0:00

National Geographic presents What

0:02

I'm asking you to do is dangerous. You

0:04

need to take your time to think it through. No

0:06

I don't. What do I do? We

0:09

can't save everyone. But if I

0:11

don't try, I don't think I'll be able to live

0:13

with myself. What are we supposed to do? Some

0:16

stood by. Anything. You have to. She

0:18

stood up. There has to be a line. Belle Powley

0:21

is Neat Gees.

0:22

There has to be me for this to work. A

0:25

Small Light limited series premieres tonight

0:27

at 9. Stream on Hulu and Disney+. We

0:59

explore why we love to try and figure each other out. And,

1:02

Sash, I want

1:02

to ask you some questions. I've always

1:04

wondered about being a therapist. Like, do

1:07

you ever just fucking hate your clients? Plus,

1:12

the fictional characters you'd like to see on the

1:14

couch, of course. Welcome to Shrink

1:16

the Inbox.

1:18

Let's start with DJ Pele. Very

1:20

cool name. Says, love the podcast and great take on how we can

1:22

review or evaluate popular characters on screen.

1:27

You've probably had tons of mail about these

1:29

guys, but considering the last season

1:32

starts soon, how would you perform a group therapy

1:34

session with the main protagonists of the TV show Succession?

1:38

Hmm. I don't know. I

1:40

don't know. I don't know. I don't

1:42

know. I don't know. I

1:44

don't know. I don't know. Hmm.

1:48

Obviously, you'd need padding, tranquilizers and an armed guard.

1:51

But I thought I'd put the suggestion in anyway. Keep up the amazing

1:53

pod. We did actually

1:57

shive from Succession,

2:00

a few weeks ago, go back and check that out

2:02

if you've not heard it. And in that,

2:04

we did refer to a moment, didn't we, in season one

2:06

where the Roy family have a disastrous

2:09

therapy session. Actually, let's

2:11

take a listen to one of the many clips we didn't

2:13

have time to play in in the show. Okay,

2:15

what I guess I'm asking is, how do you

2:17

feel about what you just said? Look,

2:20

everything I've done in my life,

2:22

I've done for my children. I know I've made mistakes.

2:25

You can't just use the one sentence. Well, that's how

2:27

I feel, Joanne. I can make this

2:29

shit up if you like. Sounds like your

2:31

AR. Chef. Look,

2:34

I guess where I'm coming

2:36

from is I'm having a hard time diving in because

2:38

honestly, I'm wondering why he brought

2:41

us here in the first place.

2:42

I mean, was it for this photo opportunity? No, no,

2:44

of course not. No, I wouldn't have brought

2:46

you here for a photo in an interview. Sorry, excuse

2:48

me? There's an interview now? Well, I told

2:51

you photo. No, you didn't.

2:54

That's from Succession season one, Al Stellis

2:56

episode seven with Dr. Alan

2:59

Parfit, played by Griffin Dunn, Logan

3:01

Roy, Brian Cox, and Shiv Roy, played

3:03

by Sarah Snook. It was written by Jesse Armstrong,

3:06

Susan Soon, Hee Stanton, and Lucy Preble,

3:08

directed by Miguel Arteta. Sash,

3:10

what do you think? Could you get these guys

3:13

in a room to begin with? Oh God, I wouldn't want to.

3:15

How'd you approach it?

3:15

I would be terrified. Scary.

3:18

Yeah, I mean, it is just like a therapy

3:21

session from hell, isn't it? I mean, that

3:23

poor therapist. I mean, I just

3:25

have to say at the end, they do actually

3:27

break the therapist. He

3:29

dives into the pool. They have a break, he dives

3:31

into the pool, and he comes up with a smashed nose,

3:33

and his front teeth knocked out. So they've literally

3:36

silenced him and broken him. None

3:38

of them are taking it seriously. I mean,

3:41

Logan starts by sort of calling them

3:43

in, they're going, roll up, roll up. But they all know

3:45

it's a complete

3:45

PR stunt from start to finish.

3:48

They are playing against the father.

3:51

I think at one point, Roman says,

3:53

oh, Dad wants to win at therapy. They

3:55

sort of play there. Well, Shiv's the one that stands up to

3:58

him. She says, come on, Dad, you can't just keep it.

3:59

repeating the same sentence. He keeps saying

4:02

everything I've done I've done for my kids, which of

4:04

course he believes, but it's rubbish. The old

4:06

Walter White classic. Yeah.

4:09

Somebody says something about dancing the dance

4:11

and you know that none of them are taking it seriously.

4:14

Roman is like the little

4:16

kid who backs down as he always does.

4:18

Connor tries to be diplomatic.

4:20

He says, oh, I think it's working. I mean, delusional

4:23

even there really. So they all, they all

4:25

play to type.

4:26

All right. Well, there you go. DJ Pele.

4:28

This one's from Matt Etheridge who says,

4:31

Hey team, really enjoying the first

4:33

few episodes of the show and delighted to find it

4:35

pop up in my Vanguard Easter feed. Unbidden.

4:38

If you don't know about the Vanguard Easter, that's

4:41

what Mark and Simon over at Kermode

4:43

and Mayo's The Take. That's what they called,

4:45

you know, the guys who subscribe to them, get all the extra

4:48

bits. They salute the Vanguard Easter

4:50

every, every Friday on their

4:52

show. And you can do that too. You can become one

4:54

of the Vanguard Easter just by subscribing

4:56

for ad free STB

4:58

and K&M. Anyway, Matt says, could

5:01

I make a pitch for one of the finest characters ever to

5:03

grace the small screen in a show that blazed

5:05

the trail for everything that followed in its

5:07

wake. NYPD blues

5:10

own Andy Sipowitz. Oh my

5:12

God. I loved this show, Sasha.

5:14

It's really influential on you, isn't it? It's a big

5:17

show for me. Wonderfully brought to life by

5:19

Dennis Franz, never before or since

5:21

have we seen a character brought from the depths of depravity

5:23

and cynical prejudice to the heights of

5:25

redemption.

5:26

Unpicking his psyche is possibly worthy

5:28

of a series. Nevermind the show. I'd love

5:30

to see what you folks make of a man the likes

5:32

of whom I doubt we'll ever see on screen again.

5:35

Much love, M. I think you're

5:37

right, Matt, actually. It's probably

5:39

not the same kind of appetite to see

5:42

yet another male cop

5:44

going through this. I think at the

5:46

time it really was groundbreaking. It's sort of like 91.

5:48

It dovetail time

5:51

wise, as I recall, with Homicide

5:53

Life on the Street, which was grittier

5:55

even than

5:56

NYPD Blue and based on

5:58

real life events. that David

6:00

Simon who went on to write The Wire had

6:03

experienced in his time as a crime

6:05

journalist working alongside police for

6:08

the Baltimore Sun. They were almost competing

6:10

and I think in the UK they were both on Channel 4 which

6:13

says a lot as well, you know, always like trying

6:15

to push the envelope. Yeah,

6:17

since then it's like every cop show is going

6:19

to have like the trouble guy, he doesn't quite

6:21

play by the rules, you know. But I

6:23

think that's right, Dennis Francis character

6:26

Andy Sipper was one of the really

6:28

early ones. Also, I

6:29

don't think it's often you'll see a

6:32

protagonist who looks like

6:34

him. I mean, he looked a bit like the penguin

6:37

from Batman, you know. Like

6:40

I think even if you were doing the troubled

6:42

cop thing now, he'd still be really fucking attractive

6:45

like Idris Elba, do you know what I mean? That's

6:48

a great shout, Matt, thank you. Those

6:49

shows didn't make as big an impact

6:51

on me as they did on you, so it

6:53

might be worth going back and having a look because

6:55

there are so many detectives and like you say, so

6:58

many of them are a bit cardboard cut atty,

7:00

but a few do shine through and actually,

7:02

you know, I've got my eye on

7:04

a couple. Who's got

7:05

your eye on such? No, you can't say it. Other

7:11

people have, you know, some of you have

7:14

written in and suggested the lovely Luther

7:16

as well. I mean, obviously I would have my eye on

7:18

Luther, but I

7:20

think he's a bit more complex than some

7:23

of them. So let's maybe

7:25

lobby to do to do Luther.

7:27

Now, I thought I

7:29

would use this opportunity sash

7:32

to put you on a spot with some general,

7:34

yeah, some general sort of therapy questions.

7:37

The first thing I'm thinking is,

7:39

do you

7:41

ever get bored? Because

7:45

I sometimes I'm in therapy, I'm boring

7:47

myself here. I just feel

7:49

like a broken record. Do you ever genuinely

7:52

just get bored by certain clients? You think, Oh

7:54

God, here we go again, or even dislike

7:57

them?

7:57

People do ask that. fear

8:00

coming out that they're worried that they bore

8:03

their own therapist. I'm thinking I need something exciting

8:05

this week. I've got nothing. Yeah, or

8:07

that other therapists don't

8:09

like them. But you know what? I'm never

8:12

bored and I never dislike my clients

8:15

for slightly different reasons, although it's a very similar

8:17

reason. I can't dislike anyone

8:20

who shows me their vulnerability.

8:22

If they're bringing their whole selves and

8:24

they're telling me or showing me the

8:27

things about themselves that

8:29

they're really ashamed of, that they are too

8:31

scared to show anyone, that they have

8:34

tried to keep hidden, that

8:36

have impacted their whole lives. It's

8:38

really hard to dislike somebody when you

8:40

see that in the most self

8:43

than that vulnerability. And it

8:45

feels like a real privilege to hear

8:48

about people's deepest, darkest secrets. Even

8:50

the things that they think show that they're

8:52

sort of odious, horrible people. I

8:55

never think of it like that because I can always,

8:57

as I try and do with our clients that we have here, I

9:00

always try and say, well, what brought them to

9:03

exhibiting those behaviors? Because yes, behaviors

9:05

might be unpleasant,

9:06

but the person generally

9:08

has very good reasons that they've had to adapt

9:11

that behavior to protect themselves

9:13

or to save themselves from

9:16

something really awful. So

9:18

once you understand why people

9:21

are displaying behaviors that they

9:23

and we find unpleasant

9:25

or dislikeable, then it's really hard to

9:27

dislike them as people. It's partly

9:30

why I do the job really, because I don't think anyone's

9:32

dislikeable without good cause.

9:35

Well, sometimes if I'm watching a really affecting

9:38

drama or just something

9:40

disturbing, could even be a documentary,

9:43

it might creep into my subconscious, into

9:46

my dreams, or affect my

9:48

mood. How on earth do you

9:50

have, I

9:53

don't know how many clients you've got at the moment, but I assume

9:56

over the course of your career has been a lot.

9:59

How do you have all the

9:59

their issues, especially the more troubling

10:03

ones. Maybe they're really sad stories,

10:06

maybe they're really dark. How

10:08

do you deal with having all of those in

10:11

your head? Yeah, well, I think it's part

10:13

of why the training is so long. I mean,

10:15

it takes six years to train to be a psychotherapist.

10:18

And of course, it's not all just learning

10:20

loads of theory. It's learning about

10:23

yourself and it's learning about

10:25

how to have a

10:28

sort of boundary that is

10:30

porous when you need it to be so

10:32

that your empathy and your compassion and

10:34

your mirror neurons can

10:37

tune in to your clients. So you

10:39

can understand them on a more visceral

10:42

level, so that the boundaries aren't so

10:44

porous that you then just take on board

10:46

all of their stuff and you can't put it down at the end

10:49

of the day, or you can't distinguish between

10:51

what is theirs and what is yours. So

10:54

I think a lot of the training is around

10:57

understanding the boundary

10:59

between where they end and

11:01

you begin and when to kind of

11:04

open a door into that

11:06

because it's useful and when you need to shut

11:08

that

11:09

door and keep more of a

11:11

distance. And it is also really

11:13

important as a therapist to have lots of

11:15

self-care mechanisms, to have a way

11:18

of marking a transition between that was

11:20

me at work and this is me not at work.

11:22

For me, it's sort of exercise and yoga

11:25

and watching telly and swimming

11:27

and going out with my friends. And you

11:30

have to do something to kind of shake it off.

11:32

And sometimes I literally shake it off. I'll kind

11:34

of like jump around the room

11:38

and

11:39

shake my hands out as though I'm trying. You see massage

11:41

therapists do it as well. Sometimes it's almost

11:43

like you're flicking off other people's energy. And

11:45

of course, therapists have to have supervision.

11:47

We have to have our own supervisor that we can go

11:50

and take stuff to. So you

11:52

get a lot of support as a therapist

11:55

and it's part of the training to

11:57

kind of have that distinction between what

11:59

is there and some more.

11:59

is mine. I know you say you shake it off but

12:03

you know if I'm you and

12:05

I'm you know on a date with a guy or something

12:07

then he goes to the toilet. How do

12:10

you stop yourself going yeah classic

12:12

mother issues um overcompensating

12:17

you must be able to like psychoanalyze

12:19

a person that you just

12:21

a little bit outside

12:23

of work yeah I mean I suppose I do a

12:25

little bit clock a few things that

12:27

are really obvious but I wouldn't like use

12:29

that information

12:31

like an evil magician

12:33

yeah yeah but also

12:35

I'm not in that same frame of

12:37

mind I always think that when I'm in in

12:40

the chair so to speak I'm sort of 80% therapist

12:43

and 20% me and then when I'm kind

12:45

of out of the chair I'm 80% me and 20%

12:47

therapist. Yeah I can verify

12:48

that I mean we we went out for a drink

12:50

together and I within within

12:53

a couple of drinks I completely forgotten

12:55

you know what it would just seem like completely

12:58

normal I never I

13:00

never sat there going oh god I wonder what she thinks of this or

13:02

what she thinks of that so you definitely are

13:04

definitely doing that instinctively. I

13:06

mean we all sort of

13:08

care about our friends and want to know what's going

13:10

on about them and I think you know anyone that becomes

13:12

a therapist is because they are interested in people

13:15

anyway so it's only really an extension

13:17

of what I do that I've

13:20

always done and I think a lot of us do you kind

13:22

of you want to know what's going on with your friends you want

13:24

to sort of think why do you keep staying

13:26

in a job that you hate or relationship you

13:29

hate so you know it's just

13:32

people who kind of relate to other people

13:35

which you know good friends do there's

13:37

always going to be an element of that anyway

13:39

of thinking oh gosh you know I've heard you

13:41

say this before kind of things so it's

13:44

not a million miles away from it it's just

13:46

there's an awful lot of training and

13:48

boundaries in between.

13:51

Here's a curveball I had

13:54

an issue with a therapist

13:56

that I wasn't happy

13:58

about and I didn't know how to

13:59

to address it. And then I thought, wait a minute, I

14:02

know a therapist. What can you tell

14:04

people out there who maybe they're in therapy

14:06

now, maybe they're planning

14:08

to go into it, maybe they're terrified of going into therapy,

14:10

but once you're in there and it's not working

14:13

for you, for a client, what do they

14:15

do?

14:15

You are ultimately

14:18

employing the therapist to

14:20

be of service to you. But what

14:23

can often happen is that the dynamic gets

14:25

set up, rightly or wrongly, consciously

14:27

or unconsciously, that the

14:30

therapist is the expert and you are there

14:32

to learn from their great knowledge,

14:34

which is actually nonsense

14:36

on many levels because you are the expert

14:39

of you. And the therapist only

14:41

knows what you tell them. They can

14:43

only go on the information they've got and what they can

14:45

read into the stuff that

14:46

you're not saying, because we also read a lot

14:48

in what is not said. I would

14:51

always say, as I did to you, just say

14:53

what you're feeling because the therapist wants more

14:55

than anything to understand you better. And if

14:57

you're not saying this is uncomfortable

15:00

or this isn't working, and just

15:02

say. And if the therapist reacts badly,

15:04

then I think that tells you that you're possibly

15:06

not with the right therapist. That's all you need to know. Yeah, time

15:08

to move on. And I think maybe open with

15:10

it because save

15:12

that money, Matt.

15:13

And whatever a client brings,

15:16

that is information, whether

15:18

it is that they're worried that they need

15:20

you to like them, whether it is that

15:22

they're worried that they're boring you, all of

15:25

that stuff, that's information. If you were to come to

15:27

me and say, oh, I really worry that I'm boring

15:30

you. Are you sick of me? Do you think I shouldn't be

15:32

here? Which is actually something that many, many

15:34

clients do say that sort

15:36

of unworthiness of, oh, I'm sure your other clients,

15:38

you know, I'm sure they have proper problems.

15:41

All of that is information about how

15:43

you view yourself and how you view yourself

15:45

is often how other people have viewed you and how

15:47

you've been treated. And so what has those

15:49

are the things that have made your created

15:52

your internal working model, which is something that,

15:54

again, I've talked about a few times on the on

15:56

the on the pod.

15:58

It's absolutely fascinating. Here's

16:02

a great question, right? What

16:05

kind of session ender

16:07

are you? Are you

16:10

like, are you like one of those, I'm

16:12

going to have to stop you, like palm up. Or

16:15

do you let them like in, what

16:17

was that? Is it in mastermind where they say,

16:20

you know, I've started so I'll finish, you

16:22

know, you'll let them get to the end of their

16:24

thought, even though it's run over now

16:26

by 90 seconds, you'll let them get to a

16:29

pause and you'll

16:29

go, thank you, you know, we're going to have

16:32

to end there. That's our time. Are

16:34

you just like, nope, sorry. Or

16:39

if it's online, just the slam of that.

16:41

I can

16:43

never be quite so brusque. I

16:45

mean, I do think I am quite boundaried because I think

16:47

part of what makes therapy works is

16:51

that sense of security you get from knowing

16:54

that your therapist has boundaries and

16:56

that you can't weasel a bit more time

16:58

out of them by being a certain way. Because

17:00

again, that might play into things that you've done all your

17:03

life. Or if I'm just a bit more cryy,

17:05

or a bit more seductive, or a bit

17:07

more funny, then they'll let me stay.

17:10

But actually,

17:11

it's part of the therapy to say, no, those

17:13

old tricks are the very things that are holding

17:15

you back and that you need to learn other ways

17:17

of being. So I am quite boundaried. I

17:19

really try to stick to time.

17:22

And if somebody is terribly upset

17:25

or just getting to some big, big revelation,

17:28

what I always try and do is say, we've got five minutes left

17:30

or we've got 10 minutes left.

17:31

So they have a bit of a countdown.

17:33

So I might say, look, we have

17:35

only got five minutes. This sounds like it's a bigger

17:37

story. We might need to hold

17:40

that thought and bring it next week, rather

17:42

than start something that we can't finish. Or

17:44

if somebody's very sobbing

17:46

a lot, I might say, look, we might just need

17:48

to do a bit of grounding exercises. We might

17:50

need to think, tell me what you're going to go and do next

17:53

so that we can start to think ahead so that you're not leaving

17:55

here as a complete sort of puddle

17:57

mess to go off to your next. meeting.

18:00

So I tried to have a bit of

18:02

warning so that we can prepare for the

18:04

ending.

18:05

Interesting to think that

18:08

that could trigger, you know, the famous

18:10

doorknob moment. Yeah. It's one of the

18:12

first things I learnt from you. Yeah. All

18:14

right, after the break, we're going to look at why we want to find

18:16

narratives in others and I get to ask Sasha

18:19

some of those tricky questions. So we'll see you after

18:21

some messages unless of course you subscribe to

18:23

The Take, in which case we'll be back straight after

18:25

a shout out to our friends Nurse Jackie, Top

18:27

Boys Jamie and George Costanza.

18:32

Hey,

18:39

it's Ben here from Shrink the Box and this

18:41

episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

18:43

And look, I know from

18:46

personal experience how busy

18:47

our day to day lives can sometimes get,

18:50

you know, you've got no time to put on a cuppa,

18:52

take a breather, even switch on the telly

18:54

because, you know, it feels like we're always

18:57

giving our time and energy to everyone

18:59

else around us and we never quite

19:02

have enough time for ourselves.

19:04

And, you know, as an entertainer, I

19:06

can vouch for that. I feel that all the time.

19:08

And, you know, it leaves me

19:10

frazzled sometimes a bit burnt out even. That's

19:13

why I love how much we centralize

19:15

therapy in our discussions on the show. And

19:17

it's also why BetterHelp

19:20

is the perfect partner

19:22

to support you on your journey to better mental wellness.

19:25

All you need to do is fill out a brief questionnaire online

19:27

and you're going to be matched with a licensed therapist

19:30

in next to no time. So do

19:32

something for yourself today. Find more balance

19:35

with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com

19:38

slash Shrink the Box today to get 10% off

19:40

your first month.

19:52

And we're back. Here's an email now

19:55

from Lily who says, Hello, Ben

19:57

and sash. I'm 16 years old.

19:59

So youngest, I

20:02

reckon, sorry for the swearing, Lily.

20:04

I'm very interested in psychology.

20:06

So it goes without saying, I'm a massive fan of your podcast.

20:09

I've loved all the episodes so far, especially Queen's

20:11

Gambit. What a great show and very much

20:13

enjoyed the Sopranos episode, even though I've

20:15

never seen the show. Well, I'm glad about

20:17

that, Lily, because it's technically an 18. And

20:21

I'm sorry for all my potty mouth. So I

20:23

would

20:26

love to see an episode done on Hannah

20:28

Baker from 13 Reasons Why. She's

20:31

an extremely interesting character who feels so deeply

20:33

and has strong opinions,

20:34

which I think would be great to unravel in

20:36

the podcast. I'd also love to see an episode

20:38

on Joe Goldberg from you, as

20:41

I believe he has a lot of unsolved, underlying

20:44

psychological issues to unpack. Thank

20:46

you for all the great episodes in your podcast. Can't

20:48

wait to hear whatever character you decide to explore next. Kind

20:51

regards, Lily. Interesting

20:53

those two choices, Joe Goldberg and Hannah

20:55

Baker, because I

20:56

have a daughter just

20:58

a year younger than her and a daughter a year older,

21:01

and they love those shows.

21:03

I think there is a lot of not saying that teen

21:06

shows. In fact, you is is another

21:08

one Lily probably shouldn't be watching. But

21:12

regardless, they're very popular among

21:15

teenagers. And I know you

21:17

and I have been talking off air a little bit about

21:20

teen leaning television and

21:22

teenage, not just teenage characters, but

21:25

teenage viewing and the way

21:27

we package youth within television.

21:30

So I think hopefully there's going to be something

21:33

for Lily to get her teeth into very, very

21:35

soon. This one's from Laura,

21:38

who says Ben and Sasha, I've only

21:41

started listening to your podcast recently and

21:43

it blew me away, delving into the minds of

21:45

some of my favorite characters. So interesting.

21:48

Listening to Sasha explain the theories behind

21:50

certain feelings, actions and emotions

21:52

of these people that we think of as real

21:55

is a black hole I never wanted to leave. That's

21:58

lovely, isn't it? A lovely turn of phrase.

21:59

Imagine never wanting to leave a black hole. Sasha's

22:03

explanations make so much sense that

22:05

I've started to recognize certain behaviors portrayed

22:08

by these characters in people I know in

22:10

actual real life. Like

22:12

having a light bulb moment and realizing, oh, that's

22:15

why that person is like that.

22:17

I'm so glad Laura, cause that's the vibe.

22:19

That's what we're going for. Like it's not just

22:21

a flight of fantasy. No. Please

22:24

continue this podcast, she says, for as long as possible.

22:26

It's absolutely brilliant. Some suggestions

22:29

from Laura, she says Carmella, who we've talked about

22:31

definitely, AJ, Anthony Jr.

22:34

and Chris, Molto Santi from the Sopranos,

22:37

from Mad Men, Joan, Peggy and Betty.

22:39

Definitely we've discussed Peggy more than once. Kendall

22:42

from Succession. I mean, anyone

22:44

from Succession. Tommy from Peaky

22:46

Blinders.

22:47

Yeah, I've had a couple of Tommies. Dawn

22:49

from The Office. I don't know if I've seen that one before. That's

22:52

a lovely one because Dawn says very

22:54

little, but we see a

22:56

lot through her eyes just behind that desk.

22:58

She says so much by saying so

23:01

little. And Nicky, Margaret

23:03

and Jillian from Boardwalk Empire.

23:05

Yeah, I remember there being a few messy

23:08

people on that show. It's been a while since I've seen it.

23:10

Anyway, she says, thanks, keep up the excellent

23:13

work, Laura, brilliant.

23:15

What do you think it is that

23:17

makes us want to do this thing?

23:19

We see these characters on television. We

23:23

look at people's behaviors in fiction, but

23:26

also in

23:27

real life. And we want to come to a

23:30

conclusion

23:30

about them. We want to go, yeah,

23:32

you're like this because of this, this and

23:35

this. I've worked you out. You

23:37

know? Is that a, does it make us feel better?

23:40

I don't really know why

23:43

we feel the need to do it. So I'm like, I'm not gonna do

23:45

it. I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna

23:47

do it. I'm like, why do we feel the need to do it so

23:49

much? If we can spot in other

23:52

people

23:53

behaviors that we recognize in ourselves or

23:55

those closest to us, it helps us understand

23:58

them more. It helps us.

23:59

that maybe we're not so freakish

24:02

or so unusual or so awful, whatever

24:05

our view of ourselves is. And

24:08

I think understanding our friends, sometimes it can

24:10

be really hard to see our friends do destructive

24:13

things or make mistakes, but if

24:15

we can kind of see it portrayed

24:17

in fiction and work it out

24:20

that way, then it gives us a greater understanding.

24:22

And I think, you know, I don't think we can

24:24

do anything without self-awareness. I think

24:27

it was Socrates who said, the unexamined life

24:29

is not worth living. It becomes

24:31

a very dark, cold, unimaginative

24:34

place if we don't start to question

24:36

ourselves and those

24:37

around us. Absolutely. I mean, is there anybody more

24:39

irritating than someone who just

24:42

knows everything? They've worked everything

24:44

out. They've got their position. This

24:47

is it. Then they're right about

24:49

every little element of it. Good

24:51

luck to those assholes. All right, here we go. From

24:53

Aiden.

24:54

Hello, S and D. Shrinken box,

24:56

Sasha and Ben. Love

24:58

the show. I've not even seen the majority

25:00

of the shows you've covered, but still enjoy your dissection

25:03

of the characters. When I was a kid, I loved

25:05

telling jokes.

25:06

How is this going? I now realize a

25:08

bad, and one that sticks in my mind

25:11

is Knock Knock. Who's there? I'm sorry.

25:13

Oh, you got to join in. Okay. Knock Knock.

25:16

Who's there? Amos. Amos who?

25:18

Amos-skito. That actually

25:20

tickled me. And I don't know if she really shouldn't have. I've

25:22

just never heard that one before. In this case,

25:25

I'm thinking Amos is that disturbing,

25:27

yet intriguing character from the Expanse. Oh

25:30

my God, that was just a setup for his suggestion. Okay,

25:32

fine. Fine Aiden, I'll let you continue. There's

25:34

a script you're right to in there, Aiden. Have you thought

25:36

about writing a script? You do, did you? I don't know if

25:38

he is too extreme or not nuanced enough,

25:41

but I find him quite compelling, especially for

25:43

the reactions he provokes from those around him who

25:45

struggle to reconcile his actions and attitudes

25:47

with their own. Cheers from Aiden,

25:49

also a doctor, but not that kind or

25:51

that other kind. Wow, that's intriguing.

25:54

The most tenuous

25:57

intro. I mean, what a segue, Aiden.

26:00

I've not seen the Expanse, I've not even heard of the Expanse.

26:02

The STB team tell me it's

26:04

a much loved sci-fi series that's had six

26:06

seasons so far and a 95%

26:09

positivity rating on Rotten Tomatoes. That's

26:12

pretty good and it's on Prime, which I've got. So I'll check

26:14

that out. And Apple. Yeah, there's a bunch

26:17

of stuff like sci-fi shows.

26:19

We haven't got into like Stranger Things and

26:22

the OA, the Star Wars universe.

26:24

You can tell us all about that. Yeah, I suppose

26:27

I can. I think it feels like

26:29

they're sort of on the back foot a little bit

26:31

because the plot and

26:34

everything else is so forefront. Yeah. We

26:37

started off by digging into very

26:40

real world characters, I suppose. But you know, there's

26:43

any sci-fi that has ideas at

26:45

the forefront will have hopefully interesting

26:47

things. I mean, look at Alien. Remember Alien? That's

26:49

been psychoanalyzed for

26:51

donkeys. Yeah, for decades.

26:53

Yeah, because horror in general.

26:56

That, I think horror often shows us people's

26:59

deepest darkest secrets or fears

27:01

rather. I mean, I'm a big Stephen

27:03

King fan. I think he really

27:06

gets into people's psyches. He understands

27:08

the fears and terrors that lurk

27:10

beneath a lot of us. I

27:13

mean, he's done mainly films, hasn't he, rather than

27:15

series? Yeah, I think there must be adaptations.

27:17

I'm sure people are screaming down the... Yeah,

27:20

and I mean, another horror thing that people have been

27:22

talking about a lot recently is the loss of

27:24

us. Everybody, literally, the

27:26

meeting I was in before I came in today, I've seen

27:28

the loss of us. I've seen a lot of every day. I

27:31

almost don't want to watch it because everybody's telling me to watch

27:33

it. I've been a bit put off by starting it because

27:36

I've got PTSD from The Walking

27:38

Dead. It's the weirdest viewing

27:41

experience of my life because I stuck with it

27:43

for nine seasons. Wow.

27:45

To the point where I was dreaming

27:47

about zombies every night. Even when it stopped

27:49

working for me, I just kept on going because

27:51

in some kind of like abusive relationship

27:53

I couldn't get out of. And then

27:55

get

27:56

to the last season, the last season started,

27:58

I started watching.

28:00

episode one of series 10.

28:03

And I don't think I even finished the episode. I was just like,

28:06

it was just like this moment of clarity. I was like, I'm done.

28:09

I'm done after nine series,

28:11

I'm done. It was ridiculous. But

28:13

it's helped me now, I think. We're getting like

28:15

series that aren't really working. I'm just like, I'm not

28:18

actually, no.

28:18

No, life's too short. Yeah, I've been burned once. Yeah.

28:22

Yeah, you know what scares me most about a zombie apocalypse?

28:25

What's that? All the walking.

28:27

Ah, stepping

28:29

into the realm of jokes. Maybe

28:31

I think I should leave the jokes to you. Please do.

28:34

All right. So we'll see you next week

28:36

for... Jimmy. Your medical

28:38

soul. Yes, of course. Can't wait. Bye.

28:41

Bye-bye.