0:00

Hey, what's up OutKick fans? I'm Kurt Schilling. You

0:02

know me as the three-time World Series champion. I'm joining

0:04

OutKick to bring you a brand new baseball show

0:07

where we talk about everything but

0:09

only baseball. And you should subscribe

0:12

to the podcast on OutKick's YouTube and search

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for the podcast exclusively on

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Spotify.

0:18

The town is disgusting. It

0:20

is gruesome. It is charming.

0:23

It is quaint. It's like out of

0:25

a storybook. Alexis, what the

0:27

hell is the matter with you? Ugh,

0:31

okay. Stavros

0:33

is flying in to get me and I'm going to go live

0:35

with him for a little bit. Well, that

0:38

is not happening. And I am

0:40

appalled that my baby girl has turned into

0:42

a selfish, duplicitous whore.

0:45

Oh, hello.

0:46

Hi.

0:50

It's TV's BBS here. And Sasha Bates.

0:53

And this is Shrink the Box, where

0:55

we deep dive into the noggins of our

0:57

favorite fictional television characters.

0:59

Sasha, tell us about that brilliant little

1:01

clip at the top.

1:02

Oh, that was the Rose family

1:04

having landed in Schitt's Creek

1:07

and found a table at Cafe

1:09

Tropical. I

1:11

mean, they're like four sort of separate islands,

1:13

really. There's no kind of communication.

1:16

They're all just kind of like out for themselves. But

1:18

I think what's really lovable about them is that

1:21

they do have the capacity to change. We go on

1:23

that journey with them, painful and

1:25

slow though it is.

1:26

Yeah, I think the four main

1:28

characters are so well defined.

1:32

If you can get into that quickly in a comedy, I'll watch the pilot

1:34

again, just to remind myself how they set it up. You

1:36

get who each of them are

1:38

pretty much straight away. From

1:41

there, anything can work. Their

1:43

sort of ongoing outrage

1:46

just never stops being funny. Oh, it's

1:48

hilarious. And yeah, the ways they

1:51

each have to adapt to this sort

1:53

of shitty little town that none of

1:55

them want to be there. Their horror,

1:58

as we heard in the clip, at being there.

1:59

And the only one that could find a single nice thing

2:02

to say about it is Alexis. And that's only because she

2:04

thinks she's on the way to the escape. Stavros

2:06

is going

2:06

to save her. Yeah. It's

2:08

like watching squabbling, tantruming toddlers

2:11

kind of slowly going through like some developmental phases

2:14

and kind of gradually maturing and understanding

2:16

that they're not just individuals

2:18

and that they do live as part of a community and

2:21

as part of a family and having to understand

2:23

that they have to kind of take other people on

2:25

board and that that can bring benefits as

2:27

well as annoyances.

2:29

Yeah. And Catherine O'Hara

2:31

puts in one of the best

2:34

comedic performances. Hilarious.

2:36

Given to the screen for a long, long time.

2:39

She's so just out there.

2:40

And the outfits. I mean, her outfits.

2:43

The wigs. The wigs have names. The

2:45

wigs have names. She doesn't tone it down for

2:47

the sort of small town living at all.

2:49

She does everything as though she's going to like the Met Ball. It's

2:52

hilarious.

2:53

All right, guys, all you need to do now

2:56

is kick back, relax and stay tuned

2:59

as we discover how we

3:01

all behave differently when we're out of our comfort

3:03

zones. We look at what is an extroverted

3:05

introvert or an ambivert.

3:08

Didn't know that term before I sat

3:10

in this chair. And why does David like

3:12

clothes more than people? As they

3:14

say at the beginning of Shitt's Creek, the following program

3:16

contains scenes with coarse language and viewer

3:18

discretion is advised. Never a true word said.

3:21

Welcome with spoilers. Of course,

3:24

to shrink the box.

3:32

So for those of you who haven't watched the show for a while,

3:34

here's a little recap. The incredibly

3:36

wealthy Rose family are the

3:38

video store magnate Johnny, Eugene

3:41

Levy, his wife and former soap opera

3:43

actress Moira,

3:44

Catherine O'Hara, and their pampered

3:47

adult children David, Dan Levy and

3:49

Alexis, Annie Murphy. Now they lose

3:51

their fortune after being

3:53

defrauded by their business manager and they've

3:55

had to rebuild their lives with their sole

3:57

remaining asset, which is this small.

3:59

remote town called Shits

4:02

Creek, which Johnny bought for David's

4:04

birthday in 1991 as a joke. So

4:08

Sasha, tell us a bit about your clients

4:10

this week. We've got Twosome.

4:12

David and Alexis, the siblings, David's

4:14

the elder, he's 31. Before

4:17

the exile, he worked as a gallerist

4:19

in New York City and

4:21

very much kind of fulfills that, that

4:24

stereotype of being snarky and aloof

4:26

and he's all about the clothes and the

4:29

art.

4:29

I was on Portobello Road one time

4:31

and I saw this guy walking by and he had a really

4:33

long coat that came down to almost

4:35

like his feet. He's very affected

4:38

in the way he walked and everything he wore. And

4:40

he had a cap, sort of dad cap pulled

4:43

really low down, covering his eyes. And

4:45

on the front of the cap it just said, silently judging.

4:48

Oh, that

4:51

is so David. Yeah, David's got that sort

4:53

of tattooed across his forehead, I think. His

4:55

face just says that in every frame. I

4:59

mean, I said they were all a bit like little islands

5:01

existing separately, but I think David's

5:04

Island is the most heavily defended or

5:06

got the highest cliffs of them all.

5:08

He doesn't seem to like or enjoy

5:10

people. He's far more comfortable with

5:12

his art and his obje

5:15

and his clothes. I mean,

5:17

he really does not take to

5:18

small town life to start with. It's

5:20

got nothing for him and he's got nothing for it.

5:23

And he's very different, which is why I thought it'd be interesting

5:25

to look at both of them. He's so different from his younger

5:27

sister, Alexis, who's 27, and

5:30

who is just colorful and

5:32

bouncy and she's a party girl. And

5:34

she, in the same way

5:37

that David retreats from people, Alexis just like

5:39

runs towards them. She just wants to populate

5:41

her whole world with people. We

5:43

come to learn that she was made independent far

5:46

too young because the parents weren't really

5:48

around.

5:48

She just sort of drops in details like mad

5:51

adventures, kidnap and drug deals

5:53

and sexual blackmail.

5:56

And you

5:56

get the sense she's never really thought

5:58

about these things too. deep, please.

6:00

That was just a thing that happened.

6:03

It's fine. She kind of takes it all in her stride

6:05

and completely exasperates her mother,

6:07

Moira, who is more naturally aligned

6:10

with David, and they have a bit more of an alliance.

6:13

And then the other thing that is important to know about

6:15

Alexis, I think, to start off with is that she has

6:17

to do community service. She crashed

6:19

her car into a Prada store thinking

6:22

it was a parking garage. Because

6:24

of that, when she arrives, she does community

6:27

service alongside one of the local lads

6:30

called Mutt.

6:30

I suppose a serious thing running underneath

6:33

this is the extreme

6:35

things that she's

6:37

done in the past

6:38

seem so normal to her. And when we've

6:40

looked at quotes on quotes, serious characters,

6:43

sometimes we found that their

6:46

extreme behavior is normalized because

6:48

of a string of extreme experiences

6:50

when they were young that just made them

6:52

think, well, this is life now. This

6:54

is what happens to people like me.

6:56

Yeah. I mean, she talks about being locked

6:58

in the boot of a car and kidnapped in the same

7:00

way that somebody else might talk about losing their purse

7:03

or something. I mean, it's definitely

7:05

normalized. I mean, I think it's fair to say as

7:07

well is that this is a very funny show and there's

7:09

not a huge amount of trauma going on.

7:11

But yes, she has absolutely

7:14

just got used to mad things

7:16

happening. And as a consequence, I think, sort of seeks

7:18

them out. She gets bored very easily and

7:21

she's always looking for the next adventure because

7:23

to her, that's sort of normal.

7:25

Yeah. And you imagine with Johnny having

7:28

been this huge magnate, would have

7:30

been very busy with work and with Moira

7:33

being this sort of small screen star,

7:35

maybe neither of them were around that much and

7:38

just, you know,

7:39

laid on money as an alternative

7:42

parent, wherein the kids did

7:44

go a little bit rogue.

7:46

I think they completely did. I mean, there's quite

7:48

a lot as we get into it about just how neglectful

7:51

the parents were and how little they

7:54

know their kids. I mean, the kids soon needed sort of bring

7:56

themselves up as Alexis,

7:58

as a misadventure. and I think that

8:00

goes a long way to explaining why they are, but

8:05

also how their

8:07

exile in Shittscree allows them to get to know each other in a way that

8:09

they never did when they were sort of cushioned by

8:12

money and staff and their own lives. There's

8:16

that brilliant moment where Moira says, children,

8:20

mindless bickering is a luxury we can no longer afford. David

8:23

and Alexis are constantly at each

8:25

other's throats. What would be

8:27

some of the things that would jump out at you with both of them

8:29

sat there?

8:31

Well, they are very different, and one of the lenses

8:33

that you can view this through, and which I think comes

8:36

across really strongly in Shittscree, is through

8:38

this kind of dichotomy of introvert and

8:40

extrovert, because they so

8:43

easily fit those stereotypes, really. And

8:46

in normal, everyday parlance, we tend to

8:48

use introverts to mean somebody who doesn't go out and have many friends,

8:51

an extrovert is somebody who's more outgoing and sociable.

8:54

But actually, in the original Jungian typology,

8:57

that wasn't really the distinction. You can

8:59

just as easily have a very shy extrovert who doesn't go out much,

9:02

and you can have a very outgoing introvert.

9:05

What Jung said is that introversion

9:08

and extroversion is more about how you

9:10

view and experience the world, whether

9:12

your internal reality feels

9:14

more real to you, or whether your external

9:16

reality feels

9:17

more real. And everything

9:19

you do is going to be slightly

9:22

conditioned by your need to, if

9:24

you're an introvert, you'll need to retreat

9:27

into an inner world to be with your

9:29

thoughts, your feelings, you're always

9:31

trying to make sense of the world. If

9:34

you're an extrovert, you make sense of the world, and

9:36

your refuge is other people, so

9:39

you need them to reflect yourself

9:41

back to you. You can feel

9:43

a bit like you're disappearing without other

9:45

people. So that's why if you are a

9:47

shy

9:47

extrovert, you have to find other

9:49

ways to get that external world

9:52

more real to you. What shy extroverts

9:54

do is they can populate their world with

9:56

characters, say, like

9:58

they might be trained spotters.

9:59

or bird spotters. So if they're scared

10:02

of people and they don't want to go towards people, they

10:04

still need their external world to

10:06

be filled with characters. I think a lot

10:08

of shy extroverts get really

10:10

into things like novels

10:13

or films with big cast of characters like Harry Potter

10:15

or Game of Thrones, because again, the cast of characters

10:18

in the external world can become the friends

10:20

that they're too scared to have. So that's

10:22

what I mean when I say extroversion isn't necessarily how much

10:24

you go to parties, it's more about how

10:27

you respond to

10:29

the world. Right. So is that what I

10:31

am? I can be confident

10:33

on stage or in this situation here, any

10:35

sort of element of performance,

10:38

but I'm way more awkward when I'm not performing.

10:40

Yeah. Look, here's a perfect example. You remember

10:42

when we were on WandaVision and

10:45

we were talking about stages of grief and stuff. You

10:47

know, I'd recently lost my nan. At the funeral,

10:51

there

10:51

was a massive wake, it was about 200 plus

10:53

people, and I was so overwhelmed

10:55

by the number of people. My first instinct

10:58

was to go in the kitchen, you know, with a little hatch.

11:00

Yeah. Is there anything I can do? Yeah. And

11:02

I worked the bar pretty much from five

11:05

minutes after arriving until the end. And

11:07

it allowed me to say hello to lots

11:09

and lots of people, but I had even

11:11

a physical distance and a cut off. They

11:14

had to say hello, take

11:16

their drink and go.

11:17

That's the sort of an introvert trait

11:19

that you withdraw and you feel like

11:22

your own inner world is where you

11:24

retreat to. And I'm the same. I'm an introvert. I'm a very outgoing

11:26

introvert. I like people and I like being aware of

11:28

people and I can be as social as you do. Yeah.

11:32

But yeah, my kind of my safe places,

11:34

I'm always like the first to leave a party. I always kind

11:37

of want to kind of go and have to similarly

11:39

have like 20 minutes in the loo on my own, just

11:41

to sort of like regroup. So

11:43

extroverts, and I think Alexis

11:46

is a very strong

11:47

extrovert on every level.

11:49

She feels like she's going to disappear

11:51

if she hasn't got people. She says at some point, I

11:53

just need to be around people who are going to tell me I'm funny

11:56

and clever. She needs that external reflection.

11:59

Extroverts tend to feel

11:59

that their biggest fear is to disappear,

12:02

to dissolve. Whereas introverts

12:04

biggest fear is more that they won't be

12:06

able to make sense of the world, like there'll be an internal

12:09

collapse, there'll be an internal chaos.

12:11

So it wouldn't matter how many people try to reassure

12:13

you that you've done a good job, if you don't feel

12:15

like you've done a good job. And David's more

12:18

like that. He needs to get all his ducks

12:20

lined up, he needs to know his place,

12:22

which is not to say that he doesn't need people,

12:24

because we clearly find that he goes on to

12:27

need Stevie very much.

12:29

And introverts

12:29

have to learn to be more outgoing,

12:32

as I've learned how to be, and you have.

12:34

And extroverts need to learn how to be

12:37

more okay with understanding

12:39

their own solitariness.

12:41

So it's not necessarily about

12:43

you can't generally tell if somebody is

12:46

sociable. I mean, most of my friends, I think, would assume

12:48

that I'm a real extrovert, because I've kind

12:50

of learned over the years how to do that.

12:53

All of us need both skills, but it's

12:55

sort of more where you feel most

12:57

comfortable.

12:58

So what the hell is an ambivert? Somebody

13:00

who is equally comfortable in both. Right,

13:02

okay. It's like being ambideshed.

13:04

I don't think it's something that Jung came up with. I

13:06

think it's something that's been layered on since. The

13:09

other question I think is really interesting is, how

13:11

important is it to know this? If

13:13

you've beaten yourself up because other people seem

13:15

to do it better, then that can

13:17

be helpful. It's like, oh no, that's just the way I am. That's

13:20

okay, as long as I understand what I

13:22

need. Take it back to Alexis

13:25

and David a little bit. David, we

13:27

can see the certain clips where Alexis

13:29

is following him around, like when Johnny

13:33

and Moira go off for

13:34

the night. David's immediate instinct is, I'm

13:36

going to move into their room for a night, just to get a bit of me

13:38

time. She follows him in, says, let's have a party,

13:40

let's have a party. There's another time

13:42

when he just takes his journal into the bathroom,

13:45

just to kind of be on his own. There's

13:47

a lot of examples of him with his clothes. He

13:49

kind of needs to arrange his clothes. He

13:52

needs to know that they're kind of there

13:54

for him. Whereas Alexis is all

13:56

about, she's out there trying to make friends with Tyler,

13:58

and she's chasing boys.

13:59

and the minute the first party is

14:02

kind of given as an idea, she's like, we've got

14:04

to go. And she just like works the room. And

14:07

she just needs to be seen with people

14:09

because that's how she gets fed. It's about

14:11

how you recharge really. I think introverts

14:13

tend to have to go home and plug into the mains and kind

14:15

of like put the duvet over their head. Extroverts

14:18

are more like they have to go out like solar panels

14:20

and get the external sun

14:23

recharging them.

14:24

Right, let's hear a clip which sums all this up

14:26

quite nicely. A bit of David, a bit of Alexis,

14:29

and the first voice you're going to hear is Stevie's.

14:32

Look, I know this probably isn't your thing,

14:35

but there's a tailgate party later. It's

14:39

not exactly clubbing, but you know, close.

14:41

I don't know what tailgate means in my mind in

14:43

picturing like a Klan rally. Yeah,

14:46

just fewer pointy hats. Just

14:49

townies with unironic haircuts. Okay,

14:52

I'm going to pass. I'm not really in the mood to be a victim of a hate

14:54

crime tonight, so. Is

14:57

there a bar in this place or are we in one of those

14:59

religio cult towns? I

15:01

was just telling your brother about a party tonight, but

15:03

he passed, so. Yes,

15:06

love that journey for me. Okay,

15:08

so I'm looking for a buy, like

15:11

a mechanic or someone that hammers

15:13

stuff. At

15:15

least five seven, kind of like full lips,

15:18

athletic body, maybe

15:20

a neck tattoo would be cute? No, it

15:22

wouldn't. You

15:24

know, I think this could be really good for me. So, thank you. You're

15:28

welcome. Yeah,

15:31

I'm looking forward to it. Having

15:33

all that fun. So that was from Shitt's

15:35

Creek. Of course, season one, episode

15:37

two, entitled The Drip,

15:40

created by Eugene and Dan Levy, written by, and

15:42

I'm not sure how to pronounce this, but I think it's Chris

15:44

Potsibon and

15:48

directed by Jerry Cicariti, starring

15:50

Emily Hampshire as Stevie Budge, Dan

15:53

Levy as David Rose, and Annie Murphy

15:55

as Alexis Rose. We'll give you the full credits

15:57

for this and all the clips used.

15:59

at the end of this podcast. So we

16:02

talked a little bit, sort of touched on David,

16:06

maybe loving his clothes more than people.

16:08

Sort of mirrors in a little way, I'm not

16:10

saying that his mum's the same, but she

16:12

does sort of treat her wigs

16:15

in a similar way, almost like they're pets,

16:18

they're protective. And wigs are like

16:20

that, aren't they? Because they're making

16:22

you feel a bit more confident. But what's it about

16:24

with David?

16:25

He's very precious. And I think there

16:27

is a scene at the beginning where he doesn't even want

16:29

to sit down on the kind of the

16:31

skanky bed quilts thing.

16:35

And you just really get this sense of him as having

16:37

been wrapped in beautiful

16:39

cash meers and silks, and

16:41

using that as a bit of a protection of keeping

16:44

people at bay, because I think people do slightly

16:46

frighten him. He joked about being the

16:48

victim of a hate crime. Generally,

16:51

he's pretty comfortable with his pansexuality,

16:54

but you do wonder whether there was

16:56

some unacknowledged

16:58

bullying that he felt like he wanted to be protected

17:01

from people.

17:01

Maybe they did feel

17:03

threatening in some way. That's

17:05

never really gone into in a huge amount of detail.

17:08

But what we do know is that he has a sort of sensitive

17:10

little soul. Yeah,

17:11

I would speculate that he

17:13

was 10 as David,

17:16

somewhere

17:18

in Los Angeles at school, being

17:21

the flamboyant little 10-year-old that he

17:23

undoubtedly was, and certain other

17:26

kids at school not taking kindly to that.

17:28

No, and I think that's probably kind

17:30

of fed into his very sort of snarky

17:33

and aloof protective

17:35

casing. The siblings, I

17:37

think, and we've touched on the neglect

17:39

of the parents. They are very much set

17:42

up to be in competition. It's not just their personalities,

17:44

which as we've seen are sort of very stereotypically,

17:47

diametrically opposed. But it's

17:50

almost like when there are scarce resources, when

17:52

parental attention is hard to come

17:54

by. Often what can happen

17:56

is that they have to compete, and there's this really

17:58

funny scene early on.

17:59

I need that bed.

18:03

Why? Because I need it. Why? Because

18:06

if someone were to break in here in the middle of the night wanting to murder us, they

18:08

would attack this bed first. So I need this

18:10

bed. So you're saying that

18:12

you want me to get murdered first? In

18:15

front of you? And then what would you do? Would you

18:17

just run away and leave me to bleed out on

18:19

the floor? Uh, sort of. That was the

18:21

plan, yeah.

18:22

It can feel like, you know, I've got to get

18:25

closer to the centre because I feel vulnerable. And

18:27

so they're fighting to get close

18:30

to what they feel is safety. And they've had to create

18:32

their own safety. Certainly their parents haven't

18:34

protected them.

18:35

David's there, perhaps frightened,

18:37

definitely perturbed by the concept

18:39

of other human beings. Meanwhile,

18:43

relationships are kind of key for Alexis.

18:46

People are the centre of her world. And

18:49

she seems to forgive a lot just so that

18:51

she can be with people. But there has

18:53

to be a cost attached to that, right?

18:54

Yeah, well, she seems sort of

18:56

indiscriminate in who she wants

18:59

to be with. This guy

19:01

Stavwell, she makes a joke that who she hopes

19:03

is coming to, he never does come

19:05

to charging on his white horse to save her.

19:08

But she hopes that he will, even

19:10

though there's some way that they say that, oh, well, he's already

19:12

broken up with you five times. And she's kind

19:15

of, it's almost like she'll put up with that just so

19:17

she's got a boyfriend. And it also

19:19

emerges that they had a sort of an open relationship. She

19:21

said, yeah, we both agreed that he should see other

19:23

people.

19:24

It's

19:26

tragic. I suppose at this

19:28

stage, we have to sort of rewind a little

19:30

bit. And I don't want to blame

19:33

anybody, but we've got to look at the parenting.

19:35

I mean, John

19:38

and Moira are very particular people. What's your

19:40

instinct telling you?

19:41

Johnny says, you know, oh, I don't

19:43

understand why we don't know our kids. You know, we gave them the

19:46

finest education and the finest nannies because

19:48

he didn't really get that you can't

19:51

outsource this stuff. You need to

19:53

be there in person. Little

19:55

kids, they don't care about money and possessions. They just want

19:57

their parents.

19:59

there's actually, there's a heartbreaking

20:02

experiment that took place, I think it was way

20:04

back in the 50s when they were trying to understand about behavioralism.

20:08

And I think it was a guy called Harlow, but don't quote

20:10

me on that, who did this experiment with monkeys

20:12

where they took a bait. I mean, it's just awful.

20:14

It breaks my heart even to talk about it. And I hope to

20:16

goodness that they don't do this kind of thing anymore. They had a baby

20:19

monkey and they separated it from its mother and

20:21

they gave it a wire mesh mother

20:24

that had a sort of teat that it could suck

20:26

off from. And then they gave us a mother

20:28

that was wrapped in a sort of cuddly

20:29

exterior. And

20:32

the little baby monkey went and hugged the

20:34

cuddly exterior version

20:36

of a pretend mom that had no milk to give

20:39

rather than the sort of hard wire mesh

20:41

that had milk to offer because

20:44

their need for warmth and connection and

20:47

hugging and softness is such that

20:49

they would put that above the need for

20:52

food. But it just shows that kids

20:54

don't want to be sent to posh schools if they don't see their parents.

20:56

They don't want to be given loads of toys and

20:59

clever tech stuff if

21:01

their parents aren't there for them.

21:03

And so I think the reason that

21:05

it works so well this show is that the four of them are forced

21:08

into a proximity.

21:09

Yeah, that's what you want from comedy. You do.

21:11

And they have to get to know each other.

21:13

And at some point, Johnny says, Oh, I

21:16

just don't know them. And Moira does one of

21:18

her classic. Yeah, it's just

21:20

I'm sorry, we just had no interest in getting to know

21:22

you. And Johnny goes, no time,

21:25

no time to get to know you or something.

21:27

It's a real Freudian slip.

21:29

All

21:30

right, so getting back to Moira

21:33

herself, what a character as we've

21:35

established. But let's hear a little bit about

21:38

how, you know, when she really spirals,

21:40

how the family sort of have to come together,

21:43

always in panic to

21:46

take responsibility.

21:47

Have you seen your mother today? Yeah,

21:50

she was faced down on the carpet before dragging herself into

21:52

the closet. And you didn't say anything?

21:55

I thought she was maybe looking for contact

21:57

or something. Yeah, she googled herself

21:59

again. Now she She's having one of her things.

22:03

How bad is it? How bad is it? Solid seven.

22:06

It's not an eight. It seems manageable for you. Well,

22:08

except I've got a few things I have to take care

22:10

of, so I need you two to go in and take...

22:11

I did centro pay, so... And

22:14

I did her birthday and Aspen twice. And

22:16

I'm trying to sell this town. So if you kids

22:19

want any chance of getting out of here, you'll

22:21

help me out and go in and look after your

22:23

mother.

22:23

Well, my horoscope said that I shouldn't assume responsibility

22:26

for anybody but myself today. Yeah, and my

22:28

horoscope says, why don't you go in and help your mother?

22:33

And don't let her out of your sight, okay? We don't want her

22:35

detonating in public. I know.

22:38

But it's kind of fun to watch, though. Not

22:41

when you're the one she's trying to back over with a car. So

22:44

this is their normal.

22:47

This is what they have to deal with on a regular basis.

22:49

There's very little parenting going on. I mean,

22:51

Johnny tries, but basically, even there, he

22:53

was saying, I'm too busy. I've got a business

22:55

to get off the ground. I'm trying to sell

22:58

the town. So, yeah, it's like

23:00

wanting the kids to look after Moira, not

23:03

the other way around. You

23:04

can hear how normalized it is because they have

23:06

a sliding scale. Yes. It's a

23:08

seven. Seven, okay, yeah. That's doable.

23:11

Maybe work with that. I do feel

23:13

for them, but they are pretty

23:15

incompetent. I mean, the bit where

23:17

they're filling in Alexis's DUI,

23:20

the driving under the influence form, and

23:22

can't remember her full name. I don't

23:24

get it. It's all done. No, there's

23:27

still a little bit that needs to be filled in. All

23:31

that's missing is my middle name. Then fill it

23:33

in, please. Do I have to do that? Why

23:37

must you be so constantly irksome? Do

23:41

you not know my middle name?

23:44

Of course I do. I blessed

23:46

you with it. Okay, so then

23:48

what name should I put down then?

23:50

Alexis, do as your mother says, please.

23:53

Do you know my middle name? If

23:56

I said Anna... I can't believe

23:58

this. Alexis... something

24:01

rose. We have

24:03

so many disasters bombarding

24:05

us right now, my dear. The middle name

24:08

of an ungrateful child is hardly

24:10

a priority.

24:11

Wait, Alexis has a middle name? Why

24:13

is this the first time hearing of this? Do

24:16

I have a middle name? Now you come into the room. Do

24:18

you think this would be a potential

24:21

sort of door knob situation, you know, maybe

24:23

the end of the second or third session,

24:26

where

24:26

they're on their way out and they say, you

24:28

know what, we really

24:31

weren't parented. Yeah,

24:32

quite possibly. Yeah. I mean, I think the penny

24:35

is dropping with all of them that

24:37

this family is quite dysfunctional and

24:39

that they haven't been there for each other, but that

24:41

they maybe they could be now. I mean, it's

24:44

a very sort of slow, trickle

24:46

effect. It's not like they have. And that's also why this is such

24:48

a great show. There's no kind of like big

24:51

light bulb moments of, oh, but I do love

24:53

you really, which would just be awful and very 80s. It's

24:56

all these tiny little moments where

24:58

you can see this sort of grouping their way

25:00

towards acknowledgement of

25:02

themselves

25:02

and each other. Well, let's

25:04

go to a break and when we come

25:06

back, we'll discover how a Givenchy

25:08

jacket can be a transitional object. And

25:11

also what it means when you fall asleep in yoga

25:14

and why the roses are stuck in limbo

25:16

for now, at least. So we'll see you after

25:18

the ads, unless you're a subscriber to the take, in which case

25:20

I'll see you after I make a quick visit to my wig wall.

25:24

Now, should I go for Kristen or Robin?

25:27

Decisions, decisions.

25:39

Hey, it's Ben here from Shrink the Box. Now this

25:41

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28:26

Yes, we're back. Now, if

28:28

the roses are all in

28:30

their own private bubbles at the motel,

28:33

how do they find comfort? David's got his

28:35

clothes, Alexis is going off trying to find

28:37

a boy. But

28:39

I think it is also about that community

28:42

feel and the community sort of go

28:44

towards them in a way that they don't really deserve

28:46

given how snooty they are, but

28:49

they're actually quite welcoming.

28:51

And I mean...

28:51

They're a nice novelty as well to the world. Well, yeah.

28:55

I mean, they've never seen anything quite like it in

28:57

their lives. But Stevie in

28:59

particular, she and David get really

29:01

close. They're actually quite similar.

29:03

I think Stevie's also an introvert. She

29:06

is not very intrusive. Actually,

29:08

one of the things that I was thinking of earlier

29:11

with Moira is that because Moira's very

29:13

hysterical and very in-your-face

29:15

and demands attention, demands being

29:17

looked after, she may

29:19

well have been like that as a mother to

29:22

a baby as well.

29:23

If a baby is born with a strong

29:25

introverted

29:27

tendency, it's going to find

29:29

external arousal levels hugely

29:32

overwhelming. Babies have very few resources.

29:34

What they can do is they can turn their face away and they

29:36

can make noise. So they can kind of ask

29:38

a parent to come closer or they can kind of say

29:40

too much. And one of the

29:42

theories about introversion and extroversion

29:45

is that it could be about arousal levels

29:47

in the brain and how much you can cope. So introverts

29:50

tend to find the exon very

29:53

overwhelming. And so they need to constantly

29:55

dampen down their arousal levels, which is why

29:57

they have to withdraw. Whereas extroverts,

29:59

they...

29:59

have very low levels of arousal,

30:02

so they're constantly needing external stimulation

30:04

to get them back up. And the reason I brought that

30:06

up is because

30:08

Stevie, I think, also

30:11

is very withdrawn. She's quite quiet.

30:13

She holds back. So she isn't doing

30:15

any sort of looming up at him. She doesn't do any

30:17

kind of, here I am, come and play

30:19

with me kind of thing. So he can accept

30:23

that level of connection in a way

30:25

that he probably couldn't. Well, he can't really

30:27

manage Alexis's

30:29

level of stimulation. He's constantly moving

30:31

away from that sort of energy

30:34

source. Whereas David and Stevie, I think,

30:36

actually match each other quite well in terms

30:38

of energy

30:38

and how much they want and

30:40

need. And it's a really touching,

30:43

growing relationship.

30:45

And at one point, when you start to really

30:47

love David, I think, is when he's going through

30:49

his clothes, which, as we said, are sort of like his

30:52

friends and his protection. And

30:54

he says, I'm having a really hard time

30:56

with how people are not getting

30:58

how important my clothes are to me. And

31:00

Stevie kind of gets that. And rather than going, oh,

31:03

poor you, she just kind of holds back and

31:05

gives him a way to say, okay, look, well,

31:07

we can keep the clothes. We can put them

31:08

to one side that you can visit them. And

31:12

maybe I can be part

31:14

of this relationship. And

31:16

another therapeutic theory is about transitional

31:19

objects, which is where when you are

31:21

separated from your, it's normally an

31:23

attachment figure. I don't think Moira is his attachment

31:25

figure, but his safety of his art

31:28

and his New York life. The

31:30

clothes can act as a transitional object where

31:32

he kind of feels safe. Like kids have blankets

31:34

or teddy bears that sort of act as

31:37

their kind of thing that they hang onto when

31:39

mum or whoever is their secure

31:42

object is no longer there. So it's that

31:44

thing of, oh, I can take this with me. This is my

31:46

transition

31:46

into the new, more grown up me. And

31:48

this is what they're doing. They are working through, I think,

31:51

developmental phases. They're learning to be

31:53

less toddler like and demanding. They're learning

31:55

that, oh, there is an external world that

31:58

can maybe offer me some.

31:59

and maybe I can either offer

32:02

something to the world. Maybe it's not just about

32:04

getting my own needs met. The

32:06

relationship between David and Stevie is really key.

32:09

I think Alexis also, she's starting to see

32:12

Twyla as a potential friend. She goes out of her

32:14

way to try and stop Twyla making a fool of herself

32:16

by writing a song to Mutt as

32:19

they break up. And she starts to go out

32:21

with Ted's, and Ted is so

32:23

not Alexis' type. He's a vet,

32:26

he's quiet, and she's gradually

32:28

learning, oh, this is a different

32:29

sort of person. I can't just treat him like

32:32

a disposable object. I have to care

32:34

for his feelings. And in fact, he gives you a book,

32:36

it's about pets, but you can tell the underlying

32:40

message. It's called How to Care for Something Other than Yourself.

32:44

So the community are kind of helping

32:47

them to see,

32:48

you know, you could

32:50

integrate if you wanted to, and

32:53

there are bits of you that we like and we

32:55

want to nurture, and maybe there's bits of us

32:57

that you could maybe appreciate rather than Mog.

33:00

And we see some

33:02

developments here and there, don't

33:04

we? David and Stevie is the obvious

33:07

one. Well, they end up in bed together, and

33:09

she's sort of a bit confused because

33:11

she thought he was gay, and then he sleeps with her,

33:14

and she doesn't quite understand. Which

33:16

is why I thought you liked red

33:18

wine, but it appears you like white

33:20

wine. And he says, yes, I like all wines.

33:24

I think it's interesting, the kind of

33:26

depiction of sexuality in

33:28

this, because the other

33:30

than David saying, oh, I don't want to be victim of a

33:32

hate crime at the tailgate party, it never

33:34

seems to bother him that much. He seems very comfortable.

33:37

His family seemed very comfortable. Everyone

33:39

just seems to be, yeah, fine. And when Johnny says

33:41

to Roland that David is actually

33:43

pansexual, which means that he's

33:45

into boys, girls, girls that were boys, boys

33:48

that were girls, you know, he's absolutely

33:50

fine with every flavor of wine.

33:54

You know, even Roland is just

33:56

sort of like, oh, okay, right, you know, so I don't

33:59

know.

33:59

realistic it is, but it

34:02

is a lovely depiction of how things

34:04

could and should be really. I think it's very

34:07

sweet that they just kind of, he just is and

34:09

it's not a huge thing and everyone's allowed

34:12

to be who they want to be really.

34:13

Yeah and you know that's the

34:15

show. It wouldn't be quite

34:17

as funny if Roland turned out to be

34:20

a horrific bigot.

34:23

No, we wouldn't love them all quite as much

34:25

if that were the case. So towards

34:27

the end of the first season they've realized

34:30

things about their former life that

34:32

aren't great and they like

34:35

certain aspects, limited aspects of

34:37

their new life. Are they in

34:39

a limbo or is this a place where

34:41

like a springboard that we can move on

34:44

from? Like where are the roses? There

34:46

are signs that they can't quite go back

34:49

but they also can't quite go forward. They are in this sort

34:51

of limbo and there's an interesting moment

34:53

when

34:54

David's sort of anxiety about

34:56

who he is and where he is and what's happening comes

34:59

out as a panic attack and to try

35:01

and calm him down he goes to

35:03

a yoga class which

35:06

I think is very sweet

35:08

and is another thing that's sort of very close

35:10

to my own heart. I've done yoga for 30 years,

35:13

I'm trained as a yoga teacher and I've even written

35:15

a book about the parallels between yoga

35:17

and psychotherapy because I think this scene with David

35:19

kind of explains why you would do yoga

35:22

in a way because you

35:24

can see that

35:25

what he's doing there is he's very anxious,

35:28

he's very heady, he's very kind

35:30

of spiraling like Moira does and

35:32

the yoga class enables him to move from

35:34

what we would call sympathetic nervous system activation

35:37

which is when you're very hyper and it

35:39

enables him through the kind of like decreasingly

35:42

energetic postures to move into parasympathetic

35:45

nervous system activation which is where

35:47

you are able to be calm, where you're able to think more

35:49

clearly, where you're able to to relax.

35:52

As he's doing this yoga that's working

35:54

on him physically he's also

35:55

talking to Jocelyn who's such a fabulous

35:58

lovely warm woman I think.

35:59

I think she's great at what she puts up

36:02

with. And she's listening and he's admitting

36:04

that he's lonely. She's this really

36:06

sort of comforting maternal presence. And like,

36:09

again, talking about another episode that we've done in the

36:12

past, we did Tanya in White Lotus.

36:15

Just as how she found in Belinda the

36:17

massage therapist physical touch

36:19

and that comforting maternal presence. And these

36:22

three things, the kind of calming

36:24

his nervous system, the being listened to,

36:26

and that physical connection

36:28

shows that as his yoga

36:29

poses are getting more intimate and he's

36:32

opening up to the poses, he's

36:34

also getting more intimate and opening up to Jocelyn.

36:37

And they get to the point where she's

36:39

lying in child pose and he's lying across,

36:41

which is curled up in a ball on the floor.

36:44

He's lying across her back and he's got

36:46

so relaxed and he's so comfortable with it that he falls

36:49

asleep. And she's just kind of trapped.

36:52

He's found that peace. He's found that

36:54

maternal presence. He's found that physical

36:57

intimacy, that enables him to come down

37:00

from that anxious spiraling place to a place

37:02

of, yeah, I can soften. I

37:04

can actually be in this moment

37:06

and I can sleep finally.

37:07

So I wonder if that's another example,

37:10

David's experience there, of

37:12

what they're all sort of maybe

37:15

nudging themselves towards without realizing

37:18

it. You know, at the beginning where Moira

37:20

says, children,

37:21

you are blind to reality. And for that, I am most

37:24

proud. Like is self-realization

37:27

starting to sort of creep in?

37:29

Yeah, I think reality is creeping in. With

37:31

reality comes sort of

37:33

the pain of, well, we've got decisions to make

37:35

here. And when they find

37:37

that they haven't sold the town and they're not

37:39

getting out, I think David's

37:42

fear factor goes up quite

37:44

a lot. He's reverting

37:46

back. As we tend to do in times of crisis, we

37:48

revert back to our old ways because we haven't

37:51

quite worked out who is this new me. So

37:53

we revert back to the old me.

37:54

You see these changes coming

37:57

in here and there, maybe even

37:59

starting to see. see the potential

38:02

of staying. Yeah, and Alexis

38:05

goes to tell Ted that she's

38:07

leaving. And then she has to go, and she's

38:09

actually quite careful in how she tells

38:11

him. She realizes that when she then sleeps

38:14

with Mart, because she thinks she's going,

38:16

she suddenly realizes she doesn't want to hurt either of

38:18

them. And I think normally that would have just been like all

38:20

in all in day's work to Alexis. Yeah, put

38:22

them

38:22

in a box, move on. Yes. And

38:25

it feels again, I've been talking about developmental phases, it

38:27

feels like almost they've reached

38:29

a bit of a teenager-y phase, where the

38:32

young bit of them that wants to hang on to

38:34

what they know, and the new

38:36

world feels a bit like, oh, well, I think

38:38

I've got new capacities and new learning to

38:41

take me through, but I'm not really sure

38:43

if I have. It's almost like they've glimpsed

38:45

another more connected world, what

38:48

money couldn't buy them, but they're still kind

38:50

of like, oh, yeah, barf. And

38:53

we look just at

38:54

how the end of series one is it's very up in

38:56

the air, because they're up in the air, and they're like,

38:58

oh, that's what those teenagers are. It's like, I don't know which way

39:00

to go with this. I'm not

39:02

quite

39:02

sure what's right. If there was

39:04

like a therapeutic message, what

39:07

do you think the one would be for us all from

39:10

Shitt's

39:10

Greek? In a way,

39:13

I'm going to sort of use another yoga analogy, now that

39:15

I've gone to one of my favorite topics. I'm

39:18

going to use that open tool. I mean, in yoga, you're trying to

39:20

find a balance between being very

39:23

rigid and stiff, or being so sort of chaotic

39:25

and flexible and a balance of strength and

39:27

flexibility, so that you've kind of got

39:29

enough backbone to stay

39:32

in a pose and to hold your own weight and

39:35

hold yourself up. But you're

39:37

not so rigid that you're going to fall over. So you've got enough

39:39

kind of flexibility that

39:40

you can then move into the softer

39:43

poses. What we're seeing with

39:45

the siblings here, and maybe with the whole family,

39:47

is a sort of similar dichotomy between

39:49

rigidity and chaos. David was very rigid.

39:52

This is who I am. I like clothes. I

39:54

like art. I don't want to talk to anyone. And

39:57

he's had to learn to soften off those kind

39:59

of very soft, strict boundaries.

40:02

Alexis was all chaos, she was all flexibility,

40:04

she was all, yeah, I'll sleep with anybody, I'll

40:06

talk to anybody, I'll go to any party. She's

40:09

very chaotic and she's had to kind of firm herself

40:12

up. She's had to learn the strength, but she's had to find some

40:14

boundaries. She's had to realize I can't just do

40:16

what I want when I want. What I

40:18

think we learn is that there's not a one size fits

40:20

all response. You know, you can't say, okay,

40:22

if you want to survive life in a small town, this

40:24

is your top five tips. You have to

40:26

look at where your starting point is, how rigid

40:29

you are, how

40:29

introvert you are, how defended

40:32

you are, and you've got to kind of work with

40:34

that. Or, you know, you look at the opposite

40:36

and you think, well, I'm too open. I give myself

40:38

away too easily. I kind of, I'm too

40:41

kind of chaotic and I need to learn boundaries.

40:43

So you start from where you are, know

40:45

yourself. If you know yourself, you know

40:48

which is your direction of travel and

40:50

that's going to be completely different for everybody.

40:53

They're learning about themselves, they are learning

40:55

about other people and they are each kind of softening

40:57

each other's edges and helping

40:59

each other find their

40:59

own boundaries. The listener

41:02

won't know this, but I listened to the

41:04

entirety of that answer in tree

41:07

pose.

41:07

And

41:10

achieved an incredible level of balance. Yeah, and

41:12

I could spot you wanting to fall asleep

41:14

as well at the end. Nice

41:17

one, Sash. Listen, thank

41:19

you to everyone for your emails as

41:21

ever. Thanks for our new ones this week and keep

41:23

sending your character suggestions. Shrink the

41:25

box at somethingelse.com. That's

41:28

shrink the box at something without the G else.com.

41:32

So digging into the bag,

41:34

Sash, who have we got? We've got one

41:36

from Down Under. I swear we get a lot of Aussies.

41:39

It makes the tentacles of shrink the box feel limitless.

41:43

So thank you, Toby from Melbourne, who says, hey,

41:46

Ben

41:46

and Sasha,

41:47

I'm a massive fan of shrink the box. Such

41:49

a brilliant idea. It's whack. It hasn't been done

41:51

before. So I've got some suggestions

41:54

here for some folks I'd love to chat

41:56

about. Hannah from Girls, Blair

41:59

Wardolph.

41:59

from Gossip Girl. Oh yeah,

42:02

my kids go on about Blair. Fiona

42:04

Gallagher from Shameless. Oh yeah. Yeah,

42:06

good character. Piper Chapman from Orange is

42:08

the New Black. I have to say, if I was doing

42:10

Orange is the New Black, I think there's a few others I'd

42:13

go for Piper. Yeah, Issa

42:15

Dee from Insecure.

42:16

Oh yeah, I like her. Definitely. Selena Maya

42:18

from Veep. Oh, Veep, watch your. Paperboy

42:21

from Atlanta. I love Paperboy.

42:23

We've talked about that one, so haven't we? Yeah, that's

42:25

my save character. In that show, Toby

42:28

says, I also just realized Ben's sister is Zaydi Smith,

42:30

my all-time favor author. Love the show, keen

42:33

for more. Cheers, Toby. There you go, look, look

42:35

how far Google can get you. Yeah. It's

42:37

amazing. This is from David Wignall

42:40

from Victoria, Vancouver Island, Canada.

42:43

Wow. All right, here we go, round the world.

42:45

Dear Ben and Sasha, just finished listening to

42:47

the Shiv Roy episode. Loved it. Thanks

42:49

for another wonderful listen. In discussing Shiv

42:51

and the other kids' upbringing, I'd be really

42:54

interested to hear your thoughts about the

42:55

opening sequence, which seems

42:57

to convey so much about their childhood.

43:00

Every shot tells a little story.

43:03

It's a great question. We've been asked

43:05

it a lot before. So we

43:08

think, David, this is a tipping point. You

43:10

are the straw and we

43:12

are the camel's back. So we're gonna deliver this

43:14

first. Ready for this?

43:17

Welcome to

43:18

Shrink the Credits.

43:21

What's gonna happen here? Sasha and I are gonna do a little on the

43:23

spot commentary on

43:25

the opening sequence of Succession. We

43:28

got it up on the screen here. We've not

43:30

tried this before. We

43:32

got the sound down for rights reasons. So we're

43:35

gonna get sued by whoever that hip-hop producer is.

43:37

It's a minute and a half. So we're gonna do this sped up. It's

43:39

gonna be really boring. Here we go. All right,

43:42

Gully, that's our engineer.

43:43

Run VT. We're gonna do this. We're gonna do this.

43:46

We're gonna do this. We're gonna do this. We're gonna

43:48

do this. Run VT. Here we go. Yeah,

43:50

so you got the four kids. They don't really look

43:52

like them, but they're still- Huge house. Yes, sad. Huge

43:56

house. Chandelier.

43:57

Art. And newspaper. And then we're seeing

43:59

the newspaper. Oh, we're treating back. Logan's

44:02

retreating back into the world. Yeah, now we see

44:04

a girl who looks a bit more like Shiv, looks slightly

44:06

older. Another big house. Big houses,

44:09

big city, you

44:10

know, the financial district. Oh, it's

44:12

a horse. They've got posh animals.

44:15

Yeah. I can't believe

44:17

that. There's, you know, looking from

44:19

a distance. Yeah, Logan's always off

44:22

in the distance. His business is

44:24

getting bigger and bigger. He looks very thoughtful. He

44:26

doesn't look like he's about to play with the kids

44:28

in any way. House

44:29

has got even bigger, though. House is even bigger.

44:32

We moved on to a chateau. There's tennis, there is staff,

44:34

there's waiting staff. Oh, grumpy mother. Grumpy

44:36

mum looking on TV channels,

44:39

ATM news. Reporting on New

44:41

York. Business deals being made. Now the animals

44:43

have got crazier. It's an elephant now.

44:46

And the drums have kicked in. Oh,

44:48

Logan's back again. Lunch

44:51

outdoors

44:52

with a young Logan and family. And

44:54

then that morphs into current Logan.

44:56

Yes. He's back again.

44:59

He's always got his back to us. He's unreadable.

45:02

That's HBO Sunday's 9pm. So

45:05

David says, I'm slightly obsessed with the shot of Logan

45:07

walking away from the camera across a large

45:10

lawn. He's got his hands behind his back,

45:12

isn't he? He says, who's behind the camera?

45:14

Is it Shiv or one of the other kids? Why are they filming

45:16

their father walking away? What just happened? I

45:18

need to know. He says, anyway, thanks again. Delighted

45:21

to hear this will be continuing all the best

45:23

and all of that from David Wignall in Canada. Thank

45:26

you, David. Thanks so much. What do you

45:28

think? Do you think this is a collation

45:30

of many years of home

45:32

video and it's them doing it

45:34

or is it like an au pair? Like

45:37

what's going on?

45:38

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because

45:40

often they all the four kids are in

45:42

the shot as well. So

45:45

yeah, maybe it does feel a bit

45:47

like the somebody kind of like some unseen

45:50

narrator, nanny or something.

45:52

I would imagine Logan maybe not

45:54

even delivering the order,

45:56

but through an intermediary like

45:58

the head of the house or whatever. tell the nanny

46:00

today, I've bought them a camera, tell

46:02

her to get the camera out and do some fun

46:05

stuff. I don't know, what do you do with kids with a camera? Film

46:07

them jumping in a pool or something, I've got to go. Yeah,

46:09

I've got to go, that's the sort of mantra,

46:12

isn't it really? They're often looking,

46:14

aren't they, into the distance, the kids,

46:16

like, there's a longing

46:18

there. And watching it again, it was quite

46:20

funny seeing the escalation in animal usage.

46:25

Because that sort of builds with

46:27

the score. You know, the drums don't

46:29

really hit until the elephant appears.

46:32

And it's like galumphing around, you see the kids

46:35

swaying back and forth on the top as you would if you

46:37

were riding a fucking elephant.

46:39

Yeah, also maybe a metaphor of Logan.

46:41

Yeah, the elephant in the room. And

46:44

you can just imagine, you know, a young

46:47

Roman bringing his mates around and going, we've

46:49

got a fucking elephant now, come check it out. Let's

46:52

get the pony high. Yeah. Yeah.

46:56

Alright, thanks David.

47:00

And everybody else, thanks for listening. And

47:02

as always, you know, follow us if you don't already

47:04

on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or

47:07

Stitch or Amazon, whatever your preferred

47:09

outlet is, find us there, follow

47:12

us, you'll get the new episodes. Drop your

47:14

friends a link, you know, share it, so easy,

47:16

just one little tap. That's how we're

47:18

going to get to make more from you and your friends and multiplying.

47:22

Just like the Roy's animals, we'll just have so many

47:25

of you out there supporting us and hopefully you'll

47:27

get more exotic

47:27

as well. I don't know where

47:30

this is going. If you want to listen

47:32

to Shrink the Box ad free, then subscribe to Extra

47:34

Takes. Your subscription gets you ad

47:36

free episodes of the show plus ad

47:39

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47:41

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47:45

can get an ad free trial right now by clicking try free at the top of the Shrink the Box

47:47

show page on Apple Podcasts or by

47:50

visiting extra takes.com.

47:51

Our production team this week have been the wonderful

47:54

Lily Hambly in production management, the

47:56

assistant producer

47:57

is Basak Ertan. Jonathan

48:00

Emieri, studio mix engineer

48:02

is Gulliver Tickle and the senior producer

48:04

is Selena Reem, exec producer

48:07

Simon Paul, Sasha.

48:09

We're waiting with baited breath. Who

48:11

will be next week's client? Well

48:13

I'm gonna let her tell you herself,

48:15

have a listen to what she's got to say about who

48:17

she is. Can I just say this so Liam,

48:21

the light is making me nervous. You've

48:23

had a lot to drink and you've got the shakes and you might press

48:26

it without intending to and the light to put it down.

48:28

Just leave

48:28

me alone you stupid bits. You're upset I understand

48:30

that. The point I'm making is that with all

48:33

these fumes and frankly I don't know how you're staying conscious

48:35

you could go up any second whether you intend to or

48:37

not and once you go up you won't just go

48:39

up a bit you'll go up a lot and the other big thing to say

48:41

is it hurts. Three seconds

48:44

in you'll be screaming at me to put you out, seven seconds

48:46

in you'll be begging me to shoot you. I've got a

48:48

negotiator

48:48

under way for you but he's stuck in

48:51

traffic. Okay. It's

48:53

a big thing to keep subject to your conversation. Yeah I think

48:55

we've got that covered. I'm

48:59

Catherine by the way I'm 47 I'm

49:01

divorced I live with my sister who's a recovering

49:03

heroin addict. I have two grown-up children

49:06

one dad one who doesn't speak to me and a grandson so.

49:08

Why? Why don't

49:11

you speak to you? It's complicated let's talk

49:13

about you.

49:14

I

49:16

don't think anybody can tell anyone

49:18

off quite like Catherine. No. Not

49:21

even Logan Roy. There's something about it when

49:23

she goes on one. That would be a match. Don't

49:26

you just feel like tiny like you're being told

49:28

off in school when she goes off on one. She

49:30

is the greatest. Catherine K. Wood from Happy

49:32

Valley who so many of our

49:35

listeners have asked for pretty much from

49:37

episode one when we first put our email

49:39

out there. So

49:42

yeah you know she was on the

49:44

list we just had to get there and

49:47

what you just heard was an amazing example

49:49

of Catherine in full flow from the first

49:51

episode of the first season. The last

49:54

series the way the media just talked

49:56

about and the fans was saying it you

49:58

know this is one of the all-time

49:59

great television shows which,

50:02

you know, when I watched it I thought I cannot disagree,

50:05

cannot disagree. What is it about Catherine

50:07

though, do

50:08

you think Sasha, people are going to want

50:10

to know more about? Well I mean like you

50:12

just said she's sort of frightening

50:15

in her kind of straightforwardness. She's

50:18

just no nonsense, she says it like it

50:20

is, she's firm but she's also

50:22

fair and caring, she's vulnerable

50:25

but she also just will kind of like power

50:28

on in there, she takes no bullshit.

50:32

But she's got, you know, these internal

50:35

demons, she's wrestling a lot of grief,

50:38

as she just said she's lost her daughter, her

50:40

son doesn't talk to her, she's having to bring up her

50:41

grandson on her own. What

50:44

she didn't say was that she's also lost her husband,

50:46

he divorced her, she's living with her

50:48

sister who's a heroin addict, I mean she's...

50:50

And probably her best friend as well. Yeah,

50:53

yeah. She doesn't really acknowledge her best friend.

50:55

No but it's a beautiful relationship

50:58

between the two of them. But her sister's a bit scared

51:00

of her so I think we're all a little bit scared of Catherine.

51:03

But yeah I'd love to see her and Logan

51:06

see what kind of a match that would be. If you imagine

51:09

the spot, WWE style. We're looking

51:11

at season one

51:11

right? Yes and all of the seasons

51:14

are on BBC iPlayer but I think we

51:16

should just look at one because there's

51:18

a lot to get through and there's so much in

51:20

there but also because a lot of you out there

51:22

haven't got to the end of the later season yet it's

51:25

that recent and I don't want to spoil it.

51:27

Yeah I would have hated this spoil

51:29

for me so yeah we're sensitive

51:31

to that. For the first time I guess we're

51:33

going to hold back on some spoilers.

51:36

And if you haven't watched it what the hell have you been doing with

51:38

your life? Seriously just watch it it's amazing.

51:41

Alright I think yeah it's probably

51:43

about that time isn't it?

51:44

Mmhmm I'm afraid so. Alright let's get on

51:47

with it. Tada. Bye.

51:51

It's time for shits credits. We

51:54

looked at season one created by Eugene

51:56

Levy and Dan Levy. The clip at the top where Moira,

51:59

Catherine O'Hara tells us

51:59

Alexis, Annie Murphy and

52:02

also

52:03

same episode where the siblings

52:05

are arguing with each other on the beds about who's

52:07

gonna get