0:03

Do you want to know what you should do next? How

0:05

about this? Instead of trying to dish

0:07

the dirt on one poor misguided, misinformed lump

0:09

to you, write a big article, something you can sell to one

0:12

of the nationals, about why so much of it goes on round

0:14

here.

0:14

So much? Drugs.

0:17

Wasted lives. This

0:20

valet's awash with every kind of crap you can get your hands

0:22

on. There's your story. Do

0:24

you want to know where they took him? They probably took

0:26

him to the psychiatric unit when in fact all he needed

0:28

was a brief controlled demonstration of alpetropiose

0:31

when you put it anywhere near a naked flame because he had no

0:33

idea how bad it'd be.

0:36

Where's Tommy Lee Ross living? No

0:40

idea.

0:43

How you doing guys? It's Ben Bailey-Smith And

0:46

Sasha Bates And if you don't know by now,

0:48

this is the podcast where we put our favourite

0:50

fictional TV characters into therapy to find out

0:52

what the heck is going on

0:54

and what we can learn from it. Sasha, could

0:57

you do the honours and tell us a little bit about

0:59

the first clip we just heard?

1:01

That was Catherine Cawood

1:03

who is a police officer in

1:06

the aptly named Happy Valley.

1:08

I think it's really interesting that it's called Happy

1:10

Valley because it so isn't and she is fighting

1:14

the drugs and hopelessness

1:17

and helplessness of all the people that live there

1:19

and in a way it's a bit of a mirror of her life

1:21

because she's suffering a lot

1:23

of grief and loss herself but

1:26

doing it as we heard there with a lot of forthrightness

1:29

and honesty and humour and

1:31

just wanting people to get on with it and wanting to make change.

1:33

What an unforgettable show, unforgettable

1:36

performance from Sarah Lancashire.

1:38

What really blows me away about the show from a writing

1:40

perspective

1:41

and we always celebrate the writers on this show is

1:44

when you think about this first season that

1:46

we're looking at today that came

1:49

out in 2014. What I

1:51

respect about this show is the way Sally

1:53

Wainwright

1:55

just waited until she was ready. It does feel

1:57

so real and you do feel because of that

1:59

passing of

1:59

time which is so visibly demonstrated

2:02

by Ryan, moving from being an eight-year-old

2:04

to a 17, 18-year-old. You

2:07

kind of really feel like you're going to know them and you're living

2:09

their lives and they are lives of quite

2:12

a lot of bleakness and confusion

2:14

and difficulty and sadness. But

2:16

also, it really celebrates the kind of those little

2:19

moments of connection and the mundanity

2:21

and getting by. It's

2:23

so packed with humanity. It really

2:25

is. Yeah. And there is, I mean, there is a

2:27

really interesting plot line as well, but

2:29

that sort of takes a backseat to the family drama

2:31

really.

2:31

There's so many exciting, thrilling,

2:34

scary moments in this

2:36

in terms of the overarching

2:38

plot. But there'll be

2:40

moments of just confrontation

2:43

between, say, the two sisters, the

2:47

amazing Siobhan Finneran. It's

2:49

more explosive than the biggest

2:51

explosion you could so

2:54

true, physically put on screen. And that

2:56

is how it feels, right? In real life. You know, when

2:59

you have a thing with someone really close to sibling or something

3:01

like that, where there's an unsaid troop,

3:03

like it's a thing that's painful that no one's

3:05

talked about for years and then someone just goes

3:08

for it. Those moments on Happy

3:10

Valley are captured, like, how

3:13

did they find that honesty?

3:14

And that's what's really gripping,

3:16

I think. Can they blow up and then get back from

3:19

it? Can they recover? All right. Coming

3:21

up, guys, we are going to learn how

3:23

anger could be a force for good. And

3:25

we're going to ask if

3:27

we're misusing the word trigger,

3:30

right? And also we're going to ask what happens when

3:32

birthday parties turn from domestic bliss

3:35

into a full on domestic. And of

3:37

course, you know, as always a warning, I mean,

3:40

content is often adult on this show, but Happy

3:43

Valley has got some pretty disturbing

3:46

elements to it. And we're not going to shy away from talking about

3:48

that. So you know, just be cautious when you're listening

3:50

or if you know, if there's young people around and whatnot.

3:53

And as ever, there's

3:55

going to be spoilers for season one only.

3:57

So guys, kick back, relax. And well,

4:00

Welcome to Shrink the Box.

4:05

So as I mentioned before, Happy Valley Season 1

4:09

aired for the first time in 2014, nearly ten

4:11

years ago. It's insane. So for those

4:14

who might need a little reminder, here's

4:16

a brief recap as I can master

4:18

this. We got Catherine Kewood, played

4:21

by Sarah Lancashire, who lives with her sister

4:23

Claire, Siobhan Finneran, and

4:25

her grandson Ryan, who she's

4:27

bringing up. That's Catherine's grandson. And

4:30

Catherine hears that this guy, Tommy

4:32

Lee Royce, who's played by James Norton, has

4:34

been released from prison. We see the reaction.

4:37

She becomes obsessed with finding Tommy. She's

4:39

unaware that he's involved in this kidnapping

4:42

of Anne Gallagher, who's the daughter of a local

4:44

wealthy businessman that she knows called Neveson Gallagher.

4:48

One big plot point from Season 1 that's

4:50

important is that Tommy runs

4:52

over and kills this young female

4:55

police officer called Kirsten.

4:57

And that hits Catherine real hard as well

5:00

on top of everything else because she

5:02

just told Kirsten to toughen

5:04

up the night before, you know, put your socks up kind of thing.

5:07

And another important point is that

5:09

despite Catherine's best efforts, Tommy

5:12

finds out that Ryan is

5:15

his son. Just huge. So

5:17

with all that in mind, how much she's

5:19

got going on, Sash,

5:22

can you tell us a bit

5:24

about your client?

5:25

She is a police sergeant, but

5:27

she did take a step down in order to bring

5:29

up her grandson, Ryan, who is eight in

5:32

this series. And she's bringing him up because

5:34

her daughter, Becky, Ryan's mum,

5:37

took her own life. As a result, we

5:39

think of being a drug addict having been

5:41

raped by Tommy Lee Royce. She's

5:44

also got an adult son called Daniel, who doesn't

5:47

speak to her or reluctantly

5:49

speaks to her when he has to. And

5:51

she's divorced because her husband,

5:53

Richard, didn't want to bring up

5:55

Ryan. He couldn't get beyond the thought

5:57

that it was Ryan's birth that caused

5:59

the death. of Becky. So

6:01

she lives with Ryan and her sister, Clem, who, to

6:04

add to the whole family saga, is a recovering

6:07

heroin addict.

6:08

It's unreal, isn't it? You

6:10

know, what she's got going on. You sort

6:13

of get the vibe from her. It's like, no one else can do

6:15

it. So I'll do it.

6:17

I think she's carrying a lot of guilt for

6:19

not being able to save Becky. And I

6:21

think anybody who loses somebody has carried

6:24

some guilt that they weren't able to sort of keep

6:26

them alive. That guilt is partly

6:28

what spurs her on to try and save other people, to

6:31

save Ryan, to save the people in the community,

6:33

all these other drug addicts that she's trying

6:35

to not see go down the same path.

6:39

But the other reason why I think she takes on so much

6:41

responsibility is because it helps her to

6:43

distract from that grief. If she keeps

6:45

going, if she keeps sort of like

6:47

having a purpose and being active, she doesn't

6:49

have to think about the pain of losing Becky. Why

6:53

is it that I often laugh

6:55

when I'm watching her just dress someone down, you

6:58

know, and I just like, she is the fucking

7:00

dawn. I warned her massively.

7:03

She's like an emotional island. You know,

7:05

she bats you away when you're trying to get close and

7:07

stuff like that. So why do I love her

7:09

so much?

7:10

Yeah, I mean, well, she just she takes no shit.

7:12

She just says it like it is. And she does

7:14

it with humor as well. And there

7:16

is kindness behind the aggression. I mean, even

7:19

you mentioned Kirsten and had the night before

7:21

Kirsten dies, she said you've got to toughen up.

7:24

And she did it out of sort of love

7:26

in a way because she doesn't want Kirsten

7:28

to be pushed around like she had been with

7:30

the previous US she'd made. So she's like, no,

7:33

don't let them treat you like this. So she's trying

7:35

to help. And she is wanting

7:37

to bring the best out of people, but she does it. It's

7:39

very tough

7:40

love. She's what they call in the way a good

7:42

police, because she's

7:45

still sort of you sense under everything.

7:49

She knows what the right thing to do. This is the

7:51

right thing to do. Yeah, right now.

7:53

So she's got all these these things going on

7:56

professionally, personally, what's the first thing you think

7:58

you'd address with with Catherine?

7:59

We really need to look at all this grief that

8:02

she's suppressing and all the associated

8:04

feelings because I think there is guilt

8:07

there which she doesn't want to look at I think

8:09

there's a lot of anger, but I think the

8:11

thing with grief as well that in the early

8:14

Months and even like the first year or two

8:16

people are very conscious of your grief and you're

8:18

and they're very kind of considerate Towards

8:20

you but after a few years go by

8:23

everybody including yourself sort of expects

8:25

you to be over it And of course the

8:27

truth is you never are over it you get better at managing

8:29

it and all her efforts

8:32

to keep busy To do the right thing by

8:34

Ryan It takes energy

8:36

to suppress all those feelings that are there

8:39

and I think that's partly why she seems so tired

8:41

all the time And the other thing I think with

8:43

grief is that it's not just the person

8:45

that you've lost There's a whole load of subsidiary losses

8:47

that come in the wake of it. I mean as a result

8:50

of her grief I mean, yes, she lost her

8:52

husband and she lost her son because

8:54

he stopped talking to her But she also

8:56

lost a part of herself She says this very explicitly

8:59

much later in the

8:59

series when Becky died I lost a part of

9:02

me and you do when you lose someone important

9:04

you can lose enthusiasm She

9:07

also lost her detective job, but she lost

9:09

her freedom I mean she just got rid of her kids

9:11

in the sense that they were old enough for her to think

9:13

oh I get my life back a bit, but no she's back

9:16

to looking after a young child She

9:17

should be winding down to retire And

9:20

he's a difficult child at that and I think

9:22

that's another thing She's suppressing all

9:24

those contradictory feelings how she feels

9:26

about Ryan

9:27

man I was just it's so mad as

9:29

you were talking I was thinking this is what I want to ask

9:31

you next because it's so dark

9:34

But

9:35

to raise this kid with the

9:37

natural maternal instinct that she's got the kindness

9:40

the desire for justice And

9:42

to do what's right.

9:43

How do you deal with

9:45

those? almost animalistic Instinctive

9:48

moments where this

9:50

boy that you're raising kind of as your son does

9:52

something that all kids do you know something?

9:55

selfish or whatever and just in a

9:57

flash you see the

10:00

abuser in his face, the

10:02

genetics, the father, this

10:05

murderous rapist, how

10:08

the holy fuck do

10:12

you not snap or

10:14

like freak out or run a mile?

10:18

She is battling to not do

10:20

that, but it does raise its head occasionally.

10:22

And as the series goes on, that becomes more

10:24

and more prominent and more and more overage.

10:27

But I think in the early episodes, it's

10:29

very covert and she's really trying not

10:31

to let that come into consciousness. One

10:34

of the reasons why Ryan does act out so

10:36

much, why she's endlessly being called into school

10:38

to talk to his teachers because of his bad behavior,

10:40

is I think he is picking up on that unconsciously.

10:43

And children do, I mean, unfortunately-

10:45

She's sponging, isn't she? Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say,

10:47

unfortunately or fortunately, they don't just

10:49

listen to what adults say, they

10:51

listen to what they're not saying. And I think

10:53

he can really tap into the fact

10:56

that she has complex feelings towards

10:58

him. And he's acting out her disowned

11:01

anger and concern about,

11:04

are you Becky's son or are you Tommy Lee Royce's

11:06

son?

11:07

It makes you angry at her, but

11:09

then you also think, well,

11:11

I don't know how I would react.

11:13

And Richard couldn't, Richard left. He

11:15

sort of foresaw it, right? Richard sort of was like,

11:18

think about it. Like, what are you gonna

11:20

do when he gets 18 and he

11:22

looks exactly like the young

11:24

Tommy Lee Royce? I mean, to

11:27

leave Catherine with that burden is

11:29

just, it's brutal.

11:31

In a way, one of the first times when

11:33

she has to go and see the teacher and the teacher's talking about

11:35

Ryan's problems and she says, oh, he needs

11:37

to learn coping strategies. And I think,

11:40

you know, she could almost be talking to Catherine

11:42

as well. She needs coping strategies for

11:44

her anger. And Tommy

11:47

Lee Royce, actually he's the cause of the problems, but

11:49

he's also the answer to the problems. Cause when he

11:51

comes out of prison, he becomes her coping

11:53

strategy. Cause suddenly she's got an external

11:55

focus. She can stop worrying

11:58

about the internal battle, about how,

11:59

how much of this was my fault, how much is he

12:02

and Ryan? It's like, oh, now I've got an external

12:05

object. I can project all of that anger,

12:07

all of that powerlessness. I can turn into

12:09

an empowerment of I'm gonna get him,

12:11

I'm gonna chase him. And she won't broach any other reading

12:14

of the subject. It's no, no, he raped her.

12:16

It wasn't a relationship. He's supplied her with the

12:18

drugs. He was the cause of her death.

12:21

In a way, Tommy's the answer to some

12:23

of her tiredness and her suppression.

12:26

Okay, so we've talked about the

12:28

different layers underneath this umbrella

12:31

of grief. And obviously one of the things is

12:33

rage, which, you know, it spills out of her

12:35

in different ways. Sometimes it's with really funny

12:37

put downs in a way, but she

12:40

never backs down,

12:41

essentially. Let's hear her in action.

12:46

And another one, bite.

12:50

Get out of your vehicle. Why? Get

12:53

out of your vehicle. What'd

12:58

you say? Nothing. No, I heard you said something I'd

13:00

like to repeat. I didn't mean anything, I was just

13:02

thinking. What were you singing? Nothing.

13:04

So you think it's funny? Yeah. Because I got the

13:06

distinct impression you thought it was funny. What do you mean?

13:09

So you think I'm stupid? No. I look stupid.

13:11

No. Like General. Why? General.

13:15

I haven't done anything. Yes, you have. like

13:17

to cause harassment, alarm or distress, contrary to section five of the public

13:19

order out, which is why you're under arrest. I was just thinking. You're

13:22

not obliged to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not

13:24

mention a blank question or something, you'd later enlighten

13:26

it. Oh, no, stop. Anything you

13:27

do, sin, they'll be given an evidence. Oh,

13:30

no, you can't do that. No CCTV

13:32

cameras in here, sunbeam, it's just your word against the sun. I'm

13:35

sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Never. Ever.

13:39

Mate, follow someone's death, you ignorant francid,

13:42

infinitesimal specter. Sorry.

13:49

Get out. I

13:52

can't, what are you gonna do now? I'm just de-arrested

13:54

yet. I'll make a note of the fact that

13:57

you're upon a jazz profusely. In

13:59

tears.

13:59

Man, now you go. She

14:03

knows what justice is, man. She knows. She

14:05

knows. That's from episode three

14:08

from season one of Happy Valley, created and written

14:10

by Sally Wainwright, starring Sarah

14:12

Lancashire as Catherine Keward and Adam

14:14

Nagaitis as Brett McKendrick. It's directed

14:16

by Iros Lynn, and we'll give you the full

14:18

credits, including the team of writers, for this

14:20

and all the clips used at the end of this podcast.

14:23

As well as having Tommy

14:25

back, she's also got this

14:27

awful situation where Kirsten, that

14:29

we've talked about, gets killed by Tommy. I don't think

14:32

originally she knows that it's by Tommy. But

14:34

the reason why she gets so angry

14:36

with that lad and does, you know, grab

14:39

him by the balls and bring him to tears is

14:41

because she's been quite

14:44

triggered by Kirsten's death. It really

14:46

reminds her of Becky's

14:48

death. Even though she'd said to Kirsten,

14:51

I'm not your mother, she actually was quite maternal

14:53

towards her, and she was sort

14:55

of treating her like a surrogate daughter. So it's

14:57

like she's lost Kirsten in the present,

15:00

and that has re-triggered all those memories

15:02

of losing Becky in the past.

15:04

We haven't really touched on

15:07

Tommy in full yet, right? But we're

15:09

going to do that. We're just going to take

15:11

a quick break, and after that, we're

15:13

going to hear whether psychopathic tendencies can

15:15

be inherited. We're going to hear the truth about triggers

15:18

and the birthday party that felt more like

15:21

a barroom brawl. So we'll see you after these

15:23

messages, unless, of course, you subscribe to

15:25

The Take in which case we'll see

15:27

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15:30

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17:55

Alright,

17:56

yep, it's us again. Sash, we hear

17:58

the phrase being triggered all the time.

17:59

In fact, my teenagers use it in a

18:02

fun way, pretty much every day. Gail's

18:05

had the wrong milk, it triggered me. What's

18:08

it really mean, in your opinion?

18:10

Yeah, I mean, it is one of those many

18:12

words that gets kind of like conscripted

18:16

into everyday parlance. But

18:18

really a trigger is when an old

18:21

trauma is reactivated and you start to

18:23

not be able to distinguish between past and present,

18:25

because when you're in a trauma response, that

18:28

gets very confused. So we see

18:30

very clearly when Kirsten is killed that Catherine

18:33

starts to get flashbacks of Becky dead. And

18:36

it's really distressing. I mean, as a viewer,

18:38

it's distressing to see how these visualizations

18:40

pop up in her mind. And in those

18:43

moments, she can't tell what is now

18:45

and what is then. So she

18:47

has been triggered back into a trauma response. And

18:50

what happens when you are in that

18:52

response is not only can you not distinguish past

18:54

and present, but you aren't

18:56

able to respond from a thinking place.

18:59

So you're responding from an emotional, what we call the

19:01

limbic system is taking over. Your nervous

19:03

system is causing you just to react

19:06

as though you're in survival, as though survival is

19:08

at stake, rather than being able

19:10

to rationally,

19:10

calmly think, okay,

19:13

this isn't how I need to deal with this.

19:15

And that's great in the short term, but

19:17

not in the long term. She doesn't want to be acting

19:20

as though she's still back in those early moments. It's

19:22

a physiological response and it's really hard to overcome.

19:25

But what is great about Catherine

19:27

is over the eight years of missing Becky, she's

19:29

learned quite a lot of coping strategies

19:32

actually. One of which, and the most

19:34

important actually when you are having

19:36

flashbacks is to turn

19:38

to your attachment figure. And we see it, she

19:40

goes home to Claire, she cries, she

19:43

says this was awful and Claire is able to

19:45

soothe her. She also phones Richard, he's

19:47

another secure attachment figure. So she turns

19:49

to another person to help calm the upset. There's

19:52

also more kind of physiologically calming

19:54

things you can do, which is really important because like

19:56

I said, it's a physiological response.

19:59

So she does her job.

19:59

deep breathing, she helps herself come

20:02

into the present by looking around. You can see

20:04

she looks back at the place where she's seen the

20:06

visualization of Becky and

20:08

she can kind of almost see her nose. Okay.

20:11

No, it's a locker and there's a wall and

20:13

there's a window. And that's something you can do. You can actually

20:15

start listing the things that you can see and

20:17

hear in the present. So your brain starts to catch

20:20

up. Okay. Now this, I'm in this moment

20:22

in this room. I'm not back seeing my dead

20:24

daughter. So another really good thing,

20:26

and she, which is again, she's been doing for the last eight

20:28

years is you can mobilize, you can take action.

20:31

So she's been going out to work and doing all

20:33

the stuff that she needs to do. So

20:35

taking action and empowering yourself.

20:37

She lets herself feel the feelings. You know, she's quite

20:40

good at crying. She lets it out that way. And

20:42

she looks after others. That's another way of kind

20:45

of, um,

20:46

coping when you are, you are triggered.

20:48

So she's, she's got all the techniques

20:50

and she's sort of flinging everything in there.

20:53

But sometimes you're so triggered.

20:56

The, the, the traumas are so huge that all the

20:58

coping strategies in the world are going

21:00

to run out eventually because

21:02

it's the intersection of how many coping

21:04

strategies, but also how many stresses and her

21:06

stresses keep on coming.

21:08

Ryan acts out more. He gets naughtier.

21:11

Tommy Lee Royce's mum first of all says,

21:13

Oh, I think that's my grandson. And then Tommy, his,

21:15

himself says, is that my son? She

21:18

is getting it from, from all sides.

21:21

Um, and the other thing that she's doing as well, of

21:23

course, in, in the, that will come under

21:25

the sort of the category of mobilization and taking

21:27

action is she just goes all out trying to catch

21:30

Tommy Lee Royce and she's using that anger

21:32

for really good purposes. She's

21:34

using it to re-energize herself, to

21:37

go, go and chase him. And anger can

21:39

be really productive and really

21:42

positive if you put it to good use.

21:44

If you use it to go and campaign or to even

21:47

that clip we heard at the beginning when she was telling Richard, write

21:49

an article about the drugs, do something makes

21:52

use your anger as an agent

21:53

for change. But anger can also be really

21:55

destructive as we know, which is why most people are really

21:58

frightened of anger because most people experience it.

21:59

it as something uncontrollable and

22:02

dangerous and destructive.

22:04

So, Tommy is such an extreme

22:07

trigger that she doesn't

22:10

use all the normal coping

22:12

strategies. It's like, it's too much. Yeah,

22:15

I think, yeah, it seems

22:17

so that she gets sort of overwhelmed. She's always

22:19

teetering on that edge. She's always sort of like battling.

22:22

And I think actually we had a clip as well of

22:24

her almost voicing

22:27

that battle between her heart and

22:29

her head between, oh, do I

22:31

let my anger just take me into like vengeful

22:34

destruction? Or do I try and

22:36

think, no, I'm a policewoman. I'm going to deal with this in

22:39

a kind of calm, controlled way. I'm

22:41

just wearing up the pros and cons

22:43

of what it would

22:44

mean to take the law into your own hands. Well,

22:47

the downside, obviously, would

22:50

be if you got caught. Possibly. I

22:54

don't know what the downside would be if you didn't feel

22:56

much different or better after you'd done the thing. I

22:59

wish why would you? I don't

23:01

like it to bring her back, is it? Don't

23:03

let yourself get obsessed with it. He's

23:06

low life. He's scum. You'll get

23:09

what's coming to him one day. The

23:11

upside on the other end of it. The

23:14

exquisite satisfaction you get from

23:18

grinding his severed scutum into the mud

23:20

with the underside of your shitty issue. And

23:23

then burying his worthless carcass in a shallow

23:25

grave up on the moorsrecht and rot, undisturbed

23:28

and unloved,

23:29

until the end of time. Sure

23:32

that would make me feel better. Just

23:35

a bit. But

23:39

nonetheless, Tommy is

23:41

still running riot. And

23:43

there's a point where Catherine rescues

23:46

Angalagar, gets badly beaten

23:48

up and hospitalized by

23:51

Tommy,

23:52

who escapes.

23:54

Catherine, understandably,

23:56

is an incredibly low point. Where

24:00

does she go from there? She can no longer

24:02

take action because she's done everything she can and they

24:04

still got away and she's now physically

24:06

immobile because of her injuries and

24:08

so she is forced to stay still

24:11

and face the feelings. And

24:13

there's this really sad image

24:15

of her one day sitting up on the moor in

24:17

the rain just sort of crying and it just

24:20

sort of visually depicts how isolated

24:23

and alone and vulnerable she

24:26

is I think. But she won't let anyone help. She's

24:28

turning away from her attachment figure. She doesn't want

24:30

them to help because it's almost like it's just too

24:32

much because what if they go?

24:33

Dangerous to push them aside. There's

24:36

a scene right at the end of season

24:38

two and this won't spoil anything for any it's like

24:40

a sort of vignette almost. There's

24:43

like a happy ending kind of thing. They're walking through like

24:45

a field and Ryan's asking

24:47

if he can get a dog and all the dogs he's listing

24:50

of these fancy dogs could

24:52

be described as dangerous dogs if

24:54

raised a certain way I might add. And

24:56

you can see it prickling just the tiniest

24:59

bit on Catherine even though they're having a fun jolly

25:01

conversation then he runs off ahead. He's got a big

25:03

stick in his hand and he just starts

25:05

whacking the heads of flowers

25:08

that kind of thing.

25:09

And we rest on Catherine and

25:12

she's just looking at this kid and the look in her

25:14

eyes is saying he's got a weapon. He's

25:18

he's breeding dangerous dogs. He

25:21

could be the next killer. You

25:23

know it's just it's all in her eyes. It's hard to describe

25:25

it's like incredibly lovely and

25:27

warm scene with this chilling element.

25:30

And is that human nature to think

25:32

this kid's parent was a psychopath.

25:35

Therefore

25:36

he's going to be a psychopath. Or is

25:38

there something genetic going on that is

25:40

unavoidable?

25:41

I think that Catherine

25:43

is constantly

25:46

wondering

25:47

will he turn out like his dad

25:50

which is basically a kind of very personalized

25:53

version of the nature nurture debate.

25:56

And I think at the beginning she's really

25:59

not allowed to. allowing herself to go there. But

26:02

then as her mental state

26:04

deteriorates and as his

26:07

behavior gets worse and worse, and as she's

26:09

confronted more and more visibly with Tommy

26:11

Lee Royce's violence, that

26:13

connection is coming stronger and stronger.

26:15

And she can't stop herself thinking, he's

26:18

his son, it's his genetic inheritance,

26:20

he's gonna turn out to be a little bastard, a

26:22

violent little bastard. And of course that

26:25

fuels her dislike

26:27

of Ryan and she gets more and more

26:29

kind of vocal

26:29

about her dislike of him. So

26:32

Richard actually kind of has

26:34

to bring her back to reality that no, it's

26:37

not nature, it's nurture. So let's

26:39

hear him explain it better than I

26:41

could.

26:42

I thought he said he was dyslexic. He's tough. Catherine,

26:45

if he's dyslexic, you will get angry and frustrated.

26:47

It doesn't mean he's

26:49

like his dad. Yeah, like. What,

26:52

but what? Bound to be at some level, he's just

26:54

bound to be, isn't he? Tommy

26:58

Lee Royce. I

27:01

don't even think he's a psychopath, but

27:03

a real one. I

27:05

think he is this little twisted

27:07

thing who grew up unloved. More

27:10

than unloved, despised probably. Treat it like

27:13

dirt on a daily basis in squalor and chaos.

27:16

Ryan is loved,

27:18

cared for. He has not grown up in either

27:20

squalor or chaos thanks to you. There's

27:24

a massive, massive difference, and

27:26

yeah, part of him will always inevitably

27:29

be Tommy Lee bloody Royce, but part of him will

27:31

always be Becky. And a bigger part

27:33

of him will be you. And Claire,

27:36

because you're the people who've had the most influence

27:38

on him.

27:39

And I understand it's tough from time to time, but

27:42

kids are a nightmare. All

27:44

kids, any kids, they all have their moments.

27:47

You know this. Blimey, Becky,

27:49

she used to do it. The

27:52

conversations that we have every day

27:54

as human beings somewhere down the line,

27:57

whether it's at home or in the pub or

27:59

wherever.

28:00

Everybody has this thought and this conversation

28:03

of nature versus nurture at some point. And

28:05

we all think about our parents

28:07

and our grandparents and our kids

28:09

and chains and patterns and all

28:12

of these things.

28:13

And I think we probably all have little prejudices as well. Like,

28:16

oh, well, you know what his dad was like. You know, we probably

28:18

have those unspoken biases too, but

28:20

you can't ignore the facts that Richard

28:22

is putting in front of her.

28:23

Yeah, and I mean, the genetic inheritance

28:26

is only as strong as

28:29

how it's kind of like nurtured. You

28:31

can have seeds planted, but if you don't water

28:33

them or tend to them, they're not gonna grow.

28:36

So everyone has the possibility to

28:38

kind of grow into the genes

28:41

they've got. But also if you're nurtured and

28:43

tended in a different way, you're gonna grow

28:45

up in a completely different way. Tommy Lee Royce would

28:47

never have become Tommy Lee Royce if his caregivers

28:50

had

28:50

given him some sort of sense of self-worth.

28:54

Ryan, it's a completely different situation.

28:56

He's grown up being loved and cared for. And so

28:58

he's, why would he become violent?

29:01

It's not something that you're necessarily gonna become

29:03

just cause you're somebody else in your family

29:05

had that.

29:06

The fear is irrational, ultimately

29:08

is what you're saying. Can one overcome

29:11

profound trauma like that? And is

29:14

it easier or harder if you're approaching 60

29:17

or in your 60s? Well, it's all

29:19

to do with a combination

29:22

of things. So it's about how many

29:24

different things have happened, that accumulation

29:27

of experiences and

29:29

how you are able to deal with

29:31

them, both how you were helped to deal with them then

29:33

and how you're helped to deal with them now.

29:36

And we can kind of see that Catherine

29:38

does have all those techniques and she always

29:41

knows that she's loved. There were times when

29:43

the trauma has overwhelmed her, but because

29:46

there is a love there and there is a kind

29:48

of a resilience there, she is able to like

29:50

claw her way back to it, maybe not in the moment,

29:53

but she has the memory and

29:55

the knowledge and the resilience of,

29:57

okay, I have got myself back from this

29:59

in the past. and there are people here to

30:01

help me to do that. I mean, even when she's like foul

30:04

to Ryan and to Claire

30:06

and kind of basically tells them both to leave

30:08

the house and Ryan is like, what's going

30:11

on? And Claire says, we've got to be kind

30:13

to granny. She's not very well.

30:15

And you know, like she's kind to us. So

30:18

Claire, even though Catherine's been a complete bitch and

30:20

told her basically to leave the house and she's

30:22

useless, Claire

30:24

has got the bigger picture. She can say, no,

30:26

she's going through something and we're still gonna be there

30:29

for her. And

30:29

Catherine, when she comes out of it, she

30:32

can see, yeah, no, Claire was there and she was solid

30:34

and she wasn't gonna leave me just cause I acted

30:37

out. Just as Catherine isn't gonna leave Ryan just

30:39

cause he's acting out.

30:40

And there's something actually in therapy that we call rupture

30:43

and repair, which is I think I might've mentioned

30:45

this before where it's not the rupture in

30:47

the relationship that's the problem, it's how you

30:49

repair it. So if a client gets really angry

30:51

with you and you are able to

30:54

hold that anger and not either

30:56

retaliate or collapse in the face of it,

30:58

then they know it's okay to get angry.

31:01

Conflict doesn't have to destroy you.

31:03

Yes, I think you did mention this. It's

31:05

really interesting that concept of

31:08

like sort of being the sponge and soaking

31:10

it up and showing the person

31:12

that it's not necessarily the

31:15

end of the world.

31:15

And I think that with all the

31:17

blowups that are going on, all the sort of

31:19

like little explosions that she's creating

31:22

or have been created for her in all her relationships,

31:25

the fact that they are allowed to sort of burn

31:27

out and then that they can come back together and say,

31:30

yeah,

31:30

let's be a family again. It's like she's brought

31:32

back in all the bits of herself that she disowned,

31:35

the angry bit, the guilty bit, the

31:37

sad bit, and she's like, okay, no, they're all part of me,

31:39

I can admit to them now. So as she reintegrates

31:41

those parts of herself, she can reintegrate her

31:43

family members as well. So there's

31:46

a coming back together with her internal self

31:49

and the external relationships as well.

31:51

It's an incredibly hard and mature

31:54

skill to develop to win,

31:56

or to utilize

31:58

when you're at the sharp end of a.

31:59

confrontation. Your body

32:02

sort of starts to betray you. Do

32:04

you know what I mean? And then you don't say

32:07

the right thing or you can't even speak or you explode

32:09

in a way that is,

32:10

quotes,

32:14

unquote, not you. They

32:16

can't stop it in the moment, but what they can do is stop

32:18

and reflect afterwards and look back and they

32:20

can say, okay, this is what was happening

32:23

and this is why I needed to say it and this

32:25

is why you needed to hear it. It's restorative.

32:28

Before restoration, there

32:31

clearly comes provocation, confrontation,

32:36

and we see it all hang out in

32:38

the birthday party from hell. Kathy

32:44

doesn't even want this birthday party as Claire's

32:47

very misguided attempt to

32:49

rouse her from this sort of state of

32:51

depression and despair that she's got herself

32:54

into. But

32:55

what happens is

32:58

that Daniel, I think, gets

33:00

particularly drunk and all

33:02

his old grievances come out because we

33:05

haven't spoken much about Daniel, but he's

33:07

a great character. He is and

33:09

he's been a bit marginalized

33:11

in the show as he is sort of marginalized in the

33:14

family and as he expresses in his sort

33:16

of drunken fury, all the attention

33:18

was on Becky and he felt that

33:21

he was the good boy. He

33:23

didn't misbehave. He did well at school and

33:25

he was ignored and Becky with her drug

33:27

addiction and her pregnancy

33:29

and then her suicide took

33:32

all the energy and attention and he

33:34

has spent eight years, obviously grieving

33:36

her as well, but also just feeling

33:38

the injustice of, well, I've

33:41

lost my mum as well. We talked about all

33:43

of Catherine's subsidiary losses, but

33:45

he didn't just lose his sister. He lost his mum

33:47

because she was kind of lost in her grief

33:50

and her distraction and

33:52

he lost

33:53

his family because his parents split up because

33:55

of it. So they have this huge blow up, but

33:57

what can happen if you have a huge blow up? You do

33:59

clear the air.

33:59

So it's actually it could be a positive

34:02

thing to just shout it out, let it all

34:04

out. Yeah, I mean, well, ideally, you'd wish

34:06

that they had discussed it before it got to the point

34:09

of that, but clearly they haven't. So

34:11

it had to come out somehow.

34:13

In another family, that could be the end. That could be

34:16

like, right, well, that's it. You know, how dare you say

34:18

those things, we're never going to talk again. But in this

34:20

family, because they basically are very

34:22

loving and quite emotionally mature,

34:25

they are able to say, okay, I

34:27

heard you, let's talk about this. And

34:29

they have that very poignant scene where they go and meet in a cafe

34:32

and he's able to say, this is how I

34:34

felt. And she's able to say, I'm sorry.

34:37

And by bringing him sort of back into

34:39

the family, he's able to then take Ryan

34:42

into the family. And they do

34:43

become a family where they've all been these very separate

34:46

people all kind of holding their own grievances.

34:48

Yeah, tricky in the way that you can't compete

34:51

with a dead person. You can't speak

34:53

ill of the dead. So it's like, yeah,

34:55

they become idealized a little

34:58

bit.

34:58

Splitting happens, they become

35:00

all good. And then the other people become all bad.

35:03

And you can't see anybody as they

35:05

really were with all their faults and

35:08

failings and inadequacies. And

35:10

I think that Daniel's really wanting to remind

35:12

Catherine that you know, Beck

35:15

did have problems as well. And she

35:17

wasn't all good. And Richard did as well.

35:19

In fact, we heard it in that clip earlier when

35:21

he started to say, Oh, remember Becky? And she's

35:23

like, Nope, can't hear it. If she

35:25

thinks that there was something wrong with Becky,

35:28

then

35:28

what does that make her? Does that make her

35:30

a bad parent? That's actually one of the huge blow

35:32

ups with Ryan because the teacher

35:35

calls her in again to talk about his behavior.

35:38

And she starts having to go, Ryan is saying,

35:40

I'm not a rubbish parent. And of course, what she's

35:42

really saying is I'm not wasn't a rubbish parent

35:44

to Becky. So he's really kind of

35:46

re triggering all those old feelings of

35:49

what was it me, which is why Tommy

35:51

was so useful to her because it's like, no, he's

35:53

the guilty one. It wasn't me.

35:54

Yeah. And then on top of that, she's got

35:57

all these conflicts, which we've already referenced.

36:00

you know, with herself and with others. And

36:02

then, of course, there's the very real, very physical

36:05

conflict that is developing with Tommy,

36:08

who, you know, he's already beaten her to a pulp. She's

36:10

back now, you know,

36:13

she's chasing him

36:14

cat and mouse. And we hit reach

36:16

this crescendo where she chases him down to this canal

36:19

boat. I

36:19

think he had Ryan on it, letting him drink beer

36:22

and all this stuff.

36:22

And I think the sort of the physical fight

36:25

that ensues is also a

36:27

battle of her inner conflict, that thing

36:29

of head and heart. Do I let my

36:32

destructive anger rip? Do

36:34

I kill this guy or let him kill himself?

36:37

Or do I allow my head to take control

36:39

and say, no, I'm not going to kill him?

36:41

She kind of does both. Well,

36:43

she does. I mean, it is there is an awful

36:46

sense of satisfaction when you see her give him a really

36:48

good chicken. Kicks a mass. Like, not

36:50

just figuratively. Yeah. When you think

36:52

about over the course of the three series, she's like

36:55

physically quite strong. She

36:57

does stop quite a few blows. She

36:58

does. But she does stop short

37:00

of killing him or letting him kill

37:03

himself. And I think in saving him, she

37:05

saves herself.

37:06

One more kick. And who's

37:08

the monster that she's scared of? Yeah, right.

37:11

Becoming a monster, I mean, like Ryan, really?

37:14

Or is it you? Do you know what I mean? Exactly. She's

37:16

sort of a hero to her own villain

37:18

there.

37:18

Yeah. And it's fascinating to see it kind

37:20

of played out in real time, really, which angle

37:23

is going to win the destructive one or the productive

37:25

one who then gets him put away again.

37:27

How do we find a new equilibrium

37:31

as human beings, having

37:33

soaked up all this trauma? We've talked about

37:36

that restorative process and talking

37:38

things out with secure attachment

37:41

figures. Is there more that we

37:43

can do?

37:44

Whatever kind of breakdown happens.

37:47

It's a way of like strengthening the muscle

37:49

of getting back from that again as well. We

37:51

know we've survived it in the past. We know what we

37:53

did. We know we can come back from it.

37:56

Did you just say what don't kill your make

37:58

you strong? Well, that's what. sound like

38:00

to me. And I like that. Well,

38:03

yes, sort of. I mean, the actual phrase

38:05

can be really annoying to a lot of people because

38:07

it's like, yeah, but I really did it

38:09

really need to be that painful. But yeah,

38:12

you need to have people that you can turn to you

38:14

need to understand physiologically when

38:16

you've tipped over into that, you know,

38:18

react mode when you need

38:21

to kind of calm yourself physiologically

38:23

you need to know what steps you can take.

38:25

You know, as I am endlessly saying we're works in progress

38:28

and there's always going to be another crisis. Grief

38:30

doesn't go away hasn't gone away for her

38:32

over eight years. But

38:34

the bits that she suppressed were causing

38:37

problems in her life as we can see with

38:39

her relationship with Ryan and where her overly

38:41

caretaking techniques and

38:43

that that kind of slight brittleness. But

38:46

as soon as she started letting them out as soon

38:48

as she started acknowledging the grief and the anger

38:52

and the pain, then she was sort

38:54

of able to manage

38:56

them better. So your grief doesn't get any smaller,

38:58

but you get bigger around it.

39:00

Thank you, Sash. And thank you, everybody

39:04

out there for your emails this

39:06

week. We love getting them every week. It's

39:08

just a bit of a highlight

39:09

of my week to be honest. Get them into

39:11

shrinktheboxatsonymusic.com.

39:14

That's shrinktheboxatsonymusic.com.

39:18

This one's from Evelina. I hope I'm saying

39:20

your name right, Evelina. Hello, Ben

39:22

and Sasha. Absolutely love your podcast.

39:24

Thank you. Thanks for doing what you do and for being so

39:26

honest and sincere about your own experiences on the pod.

39:29

I was wondering if you would consider doing an episode

39:31

on Camille from Sharp Objects. Oh,

39:34

I've read the book. Sharp Objects. It's Gillian

39:36

Flynn. Yes, I've

39:38

read the book

39:39

as well. She

39:41

likes self-harm. Yes. Yeah,

39:43

the series in the book says Evelina, I suppose

39:46

will come with a few trigger warnings relevant

39:48

to the show we've just done. Camille is quite

39:51

emotionally disturbed and we found out why slowly

39:53

through the series. There's also a lot to cover

39:56

on Camille's younger sister, Amma.

39:58

Don't

39:58

want to spoil anything in case you haven't seen the series and

40:00

want to see it for yourselves. Oh, thanks, Evelina. It's very kind

40:03

because I think I've forgotten a lot of the book. I

40:05

remember enjoying it. Yeah, same here.

40:07

Thank you again for all your work. Best wishes, Evelina. Who's a

40:09

trainee? CBT therapist,

40:13

cognitive behavioral therapy.

40:15

It's like therapy with homework. That's what I remember

40:20

about it. Who's this one?

40:22

This is from Lee Webb, pediatric

40:24

advanced nurse practitioner from Swansea.

40:28

Hey, BBS and SB love the podcast.

40:30

Had to skip a couple of episodes so I can add the series

40:32

to my streaming services. That's a good shout, actually.

40:35

Like, if you see it and you think that sounds

40:37

great, just skip the show. There's

40:39

plenty more that you can dig into and then come

40:41

back to it once you watch it. It's probably even more

40:45

enjoyable.

40:45

He says he's also really enjoying

40:47

applying the same analysis to his own life. He

40:50

says in the Geller episode,

40:53

Sasha says it's Monica's defense mechanism.

40:56

We all have one. And off I went thinking

40:58

about that. In the Wonder episode, Sasha

41:00

describes the grief process as nonlinear.

41:03

As a healthcare professional, it made me think I should

41:05

probably be more prescient when thinking

41:07

about grief because it comes up on a regular basis.

41:10

Luckily, most of my patients are unlikely

41:12

to hex an entire town to try and

41:14

recreate the life they're missing. I have so

41:16

many characters I'd love to see on the couch. It's heavily

41:18

marked by recent viewing. Cassian Andor,

41:21

one of the best series on TV

41:24

in recent years. Oliver Queen from

41:27

Arrow. I think that is that a superhero

41:30

thing? I'm not sure. The transition from rich party

41:32

boy to vigilante via the Russian mafia

41:34

scream cycle analysis. Okay. And

41:37

finally, Alina Starkov from Shadow

41:39

and Bone. Just brilliant. This guy is just on a whole

41:42

different planet. I've not seen, I haven't even seen Andor and

41:44

I'm in that. So I haven't seen any of these

41:46

things. But anyway, he says, can't wait for

41:48

more episodes. Love you guys. Oh, thanks, Lee. We

41:50

love you too. Guys, please do

41:52

follow us on Apple podcasts or Spotify, Stitcher,

41:54

Amazon music, wherever you get your podcasts

41:57

normally and you can get more STB

41:59

to tell your friends about,

42:01

you know, because that's the way we're going to make

42:03

more and more shows. Word of mouth. And

42:06

if you want to listen to Shrink the Box and Kermode and Mayo's

42:08

take ad-free,

42:10

plus extra exclusive episodes, subscribe to Extra

42:12

Takes. Start your free trial now by

42:14

clicking Try Free at the top of the Shrink

42:16

the Box show page on Apple Podcasts or by

42:18

visiting extratakes.com.

42:21

Thank you to our production team. Production

42:23

management is Lily Hambly, the assistant producer

42:25

is Basak Ertan, social media is Jonathan

42:27

Imieri, the studio engineer is Gully Tickle

42:30

and the mix engineer is John Scott. Senior producer

42:33

is Selena Ream and executive producer is Simon

42:35

Poole. And Shrink the Box is a

42:37

Sony Music Entertainment production.

42:40

So,

42:40

little drum roll moment. Sasha,

42:44

who have we got booked in for next week? We

42:46

have got somebody who is, almost

42:48

defines the word neurotic. I

42:51

mean, he's reacts with anxiety, he catastrophizes,

42:55

he's prone to bursts

42:57

of uncontrollable rage

42:59

interspersed with kind of terrible

43:02

insecurity. And it's the

43:04

lovely George Costanza from Seinfeld.

43:06

What? What a character. Let's

43:08

have a quick listen. You're giving me

43:11

the it's not you, it's me routine? I

43:14

invented it's not you, it's me. Nobody

43:18

tells me it's them, not me. If it's anybody,

43:20

it's me. All right, George,

43:22

it's you. You're damn right, it's me.

43:24

Look, I was just trying

43:27

to, you know. I know what you were trying to do. Nobody

43:29

does it better than me. George

43:32

Costanza in Seinfeld.

43:34

I mean, he's no Tommy Lee Royce, but he

43:36

is directly responsible for at least one

43:38

death and many physical

43:40

injuries. He's lazy,

43:43

he's self-obsessed, he's cheap.

43:46

I mean, he is such a skinflint.

43:48

He even says I'm disturbed, I'm depressed,

43:50

I'm inadequate. I got it all. I

43:53

mean, what is so great about

43:55

it is they say it's a show about nothing, but

43:57

it is about everything because it is about those little

43:59

things. things that we all do. I mean, most of

44:01

us aren't out chasing criminals

44:03

or doing drug deals or swimming out on yachts

44:06

and helicopters, but we are wondering what to take

44:08

to a dinner party or doing the laundry

44:11

or worrying about, you know, shall I buy that

44:13

new jacket? All the things that this is what they talk

44:15

about. And so it's so relatable,

44:18

but they kind of get a whole world of indecision

44:21

and angst and social niceties

44:24

all in those tiny little moments.

44:27

It

44:27

can get under your skin in that regard,

44:30

the way you relate, you know, you see yourself,

44:33

you see human, everyday human behavior in there.

44:35

You do. And also I think you see that

44:37

kind of intersection between the

44:40

individual and society. I mean, it came in

44:42

the early 90s, just out of the

44:44

decade of greed is good and Thatcherite

44:47

knows such thing as a society. And we see the

44:49

result of those sort of messages that

44:52

people then think, oh, well, it's okay to just

44:54

completely think about me. And we kind of see

44:56

that that is not the answer. And we see

44:59

the kind of like the misery and the emptiness

45:01

of their lives by thinking that that is

45:03

actually how you can live,

45:05

separate from other people and just doing

45:07

what you want to do all the time. Absolutely.

45:10

And the fact that we say it's a show about

45:12

nothing puts us in quite a weird position,

45:14

doesn't it? Because most of the time we do series

45:16

one, because everything we're analyzing,

45:19

even friends to some extent has

45:22

progress. You know, it's got a beginning, a

45:24

middle and an end. Seinfeld.

45:26

I mean, I watch episodes from

45:29

any season at any given time.

45:31

There's randomly, I just pick them

45:33

like, you know, popcorn

45:35

or like Russian roulette. I don't

45:37

know. So what, how are

45:40

we going to do this? What episodes are we going to cover?

45:41

You could almost like dip into any episode

45:44

and know what was going on. So I would say, let's

45:46

just see which episodes we like and

45:48

kind of see it as an example of what George can

45:51

do at any one time. It's going to

45:52

be kind of like George's greatest hits. George's greatest

45:55

hits. Yes. We're going to

45:57

be doing a top 10, maybe

45:59

Top 15, we could do so many episodes

46:02

of peak Costanza. So

46:04

don't say we don't give you nothing,

46:07

listener. That is luxury platinum

46:09

standard shrink the box right there.

46:12

I'm actually really excited. Me too. So this

46:14

time next week? Yeah, see you then. Let's do

46:16

it.

46:25

All

46:25

right, now it's time to credit the magnificent

46:28

Happy Valley created and written by Sally

46:30

Wainwright. When Catherine K. Woods,

46:33

Sarah Lancashire tells her husband Richard, Derek

46:35

Riddell, what article to write. And

46:38

when she asked him what it would be like to take the

46:40

law into her own hands. They are both

46:42

from episode one directed by Iros

46:45

Lin.

46:46

And when Catherine says she's had it with Ryan

46:48

to Richard, that's episode five, directed

46:50

by Tim Firewell. Happy Valley

46:52

was made by Red Production Company and distributed

46:55

by the BBC. It's available to watch on the

46:57

BBC iPlayer or on Netflix in America.

46:59

Go to just watch.com for

47:01

further ways to view it.

47:03

Thanks for listening, guys, and see you next week.