0:03

Wow. Paisley and pink.

0:05

Was there something wrong with the fishnet tank top? Obviously

0:08

not. I'm wearing it underneath. I'm kidding. Just

0:10

chill, please. I'm sorry. I just

0:12

want to make a good first impression. You mean you want to fit

0:14

in and not terrify the villagers? Hey, come on. Today

0:17

is about Lily, all right?

0:19

Her future best friend might be in that class, and

0:21

I don't want to rub anyone the wrong way. Can you please just

0:23

change your shirt? Change

0:26

my

0:26

shirt? Fine. You know what? I'll just go put on a pair of khakis,

0:29

maybe a polo shirt, and everybody will think we're a couple

0:31

straight golfing buddies who just decided to have a kid together.

0:38

Hey, it's Ben Bailey-Smith here. And

0:40

Sasha Bates. And get your massive

0:43

shirt cuffs ready, because this is the podcast

0:45

where we put your favorite fictional characters into therapy.

0:48

Sasha tries to piece together what might happen

0:50

in their life thus far, and with that in mind,

0:53

Sasha,

0:54

welcome back once more for another week. And

0:56

tell us about this incredible couple. Oh,

0:59

yeah, that was Cam and Mitch, one of the

1:01

couples from the brilliant comedy Modern Family.

1:04

And you can hear just how different they are. I mean, Cam

1:06

is so full on and over the top,

1:09

both in his clothing choices and

1:11

sort of everything else about him is over

1:13

the top and loud and out there and

1:15

huge. And Mitch, his

1:18

partner, is endlessly trying to kind

1:20

of calm him down. And yeah, they've just adopted

1:22

Lily, their little baby daughter from Vietnam.

1:25

So they are very different. And

1:27

it's really interesting to look at how a relationship

1:29

can work when they're so different.

1:31

This is a series

1:33

that I loved straight away. It

1:35

was my elder daughter who got me into

1:37

it. It's quickly become

1:39

a bit like when we were talking about Seinfeld the other

1:41

week, you know, one of those shows you can sort of put

1:44

on any time. And I

1:46

guess the big difference is it has this huge

1:49

heart, right? You get to a point at the end

1:51

where it kind of wraps things

1:53

up in that traditional, almost like 1950s

1:55

American TV way of going, hey,

1:58

you know, at the end of the day.

1:59

We all love each other and

2:02

yet I don't hate it. It feels like a shot

2:05

in the arm that you need in a cynical

2:07

world. And I think obviously

2:10

the way that they get away with it is because

2:13

it is extremely funny, extremely

2:16

regularly. It's very, very consistent.

2:19

I think the only thing that maybe doesn't work

2:21

for me is the sort of mockumentary.

2:24

It feels strangely dated, like as

2:26

if they thought, well, the office really works. So let's

2:28

do that. It doesn't really need it. I'm basically,

2:30

I'm glad you've chosen Mitch and

2:32

Cam because they are probably the

2:34

two characters that make me

2:36

snort with laughter the most.

2:39

The combination of them, I just find

2:42

hilarious. I know about you. Yeah,

2:45

I mean, I love them. I think they're great. And it's

2:47

so great to have a gay couple

2:49

sort of center stage and for that not to be a real issue.

2:52

I mean, it comes up and they do talk about

2:54

it, but it's not like full of angst

2:57

or worry. No,

2:58

they sort of use the dad, don't they? You use Mitchell's

3:00

dad as the sort of, oh, God,

3:02

gay people doing gay things. He's

3:05

like the voice of old America in a

3:07

way.

3:07

He is. And I think they are just such

3:10

a celebratory couple and especially

3:12

with adopting Lily and seeing

3:14

how that changes their relationship. It's brilliant.

3:16

But I actually like the mockumentary bits. Oh,

3:19

really?

3:19

Okay. I mean, I don't not like

3:21

them. The interviews, I'm just saying it

3:23

would still be great without them, I guess, is

3:25

what I'm saying.

3:26

It would. Although I wonder whether

3:29

the reason it doesn't become all sort of schmaltzy

3:31

and we all love each other and why it isn't irritating

3:33

is because in those interviews, they are sort

3:35

of like giving little side long losses.

3:38

Okay. I love how it depicts all

3:40

these different types of family. Obviously the gay

3:42

family, the blended family with

3:44

Jay, the dad, marrying a much younger

3:47

woman from a different culture and

3:49

having to sort of deal with a stepson. And

3:51

then the more traditional one with Claire

3:54

and Phil.

3:55

Yeah, that's a great point, actually.

3:57

They give you lots of different examples of what

3:59

a family can do.

3:59

look like. And if this was poorly

4:02

written, it would feel probably

4:04

really woke. And people would be like, oh, right,

4:06

so there's a gay couple starring here. And they've

4:09

got a Vietnamese daughter. Oh,

4:11

wow. This is just like liberal heaven.

4:13

But actually,

4:15

what you see is a lot of misplaced

4:18

prejudice and even like borderline racism

4:20

from Cam and Mitch around having

4:23

a Vietnamese kid. They don't really know

4:25

how to deal with it, which I think is way

4:27

more truthful and a bit braver than

4:29

having like, oh, they're a gay couple. And they're

4:32

so woke that they've got a Vietnamese kid.

4:34

They make a lot of mistakes around

4:36

being white people adopting a child of

4:38

color, which I think is kind of a brave thing

4:41

to put in a family show.

4:43

And they all make loads of mistakes. And I think that's

4:45

what's really sweet. We watch them having

4:47

to kind of like row back and kind of having

4:49

to forgive each other and having to like learn

4:52

to cope with each other's clumsy behavior.

4:54

Yeah, coming up, then we're going to ask what

4:56

makes you a feeler or a dealer. And we're

4:58

also going to explore why Mitch is so desperate

5:01

to fit in and why Cam cries on a

5:03

whim. Whilst the show we're discussing is

5:05

actually as we've established pretty wholesome

5:08

and sweet. We do describe

5:11

issues in an adult way. And I am prone

5:13

to a naughty word or two as I'm sure

5:15

you know, so please accept this warm

5:17

family hug of a language

5:20

warning. And most of all, welcome

5:23

to shrink the box.

5:28

Okay, not a massive recap needed

5:30

here, thankfully. But for those of you who

5:33

need a little reminder about modern family,

5:35

here we go. It features three different

5:38

types of families nuclear, blended and same

5:40

sex as Sasha mentioned earlier, and they

5:42

all live in the Los Angeles area. And

5:45

they're all related through this wealthy

5:47

business owner named Jay Pritchett

5:50

and his children, daughter Claire and

5:53

son Mitchell. The family we're interested

5:55

in today is Jay's lawyer,

5:58

son

5:58

Mitchell and his husband Cameron.

5:59

Tucker, who've adopted this

6:02

Vietnamese daughter, Lily Tucker

6:04

Pritchett. And each episode is pretty much self-contained.

6:07

You don't really have follow on very much. And

6:09

everything's kind of based on real life situations

6:12

that families might encounter on

6:14

a daily basis, albeit

6:16

comically exaggerated. Sasha,

6:20

introduce us to your

6:22

double couches this week, Mitch and

6:24

Cam. Cameron was born

6:27

and grew up on a farm in Missouri with three

6:29

human siblings and an

6:31

awful lot of non-human siblings. He

6:34

does refer to the farm's livestock as his

6:36

brothers and sisters occasionally. But he's

6:38

also very kind of campy

6:41

and bit of a drama queen. Jazz hands. Yeah,

6:43

he's very jazz hands. And so he

6:45

was a music teacher before adopting Lily, but

6:48

is now a stay-at-home dad. But he

6:50

also dabbles in music and theater

6:52

and sports. He's quite well-rounded

6:55

in all senses.

6:55

Mitch

6:57

was born in Sacramento. He's got an older

7:00

sister, Claire. And his

7:02

family is way more present in the show

7:04

than Cam's because he still lives close

7:06

to Claire and her family and to his dad,

7:08

Jay. His step-mother, Gloria,

7:11

and step-brother, Manny, who's only 10. And

7:13

then we also occasionally see his mum, Dee Dee.

7:16

She comes to visit. She's also rather problematic. And

7:19

yeah, when we start the series, Cam and Mitch have been together

7:21

for five years and have just adopted Lily.

7:23

And early presentations

7:25

of them both, what do you think? Just looking

7:27

at them visually. I mean, Cam is larger

7:30

than life, both in terms of his physicality.

7:33

And he kind of makes himself larger. His arms are always out.

7:35

He's always kind of like filling the room. He takes up

7:37

a lot of space. And in contrast, Mitch kind of makes

7:40

himself very small. It's quite

7:42

interesting just physically seeing Mitch sort of

7:44

almost as the opposite. He almost shrinks into himself. So

7:48

I think one of them is used

7:51

to being approved of and approves of himself and

7:53

thinks, yeah, look at me. I'm here. You can't ignore me.

7:56

And

7:56

I think the other one possibly is more used to

7:59

disapproval.

7:59

and wanting to be a bit smaller and

8:02

a bit more invisible and flying

8:04

under the radar. That instinct

8:07

in Mitch, who clearly is the smaller,

8:09

quieter, folded in one, means

8:11

that he doesn't really want conflict. He just wants to

8:13

stay quiet. He wants to keep everything nice, whereas

8:15

Cam just will run into

8:18

any sort of situation. And the jobs

8:20

reflect that. Like I said, Cam, he's

8:22

into music, he's into sports, he's into

8:24

just everyone look at me. And

8:26

Mitch is a lawyer. And I think lawyers sometimes

8:29

can

8:29

go into law because it's very controlled.

8:32

And if they do have to

8:33

have a conflict, they can do it through the

8:36

kind of the prism of the rules

8:38

and the boundaries and the paperwork. And you

8:40

can distance yourself. And

8:43

I mean, I think one of the very early scenes,

8:45

you kind of see that difference in how

8:47

they handle conflict and how they handle

8:49

their family. Because when they bring Lily back

8:52

from Vietnam initially, Mitch

8:54

has been too scared to even tell his family that they're

8:56

adopting. I mean, it seems kind of mad

8:58

to think that he's waiting until she's in

9:00

the house and in the country. Cam just

9:02

kind of bulldozers

9:03

through that. And he just says, oh, I've invited

9:06

them all for dinner. So you can just tell them all tonight. So

9:08

he kind of makes Mitch confront the family.

9:10

And like we said, that Cam is bolder.

9:13

He's more up for confrontation. What

9:15

can we speculate about? And what do we actually know about

9:18

the origins of that? I do actually think

9:20

it's quite relevant that Cam grew up on a farm,

9:22

because I think you can have a sense of just

9:25

being a bit more closer to nature, that you just let

9:27

things out. And animals

9:29

do fight, and then they go off and they resolve it

9:31

and they come back. And we know a lot less

9:33

about Cam's family, but I get the impression that everything

9:36

was okay. Yeah, everyone let it all hang out. They let

9:38

it all out. They had fights. They made it up.

9:41

Whereas Mitch's family, as we see a lot

9:43

more of, they kind of keep things in a bit,

9:45

and they're a bit more concerned with appearances.

9:48

And also we know that Jay and Zeedy,

9:51

Mitch and Claire's parents, they did get divorced.

9:53

And it may well be that Mitch

9:55

kind of was aware that conflict

9:57

can lead to a breakup.

9:59

So he's,

9:59

might be more frightened of it

10:02

in that sense. But I think they really

10:04

operate on different levels as well in terms

10:07

of Mitch seems to work from

10:09

his head, he thinks things through, and

10:11

Cam seems to work more instinctively. And

10:14

in therapy, we sometimes have a very reductionist

10:16

way of categorising people

10:19

into being a feeler or a dealer.

10:21

Right, one or the other. Yeah, Mitch and Cam sort

10:23

of epitomise those two polarities,

10:26

I think. Cam very much lets it

10:28

all hang out. He cries,

10:30

he screams, he gets angry

10:32

when he needs to. Whereas Mitch is always the

10:34

one that wants to work it out. He wants to kind of be

10:37

rational, he wants to be logical, he wants to think

10:39

things through. There's positives and

10:41

negatives of being both those ways. The

10:43

positives of being somebody who can deal quite well

10:46

is that you do look like you're coping, you

10:48

can be quite impressive, you can be quite

10:50

an achiever, often very successful

10:53

because you're kind of shutting down all those feelings of

10:55

terror and overwhelm. And you're

10:56

just getting shit done. All of our tendencies,

10:58

if we get too stuck in them, come at a

11:01

cost. And the price you pay for being a dealer

11:03

is that you can be a bit cold,

11:05

a bit distant. The

11:07

feelings haven't gone away just because you're not aware

11:10

of them. They are still there, but they're so suppressed

11:12

that they often will then explode out in

11:14

ways that are a bit uncontrollable.

11:16

Yeah, that's right. Because Cam

11:18

sort of explodes every day and Mitch

11:20

explodes once a month. Exactly. It's

11:22

slightly scarier. It feels very serious.

11:24

It does, exactly. Because it's had time

11:27

to build, like you're kind of holding it back

11:29

behind a dam. The only way that the feelings

11:31

that are there can come out is by like exploding

11:33

through the dam and just like flooding. Whereas

11:36

for somebody who is a feeler, who

11:38

are kind of like flooding all the time,

11:40

what they need to do is almost like learn

11:43

how to control the tap. Yeah,

11:45

dealers need to find a tap. They

11:47

need to find a way of letting out controllably.

11:50

And the feelers need to learn how to kind of turn

11:52

the tap off occasionally so that they're now constantly

11:54

letting it out. As we know, Cam

11:57

just, you know, he's going to let it all

11:59

out. What Finn happens, he's gonna run with it.

12:02

I mean, there's an episode where he rescues

12:05

this crying gardener and

12:07

ends up having a wedding at their house. I

12:10

mean, like, he takes it so far. Actually,

12:12

there's a little snippet of that one we got here.

12:14

Rosa, thank you for coming. Carlos, let me know how it works

12:17

out with that dentist. Victor, you

12:19

owe me a dance. Yes, I'm

12:21

a caring person, and without Mitchell, I

12:23

would just keep giving and giving and giving. I'm

12:25

like a big runaway charity

12:27

truck, and Mitchell is my off-ramp full

12:29

of safety gravel. He knows how

12:32

to say no. He always can put himself

12:34

first. He certainly can turn his back on

12:36

someone suffering.

12:38

No, really keep

12:40

going. Don't keep going.

12:44

There's actually quite a lot. There's a little bit to unpack

12:47

in that, what

12:49

that little exchange there. It

12:51

was Jesse Tyler Ferguson, you heard there

12:53

at the end, as Mitchell and Eric Stonestreet,

12:56

as Cameron, from season one

12:58

of Modern Family, as episode 12

13:00

specifically, which was called Not In My House.

13:03

It was created and written by Stephen Levitan and Christopher

13:06

Lloyd. Additional writing in that

13:08

particular episode was by Caroline Williams

13:11

and Samir Gardezy, and it was directed

13:14

by Chris Koch. We'll give you full

13:16

credits for this and all of the clips used

13:18

as ever at the end of the podcast.

13:21

Now, what it makes me think when Cam

13:24

goes all out, like he does in that

13:27

exact episode, and how Mitch

13:29

sort of buttons it all up

13:31

and keeps it in.

13:33

Can you say that Cameron is

13:36

the healthier, like

13:38

mentally, or is that just complete

13:41

guff? Well, I wouldn't like to say it's complete guff,

13:43

but no, it's not necessarily

13:46

one is healthier than the other. It's like

13:49

anything really. We all need to have access to

13:51

both these things. So if you're more naturally a feeler,

13:54

like Cam is, the advantage

13:56

is that you are more warm, you're more empathic.

13:59

As he said, he will. run into any situation

14:01

and try and kind of make it better.

14:04

He's really in touch with what's going

14:06

on, but the downsides are

14:09

that he is then very unboundaried. He

14:11

can sometimes feel a bit helpless because he

14:13

can't control this sort of flood of

14:15

emotions. He can be a bit chaotic.

14:16

And I suppose vulnerable as well because everybody can see,

14:19

like, look at this. As always in therapy,

14:21

you're trying to get people to have access

14:23

to the other part of them that

14:26

they don't have. So in

14:28

therapy, with somebody who's really good at dealing

14:30

with things, we'd be endlessly saying, so what's

14:32

the feeling? Where can you feel this?

14:35

And a lot of people who are really cough have

14:37

no clue, which is part of the problem

14:39

because if you've very successfully cut yourself

14:41

off from all those negative feelings for very good reason,

14:45

you're often also cutting yourself off from the

14:47

pleasurable ones as well. Whereas

14:49

somebody

14:50

who's always feeling

14:52

flooded by their emotions and potentially

14:55

sometimes feeling a bit out of control with

14:57

them, with them you're having to sort of say, let's

14:59

rationally try and bring a bit

15:02

of cognition in to help mediate.

15:04

So one is completely unmediated and one

15:07

is overly mediated. That clip's

15:09

brilliant because it shows that each of

15:11

them can help the other one do that,

15:13

which sort of goes back to your first question, is

15:15

that healthy in a marriage or is that useful in a

15:17

marriage? Yes, it is because you can gradually

15:20

nudge your partner into being

15:22

the other way. Now for Mitch, it must have

15:24

been so hard from the beginning, even before going

15:27

out into a world that was not necessarily

15:29

warm towards different

15:31

sexualities. Like it would have begun at home

15:34

for him because he's got quite an

15:36

overbearing

15:37

older sister, he's got a narcissistic

15:39

mom and a dad who was definitely

15:41

homophobic, like definitely.

15:44

So he must have felt really alone with

15:46

it and must have felt very shuttered from

15:49

a very early age, which means that Mitch

15:52

from the start would have been seeking, I mean, we all

15:54

seek our parents' approval,

15:56

but Mitch would have been seeking it in a

15:58

profound way. Yeah. Never

16:00

got it as a youngster, I don't think. So when

16:03

we meet Mitchell, one

16:05

of the big sort of kind of painful, ongoing

16:08

stories for him is he is

16:11

constantly seeking approval.

16:13

From Jay, we really, we really see

16:15

it laid out in episode seven. So

16:18

seeing your dad's so proud of Manny didn't stir up

16:20

any resentment?

16:21

Mm-hmm. Okay,

16:24

fine, you always do this. Instead of letting your feelings out,

16:27

you bury them. And then they bubble up later

16:29

in hurtful ways. Okay, you know what? Yes,

16:32

all right, listen. I might still be holding

16:34

a little resentment, but that's embarrassing

16:38

and petty and it's not a good

16:40

color on me. It's kind of like you in yellow.

16:43

You love me in my yellow shirt? It makes you look like

16:45

the sun. Okay, bubbling, hurtful

16:48

bubbling. Hurtful bubbling.

16:50

Hurtful bubbling. As

16:52

I was saying, like, Jay

16:55

was, in my mind, undoubtedly

16:57

a homophobe back in the 70s, 80s,

17:01

you know, when Mitch would have been in his formative

17:03

years.

17:04

But what must that be like? I

17:07

guess for both the parent and the

17:09

child, because one of the things that makes

17:11

us sort of warm to Jay

17:13

is that

17:14

he's learning all the time, right? He's got

17:16

this new son

17:19

in Manny who's like a wise

17:21

old man that teaches him a lot

17:23

of stuff about how to treat people. And he's

17:26

got this very young wife who's obviously like, she

17:28

doesn't care if you're gay, straight, she's more

17:30

than woman. So he is learning now.

17:33

But I just wonder where his head

17:35

is at now

17:36

where Mitch's head would

17:39

have been as a child, as

17:41

a teenager especially, and

17:44

how that relationship works

17:46

when there's something fundamental in the

17:48

middle that the two people,

17:50

father and son, feel are

17:52

on opposite sides of the coin. Yeah,

17:54

I think it's really sad, and I think it happens

17:56

an awful lot that parents

17:58

are, even if they're not.

17:59

They say the opposite, they are secretly a little

18:02

bit disappointed that their child isn't more

18:04

like them. And children do

18:07

know it. And they do often,

18:09

and again, I think we've talked about this in different

18:11

permutations,

18:13

children are so keen to impress

18:15

their parents that they will try and kind

18:17

of like fit their round selves

18:19

into a square hole in order to

18:22

get that approval. And it's a bit like

18:25

a plant that is growing in

18:27

rocky soil that has to kind of like divert

18:29

at its course to go round these obstacles.

18:31

So it will still grow, but it will grow at a slightly

18:33

odd angle because it's

18:36

trying to pretend it's something it's not. And I

18:38

think that probably explains a lot of why

18:40

Mitchell is a bit repressed,

18:42

like he keeps saying, why he doesn't let things

18:45

out because it's been a bit dangerous for

18:47

him too, because he's scared that he will be disapproved of.

18:49

Not only has he got Jay slightly disapproving

18:52

of him and preferring Claire, he's

18:55

got his mum who is overly

18:57

enmeshed with him. She's such a big

19:00

personality as well. She

19:02

makes him into a mummy's boy. She

19:04

is quite narcissistic. We can

19:06

see even as an adult, she's using him

19:08

to do her dirty work when she kind

19:10

of has a meltdown at Jay and Gloria's wedding.

19:13

She's

19:13

only there because she persuaded Mitch

19:15

to persuade Jay to invite her. And

19:17

then she persuades Mitch to get her

19:19

invited to a family dinner so she can apologise where

19:22

she then actually has another attack

19:24

on Gloria. So

19:26

he's got this kind of overly enmeshed relationship

19:29

with his mum and this slightly distant relationship with his

19:31

dad. So yeah, you can really see that poor

19:33

lads got nowhere to go really other than say,

19:35

right, I'm just going to do things by the book. I'm going to become

19:37

a lawyer. I'm going to just understand

19:40

what the rules are. I'm going to be controlled because I can't

19:42

control either of my parents. So I'm going

19:43

to control what I can control and be

19:45

very boundaried. Claire must have been really

19:47

important for him as some stage. Maybe

19:51

after he'd come out, late teens

19:54

or early twenties or something like that, she must have been really important,

19:56

which also must have been quite difficult because she

19:58

is so mad.

19:59

She's controlling in a different

20:02

way to Mitch, isn't she? Yeah. But he

20:04

couldn't have found that ace either. No, and I mean, she's sort of

20:06

got the opposite relationship with her parents. She's

20:08

very distant from her mom and very close to

20:10

her dad. So she's like a daddy's girl.

20:13

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I mean, actually, her

20:15

relationship with her mom reminds me a little bit of

20:17

Monica and Judy Geller, where Judy Geller

20:19

was always criticizing Monica. And

20:23

Dee Dee also criticizes Claire. In fact,

20:25

funnily enough, there was a scene that we looked at in our Friends

20:27

episode with Monica and Judy Geller, where

20:30

Judy's talking about Monica's hair. And

20:32

actually, there's a scene where Dee Dee criticizes

20:34

Claire's hair as well. So clearly, this is like

20:36

the shorthand for critical mothers. Go

20:39

for the hairdo. Hair's

20:41

clearly a way of... There's

20:42

a thing. We're learning something about the writing

20:44

process here. Yes. All right. Well,

20:46

let's take a quick break. And afterwards, we'll have a look

20:49

at Dee Dee and Jay in a bit more detail. And

20:51

why fitting in is so important to Mitch

20:54

while standing out

20:55

appeals to Cam. Plus, how

20:57

to complement each other as a couple rather than be

20:59

polarized. All right. So stay tuned for that. And

21:02

we'll be back after the ads unless you're a subscriber to

21:04

the Take channel, in which case, we'll see you

21:06

soon. Actually, here's a little treat

21:09

for you and a quiz question. Work this out

21:11

during the ad breaks if you can. If you're a proper

21:14

modern family nerd, what were

21:16

the names of Mitchell's childhood

21:18

pets? Hmm.

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23:51

All right, we are back. Oh, and

23:53

the answer to the quiz for the super

23:55

fans is that Mitchell had a pet

23:58

snake named Sharjar.

23:59

and a bird named

24:02

Flieserman. Now, there's

24:07

a huge moment where Mitch talks

24:09

about his process of coming out

24:12

to his father. And this is big. You

24:15

are a funny man. Why? Because

24:17

you're completely bothered by the flowers, but when

24:19

my father introduces you as a friend of my son, doesn't

24:22

faze you in

24:22

the least. Because the florist played me for a

24:24

fool. Your dad didn't mean any harm. He's

24:26

just being who he is. When

24:28

I was back east in law school, my

24:31

dad used to call me every Saturday at 6pm. I

24:34

think the Christmas of my second year, I

24:37

finally got up the courage to tell him.

24:41

After that, I pretty much just talked

24:43

to my mom. Don't cry.

24:46

I'm not crying. It's really

24:48

sweet that. One of

24:50

the reasons I like Jay is because I do get that

24:52

sense that he is sort of having

24:55

a basher at changing and

24:57

growing and maturing in his modernizing

25:00

his ideas about the

25:02

world, about worlds that

25:05

he recognizes he doesn't understand. And

25:07

the other

25:08

thing I love about him is he

25:12

seems to sort of really like Cam, you

25:14

know, like in a sort of boy's

25:16

own way, even though Cam is clearly

25:19

gay.

25:20

Far more campy than Mitch. And

25:22

way more camp than his own son. But he

25:24

does sort of have a knockabout relationship with Cam. Cam

25:27

is a fully rounded human being. Like

25:30

we've said before, he's not just the sort of campy

25:32

drama queen who loves Diana Ross. He

25:35

is also somebody who loves football so

25:37

they can watch the match together. He's

25:39

somebody he likes playing squash and they play

25:41

squash together. And they do seem to have

25:43

a genuinely good relationship. But I

25:46

mean, even to the point where I mean, Jay, clearly he

25:48

tries so hard not to be the

25:50

person that he grew up being.

25:53

When he plays squash with Cam, it's very funny. They're

25:55

changing and they're changing and they accidentally

25:56

touch bare bottoms together and

25:59

Chase is coming for life.

25:59

completely freaked out by it. But

26:02

then after the match, he's like, no, I'm gonna go

26:05

for this. And then he thinks Cameron's behind

26:07

him and it's a different bloke. So Jay

26:09

kind of, they touch bottoms again. And

26:11

Jay is like, no, see, I'm not bothered. Look, I'm even gonna

26:14

like rub it a bit. And then he turns around and realizes

26:16

it's not a can. So bless

26:18

him, he does try. But there's a bit as well

26:20

in one of the scenes where Jay actually

26:22

says to Gloria how hard it is to see

26:25

your kid make a fool of himself. I

26:27

think he was really worried for

26:29

Mitch.

26:29

I think when it was sort of kind

26:32

of becoming obvious that Mitch was gay

26:34

and wanting to do the ice skating and having

26:37

pets called Jar Jar Gabor and Fliesa

26:39

Manelli, you can kind of see that maybe

26:41

he was trying to help Mitch by trying to toughen

26:43

him up. So maybe that sort of brusqueness

26:45

and that kind of tough love

26:48

was his way of trying to help Mitch. I

26:50

mean, it was misguided, but he probably

26:53

thought he was doing the right thing. And you can see

26:55

him really trying with Manny to

26:57

be the sort of father that he couldn't be to

26:59

Mitch. Another thing, it's almost

27:01

like an Easter egg is a nice little additional

27:04

element with Jay is that

27:07

he's got a group of old buddies, his

27:09

old drinking buddies. And one

27:12

of them's clearly gay. And he's

27:14

just never clocked it. Yeah. Brilliantly

27:16

played by Chas Parmontari, who

27:18

has an amazing casting in

27:21

comedy terms because he's only

27:23

ever played

27:24

hardcore mobsters. His

27:27

whole career is what he's known for. Italian-American,

27:31

hard man mobsters. So it's really,

27:33

it's an extra little gag that

27:36

he's the gay one of the

27:38

crew and Jay just doesn't

27:40

clock it, which is another nice little

27:42

thing. And you just get the sense that somewhere along

27:45

the line,

27:46

Jay's just gonna be completely accepting.

27:49

Now, how does Mitch feel

27:52

the fact that there is no sort of traditional,

27:55

I know I'm gonna put this in massive inverted comments

27:57

before everyone like kicks me in the nuts

27:59

and runs off. screaming, he's cancelled.

28:02

No mother figure in a marriage

28:04

of two men raising a kid,

28:06

who's also, by the way, female. Yeah,

28:08

well they sort of addressed that elephant in

28:10

the room right from episode one, because

28:12

even before Mitch has announced

28:15

Lily's arrival, he says, oh, I've

28:17

got some big news. Jay says something like, oh, God, I hope

28:19

it's not a baby. A kid needs a mother, which

28:22

does sort of set up so many things

28:24

of, yes, Jay's kind of old-fashionedness.

28:27

But also it is something that Camaritch

28:29

do worry about. At one point

28:31

they take Lily to a pediatrician and

28:33

actually they make one of their slightly racist

28:36

comments about it, because the pediatrician is

28:38

also Asian. I think she's like, she's definitely

28:40

not Vietnamese. But she's not Vietnamese. And

28:43

they keep saying, so what would this be? How would you pronounce

28:46

this in your culture? She's like, I'm from Denver. And

28:48

to kind of make up for it, they invite her around for dinner

28:50

and while she's there and she's holding Lily

28:52

and Lily says the word mummy and they

28:55

can't bear it. And they're like, this is every gay

28:58

father's nightmare. It's a thing that your

29:00

daughter's first word is mummy.

29:02

And is she missing out? And later,

29:04

of course, it's a mix up and it turns out that it's her doll

29:06

that she loves that if you press

29:08

it, it says mummy. So she's learned it from that. But

29:10

they do think, oh goodness, will we be able

29:12

to be

29:13

everything she needs? But of course,

29:16

it doesn't have to be a female character

29:18

that acts as a mum. Of course, a baby wants

29:20

warmth and hugs and love and approval.

29:23

It doesn't have to be a woman that provides that.

29:26

Many people have their dad as their warm

29:28

affectionate, secure attachment figure and their mum

29:30

as the sort of cold disciplinarian,

29:33

even in a traditional family. So yes, two

29:35

men can quite happily bring up a

29:37

baby as long as they're warm and loving.

29:40

So it's the role rather than the

29:43

gender.

29:43

But nevertheless, you know, they are

29:46

concerned about how they present as

29:49

parents.

29:50

They take Lily to playschool

29:52

and Mitch asks Cam to like, sort

29:54

of basically dress less camp, you know,

29:56

because he doesn't want to just be looked at as, oh,

29:59

the gay dad.

29:59

But

30:02

then some other gay dads actually turned up. Yeah.

30:05

Which is amazing. We got a clip

30:07

from that episode. Let's just go.

30:09

Oh, look who's here. Antonin

30:12

Gohler. I'm sorry we're late.

30:14

Don't look at me. The eye candy here. Can't

30:16

leave the house without spending 20 minutes in front of the mirror.

30:20

Are you kidding me? I am

30:22

so sorry. Look at

30:24

those queens. I would have killed with this crowd. But you

30:26

had to clip my wings, which you used to be the wind

30:28

beneath. I know. I'm sorry. This class

30:31

has turned me into a complete monster. I'm

30:33

just... I'll make it up to you. Let's just go.

30:35

Okay. It's time for a parents

30:37

dance. Everybody dance for your baby.

30:44

You want to do it, don't you?

30:47

I do. I want to dance

30:49

for my baby. All right. Go on. Get

30:51

in there. Sure. Make that horsey move. Go

30:54

ahead. Brilliant.

30:57

I love it, man. I love it. It's

31:00

one of those shows where you sometimes check yourself.

31:04

I mean, I'm sure there'll be people listening to this show going, how

31:06

could you have an opinion on, you know, what

31:08

it's like to be gay or as

31:11

a gay parent when you're straight or whatnot. And

31:13

I'm not trying to say I'm an expert on any of

31:15

it. But I think, like,

31:17

as stereotypical, perhaps, as

31:19

some of the things might feel, I feel

31:21

like there's a lot of balance. Everybody

31:23

puts their foot in it in an equal way,

31:26

whether gay, straight, white, black, whatever

31:28

it's about, you know. It's

31:31

all there. And as we've said from probably

31:33

episode one of Shrink the Books, what

31:35

we love about good writing is

31:37

that good writing knows when

31:40

it's showing you something

31:43

that might be problematic, might be

31:45

sexist, might be racist, might be homophobic.

31:47

It knows it's doing it,

31:49

and bad writing doesn't. Yeah,

31:52

because also there's so much more debate

31:54

now about who can play what. And Eric

31:56

Stonestreet who plays Cam is... Yeah, that's

31:58

the one. That's

31:59

what I was saying. Yeah, he did. I mean, I did

32:01

a sort of a unscientific quick-shore

32:03

poll of my gay friends to say,

32:06

how much does it bother you? And all of them said it doesn't bother

32:08

me at all. He's brilliant in the role.

32:10

And because it's a very sensitive portrayal,

32:13

they kind of think that's okay, because

32:16

it was then. Also,

32:17

he's not the only gay character. If I was watching

32:19

a show and it had one black person in

32:21

it, I'd be way more critical

32:23

than if every time I saw

32:26

that black person, there was another black person who was completely different

32:28

in

32:29

the same scene. I'm way more accepting

32:31

there because then I'm like, oh, well, the writers have

32:33

clocked that we don't all just do this

32:35

one thing. Do you know what I

32:37

mean? One of my big things that makes

32:40

my heart bulge with Joy, with

32:42

this show and your analysis of these

32:45

two characters

32:47

is that they really

32:49

clash. Then they find the

32:52

mistakes that they've made within that clash and

32:55

they balance each other out beautifully.

32:57

Mitch has in many

33:00

ways felt slightly ashamed of being who

33:02

he is. And Cam is just so naturally

33:05

himself. And Mitch tries

33:07

to rein him in. We see that with

33:10

the clip we just heard. He tried to make him be less gay

33:13

at Playgroup. And in fact,

33:15

the very first scene where they are introducing

33:17

Lily to the family, we've seen Mitch be all mealy-mouthed

33:20

and a bit

33:21

kind of, oh my God, how

33:23

will my family react? Whereas Cam

33:25

comes in, like, to the music of the Lion King

33:28

and presents her. And

33:31

Mitch says to him, can you just sort of turn

33:33

it off, meaning the music? And

33:36

Cam says, I can't turn it off, it's who I am.

33:40

That's a great line. And that's why I think they're

33:42

so great together. It's like Mitch is always trying

33:44

to say, look, just tone it down. And Cam

33:46

is always saying, I can't, I can't. But actually

33:48

they do tone each other down. Cam encourages

33:51

Mitch to loosen up,

33:53

to dance, to be a bit

33:55

more, yeah, live a little. Exactly

33:57

that. There's another scene that I think shows

33:59

why they work as

34:02

opposites but also as opposites who are

34:04

prepared to change a little bit where

34:06

they accidentally lock Lily in the car.

34:09

And Mitch goes straight into dealer

34:11

mode, right, let's get onto the phone to the

34:13

car company, let's see if they can open this remotely.

34:16

Whereas Cam goes straight into feeler mode

34:18

and like runs around screaming with a bin over his

34:21

head. He picks up a bin that he's going to like throw

34:23

and break the windshield.

34:25

And Mitch is like, no, no, you'll hurt her if you

34:28

do that. In fact, Cam's screaming so

34:30

loudly that the woman at the car plays that

34:32

Mitch is on the phone to says, is your wife

34:34

all right? He's like, that's not a woman

34:36

screaming. So in times of crisis,

34:39

they literally go to their safe

34:41

place. Mitch is going to deal with it rationally

34:43

and get on the phone. Cam is going to deal with

34:45

it as a feeler by screaming and getting

34:47

hysterical. And actually they managed

34:50

to between them, they sort of solve the

34:52

problem. So yeah, opposites attract

34:54

and you can completely outsource the thing that

34:56

you don't want to do. But actually you can also

34:58

gently be nudged and teased

35:01

and slightly pushed out of your comfort zone

35:03

so that you don't have to rely on

35:05

them.

35:06

Also, one of the hidden benefits is

35:08

you don't get that horrible situation

35:10

of like, well, I married this

35:13

guy,

35:14

despite these things that I hate

35:16

about him. But give me like 20

35:18

years, I'll soften those edges,

35:20

I'll change him, I'll get him doing what

35:22

I want him to do, I'll get him to be more like

35:25

me, I'll get him to do things the way I

35:27

want them done. Maybe that's

35:29

one of the great beauties of Cam and Mitch,

35:32

that they allow each other to be different

35:34

and they allow for each other to grow and

35:36

change. Yeah, they really do. I mean, I often

35:39

think that people who are getting together,

35:41

you have to assume if this is the

35:43

worst, if it's never going to get any better, is

35:45

this good enough? Because if you kind of think, oh,

35:48

it will be okay if just as you've

35:50

said, then you're always going to be disappointed if they

35:52

don't change. If you think this is as good as

35:54

it gets, then it can only be a bonus

35:56

if things do change. But

35:58

I think with any of

35:59

these like categorizing people

36:02

into feelers or dealers or like you know introvert

36:04

or extrovert or or you know all the other

36:06

ways that we've looked at contrasting characters

36:09

in other episodes. It's

36:11

not so much saying oh well

36:13

this is who I am and therefore you have

36:15

to accept it and therefore I never have to

36:17

change because then you just get stuck.

36:20

Nor is it about saying oh this is

36:22

who I am and I hate it and I have to go to the other

36:24

extreme and completely shut down those bits of

36:27

me. It's about understanding your

36:29

starting point so that you can know

36:32

how do I optimize these qualities that

36:34

I've got. How do I put them to good use. So it's

36:36

about fulfilling your potential

36:39

really and that might be by

36:41

harnessing the qualities that you do have or

36:43

it might be modifying them a bit. Yeah

36:45

fair enough. All right

36:47

well plenty of life lessons in there for you guys

36:50

out there

36:50

and you guys out there. Thank

36:52

you for keeping your correspondence

36:56

and it still does keep rolling in and we really appreciate

36:58

it. You know what to do just hit us up with

37:00

your character suggestions and comments to

37:03

shrinktheboxasonymusic.com.

37:04

This

37:06

week we've got Chris in

37:09

London who says hey Ben and Sash

37:11

thank you thank you for my favorite new podcast

37:14

for a very long time. I'd be fascinated to see one

37:16

of the three siblings from This Is Us on

37:19

the couch. I was a big fan of This Is Us.

37:21

Did you ever watch it? Yeah yeah. It's

37:23

sort of soapy but there is something

37:25

in it. There's definitely something in it and the

37:27

blended family element is interesting too.

37:30

Sorry Chris he says my wife's a social

37:33

worker who's done a lot of systemic family therapy

37:36

and we found the show really engaging. It would

37:37

be fascinating to see what's under the psychological

37:40

bonnet of Randall's character especially.

37:42

He's the black kid who was adopted right and

37:45

with his desire to save the world and

37:47

as a writer performer I'd love to know more about

37:49

Kevin's gravitation towards performing. Also

37:52

if I can chuck in another suggestion it would be one of the

37:54

Simpsons. Yes we did talk about

37:56

that didn't we? Keep up the beautiful

37:58

work from Chris Reid.

37:59

in London. Quick aside on This

38:02

Is Us, the only thing I didn't like

38:04

about it was everybody's ripped.

38:07

Why is everybody ripped? Well, the men

38:09

are. The men, yeah. Like

38:11

Randall, I can't remember what his job was, but

38:13

he wasn't a lifeguard. And

38:16

then he'd just be like stripped to the waist.

38:18

Every episode he'd come down for breakfast, stripped to the

38:21

waist or come off the treadmill. He's

38:24

got like muscles popping out of his shoulders.

38:27

That's unnecessary. Anyway, other than that, I liked

38:29

it. Who's this from?

38:29

Connor. Connor says, Hey, Ben and sash,

38:32

love the podcast, something different. And

38:34

also a great way to find new interesting series

38:36

to watch. Left field suggestion from me,

38:39

Mark Corrigan from Peep Show or indeed

38:41

Jez. Complex characters with a lot to

38:43

unpack over the scope of the show for a sitcom.

38:46

Appreciate

38:46

you usually do one series. Thanks

38:48

from Connor. I think Mark,

38:51

I don't know about Jez, but Mark Corrigan, I would

38:53

love to do. He's an unbelievable

38:55

character that

38:58

the element of him getting married

39:01

out of guilt and embarrassment is

39:04

just unbelievable. Like there's

39:07

something so disturbingly

39:09

British about that moment.

39:11

That needs talking about. That's really fucking

39:14

dark. Anyway, thank you, Connor. Thank

39:16

you, Chris. And thank you to everybody who emailed

39:18

us this week. And hopefully we'll

39:20

pick out two or three of your best emails

39:23

next week. In the meantime, do

39:25

make sure you follow us wherever

39:27

you get your pods Apple, Spotify, Stitcher,

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Amazon, you know the deal. And you can get new

39:32

episodes and share the love of your friends. Send

39:35

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subscribe to extra takes. Your subscription

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Kermode and Mails take and access

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to their subscriber exclusive extra episodes.

39:50

So try the free trial,

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give it a bash, nothing to lose. You can click try

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Apple podcasts or by visiting extra.

39:59

Thank you

40:02

to our wonderful production team. Production

40:04

management is Lily Hamblee. Assistant

40:06

producer is Bashak Erton. Social media is

40:08

Jonathan Imieri. Studio engineer is Gali Tickle.

40:10

And the mix engineer is John Scott. The

40:12

senior producer is Selina Rehm. And exec producer

40:15

is Simon Paul. And Shrink the

40:17

Box is a Sony Music Entertainment

40:19

production. Now my favorite

40:22

part of the show, the drum roll section, Sasha.

40:25

Who we got next week? Started off on channel

40:28

four, had two seasons, was loved

40:30

by many, but then got dropped. And

40:32

Netflix in their wisdom chose

40:35

to recommission it. It came

40:37

back as Top Boy and the previous

40:40

channel four series was called Top

40:42

Boy, renamed Top Boy Summerhouse

40:44

to distinguish. So they're in sort of in

40:46

two separate chunks. But we're

40:49

gonna look at the first series

40:51

of the later.

40:52

So we're cheating, but not cheating. This

40:55

is season one, sort of marked two. Yes,

40:58

exactly. Of Top Boy. Exactly. So

41:00

it's a little bit confusing. So it's not Top Boy Summerhouse,

41:02

the original one. It's just Top Boy,

41:05

the Netflix version. And the reason we're

41:07

looking at it is because I really like Jamie,

41:10

played by the magnetic Michael Ward,

41:12

who wasn't in the earlier ones. Jamie

41:14

comes into his own in the Netflix version.

41:17

So have a listen to the trailer.

41:19

I know London.

41:22

People pay a lot of money to get high. Dark,

41:25

white, weed, all of

41:27

that. Do

41:30

you get me? Look

41:37

at your makeup. How about this connect? If

41:43

we do this, we're back on top. What

41:47

are you saying? Sorry, it's

41:50

back on Summerhouse, you know. Guess who used to

41:52

live? The Shane Hill.

41:59

They're shutting. They got

42:02

food you know. We're

42:06

back bro. Things

42:09

have changed. I'm running the foods now. Nah.

42:13

Fuck that. Ain't nobody gonna try and travel to

42:15

Summerhouse. Jamie,

42:18

yeah? Maybe give you a piece of advice.

42:23

You're here to get mine. You

42:25

wanna sell food, you sell my food.

42:29

You don't sell nothing at all.

42:36

Yes. It's our very own

42:38

Gangster series. This is like

42:40

a kind of seminal moment for

42:42

me, Top Boy, because you

42:44

know, we often do the, you

42:46

know, get the shooter out of the van kind

42:49

of British gangster stuff

42:51

in the UK. But to have like

42:54

a kind of almost exclusively

42:56

black cast set in Hackney,

42:58

my former stomping grounds where I lived for many,

43:00

many, many years to see all those

43:03

streets that I miss so much. Filled

43:05

with this sort

43:06

of, it's almost like a hyper real drama.

43:08

I know that crazy stuff does go on. Top

43:10

Boy is, you know, it takes it to the

43:13

extremes in a very entertaining fashion.

43:16

But on top of that, to have the

43:18

cast made up of so

43:21

many rappers

43:23

that, you know, I either

43:25

came up with or came

43:28

up admiring like Kano

43:30

and Ashley Waters, who was obviously,

43:33

you know, in the So Solid crew. For those who

43:35

remember that,

43:36

like, these are these are guys that changed

43:38

the game in terms of black

43:40

British music. And then you got, you know, the

43:42

more newer school, like Little Sims is in it. Dave

43:45

is in it. There's like Rap Royalty, UK

43:47

Rap Royalty in this series, which gives it an extra bit

43:49

of intrigue

43:50

for me. But I'm just glad that it's really

43:52

popular, because even though it does have a lot

43:55

of outrageous violence and ridiculous

43:58

stuff happening, I think

44:00

it's cool for kids to

44:02

be able to see just a black

44:04

British series, just unapologetic.

44:07

It's just like, here's a big black blockbuster,

44:09

because we don't get that very often, definitely not in the UK.

44:13

I'm glad you felt like there was something in

44:15

it to dig deeper into, though.

44:17

Oh, I just think they're all such great

44:19

characters, but also you just,

44:21

I mean, it's heartbreaking just to see kind

44:24

of what they were all up against, really. And you get a real

44:26

sense of that echelon

44:28

of society and how

44:31

hard it is to make a living.

44:34

But yeah, all of those amazing musicians

44:36

are such good actors as well. You

44:39

would never know that they had this other

44:41

incredible talent, because they just seem

44:43

to be such natural-born actors

44:44

as well, they're fabulous. Yeah, and Keanu really

44:47

just gets better and better and better as

44:49

we go along, the way he becomes a sort

44:51

of father figure to that little

44:53

squirt that he sort of takes

44:56

under his wing.

44:57

His face is so expressive. He

45:00

says so much. So yeah, we're cheating,

45:02

we're doing season one that is technically

45:05

season three, but not really, it's the Netflix

45:07

season one. Don't miss it, I'll

45:10

be here, Sasha will be here, we'll

45:12

be enjoying it very much, I hope you will too, so we'll

45:14

see you there next

45:16

week. Bye. Tada.

45:22

Okay, as promised, it's time for the Modern

45:24

Family Credits, season one. It

45:27

was created and written by Stephen Levitan

45:29

and Christopher Lloyd, but not that one,

45:32

disappointingly. The clip at the top and

45:34

the clip at the end about being the only gay

45:36

couple at nursery, they're from

45:38

episode two, entitled The Bicycle Thief.

45:41

Additional writing was by Bill Ruble

45:44

and Samir Gardezy, directed

45:46

by Jason Weiner. Mitchell Getting

45:48

Jealous of Manny is episode seven

45:50

named On Guard. Additional writing

45:52

by Danny Zuker, directed by

45:54

Randall Einhorn.

45:56

Modern Family is produced by Levitan Lloyd

45:59

and 20th Century.

45:59

Fox Television. It's distributed by

46:02

ABC, Amazon, Disney, Netflix, Disney

46:04

Plus and many more worldwide. Go to

46:06

JustWatch.com for more details. Thanks

46:08

for listening guys and see you next week.

46:10

Try

46:30

it out, check

46:32

out,

46:33

think it out. REI

46:35

Co-op. All out.

46:37

Visit REI.com.