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0:37

I have to tell you something. I

0:40

went out one time and a

0:42

stranger something in my drink?

0:45

In my drink?

0:48

Yeah. Like a drive to to let me sleep here.

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But you gotta

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watch your drink in the clothes. Yes, ma'am. You have

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to deal. Okay? You gotta watch your drink. You will

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get hot.

0:59

A is TV's BBS.

1:02

And I'm Sasha Bates. And welcome

1:04

back to shrink the box, which

1:07

is you know the deal. We

1:09

are shrinking the biggest

1:11

heads in television, putting

1:14

our favorite fictional characters

1:16

on the therapist couch. Me,

1:18

I'm an actor, Sasha here is a psychotherapist

1:21

and the expert, of course. Sasha

1:23

tell us where that clip at the top was

1:25

from. That was Arabella. On

1:27

the phone to her Italian boyfriend, Biedgio,

1:29

and it was Metacritic's highest

1:31

rated TV show of twenty

1:33

twenty, and it was, of course, I know.

1:35

Destroy you.

1:37

The show is unflinching in

1:39

its portrayal of sex and sexual assault,

1:41

so we're not gonna be shying away from any

1:43

of that either.

1:44

Yeah. It's a tough watch. I

1:47

I remember it being tough at the time, but even

1:49

the rewatch I was my skin was

1:51

crawling at times. And and like

1:53

going back to that clip is is it's

1:55

just a tiny example of how

1:57

economic Mikaela Kohl's

2:00

writing is as every single

2:02

word spoken brings a new perspective

2:05

on on on Sony issues. Mikaela

2:07

famously wrote a hundred and ninety one drafts

2:09

of the show. Just to get it

2:11

right. Yeah. That she's she you can tell the

2:13

responsibility that she's feeling. Yeah.

2:15

And it's an incredible attention to detail

2:17

and it comes because it's so real for

2:19

that reason, I think, and it's it's

2:22

exhilarating, but it's also terrifying.

2:24

But it's it's a master class I think in

2:26

in how to entertain, keep your audience

2:29

grip, but also convey really

2:31

viscerally a world. And

2:33

it's not my world. But it really opened

2:35

my eyes for it. It's like for you

2:37

know, a young generation out there and I I could

2:40

see just how many different sorts

2:42

of minefields they have to traverse.

2:44

You know, anyone that's out there today who's looking for

2:47

work, looking for love, looking for sex, friendship,

2:49

and how you navigate that. I mean, how how anyone

2:52

8 it, really. But when you're black and a

2:54

woman and you wanna have

2:55

sex, but you wanna be safe, and you want a career, but

2:57

you don't wanna be 8. I mean, she's juggling

3:00

so many different themes and

3:02

all the

3:02

ways in which we can exploit and hurt each other,

3:05

but also how we can support and and

3:07

be their creature. Absolutely. She she sort

3:09

of gives us little pointers. On on

3:11

what might make a hard, like, hard decisions that

3:13

little bit easier. So, remarkable show

3:15

on that level. And when I was re watching that

3:18

it struck me I thought I could just spend

3:20

time in these people's company because

3:22

they feel like real black people that

3:25

I know. Mhmm. You know, often you

3:27

see black people portrayed on screen and

3:29

they're either their race is completely

3:31

irrelevant. Fine, or

3:33

it's all about their race, but they're

3:35

behaving in the sort of way that

3:37

it's like, okay, here's the black guy.

3:40

Whereas this just shows you all

3:42

different levels of the the black

3:44

experience, which

3:45

is

3:45

it's something I I just find so admirable

3:48

because it's scandalous, but it

3:50

just so really happens.

3:52

So coming up, we are gonna look at the dangers

3:55

of becoming a social media star.

3:57

When is consensual free some, not

3:59

a consensual free some. And

4:02

why McKay La Cole was obsessed

4:04

with under when writing this show.

4:06

So like under jumpers, under

4:09

beds, under the sea. Also,

4:11

we're gonna discover what stealthing

4:14

and Frotterism are. New terminology

4:16

for us. And as a reminder, there's

4:19

a lot disturbing content in there,

4:21

upsetting stuff, and we're gonna be touching

4:23

on it. There's gonna be adult

4:25

language and, of course, plot

4:27

reveals and spoilers. So just

4:29

have a listen and if it feels wrong, stop.

4:32

If you don't wanna find out what's happening, stop.

4:35

Go watch and come back to

4:36

us. Alright?

4:37

In a sense in action. Okay. Love

4:39

you guys. Welcome. To

4:41

shrink the box.

4:47

Alright, Sasha. How are you feeling? Are you ready?

4:48

Yeah. Can I We already have to strap in for

4:51

this

4:51

one? Oh, yeah, man. It's this an intense

4:53

one,

4:53

but

4:54

I think it's worth it. I think I'm good for it. It's definitely

4:56

worth it. That's that's the thing. It is definitely

4:59

worth it. So as ever, let's kick

5:01

off with a little summary. In case

5:03

you've forgotten or haven't seen, I may

5:05

destroy you. I mean, if you haven't,

5:07

I don't know what you've been doing, you need to watch this

5:10

show. Anyway, we open with Arabella,

5:12

okay, who's played by the creator and writer,

5:14

Mikayla Cole, and she's leaving Italy.

5:17

Asking for commitment from

5:19

her boyfriend or lover,

5:21

Byagio, who's also a drug dealer,

5:23

and he's played by Marwan Zotti.

5:26

She's in Italy to write her second

5:29

book. Clearly, her first one's been

5:31

a hit with a sort of young readership,

5:33

so it's quite an citing, signing for the publishers,

5:36

but she's also clearly not

5:38

done any work. Oh, she's

5:40

just asking around. We

5:42

see that ticking clock, the publisher's

5:45

getting on her back, so she comes back to London

5:47

and pulls in all nighter. To finish it.

5:50

But we see she's constantly tempted, distracted

5:53

by her phone and her friends. So

5:55

she decides to give into it. Goes

5:57

to a a local bar with some

5:59

mates. Next day, she's

6:02

sitting in her agent's office. She's got

6:04

a cut on her head. She's feeling very sort

6:06

of discombobulated, and she starts

6:08

to get flashbacks. And one of the

6:10

first things we see is a sort of

6:13

like a green high shot

6:16

of a sweaty man

6:19

who's thrusting into something we

6:21

do not see. But it's violent, it's

6:23

gross, it's scary. Arabella

6:25

or Bella is a or arrow with she's

6:27

called all three things throughout She then

6:29

tries to piece together what happened

6:32

her and very soon

6:34

we we know that she's been drugged

6:36

and 8. And we also see how

6:39

her friends fit into this, including

6:41

her best mate, the sort

6:43

of aspiring actress, Terry, Ortea,

6:46

who's played by Hueruche, Opea,

6:48

and Kwame, who's played by papa,

6:51

say doo. And We're

6:53

privy to some of their sexual encounters

6:55

too. Arabella tries to get

6:57

a fellow writer, Zane, played

6:59

by Karen Gill, canceled for

7:02

assorting her in a separate incident.

7:05

And she becomes an activist and

7:07

she goes into

7:08

therapy. So first impressions, Sasha.

7:11

She's a black Londoner. She's in her late twenties.

7:13

She's a Twitter star turnover list.

7:15

We also find out that her father was separated

7:17

from her mother. We learned that he was very

7:20

unreliable. But most immediately,

7:22

for the story

7:24

and for us now, she has just been

7:26

raped in a bath toilet after

7:28

having her drink spiked. It's

7:30

it's it's tragic. It's shocking. Yeah.

7:32

It's grim. And let's let's have AAA

7:35

little list into some of the aftermath. Did

7:37

you tell him? I was told him

7:39

some. Some. Some.

7:43

What did you tell him? Told

7:45

my wife. Does he know

7:48

what? Right? No. Does he

7:50

know that he has to give his DNA? No.

7:53

Okay.

7:53

So, yes, there's about thirty percent.

7:56

That was Terry in Arabella, Mikaela,

7:58

and Hueruchi, and I may destroy

8:00

you episode five. It's written and

8:02

created by Mikaela Cole with

8:05

story consultants Sherry Myers and

8:07

Stephanie Jamsom is directed by Mikaela

8:09

Cole and Sam Miller. And we'll

8:11

give you full credits as always for all the clips

8:13

used at the end of this podcast. So,

8:16

Sasha, what would be the first thing you'd

8:18

want to address Arabella.

8:21

I

8:21

mean, I I guess we can sort of presume

8:23

she's come into you in a quite vulnerable

8:25

state. Yeah, really vulnerable.

8:28

She's traumatized. I mean, there's some different

8:30

definitions of of trauma, but it can be

8:32

anything that overwhelms your ability to cope

8:35

and she's not really coping because

8:37

she's confused, she's chaotic, she

8:40

can't make sense of these flashbacks that keep

8:42

coming in. She really doesn't know what's going

8:44

going

8:44

on. And her memory's been affected, which

8:46

is a big trauma symptom. You

8:48

know, it's it's something, unfortunately, we

8:50

all now have to consider,

8:53

you know, that potential of spiking,

8:57

having, like, blackouts, like,

8:59

hours missing, Why is it

9:01

so hard to pin

9:04

down a time line of events when you've

9:06

been a victim of this kind of crime?

9:08

We store memories in a part of the way called

9:10

the hippocampus. And one of the things that Trauma

9:12

does is Trauma being, like I say, something that

9:14

overwhelms your ability to cope when you feel that

9:16

your life is threatened. Is it insulates

9:19

the messages that go from the thinking part of the

9:21

brain, the neocortex to the limbic

9:23

brain, which is where the emotions

9:26

are felt. So it means that memories

9:28

can't get integrated into

9:30

a a normal timeline. So that's why they sort

9:32

of come in at you from from all angles

9:34

and Arabella as the neuronal system

9:37

being interrupted, the nervous system

9:39

gets completely shaken up. What the nervous

9:42

system does is it is the thing

9:44

that kind of will affect all your

9:46

hormones. So your brain's not firing

9:48

normally. The the memories can't be

9:50

slotted into their right place and your nervous

9:52

system is on high alert. It's like you're

9:54

scanning the horizon for threats

9:56

all the time. You can't connect to

9:58

people because order to connect to people.

10:01

Your nervous system has to be in a calm, relaxed

10:03

state, but it's become all jittery.

10:05

So it makes it harder to connect. It makes

10:07

her more hyper vigilant who's

10:10

out there that's going to attack me again. And

10:12

a lot of what she does is she presents as relatively

10:15

normal some at the time, but then other

10:17

times, it's like it's affected her

10:19

minds, her body, her emotions, and her

10:21

behavior. She

10:22

has the brilliant idea of getting

10:24

the Uber receipts. From her

10:26

her mate who works in the city. She

10:28

traces retraces the steps of the cab

10:31

to an address. Mhmm. And

10:33

the door opens and it's the girl

10:35

he's been cheating on his girlfriend with.

10:38

But when that door opens, she's

10:41

They're completely lost. She doesn't know how

10:43

to express

10:44

herself. She can't join the dots. She's

10:46

sort of split off different bits of

10:48

herself. But She can't make sense of these

10:50

images. She calls them images in my head.

10:53

Yes. And when she does finally go to

10:55

the police and tries to

10:57

say, I think something's happened. And

10:59

the police woman says

11:02

there's been an

11:02

assault, and she's sort of like, oh, no. Look, you're putting a name

11:04

on it now. She doesn't

11:05

want to hear it. doesn't wanna hear it. The

11:08

policeman also uses the word memories. And she's

11:10

like, no. No. It's it's the man in my head. She

11:12

can't admit that it's a memory because

11:14

that would make it real and she would have to confront

11:16

what is happened to us. So

11:17

subconsciously, her mind is

11:20

what trying to protect her.

11:22

Yeah. The the inability to form

11:24

a cohesive pick to have an ordered timeline.

11:27

It's one of the ways that her brain is adapting

11:29

to try to save off a total collapse because

11:32

a former we flooding in in Wongo could

11:34

be really overwhelming to her nervous

11:36

system. So her brain protects

11:38

her by only going through as much

11:40

reality as she can bear anyone. Time

11:43

and this is really helpful as she

11:45

starts to slowly come to terms with the enormity

11:47

of what's happened. Over the

11:49

long term, as will see. If she

11:51

hangs on to this tendency, it can

11:53

start to feel less helpful and become

11:56

more of a hindrance in itself. And

11:58

you can see that when the police women kind of

12:00

help her to understand what did

12:02

happen, she still tries to hide. She pulls

12:04

a t shirt up over her head, which is like

12:06

her horizons. Like, you do very smooth.

12:09

Yeah. And it's I think it's the first sort of visual

12:11

example of of you said she

12:13

talked a lot about it was important to her to explore

12:15

this notion of under and this is the first -- Yes.

12:17

-- time we see her going under her t shirt

12:19

to say, yeah, I can't I can't cope. This is too much

12:21

for me to have to take on

12:23

board. And why would you want to take it more? It's

12:25

disgusting and

12:26

horrible. But it definitely did happen

12:28

and it's not gonna leave her. So once she

12:30

sort of faces the truth of what has

12:32

happened. How does that affect her

12:35

symptoms of

12:36

trauma? She tries to avoid anything

12:38

that's gonna remind her and she distracts

12:40

she gets on to social media. She

12:42

even has more sex or anything, so she doesn't have

12:44

to think. But she does take some

12:46

steps to help herself. I mean, in a in a way,

12:49

she kind of does all the textbook things. She

12:51

sees it. Therapeers. She relies on her friends.

12:53

She does all the self care and exercise. Mhmm.

12:56

And most importantly, I think she tries to

12:58

re empower her self. All her power was taken

13:00

from her when she was helpless on on the floor of

13:02

that horrible toilet. So what

13:04

she needs to do is, like, we gain

13:06

a sense of mastery and control.

13:09

And one of the ways she does that is by

13:11

telling her story on social media and

13:13

telling other people story is via this sort

13:15

of huge social media account that that she gains.

13:18

With the second rape, it's Zane. It's a

13:20

very different situation. She publicly

13:22

names and shames

13:23

him. So this is all her trying to

13:26

get control of her narrative.

13:27

The people that do go that route,

13:29

where do they find the strength from? As you say,

13:31

everybody has to find their own way

13:33

through it. An empowerment for one person

13:35

can be like not telling anyone saying, this is

13:38

my thing. I'm only gonna tell a few people. I'm

13:40

choosing to hold this for

13:42

me as no one else's business. And for

13:44

other people, it's almost like the anger

13:46

against what's happened. You can put that to

13:48

good use. You can turn it into like campaigning

13:51

for new laws or like as

13:53

she does for people to take accountability. Mhmm.

13:55

Anybody say, this is how you need to do it,

13:57

whether it's a therapist or a doctor or a policeman

14:00

is disempowering

14:01

you. Yes. And what you need is to reempower

14:03

yourself in whatever way that means for you.

14:05

Feels like even more

14:08

pertinent now. This series.

14:09

Yeah. So some of the facts and figures

14:12

I've read about rape and sexual

14:14

assault and the the lack

14:16

of

14:17

justice.

14:18

No. It's out there. I mean, shows

14:20

like this. The fact that it's wildly successful

14:22

here and in the States -- Yeah. -- it's unusual for

14:25

British show. Is really heartwarming

14:27

because it means that people

14:30

give a shit and on top of that is

14:32

black

14:32

Arabella. So I'm like extra biased about

14:34

it. Being as good as it is.

14:36

Well, exactly. I mean, the power dynamic is not

14:39

just like rapists over victims. Yes.

14:41

It's it's deeper than White society over black

14:43

society. It's men over women.

14:45

It's Yeah. -- publishers over writers. I

14:47

know. She's listening from every Every

14:49

angle. Woman's genius. She is

14:51

absolutely genius. And so as

14:53

we learn, Bella's crusade to

14:55

to write all these wrongs in

14:58

the story they start to work against So

15:01

what we're gonna do after the break, let's

15:03

learn about why Bella seriously

15:05

needs a social media detox.

15:08

And also how she discovers a way

15:10

forward out of her

15:12

pain. So listen, we'll be back right after

15:14

this. Unless, of course, you're subscriber in

15:16

which case will be back quicker than you can say ego

15:18

deaf bar.

15:41

This show has brought to you in part by better

15:43

help. It's Ben here from shrink

15:45

the books. Now I've always

15:47

said that I would never

15:50

prepare a meal for someone I hadn't

15:52

tried and enjoyed myself. So

15:54

I'm really really excited because

15:57

I use better help. My current therapist

15:59

I found through better help. If

16:01

you have never heard of it, it's

16:03

basically a website

16:06

wherein you can find therapists to

16:09

support you in the easiest

16:11

possible way. I mean, it took

16:13

me just a second to see a whole

16:15

list of therapists see what they're all experts

16:18

in. Honestly, it's amazing. As

16:20

we know, therapy is a level of self exploration,

16:23

just so instrumental in helping

16:25

us deepen great relationship with ourselves

16:28

and with others. And we know how much therapy

16:30

can empower us. To be the best

16:32

version of ourselves. So you can set boundaries,

16:34

lead a balanced life. I mean, that just

16:37

sounds great to me. So get involved

16:39

and discover your potential with better help.

16:42

Visit better help dot com slash shrink

16:44

the box today to get ten percent off your first

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dot com slash shrink the books.

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We scavenged. We

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stopped. We did things. We're

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really a shooting off. Yellow

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jackets, Showtime's Emmy nominated

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18:15

So Sash talked

18:17

to me about Bella and social

18:19

media. She turns to it in

18:22

a big, big way. There's talk

18:24

about the unhealthy side of

18:25

that. For her. I mean, she's seeking the connection,

18:27

the dopamine hit of getting more likes.

18:30

But it isn't real. What she needs

18:32

is real people around her.

18:34

I think what social media does is

18:36

it fuels this binary thinking

18:38

of, I'm right, you're wrong. It's

18:41

very easy to, like, get tribal about

18:43

It can be a bit of a safety net. It can be quite

18:45

soothing when you can absolutely say

18:47

this is right and I am the victim

18:50

and I know the

18:51

answers. It can be a way again, that can

18:53

feel like taking control because it's

18:55

creating world that's

18:56

safe. A bit like I mean, we've seen it with

18:58

some several of our other other clients like

19:01

Beth makes her world safe by making it the size

19:03

of a chessboard and moving pieces around and

19:05

social media sort of a version of that.

19:07

But Ultimately, it is

19:09

all empty and it's just like another addiction.

19:12

She's chasing that dopamine hit in the same way that

19:14

we might chase it with drugs or alcohol and

19:16

the other sort of avoidance or straction

19:18

activity. So what works in the

19:20

short term can often become the problem

19:22

in the long term because the problem

19:24

it's there to disguise and then

19:26

it becomes the

19:27

problem. Yeah. I mean, I had a

19:29

year of complete sobriety

19:31

from everything in twenty

19:33

seventeen. I don't think it's coincidence

19:36

that in the same period, I just

19:38

quit social media. That was the last thing

19:40

I had, really. I was dealing

19:42

with, you know, an intense levels of

19:44

depression. Once I, you know, I'd

19:46

I'd started to combat the depression, you

19:49

know, to sort help in in therapy, and

19:51

I suddenly realize, oh my god, Twitter is

19:54

is making me feel depressed

19:55

again. Yeah. I'd wake up and check

19:57

it. And the first thing I would read would be,

19:59

you know, some celebrity making

20:01

a comment and then the first reply underneath

20:04

would be telling them

20:04

to, like, I hope your kids

20:06

get hit by a car or something. I thought,

20:08

why don't I start my day this way? Yeah.

20:10

This is an instant fix and it's

20:12

when the difficult feelings start to come

20:14

up rather than address them because they

20:16

are difficult and painful. It's easy to

20:18

reach for the drink or the drugs

20:21

or the phone -- Mhmm. -- and distract herself from

20:23

having to connect to the to the feelings. So

20:25

it's completely understandable why she wouldn't

20:27

wanna go there because she's she's traumatized.

20:30

But, yeah, like you say, long term, it's gonna

20:33

feed all that kind of I'm right.

20:35

You're wrong. You don't know anything and

20:37

that just feeds 8. And

20:40

division. It's not

20:41

real. I mean, you and I have spent more

20:43

than half our lives without --

20:45

Yeah. -- any of this technology. Yeah.

20:48

I may destroy you sort of reminds you that young

20:50

people just don't have that option

20:52

that they've grown up with it.

20:54

Yeah. remember what changing the documentary,

20:57

the social dilemma on Netflix,

20:59

and they interviewed the creator

21:01

of Instagram. And he was talking

21:04

about the technology behind

21:06

the the swipe to refresh

21:08

thing, like dropping the screen down so it refreshes.

21:11

Yeah. He said that everything around

21:13

the thinking behind that was akin

21:16

to, you know, heroine dealing.

21:18

It's actually like getting someone

21:20

hooked on what might be next Yeah. That's

21:22

not enough so you can go again, keep going.

21:24

And the interviewer do you you've got teenage

21:27

kids? Do they use it? He said, fuck no.

21:29

Let's hear a bit from Arabella,

21:32

actually, along these lines. Hello.

21:34

Congratulations. Hi. Thanks

21:36

for having today. Tell

21:38

me you guys get to leave. Yeah. So

21:42

let's do it. Oh, okay. We need to

21:44

be frank abating your skin. Literally,

21:47

your birth It's my god. Oh,

21:49

we'll do a YouTube channel.

21:51

Mhmm. And I'm inside In this

21:53

segment, there's oh my god. Do we

21:55

end door's

21:56

house. My love it. Oh, you got a

21:58

night.

22:00

Us. I don't take that stuff.

22:03

Okay. That's that's all shit. I kinda

22:05

trust you like that. Yeah. We probably

22:07

should. Yes. No. Of course. Yes, sir. Says

22:10

Arabella. So

22:12

she's she's in the she's in

22:15

the interview room with the the police

22:17

a couple and immediately

22:20

turning the thing into

22:22

what it might become on social

22:25

media rather than you

22:26

know, what's actually happening in

22:28

the moment. Mhmm. And

22:30

she does that in the doctor's office as well. I mean, she's

22:32

in the process of getting a diagnosis for

22:34

her blood pressure. Just to stop in talking

22:37

and do a little instant post about

22:39

--

22:39

Yeah. -- what's

22:40

going on? I mean, she just can't stop. So

22:42

we talked a bit about fake love from

22:44

social media. Arabella. But what

22:46

about tea? Mhmm. You know?

22:49

Because she's, like, really loyal

22:51

and supportive and and Bella

22:53

doesn't seem to see it.

22:54

Velez was become very narrow and

22:56

very single minded and that is a way of keeping

22:58

herself safe and not having to question

23:00

because if she's controlling the world,

23:03

then things can't can't answer to her. And like I

23:05

said, she's almost very physiological. It

23:07

it resides in the nervous system. And

23:09

that's where we have our ability

23:12

to connect or to feel people

23:14

are not safe. So if that's all

23:16

all been shaken up, she can't really connect

23:18

with tea in the same way and they've clearly weak conceiving

23:21

the flashbacks that they've been friends since like

23:23

forever since they were they were

23:25

kids, and she's sort of taking

23:27

her granted a little bit, I think.

23:30

But she also doesn't really know who to trust

23:32

because she finds out later that actually

23:34

he was slightly involved in that he

23:36

almost gave permission to say he'll just leave her

23:38

there. So everybody that she thought was

23:41

was there for her is in some way

23:43

implicated. But that's why

23:45

I think it's such an interesting show about

23:47

friendship because we're all

23:49

flawed and we all want to be great and they have this

23:51

phrase that they use there, that they use a lot about your

23:53

birth is my birth, and your death is my death, and it's

23:55

like, you know, we're we're sisters to to

23:57

the end. And Bella screws up because

24:00

she does become selfish and she does

24:03

not see how how lovely tea

24:05

is being. And lot of tea's loveliness

24:07

is guilt. I think she feels she

24:09

feels implicated. But I think it shows

24:11

us that friendship can't be taken for granted,

24:14

and you do have to work at it. So as

24:16

well, you have to, like, work at any relationship and

24:18

that's gonna be hard. When your

24:20

ability to connect has been shaken

24:22

up by trauma.

24:23

Absolutely. There's a line in the show

24:25

where one of the characters says to

24:27

Arabella, I thought you were writing about

24:29

consent. And

24:31

Arabella says, yeah. So

24:33

did I? And it's

24:36

it's at the heart of this show. Underneath

24:39

everything else. Let's just have a listen to this

24:41

this clip here.

24:42

I've found the line of

24:45

being neither in one place. Or

24:47

another and saw how in this gray

24:49

area, when nothing was quite

24:51

clear, no one

24:54

could be clear.

24:57

They can't articulate 8 couple

25:00

of words. They couldn't

25:02

pinpoint exactly what it was. He did that we

25:04

felt was so wrong. So, yeah, Bob

25:06

thinks you're crazy. Yeah. He thinks

25:08

he's the smartest man in the room who knows all

25:10

the things because Bob has observed

25:13

the

25:13

detail. We have

25:15

to start observing op.

25:18

Unbelievable though that exists

25:20

in a -- Yeah. -- quote

25:22

unquote mainstream television

25:24

show because it's just it's right

25:26

there that truth of what she's saying

25:29

is it got me thinking about

25:31

these guys that, you know, get

25:33

accused of doing x, y, and

25:35

z, and they flat out tonight.

25:38

A hundred counts against them. Mhmm.

25:41

When when I hear that, I start

25:43

thinking, But maybe

25:45

he believes it. That's the thing. That's why

25:47

exploitation and consent is

25:49

such a tricky thing because what one person

25:51

believes is consent. Another person doesn't

25:53

believe it's consent. And it it does become sort

25:55

of he Essiedu, she said. Obviously, the first

25:58

where you pinned the toilet where she was drugged,

26:00

that's click up. There's no question

26:02

that was rape. The other incidents that

26:04

happened to her when she's having sex, consentually,

26:07

was saying halfway through without her knowledge, she

26:09

takes the condom off. She learned

26:11

and and I learned that that's what self thing.

26:13

That's what self thing means. He

26:16

claims that he thought she knew what he was

26:18

doing? Is he claiming that or did he genuinely

26:21

think that? We don't know. Does he know? I'm

26:23

not I'm not sure. But to her,

26:25

I might have given consent for the first it. I

26:27

did not give consent to that. So it's like, at what

26:29

point does it become non consensual,

26:32

which also the other really nuanced

26:34

and and tricky consent thing is, Terry,

26:37

willingly goes into a threesome with two men

26:39

in Italy that she thinks it's just sort

26:41

of organically happens that she's met these

26:43

two guys in a bar and she's chosen to take

26:45

them back. Then over the course of the series,

26:48

you get these little clues that

26:50

actually she was played. They knew

26:52

each other. They set her up to think

26:54

it was her idea. And that

26:56

changes, retrospectively, everything

26:58

that she thought about that situation. It's

27:01

not

27:01

Essiedu. It's all in that gray

27:04

key. Yeah. Absolutely. Because if those two guys

27:07

were challenged earlier in,

27:09

I think, before she knew that --

27:10

Yeah. -- she would have gone, hey, leave him alone

27:12

now. Like, I wanted to do that.

27:13

Exactly. Click. So

27:14

yeah, you're right. The the levels of nuance.

27:16

But the fact that this show even gets us to think

27:18

about that stuff. But it also shows

27:20

that that gray area is really

27:23

tricky, which is why it's so much safer

27:25

to recede into, I'm right, you're

27:27

wrong, and why that whole binary nature

27:29

of social media is so appealing

27:31

to her and why ultimately she can't

27:34

stay with that. I mean, there's a really good episode, a Halloween

27:36

episode where they visually depict

27:38

that Bella is dressed in black. She's like

27:40

a black devil and tea is

27:42

dressed in white like a white angel and

27:44

you kinda see that there's

27:47

sort tipped over into being a bit of a monster,

27:49

she's become so convinced in her own rightness,

27:51

her own victimhood, her own kind

27:53

of no I'm the one that was

27:55

wronged, and therefore, I've got to call

27:57

everybody else out. There's a

28:00

psychoanalytic analyst, one of

28:02

the first women actually Melanie Klein, and she

28:04

identified this as a sort of a developmental

28:06

phase that children go through. It's called splitting,

28:08

fill up with fairy tales. You've got the good,

28:10

normally, dead mom, and the evil living

28:12

step And it's always very

28:15

easy to know who is the goodie

28:17

and who is the baddie. And splitting

28:19

is what we do as children because we

28:21

haven't got the maturity. To work

28:23

in the gray. That's a developmental phase that

28:25

we have to pass through from

28:28

black and white thinking to more complex thinking.

28:31

She also has to move from that quite

28:33

basic child like split

28:35

phase. The ability to live in the complex,

28:38

to live in the gray, but then

28:40

it feels less

28:41

safe. Absolutely. She then has to admit

28:43

that she's been wrong, that she's hurt quite made,

28:45

that she's hurt tea.

28:46

Which

28:46

is a totally different position. Yeah.

28:48

Speaking of Kwame, this term

28:50

fraudulism.

28:51

Yeah. What can you tell us about

28:54

that? It was another new one.

28:56

It's a new one. It's a new one. I've learned a lot this

28:59

show. So, Kwame, Constancia,

29:01

has sex with a guy that he meets

29:03

online. And then, at the end, He's

29:06

trying to leave, and this guy throws him

29:08

on the beds and indulges in flutterism,

29:11

which is I think sort of dry humping

29:13

is how it's described. And Kwame

29:15

is not consenting to that, but he

29:17

feels again he chose to go in the room he'd already

29:20

had sex with the guy. Mhmm. But he realizes

29:22

actually that wasn't okay, goes

29:24

to report it and has almost the opposite

29:27

experience to Arabella, where she was

29:29

treated very well by those police woman and they took

29:31

her seriously and they made her feel safe.

29:34

Gourmet gets a male police officer

29:36

who's just so Dismissed

29:38

it. Oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, it's tragic, and

29:40

he makes Quami feel stupid. He's like, well, what exactly

29:42

is it that you're reporting? And so

29:45

Quami, quite understands a bully

29:47

says, oh, don't don't bother. But the the

29:49

other thing is, if we've been abused

29:51

early in life, we don't always know

29:53

that we've got the option to say

29:55

no. So that's another kind of consent.

29:57

That's very true because the line has been crossed.

29:59

We've experienced it. We've sort of moved

30:01

on with that as the

30:03

norm. Yeah. When it happens again, you just

30:05

go, yeah. Well, that's kind of what I get. That's what

30:07

happens to Yeah. Yeah. I don't have enough value.

30:09

I'm not allowed to say no to anything. So

30:11

if I say no, I'll get here till they just won't

30:13

like me. People come with some very sort of

30:15

people pleasing. So it's not just about

30:17

giving to the other person. It's almost

30:19

like giving permission to yourself to be able to

30:21

say no. And if you haven't been brought

30:23

up in an environment where you're

30:25

allowed to say no, anything, then

30:28

that that consent line is really

30:29

blurred. They can feel really shaming

30:32

to say no to something. Big

30:34

time. No. We we touched on

30:36

Kwame's, you know, situation there

30:39

with another man, but he also has a situation

30:41

with a girl.

30:41

Mhmm. Yeah. That's nice. Shows

30:44

up. Some some racial

30:45

politics -- Mhmm. -- which I found

30:48

fascinating and a kind controversial.

30:50

And there's homophobia in there and there's sexual

30:52

beauty but race is really prevalent. This

30:55

is part of her dating profile. So it's something like

30:57

I love black guys or something. This

30:59

is this is stuff I've experienced in in my

31:01

own life. Mhmm. But, yeah, it starts to

31:03

come in a little bit more around. What do you

31:05

think 8 is trying to

31:08

show us with this

31:09

stuff. Well, again, I think she's sort of

31:11

showing all the different ways in which people

31:13

can be objectified and

31:15

exploited. What was it

31:17

like for you to see or maybe objectified

31:19

in that way? Well, it was a horrible reminder

31:21

of of times when I've been

31:24

fetishized. And and and, you know, a lot of

31:26

black people would have been through this and mixed race

31:28

people as well where sort of you

31:30

become like a

31:32

sexual fantasy because of the

31:34

unknown. Mhmm. something that

31:36

you haven't tried before. Mhmm. So

31:39

then we start to get treated like flavor

31:41

of ice cream on some things, you

31:44

know, rather than a human being. And of course,

31:46

all our bodies really if we're just

31:48

talking about sex the just

31:51

the physicality of it. Yeah. Well, bodies

31:53

are the same. So it's a nonsense

31:55

because if you grew up around

31:57

people of color, if you always had friends, people

31:59

color, people color in your family, if

32:02

you were attracted by coincidence

32:04

-- Yeah. -- to someone who happened to be

32:06

a person of color. You would never

32:08

say those things. You just it wouldn't

32:10

even come into your head. I found it kind of

32:12

refreshing for her to touch on

32:15

that. The other ring. It comes

32:17

up so much in so many different ways

32:19

in this show. There was one bit where

32:22

she says oh, yeah. No. Feminism didn't really

32:24

mean much to me. I was too busy being poor and black.

32:26

And you kind of being I mean, hilarious because

32:29

she's such a brilliant writer, but also oh

32:31

my god, of course, you know, being able to have

32:33

these sort of kind of, like, hopefully, and ideas

32:36

of, you know, how do how do I kind of

32:38

individuate and be my best

32:39

self? And actually, you're being put

32:41

down and you've got no money and You've

32:44

got other issues that are gonna take

32:47

precedence. There's another sort of

32:49

therapeutic theory. Abraham Maslow

32:51

had something called the hierarchy of needs

32:53

where he said that you can only attend

32:56

to those higher things. First, you've

32:58

got your physiological needs. You've got to be

33:00

able to breathe and be fade.

33:02

More children. Yeah. Yeah. And then you've got

33:04

on top of that, you've got the ability to

33:06

find a job and have that needs met.

33:09

And then you get to look at love and belonging.

33:11

And then once you've got the love and belonging, one

33:13

sorted. Then you might have a bit of energy

33:16

left over to think about your self Essiedu, and

33:18

then you might start to get into self actualization

33:20

and being being the best up. If you haven't got the base

33:22

of the pyramid, if you're feeling unsafe,

33:25

you're not gonna start thinking, oh, what is the what

33:27

is the say of, you know, women today? Exactly.

33:29

I mean, there's really interest things have on this subject.

33:31

There's a really interesting character, Penny,

33:34

who is the publisher, who is black.

33:36

And -- Mhmm. -- initially, bella's

33:38

kinda like delighted. I'm a apology

33:40

or black. Black publishing is 8. A successful

33:43

black woman. But Henny is

33:45

so awful on so many levels.

33:47

And I wondered how you responded to

33:50

having been delighted at such a huge black cast

33:52

and then you get this like hideous

33:53

woman. Honestly, I thought it was hilarious and

33:55

brilliant I was so glad not to see

33:57

a kind of sisterhood thing

34:00

going on because

34:01

that's the real world. Yeah. Not every

34:03

black person is nice because they're black Yeah.

34:05

Now every white liberal is nice because they're

34:07

white and liberal. Like, it ran the

34:09

full gamut. And it was great. Well,

34:11

small to my face has reminded me of a sketch by

34:14

key impaled to biracial comedians

34:17

in the

34:17

8. They had a sketch about

34:19

a a white

34:21

Arabella group at

34:23

college, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Like the gliulo.

34:25

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And they've got this one

34:27

black member who's like just as nerdy as

34:30

them and, you know, loves loves

34:32

the the club and stuff. And then

34:34

they were they do some new recruits. And

34:36

one of the new recruits is also black.

34:38

And also really nerdy. Whenever

34:41

they're left alone, they're like, yo motherfucker.

34:43

I'm the only one here. Right? I've been I've been working

34:45

this doing what it is for years. It's it's

34:48

absolutely hilarious.

34:49

But, you know, it's sort of making a serious

34:52

point that there are these places

34:54

-- Yeah. --

34:54

that we're not expected to be

34:56

seen. Yeah. And if there's

34:59

two of us in that space, It's

35:01

not necessarily yeah. It's not necessarily

35:03

yeah. There's another one. Yeah.

35:05

It can be. Yeah. This this sad

35:08

hang up. That we've got where we almost

35:10

look at that person as a direct --

35:12

Yeah. -- rival. Yeah. You know, this

35:14

show, makes us

35:16

think about all of these things because it has

35:18

this overarching

35:20

approach of, like, we're gonna talk

35:22

about power. Yeah.

35:24

In all shapes and forms. Yeah. You know,

35:26

how you can wield it, how you can lose it, how you

35:28

can regain it -- Yeah. -- how you can abuse it.

35:30

Yeah.

35:35

Let's think back into the inter therapeutic

35:38

terms Tela obviously suffered

35:40

devastating trauma. How

35:42

is she making progress? It involves

35:45

having to face the

35:46

pain. She can't keep running away from

35:48

it. And she's talked a lot

35:50

about this under when she gets the

35:53

bin bags full of the clothes that the police took, and

35:55

she shoves them under her bed. And

35:57

she's in a session with the counselor

36:00

who draws this diagram where

36:02

she says, look, this is what you've done. You've drawn

36:04

a line. You've allowed into consciousness

36:06

certain things. And you've kept out of

36:09

consciousness other things, and they're all under the

36:11

line. And I think the bin bags under the bed show

36:13

that she's kind of trying to bury so

36:15

much. Vela starts to make progress

36:17

when she pulls the bin bags out from under

36:19

the bed. And she's confronted

36:22

not just with the night of the wait, but

36:24

other memories like the memory

36:26

of an abortion, the memory of her dad's

36:29

infidelity of her dad's

36:31

unreliability see all these different

36:33

bits of her life that have never really made

36:35

sense, that have been kept separate, that have been kept

36:37

silos, start to come

36:40

back to her. And there's

36:42

a moment where she deletes the social media

36:44

and she just sits there surrounded by the bin

36:46

bags. And you can see that she's stopped

36:48

looking outside of herself, and

36:51

she's just stopped. She's got a moment. She's

36:53

just being with the yeah. I've dealt

36:55

with some shit. I've actually

36:57

really found this painful and it's

36:59

that confrontation with with the truth

37:01

with all those different bits of herself and this

37:04

a really lovely moment where she makes

37:06

up with tea after the sort of the argument of

37:08

her being so convinced of her her rightness. She can

37:10

acknowledge that she was wrong. She apologized Aqua

37:13

Me for being horrible to him. She apologized to

37:15

tea. And she and she stand their hands

37:17

in hand surveying, like, the the

37:19

bin bag shit. And it's like, yeah,

37:21

hands in hand with my friends acknowledging

37:23

that you fucked up. I fucked up. We're both

37:25

selfish people. We're both flawed. And of course,

37:28

we are because we're real, but our friendship can withstand

37:30

that. And together, we're gonna go into the the

37:32

the boob bags of truth, and then she can

37:34

start to move through it because she's integrated

37:37

all those different blit off parts into

37:39

one whole, yeah, I'm flawed,

37:41

and I'm scared, but I'm also powerful and

37:44

I'm also great at certain things and not so great

37:46

other things.

37:47

Sometimes we do just need to switch

37:49

everything else off to to let

37:51

let the mind breathe. Like you say,

37:53

she's she's pulled out the the carnage

37:55

of her life and looked at it. And then there's

37:57

this bit at the end where she goes back to

38:00

visit BIJO. In Italy

38:02

her her Italian lover and he kicks

38:04

her out. She wades into the

38:06

sea

38:07

and disappears under -- Yeah.

38:09

Not the -- under the waist. Yeah. I

38:12

think that's a really lovely way to sort of

38:14

end it and sort of I think the lead ups

38:16

of that is really important as well because

38:18

the whole story really has been about

38:20

her trying to write the book and not being able to gather

38:22

the bits of her story and it all being fragmented as

38:25

her mind has been fragmented. And she finally

38:27

gets to the point where she's got all the different

38:29

chapters with the dads in Fidelity

38:31

and the abortion. And they're all on post

38:33

it notes, and she finally, she's moving them all

38:35

around the room, and they finally make a coherent

38:38

narrative. And there's finally a coherent story

38:40

in all the bits joined up.

38:43

And like I said before, the neocortex and the

38:45

limbic had stopped talking to each other.

38:47

And now she's sort of making sense. Gonna

38:49

she's got her story line. And in order to,

38:51

like, finish the story line, she goes back

38:53

to Italy to back where it began, and she

38:55

now knows this is me. This is me with

38:57

all all those bits in intact. And It

39:00

is a lovely kind of like baptism metaphor.

39:02

She goes under the water and she's sort of like

39:04

reborn more complete. Because

39:06

she's allowed in all these darker bits

39:08

that she didn't wanna look at because it was easier

39:10

to

39:11

say, I'm right. You're wrong. I'm the victim. You're

39:13

the shithead. I'm trying to

39:15

fuck for that moment because there's there's some

39:17

bleak elements that show that leave you

39:19

feeling, oh my

39:20

god. Yeah. How

39:21

did

39:22

how did any of us maneuver? And Through

39:24

life with with with these intense

39:27

pressures. But we all do. That's

39:28

We do it in a fine way. Yeah. When we

39:30

do it by letting all the bits play

39:32

their role really and all the post it

39:34

notes kind of get to where it's up to

39:37

cohesion, even the bits we don't want in

39:39

there really.

39:39

Incredible show. So glad we got

39:42

to do Bella

39:42

soon. Too early on in the season.

39:45

And thank you to everyone out there for

39:47

your suggestions for other characters. You

39:49

wanna see covered. Excitingly, we

39:51

have emails from all over the world,

39:53

which just brings such a smile to

39:56

my face. I've got one here actually from

39:58

Sally moored who says almost

40:00

any character from better call saw, please.

40:03

And I agree with you so much, Sally,

40:05

because I I'm obsessed with that

40:07

series. Kim Wexler or

40:10

Chuck McGill -- Mhmm. -- her favorite

40:12

to Wendy from Ozark, Wendy

40:14

is on our list. She was one of my first suggestions

40:17

when we started putting this show together. Don't worry

40:19

about that, Sally. She says best of luck with

40:21

this ingenious pod. Mhmm. Looking forward

40:23

to further psychobabble or perhaps psychowitter.

40:27

And all the way from Brisbane in Australia,

40:29

Joe says she'd love to hear

40:31

Jack's teller. From sons of anarchy

40:34

on the therapist's

40:35

couch. I've not watched that

40:36

show. Yeah. So on, I'm gonna I'm

40:38

gonna stick it on my very long little

40:41

notes page of shit that I've

40:43

never caught around to watching is

40:46

the one about an outlaw motorcycle club.

40:48

So, yeah, thanks, Joe. It hit us up

40:50

if you have more at shrink the box at

40:53

something else dot com that shrink the

40:55

box at something without the g Essiedu

40:57

dot com and and make sure you follow us

40:59

on apple podcast Stitcher Spotify,

41:02

Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts,

41:05

to get new episodes and find out what we're

41:07

doing. And if you wanna listen to shrink the box,

41:09

ad free, you know what to do. Subscribe

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41:19

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41:21

episodes. And they've got tons

41:23

of extra stuff, man. They've got 8 three or

41:25

four extra bits they do each week, so there's loads

41:27

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41:30

trial now by clicking try free

41:32

at the top of the shrink the box show page on

41:34

Apple Podcasts or by visiting extra

41:36

takes dot com. Just time

41:39

to thank our production Production

41:41

management is Lilly Hambly. The assistant

41:43

producer is Ehrton. media

41:46

is Jonathan Essiedu. Studio

41:48

mix engineer is Jay Beale. The senior

41:50

producer is Selena Roehm and executive

41:52

producer is Simon Paul

41:54

Sasha. Drum roll.

41:56

Mhmm. Who

41:56

are we looking at next week?

41:58

This is gonna be a Netflix drama

42:00

from twenty fifteen. It ran for three seasons.

42:03

And it is set in the stunning Florida

42:05

Keys. Okay. If you've seen it, you've

42:07

probably waved about it particularly the performance

42:10

of the brilliance, Ben Mendelson.

42:12

Take a listen. I

42:16

always thought the greatest thing that happened to me

42:18

was being born or Raven.

42:23

Forty five years ago this weekend, me and

42:25

with Sally opened the door seats.

42:30

I'd like to say a few words about my

42:32

kids. There's men, Kevin,

42:36

John, and last but not least

42:38

is Danny. The one who

42:40

got away, you might say. No

42:44

work down with you being here, isn't?

42:46

Your

42:46

son. Bad things follow

42:48

you around. Don't they? Yeah.

42:52

Very bad things. Yeah. Is

42:54

bloodline Now I'm I'm sure there's

42:57

plenty of people who've seen it, but I'm also sure that

42:59

there's a few that haven't. I'm I'm always raving

43:01

about this show, and I'm always surprised

43:03

how many people have have not cotton

43:05

on to it. And it's it's right there on Netflix.

43:08

Most people have got Netflix, so it's kinda easy

43:10

to find if you can't find it there and obviously just

43:12

watch dot com always. Have your back.

43:14

But yeah, Bloodline is gripping.

43:17

And and the first season in particular, I think

43:19

the first season is almost flawless. Television.

43:22

So I'm gonna presume from that

43:24

clip, we must be covering the

43:26

Mendelson's character, Danny. Yeah.

43:29

We are. I mean, Danny is so

43:31

fascinating. He is the black sheep

43:33

who returns home to this idyllic

43:35

beachfront hotel to the

43:37

Weyburn family, highly respected family.

43:40

And, yeah, with his return, everything

43:42

goes pear shaped. And

43:44

what we what we're gonna be looking at So from

43:47

a therapeutic angle, Vedani.

43:49

Well, I mean, there's lots in there. I think it's

43:51

really interesting to look at how difficult it

43:53

is. To move beyond the

43:55

roles that get assigned to

43:56

us at an early age and about

43:59

the sibling high o r keys and the the

44:01

stuckness and how siblings

44:03

can sort of make and shape us

44:05

really. But it's also about being haunted by the

44:07

past. It's about

44:08

girls. It's about family secrets. Have

44:10

something looks too good to be true than it probably

44:13

is.

44:13

Yeah. And it also starts some, like,

44:16

Hollywood. Like, everywhere.

44:19

Sam Shepherd. Yeah. Sissy Spacehead.

44:22

I mean, Kyle Chandler, I

44:25

just love it. There's an underlying

44:27

threat to him. I know if you've ever seen the

44:30

Jason 8 movie game night, which is of

44:32

hilarious comedy action movie.

44:34

But he plays his perfect older

44:36

brother --

44:37

Yeah. -- funnily enough. Yeah. And you realize

44:39

very quickly that there's there's something

44:41

underneath

44:42

that going on. So think Cole is

44:44

great at that. So he's brilliant in it too.

44:46

Two of the creators of this show, Todd and

44:48

Glenn

44:49

Essiedu, were writers on

44:52

little quiz question for you. What?

44:55

Would

44:55

it be this bonus? Yeah. You

44:57

know, we start as we mean to go on some front ends

44:59

on First episode, but

45:02

the writing is so phenomenal. And

45:04

what all those writers learned on that show,

45:07

they went off into

45:09

the wilderness and worked on shows

45:11

like Bloodline and and of course mad men

45:13

and and many others is a good

45:15

good breeding ground for good good

45:17

writers. Alright. It's about that

45:20

time. So I'm gonna go and recap

45:22

on season one of Bloodline on Netflix.

45:24

Pretend I'm on that Florida beach drinking

45:26

that ice cold beer -- Mhmm. -- around that

45:29

red hot

45:29

alligator. Oh, no.

45:32

Hopefully, no. Well, hopefully, no alligators

45:34

and hopefully, no Danny Raven either hit

45:36

my ins into her apps, the the the

45:38

Idyll

45:39

somewhat. Yeah.

45:39

Or any of those. Ravers to be very

45:41

good. Yeah.

45:42

Absolute nightmare. Well, more of that next

45:44

time. See you then.

45:45

Bye. Bye bye.

45:50

Alright. As always, it is time

45:52

for us to celebrate the people behind

45:54

the scenes on these incredible shows. Let's

45:56

never forget The important

45:59

people that make these shows so

46:01

special. So I may destroy

46:03

you was, of course, created and written

46:05

by Mikaela Cole. And the

46:07

story consultants were Sherry Myers,

46:09

Stephanie Jansen, and Ron Kaye

46:11

Deckalouja. At the top of the show, we

46:13

had Arabella on the phone to

46:15

Biajio. Who's played by Marwan Zotti.

46:18

That was episode five. It just

46:20

came up. The Arabella

46:22

and Terry, who's played by

46:24

Weruci appear, congratulate

46:27

officer Beth and officer Fermi

46:29

on their pregnancies, played by Sarah

46:32

Niles and Mariah Gail. That's from

46:34

episode eight LINE spectrum

46:36

border. The production companies for

46:38

I may destroy you are Fortnite

46:40

productions, the BBC and HBO.

46:43

Thanks very much for the BBC actually for the clips

46:45

and thank you guys for listening.