0:05

A suspect, a Caucasian woman in

0:07

her mid-20s, claimed she was

0:09

covering for the other surgeon girl. Fetishness.

0:12

Thank you. Witnesses? One.

0:15

The receptionist

0:16

signed her in as a temp. Okay, great. Well, let's

0:18

get this Efitt image over to Brulyn and get her identified. Why

0:23

are you all being weird? She gave

0:25

her name at the desk. Okay.

0:28

She said her name was Eve Polastri.

0:32

It's the big show with all

0:34

the Bs and the Ss. It's

0:37

TV's BBS. And

0:39

I'm Sasha Bates. And this is Shrink

0:41

the Box. It's the antithesis

0:44

of BS. We select

0:46

characters we're all obsessed with

0:48

from telly and discover their truth,

0:50

you know the rules. We put them into therapy, find

0:53

out why they behave the way they do. And usually, we learn

0:55

a lot about ourselves along the way. on the

0:57

white dew Sasha, tell

0:59

us about a clip from the top.

1:01

That was the amazing Fiona Shaw

1:03

playing Carolyn Martens talking

1:06

to the secret MI6 team that she set

1:08

up, Kenny, Eleanor and Eve. The

1:11

mystery assassin they've been tracking has just

1:13

killed again and she did so using

1:15

Eve's own name. So they

1:18

know she's onto them just as they are onto her. It's

1:20

all very cat and mouse and back

1:23

to cat again. And it is of course killing

1:25

Eve. And I'm so excited

1:28

to have had something brand new to watch. I

1:31

don't know why I didn't watch it first time around,

1:33

but I just didn't. I mean, you miss

1:35

a lot of stuff, don't you? There's just too much telly.

1:38

So thank you to all the listeners who wanted Eve

1:40

on the couch. It was great to watch something

1:42

new. And I can tell you,

1:44

I've very, very much enjoyed

1:47

it. It was sort

1:48

of darker than I imagined

1:50

it might be. It was funnier than I thought it would

1:52

be. The cat and mouse thing

1:55

worked for me it sort of doubled as a will

1:57

they won't they thing because I thought wait a minute is this

2:00

Is this a gay love story or is it like

2:02

a thriller? Like I wasn't sure what was going

2:04

on. And that kept me on the edge of my seat right

2:07

up until the final scenes

2:10

of the final episode of series

2:12

one. It's kept ambiguous throughout who is

2:14

Hunter and who is Hunted. And there's this extraordinary

2:17

chemistry and tension and it's partly

2:20

erotic and it's partly destructive.

2:23

And that's why I like it. And I think it's really psychologically

2:25

interesting, Not so much because

2:27

of Villanelle, who is a sort of slightly straightforward

2:30

psychopath really, without sort

2:32

of compassion or empathy. But

2:35

more about the effect that she has on

2:37

Eve and how she really sort of screws with

2:40

Eve's internal world. Yeah,

2:42

and I

2:42

just love that it's two amazing, strong female

2:44

protagonists who are funny and smart. Makes

2:46

it really unusual. So, coming

2:49

up

2:50

on this show, we're going to be looking at who

2:52

really wants to kill Eve. Does

2:54

it mind not be who you think it is? We're going to look at

2:56

erotic suitcases. We've all had one of

2:59

those. Sexual fluidity

3:02

and where the chase itself can

3:04

be so thrilling. Obviously there's

3:06

going to be adult language in this one, adult

3:08

content and unashamed

3:10

plot spoilation. All right. You

3:13

know the deal. Welcome

3:15

to Shrink the Box.

3:21

For all of those of you who

3:23

have never seen Killing Eve, or maybe

3:26

those who haven't seen it since it came out,

3:29

here's a quick breakdown of where we're at,

3:31

Season 1. We've got Eve Polastri,

3:34

she's played by Sandra Oh, she's

3:36

bored with her role at MI5, she's basically

3:39

a protection dude, you know? She

3:41

gets fired alongside her colleague

3:43

Bill, maybe my favourite

3:45

character in those early episodes partly

3:48

because they call their boss a dick swap which

3:50

is fair. Eve's interest

3:53

in female assassins though,

3:55

is spotted by the big boss Caroline

3:57

Martins, played by Fiona sure and

3:59

she ask Eve to head up this kind

4:02

of secret off the books,

4:04

MI6 investigation team, and

4:07

they're running this investigation

4:10

into an international assassin called

4:12

Villanelle, who's played by Jodie Como.

4:15

And when Eve's path crosses Villanelle's

4:17

very early on, they begin this all

4:20

consuming, mutual obsession

4:23

with each other, right? So we're

4:25

going to kick off with Eve. Sash,

4:28

imagine there's a woman in your waiting

4:30

room,

4:31

she looks really uncomfortable, she's wearing

4:33

an incredibly expensive, perfectly fitting dress,

4:36

and her hair is soaking wet for some reason.

4:39

It's Eve Palastri. Yes,

4:41

the dress and the hair. I mean, they show how

4:44

much Eve's life gets transformed,

4:46

but we'll come onto those later. For

4:48

now, what we know of Eve is she

4:50

was born in England, raised in Connecticut, and is

4:53

of Korean heritage. She's married to

4:55

Nico, And it seems that marriage is happy

4:57

and loving, possibly a bit overly

4:59

comfortable and predictable. She's got a degree

5:01

in criminal psychology. She's long been

5:03

fascinated by female serial killers.

5:06

And that leads to her inclusion on this

5:08

team that just happens to be tracking female

5:10

serial killer Villanelle, who

5:13

pretty much throws a grenade into the sedate

5:16

life that even Nico have been living.

5:18

And Nico is, I don't want

5:21

to say long suffering, But he definitely

5:24

gets that in their

5:26

dynamic, it's his

5:29

wife who has the sort

5:31

of unscheduled kind of crazy

5:34

life. And he's very, very

5:36

okay with that. He deeply loves her,

5:39

but also can feel himself becoming

5:41

more and more

5:42

sidelined. Here's a clip of the

5:44

two of them in bed together. Do you

5:47

want to know sex? You sure? You

5:56

know someone is lying about the CCTV. Bill?

6:01

No. What did he say about the

6:03

recording? If I didn't tell

6:07

him. I need to get

6:09

more. And I need her consent

6:12

to record her. How bad have you

6:14

been? Really bad. You're

6:17

in the wrong department. You should have been

6:20

a spy. Exactly. Thank

6:22

you. Mmm. Sorry,

6:25

sex. I'm actually knackered. Oh,

6:27

good. Okay. And

6:31

the light goes off. That

6:42

was Eve, Sandra Oh and Nico,

6:44

played by Owen Macdonald from Season 1,

6:47

Episode 1, entitled Nice Face,

6:51

Killing Eve, as written by Phoebe Waller-Bridge

6:53

based on the Villanelle novels by Luke Jennings,

6:56

directed by Harry Bradbeer for Sid Gentle Films,

6:59

Endeavor Content, and BBC America. We'll

7:01

have the full credits as always for the rest

7:03

of the clips at the end of this episode.

7:06

Sasha, let's get into it

7:09

with Eve. What's the first thing you think you'd notice?

7:11

Well, yeah, I mean, you can hear in that clip that

7:14

she's in a happy marriage. They're very comfortable

7:16

with each other, possibly a little bit too

7:18

comfortable. So at first

7:20

she seems pretty normal, just

7:22

kind of well adjusted. She's got

7:24

good relationships with her, the people that work

7:27

for her. Eleanor really likes her, her employee

7:29

and Bill, her boss, also really likes her, so

7:31

she can kind of like connect with people

7:34

above her and below her and she's got this loving

7:36

husband. So all seems pretty well adjusted

7:38

and happy. But

7:41

when Villanelle arrives,

7:43

we kind of see that actually there's possibly

7:45

something that has been missing. The only

7:47

clue we get to her early life is when she tells

7:50

Carolyn, I married my father.

7:53

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. Yeah, and that's

7:55

quite interesting because that tells

7:57

us quite a lot. If Nico, who we see is solid

7:59

and depend- and sort of the homemaker

8:01

and safe, her father must have been as well. And

8:05

I mean, I've talked a little bit in previous episodes about

8:07

attachment styles. Eve

8:09

is showing that she's securely attached. Clearly

8:12

her dad was loving and dependable and enabled

8:14

her to have these good relationships, and that's who

8:16

she's married, which is great because

8:18

the more solid and secure

8:21

we are, the more stable the foundation,

8:24

the more that gives us the ability to go off and explore

8:26

and spread our wings. But there's

8:29

also something,

8:30

this isn't a given, it doesn't mean everyone

8:32

who's securely attached will also have

8:34

unmet needs. Time to second guess your marriages

8:37

guys, all of you. But in Eve's

8:39

case, there is something

8:41

that is missing that Niko

8:44

isn't providing, and that's the sort of

8:46

the opening the villanelle gets into.

8:48

At the same time, this almost

8:50

immediate attraction to this

8:53

killer, I mean, where does that

8:56

attraction come from?

8:58

I think there's a lot in there that Villanelle

9:01

provides Eve. I

9:03

think there is an unmet need in her that

9:05

her comfortable existence didn't show her. She was very

9:07

happy in the sort of the comfort zone and

9:09

like you say the being fired pushes

9:12

her towards the edges and I think she gets quite

9:15

excited at the thought of seeing

9:18

how much further she can go and Villanelle

9:20

is kind of like holding up a

9:23

mirror to that of all the things that she

9:25

could be.

9:26

I mean, listen, I get that

9:29

we all have that thing of like,

9:32

maybe the grass is greener, or what if I

9:34

did this, you know, some of us might even

9:36

go, what if I just threw a hand

9:38

grenade into this life of mine,

9:41

because it's all it's fine, but it's all just

9:43

very lit feels very linear. And this

9:47

issue, I

9:48

can safely say I've never been tempted

9:50

to do. Let me throw myself

9:52

into a situation where there's every

9:54

chance that someone's going to get murdered.

9:58

Why

9:59

would someone? choose danger

10:01

over safety like that? I

10:03

think if you've never really kind of

10:05

felt the excitement of

10:07

the thrill of the chase or a dangerous

10:10

element in your life, it can feel really tantalizing.

10:13

So physiologically, there's a real

10:15

similarity between the feelings of

10:18

excitement and the feelings of fear. So

10:20

when we are frightened and we're kind

10:22

of aroused and excited, there's a

10:25

quickening of the breath, as the heart rate goes

10:27

up, the blood pressure goes up, all the

10:29

kind of blood goes from our internal organs

10:31

out into our limbs and there's a sort of vibrancy.

10:35

All of that adrenaline makes you feel more alive,

10:37

even like your vision and your hearing is a bit more

10:40

heightened. So there's a real awakening.

10:43

And I think what's really interesting is that at

10:45

the beginning, Eve does look

10:47

a bit washed out and a bit tired

10:50

and a bit gray and a bit like a woman in her

10:52

mid-40s. And like she says

10:54

with Nico there, that I can't really

10:56

be bothered to have sex and it's all a bit kind

10:58

of all, it's like there's no life force and

11:00

it's almost like this is what's going to enliven

11:03

her. She's going to get that sense of fear,

11:05

which feels physiologically like excitement.

11:08

And the thing with the similarity in terms

11:10

of our physical response to those two things is it's

11:13

often the interpretation or the meaning

11:16

that we make of those feelings that

11:18

turns it into either, oh my God, I'm really anxious

11:20

because I can't cope or, oh,

11:23

I'm really kind of turned on and aroused

11:25

and I want to get on the roller coaster because I love

11:27

that feeling. Or there's no way I'm going near

11:29

that new job offer because I

11:31

can't bear the fear. So it's about what you

11:34

can tolerate physiologically and whether you

11:36

think this is exciting and I want to pursue

11:38

it or this is frightening and I don't want to pursue

11:40

it.

11:40

I think every human being teeters around

11:42

those thoughts at some stage. And

11:45

often it can be something that

11:48

someone you love or a close friend is going

11:50

through. Like they might experience it first.

11:53

We see that with her and Bill, don't we? I mean,

11:55

when Bill was like, cause

11:57

they're really close friends. Yeah. But

12:00

she doesn't actually know anything about

12:02

certain elements of his, key elements of his

12:04

private life. So she finds out that

12:07

he was bisexual and he had like some wild

12:09

nights and whatnot. It's not just a

12:11

surprise and it's not just, oh, my friend's

12:14

even cooler than I thought he was. There's

12:16

also a bit of like, God, what have I done?

12:19

How many men have you been in love with? Hundreds.

12:21

Does Kate go now? She's got her own thing going

12:24

on. Wow.

12:26

Bill. There's a sense of possibility

12:28

about, oh, maybe I could

12:31

try a different version of me. I think that's what

12:33

a lot of this is about. It's her exploring

12:36

different versions of her that either

12:39

she hasn't felt the lack of, or she has been

12:41

dimly aware that that version

12:43

of her hasn't been allowed out. I mean,

12:45

there's that tension between safety and

12:48

danger. Again, different people are going

12:50

to play that edge, play that line

12:53

differently. I mean, is that something that you recognize?

12:56

If you

12:56

kind of... Definitely. I think

12:58

every human being at some stage

13:00

goes, I've been doing the same thing for a

13:02

long time. Yeah. You

13:04

know, whatever that might be, whether it's professional or personal.

13:07

And if you haven't, I just think, really?

13:09

Yeah. Like, so you've just nailed it from

13:12

when you went from the

13:14

very first moment you picked your GCSEs,

13:16

you just knew like, this is it, this is what

13:18

I'm going to do. And I wonder with Eve,

13:21

how aware

13:22

of all of that stuff is

13:24

she? Because one of my favorite

13:26

scenes in the whole series,

13:29

I rewound it and watched it three

13:31

times because it was so good.

13:33

It's like the cold open of

13:36

one of the early episodes, maybe episode three or

13:38

four. And she's

13:40

in sort of interrogation room and

13:43

the camera is super tight on her and we're

13:45

doing a really slow pan around her face.

13:48

And Eve is describing

13:51

Villanelle.

13:52

She had very delicate

13:54

features. Her

13:56

eyes are sort of cat-like, wide.

13:59

But also... alert. Her

14:02

lips are full. She

14:04

has a long neck, high cheek

14:07

bones. Her

14:10

skin is smooth

14:12

and bright. She

14:15

had a lost look in her eye that

14:18

was both direct

14:21

and also

14:23

chilling. She's

14:26

totally focused. get

14:30

almost entirely inaccessible. So

14:37

is that like a square face or an oval

14:39

face? I

14:41

know, it's classic feeding on the bridge. So

14:43

good, so funny.

14:46

And it's so brilliant because she

14:49

describes her

14:50

like Shakespeare in love.

14:53

She describes her, yeah, it's like

14:56

a beautiful sonnet. Is that the

14:58

moment, does she know from then

15:00

that this woman is getting deeply

15:02

under her skin? Or has she always had

15:05

an unhealthy fixation on females

15:08

who live their lives outside

15:11

the borders of what we

15:13

might think is acceptable?

15:15

Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's both because

15:17

she has always had this fascination with

15:19

female serial killers. I think that was what her PhD

15:22

was in or what she studied. But

15:24

it's always remained very kind of

15:26

intellectual. It's never actually. Yeah,

15:29

it's been it's been a cognitive

15:31

exercise. And now it's actually entering

15:33

her life. Now it's like a full bodied kind

15:36

of, OK, she's here in

15:38

my world. So I think there's a sort

15:40

of parallel process almost of

15:42

a conscious knowledge that she's interested

15:44

in

15:45

this and then a kind of

15:47

unconscious.

15:48

Oh, what if that were my

15:50

life or

15:51

what if I had something like that? women

15:53

that kill is it? It's like for her

15:55

it seems to be it's like women who do what

15:57

they want.

15:58

Villanelle is powerful.

16:00

gives full rein to her

16:02

aggression, to her sexuality,

16:04

to her complete selfishness. I

16:06

mean, that's why she's a psychopath really.

16:08

That's why I don't think she's as interesting

16:11

a character because psychopaths, they don't

16:13

form relationships. They just

16:15

literally, it's all about what is gonna serve

16:17

me. Later when we meet

16:20

Anna, who was Villanelle's former

16:22

lover and we learn that

16:25

Villanelle killed Anna's husband

16:27

And she actually thinks that Anna would be happy

16:30

that she's killed her husband because

16:32

she doesn't understand. She set

16:34

the whole murder up like a present, like a gift.

16:36

Yes, and she's there with like champagne and balloons.

16:39

She can't compute that actually Anna might be a bit

16:42

upset that her husband has been murdered.

16:45

So she doesn't really have much going on in

16:48

terms of ability to change or

16:50

ability to empathise or ability to have compassion,

16:53

which is why I find her less interesting. It's

16:55

the effect she has on Eve.

16:57

And is Eve conveniently

16:59

brushing over the murders

17:03

and the psychopathic behavior?

17:05

No, I don't think she's brushing over it. I think

17:07

that's part of the fascination is that

17:10

how can somebody be so

17:12

immune to their effects

17:14

on other people, can be just so single-minded.

17:16

So I think she's really interested that somebody

17:18

can allow their

17:20

violence, their sexuality.

17:23

They're just absolute, I'm doing this for

17:25

me and screw the rest of you.

17:26

There is a moment where it

17:29

felt like things became really

17:32

sexually charged when

17:34

a suitcase gets stolen, Eve's

17:37

suitcase gets stolen by Villanelle.

17:40

And when it comes back, it's got all

17:42

these new

17:43

clothes in it that Villanelle's bought

17:45

for her. And there's

17:47

this scene where she tries on one of

17:49

these dresses. For all intents

17:51

and purposes, it seems like she's gonna start masturbating

17:54

at any like moment. It's

17:56

the way she starts to touch her body over

17:58

the dress.

17:59

Yeah, I mean I...

18:00

I find the whole thing so fabulously

18:02

kind of both literal and metaphorical, because it's

18:05

like there's the dissolving of barriers

18:07

between that intellectual curiosity

18:09

and that oh, this is entering my home. It's almost like

18:11

foreplay. It's like Villanelle

18:14

provides her with perfume and a

18:16

vision of the sort of person she could be in. It's like she's

18:18

trying on the clothes for size to

18:20

see whether can I be this other

18:23

sexy, sultry, bisexual adventurer.

18:26

It's like a production scene. She's

18:28

checking herself out in the mirror as well.

18:30

Yeah. And I think mirrors

18:32

play quite a large part in this, that

18:34

sense of, do I recognise what's looking

18:36

back at me? Is this a me that I can

18:38

embody? It's so different from the washed

18:41

out grey kind of

18:42

cooked clay. And is this what the person who

18:44

lusts after me sees? Like,

18:47

why don't I see it myself and all of that? Then,

18:50

of course,

18:52

there's a real climactic

18:54

moment where they properly meet.

18:56

breaks in to her house, Nico's

18:59

not there.

19:01

And she's got this designer dress

19:03

on.

19:04

So Villanelle

19:07

knows straight away, oh. So

19:10

you're not repulsed, clearly. No,

19:12

there's a frisson throughout. There

19:16

is sort of deepening levels of penetration.

19:19

First she gets into her head, then the suitcase gets

19:21

into the house and she's in her, she's She's got her clothes

19:23

on and then actually literally the Villanelle

19:27

penetrates her home. She's there in person.

19:29

There's

19:29

like so many erotic touches

19:32

without erotic touching, like actual

19:34

touching. So when

19:36

she sees that Villanelle

19:39

has come into the house, she hides, Eve hides

19:41

in the bath. Yeah. Villanelle

19:43

barges in. Of course. And

19:46

soaks Eve's head by turning

19:48

the tap. know we cut to the kitchen,

19:50

he stood there soaking wet and

19:53

Villanelle wants to have a romantic dinner.

19:55

Yeah, again, it's that, am

19:57

I around sexually or am I terrified?

20:00

And Villanelle is just sort of cool and

20:02

calm and collected throughout and she

20:04

spots that Eve is like hiding a knife

20:06

and she's like, no, it's okay, you hang on to that if that makes

20:08

you feel safer. And then there's

20:10

this weird dinner where they eat

20:12

leftover shepherd's pie and Villanelle's

20:15

acting like this sort of old fashioned man where

20:17

she's kind of just like plowing in and Yeah,

20:19

like no knife, just a fork

20:22

in the right hand scooping it up. Yeah.

20:25

It's a bit like watching an episode of First Dates.

20:27

Yeah. Just like really

20:29

awkward. Yeah, but Villanelle's

20:32

in control in a way that Eve, and again,

20:35

the sort of soaking wet dress and the wet hair

20:37

and the sort of semi-naked kind of let's get you

20:39

out of these wet clothes thing. It's

20:41

all sort of playing with it. Is this terrifying or is

20:43

it kind of seductive?

20:44

So Villanelle actually undresses

20:47

her and now we're right on the

20:49

edge. Yeah. I mean, it

20:52

is like she's stripping her back to, you

20:54

know, this, you could be somebody else, let's

20:56

see what you could be. And Eve's

20:59

very vulnerable in that moment.

21:01

I'm imagining from the scene that we've

21:04

seen and heard in this episode of Eve

21:06

and Nico in bed,

21:08

that there's not a massive amount of that

21:10

kind of

21:11

electricity in the air, full play,

21:14

you know, that feeling like when you're eating together,

21:16

like this is just a prelude, There's

21:19

definitely going to be amazing sex later. And

21:21

Villanelle right now,

21:23

despite the fact that she could murder anyone,

21:26

including Eve any moment,

21:28

right now for Eve, this is providing that.

21:30

You know, there's again, there's this sort of filmic trope

21:33

where Villanelle kind of pushes her

21:35

up against the fridge and it's sort of, you

21:37

kind of see that in so many things where this sort of masterful

21:39

man kind of pushes the vulnerable

21:42

woman up against the fridge.

21:43

And she succumbs. And she succumbs.

21:45

And I think that's really interesting because it is

21:47

showing her what she's been missing.

21:49

It couldn't be more different to the boring

21:52

married sex that she and Nico can't really be bothered

21:54

to go through with. and cheers

21:56

turns on while being frightened. But

21:59

that is not to say.

22:00

that being frightened is a turn

22:02

on for everybody, because it's not

22:04

at all. But if there is something

22:06

that's been lacking, it can be quite thrilling

22:09

to play with that notion.

22:12

That's why people have sex games and play sort

22:14

of dominant submissive games,

22:16

because it's a way of in a safe space, allowing

22:19

out the bit of you that you don't normally

22:21

allow to come out to play. But you do it

22:24

with the safe words and with boundaries. So

22:27

it's not the same as actually

22:30

wanting to be frightened during sex. It's

22:32

a very different thing. You can play out in fantasy

22:34

something you absolutely don't want to happen in

22:37

reality. So I think that's an important point to make

22:39

that we're not saying that, oh, great, she she's

22:41

really excited by this sort of frightening, frightening

22:44

killer with a knife at her throat, and that's making her

22:46

want to have sex. It's not. It's a it's

22:48

a metaphor. It's a fantasy. But

22:51

also it's not. I don't think it's necessarily a male,

22:53

female dynamic. I mean, we

22:55

see anyway, this is two women. so it's not. But I

22:57

was thinking about Don Draper, who we covered

23:00

in the Mad Men episode. Do go back and listen

23:02

if you haven't had a chance yet. He has

23:04

a very similar thing. He has a very boring,

23:07

stable, respectable wife

23:09

at home in Betty. And he too is feeling

23:11

the lack and he goes off chasing kind of

23:14

opinionated career women like Rachel

23:16

and Midge. So again, I

23:18

kind of can't stress enough, I'm not saying women

23:20

want to have like masterful, frightening

23:23

It's finding ways, whether you're a man

23:25

or a woman, of allowing a bit of you

23:27

that doesn't normally get an outing.

23:29

Yeah, got it. All right, well

23:31

that's, I think that might be the

23:34

most exciting we've had in the first half of a shrink

23:36

the box episode. So coming up after the break,

23:39

we're gonna look at why pushing on cracked glass

23:41

at a bus stop means more than just a cut hand,

23:44

and who it is actually trying to kill

23:46

Eve and why. Plus

23:48

we're gonna dig deeper into sexual fluidity,

23:51

and why the chase is just so endlessly

23:54

attractive to us humans. So

23:56

we're going to be back after some words from our

23:58

sponsor unless you're a sub-

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28:04

All

28:05

right, we're back in business. Now, the

28:07

thing that I wondered throughout that

28:10

season one, you know, we're talking

28:12

about the

28:13

grass is greener, alternate lifestyles.

28:16

Do you think

28:18

she would have come up against this problem anyway

28:20

and done something about it

28:22

without Villanelle being the trigger?

28:23

A lot of people have those bits of themselves

28:26

that do remain dormant and

28:28

don't need to be explored. But

28:30

I think Villanelle's sort of pushing on an open

28:32

door really. I don't think we can

28:34

answer that definitively. I think that there

28:36

is a need in Eve for

28:39

excitement. I mean, if you contrast it with Nico,

28:41

who similarly seems, you

28:43

know, securely attached and capable of relationships

28:46

and he's happy being sort of

28:48

safe and dependable. I mean,

28:51

he doesn't seem to need that extra

28:53

level of excitement. He's not thinking

28:55

the grass is greener. And That could be because,

28:58

I mean, this is complete speculation, but

29:00

it shows that...

29:01

That's the show. Yes, it's the show.

29:03

But also it shows that,

29:06

you know, there's so many different permutations.

29:08

So Eve may well have had a very securely

29:10

attached childhood, which left her wanting

29:13

more. Nico may have had

29:15

a securely attached childhood, but with a parent

29:17

who was perhaps unpredictable or

29:19

always thrill seeking, maybe he'd had enough

29:22

of that. Maybe he was fed up with not knowing

29:24

if his parents were going to come home or being

29:26

dragged off on foreign holidays that frightens him or

29:28

something. So for him, all he wants is to

29:31

be safe and dependable. And he doesn't necessarily

29:33

think all the

29:33

grass is greener because he may have already experienced

29:36

that in some way. And he enjoys

29:38

it. We see little bits of proof of that. You

29:40

remember where Sonya

29:43

is the first time she's away, maybe when she's

29:45

just joined the secret MI6

29:47

outfit, and she misses the

29:50

evening that he's set up

29:52

with all their friends. Yeah. And they're having a great

29:54

time. We can see it, we can feel it on

29:57

Zoom. And you get the sense in that moment.

30:00

She

30:00

loves those nights. And we see that

30:02

flash in her eyes as well of

30:04

like, fuck, I actually really loved those nights

30:07

as well. But that's, these are the stakes

30:09

I'm playing with now. I might lose that

30:11

forever.

30:12

Yeah, she's really conflicted. She wants

30:14

both. And in a

30:16

way, part of what therapy

30:18

is about is can we somehow

30:21

integrate those two polarities

30:23

that need for safety and danger?

30:25

Can they exist in one life? For

30:28

some people it does feel like it has to be a choice.

30:30

And for others, they can somehow

30:32

allow their marriage to evolve or their life

30:34

to evolve in a way that you don't

30:37

have to have

30:38

one or the other. You can somehow integrate

30:40

the different bits of you, but you explore them in different

30:43

ways. So maybe if Nico is never gonna change,

30:45

she could just make her job more exciting,

30:48

but without the scary

30:50

villain element, or I don't know, they

30:52

go skydiving together. Whatever it is,

30:54

it doesn't mean necessarily the marriage

30:56

is over, if she can find, get

30:58

those needs met in a different way.

31:00

There's a sense that once she's opened

31:03

this door, this portal,

31:05

so to speak, to a new version of herself,

31:08

there's

31:08

no way of closing

31:11

it or going back through it.

31:14

The dangers of that, where it can

31:16

take you. Can you start telling

31:18

yourself, well, this is the real me,

31:21

this Dangerous me

31:23

who throws grenades left, right and centre. This is

31:25

the real me. I'm being true to myself

31:28

now.

31:28

That is a danger that people sort of, again,

31:30

it's that polarisation of I'm either completely

31:32

safe or I'm completely dangerous. But

31:34

actually I slightly push back against that notion

31:36

of the real me because I think we have several

31:38

real me's. Then we have like multiple

31:41

selves and they're all real but

31:43

it's just which ones we allowed to kind

31:45

of take charge and which ones we want to

31:48

suppress and whether they can each have an equal

31:50

kind of role to play. So

31:53

she's definitely trying on for size a role

31:55

that she hasn't been allowed to explore.

31:58

What have we got to this place? where

32:01

the very boundaries of Eve's

32:03

marriage are being tested, where we feel

32:05

like the elastic band is being stretched

32:08

to the point of snapping. I mean, check

32:10

out this clip. Dammit, I don't want to shout

32:12

at you. I think you should. What?

32:15

Shout at me, come on. Why? To make you feel better?

32:17

No, God, to make you feel better. That doesn't

32:19

make me feel better. You,

32:22

alive, at home, without

32:23

scary ladies breaking into our

32:25

house,

32:26

makes me feel better. She will keep

32:28

breaking in and she will keep hurting

32:30

people until I catch her, okay? I

32:33

have to find her. She wants me to find

32:35

her.

32:35

Jesus! Do you want me to hold back your cape

32:37

a little bit so you can go down and yourself

32:40

a bit more? You're not saving the world,

32:42

honeybunch! You're getting off

32:44

and sniffing her in a psycho! Oh! No,

32:52

you don't want that in your life. Trust me.

32:58

It's okay. Let's just

33:01

get a curry. Forget that

33:03

happened and go home and

33:06

apologise with tea. I can't.

33:09

I have a work thing. So Sash,

33:11

how has it got to this?

33:13

It's almost like she gives Nico the chance

33:15

to change. It's almost like she's showing

33:17

him, I need this marriage to evolve. It's almost

33:19

like she's saying, I need you to be more passionate.

33:22

And he says that you don't want that in your

33:25

life. Trust me, which is actually another reason

33:27

why it makes me wonder what sort of childhood

33:29

he had. Like the trust me, you do not want

33:31

excitement suggests to me that he's experienced

33:33

excitement. That was quite a pointed

33:36

line. It's that charge. It's that life

33:38

force that she wants him to push back against

33:41

rather than just endlessly She's saying, oh, okay,

33:43

let's go home and have a cup of tea and a curry. It's like, no,

33:45

I don't want to go backwards. Come

33:48

with me. And he doesn't. So

33:50

she's sort of on her own with

33:52

this need to change.

33:54

We're seeing a big shift. This

33:56

is like one of those things where

33:58

She's fast forwarded and gone.

34:00

I'm single now.

34:01

Yeah, I think there's a scene that I really

34:03

love because to me it feels like it sums up

34:06

that moment. So it actually comes

34:08

off to a really horrible bit where she's seen her

34:10

boss Frank, her other boss Frank

34:12

be castrated and murdered. So

34:15

she's very traumatized as anyone would be.

34:17

And she's sitting in a bus stop and the glass

34:20

on the side of the bus stop has a crack in it and she

34:22

kind of gets fascinated and she pushes

34:24

on the crack in the glass. And I think

34:26

that's so metaphorical because it's almost like

34:29

she could push on it and say, oh, that's

34:31

a bit fragile. I won't push any further.

34:34

Or she can do what she does do, which is she pushes it

34:36

so hard that it shatters. And it's almost like in that

34:38

moment, it's like, no, I don't want the boundaries.

34:40

I want to just shatter. I want my life

34:42

to be fragmented. I want the freedom of

34:44

being able to fly out through the glass. I mean, I'm

34:46

slightly torturing this metaphor. No,

34:48

but I think you're 100% right. And it even

34:50

goes beyond that because there's a frame and

34:53

she wants to reframe her position

34:55

in life. I think it's all there. And if you only take

34:58

one of the various men

35:00

for us from there, you still sort of get

35:02

it. I mean, it's a turning point,

35:04

right? How much of it is

35:06

conscious? Like, how much of it do you think

35:09

she's like,

35:10

okay, new day, new

35:12

dawn, new eve?

35:13

I don't think it's hugely

35:16

conscious. I think she's acting on impulse.

35:18

I think she's sort of very much led by

35:20

her heightened sense of arousal

35:23

here. She's sort of following that kind of adrenaline

35:26

charge where the nervous system is more

35:28

in control than the cognitive intellectual

35:31

side. So I think she's being led

35:33

by that new sense of possibility.

35:36

In a way, a lot of people's version of pressing on

35:38

that glass is to come into therapy. They've spotted

35:40

that there's a cracked boundary to their life

35:43

and they want to

35:43

know how much can I change? How much can

35:46

I press on it? Whereas Eve

35:48

is, it was almost like you say, she's kind of left Nico

35:50

behind. She's like, no, right, I'm gonna smash this glass

35:53

and go through it on my own.

35:54

dangerous now, right? Yeah. that

35:56

in mind, you know, we said at the top

35:58

like who's killing Eve? And

36:01

people are thinking, what are you talking about? There's a psychopathic

36:03

killer out there who's got

36:06

every chance of killing Eve. Very soon you

36:08

realize, well,

36:09

she doesn't necessarily want to kill Eve. So

36:12

who's killing Eve? Yeah,

36:13

well, I think this is also why it's so clever

36:15

because I think it does work on that unconscious

36:17

level as well. We've got that, oh, Villarell is

36:19

trying to kill Eve. But I think

36:21

we can also look at this as Eve's internal

36:24

struggle between those different selves. She's

36:27

got the part of her that's been awakened

36:29

that is like aggressive and reckless

36:32

and wants adventure. And she's got

36:34

the bit of her that is possibly a bit more sexually

36:36

fluid, that she might want to explore that side

36:38

of her. She's got the tired, sad,

36:41

bored, washed out, 40 something

36:44

Eve. And it's almost like, does she want to

36:46

kill off those bits? Or does

36:48

she want to kill off the new bits that she's

36:50

frightened of? So which version

36:52

of Eve is she metaphorically killing

36:55

within herself?

36:55

And she's in the process of it. therefore

36:58

we're in the present tense. She is possibly

37:01

killing Eve and also

37:03

possibly putting her life

37:05

in danger so she could literally

37:07

be killing Eve here.

37:08

Yeah, well yes that's that as well. She's

37:10

got to be careful. I think if you look at the sort

37:13

of the sexual side, I mean she is

37:15

a woman in her 40s who, you

37:17

know, it's in such recent memory that

37:19

it's become more talked about sort of sexual fluidity

37:22

and what people are allowed to explore.

37:24

So for somebody of her

37:26

age, being able to admit

37:30

feelings of bisexuality or homosexuality

37:32

might have felt really transgressive. She might

37:34

still be frightened of that bit of her. So

37:37

is she wanting to kill the bit that's turned

37:39

on by Villanelle? Or is she wanting

37:41

to kill off the bit of her that is frightened of

37:43

it and the old boring bit of her? You almost

37:46

see her transformed over the

37:48

course of the series. She's so much more young

37:50

and alive at the end of it. It's

37:52

almost like she's feeding off Villanelle's

37:55

energy. It's almost like vampiric in a

37:57

way. It's like she's

37:57

taking on a video. Villanelle's

38:00

characteristics, including her

38:02

youth and her lust and her energy and

38:04

her life force.

38:05

You're approaching middle age. Mmm, yeah.

38:08

Flaring to have this young attractive person

38:10

regardless of what their or your sexuality

38:13

is.

38:13

Absolutely. I mean, I would

38:15

also even question whether she wants to have sex with her because

38:17

by the end, I mean, we're sort of leaping ahead a bit,

38:20

but by the end, when it feels as though they're going to

38:22

have sex, I don't know at that

38:24

point whether

38:25

Eve genuinely wants to or whether she's

38:27

learned from Villanelle those skills of manipulation

38:30

and deceit, that she's able to

38:32

pretend to Villanelle that that's what

38:34

she wants in order to get close enough to stab her,

38:37

or whether she genuinely wants

38:39

to have sex with her. And that ambiguity, the fact that

38:41

we never know...

38:42

I really didn't know. At

38:46

first I thought when she said, I'm tired, oh,

38:48

she's got a plan. And

38:50

then when Villanelle

38:53

joins are on the bed and they're both lying on

38:55

the back and then Villanelle turns to her for, oh

38:57

my God.

38:57

Yeah. Well, I don't think she knows.

39:00

They're just going to have sex. Yeah.

39:03

Villanelle would definitely have sex with her. Oh yeah, no question. Yeah.

39:06

The other way around, I think you're right. I don't think we'll

39:08

ever know, but...

39:09

Well, Villanelle owns her sexuality

39:11

in a way that Eve doesn't. Yeah.

39:14

And it's, you know, kind of, that's part of

39:16

the fascination, the erotic charge is

39:18

that she is so unashamedly, I

39:21

want you. And Eve is a bit like, oh,

39:23

I think the final scene, or the close

39:25

to final scene where there's a sort of reverse

39:28

where Eve infiltrates Villanelle's apartment

39:31

in the same way that Villanelle went

39:33

into hers. And she's there on her

39:36

own. And again, there's that sort of image of the mirror

39:38

and the trying on the clothes, and she's smashing

39:40

out Villanelle's apartment. She's breaking champagne

39:43

bottles. And when When Villanelle comes

39:45

back, she kind of screams

39:47

at her, I've lost two jobs, a husband and a

39:49

best friend because of you. And then in typical

39:52

Phoebe Waller Bridge style, Villanelle

39:54

says, yeah, but you've got some really nice clothes that I was offered.

39:58

But it is, you know, it's hilarious. But

40:00

it's also at what cost

40:02

this attempt to be someone else. A

40:05

question we sort of have to ask our clients, what are

40:07

you prepared to lose in order to gain

40:10

something that you were lacking? And

40:12

that question is going to be different to everybody.

40:14

You know, she's lost a lot. She's gained clothes,

40:17

as in a new version, a new identity.

40:19

But is it worth it? And again, why

40:21

I think it's so clever is there's no resolution.

40:24

She doesn't know how much is worth

40:27

it. And similarly, there's no resolution

40:29

with can she kill her or

40:31

not. She tries to, but Villanelle

40:34

escapes. So again, is that

40:37

internally Eve not knowing

40:39

how much did I want to kill off these versions of myself?

40:41

How much are they still like Villanelle out

40:44

there wreaking havoc? They're internally

40:46

wreaking havoc because I still don't know. Do

40:49

I want to go home to my safe husband? Do

40:51

I want to pursue Villanelle further?

40:53

interesting that shrinking

40:55

the head of Eve, even after

40:58

all, is not 100% certain

41:01

that she wants this game to end.

41:04

Which again, I think is real life. I mean,

41:06

I don't think we ever neatly resolve,

41:08

I'm this person or I'm that person. It's like, no, I've

41:11

got these different versions of me. They're

41:13

going to carry on living inside me. It's how

41:15

much am I going to let each one

41:17

out? How much is tolerable and how much do

41:20

I want to suppress? and how much do I want to

41:22

continue pursuing Volanil and still go home

41:24

to Nico?

41:25

Yeah, you're right. Like leaving it open like

41:27

that, it actually throws up a lot more interesting,

41:31

complicated, real life reflections

41:35

than just like, oh, and now they're

41:37

shagging. Yeah, exactly. Oh,

41:39

it's that show.

41:42

Much more clever than that.

41:44

Yeah, it really is. What a show. Thanks, Sash.

41:46

So our post bag is getting

41:50

Bokeh and Bokeh and Bokeh. Thank

41:52

you for the love. Here we go. Dear Ben

41:54

and Sasha. and my dad is a long time film

41:56

and TV fan, my mum is a psychotherapist,

41:59

same.

42:00

I mean, naturally, I never

42:02

thought I'd live in a world where they're too interested

42:04

with marriage, but you made this miracle happen.

42:06

And finally, your podcast is a place they can

42:08

meet in their difference and find

42:10

similarity. We're saving marriages,

42:12

sash, now. That's what we're doing. I am a training

42:15

psychotherapist and huge film TV fan.

42:18

Your podcast has given me a gift. Each week I sit

42:20

down and listen to your latest analysis

42:22

of who's on the couch, a process I find

42:24

energizing, inspiring, and calming

42:26

all at once. passion ripples through

42:28

each episode and it's a joy to

42:30

hear you merging two of my great pleasures

42:32

in a way I'd never thought I'd hear on

42:34

a podcast. You are so appreciated.

42:36

Love

42:37

Abby. PS on behalf of my dad,

42:39

I'd recommend Patrick Jane from The Mentalist.

42:42

No explanation needed. That's a lovely

42:45

email. And Marianne says,

42:47

Dear Couch Potatoes, absolutely

42:50

loving the pod. A suggestion, would you

42:52

consider foreign language TV for analysis? I

42:54

don't I see why not absolutely being

42:56

a native Dane. I might suggest Sarah

42:58

Lund the killing. Oh my god, definitely

43:01

I love that show loved it. In fact,

43:03

we've got a little crossover haven't we with Danish

43:06

TV from

43:07

today's

43:08

Episode because the guy who plays

43:11

Constantine. Oh, yes is actually

43:13

Danish isn't he's from that show the bridge

43:16

Yeah, his name is Kim Bodhnya. Yeah,

43:18

and I absolutely loved him in yes

43:19

Yes, I did. And in

43:22

this, actually. Yeah, he's great in this. There's something

43:24

about him. He's so funny. He is. Yeah, so

43:26

Sarah Linden, obvious contender, definitely. But there's plenty

43:29

to pick from, says Marianne. Melvenlyhusen.

43:34

I think that means a friendly, high

43:37

warmest regards. Melvenlyhusen,

43:40

Marianne. Thank you. And just to let you know,

43:42

we do add all these names to

43:44

our massive wall with

43:47

the push pins and pieces of string and creepy

43:49

photos. So keep going. And

43:52

it doesn't have to be suggestions

43:54

of people. It can just be your

43:57

experience of this pod. I love to hear.

44:00

So that's shrink the box at something

44:02

without the G else dot

44:04

com Make sure you spread

44:06

the word the more people that Get

44:10

involved that listen to shrink

44:12

the box the more episodes we're gonna

44:15

do for you, man I mean, that's the way it works. So

44:17

follow us on Apple podcasts Spotify

44:19

stitcher Amazon music wherever you get

44:22

your podcast from

44:24

you'll get the new episodes there, I promise you. And

44:26

if you want to listen ad-free, subscribe

44:28

to Extra Takes, yeah? Because

44:30

it gets you ad-free episodes of the show and

44:33

ad-free episodes from Kermode and Mayo's Take, as

44:36

well as access to all their subscriber only

44:38

stuff. And there's tons of that. So you can

44:40

start a free trial, no press,

44:42

click try free at the top of the shrink the box show

44:45

page on Apple podcasts, or

44:47

if you prefer, go to extratakes.com

44:49

on the old browser. just left to thank

44:52

our amazing production team who make this show

44:55

sound so pro. Because trust me, if

44:57

it was just me and my voice

44:59

notes on my phone,

45:01

it's not gonna sound as lovely as it does. So

45:03

that's down to production management,

45:05

Lily Hanblin, the assistant producer, Bashak

45:07

Erton, social media, Jonathan

45:10

Emieri, studio engineer is Josh

45:12

Gibbs, and mix engineer is Gulliver

45:14

Tickle, the

45:15

senior producer, of course, Selena Rheem,

45:18

and the exec producer, Simon Paul.

45:20

So, Sasha, I

45:23

am primed and ready. Who

45:26

are we digging into next week? I'm feeling like

45:28

it's a departure, frankly.

45:30

Well, it is, because whether you're into

45:32

this show or not, we're gonna look at two

45:35

people who came out very differently,

45:37

even though they had the same parents. Have

45:40

a listen.

45:41

Even when you were a kid and you were chubby

45:43

and you had no friends, you were just fine. And

45:48

you agreed alone in your room and

45:50

your puzzles? Look,

45:55

there are people like Ross who need to

45:57

shoot for the stars with his museum

45:59

and and

46:00

as paper is getting published, other

46:02

people are satisfied with staying where they are. I'm

46:04

telling you, these are the people who never get cancer.

46:07

And I read about these women

46:10

trying to have it all, and

46:14

I thank God our little harmonica

46:16

doesn't seem to have

46:17

that. I'm

46:20

quite excited because this is, this

46:23

is a whole new challenge for us, right? 90s,

46:27

canned laughter, Elliot Gold,

46:29

it has to be Friends. It

46:32

is Friends, the iconic series,

46:35

a comedy with very broad

46:37

strokes in terms of character, and it

46:39

does sometimes tackle things a bit clumsily.

46:42

But it did cover some really

46:44

important issues, suicide, same-sex

46:47

marriage, infertility, adoption, surrogacy,

46:49

single parenthood, all while

46:51

appearing very middle of the road. Friends

46:54

remains the most watched show on Netflix

46:56

UK and the second most watched on Netflix

46:59

US.

46:59

Okay, so here's the big question then,

47:02

that famous six characters

47:06

of those, who are we picking?

47:08

We are going to look at the two siblings, Monica

47:11

and Ross. They are so different and

47:13

we're going to look at how they came to be

47:15

so and how much the parents

47:17

have influenced their characters. So

47:20

Ross is definitely the golden boy, but has

47:22

very low self-esteem when it comes to women. Monica

47:25

is underestimated, and that's led to

47:28

her having intrusive control issues. It's

47:30

going to be like Bloodline all over again,

47:32

isn't it? With a few more laughs. Of

47:35

course, it's

47:37

all about these six friends sharing a flat in New

47:39

York, but you can tell that it's shot

47:42

in LA because nobody

47:45

had apartments in New York that big.

47:48

Yeah, it was all shot in LA and

47:51

not New York friends, which is probably how they

47:53

got those celebrity cameos like

47:55

Brad George Clooney was in

47:57

it, Julia Roberts, Christina Applegate.

48:00

Yeah, and at least with a spoon, I think,

48:02

as well. Tom Selleck in it as well. Oh yeah, Tom

48:04

Selleck. Oh my God. Well, like, Elliot Gould. Elliot

48:06

Gould.

48:07

I think legend, like Hollywood royalty. So

48:09

Hollywood royalty do not live in New York. Then of

48:12

course Brad Pitt was married to Jennifer Aniston at the

48:14

time. Were they married at the time? I think they were, yeah.

48:16

So she probably just had to ask him

48:18

over for breakfast.

48:21

It's time to credit the clips we've played

48:23

throughout this podcast. Killing Eve series one

48:26

is written by Phoebe Wallerbridge based on

48:28

the Villanelle novels by Luke Jennings with writing

48:30

from George Kay. The opening clip

48:32

stars Kenny, Sean Delaney, Elena,

48:35

Kirby Howell Baptiste, Eve, Sandra

48:37

O and Carolyn, Fiona Shaw. It's

48:40

from episode 1 entitled Nice Face.

48:43

The clip with Eve and Nico Owen McDonald

48:45

in bed is also episode 1 and

48:47

directed by Harry Bradbeer. Bill,

48:50

David Haig and

48:51

Eve chatting about his sexuality

48:53

is episode 3 entitled Don't

48:56

I Know You, directed by John East. The beginning

48:58

of that episode is our favourite scene where Eve describes

49:00

Villanelle in the E-Fit Room.

49:02

The clip with Eve and Nico having an argument is

49:04

episode 6, entitled Take Me To The Hotel,

49:07

directed by Damon Thomas. Eve pushing

49:09

on the bus stop glass, comes in at 13 minutes

49:12

if you want to see what we were talking about, is episode 5,

49:15

entitled I Have A Thing About Bathrooms,

49:17

which was directed by John East. Killing

49:20

Eve is from Sid Gentle Films, Endeavor content

49:22

and BBC America, all available on the

49:25

BBC iPlayer, and thank you to

49:27

the BBC for the clips.

49:28

Glad you could make it.

49:29

See you next week.