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disease.

0:44

Hey,

0:44

it's Ben Bailey-Smith here. And Sasha Bates.

0:47

And as season one draws to a close

0:49

of the podcast that puts fictional

0:52

TV characters into therapy, here's a few

0:54

special bonus episodes that

0:57

we're going to chuck out there for you just to answer

0:59

some of your questions and explore a little bit deeper

1:01

because we just haven't got that kind of time, Sasha, frankly,

1:04

have we? We haven't. In a normal

1:06

episode. There's too much to talk about. So coming

1:08

up, we're going to look at Stans, you know, obsessive

1:10

fans. We're going to look at how problematic characters

1:13

get away with much, much

1:14

more because they're just basically just buff.

1:17

And Seinfeld in an alternative

1:20

universe. As ever, you

1:22

can expect some naughty words and spoiler

1:24

filled chat and all of that. to

1:27

shrink the inbox.

1:29

All

1:36

right, let's kick off with some suggestions. We

1:39

love getting them. This is from Switzerland,

1:41

our first Swiss correspondent

1:43

is Lisa.

1:45

And she says, Hello, I'd really

1:47

love for you to talk about Dre, Dominique Fishback

1:49

from the Amazon miniseries Swarm.

1:52

So a comedy horror thriller vibe. Have you

1:54

seen this? I have not heard of it. OK,

1:57

she says it follows Dre, who's

1:59

a young woman. whose obsession

2:01

with a pop star takes a dark turn.

2:04

Ooh, I like the sound of that. It's a really dark,

2:06

interesting story about how Stan culture

2:08

goes too far. It's about a broken

2:10

family dynamics and how destructive grief can become.

2:13

Thanks and keep up the good work. All right. There's

2:16

a couple of things in there. Comedy

2:19

horrors, obviously, you know, can

2:23

be big on the psychology, but most of the time they

2:25

are not. I mean, I'm thinking there's definitely

2:27

attempts, like some of

2:29

the stuff your man Jordan Peele does. I think

2:32

he's definitely sort of slots into that. Oh,

2:34

there's laughs and there's horrific things,

2:37

and I want it to mean this thing about our

2:39

psyche. Sometimes gets it right, sometimes

2:41

doesn't. The other thing that's in this is

2:43

the mention of Stan's.

2:45

Have you ever had a Stan? I did

2:47

once, yeah. I was in mumbles.

2:50

There's a place, it's in Wales,

2:53

it's called Mumbles. It's like a little coastal

2:55

town. And I went there

2:57

to do a gig once. This is in

2:59

my days of being like a part-time

3:03

underground rapper, youth

3:05

worker by day. So I'm not making any

3:07

money. I'm not doing big gigs or

3:09

anything like that. I'm just taking what I can get and I get offered

3:11

a gig that's

3:12

half decent money. I guess I'll probably be

3:14

like a hundred pounds or something. But

3:17

I still got drive to fucking mumbles with

3:19

my DJ. And I

3:22

get there and of course no one's at the

3:24

gig. It's like in the back of a,

3:26

I don't

3:27

know what it was. It looked like an amusement

3:29

arcade or something like that. It's in the back room. It

3:32

sounds very Gavin and Tracy so far. There's no

3:34

stage. There's a few rugby

3:37

boys who wandered in and it was, ahhhhh, there's

3:40

a bit of that. Just

3:41

got through it. And then I was like, all right,

3:43

can we just go to the hotel? And the guy

3:46

who'd booked me, he was like, oh yeah. So there's

3:49

not really a lot of options this

3:51

weekend, but don't worry because I've got you basically self-contained.

3:54

It's like on top of my flat.

3:56

It's fine. And I was like, okay. And my

3:58

DJ.

3:59

He's like, yeah, I mean, there

4:02

should be... I was just like, this is not

4:04

going well at all. We walk into the flat.

4:08

And in the living room,

4:10

there's like a mantelpiece

4:12

above the fire. And bear in mind,

4:14

I'm very underground. People don't really

4:16

know who I am. This is like very

4:18

early 2000s. He's got like

4:21

my mixtape that I put out. He's got

4:23

like my first single that I put out. He's

4:26

got a couple of pictures of me. Oh, God.

4:28

And they're all on the mantelpiece. And then there's a Sharpie

4:31

and it's just it looks like something

4:33

about the vibe of it, like how they're all symmetrically

4:35

laid out. And then the Sharpie at the end, I just

4:38

got this image of him

4:40

looking at the Sharpie and then repositioning

4:42

it and then positioning it again and then positioning it again

4:45

and then come in to meet me. And it just

4:47

freaked me out. And I was like, I looked to my DJ

4:49

and he was just like, we're not fucking

4:52

saying it. And that's terrifying.

4:54

We drove all the way back from Wales.

4:57

Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, at this point,

4:59

we're like, we're leaving. Yeah, no, I don't blame you.

5:01

One in the morning or something. That's horrific. So

5:04

as close as I got to a stand. But, you know, there

5:07

is a hip hop origin to stand

5:09

because I guess some people miss it. But

5:12

most people will know it comes from the Eminem song.

5:14

Yeah. Stan about an obsessive

5:16

fan and Eminem being such

5:18

a, you know, a bigger

5:20

pop cultural influence than half

5:23

the shows we've talked about in this entire series

5:26

has

5:27

created a word that's entered the lexicon,

5:29

which is always an

5:31

interesting thing. When I think

5:33

about it in screen terms, I

5:36

think of King of Comedy.

5:38

Oh, yeah. That movie? Yes, yes. Yeah,

5:41

of course. And he's like a massive

5:43

fan of Jerry Lewis, who's playing

5:45

us. Is he playing himself? Who's playing like a Jerry Lewis

5:48

kite?

5:48

I can't remember so long ago. It's worth

5:50

rewatching. Really, really fucking

5:52

creepy. What do you think is in

5:54

the psyche where it spills

5:57

over into that I need to cross this boundary

5:59

and this person?

5:59

needs to acknowledge me. We

6:02

need to have this moment together. Like, where

6:05

does that come from? There's a novel

6:07

by Ian McEwen called Enduring Love,

6:09

where they have a similar situation, where

6:12

a character played by Rhys Ifanz becomes

6:14

obsessed with somebody. And it's not a famous person,

6:17

I don't think, if I remember the book

6:19

and the film rightly. But

6:21

yeah, people can get really

6:23

latched on. It's like they represent

6:26

everything that they want in their life, and

6:28

they can't separate out their

6:30

desire for that person from any

6:32

sort of reality. So every time the

6:34

person says, I don't want you, you are

6:36

not my boyfriend or

6:38

girlfriend, they just take

6:40

it to me and they're playing hard to get. And

6:43

I mean, it happens in real life as well,

6:45

not just with fans. But

6:48

it's a sort of an idealization of an

6:50

image of what you want the person to be. You

6:52

can't distinguish the representation of what

6:54

you want them to be from the fact that they are a real

6:57

person, with their own

6:59

wants and hopes and desires. Right,

7:01

it is interesting, isn't it? That your insecurities

7:04

can manifest themselves in believing

7:06

that this

7:07

unattainable person could... It's like the ultimate

7:10

object... ... fill a little gap. Yeah, it's like the ultimate objectification

7:13

of somebody. You are what I need you to be,

7:15

and your own desire for me, or

7:18

even your ability to know that I exist

7:21

is irrelevant because I have decided that

7:23

that is what you need to be.

7:24

I was obsessed with so many different

7:28

celebrities, actors, singers, in

7:32

that stage of life when you really get deep into

7:34

it, when you're a teenager, right? Like a young teen, 13, 14, 15.

7:38

But I didn't even write to... You remember

7:40

fan clubs? Yes, no. I didn't even do that. I was just like,

7:43

that's too far. I mean, I'm obsessed with

7:45

it. I've got the posters and everything. I'm not gonna fucking

7:47

try and talk to them. No.

7:48

No, well, I mean, that's healthy

7:50

to be able to understand that just because you love

7:52

them doesn't mean that they're gonna love you back.

7:54

That's the thing, right? That's exactly what I thought. Like

7:56

the fear of like, what if they're just really

7:59

rude or they just like... brush past me. Well,

8:01

they do say don't ever meet your heroes, don't

8:03

they? They do. And like, as

8:06

I've got an order and have met heroes,

8:10

I met one very recently. I was

8:12

a huge gangster fan when I was

8:14

a teenager, and I eventually met their

8:16

producer, DJ Premier,

8:19

and he was bloody

8:21

lovely. Oh, good. Yeah. That's nice

8:23

to hear. Really nice. Lovely.

8:26

So sometimes meet your heroes. Just judge

8:28

it in the moment, is what I say. Do

8:30

you know what I mean? Yeah. So as you look over

8:32

and someone's like, I don't know,

8:34

in a domestic with their kids, you think, this

8:37

is not the time to say hello to Tom Hanks. Yeah,

8:42

play it by ear. I've actually got one here from Avital,

8:44

which kind of looks at fame

8:47

from the inside. This is an email from Vancouver,

8:49

all the way from Vancouver. And Avital says, hello,

8:52

first heard of your show in a Guardian article. It's very

8:54

highbrow. Yes. I like the fact that-

8:57

For a couple of people to swear and talk about

9:00

dreams and sex and

9:03

killing and drugs. And now I'm hooked.

9:05

I'm recommending it to everyone. One show I'd

9:07

love to see your take on is I Hate

9:09

Suzy. Yes. Yeah. And it's another one I need to see. Yeah,

9:11

it's great. I loved it. Billy

9:14

Piper's breakdown is depicted in an unreal,

9:16

fantastical, visually arresting manner that I've

9:18

never seen before. Thanks, Avital.

9:20

Yeah. I mean, one of the things in I Hate Suzy is

9:23

her relationship with fame. Do you ever

9:25

get stopped on the street? I mean, what's your level

9:27

of- Every day. Every single day. Really?

9:29

And how do you cope with that?

9:30

It might not be 10 times a day. It might

9:32

just be once a day or twice a day. But it happens every- It's

9:35

every single day. Wow. Does that

9:37

feel oppressive? I think that would drive me up

9:39

the wall. Something, it depends on your

9:41

mood and what you're doing. My

9:43

brother had written a little play and I

9:45

was worried that I was going to miss it. So I was

9:47

hurrying into this

9:49

venue. It was one of those plays

9:51

where it's like above a bar. Oh yeah. And you have

9:53

to go through the bar. And I went

9:55

in and it just happened immediately.

9:57

And I was just like, I really don't- of

10:00

trying for a stop and chat and photos.

10:02

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's really inconvenient.

10:05

I was really like, like, someone shouted

10:07

out my name and I was like, hey, how you doing? You

10:09

know, showbiz smile. And I was like,

10:11

I'm late for a play. I just said it because I was like,

10:14

that's probably the quickest way. It's every day. 99% of

10:16

the time, it's, yeah, it's

10:18

all really

10:20

nice and friendly. But

10:22

my favorite people who stop me are the ones that

10:25

don't, they don't stop walking. They don't

10:27

break stride. Right. Hey man, keep doing what

10:29

you're doing. They're amazing.

10:31

Those guys, if you're one of them,

10:33

I'm just sending my love out to you now. You

10:36

don't, you don't waste my time, but the

10:38

reason I respect you even more is because you don't want me to

10:40

waste your time. You got shit to do. I

10:42

love that. Get away there.

10:45

Lovely affirmation. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

10:47

What you mean to people. That's really nice. All

10:50

right, this could end up being a question for you actually,

10:52

Sasha. Okay. This email is

10:54

from Ali, who says they are formerly of Dalston.

10:57

Okay. Hey Ben and Sasha, I've been

10:59

loving your podcast since hearing about it. When

11:01

Ben's inheritance tracks were played on radio

11:03

for, oh yeah, I remember that. I gave

11:05

a big plug. I just plugged the show over. Good.

11:08

Yeah. And I'm very excited to hear

11:11

that Top Boy was next on your list. Although

11:13

I think Sully would be a much more complex,

11:16

interesting and conflicted subject for your analysis

11:18

than Jamie. Maybe too much for a 25 minute

11:20

session. Following Ben's comments

11:23

about the male characters and this is us being too ripped

11:25

to identify with. I have a similar

11:27

feeling about the main characters in Top Boy,

11:29

a show I love. Don't get me wrong. Okay.

11:32

I'm sorry to interject onto the email, but in Top Boy, everyone's

11:34

a lot younger. Yeah, so yeah.

11:37

They tend to be boys like they're

11:39

running around doing this. This is us. There's

11:41

just no reason for these middle aged

11:44

men older than me. Anyway, I

11:46

think it'd be much harder to root for the psychopaths

11:49

that are Duchain, Sully and Jamie if they weren't

11:51

also gorgeous looking. Interesting,

11:53

Ali. Okay. But of course their lovely

11:55

faces are part of the pleasure of watching the show, aren't they?

11:57

Can't wait to hear what you've got coming up.

12:00

and thanks again for a great listen, cheers, Ali. Okay,

12:03

an interesting point that sort of crept out of

12:05

this, Ash, which is why I think it might be a question

12:07

for

12:08

you. Why do we root for the psychopaths

12:10

and why are producers

12:12

making psychopaths hot? Well,

12:14

I think that... I'm looking at you, you.

12:16

Well,

12:18

yes, exactly. Well, I think they

12:21

have to make them good looking in a TV

12:23

show, because otherwise we wouldn't root for

12:25

them, because I think psychopaths are really hard

12:27

to root for in real life, because

12:29

they've got nothing going for them. Once

12:32

you get beyond the surface charm, I mean, they are very

12:34

charming. That's how they get away with it. But

12:36

then behind that, when you realise that there is nothing...

12:38

Yeah,

12:38

I remember this is why you... When

12:41

we first thought about doing... Killing

12:43

Eve. Killing Eve. I was thinking, oh yeah, we got

12:45

to do Villanelle. Villanelle the villain.

12:47

And you were like, no, because there's nothing to dig

12:50

into. No. She's a psycho, she has no emotions.

12:52

Yes, but she's absolutely gorgeous and wears

12:54

lovely outfits, and she's also

12:56

very funny. And of course, she's written by Phoebe

12:58

Waller-Bridge. But I think in TV shows,

13:01

it is very different, because they have to make them

13:03

watchable and you have to root for them.

13:05

I don't know how many real life psychopaths are

13:08

gorgeous. I don't know any real life

13:10

psychopaths. I think it's

13:12

one of those TV tropes. This is one

13:15

of those movie tropes. A bit of a dramatic license. Yeah. Although

13:19

I suppose narcissism is

13:21

a big part of it, isn't it? So maybe there's, well-cuffered

13:26

psychos out there. Let us know if it's one of

13:28

those. All

13:30

right, so coming up after the break, we're going to be looking at Seinfeld

13:33

a bit more, wondering if the characters

13:35

weren't quite as selfish. And a few more

13:37

of your favourite people to cover, of course. So

13:39

we'll see you after the ads, unless you, very

13:42

wisely I must say, subscribe to the Take

13:44

channel, in which case we'll be back right after

13:46

this little musical duty.

13:56

Alright,

14:01

so that background noise, you can't hear that right?

14:03

That I can hear, is that just... What?

14:07

Is that Selena?

14:10

Ah yeah, there we go. Okay. Hey,

14:14

it's Ben here from Shrink The Box. Now this episode

14:17

is sponsored by BetterHelp. And sometimes

14:20

life can feel a bit overwhelming. I know,

14:22

juggling work, family, and keeping

14:24

on top of TV's most chaotic characters

14:26

can feel like a bit of a challenge. But

14:28

whatever it is for you, I can promise you I've tried BetterHelp,

14:31

and I know first hand how helpful therapy

14:33

can be to access the best version

14:36

of yourself. And look,

14:38

therapy isn't just for those who've experienced

14:40

trauma. It can be about finding

14:43

ways to balance those everyday stresses in a

14:45

positive way.

14:46

I know sometimes you look at your schedule for

14:48

the week and wonder where you could possibly find time,

14:51

but BetterHelp fits around you. It's entirely

14:53

online.

14:54

It's designed to be convenient and

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flexible. So let therapy be your

14:58

map. With BetterHelp, visit

15:00

betterhelp.com slash shrinkthebox today

15:03

to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com

15:08

slash shrinkthebox.

15:11

I'm gonna go once more. Hey,

15:19

it's Ben here from Shrink The Box. And this

15:21

episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

15:24

Now, sometimes life can feel

15:26

a bit overwhelming. And

15:28

I feel it sometimes, juggling work and family,

15:31

and of course keeping on top of your favourite

15:34

TV characters can feel like a

15:36

bit of a challenge. But whatever

15:38

it feels like for you, I can promise you I've tried

15:40

BetterHelp, and I know first hand

15:43

how helpful therapy can be to

15:45

access the best version of yourself.

15:48

And I also know therapy is not just

15:51

for those who've experienced trauma. It can

15:53

just be about finding ways to balance

15:55

your everyday stresses, in a

15:58

positive way,

15:59

that helps you.

15:59

you move forward. And I know sometimes

16:02

you look at your schedule for the week and you think,

16:04

I can't fit this in, it's impossible. But BetterHelp

16:07

will work around you and it will fit in what

16:09

you need, when you need. It's completely online

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16:15

So let therapy be your map with BetterHelp.

16:18

Visit betterhelp.com slash shrink the box today

16:20

to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp,

16:23

H-E-L-P.com slash shrink

16:25

the box.

16:29

A couple there. Time

16:35

wise, is it okay? Fits

16:37

in time wise. Do you

16:49

want a quick one, really fast one? Yeah, absolutely.

16:52

Okay, here we go.

16:59

Hey, it's Ben here from Shrink The Box. Now this episode

17:01

is sponsored by BetterHelp and we know that

17:04

life can be a bit overwhelming sometimes.

17:06

I know juggling work, family, keeping on top of

17:08

TV's most chaotic characters, of course,

17:11

can feel like a bit of a challenge. But whatever it is

17:13

for you, I can promise you I've tried BetterHelp. I

17:15

know firsthand how helpful therapy can be

17:18

to access the best version of yourself. And look,

17:20

therapy isn't just for those who've experienced trauma. It

17:22

can be about finding ways to balance those

17:25

everyday stresses in a positive way. And

17:27

I know that sometimes you look at your schedule for the week

17:29

and think, oh, how can I possibly fit this in? But

17:31

BetterHelp will fit in around you. It's

17:33

entirely online and designed to be convenient

17:36

and flexible. So let therapy be your map

17:38

with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com

17:41

slash shrink the box today to get 10% off

17:43

your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com

17:47

slash shrink the box.

17:56

You're so good at that. You're

18:00

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18:02

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All

18:50

right, and we are right back as promised. We've

18:52

got a regular emailer, Dash.

18:55

We got someone who actually got in touch more

18:58

than once. Oh, the recivitist. This

19:01

is Stu from Suffolk, Virginia. Not

19:03

on the East Coast of the UK. He's

19:06

got in touch before and he does have a good

19:09

way

19:09

of words, so we have to include this email. Stu

19:13

says, hello, Ben, Sasha, and the STB production team. I'm

19:16

a few eps behind and just listened

19:18

to the George Costanza episode this morning. I too find

19:21

George a bit uncomfortably relatable

19:23

in how the slightest thing can spiral me out if I don't

19:25

catch it. And self-regulate,

19:28

it's just so easy to let the mildest anxiety

19:30

stress have

19:32

become a mental mountain. You

19:35

touch briefly on Jerry winding him up

19:37

at one point. He's a very good guy.

19:40

You touch briefly on Jerry winding him

19:42

up at one point, and I'm glad you pointed that out. In

19:45

a kinder show,

19:46

Jerry and George would both have an arc where they

19:48

both grow out of these traits. I can imagine

19:51

a Schitt's Creek-esque Seinfeld where

19:53

George's fiancé maybe gets sick but doesn't

19:56

die, and he learns how to process hard

19:58

things without spinning out.

19:59

Jerry even is able to drop

20:02

his detachment and be genuinely supportive

20:04

of his friend. That would of course be an entirely

20:06

different show, but in the non-fiction world,

20:09

it's what I would hope for.

20:10

You're mentioning how many people watch

20:13

the series finale made me think of the finale of

20:15

another earlier sitcom that

20:17

actually set and still holds, I believe, the record

20:20

for the most watched broadcast in

20:22

America that isn't news or football, which

20:25

is MASH. Oh, lovely MASH.

20:27

Oh man, I grew up watching this show in syndication

20:30

and the 4,077th is near and dear to me. I

20:35

think there would be a lot to dive into here. The

20:37

show takes several different personalities from militant

20:39

army lifers to zany rebellious draughty

20:41

doctors, throws them into an impossible situation,

20:44

a medical outpost for casualties in the Korean War,

20:46

and stirs week after

20:48

week.

20:50

I'd love to hear your thoughts on Major Houlihan's insistence

20:52

on standard operating procedure and following orders

20:55

and the chain of command in the middle of absolute chaos.

20:57

Or Hawkeye's practical jokes and snide commentary

21:00

deflecting how torn a party is over the carnage

21:02

he can't make sense of and can't do anything about.

21:04

It's a great show and has some good potential

21:07

clients in my humble opinion. Thank

21:09

you for this show. I'm enjoying it so much.

21:11

Well, I mean, what an argument for

21:13

MASH. And I mean, it'd

21:15

be great. I mean, from the start, I've been wanting to see how

21:17

far back we might go because I think

21:20

the oldest show we've done is probably Friends.

21:23

I think Seinfeld predates. Oh, no,

21:25

wait, Seinfeld, of course. Yeah, Seinfeld started in

21:27

the eighties, didn't it? Eight, nine? I

21:29

think it did. Yeah. So I

21:31

think it's the same year as The Simpsons. You're right. Yeah.

21:34

So 89 is the furthest we've gone back. So it'd be great to go back

21:36

to something even older. I watch MASH as a child

21:39

as well, but not, it wouldn't have been in syndication.

21:41

It would have been

21:43

like a huge rerun for

21:45

us for some reason because

21:48

presumably it started in the seventies. Yeah.

21:51

I don't know. I think my history, my grasp of history

21:54

is pretty full. In my mind, it doesn't look like the eighties,

21:56

MASH. Maybe it ended in the eighties.

21:59

I think I was quite... young when I watched it.

22:01

I was young, but I enjoyed it. I liked

22:03

it. Because there was a guy who like, was it Clinger?

22:06

Yeah. Sort of the kind of clown. He reminded

22:08

me of Animal from The Muppets

22:10

for some reason. Yeah. But

22:12

yeah, that'd be weird throwback,

22:14

wouldn't it, if we did Mash? Was it Mash? Was

22:17

it Clinger who kept

22:19

trying to pretend to be mad

22:22

in order to get said tone? That's right.

22:23

So he like, you know, he dressed

22:26

like crazy, put on like lipstick or something,

22:28

or just come out in his pants. So he was just always

22:30

trying something different.

22:31

Yeah. And they never did send him home

22:33

because they thought that it was a bit like that Catch-22

22:36

where, you know, if you, if

22:39

you recognize that you're mad, then you're sane enough

22:41

to stay or

22:41

something. But yeah, I love that

22:44

show. Yeah. All right. Great shout.

22:46

Thank you, Stu. Who's this one from

22:48

Kerry Hagen? Oh, you

22:50

like this. A teacher of English for years

22:52

nine to 13 at the Co-educational

22:55

Boarding and Day School

22:57

in Wanganui, New

22:59

Zealand.

23:00

Kerry says, I often use

23:02

your show to spark discussions of literary

23:04

characters in my senior English classes. I

23:06

find it interesting that so many of our

23:08

modern protagonists are so unlikable. And I

23:10

wonder what that says about modern society.

23:13

Now I know she's not strictly a TV character,

23:15

but have you considered Abigail Williams

23:17

from Arthur Miller's The Crucible?

23:20

Well, we haven't because she's not strictly a TV

23:22

character, but we would if

23:24

they make a TV series out of it. We would.

23:27

I think my takeaway from that email is that

23:29

we're being played in schools in

23:32

New Zealand.

23:32

I know. Amazing. Amazing.

23:35

I love that. I'm hoping

23:37

that Kerry edits out the swearing.

23:41

Otherwise we're going to get an email from

23:43

whatever they call head teachers in

23:45

Wanganui. But The Crucible

23:48

is fascinating. I mean, all of Arthur Miller's

23:50

work is fascinating. It would be

23:53

great if it did become a TV show. But

23:55

yeah, it's on. There's a stage

23:58

version on In London at the moment.

23:59

I'd love to see, I haven't

24:02

been to it, but I'd love to see how they,

24:04

you know, what the current take on it

24:07

is because that, it's something,

24:09

I don't know, to me, there's something a bit social

24:11

media-like about it in that sense

24:14

of somebody getting an idea and it's spreading

24:16

like wildfire and everybody leaping

24:18

on that bandwagon. And it's

24:20

not that similar, the witch hunts and

24:22

the cancel culture and the, just

24:25

that absolute piling in on somebody

24:27

who's- The

24:27

great works always, they find a new relevance,

24:30

they come around again, I think. Yeah,

24:32

they really do. So, I don't know if the current

24:34

production would have any of that

24:37

resonance in it, but that's just what occurs to

24:39

me, that predisposition, I guess, that

24:41

goes from back then to now,

24:44

to want to be part of a sort of obeying

24:46

horde who kind of points the

24:49

finger at one person.

24:50

Oi, oi, oi. We

24:52

got another Ben

24:53

who says he's in a markedly

24:55

unexotic but currently very sunny Birmingham.

24:58

You take that really, wouldn't you? As long

25:01

as it's sunny.

25:02

A, B, B, S and S, B. I

25:04

only heard about this podcast thanks to

25:06

Ben's appearance on Radio X. Look,

25:08

my plugging's going so well. It's working. I don't

25:10

just do Radio 4, I do Radio X. I'll do

25:13

anyway. Like if I'm on, I'm talking about Shrink the Box.

25:15

Great. It works. It does,

25:17

keep at it. I knew it was going

25:19

to be the one for me.

25:21

Since then I've listened to almost all the episodes,

25:23

Skip Bloodline and Happy Valley because I've not seen those shows yet.

25:26

Although, that's a good shout. I don't think

25:28

I'd want to listen to our Bloodline one if

25:30

I hadn't watched Bloodline.

25:31

No, although a friend of mine did

25:33

and it made her go back and watch it even though

25:35

we'd done all the spoilers. Oh wow, going off on that.

25:38

But I think it's better not to,

25:40

but it's great to hear that you can listen.

25:42

Absolutely. Even without having seen the show.

25:44

And Ben will be back once he's watched

25:46

those. He says, clearly we

25:48

have very similar tastes in TV because I've seen all the others.

25:51

I think it's becoming clearer that we're living

25:53

in a golden age of television, typified by shows

25:56

that center around complex and well-rounded characters.

25:58

And I think this podcast is the perfect way to do it.

25:59

of exploring them. Every episode of

26:02

Shrink the Boxes made me want to go back and watch those shows

26:04

again, which I think is a testament to how good

26:06

you two both are at bringing their richness

26:08

to life. Here's

26:10

some character thoughts from Ben.

26:13

Dozens I'd like you to hear about. Curtain

26:15

from this country. Carrie

26:18

from Homeland. Anyone

26:20

but especially Shauna from

26:23

Yellow Jackets would be perfect. I

26:25

think I also suggested Yellow Jackets

26:27

early on. Not seen. He

26:29

says because of the formative trauma and the

26:32

results. 25 years later. Joe

26:34

Goldberg from You. No, not for

26:37

me. No psychopaths. Sleep boring.

26:40

Okay, but I appreciate Ben and I love

26:42

the love the love. He's got another,

26:44

he's got one more suggestion. Homer

26:46

Simpson. The ultimate. When Homer

26:49

keeps coming back and I think we can't

26:51

ignore him for much longer. I'd

26:53

love to see him pop up in season two.

26:56

And if we do Homer Simpson, that would be our joint

26:59

oldest alongside the 89 Seinfeld.

27:01

So there we go.

27:02

We are working our way back. But

27:04

it shows the quality that they're still enduring

27:07

now that these shows start is in the 80s and

27:09

we're still talking about them. Oh man. We're still watching

27:11

them. Absolutely. The quality of the writing

27:13

and the quality of the characters. Those are the two

27:16

key things that keeps it going. It's interesting

27:18

that he says that we're living in a

27:20

golden age of television. I think that's

27:23

at threat with

27:25

the way the industry's going at the moment.

27:28

I mean, the writers have been on strike for half this

27:31

series that we've been celebrating writers.

27:33

Yeah. Writers have been on strike. Yeah.

27:35

And the actors have just joined. And now the actors

27:37

have joined and you know, we've got

27:39

to be careful because we love all this content.

27:42

But if we don't support the industry

27:44

properly, all that's going to be left of your golden

27:46

era of television is going to be fucking cookery

27:49

shows, reality shows. And

27:51

that leaves me and Sasha without a podcast. We'll

27:54

just have to work backwards. We'll

27:56

be doing I Love Fucking Lucy.

27:58

Yeah. Mary Taylor Moore.

28:01

Support your writers, support your

28:05

set designers, support your VFX artists.

28:09

If you notice shonky VFX in

28:11

any recent movies, probably because

28:13

the VFX artists are being paid peanuts. Anyway,

28:16

that's my rant over. It came right in the middle of Ben's email.

28:19

I'm so sorry,

28:20

Ben, but thank you

28:21

for the love. All right,

28:23

let's do another one next week. Sash, you up for that?

28:25

Yeah, I'm up for that. I love hearing

28:27

from our listeners. Wicked. Well,

28:29

thanks to the production team as ever.

28:32

Production management is Lily Hambly. The assistant producer

28:35

is Marnie Woodmead. Social media

28:37

is Jonathan Imieri. The studio engineer

28:39

is Teddy Riley.

28:41

And the mix engineer is Gulliver Tickle.

28:43

The senior producer is Selena Ream and the executive

28:45

producer is Simon Poole. Do

28:48

follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

28:50

Stitcher, Amazon, wherever you get your podcasts to

28:52

get new eps. Tell everyone you can.

28:55

We can make more. If you want to listen to

28:57

Shrink the Box and get Kermode and Mayo's Take

29:00

ad free and all their bonus stuff,

29:02

you know what to do by now. Subscribe to Extra

29:04

Takes. Start your free trial now by

29:07

clicking Try Free at the top of the Shrink the Box show page on Apple

29:09

Podcasts or just go to extra takes.com

29:12

on your browser. So if we're going to do it again next

29:15

week, Sash, what should

29:17

we build this nonsense around?

29:19

Well, I think we have more to say about

29:22

ghosts. We didn't get a chance. Oh, you know, the

29:24

ghosts didn't get a fair swing of the... No,

29:27

and they're so interesting. And I think they really represent,

29:29

yeah, they represent a lot of different things

29:31

that we could maybe pick up on.

29:33

So we weren't allowed to waffle the way, live

29:36

show. No, no. We had to get in and

29:38

get out. We did. Like you're done, move

29:40

on. There's another show coming in. Probably Louis Ferrouz

29:42

coming in now. Fuck off. OK,

29:45

we can give the ghosts their due. And that's going

29:47

to be good as well, because it's probably the only

29:49

show. No, definitely the only show that

29:51

we've done

29:53

where the writers are, the actors are, the characters

29:55

are the writers, the actors. Yes.

29:58

Well, Jerry Seinfeld is also... Oh yeah,

30:00

Jerry, yeah, yeah. The second time

30:02

I've forgotten what Seinfeld being in her

30:04

originator. Yeah, Jerry

30:06

writing for Jerry, yeah, that's true. Yeah, but yeah,

30:09

no, it's great that the writers are also

30:11

the actors and ghosts. You feel it's

30:13

a real kind of label of love.

30:15

And it gives it an extra layer of richness, I

30:17

think. Different from your average

30:19

sitcom. All right, can't wait for that. And obviously

30:21

more of your emails. Keep gushing is

30:24

fine if you've got some issues. Send

30:26

them in as well. You got issues

30:28

with anything that we... Because sometimes I think,

30:31

especially with the amount of professionals that we

30:33

got listening, maybe sometimes they think, oh,

30:35

but actually there's this other layer to

30:37

that. You haven't even mentioned. Absolutely,

30:39

yeah. So don't be shy. Sash is not

30:41

precious. No. I learn

30:43

shit every week. So I'm not gonna be like, no, no,

30:45

that's nonsense. You're thinking of attachment theory.

30:48

No, I'm not. I'm gonna be like, fuck, wow, my brain's

30:50

been blown. So please do write in and

30:53

we will see you for another shrink the inbox next

30:55

week. Until then, tada.