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0:31

Some for this. Oh,

0:35

Russ. You

0:39

get me so hot, I want your lips

0:41

on me now.

0:43

Look. All

0:48

right, now you say something. I, uh, I

0:50

really don't think so. Come on. You

0:53

like this woman, right? Yeah. You want to see

0:55

her again, right? Well, if you can't talk dirty

0:57

to

0:57

me, how are you gonna talk dirty to her? Now

1:00

tell me you want to caress my butt.

1:06

["A is TV's BBS." And

1:09

I'm Sasha Bates. And you know the deal. This

1:11

is the podcast where we put our favorite TV characters that

1:14

we find fascinating, mysterious, into

1:16

therapy. Sasha, tell

1:18

us about that clip at the top.

1:20

That was Ross and Jerry from

1:22

Friends. And we're gonna be moving not one,

1:24

but two of them but two of them from

1:26

their couch at Central Perk to my

1:28

therapist's couch. And those two

1:31

are the siblings, Ross and Monica.

1:32

I think you've picked the right two people, Sash. The

1:35

reason that we're doing two of them is that Ross

1:37

and Monica are so intertwined

1:39

as siblings. And I think it's really interesting to look

1:41

at that sibling relationship and how different

1:44

and also how similar siblings can be and

1:46

how much parental influence affects

1:49

them.

1:49

So what I would say to you guys,

1:51

listeners this week, Get yourself

1:54

a ridiculously large mug

1:56

with a weirdly small amount of coffee

1:59

in it. back

2:00

and relax as we explore

2:02

why moving furniture, green

2:04

ottomans in particular by the way, can spark

2:06

self realisation and why winning

2:08

a first ball can

2:10

mean everything. As ever

2:12

there's probably going to be some free language, I mean

2:14

who knows and there's going to be plot reveals so

2:16

prepare yourself and welcome to Shrink

2:18

the Box.

2:25

Alright, it's been a long, long time,

2:27

so for those of you who haven't watched Season

2:30

One of Friends, or can't even remember that far back,

2:32

previously on Friends we

2:35

were introduced to the six

2:37

main characters, Chandler Bing, Phoebe

2:39

Buffet, Monica Geller, Ross

2:42

Geller, Rachel Green and Joey

2:44

Tribbiani. How you're doing?

2:47

who left her fiancé at the altar on her wedding day,

2:49

has come to New York and ends

2:51

up living with Monica, basically. Phoebe's just

2:54

moved out. We learn that Ross

2:56

has had a big crush on Rachel since they were at school

2:58

together, and then you get this will-they-won't-they

3:01

thing kind of throughout. Ross's

3:04

ex-wife Carol is pregnant with his baby,

3:06

but she's also just come out as

3:08

a lesbian when we first meet Ross and

3:10

has left him. The episodic

3:13

nature of the shows sees characters

3:15

having multiple dates,

3:17

loads of which go wrong, quite badly

3:20

wrong. They're all trying to be successful with their

3:22

careers as well, which is also

3:24

hit and miss. And they spend a lot of time

3:26

sitting around in the infamous Central

3:28

Perk

3:29

coffee shop.

3:30

So that's your sort of setup, but I'm

3:32

guessing you all know it, and it's such a universal

3:35

show. And I guess we probably

3:37

all think we know everything there is to know about

3:39

Monica and Ross Geller, but

3:42

Sash, bring us up to speed.

3:44

Okay, well I think that Monica's

3:46

about 26, Ross is about 28. Their

3:49

parents are Jack and Judy Geller. They

3:51

were raised on Long Island in New York. Monica

3:54

wants to be a chef. Ross is

3:56

a professor of paleontology and

3:59

he lives alone. in an apartment with

4:01

his pet monkey Marcel. Monica

4:03

lives with Rachel in that huge

4:06

lovely apartment that everyone congregates in. Amazing.

4:09

They're both kind, warm, loving

4:11

people, very capable of good relationships

4:14

with their friends and with each other. But

4:16

Monica does tend to be rather underestimated

4:19

and that means that she has some control

4:21

issues which is gonna be really interesting to look

4:23

at. Ross is such a sort

4:25

of sentimental, soppy, romantic

4:27

kind. He really just wants to love

4:30

and be loved, to the extent

4:32

that when he's not married, all he wants

4:34

to do is be married, but he's no longer with

4:36

Carol. He gets a monkey, he gets Marcel

4:38

the monkey, such as his

4:40

sort of need to have someone

4:43

to love.

4:43

All right, well, let's have a listen

4:46

to a clip that definitely was recorded

4:48

in New York and not Los Angeles. This doesn't

4:51

smell like mom's.

4:54

No, it doesn't, does it? But

4:56

you wanted Lumps Ross? Well, here you go, buddy,

4:58

you got one. Oh,

5:02

God, this is great. The plane is gone,

5:04

so I guess I'm stuck here with you guys.

5:07

Hey, we all had better plans, okay? This

5:09

was nobody's first choice. Oh,

5:11

really? So why was I busting

5:13

my ass to make this delicious Thanksgiving dinner?

5:16

You brought

5:17

up deliciousness. It's great. You're

5:19

a girl. You're a girl. You're a girl. Why

5:21

are you stopping? You're a girl. Stop it, stop

5:23

it. Now this feels like Thanksgiving. You've

5:28

got to have a Saki Chandler comment at the end

5:30

of the clip like that. That was from the one

5:32

where Underdog gets away from

5:34

season one, episode nine, Friends starring

5:36

David Schwimmer as Ross, Jennifer Aniston,

5:39

Rachel, Courtney Cox as Monica, Lisa

5:41

Kudrow as Phoebe, Matt LeBlanc, Joey,

5:44

and Matthew Perry as Chandler, as created by

5:46

David Crane and Marta Kaufman, written

5:48

by Jeff Greenstein, Jeff Strauss,

5:51

and Ira Ungerleider,

5:53

directed by James Burrows. We'll give you the

5:55

full credits for the rest of the clips used at

5:57

the end of this podcast. Okay, so sash

5:59

for

6:00

time ever. We've got a sibling

6:02

pairing, but you're almost like a marriage counsellor now.

6:04

You've got two people, you've got a man and a woman waiting

6:07

in the office to be seen. What are

6:10

the first issues you notice in

6:12

your introductions to Ross and Monica?

6:15

Well, I think what's really interesting is that

6:17

at one point in the show, Monica says,

6:20

he's the prince. There was some big ceremony before

6:22

I was born. And I think that sort of sums it

6:24

up that it really feels like he's the anointed

6:27

one, he's the Golden Boy and he can do no wrong.

6:29

So he is clever, he's capable,

6:31

he's the success story, the parents

6:34

definitely favour him. And he

6:37

suffers from the weight of that. People always think

6:39

that, oh, it's the one that is sort of underestimated

6:42

as Monica is, that

6:44

has all the problems. But Ross

6:46

can't really let them down. He

6:49

has to keep up this sort of Golden Boy pretense.

6:51

He gets his whole identity from being

6:54

smart, from being successful. So it's

6:56

really hard for him to be otherwise, which makes him a

6:58

bit nerdy, leads him to brag

7:01

occasionally, leads him to sort of let people know

7:03

that he's clever. And sometimes

7:05

it even leads him to lie, like about

7:08

Carol leaving him for another woman and being pregnant.

7:11

And so yeah, he's

7:13

overloaded in one direction

7:15

in the sense that he wants to be seen

7:17

as perfect, but very insecure in others,

7:20

mainly around romance. Yeah and

7:22

he's like quick to sort

7:24

of just let uh

7:27

you know any problem just weigh

7:29

on him like really heavy. So often

7:32

when he walks into a scene he looks

7:34

like a sort of live-action eel doesn't

7:37

he? He does. He does everything

7:39

about him is just drooping. Yeah. His

7:41

eyebrows. He's very maudlin. Yeah he's very very maudlin

7:44

his face makes his face look like twice

7:46

as long somehow. And what about Monica?

7:49

Yeah well she has the opposite problem

7:51

just as he sort of suffers from not being

7:53

allowed to fail. She's in a way not allowed

7:56

to succeed because she's never going to be

7:58

as good as him in... parents'

8:00

eyes. So she feels criticised,

8:03

she feels infantilised, and you see

8:06

her way of coping with that is to be really

8:08

over-controlling. She's also a bit

8:10

naive, she gets played quite easily.

8:13

There's a lot of men that take advantage of her,

8:16

I think because of that she has fewer expectations of

8:18

herself.

8:18

Yeah, and she's like kind

8:20

of obsessively clean,

8:23

isn't she, as I recall? Yeah, she's

8:25

not hair out of place, she's very neat, the flat

8:27

is perfect, she cooks food perfect she

8:30

won't allow anything not to be just

8:33

right. So she needs to be perfect in her way

8:35

and Ross needs to be perfect in his way. His

8:37

is academically, hers is fire. Actually,

8:40

it's sort of the feminine attributes. She

8:42

needs to look feminine. She needs to

8:44

be good at the homemaking skills. And

8:46

I think that in a way mirrors a lot of what the

8:49

stereotypical gender roles

8:51

have been as well. Successful man,

8:54

underestimated woman. Yeah, that's

8:55

interesting. And her two best

8:58

friends are kind of, I

9:01

think she sees them as a bit chaotic in different

9:03

ways. Rachel is a bit untidy,

9:06

isn't she? And Phoebe is obviously

9:09

Phoebe. Yeah. So I think they

9:12

trigger her a little bit. They sort of stress her out

9:14

a little bit.

9:15

I think they really do. I think she really suffers from

9:18

their messiness because she can't allow

9:20

that. But I think also that's why she's attracted to

9:22

them. And why else is attracted to them? because

9:25

in a way they're the alter egos. Yeah,

9:27

they bring about balance. Yeah, they're allowed

9:29

to be all the things that Ross and Monica don't

9:31

allow themselves to be.

9:32

We think of Friends in

9:34

a sort of historical sense. This is the

9:37

height of the 90s culture that

9:39

we're watching Friends in. So we

9:42

can sort of accept that these characters feed

9:44

off of

9:47

the era that they're in. So if they're

9:49

in their mid to late 20s, they

9:52

would have been young adults in the 80s. So

9:54

they would have influences from

9:56

those two decades. right? So you

9:59

may, may work be right in that there's some slightly

10:02

outdated expectations.

10:04

Yeah, I think so. And

10:06

I think women spent a long time trying

10:08

to get to a position of

10:10

equality. And they went through a slightly

10:13

odd stage where equality seemed to be, oh,

10:15

we'll just do what the men do. But, you

10:17

know, of course, that's right.

10:19

But actually, any kind of polarisation

10:22

is not helpful for anyone. I mean, the patriarchy

10:24

is just as hard on men as it is on women.

10:26

Any kind, any system

10:29

that says you can only be one thing

10:31

is going to be bad, whether that's your family system and

10:33

your parents saying

10:34

you have to be this because your brother's that,

10:37

or a society that says you have to be this because

10:39

this is what we expect of men and this is what we expect

10:41

of women. It doesn't help anyone because men can't

10:44

ever be anything. They can't show vulnerability.

10:46

They can't show emotion. They can't not

10:48

succeed. And we also have a very warped

10:51

version of what success looks like. I mean, so

10:53

often success looks like money

10:55

and power and actually that's not success.

10:58

Yeah, sure. You're going to want

11:00

to be different from your sibling in some way.

11:03

Especially if you come second or third,

11:05

you've got to find an identity. You can't just be

11:07

like older sibling Mark

11:09

II. Whether you're a boy or a girl,

11:12

you're going to want to establish your own

11:15

independence. So I'm

11:17

interested by the similarities and the

11:19

differences between Ross and

11:22

Monica. Yeah,

11:22

there are definitely similarities

11:25

as well. I mean, they both have this need

11:27

to be perfect, Ross academically

11:29

and in his career and Monica in

11:32

her neatness and her control, because

11:34

they have learned that it's not okay

11:37

to fail. And it makes them very

11:39

competitive. And I mean, there's so many examples,

11:41

particularly with Monica's competitiveness, when

11:44

they play football and she, you can

11:46

just see this like vindictive like rage

11:48

in her that she has to be

11:50

the boys. she has to show that

11:52

she's as good as them.

11:53

Yes! And that

11:56

could be a shutdown. Shut out!

12:00

Yeah. Where are you

12:02

guys going? Come on, one more game! Oh,

12:04

it's 2.30 in the morning. Yeah. Get

12:07

out! You guys are always

12:09

hanging out in my apartment? Come

12:12

on, I'll use my left hand, huh? Come

12:15

on, whizzies. So

12:17

if the parents have only got so much praise to

12:19

give, so much attention to give, then

12:23

the children are going to have to be different to

12:25

get different sorts of attention. And that

12:27

can lead to rivalry and can lead to that diversification.

12:30

I suppose the ultimate nightmare would

12:32

be if they both wanted to be paleontologists,

12:35

or they both wanted to be chefs. I've

12:37

seen that within siblings and that can be

12:40

really complicated. Yeah,

12:40

they don't always just go in

12:43

polar opposites. Sometimes they do become rivalrous

12:45

in the same field. Actually that can

12:47

also spur each other on to greater levels of

12:49

success. Is it the Brownlee brothers, those triathletes

12:52

from Yorkshire? And they have

12:54

both chosen to excel in the same

12:57

thing. And actually by pushing and pushing

12:59

each other, they're normally, you know, gold

13:01

and silver medalists from what I can see.

13:03

But then even that's like scary because

13:05

then you sort of have

13:07

to present like, I'm really happy my brother

13:09

got the gold. But if you're a

13:11

real competitor, like those points, like you

13:14

want the gold, regardless of whether it's your brother,

13:16

so you'd be happy that he's got the gold, but you can't be happy

13:18

with silver.

13:19

Yeah. Well, yes. I mean,

13:21

it's the same with Venus and Serena Williams, I guess. There's

13:23

loads of acting dynasties. You think of the Baldwin

13:26

brothers, those are like a million of those.

13:28

And that must be tricky because like Alec is

13:31

like

13:31

really clearly the most quote

13:34

unquote successful. That may not mean

13:36

that he's the happiest. No, no, exactly.

13:39

Maybe the one that we rarely see, Daniel

13:41

Baldwin or Stephen Baldwin is happier

13:44

because they live, they have more of a private

13:46

life. Who knows, do you know what I mean? So that's

13:48

an interesting thing to think about, like

13:51

how we view success and how

13:53

we view

13:54

rivalry. The other thing I wanted to ask you was

13:58

when I think about my kids.

14:00

They're teenagers now. And

14:02

I've tried, and I still try

14:05

my utmost to treat them with as

14:08

much equality as I can muster. But

14:10

they are so different to

14:12

each other. And then I start to get in this

14:14

tizzy of like, is it

14:16

a chicken and egg scenario? Like, did

14:18

I create that? Or

14:20

did they create it as infants

14:23

and work out? Like, well, I'm not being like her. I'm

14:25

gonna do the opposite thing. And

14:27

then I've reacted to that and

14:30

treated them different. I just don't know.

14:31

So many different factors feed in.

14:33

And temperament is absolutely one

14:36

of those factors. Gender

14:38

as well, I know that's not the case with your girls. Just

14:40

where they come in the birth order.

14:43

I mean, people always say, oh yeah, but we

14:45

had the same parents. So how come I like

14:47

this and they're like that? But the truth is nobody

14:50

has the same parents because in Wilson

14:53

Monica's case, Monica's parents

14:56

are two years older. They have had two

14:58

years more of being together. Their

15:00

relationship may have got better or worse in

15:02

that time. They may have earned more money or

15:04

lost money. They may have had all sorts

15:06

of, I don't know, losses or griefs

15:09

that have happened to them in that time. When

15:11

they had Ross, they were first-time parents. In

15:13

fact, there's a really funny line where Monica

15:15

says to Ross, Boy, I know they say that you

15:18

can't change your parents.

15:20

Boy, if you could, I'd want yours.

15:24

So she actually says they are not the

15:26

same parents. Your

15:26

version, yeah. That's kind of, that's a

15:28

deep thing to say. I think there's

15:30

this unsolvable mystery

15:33

in my younger daughter's head about the three

15:35

years that she didn't exist and her

15:37

older sister did.

15:38

They will never know what it's like to not have

15:40

an elder sibling who they

15:43

look up to or dislike or whatever,

15:46

but they're always there. And the elder one,

15:48

in contrast, they get that

15:50

two years or three years of being

15:52

the sole focus and then they have to go

15:55

through the loss and the grief of suddenly then

15:57

not always the golden boy not always

15:59

the prince

16:00

Temperament is in there as well. Of course,

16:02

you can't deny that everybody comes in with their

16:04

own personality, but it's how all

16:06

those different things interact. And I

16:08

think Ross, I was saying before about how he's

16:11

so, can't bear to not have someone to love that he gets

16:13

that flippin' monkey. You could say that

16:15

Ross went through that huge loss of

16:18

being the most loved when Monica

16:20

was born, and in a way, he's trying to get back

16:22

that feeling of being the special one. So

16:25

when he lost Carol, once again, he's

16:28

lost to another woman. So

16:30

he might be really triggered

16:32

by having gone through another loss that

16:34

reflects back, re-triggers his

16:37

feelings of being lost when Monica was born,

16:39

so he gets the monkey. And

16:40

there must be an even deeper level

16:43

with finding out that Carol

16:45

is pregnant. Yeah. And that,

16:48

you know, sure, you'd like to think he could be

16:50

a father to that child, but the feeling

16:53

of like, oh, here's

16:55

this family starting again

16:57

without me. Yeah. Let's talk a little

16:59

bit about the insecurities that sort

17:02

of live within or underneath the sibling

17:04

relationship that the Gellers have.

17:07

How do they defend themselves against

17:10

these insecurities that pop up?

17:12

Yeah, well, I think, well, Sluksa Monica

17:15

and sees the criticism that she get,

17:17

how they don't take her seriously. And

17:20

I think he's really scared that that could be him.

17:22

He doesn't want to

17:23

look at his parents and see disappointment. So

17:26

he has to defend against that by doubling

17:28

down on the, I am going to be perfect,

17:30

I'm going to be really, really clever.

17:33

And his defense is called intellectualism. It is

17:35

literally what he says on the tin. He tries

17:37

to be intellectual. He tries to never get anything

17:40

wrong. And that is his defense system.

17:43

He can be that, but he can't only

17:45

be that. None of us can only be one thing.

17:48

Because he spent so much time defending against

17:50

the anxieties inside and trying to be

17:52

clever, trying to be

17:53

successful in his career. It means

17:55

that he's not that well developed socially,

17:58

which is why he's a bit awkward.

18:00

he sort of looks a bit hang dog sometimes

18:02

when he kind of gets things wrong. I watched

18:04

the pilot before this

18:06

record, I'd watched a bunch of other episodes, but

18:08

I was quite interested to know how they introduced

18:10

everyone, you know, for the first time. And

18:12

it's very telling. Everyone's in the

18:15

coffee shop apart from Ross. And

18:18

I think Rachel comes last actually in her

18:20

breakdown. And then Ross comes in

18:23

with an umbrella and he says hi. and

18:26

Chandler says, every time this

18:28

guy opens his mouth, I want to kill myself. That's

18:30

the introduction to Ross.

18:32

You can't not

18:35

love him really, because he is very, they're both

18:37

really, really lovable.

18:40

And I mean, Monica, I think we should talk about this

18:43

in more detail later, but Monica's defense

18:45

against the constant criticism that she

18:47

gets is to be perfect

18:49

in terms of neatness and control.

18:53

She just can't really allow herself

18:55

to not have everything exactly

18:58

how she wants it. So they're both

19:00

defending in different ways, but it's both a sort of a

19:02

version of perfection. But

19:05

actually, the funny thing is, and why

19:07

the show works well, is the friends don't need them

19:09

to be those things. The friends prefer them

19:11

when they're not being those things. They want to gently...

19:14

Yeah, they want to like tease them for these

19:16

defenses. They want to sort sort of tease out the other

19:19

sides. So that's why

19:21

the friends are so important really.

19:23

Well, I wanna get deeper into like why

19:25

Monica can't be silly. I think that's

19:27

an interesting thing. And I

19:29

totally, I think when I was young watching

19:32

friends, I don't think I really

19:35

clocked on how like critical her

19:37

mum was of her as well and how problematic

19:39

that can be. So I think we should

19:41

dig into that too. But first we're gonna

19:43

take a break and then we'll get into some control

19:46

issues and parents.

19:48

So here come the ads, unless you're a subscriber

19:51

to the Take channel, Of course, in which case

19:53

we'll be back faster than Marcel can hump a chair.

19:55

Aren't

20:00

we? Yes, we are. They're still

20:02

just friends, right?

20:13

So, you open Google Chrome on your phone,

20:16

you're hunting for a super rare first edition vinyl of

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22:52

Okay, we are back. It's time for the biggie. Sash,

22:55

we need to talk about Monica's

22:58

need for control.

22:59

Yeah, I mean, poor Monica. She's so criticized

23:02

by her mum. And we first

23:04

see her tidying the flat when they're expecting

23:07

a visit from the parents. And she actually says,

23:09

I just don't want to give them any more ammunition than

23:11

they already have. So it's to ward off

23:13

criticism. And a

23:16

lot of slightly compulsive behavior

23:18

can start off as a very rational reason

23:20

as to why you want to do something, but

23:22

then it can sort of escalate. And it's a broad

23:25

spectrum from just wanting to be a bit

23:27

tidy to at the other end,

23:29

a really serious disorder, OCD.

23:31

And actually something that upsets me is when people say

23:33

things like, oh, she's a bit OCD because

23:36

OCD is a proper disorder, it's an illness

23:38

and being a little bit controlling is not

23:41

the same. I mean, if you break down OCD,

23:43

it's obsessive-compulsive disorder. Obsessive

23:46

means your thoughts when you have persistent,

23:49

intrusive, unwelcome, unstoppable

23:51

thoughts that go round and round. The compulsive

23:54

bit is compulsions and those are the

23:56

behaviours. that is the constant

23:59

neatening

23:59

and...

24:00

and tidying or hand washing

24:02

is the famous one. They're repetitious,

24:04

they're purposeful, they're often done as part of a routine

24:07

or a ritual, they're structured. Again,

24:09

they're a defence against anxiety

24:11

that comes up if I don't do these compulsions.

24:15

So when obsessive thoughts and compulsive

24:17

behaviours intertwine, then

24:19

it might become a disorder, and that's

24:21

the D part of OCD. So you

24:24

can have obsessive thoughts, you can have compulsive

24:26

behaviours, but OCD

24:28

as a disorder is a serious

24:30

illness. Monica has a lot

24:32

of compulsions. I don't think she

24:34

has got OCD. It's a disorder

24:36

that really disrupts your normal

24:38

functioning. Maybe that might be your mental

24:40

functioning. It might be your actual physical

24:43

functioning.

24:43

It can be really debilitating, right?

24:45

Really debilitating. Or you

24:48

can almost have forms

24:50

of breakdowns and stuff if something is

24:53

messed with in what you see as the

24:55

order.

24:55

Absolutely. Absolutely, which is

24:57

why it's a disorder. It is a serious

24:59

condition. In the UK, 1.2% of

25:02

the population have it, which is about three quarters

25:04

of a million people. But of course, people that

25:06

do live with it, the people that they

25:08

live with are also going to be impacted

25:11

because they live with somebody with this disorder. So

25:13

actually more than three quarters, over a million

25:15

people are going to be affected by

25:18

it. So if we're talking about Monica's compulsions

25:21

and her slightly obsessive thoughts, it's

25:23

how much of it is a problem to you?

25:25

If it is really interfering with your life.

25:28

If it is really impacting your

25:30

behaviour or your thoughts or how you

25:32

go about your day, then maybe you do need

25:34

help. If you don't see it as a problem, then it's

25:36

not a problem. It's sort of how much it affects

25:39

you, how disruptive it is to you

25:42

emotionally or practically.

25:43

Yeah, has your life become unmanageable?

25:46

Yeah, exactly. And

25:49

I think what's really interesting is we sort of see Monica

25:51

go through through that questioning process

25:53

of, is this a problem? I didn't know

25:56

this was a problem, might it be a problem? That

25:58

all plays out in which- real

26:00

time in the show. It's actually

26:02

kind of

26:03

bold in a weird way, because when you think back to

26:05

Friends, you just think of like

26:07

a really kind of quite vanilla, just

26:10

lovely show. It's like a warm hug. My

26:12

kids will watch random episodes and I'll sit down

26:14

and watch them with them. And so, like, oh yeah, I remember

26:16

this. The suggestion that Monica

26:19

has this

26:20

thing that could,

26:22

if, you know, pushed to an extreme,

26:25

become a condition or a disorder that

26:27

makes her life more manageable, is quite a bold Like

26:30

Phoebe's backstory is quite a bold

26:33

move. It's dark. It's quite dark. It's

26:36

kind of admirable that they're able to write

26:38

around those topics and sort

26:40

of be respectful of them. It's impressive

26:43

that they make them funny, obviously.

26:46

It adds a slight edge to friends that I

26:48

think a lot of people, including myself, probably forgot

26:51

was actually there.

26:52

Yeah, no, I agree. We always sort

26:54

of think of it as just this sort of very funny

26:56

show, but there's some serious

26:58

issues that they're looking at. They do it with a very

27:00

light touch. Yeah, absolutely. Which is why

27:02

I think we don't really notice them, but

27:05

they are there.

27:06

Definitely. Actually, speaking

27:09

of which, we mentioned at the top of the show this

27:11

green ottoman incident, right?

27:14

This is where Rachel's just cleaned the flat

27:16

and she's moved this piece of furniture. Monica

27:19

moves it back

27:20

and they all tell her that she's like, she's

27:23

obsessed. So let's just have a listen to this. Okay,

27:26

so I'm responsible. I'm organized,

27:28

but hey, I can be a kook. Whoo-hoo.

27:32

All right, you mad cap gal. Try

27:36

to imagine this. The phone bill arrives,

27:39

but you don't pay it right away. Why

27:42

not? Because you're a kook. Instead,

27:47

you wait until they send you a notice.

27:50

I could do that. Okay, okay.

27:52

Then, uh, you let me

27:54

go grocery shopping, And I buy

27:57

laundry detergent, but it's not

27:59

the one with the...

28:00

Easy, poor spout. Why would

28:02

someone do that? One

28:05

might wonder. Someone's

28:08

left a glass on the coffee table. There's no coaster.

28:10

It's a cold drink. It's a hot day. Little

28:13

beads of condensation are inching their way

28:15

closer and closer to the surface of the wood. Stop

28:18

it! This is so...

28:22

Oh my God. It's true.

28:25

Who am I? Monica, you

28:28

are Mom. I'm

28:31

guessing

28:33

Phoebe's doing the Norman

28:36

Bates. Yeah, the psycho stabbing. The

28:40

next stage of thought naturally

28:42

is,

28:44

is this a bigger problem than I thought and

28:46

can I change it?

28:47

Oh, well, I think this is such a great

28:50

scene because yeah, you see that moment

28:52

where it goes from being an unconscious thing that

28:54

she does to being conscious

28:56

and her friends are the ones that have helped her

28:59

bring it into consciousness. And they've

29:01

done it actually quite kindly because

29:03

she knows they love her and will accept

29:06

her that actually she can hear

29:08

it. She has this moment of

29:10

consciousness. She then has to work out what

29:12

to do with it. Ross helps

29:14

her along thinking about

29:17

what this might mean by saying your mum.

29:19

And so then she has the next stage of thinking, okay,

29:22

this is where this behaviour has come from. She

29:25

doesn't want to be her mum. So she has to think,

29:27

okay, if I don't want to be my mum, I might have

29:29

to do something. But it's a long and painful

29:32

process. I mean, you can see that after

29:34

that bit of the scene,

29:36

she tries to go to bed and wait. She says, oh, you've left your

29:38

shoes behind. I'm wondering, it's like, oh, that's

29:40

fine, that's fine. I don't mind.

29:43

But then you see her lying in bed, tossing

29:45

and turning, thinking, should

29:47

I go and get the shoes? Nobody, if I go and get the shoes, then

29:49

everyone will know I've gone to get the shoes. And then

29:51

she has this mad thought, well, I could go and get the shoes,

29:54

then get up before everybody else wakes up and

29:56

put them back. I mean, and

29:58

it's in that moment.

30:00

she realises the sort of the lunacy

30:02

of it that actually this is beyond

30:04

normal, this is not normal behaviour, this is

30:06

adversely affecting my sleep, my

30:08

thoughts, my functioning. And

30:11

she actually says out loud, oh, I need help.

30:13

And she gets that help from the friends really

30:16

by being unconditionally loved.

30:18

Yeah, and that's kind of like, that's the

30:21

sort of heart of the show, right? As cheesy

30:23

as it is there's always that group

30:25

hug available, always. We

30:28

know about this criticism

30:31

that she feels from her mom. She's fearful of

30:33

it, but we haven't actually heard any

30:36

examples of her mom yet. So I think

30:38

it's worth playing this clip. This is Monica's

30:40

grandma's funeral, and this is

30:42

a moment with her and her mom that

30:45

tells us quite a lot.

30:46

Do you know what it's like to grow up

30:49

with someone who is critical of every

30:52

single thing

30:53

you say. I can imagine.

30:57

I'm telling

30:59

you, it's a wonder your mother

31:01

turned out to be the positive life-affirming

31:04

person she is. That

31:07

is a wonder. So,

31:10

tell me

31:11

something, Mom. If

31:15

you had to do it all over again, I mean, if she

31:17

was here right now, Right now. Would

31:20

you tell her? Tell

31:22

her what? How

31:24

she don't be crazy. Picking on

31:27

every little detail like your

31:29

hair, for example. I'm

31:33

not sure I know what you're

31:35

getting at.

31:37

Do you think things would have been better if you just

31:39

told her the truth? No.

31:46

So clearly here, we're

31:49

hearing the mum is repeating

31:51

behaviour that she experienced.

31:54

We can tell, like Monica is just

31:57

slightly kind of putting these little

31:59

digs in there.

32:00

bits of sarcasm, like, can you not

32:02

see these patterns repeating? And you

32:04

know, we teased at the top that maybe it's inevitable

32:06

we all become our parents. Who knows?

32:09

I mean, what do you think?

32:09

Yeah, well, I think that shows the

32:12

difference between whether you do want to

32:14

allow the unconscious to become

32:16

conscious, whether you do want to shine a light

32:19

on the behaviour, whether you do want to change. Her

32:21

mum is a really good example of somebody who

32:23

doesn't want to look at it. She

32:26

goes on to say after that, she said, no, I think

32:28

it's nicer when everybody just gets along.

32:30

So that's what she's decided to do.

32:32

Just keep the lid on it, lock it down, don't

32:35

let's look at this stuff. And

32:37

that saves her from her own anxieties.

32:40

That's her defense. But the problem

32:42

is, is that she's then just passing on the exact

32:44

same thing. I mean, it's like the Larkin

32:46

poem, we all know the first bit about they fuck you up, your

32:49

mum and dad. But then it goes on to say, Man

32:51

hands on misery to man.

32:53

It deepens like a coastal shelf.

32:55

Exactly. And it is that,

32:57

it's that coastal shelf that like every generation

33:00

wears it down a little bit until eventually

33:02

it will collapse. In Monica's case,

33:04

she is saying, no, I don't want

33:06

to just keep handing it on down.

33:08

I don't want to deepen the coastal shelf. I

33:10

want to shore it up. I want to say, I

33:12

could actually not be my mum. I could not

33:15

endlessly criticise. Because if

33:18

she has children, which of course, Chandler

33:20

and she does right at the end of however many series

33:22

it is, she wants her

33:25

children to be

33:25

the sort of children who can sit and watch a

33:27

glass being put down, not on a coaster

33:30

with the beads of sweat and not feel

33:32

too terrified to stick a coaster

33:34

underneath it, because she's loosened up enough

33:36

to not keep passing it on. So

33:39

absolutely people can change, but

33:41

it starts with consciousness,

33:44

it starts with awareness, it starts with recognition,

33:47

and you need to be supported

33:49

in that. And she is supported by Ross

33:51

and by the friends. And actually So another

33:53

really important thing to say because parents do an

33:55

awful lot of good as well. We don't tend

33:57

to focus on them so much because

33:59

that's... not what people come into therapy for. But

34:01

the parents are great as well. They're clearly

34:04

kind and loving and supportive. They've brought

34:06

up great kids who are able to have

34:08

relationships, who are able to love each other and be

34:10

supportive to each other, who are able to have friends

34:12

that they have good relationships with.

34:14

So it's absolutely not about endlessly saying,

34:17

oh, blame the parents, blame the parents. Because we've seen there,

34:19

Judy, she, you can't blame

34:21

her because she doesn't know what she's doing. She's not

34:24

been in a position, Yeah,

34:26

where she did ever feel able to challenge her

34:28

mum or perhaps

34:30

didn't have the same sort of relationship with

34:32

Jack the dad where he could help her

34:35

to change. So you need awareness,

34:37

but you also need support and you need compassion

34:39

and you need kindness and you need love. So

34:42

they haven't done a bad job. They've done a great job

34:44

in many ways. But in this particular

34:46

area, they have fallen short

34:49

because they were also victims

34:51

themselves.

34:51

And sometimes an external trigger

34:54

that you maybe didn't expect could be a

34:56

thing that pushes you into

34:59

seeking change or trying something different.

35:02

There's a mad episode where Monica's

35:04

credit card gets stolen and

35:06

it turns out someone's impersonating her.

35:09

The one with the fake Monica. The one with the

35:11

fake Monica, thank you very much. And

35:13

instead of like, you know, getting actually furious

35:16

and like, you know, with the person

35:18

and with the police or whatever

35:20

with the bank. What she's

35:22

furious about is herself

35:25

because she sees what this other person is buying.

35:28

And it's all like way more interesting stuff than

35:31

she would buy. And she starts thinking, oh

35:33

my God, I wanna be that Monica Geller.

35:35

And it's kind of,

35:37

what do you call it? It's like an existential

35:39

moment. It's the vision

35:42

of what she could be. And I think

35:44

she says, well, she's living my life better than I am.

35:46

And she doesn't even have to have my mother. I

35:49

mean, it's really funny. She goes tap dancing.

35:51

She tries to make friends with this woman. They get drunk

35:53

in the middle of the afternoon. They gate crash parties.

35:56

And she gets to live a version that she could

35:58

never have. But... then fake Monica

36:00

gets arrested and you kind of see

36:03

that there is a cost. And also

36:05

you see how far the pendulum swings

36:08

because you don't have to

36:10

either be completely controlled, neurotic,

36:13

buttoned up, Monica, or like crazy

36:15

drunk in the daytime, messy. Exactly,

36:17

reckless, illegal

36:19

fake Monica. The pendulum doesn't need to

36:21

swing quite so far from one side

36:23

to the other. There is a version in the middle

36:26

where she can allow a little bit of silliness, a

36:28

little bit of kookiness, a little bit of recklessness.

36:30

But there is always that tension between who we want

36:33

to be and the price of change,

36:35

because the price of change means that her mum might criticize

36:37

her more. She might have to tolerate

36:40

how hard it is to watch the beads of sweat

36:43

drop down onto her table with no coaster.

36:45

She will have to learn to tolerate the uncomfortableness.

36:47

But that doesn't

36:49

mean she has to go out and gate crash parties.

36:51

And it ends with her visiting the fake Monica

36:53

in prison. Yeah, sweet. Of

36:56

all the things that she could say, which

36:58

is well within her rights to say, justifiably

37:00

so, what she chooses to say is thank you.

37:02

Yeah, she's been given a little glimpse of

37:04

this is what I could do if I could unbutton. I

37:06

think it's that little bit right at the end of the show, the

37:08

little coder, and she goes back to the

37:10

tap class on her own and somebody says,

37:13

you're getting it all wrong. And she says, but

37:15

at least I'm doing it. It's so

37:18

sweet. She's finally embracing

37:20

the idea that you can do something without

37:22

being perfect at it. The important thing

37:24

is she is doing it. She's not letting

37:26

the fear stop her. So, fate

37:28

monikers hugely important on that journey

37:31

to am I going to become the neurotic, get

37:33

up and move my shoes and then move them back

37:35

again person? Or can I say it's okay

37:38

to not be perfect? I won't be criticized. I

37:40

might even enjoy it a bit.

37:41

And again, in a way it was a friend,

37:43

not one of our central protagonist

37:46

friends, but it was a friend that

37:48

helped to see this. Even

37:51

though it may have been through slightly nefarious means.

37:54

But this is a constant theme from episode

37:57

one to episode one million and one. I

37:59

haven't meant anything. made

38:00

that you can

38:02

get through a lot, just like the Beatles

38:04

said, with a little help from

38:08

your friends. You had some stats

38:10

about loneliness, right? They really shocked me.

38:12

There is an organisation called, I think

38:14

it's called the Campaign to End Loneliness and they've done

38:16

so much research and they have realised

38:18

that it's not only sort of sad and horrible feeling

38:20

lonely, but it's really bad for your health. It

38:22

increases your risk of being ill by 27%,

38:26

it's as bad as smoking 15 cigarettes

38:28

a day. It's worse than...

38:30

That's the one that is... I just thought that

38:32

was nice.

38:32

It's worse than obesity, increases

38:35

your risk of heart attack, stroke, and

38:37

it's a pandemic. I mean, you know, we've all lived through

38:39

a pandemic, which exacerbated ironically

38:41

the pandemic of loneliness that

38:43

people were already starting to identify even

38:45

before. What Friends the Show does

38:48

is it shows you why friends, the actual

38:50

people are so important because they

38:52

help us to see our blind spots. Her

38:54

mum didn't want to see the blind spot about what the criticism

38:57

meant. Her friends do show her

38:59

what her blind spots are. They've kind

39:01

of got this notion Ross feels he needs to be exceptional

39:05

and if he isn't he'll be hopeless like Monica. And

39:07

the friends show that there are all sorts of other ways

39:10

of being. That Monica can be

39:12

messy, that Ross can be awkward and they will

39:14

still be accepted and loved and they have become

39:16

really strong and important attachment figures.

39:19

One of the measures of how secure

39:21

your attachment is, is who

39:23

you run to when you're distressed. When

39:25

Ross and Monica go to the hospital because their nan is

39:27

about to die, and the mum again criticises

39:30

Monica's hair, Monica immediately

39:32

rushes

39:32

to Ross for a hug. He's her attachment

39:35

figure, and they all are in a way,

39:37

being able to reach out for social connection.

39:40

That is the thing that's going to stop you going

39:43

into addictions, going into a sort of fight-flight

39:46

mode, And it's going to stop you tipping over

39:48

into needing, you know, artificial means

39:50

or unhealthy means to calm that

39:53

sense of distress. They are

39:55

your first line of defense. to a person,

39:57

go to somebody that you trust, have a

39:59

hug, physical.

40:00

context actually really important. Wanted

40:02

physical content. Yeah, friendship. It's

40:04

pretty special. All right, fascinating

40:06

stuff. Don't stop sending your character suggestions

40:09

because we're just going to keep piling them up and

40:11

working out who we want to do

40:13

next, who excites us the most, but also your thoughts,

40:15

just what you reckon. You know, if you want us to get deeper

40:17

into some element, if there's some psychoanalysis

40:22

that you think, oh, I'd love to hear a bit more about

40:24

this thing, let us know and you can

40:26

get in touch so easily shrink the box

40:29

at somethingelsewithouttheg.com.

40:32

All right, Sash, you wanna hear a couple of emails? Ooh,

40:34

please.

40:34

And this is, you know, this is quickly

40:37

becoming one of my favorite moments in the show to know

40:39

that there's people who are

40:40

actually listening and enjoying.

40:43

Connecting, that's what we've just been talking

40:45

about. Yeah, brilliant. And we seem to get

40:47

quite a lot of people in

40:50

or around your profession. Yeah. What

40:52

if there's ever gonna be any cocky actors?

40:55

Ben's hutch. But

40:58

this is another Ben at least. He's from Huddersfield

41:00

and he says, hi, the podcast

41:02

is very good. Good start, Ben. Like

41:05

that one. That's why it jumped out at me.

41:07

It gives a real insight into characters, motivations

41:09

and patterns of behavior.

41:10

Few characters I'd love to see on the couch. Kevin

41:13

Garvey from the Leftovers. It's

41:15

an American supernatural drama. What

41:18

happens to humanity if their rapture actually

41:20

happens. Yeah, I've heard about that one, but not

41:22

watched it, Kev, but I will check it. Kevin says

41:24

his character evolution and the events

41:26

from season one where he's processing what's happened

41:29

and the effects it's had on him and the people

41:31

close to him is what makes the show special.

41:34

It's through to the last season where it really

41:36

pushes him close to the edge of what he can believe

41:38

in and what he can trust.

41:40

That does sound, that

41:42

sounds like a possible go-okay. Well, I'm

41:45

going to watch it first. He also

41:47

suggests Aunt Lydia from The Handmaid's Tale. He

41:50

says, Anne Dowd put so much

41:52

meat onto the bones of the character. Margaret

41:54

Atwood had already created a very interesting, well-rounded

41:56

person. idea that Season 1 is

41:59

the first book. to then take this character

42:01

into further evolution and make it interesting is

42:03

superb. Great shouts, both

42:05

of those, so thanks Ben.

42:08

And an Australian listener here,

42:10

Rachel, says,

42:11

I'd love to have Jessica Jones on

42:13

the couch. I'm not usually a Marvel fan,

42:15

but I loved this show, particularly the first season. Jessica

42:18

Jones is such a multifaceted superhero

42:20

with a fractured childhood and trauma. As

42:23

an adult, she's developed an underlying sadness

42:25

that seeps through her and has made it difficult

42:27

for her to form close relationships. The

42:29

supporting characters are also equally well-drawn,

42:32

especially David Tennants. So,

42:34

cheers, says Rachel from Sydney.

42:37

Yeah, Jessica Jones, I've not

42:39

done, but there's loads of Marvel I haven't

42:41

done. I'm sure I'll get round to it at one point. I

42:43

tend to just ask my kids, is this a good one? Is

42:45

it a good one? Is it worth watching? Yes, okay.

42:47

They told me, WandaVision, yes. You know,

42:50

I knew there'd be a benefit to having kids.

42:52

You finally found it. So,

42:54

who are we going to have next time? I'm licking

42:56

my lips. I still don't wonder who it's

42:58

going to be. Well, I felt spoiled for choice.

43:00

I could do any of the main characters from

43:02

this jupendously good drama. Promising.

43:05

It's been suggested by many people.

43:07

So let's take a listen.

43:09

Kids, can you give me two minutes? I

43:12

changed my mind. I'm staying on. I just

43:14

had it, Far. You fucked me. I

43:18

know that you've read a lot of books about business

43:21

management.

43:23

But sometimes it

43:25

is a big dick competition.

43:28

But I'm concerned you might be soft.

43:32

Dan, come on. The world is changing. Oh,

43:34

yeah, yeah, everything changes.

43:38

He's gonna blow the firm's credibility. It's

43:40

not what's in it for me, but what

43:42

is in it for me? I've

43:44

won the top job. I'm not losing

43:46

the steel. It's my fucking company.

43:50

You make your own reality, and once you've done it,

43:53

Everyone's of the opinion is also

43:55

obvious. You

43:58

know what? Fuck

44:00

them. Oh my God.

44:04

It's succession. And

44:06

that might probably my favorite theme tune

44:08

of almost any TV show. I love

44:11

it. So good. So wait, who are

44:13

we going to do? Well, I mean, they're all

44:15

so fabulously chilling as you

44:17

kind of got a sense in that clip. But I thought

44:20

we could start with Shiv, daughter

44:22

of media magnet Logan Roy,

44:25

who again, we had in the

44:27

clip, He may or may not be retiring and

44:29

all his kids are vying

44:32

to be the new boss of his waste star,

44:34

Ruyko Conglomerate.

44:35

Yeah. It's a drama that brings

44:38

like ambition, self-interest and

44:40

backstab into a whole other level.

44:44

And apparently the actors were given multiple

44:46

takes, which is unusual with

44:48

serialized TV, in order to give them

44:51

the chance to like, dick around a bit and writers

44:53

are throwing in ideas and alternative

44:55

comic lines. just find the most cutting

44:58

things that you can imagine, Kieran

45:00

Culkin, I mean, an absolute bull

45:02

with that.

45:03

I bet, God, that sounds brilliant.

45:05

But I also heard that they had wealth consultants

45:08

to advise them how to behave like

45:10

the mega rich. Right, yeah. I

45:12

mean, that blew my mind. It's like, apparently you

45:14

don't duck when you get out of a helicopter, they had

45:17

to learn that because they're so- Yeah, I would definitely have

45:19

ducked. Yeah, I would too. But apparently

45:21

if you've done it all your life, you learn not

45:23

to duck. And also they were told that

45:25

they didn't need to wear coats because they go

45:27

straight from mansion to limo.

45:29

So. Of course, your door opens and you're on the threshold.

45:32

Yeah. Why would you need a coat? Yeah. Yeah.

45:34

Well, that's kind of disturbing. Speaking

45:37

of which, my PJ should be on

45:39

the something else landing pad by now. Oh, lovely.

45:41

Can I have a lift? Can we drop by Paris? I

45:44

can do a bit of shopping. Yeah. Get a few dresses,

45:46

but no shawls. You're not gonna need anything

45:48

like that. Cause I'll drop you right at the threshold.

45:50

So actually that's a promise. Perfect. Thank you. I'm

45:53

still saying, see you next week. I think is probably appropriate. So

45:55

see you next Tuesday. Yeah.

45:56

Yeah. Bye

45:58

then. Bye then.

46:05

Okay, it's time to credit Friends Season 1.

46:08

It was created and written by David Crane and

46:10

Marta Kaufmann. Additional writing and story

46:12

editing by Adam Chase, Alexa Young,

46:15

Jeff Astroff, Mike Sikowitz,

46:17

Ira Ungalida, Jeff Greenstein

46:20

and Jeff Strauss. The clip

46:22

at the top where Joey, Matt LeBlanc, is teaching

46:24

Ross, David Schwimmer how to talk dirty

46:27

is episode 15 called

46:29

The One With The Stone Guy, directed by Alan

46:31

Myerson. The clip where Monica, Courtney

46:34

Cox, wants to be football

46:35

champion opposite Joey and Chandler,

46:37

played by Matthew Perry of course, is episode 12,

46:40

The One With The Dozen Lasagnas, directed

46:42

by Paul Lazarus. Monica saying

46:45

she wants to change her parents is episode 2, The One

46:47

With The Sonogram at the end, directed by James Burrows.

46:50

Ross telling Marcel they're off to take a bath

46:53

is episode 10, The One with the Monkey, directed

46:55

by Peter Bonners. Monica

46:58

getting upset when the green ottoman moved, that's

47:00

episode 6, The One with the Butt, directed

47:03

by Arlene Sanford. And finally,

47:05

when Monica's mom talks to her about growing

47:07

up with a critical mother, that's episode 8,

47:10

The One Where Nana Dies Twice, directed

47:12

by James Burrows. Thanks for listening

47:14

guys, and see you next week.

47:16

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