0:03

Please tell us why you should stay at this school.

0:06

I'd read all of Jane Austen by the time I was 12, including

0:09

her lesser-known work Lady Susan, which is a severely

0:11

underrated piece of feminist literature. I

0:14

can also debate the inherent difference between existentialism

0:17

and transcendentalism, explaining why Sartre

0:20

is the prominent voice of the former and the latter is barely remembered

0:22

as a philosophical movement.

0:24

I can also gauge the depths of Mr. Hendricks' personal despair

0:26

based on his choice of Hawaiian shirt. I'm

0:29

really smart.

0:32

I just got unlucky in the family department.

0:37

It's TV's baby S here. And

0:40

Sasha Bates. And you're welcome, as ever,

0:42

to the magical place where we select our

0:44

favourite fictional TV characters, stick

0:47

them in therapy, just to try and understand them, and

0:49

ourselves, in a bit more detail. Sasha,

0:52

who are we hearing there at the top?

0:54

That was Maeve Wiley,

0:56

who, as she says, has been unlucky in

0:58

the family department. She's

1:01

on Netflix's Sex Education,

1:03

and she was talking there to her headmaster,

1:05

Mr. Groff, trying to explain why she should stay

1:07

in school, because that

1:10

complicated home life is something that

1:12

she's been trying to manage alongside all of the school

1:14

politics. But yeah, this is exciting,

1:16

because it's our first sort of two-part Shrink

1:18

the Box. Doubleheader. Yeah.

1:21

I think

1:21

it's right. I know a lot of people have been calling,

1:24

listeners have been calling for the Doubleheaders or deeper

1:26

dives into shows, and I think we probably will

1:28

go back into some of those ensemble

1:31

shows like The Wire, Sopranos,

1:33

ones we started with, some of the big shows we

1:36

started with. But I think this is a good time to

1:38

do it, because this is another show that sort of centres

1:40

around the therapist, the concept of

1:42

therapy. And so

1:45

as a result, it feels like there's a lot of fully

1:47

rounded characters to dig

1:49

into.

1:50

There really are. And I think we

1:52

decided, didn't we, that this week we'd do mainly

1:55

Maeve and some of the more

1:57

female issues.

1:59

for next week we'll talk a bit more about the

2:02

boys. The boys? Eric

2:04

and Otis. Yeah. All right. Cool,

2:06

cool, cool. Now you'd seen this show

2:08

already, right?

2:09

Yeah, I really liked it. And you've seen all

2:11

of the seasons? I think the first two.

2:13

First two. So I'd never, I hadn't seen

2:15

one episode. Yeah, what did you think? Well,

2:18

it was weird because like the first

2:20

couple of episodes I was, I

2:23

felt like a voyeur. I thought, oh, I shouldn't

2:25

be watching this, which is weird because obviously it's

2:27

rated 18 on Netflix, but it's about 16

2:29

and 17 year olds. But

2:32

because it's 16 and 17 year olds

2:34

having sex pretty much from the jump off, I

2:36

think from the opening scene of the first

2:38

episode, I had a weird feeling of like, oh,

2:41

I don't think I should be watching this. So I

2:43

sort of,

2:43

I didn't binge it

2:45

or anything like that. It took like a week to watch the first

2:47

two episodes. But you know who brought

2:49

me in? It was Eric. Eric somehow

2:52

just grabbed me by the lapels and

2:54

dragged me into series. I love

2:56

that character. Amazingly played by

2:58

Shutee Gatwa, the new Doctor Who,

3:01

of course. Like really funny, really

3:03

touching and something

3:06

about him, he became my

3:07

guide. And by

3:10

episode four, I was like completely

3:12

hooked. On all of them. Yeah. Yeah.

3:15

Yeah. But Eric was my gateway for Somrism.

3:17

He's so authentic, isn't he? He's

3:19

so authentically himself. And

3:22

Maeve, who we're looking at today, I guess I initially

3:24

thought, oh, okay, this is the sort

3:26

of

3:27

quintessential like

3:30

troubled outsider punk girl.

3:32

But actually, there's a lot more to

3:34

it than that, would you say?

3:36

Yeah, I mean, there really is. I think she's

3:38

fascinating. And I think they all are

3:40

because each of them is dealing with such a different

3:42

sort of a home life. And

3:45

each of them is having to kind of negotiate

3:48

the home life and their own temperaments

3:51

and the politics of school. And

3:54

hormones. And it's

3:57

also what is really interesting, I think,

3:59

about the teenage brownies. is that

4:01

there are so many changes going on neuronelly.

4:04

The whole structure of the brain is changing and

4:06

that affects their behavior,

4:08

it affects their emotions, it affects how they relate

4:12

to themselves and to each other. And ultimately the

4:14

nature of the very plastic state

4:17

of the brain as a teenager will go on to

4:19

determine the sort of adults they're gonna become. So it's a really

4:21

crucial time and they are

4:24

having to negotiate it with not a huge

4:27

amount of help from the adults around them

4:28

by the looks of this. Yeah, I mean the adults are struggling

4:30

as well. It's really sort of hit home in so

4:33

many ways in that respect having two teenage

4:35

daughters as I do. You know, I

4:38

found it uncomfortable and moving

4:40

on different times on

4:42

similar levels because there's

4:45

elements of nostalgia in there as

4:47

an adult. We think back, oh my God, yeah, I

4:49

remember how stressful that time was. And then there's these

4:51

other elements that are very much now

4:53

where it's like,

4:54

fuck, is this what my kids are having to deal

4:56

with every day? So

4:59

out there listening, if you haven't

5:01

guessed already, I'm sure you will know

5:04

from the nature of this show

5:07

that there are, there's gonna be penises,

5:09

there's gonna be vaginas, it's

5:11

gonna be adult from start to finish. So,

5:14

you know, just bear that in mind and

5:17

just keep it locked right here on Shrink the Box

5:19

as we investigate issues like

5:21

the importance of peers, slut shaming,

5:24

reputation, vagina

5:27

photos, cockbiting, I mean,

5:29

you'd expect nothing less from your

5:31

very own therapy slash TV podcast.

5:33

This is Shrink

5:35

the Box.

5:36

["Shrink the Box"]

5:41

All right, it's recap time for those who need a

5:43

little reminder on sex education.

5:46

Here's the scoop. We got Otis Milburn,

5:48

who's played by Asa Butterfield. He

5:51

is this shy teenager

5:53

at Mordale High School who

5:56

along with his best friend, Eric,

5:58

played by Shutee Gatwa.

5:59

is at the fringes of social life at

6:02

their school. And his mum,

6:05

Otis' mum is played by Gillian Anderson, and

6:07

she is this esteemed sex

6:10

therapist, often much

6:12

to Otis' dismay. And when Maeve

6:15

Wiley, another sort of outsider, played by Emma

6:17

Mackey, who's this street-smart, academic,

6:20

feminist sort of punk, who's

6:23

living in a caravan and struggling with cashflow,

6:25

when she notices his clinical

6:28

knowledge of sex and sexuality,

6:29

Maeve proposes a business to

6:32

Otis, providing sex therapy to

6:35

the students of Mordell.

6:37

So that's how we sort of

6:39

kick off. It's quite extreme, but

6:42

once you've got into the characters, you're sort of,

6:44

you're on board. You're on board with this kind of crazy

6:46

concept. So this week we're focusing

6:49

on Maeve.

6:50

Sash, tell us a bit about your first impressions.

6:53

Yeah, well, like you said, she is

6:55

a bit of a punk. She looks quite

6:58

frightening to the more conventionally

7:01

dressed kids, who all look a

7:03

lot younger than her. And she

7:05

does seem older because she's kind of had

7:07

to be. She's been pre-entified too

7:09

early, a bit like we saw last week

7:11

with Jamie in Top Boy. She's

7:14

had to learn to be self-sufficient

7:16

because even though she's 16, she

7:19

lives on her own in a caravan park.

7:21

Her mum is an addict. We don't really know where

7:23

she is, but she's absent. Her dad,

7:25

I don't think she ever knew. And she's got this

7:27

older brother who seems to be a real

7:30

sort of wheeler and dealer, and he's not around

7:32

either. So she's really on her own. And so she's had

7:34

to become very sort

7:36

of entrepreneurial, which I think

7:38

is why she set up the clinic because we can see that she's

7:40

got no money. She can't pay the bills. She's pinching gas

7:43

tanks from underneath the caravan of

7:45

her neighbors to be able to cook for herself.

7:48

Yeah, and she's only 16, but she's really

7:50

bright, as we heard in the clip at the top.

7:52

A lot of kids that age

7:54

tend to experience some level of

7:56

isolation, even if they're surrounded

7:59

by family, right? because they're going through

8:01

these changes and they're having

8:03

these really deep thoughts for the first time.

8:06

And emotionally, a lot of the time, they might feel

8:08

that nobody else

8:09

understands them. So they might experience

8:13

some levels of isolation, maybe even

8:15

profound levels, despite being surrounded by people.

8:18

Maeve

8:19

is actually physically on her

8:21

own. And we're not 100% sure for how long.

8:23

I mean, when her brother does appear,

8:26

she says, you know, you left

8:28

without telling me. And it feels like

8:30

a couple of years. I

8:33

just wonder what that must be like in this small sort

8:35

of confined space as well as a trailer.

8:38

How do you think that might add

8:40

on to the general isolation

8:43

that the teenagers probably feel

8:45

anyway?

8:46

Yeah, well, I think it's made her very defended.

8:48

I think that's why she puts on this sort of outside

8:51

mask of being a bit of

8:53

a cow, bit kind of tough,

8:55

a bit unneedy.

8:56

Because if she admits

8:58

to the fact that she's lonely and isolated

9:01

and in need, then it

9:04

makes herself vulnerable. So she has to kind

9:06

of really keep that persona

9:08

in place. And it's

9:10

not just a persona. She has had to be that,

9:13

I think. But I think she is, I think as we'll

9:15

see as we go through it, there are several

9:18

situations where you see that she

9:20

isn't nearly as tough as she

9:22

makes out, where there is a bit of her that would

9:24

really like to just be a 16 year old

9:28

who's allowed to show vulnerability

9:30

and have support. And I think she is

9:32

quite lonely, which is why the clinic

9:34

is such a great idea because it's a way to

9:36

sort of get close to people without actually having

9:38

to get close to them. And

9:40

I think it's very touching how her and Otis's

9:42

relationship kind of develops as well

9:44

because they see each other. Yeah, well, she's

9:47

highly intelligent as well. That's clear.

9:49

And we see her writing essays

9:52

for other kids, providing

9:55

that service too for cash.

9:58

We occasionally see, I think it's her English.

9:59

who's

10:00

sort of always saying, you're really smart,

10:03

why are you wasting it kind of thing. So we get that sense,

10:05

she's super intelligent. And similarly

10:08

with Otis, there's a lot of, if not

10:10

emotional intelligence, there is a lot of scientific

10:13

knowledge, therapeutic knowledge that he's

10:15

sort of almost got

10:17

fire, osmosis fire

10:19

is his parents. That you say

10:22

they see each other and that he's

10:24

almost like a little islander, although she probably

10:26

wouldn't admit it. If I think she just calls him dickhead,

10:29

doesn't she? For the first few episodes. There's

10:31

an interesting moment where she meets

10:35

by chance at an abortion clinic,

10:37

a woman who is similarly

10:41

individual, let's say in her like

10:44

outward approach to life. And

10:47

it's interesting how they, first

10:49

for a long time, they really clash because

10:52

it's almost like two positive batteries. There's

10:54

this like older,

10:56

almost middle-aged woman who

10:59

is similarly outspoken and big

11:01

and bold in her statements and

11:04

confrontational in a moment

11:06

where

11:07

Maeve is feeling very small and

11:09

is in a very quiet space. I think we've

11:11

got a little clip of that meeting here. Do

11:14

you still want

11:14

me to wait? She'll still need someone

11:16

to take her home. You

11:19

look sweet. That really seemed

11:21

like your type though. He's not. Little

11:25

bit of advice, lovey. If you want a happy life, you

11:27

keep the sweet ones around. Tony DeMans, thanks.

11:30

Okay, Einstein.

11:32

Yeah, which novelist and artist

11:34

illustrated his own series of novels, Titus

11:36

Grown, Gorman Gaston, Titus of Rome?

11:38

Come on, I bet you know this one.

11:40

Yeah, it's Maven Peek. Maven Peek, yeah. I think

11:42

I could all appreciate a bit of choir right now. Thanks. First

11:45

of all, the whole birding game. That

11:48

was Maeve in Sex

11:50

Education Series One, episode three. Emma

11:53

Mackey as Maeve Wiley and that

11:55

was Lou Corfield, you heard,

11:59

Laurie Nunn. That particular episode

12:02

was written by Sophie Goodhart, directed by Ben

12:04

Taylor. Full credits at the end of this

12:06

episode for all the clips that we used

12:08

as always. Now, right at the top

12:11

of that clip, you can hear

12:13

her sort of

12:15

dismiss Otis,

12:18

who's gone there to pick her up, which

12:20

is what she asked for. But

12:22

he's come thinking it's a date, he's got flowers,

12:25

he's wearing like a musty old suit

12:27

that he's dug out of somewhere. And

12:30

he looks incredibly out of place, and she's almost

12:32

embarrassed of him. I'm

12:35

not sure, but there's definitely an

12:37

awkwardness, the way she sends him away.

12:39

Yeah, it's a very sweet

12:41

moment, really, because it is

12:43

very early on in their relationship before they

12:45

do know each other very well. And

12:48

she, this is one of the first

12:50

times when we see how alone

12:52

and vulnerable she really is, because she's got

12:54

no one to take her to have an abortion.

12:56

I mean, it's a really terrifying, frightening

12:59

time for somebody, and

13:01

they say, oh, you need somebody to pick you up. And she can't think

13:03

of anyone. She's got literally no one. She's got

13:05

no friends. Her mum and dad are

13:08

pissed off, her

13:09

brother's pissed off. And she has to

13:11

ask Otis. He's the only one that feels sort

13:13

of unthreatening enough to be able to share

13:16

this secret with him.

13:18

And I think she does. I think it's from that

13:20

moment where they start to see each other

13:23

a bit better, because she

13:25

asks him, I think, because she thinks he's so

13:27

unthreatening. But the way he is kind

13:30

to her, and he is there, and he waits,

13:32

is the beginning of the friendship. And

13:35

he stops being as frightened of her

13:37

because he sees that

13:39

she's in need of help. And that

13:41

woman, Sarah, that she just spoke with,

13:44

she says to her, I don't need a mum. But of course, that

13:46

is exactly

13:46

what she needs. And what she's been missing.

13:49

And what she's been missing, and it's really heart-rending.

13:51

And at the end of it, they end

13:53

up holding hands, and she gives her

13:55

her chocolate mousse, and it's like this little

13:57

touching. Yeah, we've been through something.

15:13

why

16:00

they're perceived by their friends is so important because

16:02

they are replacing the old family structure

16:04

with the new peer structure, which

16:07

is what they need to do. They need the, it's like the boot of the

16:09

bum to get them out

16:10

of the house. That's why it takes them two

16:12

hours to walk home from a school that's 10 minutes

16:14

away. And, you know, I

16:17

know like my younger, my older one's

16:19

not like them, a younger one, like that's

16:21

the phase, 14, 15, where it takes

16:23

two hours to walk home. And

16:25

some parents get really stressed about it, but I

16:28

really remember that period.

16:30

And I did exactly the same thing. And I think

16:32

it really feeds into

16:34

what you're just saying. You're

16:36

trying to find your place

16:38

in the world and you can't go back home

16:41

straight away because you're

16:43

playing with this peer culture

16:46

and this sort of,

16:48

it's not genuine independence because you do have

16:50

to go home, but it's like, how

16:52

long can we stretch this moment

16:54

out for? Absolutely, it's like experimenting

16:57

with being alone, but knowing you've got a safe

16:59

space to go back to. Absolutely. I

17:02

don't understand her and

17:04

Jackson though. Why does Jackson, I

17:07

don't really know where they like each other, but why does Jackson

17:09

like Maeve? I think he's

17:11

really attracted to her sort of, I

17:13

think he's sort of tantalized by the coolness and

17:15

the independence because he is not independent

17:18

at all. His parents, he's got two mums

17:20

and they are so pushy and so strict

17:22

and so demanding.

17:24

His white mums incredibly

17:26

pushy. Oh, she's awful. The

17:29

other one's like slightly more chills. A bit

17:31

more laid back, yeah. And he's a bit nerdy

17:33

really in a way, even though he's her boy,

17:35

he's quite preppy and he doesn't

17:38

do anything that isn't prescribed

17:40

really. So she's just a free spirit.

17:42

So I think he's really attracted

17:45

by what he's not allowed to have. And I think

17:47

she's attracted to him for

17:49

the sort of the same reasons in reverse.

17:52

She hasn't got to, she hasn't even got one

17:54

parent pushing her on and championing

17:57

her and saying, you can do this and we

17:59

want you to be the best. And when she goes

18:01

around for dinner, you know, she gets, she's

18:03

so heartbroken by hearing his mum say,

18:06

we're so proud of you and we love you

18:08

so much and seeing the happy family

18:10

photos. And it's so sad because

18:12

she hasn't got anyone pushing her on and

18:14

championing her. She actually runs away, right? And she has

18:16

to run away. She can't bury it, yeah. Which

18:19

again, you know, tells us why she's so defended

18:22

because it's so painful to think,

18:24

oh, I could have that. I could have a mum

18:26

or mums or anybody to love

18:29

me. And she

18:29

can't, she can't, she has to get out. She can't

18:32

bury it. It's an important moment because actually

18:35

the attraction that you're talking about that seems

18:37

to work both ways for them, from

18:39

that point on you realize it's quite a surface

18:42

thing. You know, Jackson wants this

18:44

kind of like cool outcast. She

18:46

wants this like together guy from a happy

18:48

background. When they actually meet in

18:51

her caravan,

18:52

he shows her

18:55

a bit more of his vulnerability which surprises

18:57

her. Yeah. I think the phrase

19:00

they use is

19:01

not so squeaky clean or not so shiny

19:03

and clean or something. They go onto

19:06

the sort of next level of connection

19:08

which is quite a sweet moment.

19:10

I think it's quite a big thing for Maeve to

19:12

understand that just because his family looks

19:14

perfect, there's a lot going on behind

19:16

the scenes. And I mean, he admits that he's,

19:19

I think he's been on anti-anxiety medication

19:21

since he was 11 and he feels really

19:23

pressurized with responsibility of

19:26

achieving everything his mums want him to achieve. And

19:29

I think he says he throws up every morning

19:32

out of fear. Yeah, terrible. I mean, this is an anxious

19:34

guy. And all

19:36

she can see is, oh, he's got what I haven't. He's

19:39

got supportive parents. But then she sees actually

19:40

that comes at a cost as well. Cause everything

19:42

does come at a cost. So

19:45

just as her freedom and independence

19:48

and coolness comes at a cost to her because she's

19:50

got no one to take to have an abortion or no

19:52

one to support her. So

19:55

neither is perfect.

19:56

No, no, but you know, the more you

19:58

see some of the central.

19:59

parents in this sort

20:02

of wide-ranging story, the

20:04

more you start thinking, oh fuck, maybe Maeve's

20:07

got the best deal. Because like poor

20:09

Adam with the giant cock, his

20:13

dad is horrible. His dad's the principal

20:16

as well, the head teacher.

20:17

Yeah, I think the lack of understanding

20:20

between the kids and all the parents in

20:22

their different ways is the reason why

20:24

the clinic sort of comes into being because

20:27

the kids do need to ask each other. And

20:30

I think that sort of Maeve's genius to

20:33

realize actually this lot

20:35

don't have anyone to talk to either. So actually

20:37

if we can put them with Otis and they could

20:39

share some of their fears, which

20:42

they all have. Because this time of being

20:44

a teenager and all these changes going on,

20:46

it is such a

20:47

rush and a thrill

20:50

and the reward centers

20:52

in their brain are completely firing on

20:54

all cylinders and being flooded with dopamine. That

20:57

brings a lot of fear in its wake because they don't know

20:59

who they are and they don't know what to do with all this

21:01

energy and desire

21:04

to get out there.

21:04

And the information that they're giving out as

21:06

well, the faith that they have to have in Otis,

21:09

is huge. One kid says, I fucked

21:12

a melon now it stings when I pee. And

21:14

he's got to trust that Otis

21:16

is not going to share that information because as

21:18

we find out very starkly,

21:21

private information of a sexual

21:23

nature at school is worth

21:25

more than any money in terms of

21:28

one-upmanship and cliques and bullying.

21:30

Yeah, it's an incredible currency.

21:33

I mean, Maeve, from the start,

21:34

she's got this reputation, she's called Cockbiter

21:37

and there's this moment where she

21:40

wants to help one of her worst bullies,

21:42

this girl Ruby, who's one of Anwar's bitches,

21:45

who is about to become the victim of revenge

21:48

porn.

21:49

And Otis can't understand why

21:51

the hell she wants to help this

21:53

girl who's been bullying her for the past few

21:55

years. And we can hear Maeve's reasoning

21:58

here.

21:59

I'm on your for Ruby. And

22:02

you're right, I was freaked out about Jackson's stupid family dinner,

22:04

but that's not why I'm here. Do

22:07

you know how long I've been called Cockbiter? Four

22:09

years. People I've never met

22:12

call me Cockbiter to my face. I

22:15

bit Simon Ferthesle's scrope. I had sex

22:17

with four guys at the same time. I fucked my second

22:19

cousin. I'll give you a hand job for a fiver

22:21

if you like.

22:23

Do you know how it started? Simon

22:26

tried to kiss me at Claire Tyler's 14th birthday. I

22:30

said no. So

22:32

he told everyone I'd given him a blow job, bit and he's dick. And

22:35

that was it. This kind

22:37

of thing sticks. And

22:39

it hurts and no one deserves to be shamed, not even Ruby.

22:42

You can never stop gossip and rumor at school.

22:45

It's this huge, unique village

22:47

where everybody has to go.

22:49

How can a teenager know

22:52

when to drop out of that or confront

22:55

it or say, hey, that's wrong, when

22:58

there's so much fear of ostracism when

23:00

you're a kid, just falling out of

23:02

the popular group.

23:04

Yeah, and I think what

23:06

is sad is that I think a lot of parents don't

23:09

realize how high those stakes

23:11

are. They just say, oh, for goodness sake, just

23:13

tell them or just don't worry about

23:16

what

23:16

other people think. In 10 years time,

23:18

you're gonna laugh at this, but that doesn't fucking matter

23:20

because right now it is the most important thing. It is their

23:22

world and it does feel like life or death

23:24

to not be accepted. And again,

23:27

this idea of status and where you

23:29

are in the group in evolutionary

23:32

terms, all that jostling,

23:34

you see it in other species

23:36

as well. You see it on sort of David Attenborough shows.

23:39

When the old patriarchal

23:41

matriarch of the tribe starts to

23:43

look a little bit on its

23:46

last legs, all of the adolescents,

23:48

they do start fighting and jostling for position.

23:51

And it's baked

23:51

in this need to not be ostracized

23:54

because if you're on the edge of the group, your

23:57

prey, you're gonna be picked off. And

23:59

actually we sort of...

23:59

We'll talk about this more next week,

24:02

but we sort of see that with Eric when he

24:04

tries to go off to the Hedwig and the Angry

24:07

Inch concert on his own. I'm such a sad episode.

24:09

And he gets terribly beaten

24:11

up. And this is what happens if you don't conform.

24:15

So it's really, really important to them.

24:17

All right, well, we're going to dig

24:19

even deeper in the second half after

24:22

the break. We're going to have a look

24:24

at what

24:25

some of the female friendships really

24:27

look like for the girls of Mordale

24:30

High. We'll dig a bit deeper

24:32

into revenge porn, a Ladygarden

24:34

version of I Am Spartacus, and

24:37

why Maeve isn't the only one struggling.

24:40

So stick around right where you are.

24:43

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27:44

Maeve deals with

27:46

boys quite well, but when you actually look at

27:49

a female friendships, relationships,

27:52

they seem quite thin on the ground. I mean, like

27:55

her best friend probably is,

27:58

what's her face? Amy. Amy. Yeah.

27:59

Yeah. Who's an idiot?

28:02

Yeah. Who's an absolute idiot? And like

28:04

self-professed. I'm not cussing her. She's like

28:06

a self-professed idiot. She's like, I don't know. I don't

28:08

know anything about anything. So she's

28:10

clearly not Maeve's intellectual

28:12

equal. And then, you know, the rest of the girls

28:15

that she's around are unbelievably

28:18

mean to her. So is she alone

28:20

there too in terms of female

28:23

camaraderie? I think she really is.

28:26

And I think it's so important because as we've just

28:28

said that she needs friends and she does not

28:30

have them. And Amy, not only

28:32

is she nowhere near her sort of intellectual

28:35

equal, she won't even admit to being her

28:37

friend. Right, yeah, because she's part of Anwar's...

28:39

Yes, part of the cool kids'

28:42

clique. And so she has to see

28:44

her in private, a bit like Jackson keeping her

28:47

quiet. So Maeve kind

28:49

of assumes that everybody wants to keep

28:51

her quiet. It's actually not true in Jackson's case,

28:54

but she's projecting her own shame about

28:56

all people think I'm really

28:59

poor and live on a caravan estate and I've

29:01

got no parents. And she projects

29:03

the shame that she feels. She assumes

29:05

that he will be ashamed of her. But

29:09

actually, when

29:11

the picture of Ruby's vagina gets

29:13

sent around, as we heard in the

29:15

clip, Maeve rushes to defend

29:17

her because she knows what it's like once you lose your

29:19

reputation or gain a reputation.

29:23

You're screwed really. So she shows

29:25

that she's got these other kids'

29:27

best interests at heart, even though they haven't got her

29:30

best interests at their heart. Although

29:32

Amy does come out and say, I'm your friend in the end.

29:35

She does declare herself to be

29:37

friends.

29:37

It's interesting the way that story

29:40

develops and reaches crescendo because

29:42

there's quite a big twist with it. We're

29:45

investigating all these boys, or Otis

29:47

and Maeve are investigating all these boys and questioning

29:49

them. Maeve becomes

29:52

sort of like John Luther all of a sudden, like throwing

29:54

boys up against lockers. Where

29:57

the hell is the phone? Where's the photo? Yeah.

31:59

I do not have a vagina. It's my vagina.

32:02

Please, would you all just sit

32:03

down? It's my vagina. It's my vagina.

32:05

It's my vagina. It's my vagina. It's my vagina.

32:08

It's my vagina. It's my vagina. You can't even say it. Shag

32:10

it. But it shows

32:12

the coming together. It shows that if

32:14

you let your guard down, if you say, look,

32:17

I'm suffering here, you

32:19

get that sense of coming together,

32:21

and the group will support you.

32:23

And again, another huge moment of

32:26

hope for a father of teenage girls. I

32:28

just thought, God, there's some life lessons

32:30

in this show. Yeah. So I

32:32

started talking to my older daughter. I

32:35

had a friend around last night. So these are two 17, 18-year-olds.

32:38

So I thought, I have to talk

32:41

to her about this show. I couldn't watch it with her. No.

32:43

I was going to ask that. Is this too

32:45

much ejaculation and penises

32:49

and boobs? I just got, oh, God,

32:51

no, I can't do it. But it

32:53

was fascinating talking to her about it. She was like, yeah, we

32:55

watch it. We find it really empowering. There's

32:58

all sorts of life lessons in there and ways

33:01

to deal with things. Even though it is this sort

33:03

of fantastical comedy, I think

33:06

its heart is so clearly in the right

33:08

place when it comes to the really serious

33:11

stuff. I think so. Do you know what I mean? It's

33:13

like, this is fucking serious now. And

33:15

without being preachy, because

33:18

it's so well written and you've got that humor,

33:20

like with the Spodocus moment, it

33:22

goes, look, imagine this. Imagine

33:25

if you pulled together

33:27

against a common enemy. Common

33:30

enemy is a bully, in this case,

33:32

revenge porn. Imagine if you

33:34

all pulled together. Everyone was on the same page.

33:37

That loses all its power right there

33:39

in that moment, that antagonist. It's

33:43

so true. And I think what is interesting

33:45

as well, although obviously bullying

33:47

and revenge porn isn't a purely sort

33:49

of female problem. In

33:52

this case, it is. Or a teenage problem. Adults

33:55

do the shit. Fucking grown adults

33:57

with supposedly mature brains do. I know. Disgraceful.

34:01

It is disgraceful. But what I think is interesting

34:03

is that they do make it quite

34:06

female-tastic in that

34:09

Otis doesn't get it. Maeve has to say to

34:11

him, oh, you're such a boy, you don't get it.

34:14

Because he can't see it from his perspective.

34:16

He doesn't know how important

34:18

it is to have,

34:20

you know, your reputation intact

34:22

in whatever reputation means nowadays.

34:25

It's not the same as it has in different decades.

34:28

And as we've already talked about, Maeve

34:30

knows what that's like.

34:32

Yeah, and within that world there is a male privilege,

34:34

definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. Boys,

34:38

and definitely not, I'm not saying they don't suffer,

34:40

but they're definitely not going to suffer that

34:42

kind of bullying on the same level.

34:44

No, I mean... It's just fact. It's

34:47

true, and Adam gets his dick out in the

34:49

middle of the

34:52

school dining room and shows it to everybody,

34:55

and he doesn't get anywhere near

34:57

the sort of disdain

34:58

or fear. He

35:00

wins an award. Yeah. Not

35:02

for his dick. Which is so huge that you can see

35:04

it from behind. Yeah. In

35:07

case you want to catch up on that episode. We'll do the credits

35:09

for all Jenna Taylor at the end of the show.

35:12

So does the teenage brain

35:14

need to mature for them to be

35:17

able to reach this moment of

35:20

clarity, of understanding that togetherness,

35:22

that openness, honesty,

35:25

as far as you can without making yourself vulnerable,

35:28

can help create a support network

35:31

for you? I mean...

35:32

Well, some people, as you've said, some people never get

35:34

there. They never learn, right? So maturity

35:36

is possibly not the right

35:39

word because we can see how Maeve

35:41

at 16 gets this, and

35:46

many people of 50 or 60 don't. So

35:51

what is happening is that this huge

35:53

process of pruning the old

35:56

neurons that are no longer needed

35:58

and strength...

35:59

I think it's called myelination, strengthening

36:03

the new neurons. So people get

36:05

a bit more set in their ways. And where you

36:07

focus your attention, those

36:10

neuronal pathways get stronger. So

36:12

actually, that's why being a teenager is

36:15

so important, because the more you focus

36:18

and the more you kind of reflect on

36:20

what you're doing, you're strengthening those pathways.

36:22

So you get better able to do it. So if you never strengthen

36:25

them, then you never get any sort of awareness

36:27

or reflective abilities. And

36:29

I think, again, that's why the clinic is so

36:31

important, because Otis is

36:33

encouraging them to think about

36:36

their behavior, and they're learning

36:38

about themselves. And the more they do that,

36:40

the more they're strengthening those neuronal pathways

36:43

of insight and awareness so that they can

36:45

then learn from experience. If you don't

36:47

strengthen them, you're never going to learn from experience, you're going

36:49

to keep making the same mistake.

36:51

Yeah. And ironically,

36:53

of course, Otis himself is

36:56

really struggling to make those connections

36:59

as we'll see and dig into in part

37:01

two of this very special shrink

37:04

the box. So by the end of series

37:07

one, what do we feel that Maeve

37:10

has learned? And like, has she progressed,

37:13

you know, from where we first meet her?

37:15

Yeah, I think she's realized

37:17

she's seen through this sort of myth of perfection

37:20

that everyone else, just because they've got two

37:22

parents and a home that's not a caravan

37:24

and no money worries, that

37:26

they haven't got it made, that it's

37:29

not really easy for them. She's seen that through

37:31

Jackson, I think. I think she's been

37:34

able to show some vulnerability to

37:36

Otis. She let him see where she

37:38

lived. She extrapolated

37:40

out to letting Jackson see where she lived eventually.

37:43

So she's showing that she isn't just a tough nut,

37:45

that

37:45

nothing hurts me. So she's

37:48

revealing more and they are revealing more

37:50

in turn. So I think

37:53

they are

37:54

learning more about themselves and learning more about each

37:56

other. And

37:58

she's able to finally have a friend. I

38:00

mean Otis is really good friends by

38:02

the end. And she's allowing herself

38:04

to think, oh, could he be more? I mean, she

38:06

hangs onto the jumper that she lends him

38:09

and she keeps it under her pillow. It's very sweet actually.

38:11

And she sort of sniffs it occasionally. And

38:13

I think even before she realizes what's happening,

38:16

she's sort of using him as a comfort blanket

38:18

and hugging the jumper to her.

38:21

And she's realizing I can't do it alone.

38:23

It was quite metaphorical that you need somebody

38:25

to take you home that the abortion clinic says.

38:28

Because she does, she needs somebody to

38:29

be there with her. And he is fulfilling that

38:32

function and they are getting closer because

38:34

of it. Yeah, I mean, it

38:36

is lovely to see that sort of growth.

38:39

And again, it sort of feeds into the whole

38:41

vibe of the show which I find

38:43

incredibly hopeful. It

38:45

seems to be an underlying thing

38:48

for those of us who are over 18, just like you and

38:50

Isha, that

38:52

says, don't give up on these guys, man. They're fucking

38:55

great people. They're potentially amazing

38:57

people if you support them and

39:00

give them space to grow

39:02

crucially and give them their privacy when they

39:04

need it and ask the difficult questions when

39:07

they need that too.

39:08

And just- And allow them to learn from their mistakes

39:11

as well. Absolutely. Cause it's

39:13

not just Otis that Maeve's getting closer

39:15

to. She's now got Amy openly

39:17

being her friend. Ruby doesn't hate her

39:19

as much. Ruby now has a reason to

39:22

be grateful to her. So yeah,

39:24

she is gathering in the tribe a little bit.

39:27

Yeah, genius concept for a show

39:29

really. I mean, I

39:31

remember when I worked briefly on

39:34

The Inbetweeners and I was saying

39:36

a similar thing to the writers of that. Like this,

39:38

you got a golden

39:41

egg here and they said, well, yeah, like who hasn't been

39:43

to school? Yes. And you're

39:45

like, yeah, good point. Like everybody

39:47

can relate in some terms. And then similarly

39:49

with sex, even if you've never had

39:52

it, you're thinking about it. So,

39:54

I mean putting those two things together

39:56

is kind of

39:57

genius. Two things we've all

39:59

dealt with. with us at some stage in some

40:01

very profound way. Great show

40:04

and we will dig even deeper next

40:06

week. And before you leave us, thank

40:09

you as always for your emails. Keep

40:11

sending in your suggestions, your thoughts to

40:14

shrinkthebox at sonymusic.com.

40:17

Jason's been in touch this week and

40:19

he says, Hi, Ben and Sash. I've

40:21

listened to your pod from the beginning. Can't tell you how enjoyable

40:23

and fascinating the episodes are. I

40:26

work as a mental health nurse and I've always been fascinated

40:28

by and believe a great deal

40:30

of compassion can be achieved by recognising

40:33

how individuals are shaped by their environments in

40:35

history.

40:36

I've encouraged a few other mental health professional colleagues

40:38

to listen as well, who now are also

40:40

well and truly hooked. That's good. That's good.

40:42

And we're getting a lot more professionals. I

40:45

do like that. And the amount of times he uses

40:47

the word fascinating in that first paragraph,

40:50

I can tell you the listeners to show because I think that's probably

40:52

the word I used most in the first three

40:54

episodes.

40:54

But the human mind is fascinating. Relationships

40:57

are fascinating. Absolutely. As

41:00

is osmosis. The suggestion,

41:02

Jason continues, that I have is my

41:05

favourite fictional character of all time and

41:07

a giant of modern culture. Despite

41:09

his many obvious flaws and vulnerabilities, there's

41:11

so much that is almost innocent and pure

41:14

in many ways to aspire to. And

41:16

that man

41:17

is Homer Simpson. And

41:20

I feel it would be a worthy testament to his legend

41:22

to have him drop by for a session on your couch. Keep

41:24

up the fab work, Jason. We have talked

41:27

about Homer Simpson. Oh, I would

41:29

love to do Homer. Homer, Homer

41:31

Simpson, he's the greatest guy

41:33

in history. From

41:36

the town of Springfield, he's

41:38

about to hit a chestnut tree. Do

41:42

follow us on Apple Podcasts,

41:45

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42:12

Thanks to our production team, Lily

42:14

Hambly on production management, assistant

42:16

producer is Marnie Woodmead, social media

42:18

is Jonathan Imieri, studio engineer is Matias

42:20

Torres-Soleil, and the mix engineer is

42:22

John Scott. Producers for this episode, Michael

42:25

Dale, and senior producer

42:27

is Selena Ream, exec producer Simon

42:29

Poole, and Shrink the Box is a Sony Music

42:32

Entertainment production. Now,

42:35

Sasha,

42:36

we've already sort of teased it. This

42:38

is a two-parter, so it's not a huge reveal,

42:40

but who are we going to dig into next time?

42:42

Well, I think we should look more closely at

42:44

the boys, Otis, Eric and Adam,

42:46

and their different concerns. Ah,

42:49

okay, so

42:49

we're going to look at Adam too. All right, cool,

42:51

cool. So all the boys. He could all be in the

42:54

mix because they all have very different concerns

42:57

about the kind of man they want to be

42:59

and the different role models, for good

43:02

and ill, that each of them has in their very

43:04

different fathers. So let's have

43:06

a listen.

43:06

I'm sorry, dude. This thing

43:09

came up with Maeve in the clinic. You

43:11

are so self-centred. You don't care about anyone

43:13

but yourself.

43:14

That's not fair.

43:17

Eric, why are you so angry? Because

43:19

we've been friends since we were nine years old and

43:21

you've abandoned me for someone that you've known for five seconds.

43:25

You've changed, man. The old Otis would never do

43:27

that. I rang your mum to

43:29

pick me up because this is where I felt safe. I

43:34

think I made a mistake. Oh,

43:37

rare moment there where the best

43:39

mates fall out. I know that people

43:42

often cite Eric as a favourite character, just

43:44

like me. But Adam also,

43:47

as we touched upon briefly, has a

43:49

lot going on. And

43:52

his character arc is crazy. Maybe

43:55

he has the biggest journey. I don't know.

43:57

Well, I think they all do.

43:59

Adam starts from a very sad,

44:03

difficult place because he's got this really

44:05

awful, strict, uncaring father

44:07

who's also the headmaster. So he's got like the double

44:09

whammy of him at home and at

44:11

school. And he is so rigid,

44:14

refuses to show any vulnerability. And

44:16

that's what Adam is up against. So he's got a long

44:19

way to go as we see. And

44:22

then we've got Eric, who's also got a disapproving

44:25

father, but his father does show

44:27

some ability to show

44:29

vulnerability,

44:29

to change, to listen. So

44:33

he's very different. And then Otis's

44:36

dad, who I'm looking forward to talking to, who

44:38

is also a therapist, also a sex

44:40

therapist.

44:41

I can't wait to hear your take on the two

44:43

therapists in this show because,

44:46

wow. Yeah. Well,

44:48

we're gonna find out very soon.

44:50

Therapists are people too. They

44:52

are. Therapists are people too with

44:54

their own genitalia. Well,

44:57

maybe some of them. To

44:59

be used at will, as we'll find out next

45:01

week. All right, enough of that,

45:03

Sash. We'll dig in again very

45:06

soon. Great to see you. See you then.

45:08

Bye.

45:09

Ta-da.

45:18

All right, time now for the Sex Education Credits, as

45:20

promised, for Series 1, created by Laurie Nunn.

45:23

At the top where we heard Maeve fighting to save her place

45:25

at Mordell, that was episode eight, starring

45:27

Emma Mackey as Maeve Wiley, and

45:30

Alastair Petrie as Mr. Groff,

45:32

written by Laurie Nunn and directed by Kate Herron.

45:35

Maeve explaining why no one deserved to be shamed was

45:37

episode four, written by Laura Neale and Laurie Nunn,

45:39

directed by Ben Taylor. The Spartacus

45:42

Moment and Otis and Eric arguing

45:44

at the end of both episode five, written by

45:46

Bisha K. Ali, Sophie Goodhart,

45:49

Laura Hunter and Laurie Nunn. And it was directed

45:51

by Kate Herron. Sex Education

45:53

was made by Eleven and distributed by Netflix. Thanks

45:56

for listening and we'll see

45:57

you next week.