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0:36

We now have first person intel from

0:39

inside the Westview anomaly.

0:43

What are we looking at here? Is it an all Internet

0:45

reality, time travel. It's a

0:47

sitcom. Starting two avengers.

0:51

It's a work in theory. Uh-oh.

0:55

It's Ben Bailey Smith

0:56

and Sasha Bates. And you are now

0:59

locked into the alternate universe.

1:01

That has shrink the box where we put our

1:03

favorite TV characters into therapy. We

1:06

try to get to the heart while they behave in such

1:08

surprising and frankly extreme

1:11

ways me. I'm an actor. And a

1:13

and a client have

1:15

have therapy regularly had it this morning,

1:17

in fact. Sasha over here is

1:19

the psychotherapist and the

1:22

experts. Together, we'll

1:24

explore what makes these characters tick.

1:26

And hopefully get a little intel for

1:28

ourselves as

1:29

well. Natasha, the clip we heard at

1:31

the top, please explain.

1:35

That was one division and it's a

1:37

show which, like a lot of the

1:39

characters we look at, isn't quite what

1:41

it seems on the surface. It presents

1:43

as a dated sitcom about a young

1:45

couple in love, wonder, and vision.

1:48

But it turns out that behind that facade,

1:50

they are in fact both superheroes or

1:52

Avengers, and the comedy is actually a

1:54

front for a tragedy Wandavision

1:57

is actually dead, and the whole sitcom

1:59

theme is Wonder's way of keeping him

2:02

and his memory alive. So we've

2:04

got many layers of full

2:06

appearances to to uncover

2:08

as we watch Wanda showing how complex

2:11

grief is. But I just I just feel perfectly primed

2:13

for this sash. You know, I had therapy this morning.

2:16

After I record this, I'm gonna get on a plane

2:18

to Jamaica, which sounds

2:20

like incredibly glamorous

2:23

and and fancy. But actually, I am

2:25

Jamaican and I'm heading over there

2:27

as the result of a family bereavement,

2:30

you know. So it feels

2:32

so apt to be

2:35

talking about a show

2:37

that really gets to grips

2:39

with the pain of the past --

2:41

Mhmm. -- bereavement and grief

2:44

and how we do or

2:46

do not deal with these things.

2:48

Yeah. I mean, I think it is such a fantastic

2:51

depiction of of grief

2:53

and hiding from it and

2:55

confronting it. And I mean, it's also a very

2:57

topical subject for me because I lost

2:59

my husband five years go very

3:01

suddenly and out out of the blue. And

3:04

I ended up writing two books about grief.

3:06

That was my way of kind of making sense

3:08

of of what happened. So I really

3:10

feel for Wanda. I really recognize

3:12

so much of what she's going through and her methods

3:14

of of dealing with it. The old

3:17

sort of five stages model of grief,

3:19

which is the only kind of theory that

3:21

most people know about grief. It's so

3:23

much more complex than than that.

3:25

And I think one's vision shows

3:28

us brilliantly how fragmented life

3:30

can can be. And she does it as

3:32

well by she makes a concrete representation

3:34

of the thing that we all want to do, which is to create

3:36

an alternative reality where your your loved

3:39

one is still

3:39

alive, and she actually she's

3:41

got the power to do that. So

3:44

for all of you out there who

3:46

sort of fear raised and

3:48

wondered what the heck was going on when you were

3:50

watching one division. We will

3:53

go as deep as we can. Into

3:55

wonder psyche and and and into

3:57

the extra meaning behind those technicolor toy

4:00

planes, the mysterious bee keepers,

4:02

So as we descend into the basement of

4:05

truth and fear, I suppose we should

4:07

warn you that we'll be swearing and they'll be

4:09

full on spoilotastic chat

4:11

as ever. But you know the rules,

4:13

strap yourself in, and welcome to

4:16

shrink the box. Alright.

4:22

So it's been a minute, of course, since

4:24

we talked into that incredible series.

4:26

There is a quick reminder of

4:29

where we're at. Elizabeth Olson's

4:31

Wonder invents a sitcom where

4:34

her Wandavision, who's played by Paul Bettony,

4:37

who was killed not once, but twice. In

4:39

Avengers Infinity War, if you remember that,

4:41

is now alive. And she does

4:43

this so they can both live happily inside

4:45

this town called Westview. In

4:47

New Jersey, which one that's surrounded

4:49

by this magnetic field

4:52

in which no one can leave or enter as

4:54

known as the hex. And each episode

4:56

is set in different decade. We start in the fifties.

4:59

Pastis is the TV of the time

5:01

really successfully. This is also

5:03

Wonder's tool to move us through her journey

5:05

of grief and her growing realization

5:08

that she can't keep vision alive which

5:10

is, you know, kind of the tragedy of the

5:12

thing. But then there's a b story as

5:14

well, which is the outside world

5:17

trying to break into Westview to

5:19

free the townspeople that wonders sort

5:21

of trapped. Within her fantasy,

5:23

almost like her slaves, Wanda

5:26

finally has to face reality during this big

5:28

confrontation with her neighbor, Agatha, in

5:32

her basement, which is

5:34

quite the metaphor, which is something

5:36

we'll we'll dig into in a bit. So that's just

5:39

the bare bones. And in true Marvel

5:41

style, it is of course multilayered, but

5:43

there's also humor. There's,

5:45

you know, there's tenderness and and nuance.

5:48

So with that in mind, It's

5:50

two PM once more. We

5:52

have a very interestingly

5:55

dressed individual. Waiting

5:58

in the communal space

6:00

of Sasha's office. Sasha,

6:03

who is going to open your

6:05

door and step in today?

6:08

Today, it is a woman

6:11

called Maximoff, and

6:13

she is from a fictional country called

6:15

Sukovia. And she's already

6:18

no stranger to grief. Both of her parents

6:20

died in an explosion when she was young

6:22

and she lost her twin brother Pietro after

6:25

they both joined the Avengers. So

6:27

she's got superpowers, which is kind

6:30

of unusual in one of my clients. These

6:32

are heightened at times

6:34

of stress. And she

6:36

also is able to harness what they call

6:39

chaos magic, and we'll see

6:41

that she uses all of this to her full advantage

6:43

in her attempt to deny

6:46

vision's death and try to keep him alive.

6:48

Alright. So for a bit more context,

6:51

let's let's have a little listen.

6:52

No. I'm not going to tell you. Is

6:55

that? It

6:56

looks like her.

6:57

You move at the speed of sound and I can make a pencil

6:59

through the air. Who needs to do abbreviate?

7:02

Look, I know it's been a crazy few years

7:04

on this planet, but he's dead.

7:07

Right? Not

7:08

blipped. Dead. Excellent

7:10

plan. Where's the tenderized? What

7:12

am I looking at? You.

7:14

What is this? Where is this coming from?

7:17

Out there. You didn't answer the back for

7:19

your upside down, Kate. Oh,

7:22

hi.

7:23

Is it authentic? I'm

7:24

not sure how to answer that. Is it

7:26

happening in real time? Is it recorded, fabricated,

7:28

I don't know. I don't know. And

7:31

I don't know.

7:31

What do you know?

7:33

My equipment registered an extremely high

7:35

level of CMBR. Throwing

7:37

radiation dating back to the big bang. Yeah.

7:39

Intwined was a broadcast frequency,

7:42

so I had your goons pick me up a sweet vintage

7:44

TV, and when I plug this bad boy in,

7:46

voila, sound in picture.

7:48

Dinner is served.

7:52

And that was the sound of Kat

7:54

Denings and Josh Stamburg playing

7:57

doctor Darcy Lewis and the acting

7:59

director has soared, Tyler Haywood, respectively.

8:02

In episode four, we interrupt

8:04

this program, and that was directed by

8:07

Matt Shaackman and written by Bobak

8:09

Giner and Meghan McDonald will give you the

8:11

full credits for all the clips as ever used

8:14

at the end of this podcast. So

8:16

Sash you mentioned that Wandavision

8:19

is all about grief. What would be the

8:21

first thing you noticed about

8:23

Wonder if she were your

8:24

client? At the beginning of the series, visions

8:26

death is still very recent, and

8:28

Wanda is deep in denial.

8:31

She can't take on board the fact that

8:33

he's actually died and she's

8:35

living in a sort of alternate reality,

8:37

which because of her powers she's able to create,

8:40

but we all live in an alternate reality

8:42

of not being able to

8:44

to process this huge news that

8:46

somebody who who's so central

8:48

and instrumental in your life is suddenly

8:50

not there anymore. It just it can't

8:52

compute. And so there's a

8:55

bit of our brain that knows what's going on. There's a bit of

8:57

our brain that is completely denying

8:59

that. And it can be really strong,

9:02

that denial, that refusal to

9:04

accept. And also, it's very

9:06

confusing time because even though you know

9:08

they are dead, the part of you thinks

9:11

they they aren't. And I think we

9:13

see that she has

9:15

had the rug pulled out from under her life

9:17

because Even though she's created

9:20

a fantasy in nineteen fifty sitcom to

9:22

try and make life very safe, at

9:24

the same time, plates go

9:26

flying around the air, she we've

9:28

got this appointment on her calendar that she

9:30

doesn't understand. She's trying to work

9:32

out how they came to be there, what they're

9:35

doing there, what this heart on the

9:37

calendar. Signifies, so

9:39

she's very confused, but

9:41

she's also trying to pin it down in

9:43

a very safe world of

9:45

nineteen

9:45

fifties, sitcom land. So what

9:47

is it about the stages that bugs you? Is it

9:49

the the sort of neat and tidy order

9:52

that that they they get put in?

9:54

Yeah. It seems to be sort of universally.

9:56

Yeah. That's definitely part of it. I think

9:59

grief isn't linear. All the stages

10:01

as they called are there. So definitely

10:04

denial, anger, bargaining,

10:06

depression, and acceptance. They're all

10:08

in there. I'm not saying they're not, but I just think there's

10:10

a far more than five. And

10:12

yet stages suggests that

10:15

they proceed in an orderly fashion.

10:17

Denial often is the first thing because

10:19

you're in shock. So yeah.

10:22

So that that that one, I don't really have too much of

10:24

an issue if it's it's absolutely true

10:26

and it happens it happens very immediately

10:28

on.

10:28

So for me from personal

10:30

experience mean two things. So you can

10:33

have that very immediate denial

10:35

that operates for no longer than minutes where

10:37

you're just like, no, I was just

10:39

talking to him. Yeah. This can't be

10:41

possible. Mhmm. But it can also pop

10:44

back way

10:45

later, you're sort of trying to

10:47

live your life as if they were still here.

10:49

What we tend to mainly call

10:51

denial is is shock and shock of

10:53

any kinds kind of shuts down the thinking

10:56

brain. Your brainer will only give

10:58

you so much reality as you can cope with. And

11:00

if it's going to feel too terrifying, then

11:02

too painful, then it's almost like it

11:04

wraps you in in bubble wrap to protect

11:06

you from too much knowledge. But, you

11:09

know, bits of the bubble wrap get popped

11:11

as you as you go go along. And

11:13

her bubble wrap is a very extravagant

11:16

version. She she she's got an

11:19

entire town. We have in in

11:21

bubble yet. But yeah, denial can come in at

11:23

any time for me, like, for

11:25

about a year or so waking

11:27

up first thing, you know, you have few

11:29

moments of assuming life is as it was,

11:31

and then you have to re remember as

11:33

your brain comes back

11:34

online. Oh, shit. No. It's it's

11:37

he's not here.

11:38

Feeling of the person being next to you,

11:40

but

11:41

Yeah. And it takes it takes a moment to

11:43

compute that, oh, no, actually.

11:45

Let's delve deeper into this kind

11:47

of idea of creative worlds.

11:49

It's it's a little clip from from

11:52

the show.

11:53

Wonder. Is there something

11:56

special about today? Well,

11:58

I know the apron is a bit much dear,

12:00

but I am doing my best to blend in.

12:02

No. No. Now on the calendar, someone's drawing

12:04

a little hard right above

12:06

today's day. Oh,

12:09

yes. The heart. Well,

12:12

don't tell me you have forgotten this. Forgotten

12:14

a wonder I'm incapable of forgetting this. I remember

12:16

everything. That's not an exaggeration. In fact,

12:19

I'm incapable of exaggeration. Well,

12:21

then tell me what's so important about today's date.

12:26

What was the question again? Oh, that's

12:28

how she forgot me yourself. Yeah. You haven't No.

12:30

I've been so looking forward to

12:32

it. As a high. Today,

12:34

we are celebrating. You

12:36

bet we are. It the

12:38

first time we have

12:41

ever celebrated this occasion

12:43

before. It's a special day.

12:45

Perhaps an evening. Great significant. To

12:48

a spot. Naturally. Obviously.

12:49

Exactly. Hold

12:51

on us. Mhmm. Hold on us. So

12:53

you can hear from that. The vibe is very much

12:56

like I love Lucy. Sees of Dick

12:58

Van Dyke show, that kind of

13:00

fifties vibe. Why

13:02

it has wonder

13:04

creates it come out out of all the

13:06

the the world she could exist in. You

13:08

know, anything that goes wrong can easily

13:10

be patched up and put back together. And

13:12

they generally depict

13:15

happy families and neighbors

13:17

dropping in on you, and it's a very

13:20

safe and controlled world when your

13:22

own world feels very unsafe and

13:24

very uncontrolled. And there's

13:26

a sort of nostalgia of,

13:28

oh, things could be perfect if

13:31

only. And think the fifty

13:33

sitcoms, in particular, portrayed

13:36

a world where everybody knew their place

13:38

and everybody was you

13:40

know, well presented and nothing went wrong

13:42

and And the

13:42

woman was looked after. And the woman was looked

13:44

after, yeah, very good point. As we see,

13:47

she soon realizes that She's not really

13:49

in control because reality starts

13:51

to intrude, which is what happens as you

13:53

as you move through and much as I try and

13:55

avoid using the words words like stages.

13:58

I tend to use more words like sort of flavors

14:00

or shapes or or or or waves.

14:04

And, you know, she'll get waivers of reality

14:06

puncturing through. And in

14:08

the second episode, which is

14:11

a nineteen sixties episode. We

14:13

start to see some of those things coming

14:15

coming in. There's little aeroplane that

14:17

flies in that has come from outside

14:20

and They do a magic show as well,

14:22

which also creates the sense of,

14:24

you know, all things are going wrong and can't we

14:26

keep the illusion in

14:27

place. You get the sense all hell

14:29

is gonna break loose either outside

14:33

or inside. So knowing

14:37

that she's carrying all this tension, which

14:40

she probably would have been able to see in

14:42

her preamble on on the couch wool.

14:44

Do think is the next thing you'd you'd notice

14:46

about

14:47

wonder? Well, one thing that often doesn't get

14:49

mentioned enough, I think, in grief, is

14:51

the fear, the terror of how

14:53

how do I survive this? And I

14:55

think we do get that sense of threat

14:57

in the second episode as sort of things

14:59

go bang in the night and there's a feeling

15:02

of of something or somebody lurking

15:04

outside. What

15:08

was that?

15:18

Hold up. Yes, dear. Are

15:21

you using your powers to turn on my light?

15:23

Yes, sir. Allow me

15:25

sweetheart. What

15:32

do you see? Only

15:34

your lovely rose bushes. That's

15:37

all? Are you using your night

15:39

vision

15:39

vision? I'm sure you, well, I don't see nothing

15:41

of this. You have absolutely no reason

15:44

to be Oh, no.

15:47

know, the the the canned laughter

15:50

makes it even more creepy.

15:52

You get that sort of step, food waxy

15:55

type feel to things. There's

15:58

a scene that I like where she's

16:00

with some of the other women in in

16:02

the street in there planning this magic show

16:04

that they're gonna put on and voices

16:06

start to come in through the radio.

16:09

And there's this sense of sort of other worldliness.

16:12

And then one of the wives is

16:14

holding a glass and it shatters. And

16:16

I really like that as a metaphor for how

16:18

fragile her grip on sanity is

16:20

because part of the fear comes from feeling

16:22

like you're going mad because nothing makes

16:24

sense. Her fear and her sense

16:26

of being besieged, that comes

16:28

across really strongly. Yeah. That's really good. I

16:30

never thought that about the glass, you

16:33

know, just that that is is

16:35

the the emotional kind

16:37

of variation on

16:40

realizing you're out of your depth in

16:42

the sea like your feet can't touch the ground or when

16:44

you're when you're lost as a kid and you you

16:46

think that the the legs next

16:48

to you or the legs of your your mom or dad

16:50

and you look up and it's not

16:51

them, it's like

16:52

-- Yeah. -- terrifying. It is like sci

16:54

fi. We talked about trying to

16:56

keep things as

16:58

they were, as you remember them in the external

17:01

world. But but what

17:03

about those interior conversations

17:07

that people have following

17:09

death, you know, where we berate

17:11

ourselves. III had it about

17:13

AAA friend that I lost a couple of years

17:16

ago simply because I

17:20

had planned to go and meet

17:22

him and didn't. And you

17:24

get that narcissistic thing of, well, if I

17:26

was there. I mean, I could have

17:28

said, don't do this, don't do that,

17:30

you know, which is is obviously nonsense.

17:32

But when there's no repost

17:35

to it, the person's not there to say.

17:37

Mhmm. I don't worry about it. You

17:39

you wouldn't have made a difference.

17:41

Yeah. You pile it on

17:43

yourself. What is that about? Well,

17:45

I think it's a couple things I think, but

17:47

by taking some of the blame

17:49

onto yourself, it's almost like

17:52

taking control because you feel so out of control.

17:54

There's nothing you could have done. But by

17:56

sort of telling yourself that if I've done this

17:58

or if I've done that, it is a way of feeling

18:00

like all I could have controlled it. So it

18:02

puts you back in the driving seat a little

18:04

bit. There is a sense of bargaining.

18:06

Like I say, that's one of the five stages mentioned.

18:09

This notion of if I did it

18:11

differently, it's former magical

18:13

thinking, a way of

18:14

thinking if I replaying and replaying,

18:17

always with a different ending of oh, they

18:19

survived. So

18:20

for a long time, I've I've had the belief

18:23

that

18:23

death presents itself

18:26

as this extra extraordinary

18:29

thing. That's how we take onboard

18:32

because it's such a surprise. It's such a shock, and we don't

18:34

know how to deal with it because it doesn't happen to us. Every

18:36

day. Mhmm. So when it does happen, everything

18:38

around it, we tend to

18:41

make extraordinary whereas,

18:44

actually, it was probably just quite ordinary.

18:46

Mhmm. I I still know people who think

18:48

Bob Miley, they swear Bob Miley was

18:50

murdered by the CIA like poisoned. They

18:52

can't accept the an amazing person

18:55

like that could die of something really

18:57

boring like cancer. And I thought about

18:59

it in in like normal

19:01

terms. I say normal, like just non

19:03

famous people terms. So friends,

19:06

partners, relatives, that

19:08

we've lost. We still do

19:10

a similar thing because the death to

19:12

us on a personal level is is kind of

19:14

extraordinary. We look back

19:17

at things that led up to it

19:19

and start going

19:20

well, you know, if I'd have done this, if

19:22

I'd have done that, And we just got no idea

19:24

about, like, the randomness --

19:26

Mhmm. --

19:27

of life. Yeah. And understand. Absolutely.

19:30

And and I think it's about trying

19:32

to make sense of something that's nonsensical.

19:35

I mean, how how can it be that somebody was there

19:37

one day, and then they're literally just not there. It's like,

19:39

well, as Zulu saying, you know, where where have

19:41

they gone? How how can that possibly? How can

19:43

we live in a world where people can just disappear?

19:46

Yeah. We're trying to create a narrative where

19:48

it does make sense. And I think conspiracy theories

19:51

are sort of heightened version

19:53

of that of, oh, it had to be.

19:55

There had to be reason behind it.

19:57

Because if there's no reason, then it could happen

19:59

to any of us. And that isn't really terrifying

20:02

prospects. It's just a

20:04

way of alleviating fears a

20:06

way of making the

20:07

confusion, less confusing, and

20:10

trying to bring it back into something that's manageable.

20:13

One day, it will all make sense. Alright.

20:15

Well, we still need to chat about scary

20:17

beekeepers. What one

20:19

means by having a case of the Mondays.

20:22

And how destruction can actually help us.

20:24

So, hey, don't go anywhere, don't touch that

20:26

dial. We'll be right back after this commercial

20:28

break unless you're a subscriber, in which case,

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22:24

And we are back.

22:26

So Sash, there's a guy

22:29

wearing what looks like a beekeepers outfit

22:31

who crawls out of a manhole

22:33

cover. It's bit sinister. What's

22:35

it all

22:36

about? On one level, this is an emissary

22:38

sent by the outside world trying

22:40

to just break into the hex, to try and

22:42

break into one's world. But

22:45

on another level, think it is

22:47

sinister. It's this sense of

22:49

other people trying to pull

22:51

her out of the cocoon of nostalgia

22:54

and and fantasy that she's

22:56

in.

22:56

And she has to really resist that because

22:58

she doesn't want to face reality.

23:00

She wants to say nestled

23:03

in the safe

23:04

world. Right. Yeah. Because beekeepers kind of

23:06

break into your house, right, if you're a bee.

23:08

I mean, and they sort of, you

23:09

know, rearrange your home in

23:12

in some way. Yeah. The I mean, the only rearranging

23:14

that Lonza wants to happen is the rearranging

23:16

that that she does. And actually,

23:19

I think that that actually ties in quite well

23:21

with this notion that she's

23:23

she's nesting. I mean, we always think of nesting

23:26

as something that, you know, new moms do

23:28

to make the world safe for

23:30

their new baby. But I think

23:32

grieving people nest and create

23:34

a home for themselves because they're trying to

23:36

make the world safe for their sort of grieving

23:38

inner childs, the bit of them that feels completely

23:41

infant like again without the person

23:44

that is normally protecting them,

23:46

whether that's a parent or a partner,

23:48

or the person that makes them makes them the

23:50

world feel an okay place, and

23:52

it's a real intrusion. And

23:54

other people can feel really intrusive

23:56

as well even the ones that are trying to help. I mean,

23:58

I get asked so often how do you help

24:01

a grieving person. It's the one thing that everybody

24:03

wants to know because It speaks to

24:05

the powerlessness that we all

24:07

have. You see somebody in pain and you want

24:09

to help them. We'll talk about this later

24:12

with one's journey. But

24:15

that feeling that nobody else

24:17

can do anything to help really

24:19

answer sense of isolation and

24:22

loneliness and the said that you're

24:24

you're on your own in in

24:25

this, and you are on your own in this. Nobody can

24:27

really help. They can be supportive, but they can't

24:29

take the pain away. Yes. That is very

24:32

true. Although, I

24:34

would say that as soon as

24:36

you open up on what

24:38

your pain

24:39

is, help is out there,

24:41

but you you do have to reach out

24:44

first. Everybody's grief is unique.

24:46

And you're absolutely right in the talking

24:48

to other people and sharing the pain and

24:50

knowing that you're not alone and that there are commonalities,

24:54

but it's also really important to know

24:56

that the worst pain ever is your own

24:58

pain, and nobody has experienced the pain

25:00

just like you have. And that

25:02

has to that has to be honored. Somebody

25:05

might want to say, no. No. No. I'm fine.

25:07

I'm fine. Don't don't worry

25:09

about me, and they might find support

25:12

and help us quite intrusive because

25:14

they need to take themselves off into a dark corner

25:16

and and rock slowly too in

25:18

front. Other people might

25:20

be unable to bear the thought that they've got to be

25:22

left alone, and they might need the house filled with

25:24

people so that they don't feel alone.

25:27

So it's really important to balance

25:29

out the this is common. You're

25:31

not going mad. Other people have been to it

25:33

and other people have survived it

25:35

with the acknowledgement that yeah, but for

25:37

you, this is the worst pain you've ever felt and

25:39

nobody else does know what you're going through because

25:41

nobody else has lost that same person

25:44

as you and nobody

25:46

else has had the unique set of experiences

25:49

and traumas that you have.

25:51

And we see this with wonders as as

25:53

well because you know, she's lost

25:55

vision, but this comes on top

25:57

of a lifetime of having lost

26:00

her twin brother -- Yeah. -- of having lost

26:02

her parents. Just depends really early

26:04

age. Even if she coped well, I mean,

26:06

of course, she does cope what she becomes an avenger. I mean,

26:08

you you can't really cope better than that.

26:10

But there's definitely something

26:13

accumulated grief. Yes. And

26:15

and and with that, there is always

26:18

the risk of shutdown.

26:20

And and maybe we're seeing

26:22

that occur as her

26:25

sitcom progresses towards

26:27

the nineties. I mean, I

26:29

was a young teen in the nineties, and I spent

26:32

a lot of time just like Wanda Hidden Under

26:34

duvet. So I know where she's coming

26:36

from before. When we see that, what are we

26:38

to take from that? I mean, has has she

26:40

completely down

26:41

tools? Is this the beginnings of depression?

26:43

Let's let's hear a clip.

26:45

Look, we've all been there. Right? Right,

26:48

letting our fear and anger get the best of us

26:50

intentionally expanding the borders of

26:52

the false world we created

27:01

As punishment for my reckless evening,

27:03

I plan on taking a quarantine style medication,

27:07

a whole day, just

27:10

myself.

27:12

That'll show

27:13

me. That's probably

27:15

just a case seven the Mondays. What'd

27:17

you reconcile?

27:19

Yeah. Well, I mean, grief does evolve

27:21

and the acute shock and denial

27:24

of the initial readjustment

27:27

does give way to a more

27:29

day to day modernity of,

27:32

oh, where I the everyday is. Is

27:35

this is? Yes. Is this a game? Yeah.

27:37

And I think what I found was

27:39

I mean, again, I don't like to put time scales on it.

27:41

But for about the first year, you

27:43

know, I was speeding and I was on a on

27:45

a go quick kind

27:47

of, like, I did everything to to

27:50

never not be busy based Yeah.

27:53

Exactly. I was trying to out outrun

27:55

it and I think the adrenaline

27:57

kind of dissipates and then you have

27:59

the kind of like the the post sugar

28:01

crash almost of, oh, right.

28:04

So this is really what it is. And that that acute

28:07

pain becomes more of a chronic pain, and that

28:09

can feel really depressing

28:11

and really deadening. And

28:13

you do lose a sense of what

28:15

is the point. And she depicts

28:18

that depression element really

28:20

well, I

28:21

think. And again, gonna stress again, it's not

28:23

like it's only gonna come once. It can kind

28:25

of come

28:26

for a few hours. It

28:27

can come for a few weeks and come for months, it can

28:29

come after two days. It

28:30

can come after two years. Tensity. With

28:33

different levels of intensity. One

28:37

of the other sort of newer

28:39

grief theories that I prefer is called

28:41

dual process because it acknowledges how

28:44

dynamic grief is and how your industry is

28:46

swinging to and fro. So you're swinging

28:48

from reality to denial and back

28:50

again. And we see that with her with the and

28:53

her ability to take take things on

28:55

onboard. But you're also swinging to

28:57

and fro between the pain

28:59

of the loss of everything that

29:01

you're no longer gonna have. And the pain of

29:03

the future of own shit. don't know how

29:06

to do this on my own, but you're also

29:08

swinging through the the comfort

29:10

of the past and the memories and the joy of

29:12

what what you had and there

29:14

can be good things in in the future.

29:17

So you're going to and flip to in the past the future,

29:19

between the pain, between the hope, between

29:21

the denial, between the reality. So it's a

29:23

constantly swinging pendulum, and that's why

29:26

think JUUL process shows that

29:28

you're endlessly

29:28

swinging. A little closer. Yeah. Yeah.

29:31

And I totally see that. But also

29:34

elements of anger, right, perhaps that the the

29:36

fact that you're not feeling

29:37

better, but In some cases,

29:39

even at the person who died, is that

29:41

is that a thing? Definitely. I mean,

29:43

the anger is all pervasive. It

29:46

can be the person that you've lost. It can be

29:48

angry at them for dying. I mean, it's not rational, but

29:50

there's nothing about grief that is rational.

29:52

But even when it's not their

29:54

fault, you can still feel angry

29:56

that they've left you. And I used

29:59

to get really annoyed when people would say things

30:01

like, oh, he's in a better place. And

30:04

I want him fucking better place. I want him here

30:06

dealing with this shit with

30:07

me. How dare you be in the back place when I'm

30:09

in the worst place? Friends and loved ones right

30:11

here. Yeah.

30:13

What is this place? Yeah. Why

30:15

does he get an escape route out of this misery?

30:17

So yes, at times, I could

30:20

get very angry with him, and she does get

30:22

want to does get angry with vision when

30:24

he starts the question. Hang on

30:26

what's going on here. Actually,

30:28

he's trying to help her evolve

30:31

and and move through into a

30:33

a more realistic world. And

30:35

she gets really angry with him, and he's trying

30:37

to get back to the house at one point,

30:40

I

30:40

think, and she makes all the traffic lights change

30:42

to bed

30:43

so that she can't.

30:44

Yeah. So so she gets very cross him

30:48

trying to say, you know what? Let me go.

30:50

Yeah. And I suppose there's the additional

30:52

element with anger of being so angry

30:54

at the UN first, which is is, like, it's nonsensical

30:57

as well. But we get that thing of,

30:59

like, why him? Like, he was

31:01

so he did everything right. He went

31:03

to Ethiopia at that time and worked

31:05

with starving kids and he's

31:07

dead.

31:08

Oh, there's just huge rage in the

31:10

interest. Still, like, just walking around. Yeah.

31:12

You know, that that kind of thing. You just get like

31:14

super furious.

31:16

Yeah. Yeah. And the the wage is enormous.

31:18

And I think the other problem with grief is

31:20

that people think that grief is all about

31:22

being

31:22

sad. And actually, they

31:25

know how to deal with that sort of grief. What they don't

31:27

know how to deal with is when you're spitting

31:29

and fuming and raging and being a kind

31:31

of

31:31

real be harder, and you don't want to see in biscuits.

31:34

Yeah. I'm wondering, ultimately,

31:36

sort of multimillion dollar question. Is

31:39

there any way to just completely avoid

31:42

the grief process? Can you just sidestep

31:44

it?

31:45

You can't. You can shut

31:47

it away and just refuse to go near it and potentially

31:49

doesn't happen a lot. But that doesn't

31:51

mean it's gone away. It just means

31:53

it's kind of out of consciousness

31:56

for a while and it is only for a while

31:58

because you can't keep it there. It's gonna

32:00

leak out in other ways in like

32:03

anger at things that you don't even recognize this

32:05

is why I'm angry or at sadness or in

32:07

depression, all different ways that

32:09

you will label as something else

32:11

when actually it is it is

32:13

the grief. And giving back to

32:16

Wanda, she does have to confront

32:18

it eventually. I mean, she does everything in her power

32:20

and her powers are considerable. To

32:23

not accept it, to not face it.

32:25

But you talked about the the basement of

32:28

truth earlier when Agatha

32:30

metaphorically and literally takes her

32:32

down into her basement. That depicts

32:34

how having to finally go

32:36

into those deep dark places of,

32:38

oh, God, he is gone, and I'm

32:41

gonna have to carry on on on my

32:43

own. And, yeah, think the basement

32:45

is a good metaphor really for how

32:47

how deep and dark and and painful

32:49

it is and why we don't wanna get there. We wanna keep

32:51

it locked away. The only way over

32:54

it is through it, you you kind of have to

32:56

allow the sadness and the anger and and

32:59

the fear and and the

33:00

confusion. But that doesn't

33:02

mean that you can't do it with support

33:04

with how gradually Oh my

33:06

god. So you just blew my mind, but I suddenly

33:08

thought, shit. That's what going

33:10

on a bear hunt about. There's a children's

33:13

book called We're going on a bear hunt. I'm

33:15

sure everyone's heard of it by Michael

33:16

Rosen, who's an incredible day.

33:19

One of the greatest children's writers of all time.

33:21

And he's lost his sons, so he knows a bit about

33:23

that. Yeah. And he had a book specifically about

33:25

that four kids about how to deal with grief

33:27

the sad book, which is couldn't recommend that

33:29

enough as a little partner to

33:31

this episode. But in we're

33:33

going on a bear hunt, they're going to find this

33:36

terrifying bear in a cave. All

33:38

along the journey, there's different obstacles.

33:41

Right? So there's a swamp, there's

33:44

words And the sort of

33:46

the poetry of it is like, oh, no. There's a

33:49

there's a swamp. Can't go over it.

33:51

Can't go under it. Have to go through

33:53

it. And

33:53

wander does. About that one. Yeah. Well,

33:55

it's a it's a brilliant depiction.

33:57

Maybe that's what it's about. Yeah. Or at least in

33:59

terms of dealing with your darkest fear. Mhmm.

34:02

So

34:02

how does one carry on

34:04

existing in a

34:07

world where this

34:09

other person that's so important to them

34:11

no longer exists. Like, how

34:13

do you accept that?

34:14

Acceptance is another one of those words that

34:16

you kind of have to be a bit careful with. So some

34:18

people find it very negative because it's like,

34:21

oh, except they've gone, move on, put it

34:23

behind you, stop living in a fantasy.

34:25

Or can see it as quite a positive,

34:27

like I accept that he's gone,

34:30

I accept where I am now, and I

34:32

also accept that my life is gonna be different,

34:34

but that it can still be good. I actually

34:36

what I got from that relationship and talking about

34:38

myself here and I think for for Wanda as

34:40

well because she also lost her husband. I

34:43

can accept that I would not be the person I am

34:45

now without him, and so I can build on

34:47

that. And that sort of ties into another

34:50

theory that I really like, grief theory that I like,

34:52

which is called continuing bonds, which is

34:54

saying that just as relationship

34:57

has to evolve, I mean, that's just nature

34:59

we evolve or or we die we have to

35:01

adapt. You know, my relationship with Bill

35:03

wasn't the same one year after knowing

35:05

him as it was ten years after knowing him. So

35:08

your relationship when somebody's alive

35:10

continually evolves. But what we tend

35:12

to do is we try and think that when somebody dies,

35:14

we preserve them in aspect. And that's what Wanda tries

35:16

to do. She tries to preserve vision in Aspect,

35:18

in her sitcom. If you think of it

35:21

as a continually evolving relationship,

35:24

Bill doesn't know the me that I am now,

35:26

but I do feel that he's been with me on that

35:28

journey. Right. And I feel like I've

35:31

updated kids, my version of

35:33

what our relationship would be

35:35

in the, you know, he died at fifty

35:37

six. He would not be sixty one. He wouldn't

35:39

be the same person, and I'm not the same person.

35:42

But partly why I'm not the same person is

35:44

because I've both loved him and

35:47

lost him. And so that has all fed

35:49

into the me that I am now.

35:51

So I can't remain fixed at the age of forty

35:53

nine when he died. So

35:55

you can evolve and you can accept

35:57

that he's gone and I'm gonna

35:59

move on. But he's still with me. I think

36:01

about him every day. I every

36:04

decision I make, I think, well, what would Bill say?

36:06

What would Bill do? I still talk to him.

36:08

That doesn't mean that I think I'm stuck

36:10

in the past. I I have a really

36:12

good life. I have, you know, I can be happy a lot

36:14

of the time, but I'm also sad quite

36:16

a lot of the time. And both those things can be

36:18

true. So I think there's an acceptance of this

36:20

is the life that I've got. I'm gonna make the best of

36:23

it. think another thing with Wanda

36:25

and the the metaphors that come out of

36:28

is that she starts to accept

36:30

that she's got to carry on

36:32

with the real world, not the fantasy world.

36:35

When she goes back to see the foundations

36:38

of the house that they were going to

36:39

build.

36:39

That's right. And she realizes

36:42

that visions vision of their

36:44

future where we're gonna be have our children and

36:46

and be happy. That can't happen. She has

36:48

to accept that, but she can build a whole new

36:50

life and she can use the strength

36:53

that she got from being vision's wife

36:56

to help her have a new

36:58

life that is in a way more

37:00

empowered it's a bit like that theory of

37:02

martial arts where you take the enemy

37:04

strength and turn it against them

37:06

and you can take the enemy of

37:08

grief and say, no. Actually,

37:11

I am really powerful because I have survived

37:13

my worst nightmare coming true. I have survived

37:15

the loss of the most important person in my

37:18

world. And actually death

37:20

holds no fear anymore. Nothing

37:22

that now will ever happen again, so it can actually

37:25

become a real life super cow. I know

37:27

the kind of wonder type Superpowers. God,

37:29

who knew you could learn so much from a

37:31

super rich and a synthesoid?

37:33

Yeah. No. But

37:33

that's that's string the box for you. Mhmm.

37:36

That's why we love the show. So

37:38

thanks a million to

37:41

all of our amazing listeners for

37:43

sending in character suggestions. You guys

37:45

are awesome. Email us

37:47

at shrink the box at something else dot com. That's

37:49

shrink the box at something without

37:52

the g l dot com.

37:54

We've got an email here from dot to a

37:56

pool of

37:57

Blair. We're getting a lot of

37:58

doctors. Not a doctor. Yeah. I

38:00

think that's incredible, you know,

38:02

like, doctors care. So we're doing

38:04

something right. I'll say you're doing something right.

38:07

Paula says, hello, Ben and Sasha

38:09

and production team. A character suggestion

38:11

for you is Alicia

38:12

Florrick. In the good wife --

38:14

Mhmm. -- should be great. Yeah. Plagued by Maggles.

38:17

Paula says she thinks there's plenty

38:19

to discuss with her, especially as she develops

38:21

throughout the series. She also says

38:23

maybe Stella Gibson in the fall would

38:25

be great too. Is that is that Julian Anderson?

38:27

Yes. Right. Yeah. Not seeing that

38:29

one. Both get close to

38:31

characters played by Archie Panjabi, which

38:34

might be interesting. Yeah. Awesome. Looking

38:36

forward to seeing who else you get into. Another

38:39

email from Selena, Nuh-uh, producer

38:42

in chief Selena, another one, different

38:44

spending, who says, love

38:46

the show. Thank you, Selena. She says,

38:48

yes, please do a comment on a Soprano episode

38:50

because

38:51

we did suggest Yeah. And we like to to come at

38:53

it. I'd still love to do it. If you're looking

38:55

for suggestions, Selena says, how

38:57

about digging into Barry from the eponymous

38:59

show about the assassin turned amateur actor,

39:02

Ace stuff. Yeah. That's Bill

39:04

Hader. Bill Hader, my brother told me about it,

39:06

and it sounds so

39:08

cool, like, right on the line there

39:10

between, like, horrific and and comedic.

39:12

Successful comic. I mean, that's what

39:14

great premise. Yeah.

39:17

Yeah. This is a fine line. Yeah.

39:20

Alright. I'm gonna get on that. Hey, listen.

39:22

We really would love to cover

39:24

every single suggestion that we get.

39:26

And who knows? Maybe we will, somewhere down

39:28

the line. So thank you so much. For

39:30

all your interaction. We need it. That's what the show

39:32

is all about. Do make sure you

39:34

follow us on on Apple Podcasts

39:37

and Spotify and Stitcher Amazon

39:39

Music or any of these amazing

39:41

newfangled places that you can get

39:44

stuff these days. I'm gonna list them all for

39:46

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And if you want to listen to shrink the

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39:56

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40:07

from our very good friends. Over

40:09

at current mode and mayo's take.

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You can start your free trial now by clicking

40:14

try three at the top of the shrink in the box, show

40:16

page, on Apple Pro Plus or

40:18

if you prefer, go to the website, extratakes

40:21

dot com. All this have to do now

40:24

is give a big thank you to our production

40:26

team. Production Management is Lilly

40:28

Hambly, the assistant producer is Bashak

40:30

Eitan. Social media is Jonathan

40:32

Emieri, the studio engineer, it's Teddy

40:34

Riley, and the mix engineer is Jay Bill.

40:36

The senior producer is Celine Roehm, and

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the executive producer is Simon

40:41

Paul

40:41

Sasha. Who do we have next

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week? Well, we come crashing

40:46

back down to Earth with

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a very real and very contemporary

40:50

hero this time. This is the

40:52

most critically acclaimed television

40:54

program of twenty twenty. It was described

40:57

by The New York Times as the perfect show

40:59

for an anxious

41:00

world. And here is the trailer.

41:03

I just match your boat. I

41:07

don't know. Oh, shit,

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man. How how how

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did lost my end? Got

41:15

this thing in my head. Look

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like it's guy

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because now you're you're calling it something

41:21

I'm referring. How

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are you

41:24

doing? I'm great as long as I'm

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around. People.

41:32

I did, you know, I just cover the

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pieces, any of the pieces. That

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is the extraordinarily talented Mikaela

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Cole who created wrote and

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co directed and exec produced, I

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may destroy you.

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Nominated nine times at the Emmys, deservedly

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won two awards for outstanding writing

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as well as a whole raft of other

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awards. It is a master

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class in script writing. As

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well as acting. And we're gonna

42:01

be looking at that show

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and within that

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show, what else, Sasha?

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Well, you can hear in that clip that our

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next client, Arabella, is quite like

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the she sounds confused, chaotic, she's

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unsure of what's real, how to make sense

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to the world. And it's the same overwhelm

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the effects of the trauma. But in her case, it's not

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from a death. It's from a physical

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attack. She's been raped. After having been

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drugged. And it's it's powerful stuff this

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show. I mean, it gets us questioning

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friendship, sex, consent, all

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the big things that so

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many of us have to deal with. But

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it's great because it's packed into a depiction

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of London, which is citing and fast

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paced and fun and loud and really

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contemporary.

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Yeah. Definitely. And also there's a

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a therapist character. So you

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can tell us how authentic you think she

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is. I think maybe we need a league table,

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a fictional therapist. I'm thinking

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MELFI will be at the

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top, but you never know. I might just nip off and get

42:58

your whiteboard now, actually, such.

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Oh, wait. I love being in control of nice

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whiteboard. Lovely. Alright.

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See you next time. Bye. Bye. Okay.

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It's time for me and my fellow nerds

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to relish. The

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superheroes that create

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super television such as Wandavision,

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the opening clip from

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the special look trailer was Josh Stamburg

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as acting director Tyler Haywood

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Park as agent Jimmy Wu and Cat Denings

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as doctor Darcy Lewis. The

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clip wear wonder in his propulsion

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and

43:36

vision, Paul Bettony, are trying