thinking about hands and people getting ready for

54:49

dating in the new year or one of

54:51

the best things that they could do is

54:53

really odd. It's our daily lives in say,

54:56

where am I now? where do I want

54:58

to go? What's been holding me back and

55:00

so they might talk to a friend or

55:02

a therapist or that they're journal and to

55:04

say things like okay, so I consistently seem

55:06

to to sleep like this. Then they end

55:08

up breaking up with me. Here's what is

55:11

happening, or I just people I guess. And

55:13

nine I broke up with them. Why is

55:15

that happening and just getting a little bit

55:17

clearer about what's going on and then saying

55:19

like says that feel good as that not

55:21

feel good when I want to do instead

55:24

And I think that. People. Some

55:26

has feel like of i just keep dating I'll

55:28

figure it out but I work with people in

55:30

their seventies who haven't figured it out and so

55:32

it's not just a matter of time. it's also

55:34

a matter of really being self reflective and saying

55:36

who am I. What? Do I?

55:39

Why? What's. Happening right now. How

55:41

can I make different choices? Like it's in

55:43

those moments of self reflection that you really

55:45

get a chance to make different changes and

55:47

self with my clients. Some of the most

55:50

satisfying moments or when they say. Not.

55:52

oh i have a boyfriend midst of course i'm happy

55:54

about but when they say i was dating this guy

55:56

he wasn't treated me that well i could tell that

55:58

there were red flags a didn't ignore them and

56:01

I broke up with him. I'm like, yes,

56:03

that's a huge win. Because running away from

56:05

red flags is a really important part on

56:07

the process, on the way to finding this

56:09

great relationship. Just going back quickly to the

56:12

chapter in your book about modern

56:14

dating being harder than ever, and we

56:16

can tell them on that. Why

56:20

do you think that is?

56:22

Like, do you think we've

56:24

kind of created quite

56:28

beyond, obviously, we you touched on it

56:30

before with this kind of like maximizer,

56:32

like abundance, there's always something

56:34

better Black Friday attitude to everything. Do

56:36

you think we and

56:39

I often wonder this just in general

56:41

with our humanity on social media, do

56:43

you think we'd slightly dehumanize each other?

56:45

I don't know, like, with hookup culture,

56:47

I don't know with social media, like,

56:50

is romance of the

56:52

date like days gone by? Like, is

56:54

that gone? Like, taking someone

56:56

out for dances? Like, I don't know, my

56:59

grandparents met at an actual dance. I know,

57:01

but then also they legally like couldn't get

57:03

divorced. So I don't know. You know, like,

57:05

I don't know. I guess you look at

57:07

every stage. You can

57:10

look at every stage like this. But what where

57:12

do you think the like modern landscape is for

57:14

dating compared to where it was? And why do

57:16

you think it's so much harder now? Yeah, so

57:18

I should say that there's things that I actually

57:20

think are easier now. So for example, if you're

57:22

part of the LGBTQ plus community, or you're over

57:24

55, if you're one of these

57:26

groups that in general has trouble finding somebody

57:28

who is single and would be interested in

57:31

you and like, you know, if you're gay,

57:33

and you go to a club, you don't

57:35

know who's also gay and who would be

57:37

interested in you. And like, so for certain

57:39

groups, it's much, much easier to find someone. And

57:41

I think the evidence

57:43

supports this. So since 2017, the

57:46

majority of couples that meet and are

57:48

in successful relationships met online. So obviously,

57:50

this is helping many people. I Think

57:53

that we are in this weird stage

57:55

of technology where people have personas, and

57:57

we sort of get wrapped up in

57:59

what's. The message and I'm sending a my

58:01

Instagram or what am I story show dubs

58:03

is my life seemed cool and off and

58:05

so I think that there is a lot

58:07

of projecting that people do around who they

58:09

are and I think that we get in

58:11

the wet. that gets in the way because

58:13

it's like a my meeting you are my

58:15

meeting your online persona. The good news is

58:18

that if you're using online dating once you

58:20

meet it's still the same as if you

58:22

had met through Matchmaker It so like once

58:24

you meet now the date is up to

58:26

you and so the app is the all

58:28

my Matchmaker getting you that connection. But once.

58:30

You're the two of you at a bar, the

58:32

two of you going for a walk. It's just

58:34

about the to humans in front of you. and

58:36

so I think the more that we can think

58:39

about the Op's is just await us, meet someone

58:41

and get off the date for says all as

58:43

like the messaging for months and all of that.

58:45

I think that really slows people down and selves

58:47

in general. I always suggest that people get off

58:50

the Op's as quickly as possible, get onto a

58:52

date and that's really where they're going to make

58:54

the most progress. Can I ask how much closer

58:56

makers since like a where we have that you

58:58

go? Same bug of seventy courses. Can I

59:01

ask how you for your clients,

59:03

how you help them reef frame

59:05

rejection Because online dating particularly comes

59:08

a lot of rejection which can

59:10

be painful which can be I

59:12

imagine a deterrent from continuing today.

59:15

Has. You help them refrain and push past

59:17

there and just keep keep going. Yeah, it's

59:20

a really good question. I think it's so

59:22

appropriate for this time of the year and

59:24

for gente in particular. So all the research

59:26

that I've been doing with Gnc a big

59:28

thing is like I want to be in

59:30

a romantic relationship and I want a partner,

59:33

but I'm afraid of rejection and so that

59:35

stuff is hard. but I just try to

59:37

get them like a pretty. Overall.

59:39

pep talk around what rejection is it's like

59:41

if you're not getting rejected that are you

59:43

not going after what you want and sometimes i

59:46

think it's easier to talk to people that careers

59:48

vs dating because it somehow feels like less

59:50

person all less trigger and things like that

59:52

and so i would say to them like

59:54

if you only ever took a job where

59:56

a linked in recruiter message you are you know

59:58

your friend said hey there's an opening at this

1:00:00

job, are you gonna get your dream job

1:00:02

that way? Probably not. You're gonna get your

1:00:04

dream job by figuring out what do I

1:00:06

love? What's my passion? How can I go

1:00:08

after what I want? How can I email this

1:00:11

person? How can I ask for a favor?

1:00:13

How can I take a risk? And really

1:00:15

understanding that when you want something, you need

1:00:17

to take risks to get it. And part

1:00:19

of taking risks is risking rejection. And if

1:00:21

you can just own that rejection and say, great,

1:00:23

I got rejected today. That's a sign that

1:00:25

I'm going after what I want. That's a

1:00:27

sign that I'm trying hard. And so it's

1:00:29

like, I do think rejection hurts. It's really

1:00:31

hard to be told I don't want you.

1:00:33

It's really hard to be told, you know,

1:00:35

I slept with you and I don't want

1:00:37

to see you again. Like, I'm not invalidating

1:00:39

that all that stuff is painful. I'm instead

1:00:41

saying if you think about dating as a

1:00:43

journey, and this as a necessary part of

1:00:46

that journey, you sort of take some of

1:00:48

the sting out of it. And so have

1:00:50

you ever heard that expression? It's like, if you've

1:00:53

never missed a flight, you're spending too much time at

1:00:55

the airport. I love that. But

1:00:57

I love it. You get it. It's

1:00:59

basically saying like, you don't

1:01:01

want to be spending hours at the airport, occasionally, you're

1:01:03

going to cut it too close, and you're going to

1:01:05

miss a flight. And that's the risk you're willing to

1:01:07

take to mostly not spend too much time at the

1:01:09

airport. Well, that's how I feel about this. It's like,

1:01:11

if you've never been rejected, and you're probably not aiming

1:01:13

high enough. And so for people,

1:01:15

I would just say, yes, rejection sucks, it really

1:01:17

hurts. But it's a muscle that

1:01:19

you can build up. It's a, you know,

1:01:22

skin on your it's like, skin

1:01:24

that you can build up over time so that

1:01:26

you get thicker skin, and it's not as hard

1:01:28

for you. And just kind of saying people that

1:01:30

are in these great relationships that you admire, they

1:01:32

put themselves out there and they risk things

1:01:34

along the way. And that's a

1:01:37

necessary part of getting what you want. And

1:01:39

so the sooner that people can experience rejection,

1:01:41

and understand that it hurts, but you'll move

1:01:43

on, the more that they will be ready

1:01:46

to be in these great relationships. That's such

1:01:48

a cool reframe. Yeah, I love that. I

1:01:51

still think going straight in my back pocket to

1:01:53

tell Alex next time we try and get to the airport

1:01:55

like five hours early. It's

1:01:58

so funny in couples. There's always one. There's

1:02:00

often one that wants more and want more time at

1:02:02

the airport and one that's like come on who wants

1:02:04

to sit down Let's just board the flight as soon

1:02:06

as we get there. Can I ask you a question?

1:02:08

I'm just really intrigued about on a personal level Sure,

1:02:12

do anxious people ever Do

1:02:15

they commonly attract anxious people because I could

1:02:17

not be in a relationship with another anxious

1:02:19

person. It would be an Absolute

1:02:22

mess estate. Yes, so two

1:02:24

of us two of me. Um That's

1:02:27

exactly what ends up happening So usually anxious anxious

1:02:30

doesn't happen because they annoy each other and it's

1:02:32

also like not the fun of the chase And

1:02:34

then avoid and avoidant doesn't happen that often because

1:02:36

neither of them is really willing to put in

1:02:38

the effort I feel a bit

1:02:40

sorry for the secured people because they they

1:02:43

get lumbered Yeah, shit did secure people find

1:02:45

secure people or do they just is it

1:02:47

just they're across the bear that they People

1:02:51

like me. I know I

1:02:53

know what you mean, but it's honestly like they're secure

1:02:56

And they can make somebody else be secure. So

1:02:58

it's not like oh, I have to deal with

1:03:00

all this drama It's like they're actually bringing out

1:03:02

the best in that other person And so you

1:03:05

shouldn't feel too bad for them sometimes secure and

1:03:07

secure wind up together But it's almost like secure

1:03:09

is like the universal donor if you know about

1:03:11

like blood types and everything where it's like they

1:03:13

can fit With a lot of people so it's

1:03:15

almost like oh well this

1:03:17

anxious person has a lot of baggage. That's hard

1:03:19

It's like well the secure person is bringing out

1:03:21

the best side of them So they're really seeing

1:03:23

the best in that person and so I understand

1:03:26

the root of your question But I would actually

1:03:28

just say in general secure people are able to

1:03:30

make those relationships work by helping somebody see like

1:03:32

hey That's not a healthy habit. Let's try something

1:03:34

else or like I like you. I want to

1:03:36

see you again I'm not gonna play a game

1:03:38

and so it's they're creating a lot of aha

1:03:40

moments for the other people But it's not at

1:03:42

a cost to them. I would say I as

1:03:44

soon as we finish this call I'm going like

1:03:47

running upstairs to my husband and explain to him

1:03:49

This is why I am the way that

1:03:51

I am and bless you for being

1:03:53

so secure and patient Oh, yes, I

1:03:55

totally feel that way that my husband too and yes,

1:03:57

so I would recommend those books that I mentioned attached

1:04:00

and hold me tight. And I think for anyone listening

1:04:02

who is excited about this, there's so much in

1:04:04

the field of attachment theory that's really, really helpful.

1:04:06

And if you've been stuck for a long time,

1:04:08

getting familiar with this could be the thing that

1:04:11

gets you from where you are now to the

1:04:13

next stage of the year. Amazing, thank you so

1:04:15

much. It's been so cool to talk to you,

1:04:17

so cool. Yeah, it was so

1:04:19

fun meeting both of you. Thanks for being

1:04:21

so passionate and excited about all of this

1:04:23

and I'm really glad that you're bringing this

1:04:25

information to all of your listeners.

1:04:27

Thank you so much. Me too, I think

1:04:30

there's gonna be a lot of light bulb moments

1:04:32

for a lot of people listening as well. I

1:04:34

do too, I'm hoping that we're gonna see like

1:04:37

a spike in hinge downloads and then

1:04:39

in about like a year's time, a

1:04:41

whole load of save the dates to,

1:04:43

should I delete that times hinge wedding

1:04:45

invitations? Yay, okay, I want that too.

1:04:48

Great, well thank you so much and so good

1:04:50

to meet you. Thanks for having me. Thank you

1:04:52

so much, ladies and gentlemen, thank you. Should

1:04:54

I delete that? It's part of the Acaf Crease Network. Thank

1:04:57

you. Hi,

1:05:02

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