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0:36

Smith

0:57

I'm Sasha Bates and this is

0:59

Shrink the Box where as always

1:01

we put our favorite fictional TV characters

1:04

into therapy. We're going to get to the heart

1:07

of why these characters make life so hard

1:09

for themselves or maybe it's

1:12

not their fault. Speaking of which, Sasha,

1:15

tell us about that clip that we just heard

1:17

at the top.

1:17

That was John Rayburn talking

1:20

about his brother Danny Rayburn from

1:22

the series Bloodline, which came out on

1:24

Netflix in 2015 and is still

1:26

available to watch, which I really

1:29

urge people to do because it's brilliant.

1:32

But even if you haven't seen

1:34

there's still so much to explore

1:36

here about family dynamics and

1:38

about responsibility and blame

1:40

and grievances and how they can get thrown

1:43

around slightly willy-nilly.

1:45

But they always to land at the foot of one person.

1:47

And in this case, it is the Wayward

1:50

Son, Danny. But yeah, Yeah, we'll see that

1:52

he might not actually be the only

1:54

problem in this seemingly perfect family.

1:56

Hmm. Yeah. I mean for me,

1:59

this is the most underrated show on

2:01

Netflix. I think it's maybe the most underrated

2:04

show to come out of the United States in

2:06

the past 10 years.

2:08

I can't think of a show that's sort of

2:10

affected me in the same way,

2:12

that's made me feel so

2:15

uncomfortable at times, so on

2:17

the edge of my seat, and

2:19

also so weirdly relatable.

2:22

I mean, I don't have a family that is

2:24

involved with murder or drugs or

2:26

anything like that, but there's

2:28

something about the dynamics that they put on

2:31

display that I think anybody

2:33

who watches this show is

2:35

going to get something from. Yeah,

2:37

I mean, I really agree. It really shows

2:40

how the family is a system. It's

2:42

like a business and everybody kind

2:44

of plays their role. If you want a cog in

2:46

the wheel of that family business,

2:48

and that common pull towards wanting

2:51

to make it all about one person, make

2:53

everything their fault, make them shoulder

2:55

the blame, because then the rest of us don't have to look at what

2:57

our part in the system has

2:58

been. Yeah. So coming up,

3:01

we're going to be looking at Trouble in Paradise.

3:03

We're going to look at... The only sympathy

3:05

you can get is from a ghost. And

3:07

as ever, this is going to feature

3:09

some horrific spoilers, sex,

3:12

drugs, fratricide. There's going

3:15

to be a lot of adult content. You wouldn't expect

3:17

anything less from us, though. Come on, man. Let's

3:19

shrink the box.

3:24

So

3:24

for you lucky listeners

3:27

out there that haven't yet watched

3:29

Bloodline, I'm incredibly jealous of you,

3:31

but here are the sort of broad strokes, right?

3:34

Sally and Robert Rayburn,

3:36

who I should just say are played by

3:38

Sissy Spacek and Sam Shepard.

3:41

So you know, you're dealing with Hollywood royalty

3:43

from the start. They have this party

3:45

to celebrate 45 years

3:47

running this beautiful inn,

3:50

which is a stunning beachside spot in the Florida

3:52

Keys. And their children,

3:55

all adults, John, Megan and

3:57

Kevin, live locally and... they

4:00

attend the party. Their other son, Danny,

4:03

reluctantly returns. He's been gone

4:05

for a long time and everybody's cautious around

4:07

him, they're edgy around him. He wants to stay.

4:09

The only person who seems happy about that

4:11

is his mum,

4:12

Sally. His dad dies

4:15

quite early on in the series of a stroke, which

4:18

sort of paves the way for Danny

4:20

to work at the inn and try

4:23

and sort of get himself back into this family

4:25

structure. There's clearly some huge

4:27

secrets being held and Danny gets

4:29

involved with some bad people,

4:32

drug dealers, people traffickers, and

4:34

things go south pretty darn

4:37

quick. So we're going to be

4:39

looking at

4:40

Daniel Rayburn, played by Ben

4:42

Mendelsohn. He's going to be Sasha's

4:45

client this week. And Sasha, what can you

4:47

tell us about Danny?

4:48

Yeah, he's the eldest sibling of the Rayburn

4:50

family who live in Paradise,

4:53

what looks like Paradise, Isla Madora

4:55

in the Florida Keys. I think he's

4:57

about in his 40s when we meet him, but

5:00

he's been haunted by something that happened

5:02

when he was 15, which has

5:04

sort of come to define him and the rest of the

5:06

family. And that is that he took his

5:08

10-year-old sister Sarah out on the family

5:10

boat, something that he was not meant to do,

5:13

and she drowned. But also he's

5:15

haunted in in addition by the memories of a

5:18

horrific beating that he got from

5:20

his dad, Robert, afterwards. So bad

5:22

that he got shoulder injury, which he is still suffering

5:24

from, and he now is addicted

5:26

to painkillers because of that shoulder

5:29

injury. But I think what that shows is

5:31

that, you know, the physical scars are still there. But

5:33

so, as we come to learn, so are the emotional

5:36

scars. This event, they are all

5:38

carrying

5:39

it. Yeah. In the immediate aftermath

5:41

of the sister's death, the

5:43

police investigation, you can see

5:46

in flashback form, all the kids are

5:49

coached to give a different

5:52

story. Yeah. That Danny was hit by

5:54

a car, it was a hit and run. more

5:56

than one dark thing has happened to

5:58

Danny before we-

5:59

even meet him. Let's have a listen

6:02

to his brother John breaking it down.

6:19

We're

6:30

kids that you don't know anything about. He's been

6:32

through enough.

6:32

What does he mean, been through? Sarah.

6:36

Danny killed our sister. He

6:38

did not kill her. I remember

6:40

Sarah drowned. After

6:44

Sarah died. I've been saying

6:46

sorry my whole life. That was from the

6:48

season one recap of Bloodline

6:50

from Netflix. It was created and written by Glenn

6:52

Kessler, Todd Kessler and Daniel Zellman.

6:55

And we heard all the Rayburns there. Kyle Chandler

6:58

as John, Sam Shepard as the

7:00

dad Robert, Norbert Leo Butz

7:02

as Kevin, Linda Cardellini

7:04

as Megan and Ben Mendelsohn

7:07

as Danny, is made by KSK Productions

7:09

and in association with Sony Pictures Television.

7:12

There's a different director for every episode, so

7:14

we'll give you all that stuff in

7:16

full alongside all the subsequent

7:18

clip info at the end of this podcast.

7:21

Clearly you feel like a lot is to

7:23

be uncovered. You're constantly

7:26

analyzing each family

7:28

member,

7:30

thinking about what you know they know,

7:32

what you know they remember, and

7:35

how they use it to sort

7:37

of get a kind of one-upmanship. It's

7:40

such a complicated

7:42

family in a lot of ways, because it also

7:44

has this famous name. Throughout

7:47

the series you hear people saying, oh, the Rayburn name means

7:49

a lot around these

7:50

They really are like stalwarts, pillars of

7:52

the community and the three

7:54

that have stayed, jobs that the three of

7:56

them do and that Danny do, it

7:59

kind of shows that the...

7:59

roles that we are put in or

8:02

take on board very early

8:04

on often become the jobs that we do as adults.

8:06

I think it's

8:07

brilliantly observed all of that stuff. Yeah,

8:09

because they've been, they're so good at them. They've

8:11

been used to doing it. John is the sort of justice

8:13

bringer within the family. He becomes

8:16

a policeman. Meg is constantly

8:18

looking at what's right and wrong and struggling

8:20

with that herself. So she becomes

8:23

a lawyer. And Kevin, the baby

8:25

is...

8:25

He gets away with a bit more. He

8:28

looks like a baby throughout. He's always

8:30

just in like pants and

8:33

a vest. And he's constantly

8:35

hugging a beer bottle.

8:36

The tendency often is that the youngest gets

8:38

away with a lot more. Whereas John,

8:41

who's the second oldest, is played

8:43

out with him becoming a police officer and upholding

8:45

the law. And I think partly why he's become that

8:48

pillar of the community is because it's in

8:50

reaction to Danny, who's the eldest, who

8:52

from a very early age was labeled the

8:54

troublemaker, the disturber of the piece.

8:56

They're all fearful of him. The parents

8:58

have their wills as well in that you get

9:01

clues very early on as to the sort

9:03

of parents they are. You get Robert

9:05

out there on his kayak, being solitary,

9:08

removing himself from the fray, almost

9:10

like putting himself above the family

9:12

shenanigans, which is, in

9:14

my view, slightly abdicating responsibility.

9:17

And I think the consequences of being this sort

9:19

of slightly aloof patriarch are

9:21

huge. And Sally, she's

9:23

endlessly saying it's family. And you can tell

9:26

that all this pressure is to uphold the

9:28

family

9:28

name and show cohesion,

9:31

show unity when actually there's a lot of disunity

9:34

going on. She's sort of forever planning a perfect

9:36

wedding for Meg, quite oblivious

9:39

to the fact that Meg's relationship is actually in

9:41

terrible trouble. She doesn't want to know

9:43

what is simmering under the surface. She wants

9:46

to pretend it's all fine.

9:48

And that too, in her way, she's abdicating

9:50

responsibility because her willful blindness

9:53

to see that there are problems going

9:55

on, some of which she has caused, means that

9:57

both parents So kind

9:58

of just not there for the.

9:59

kids and so the kids are all jostling for power

10:02

and for status and for responsibility

10:04

amongst themselves.

10:05

Yeah. There's a moment very early on in

10:07

the series where there's a huge debate

10:10

without Danny about whether

10:12

or not he should be allowed to come back long

10:14

term. John confronts

10:17

his father on it privately and

10:20

he does exactly what you said. It completely

10:22

abdicates. He says, you three work

10:24

it out. In other words, John, Meg and Kevin,

10:27

whatever you decide, I'll go with.

10:29

Which is just like a way of saying, I

10:32

couldn't give a shit about

10:33

this one son. I just really don't care. I don't

10:36

even wanna think about him.

10:37

Yeah, I think- Painful. It was really

10:39

painful. And I think Robert is carrying an

10:41

awful lot of stuff

10:43

of his own, which in a way sets

10:46

Danny up to fail. I mean, what

10:48

we learn about Robert is that he

10:51

had an abusive father. He

10:53

has a violent streak himself. we kind of

10:55

learned this story of how he stood up to

10:57

his dad and beat his dad up because his dad was beating up

10:59

his stepmom. So there's violence in

11:01

the lineage there. And

11:04

I think he's terrified that Danny

11:07

could

11:08

become like him or his father. Often

11:10

I think the eldest child does

11:12

carry so much weight of expectation. Robert,

11:16

I imagine, would have had so much fear

11:18

of what he saw as Danny's wildness and

11:20

he didn't want him to become like him or his dad. so

11:22

he would have really stamped that out, which

11:25

of course that's telling Danny who he is before

11:27

Danny has a chance to know who he is. And

11:29

then when Danny does go out, and

11:31

unfortunately Sarah gets drowned, sort

11:34

of on Danny's watch, Robert

11:36

then does beat him up, and

11:38

he does become his dad, all the things

11:40

that he was terrified of. So what happens

11:42

then is you scapegoat a member

11:44

of the family. You don't wanna look at the violence

11:47

in yourself. So you say, oh, Danny's the violent

11:49

one.

11:49

Yeah, he's the problem, he's the problem. Yeah,

11:51

and they're projecting that onto him. So,

11:54

okay, hold up. So I have an idea

11:57

of what projection is, but

11:59

just give us. a bit more detail. Yeah,

12:01

projection is another Freudian concept

12:03

which is endured and it describes how we

12:05

can often unconsciously attribute

12:08

our own unacceptable feelings onto

12:10

someone else. So negative emotions

12:12

that are too uncomfortable to acknowledge

12:15

in ourselves who instead identified in another

12:17

person. It's a form of protection.

12:20

It externalises what could be a painful

12:23

internal conflict or self-disgust

12:25

by removing it from yourself and

12:27

putting it into another. And then you can attack

12:29

or blame them for it

12:31

because that's easier than wrestling with it

12:33

in yourself.

12:35

In therapy actually, if we look at what

12:37

our client is complaining of in

12:39

another person, it's often quite fast-tracked

12:41

to see what they unconsciously dislike about themselves.

12:45

And I think Robert's rejection of Danny is

12:47

very much a projection of the violence he can't

12:49

bear within himself. Yeah,

12:50

and then we're constantly told

12:52

that Danny is dangerous. As

12:55

his sort of on-off girlfriend Chelsea, quite

12:57

rightly, says,

12:58

I know violent men and Danny's not one

13:01

of them. There's never any suggestion

13:03

throughout the series that Danny

13:05

has the potential to be violent. He's

13:08

definitely mischievous.

13:10

And he's got a nasty streak. He's

13:13

adept at making people feel awkward

13:15

or bad about themselves. But Danny

13:17

is also quite menacing. You can also

13:20

see that there is a sinister side. You

13:22

just don't know. He always feels like it

13:24

could go either way. There's this sort of simmering

13:27

menace. I mean, I wouldn't want to be left alone

13:29

with

13:29

him. Definitely. And when anybody is left

13:31

alone with him, they feel it. Yeah,

13:33

they feel it. And the performances are so great

13:36

because, you know, like there's often

13:38

scenes with just him and Kevin. Yeah. Where

13:40

Kevin will sort of, you know, puff out his chest.

13:43

And, you know, he's the peacock. He's like, hey, screw

13:45

you, you're ruining the family name or whatever.

13:48

And Danny will just have a turn

13:50

of phrase that just unsettles. Kevin,

13:53

he puts him on the back foot and he can't quite

13:56

fully confront his brother ever.

13:59

But

14:00

you never get the sense that, yeah, that he would

14:03

actually physically hurt anybody.

14:04

No. And in fact, when Chelsea,

14:07

the aforementioned on-off girlfriend,

14:09

on a very drunken, mistaken

14:12

night, she and Kevin end up sleeping together. Kevin

14:15

goes and sort of grovels to Danny and says, I'm

14:17

so sorry, we were both absolutely wasted

14:20

and I don't know if you're together, but I'm so

14:22

sorry. And Danny pretends to be fine with

14:24

it. But then he does actually get his friend,

14:26

who is Chelsea's brother to go and beat Kevin

14:28

up. So he's capable of getting

14:31

violence done, but he doesn't

14:32

do it. Yeah, that's very true. He's

14:34

more likely the recipient, but

14:36

again, he's carrying the weight of all these

14:38

people's projections. Oh my God, he really is.

14:41

Because they often say to him, what do you want? And

14:43

he avoids that quite a lot, but towards the end

14:45

of the series, he starts saying, I want you

14:47

to feel

14:48

what I feel. And that

14:51

almost made me cry, man, because

14:53

it just makes you think about those people within

14:56

so many different families, people

14:58

that you know who just nothing's

15:01

gone quite right for them. And

15:03

you can trace these things back just

15:05

like you can with Danny and you think well what

15:07

chance

15:08

did they have? He is literally a scapegoat.

15:11

Can you be literally a scapegoat? No he's not literally

15:13

a he's not a ghost.

15:16

Well do you know what the word scapegoat

15:18

came from I think it was some sort of a medieval

15:21

tradition where people would get an actual

15:24

goat and they would write down all the things that

15:26

they didn't want in their village like

15:29

greed and deceit and

15:31

they would tie it onto the goat's collar

15:34

and send it off into the wilderness. I know. So they

15:36

were literally banishing, taking,

15:39

letting the goat carry away all the things that

15:41

they didn't want. And that is what Danny is

15:43

to them. He's incredible. Yeah, he is the scapegoat. And

15:45

the goat's like, what the

15:46

fuck did I do? Yeah, exactly. I've just been

15:48

here chewing hay. I know, poor old Danny.

15:50

He's had so much trauma.

15:53

He lost his sister. He

15:55

feels the guilt of losing his sister,

15:57

even without them piling on their guilt.

15:59

and he was beaten and nobody

16:02

will ever acknowledge that he was beaten. He has to go

16:04

along with the family story that it was a car accident

16:07

and he's the scapegoat. I mean, he's got trauma upon

16:09

trauma.

16:10

It's easy for us to go look at this piece

16:12

of shit. Yeah.

16:13

You know? Yeah. And

16:15

then when you see, you see how he never really stood a chance because

16:18

that was what he was, it was almost like he was

16:20

born to do. He was born to take on other people's

16:22

projections and carry the stuff. What

16:24

again, what we would say, you know, people's, these are depository

16:27

of other people's disowned selves. have

16:29

to look at their part in any of it. It's not

16:31

just Robert, all of them. I mean,

16:34

Sally's always saying things like, Oh, I'm not

16:36

going to talk about the will. I'm not going to talk about

16:38

the possibility of Robert dying. I'm

16:40

not going to talk about the fact that Kevin's marriage is falling apart.

16:43

Meg's relationship is falling apart. And

16:46

there's huge implications for

16:48

that. So it's like, it's Danny's

16:51

fault becomes this sort of mantra. Like several

16:53

times in an episode, it's Danny's fault.

16:55

Danny's not really doing a huge amount. He's

16:57

barely been there. Why everybody's

16:59

had these problems. You know, when we first meet Meg,

17:02

she's cheating on her fiance. And

17:05

Kevin is absolutely

17:07

an alcoholic. I mean, there's no question, but he wakes

17:09

up and drinks. And

17:11

yet Danny's this piece

17:14

of shit. To me,

17:16

one of the most fascinating things about the series

17:19

is that he's the realist of all of it. And

17:21

as he says, when they finally all confront

17:24

each other, he says, you're all liars.

17:26

And he says to his mum, and you're the

17:29

worst. Yeah.

17:29

There's more secrets to uncover with Sally

17:31

because when you kind of unravel it,

17:34

the whole reason that Danny took Sarah

17:36

out on the boat in the first place was because Sally

17:38

was on the point of leaving the family. She was packing

17:40

a suitcase. She and Robert were arguing.

17:43

And it was to kind of spare

17:45

Sarah having to hear all this that she said

17:48

to Danny, take her away. So she's

17:50

again pushed the responsibility onto

17:52

a child and then blames the child for

17:54

not being up to the job.

17:56

There's only a couple of people really looking

17:58

out from Chelsea. of Indian character

18:00

definitely. His best friend Eric, who's

18:03

a mess as well, but they are great

18:05

friends. And there's

18:08

Lenny Potts, who's this mysterious

18:10

sort of old family friend, was a detective

18:12

in his younger days, now retired,

18:15

was good friends with the dad Robert. And

18:18

he also harbours this regret,

18:20

particularly around Danny's so-called

18:23

accident, which we know wasn't

18:25

an accident. And we actually hear a bit

18:28

of that. Here, check this out.

18:29

Talking to you three became

18:32

clear because you had all told

18:34

the same story Which

18:36

means that you had been fed the same lie

18:39

and I never asked who fed you that lie My

18:42

dad never talked to you about any of us. I Confronted

18:45

him. He kept denying it You

18:49

were kids and you scared

18:51

you're trying to protect your dad The

18:54

problem was nobody was protecting

18:57

your brother.

18:57

Somebody

19:00

needed to stand up for

19:02

him, to tell the truth.

19:08

I failed him.

19:10

And as we go forward, we find that

19:13

those kids weren't just trying to protect

19:15

the family. They were coached. And

19:18

they were coached by someone. someone.

19:20

Initially you probably think it's the dad

19:22

protecting his own neck, but actually

19:25

we find out

19:26

that it's their mum, Sally, this sweet

19:29

person who never really wants to look back.

19:31

With John in the conversation with the detective,

19:34

at one point the detective is saying, yes, I failed

19:36

you and all the adults did fail them. And John

19:39

apologises and he said, I'm sorry,

19:41

I lied about the beating. And

19:43

he was a child, he was made to lie

19:46

by Sally, but still as As an adult,

19:48

very intelligent detective, there's

19:50

still a part of him that believes I have to apologize

19:53

for doing the wrong thing. The little

19:56

boy in him can't compute. Oh

19:58

no, I should never have been put in that position.

19:59

I should never have had my mother say, lie

20:03

to protect your father. And by

20:05

doing so, we're basically, we're throwing Danny under

20:07

the bus.

20:07

Absolutely. All right, well, coming

20:10

up, we're gonna explore more trouble

20:12

in paradise because yeah, it

20:14

does go off. We're gonna look at sympathetic

20:16

ghosts and fratricide because

20:18

it's not just Sarah that's killed. Spoiler

20:22

alert, all that after the break, unless

20:24

of course you're a subscriber, in which case

20:26

we'll be back faster than you can say, Golden Seahorse

20:28

necklace.

20:41

Shrink the Box is brought to you in part

20:43

by BetterHelp. It's Ben

20:46

here. I've experienced first hand the beauty and

20:48

the challenges inherent in committing to

20:50

therapy, especially with with my current therapist

20:52

who I found

20:54

through, you guessed it, betterhelp.com.

20:59

Now trust me getting to know yourself, it can be

21:01

a lifelong process, especially because

21:03

we're always growing and changing, and

21:05

if I shrink the box characters or anything to go by, there

21:08

really is always more work

21:10

to do. So whether you need to understand

21:13

yourself better or you

21:15

want to change something in your life that you

21:17

think is not really working out, Better Help is

21:19

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21:22

You're gonna get connected with a licensed therapist.

21:24

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21:26

need to do to discover your potential

21:29

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21:29

to visit betterhelp.com

21:31

slash shrink the box today to get 10%

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off your first month. Why didn't I do that?

21:36

Now I feel like a sucker. Oh well, that's Better Help.

21:39

H-E-L-P.com slash

21:41

shrink the box. Hey, Jeff Probst

21:44

here, host and executive producer of Survivor.

21:47

To celebrate the 44th season

21:49

of our show, we launched an official Survivor

21:51

podcast called On Fire with

21:53

me,

21:53

Jeff Proops. It's not going to be your

21:56

typical recap podcast. We're gonna take

21:58

you behind the scenes and give you

22:00

an inside look at the show. All those

22:02

burning questions about why we did what

22:04

we did finally gonna be answered. Listen

22:07

to On Fire with Jeff Probst, the official

22:09

Survivor podcast coming soon wherever

22:12

you get your podcasts.

22:17

And we are back.

22:20

You

22:22

know, we were just discussing in the break,

22:25

the writers of the show obviously worked

22:28

on the seminal

22:29

Sopranos for HBO. But

22:32

one thing I did think was interesting was

22:34

two of them are brothers.

22:36

Oh yeah, yeah. The Kestlers.

22:38

That's true. And some of

22:40

the drama that gets you out of your seat in this show

22:43

is real Cain and Abel stuff. And

22:45

I'm fascinated by the conversations they

22:47

must have had. I'm certain

22:50

that

22:50

they brought in that real sibling

22:53

dynamic. Like what is it that

22:56

makes us tick? There must have been some difficult conversations.

22:59

Or would

22:59

love to have been a flail in that writer's room. Yeah.

23:03

An amazing job they've done. But also brave of them

23:05

because clearly they would have had to confront what was going

23:07

on between them in order to write it. Because

23:10

it feels so real. It feels really real.

23:12

They've probably had some family therapy

23:14

going on there somewhere. Or maybe

23:16

the writing of this was the therapy.

23:18

Could well be. So there's

23:20

this point in Bloodline

23:23

where, to quote one of my favorite

23:26

movies, shit gets

23:28

real. Danny goes full

23:31

on Danny. What do you think is the turning

23:33

point for him and why? Dad tells

23:35

him to go. His own father tries to give

23:38

him a check to say, just get out of town. The

23:43

dad then dies. The other

23:45

thing that happens is that he discovers

23:48

just how much his siblings

23:50

colluded in this tale of him

23:52

being hit

23:53

by a car. When he

23:55

listens to these police tapes, The betrayal

23:57

of each sibling just says...

23:59

saying, we don't care that this guy was beaten

24:02

up into service or sympathy, we're just going to say

24:04

the dad had nothing to do with it. So he

24:06

goes to a bar, he gets loads

24:09

of drugs, he goads

24:11

this sort of brick shit house of a man in a

24:13

bar. He goads him into beating him up because

24:16

his self-worth is so low. His

24:18

own dad doesn't want him. His own siblings

24:20

have betrayed him. He wants to be beaten up

24:22

because he feels that's all he's worth. He's what

24:24

we would say, he has introjected the projections.

24:27

He has absolutely taken on board all this stuff

24:29

that

24:29

has been thrown at him. It's awful. Yeah,

24:32

it's terrible, man. And like, see, just seeing

24:34

him driving and listening to this cassette, you

24:36

know, to the point where in the

24:38

penultimate episode,

24:40

he actually knows it like a song. So,

24:42

you know, obviously this is an extreme version

24:44

of a scenario, but

24:47

these dynamics, how do we see

24:49

them played out in real life, like on a

24:51

lower level? No one's really to blame,

24:53

but they're problematic roles,

24:55

you know.

24:56

I think that's why this series is so relatable

24:59

because we all have a version of that, whether it's

25:01

whenever we go back at Christmas and it's like, why am

25:03

I always the one who dot, dot,

25:05

dot? That's what

25:06

the infill's like, right? It feels

25:08

like one big, like, marriage

25:10

Christmas holiday at your parents'

25:12

house. We all kind of regress.

25:14

We all sort of become 12 years old. Danny's

25:17

replaying and replaying of the tapes. It's a

25:19

very concrete example of how we all go

25:21

over and over these old wounds. We

25:23

let all this stuff fester and go on

25:26

and on and on until we can't disidentify

25:28

the version of ourselves from

25:31

our actual selves.

25:32

Yeah. I personally

25:34

supported Danny wholeheartedly, regardless

25:37

of the menace throughout the first six or seven

25:39

episodes, but at this point where he turns, it

25:41

gets harder and harder to defend him. The

25:44

way he threatens his sister,

25:46

because he knows that she's been having

25:49

an affair. Oh man, when he takes

25:51

Janie, his brother's daughter, his

25:54

niece out on the boat,

25:55

have got a surprise for you and he gives

25:58

her the

25:58

necklace. that his little

26:01

sister Sarah had chased

26:03

into the water, which was what caused her to

26:05

drown. She got her hand stuck in

26:07

a coral, trying to reach for the necklace.

26:10

He recovered the necklace eventually and

26:13

gives it

26:14

to the daughter. And when they're

26:16

in the water together, dunking each other's heads,

26:18

I'm just like, oh my God, my skin is quite, I

26:21

know he's not gonna kill her, but it just feels

26:23

like he might. And of course, you know, he gets

26:25

his friend, Eric, as we mentioned, to beat

26:28

up his brother Kevin. And then of course,

26:31

the cocaine is just sort of protecting

26:33

it for these very dangerous men. And

26:36

he

26:37

decides to keep it in a shed on

26:39

the family property. He does

26:42

not need to do that. We know that. He's

26:44

got a flat in Miami. He's got

26:46

like his friend Eric, I'm sure they'd find a

26:48

lock up somewhere or something like that. He

26:51

puts it there for a reason.

26:52

Yeah, that's almost like the second way in which

26:54

he copes with this massive projection. So like

26:56

I said, a projection is when someone takes

26:59

something bad from them and projects

27:01

it into another. We saw that one

27:03

version of responding to that is to interject

27:06

it and say, yeah, I am a worthless piece of shit. Beat

27:08

me up because that's what I deserve. Then another

27:10

version is to try and eject them back out

27:13

by acting out by saying, right,

27:15

okay, I'm going to make you all as scared as I

27:18

am. I'm going to bring drugs onto the property. I'm going

27:20

to take the family name and drag it through the

27:22

mud. I'm going to make you feel what it

27:24

is to feel bad. And that's, I think,

27:27

so key with what eventually plays

27:29

out with each sibling. He wants Kevin

27:31

to feel bad physically by having him beaten up.

27:34

He wants Meg to feel the pain of a broken

27:36

relationship by threatening to tell her

27:38

fiance about her affair. And

27:40

he wants John to feel the worst of all. I mean,

27:42

first he gets him drunk, tries to fix him up with

27:44

a woman in a bar. Then he's quite menacing

27:47

to his wife late at night in their home. And

27:49

then he really terrifies him by taking

27:51

his daughter out

27:52

on a boat. I mean, he's goading,

27:55

John, into greater and greater fear

27:57

and anger. So Danny's really

27:59

he's really pushing people

28:01

now and he's really turning

28:03

the screw and he's, you

28:06

know, he's giving a lot of people a lot

28:08

of motive to just get

28:11

rid of him permanently, essentially.

28:14

We mentioned this as sympathetic ghost

28:16

before the break. I want to hear

28:18

a bit about that. What do those two words mean together?

28:21

Sarah, the dead sister, is constantly

28:24

there with them all the time.

28:26

She sort of haunts the whole family, the family have become

28:29

the way they have, because no

28:31

one can forget what happened. And

28:33

Danny kind of sees her very

28:35

literally. I mean, he is haunted by having killed

28:38

her. I mean, he didn't do it on purpose, but he's

28:40

told you killed her. He was there

28:42

when she died. It wasn't his fault. And

28:45

so he sort of personified that constant

28:47

presence of the guilt into actually seeing

28:49

her. And he talks to her

28:51

and he's made her

28:53

into the perfect sister who

28:55

is the only one that understands him. She knows

28:58

he didn't do it on purpose. She has

29:00

sympathy. She sees what they've done

29:02

to him. And she listens

29:05

and he's able to talk to her and

29:07

she's able to say it wasn't your fault in the

29:09

way that nobody else does.

29:10

You know what was so upsetting

29:14

is when John thinks

29:16

he's got rid of Danny for good and he's

29:18

on the bus back to Miami and

29:20

there's no one else on the bus. And he's

29:23

talking apparently to himself at first

29:25

but then you hear a female voice talking back

29:28

and you realise that it's Sarah. Are

29:30

you glad you came home? All

29:34

I wanted to do was give

29:38

him my toast. Things

29:43

took a turn. Where

29:47

are we going? Back

29:50

to Miami but who knows.

29:53

This is not safe for me here.

29:59

Maybe you just should... It's a

30:17

fully

30:28

grown adult woman. And

30:31

I just thought, oh fuck, that's

30:33

like twice as upsetting

30:35

because it says to you, he's

30:38

been living with this ever since,

30:40

like this ghost has grown

30:43

up with him.

30:44

Yeah, he's been carrying her. Yeah.

30:47

I just found that moment so sad.

30:50

Yeah, he's never allowed

30:52

to forget. It is really sad

30:54

and he was never allowed to grieve her. I

30:56

don't think any of them properly grieved her because

30:59

they avoided the pain of having lost her

31:01

by making it all about Danny and making

31:03

it all about blame and beatings

31:06

and oh, let's make ourselves look like the

31:08

perfect family and we won't have to face

31:10

up to this sad, sad loss. But yeah,

31:12

he's clearly never forgotten

31:14

her and she's been with him and he sees her as supportive.

31:16

So right, when your only counsel

31:19

is a ghost, things

31:21

are obviously pretty bad. We've talked about fratricide,

31:25

which

31:25

happens again, of course. For

31:28

those that aren't familiar with the term, just

31:30

break it down. Fratricide is killing

31:32

a sibling. Danny is nearby

31:35

when she drowns, and you could

31:37

argue, as they do, that it's his fault

31:39

because he should never have taken her out on the boat, or you could

31:41

say, well, it wasn't his fault. He should

31:43

never have been in a position to be told to take

31:46

her away and entertain her anyway.

31:48

Yeah, he actually is

31:50

trying to do all the right things. witnessing

31:53

a very painful moment, he recognises

31:56

that and takes her away and there's

31:58

actually as you get deeper in the future.

34:00

It feels like to have

34:02

to beg, to have to go

34:04

through your whole life, apologizing

34:06

for everything. I want you to know, you want

34:08

me to leave? Beg

34:11

me.

34:14

Get down on your knees, and

34:17

you beg me to

34:19

go.

34:24

Beg me. Why

34:29

is this going to end? It

34:34

doesn't end for me, John. Why should it end for

34:36

you? Yeah.

34:39

Chilling. Fairness. It's

34:41

just about justice, isn't it? So how do we

34:43

go about IRL, like

34:46

breaking these patterns, like ripping

34:48

up these scripts for ourselves?

34:49

You can look back and you can think, yeah,

34:51

I was constantly being pushed to do a certain but

34:54

actually I don't have to do that anymore. And with enough

34:56

therapy, you can realize I do

34:58

have the choice. I don't have to just act

35:00

in the way that I've always felt pushed to

35:03

act or in a way that I identify

35:05

with being. So self-awareness

35:07

is a lot of it. I think being able to forgive

35:10

yourself for the things that you have done wrong,

35:12

acknowledging, yeah, I wasn't responsible

35:14

for that, but I really was responsible for that. Being

35:16

able to see

35:18

what other people have brought to it, which again, I

35:20

really hate this notion of let's blame the parents. They're

35:22

not to blame any more than Danny is to blame

35:24

because they can only parent in the way they've been

35:26

parented unless they actively choose

35:29

again to learn more and to try

35:31

and do it differently. But they were doing

35:33

their best. No parent sets out

35:35

intentionally to screw up their kids.

35:37

Sally thought she was doing a really good thing by always looking on

35:39

the bright side and was like, oh, no, we don't want to talk about horrible

35:41

things like people dying. It's nobody's

35:44

fault. It's it's not their parents fault for making

35:46

them have those behaviors because their

35:48

parents

35:48

probably weren't parented. So, you know, how far

35:50

back do you want to go? Everyone,

35:53

it's like Philip Larkin says, you know,

35:55

they fuck you up, your mum and dad, that they were fucked up

35:57

in their turn. so unless

35:59

You can stop, you can really acknowledge,

36:02

you can look at everybody with their own flaws

36:04

and weaknesses and say, I did

36:06

that and that doesn't excuse it, but it does explain

36:09

it and I don't have to keep

36:11

going down that route. So it's not excusing

36:13

anyone's behavior, but it is explaining it and

36:16

understanding it and having compassion

36:18

for why they might have felt compelled to be

36:20

that way.

36:21

That's so important, that distinction that you

36:23

just made. And I think it's so hard

36:25

to see through the fog of your emotion

36:28

to make that distinction. in the moment.

36:31

I wonder if sometimes we underestimate

36:33

some of the, you know, antagonistic

36:36

forces that can come in and out of our lives. Just

36:38

people who've just come in and gone, here's

36:40

a vulnerable person. I'm going to fuck with this person

36:42

for a bit. You know? And we tend to

36:45

maybe not give that as much credence

36:47

as like, well, it's, you know, my mom, you know,

36:50

she did this when I was five.

36:51

You learn your early patterns of relating from

36:53

your parents. So it's why we always go back to the beginning

36:56

because we get another bit of theory, internal

36:58

working models. We're shown a way of being

37:01

like, oh, we don't talk about that, or we

37:03

don't show that sort of emotion. And you internalize

37:05

that so that you think that you're never

37:07

allowed to do that. So those patterns are set

37:10

down very early, but then other people that come

37:12

into your life, they will either kind of help you

37:14

see there's another way or they will entrench

37:17

you further into those internal ways,

37:19

those internal working models.

37:21

So sometimes it's almost

37:23

subconscious pushing us towards

37:26

people who are bad for us. Yeah,

37:27

yeah. Well, that can happen because there's

37:29

a familiarity. You recognize

37:32

how that relationship is going to play out and you think, well,

37:34

yeah, that's how relationships play out. So of

37:37

course, why would I expect any differently?

37:39

We have to dig into that again

37:41

another time. I'm sure there's going to be another show that inspires

37:44

us to get deeper into that. It

37:46

comes up for so many people, so I'm

37:48

sure some of our future clients that

37:50

will be very relevant to

37:52

talk about with them.

37:53

I look forward to it as does a lot

37:56

of our listenership which is just so

37:59

good to hear.

37:59

including Florian here who says,

38:02

hey, shrink team, we've got a team name now.

38:05

Shrink team, I'm taking it. Great, I like it. You

38:07

were asking for suggestions and I'd love to hear more

38:09

about some queer patients and maybe from

38:12

lighter but equally great shows. And you

38:14

know, this has been something that's in the back of my mind, we've discussed.

38:16

So Florian, thanks for the nudge.

38:19

We're definitely on it. David from Schitt's

38:21

Creek, yes. Oh yes. Oh my God, I

38:23

love that character. Me too. Florian, that's

38:25

a great shout. Charlie from Heartstopper, Gentleman

38:27

Jack is a good show, gentlemen. Stop,

38:30

I'm not seeing but yeah, gentlemen, Jack,

38:31

Schitt's Creek both great shouts looking

38:33

forward to next time Florian. Thank you and Catherine

38:36

Thanks for getting in touch. She says love

38:39

the podcast so far can believe you didn't episode

38:41

on Walter white They didn't even mention Saul Goodman.

38:43

Okay Jimmy. I mean that's very true

38:46

Catherine But maybe we were keeping our powder

38:48

dry. Yeah, the thing about that We

38:51

both are she says if you've watched it surely

38:54

you've screamed at the screen

38:55

why would Kim go along with all the crazy

38:58

Jimmy plans? Absolutely. I think

39:00

that's a fascinating relationship to dig into.

39:02

Any of the sole characters would be great. I

39:05

love all of them. She says, please

39:07

tell me you have it in mind. We do, Catherine. She

39:09

also says I'm a psychotherapist myself. Another

39:11

pro listening. I love

39:14

that. Yeah, well, we're so glad you guys

39:16

are enjoying it. Keep sending your character suggestions

39:18

in. We're just compiling and in

39:21

the shrink team studio, We've got

39:23

like a wall full of those like creepy photos

39:26

and post-it notes with like string

39:29

on pushing pins

39:32

webbed across the wall because

39:34

we're not as good at

39:36

writing drama as the people we're analyzing.

39:38

But yeah, we've got a whole host of characters

39:40

that we wanna do and we cannot wait to get into.

39:43

Keep sending your suggestions to add to the shrink

39:45

team wall, shrink the box at

39:48

somethingelse.com. and shrink the box

39:50

at something without the G else

39:52

dot com. And remember, if you want us to make

39:54

more, shrink the boxes, the only way

39:56

it's going to happen is for you to tell your

39:59

you know, have you listened to that podcast? Listen to that podcast

40:02

with that amazing psychotherapist

40:04

and that other guy, what's his name? Reggie

40:06

Yates, you know that guy, he's on everything.

40:09

Yeah, you got to tell your friends, like get that word of mouth

40:11

going, send a link to the show, you know,

40:13

stick it in your next WhatsApp conversation

40:16

and then tell them to follow us wherever they get their

40:18

podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Stitch, Amazon,

40:20

you know the drill. And they'll get the new episodes

40:23

and then can go back because the beautiful thing about

40:25

it is it's not topical. You just go back, the

40:27

way it's encouraged me to go back to

40:29

watch

40:29

these series is a great thing. And for

40:32

your friends, if they're getting into it months

40:34

down the line, they can go back to episode one

40:36

and it will feel like it's today. And

40:38

if you wanna listen to it without the ads, that's

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40:51

And plus you get more

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41:01

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41:03

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41:05

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41:08

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41:10

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41:13

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41:15

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41:18

or just go to the website at extra takes.com.

41:21

Thank you so much as ever to

41:24

our superb production team. Production

41:26

management is Lily Hambley, the

41:28

assistant producer. It's Bashak Erton,

41:30

social media

41:31

is Jonathan Emieri. Studio engineer

41:34

is Josh Gibbs. And the mix engineer

41:36

is Jay Beal. Senior producer is Selena

41:38

Reem. And the exec producer is Simon

41:41

Paul. Thanks as ever. Guys,

41:44

Sasha, I'm excited as I always

41:46

am at the end for the little tease for

41:48

next week. Who's going to be our client?

41:50

Your client, I should say, next week.

41:52

Well, we've listened to what people

41:54

have been suggesting. And this is for them. Have

41:57

a listen.

42:01

There's been an assassination in Vienna. Cool. Sorry.

42:05

She's highly skilled, as yet untraceable,

42:08

and frankly, she's starting to show off.

42:11

A woman in London is leaving

42:13

a department just to find you. I

42:16

want you to watch her. Promise

42:21

you won't be naughty. I

42:22

promise I won't be naughty. I'm

42:24

not.

42:27

Oh my God, somebody help me!

42:31

Why are you doing this to me? I have absolutely

42:33

no idea. She

42:36

will keep hurting people until I catch

42:38

her. I have to find her.

42:41

She wants me to find her.

42:42

I haven't been feeling any stress recently.

42:47

Let me out! I had quite

42:49

a heavy period last week, But other than that,

42:51

I think I'm okay. I know

42:53

you're a psychopath. You

42:57

should never tell a psychopath you're a psychopath.

43:02

It upsets them.

43:02

Okay. Do

43:06

not assassinate me guys, but I have not

43:08

seen this yet. Like you say, this is one for the fans,

43:10

Sash. I think this is

43:13

killing Eve, correct?

43:14

It is killing Eve and we'll be looking at

43:16

Eve Polastri herself written

43:18

by the amazing Phoebe Wallerbridge

43:21

from Fleabag. So it is chock

43:23

full, as we heard, of dark humor.

43:26

And it is gripping. I have watched

43:28

it and I loved it. And

43:30

Eve, played by Sandra Oh, is just a

43:32

fabulous character. Season

43:34

one, which is what we're covering, is on BBC

43:37

iPlayer. How

43:37

much do I need to get in before next week? Well,

43:40

it's quite good actually, because

43:42

there's eight lots of 40 minutes.

43:44

So it goes by very quickly. You could even

43:46

watch it in two sittings if you wanted.

43:48

Yeah, so lovely Eve.

43:50

So I need a palette cleanser because

43:52

I literally just finished Bloodline

43:54

for the second time before coming into

43:56

record. So it's something

43:59

in, but it's a bit.

43:59

like two intense courses. Yeah,

44:02

that's true. Actually, maybe get back to Schitt's creeks

44:04

as Florian just suggested. Yeah, watch

44:07

a couple of Schitt's creeks and then I'll just refresh

44:09

and kick off with killing Eve. So

44:12

what kind of things do you think we'll be looking

44:14

at next week?

44:15

When I rewatched it just recently,

44:17

I was reminded of the famous phrase about the

44:19

three of us in this marriage. And I think for

44:22

Eve, there's three in her marriage now, and

44:24

one of them is a psychopath. So it's really

44:26

interesting how Villanelle infiltrates

44:29

Eve's real life as well as her working

44:31

life. So it's about obsession,

44:33

it's about the erotic charge of the

44:36

forbidden, that very fine line

44:38

between fear and excitement, between

44:40

terror and thrill. And

44:42

sort of what happens when you're yearning

44:44

for two very contradictory things, you

44:46

want comfortable safety at

44:49

home with your husband, which is a little bit boring, but

44:51

you also want the thrill of the new

44:53

and that could be very dangerous. So hard

44:55

to square those two opposites.

44:57

Sounds like just another day at the office

45:00

for us. Yeah. I look forward to it. Yeah.

45:02

I will see you then. See you then. Take care.

45:09

Credits of Bloodline, as promised.

45:12

It was created and written by Todd

45:14

A. Kessler, Glenn Kessler, and

45:16

Daniel Zellman. Arthur Phillips

45:18

is also a writer and Jonathan Glatzer

45:21

is executive story editor.

45:23

The clip at the top is from season

45:25

one recap of Bloodline from Netflix

45:28

and you can hear their Kyle

45:30

Chandler who

45:31

plays John Norbert Leo Butz who

45:33

plays Kevin and Ben Mendelsohn as Danny

45:36

and when Frank Hoyt Taylor playing Lenny

45:39

Potts speaks to John

45:41

that's from part six directed by

45:43

Alex Graves. So the clip where John

45:46

says Sarah should be with an adult

45:48

and the scene with Danny and the

45:50

ghost of Sarah talking to each other, and

45:52

the confrontation

45:53

between John and Danny at the end, They're all

45:56

from part 12 which was directed

45:58

by Carl Franklin.

45:59

Bloodline is made by KSK Productions

46:02

and is in association with Sony

46:04

Pictures Television. Thanks for listening guys,

46:07

and see you next week.