0:11

Hello, and welcome to this episode of

0:13

the Shutup and Sit Down podcast.

0:15

Today, we're gonna be talking about just

0:17

one big game, and it's gonna be Mahjong, and

0:20

who's gonna tell us about it? It's gonna be

0:22

Quintin Smith. Hi, Tom, Bruce. How

0:24

are you doing? I'm doing good. I'm

0:27

doing great. We're recording the

0:29

podcast and I'm oh

0:31

my gosh.

0:34

You know what? Let's keep this because it's hilarious.

0:37

So actually, this is a

0:39

theme of failure might run throughout this

0:41

this podcast because

0:44

what Tom is not telling you there in his nice

0:46

intro that's picking me up is that

0:48

this is a podcast we are doing

0:50

in lieu of

0:52

my big Mahjong video review.

0:54

Right? Yeah. So Tom, I

0:55

don't mind peeling back the Vinyl and telling the

0:57

good people at home. They've been good to me over the

0:59

years listening to the podcast and watching videos,

1:02

they deserve a bit of truth. The truth is

1:04

I this video. I just I

1:07

so if you've been watching the channel recently,

1:09

you might have seen we've done some quite

1:12

popular videos on games like

1:14

Go. My Go Video

1:16

Review, got a cool half

1:18

a million views. That's

1:19

wow. Half a million.

1:21

That's so many. And I've also been, you know,

1:23

quite interested in some classic card games. You

1:25

can see that on the series we've done on shutdown

1:28

card games that don't suck. And we also took

1:30

a look at classic dexterity games like Crokinell,

1:32

which also did really good traffic for us. So I

1:34

thought I know a classic game

1:36

that we've never looked at. It's Mahjong

1:39

popular in all sorts of Asian countries and

1:41

America. It's the classic

1:44

clacky tile gambling game

1:47

that originated in China about two hundred

1:49

years

1:49

ago. That's

1:49

what it says on the box. A classic, plucky

1:52

tire laying gambling game. The

1:54

the it does not say in the box what

1:56

year it came out because, interestingly, nobody

1:59

knows. Yeah. It's

2:01

maybe about two hundred years old, but there are no

2:03

historic records because Chinese rulers

2:05

in the nineteenth century considered it indecent

2:08

and corrupting. And told

2:10

basically all historians to keep it out of historical

2:12

records prevent the game from spreading. Wow.

2:15

And topically, actually, Tom, you don't know this.

2:18

But in two thousand nineteen, the current

2:20

Chinese communist party did the same. They

2:22

put a ban on video games that among, like,

2:24

other things like video games that can show poker and

2:26

they can't show blood. They said China will

2:28

not, you know, allow the sale of video games that

2:30

depict So this is still going

2:32

on. And let me tell you, there is no faster

2:34

way to get my interest and attention

2:37

than by saying a game is indecent and corrupting.

2:41

So I was amped. I I've realized

2:43

that I I we haven't even done a

2:45

sting. I've I've spilled this intro

2:47

over, and now it just we're into the podcast

2:49

proper. Yeah. I know. I mean, normally, what I

2:51

do is I'd jokingly be like, well, let's put a stick

2:53

in here. Then I put a stick in, and then I just come

2:55

back to us talking normally, but maybe we just go

2:57

stingless, you know. It's just world

3:00

free.

3:01

I, you know, love that. I don't love that man.

3:03

There's something about sting that makes

3:05

me it's like a chapter heading or

3:07

something. It makes me feel like I've I've got a

3:09

clean sheet of paper. Can I have a sting? Yeah.

3:11

Okay. So

3:14

Quinn's, we can't talk about history forever.

3:16

We can't just be rambling about the history of Mahjong

3:18

and what was going on back in the day. We want to talk

3:20

about the hero now. We want to talk about game that

3:22

we played together. How

3:24

do you play Mahjong? What is

3:26

it? And why should people give it a try? Oh,

3:28

great. That that's really certainly on the

3:30

right track. Well done, Tom. So actually,

3:33

I'll first do exactly what you say and explain

3:35

roughly what Mahjong is and how it's played. Then

3:37

I would like to tell our

3:39

audience why I had

3:41

to abort the video reviewers going to

3:43

Yes. Because I think that's kind of an interesting discussion

3:45

as

3:45

well. Sure. Alright. Maisons, what is

3:47

it? Well, you've probably seen it before.

3:50

It is a game which is usually played with four

3:52

people sat around a table. And the table

3:54

is covered in little clacky

3:56

kind of rectangular tiles that are quite thick.

3:59

And you might have seen the the the sort of image

4:01

that exists in the cultural consciousness of people

4:04

smearing these tiles around the table. So

4:06

all four players for a total of eight hands

4:08

just like rocking these tiles back

4:10

and forth in order to shuffle them in in a big pile

4:12

shuffle. That's Mhmm. And it makes a wonderful noise.

4:15

And actually, I know I'm not allowed to talk about history, but

4:17

this might be where Marjorie gets his name. Because

4:19

Maisons roughly translates as sparrow in

4:22

Mandarin and it's supposed

4:24

that like the sound of people shuffling Maisons

4:26

tiles is the sound of a

4:28

flock of sparrows eating

4:30

grain. Yeah.

4:32

Yeah. I mean, sure. It sounds like

4:35

birds. I mean, that

4:37

that is also a fact that might not even be true.

4:39

History fun. That's just

4:41

apocalypses. So anyway, you've got So you've

4:43

got a game of a hundred and thirty

4:45

six tiles, which is thirty four different

4:48

tiles that each appear in duplicates of four for a

4:50

total of a hundred thirty six. And the game

4:52

you're gonna be playing with them is a

4:54

melding game, kinda like

4:56

a game like gin rummy, if you've played that.

4:59

And not too dissimilar actually to Ramikub,

5:02

which Tom you did a video review of on the

5:04

on the channel just

5:05

recently. I did indeed. And I declared

5:07

it in that video better than Mahjong.

5:10

Did you I didn't. I didn't. didn't.

5:13

But I'm declaring

5:14

it now. Well, do so

5:16

do you still think Romicub is better than usual?

5:18

I had more fun playing Romicub.

5:20

Okay. Well, alright. That's a that's a that's

5:22

a diplomatic answer.

5:23

That's a that's a that's a conversation for

5:25

later. Yeah, it is. Okay. So

5:28

you've got all these tiles and then the way it's gonna

5:30

work is that everyone draws a hand of thirteen

5:32

tiles of which you win

5:34

the game, you won't by declaring Marc, you get to declare

5:36

Marcine. If you turn this hand of tiles you've

5:38

got into four sets in a pair, So

5:41

it's kinda simple at

5:43

the very, very basic level. On your turn,

5:45

all you're gonna do is reach into the big, you know,

5:48

tile or walls of face down tiles in the middle of the

5:50

table to draw yourself a new tile. So your hand

5:52

of thirteen tiles has gone up to fourteen, which

5:55

is enough tiles to make four sets in a

5:57

pair because the sets are three tiles each. But then

5:59

after drawing, you have to discard a tile. So

6:01

only on your turn when you've drawn a tile and you've briefly

6:03

gone up to fourteen, only in that window can

6:05

you win and then you go back down to thirteen. And then

6:07

a lot of the strategy in margin comes from the

6:09

fact that at the instant that you discard

6:11

a tile, that tile you go, don't

6:13

want this one. I can't use it. I don't think. Or I don't want

6:16

it or I don't like the odds of being able to use it.

6:18

Another player around the table can go, oh, I'll have

6:20

that actually. Thank you. And hijack

6:23

sort of your turn. And this is one of

6:25

my favorite things about is that theoretically, it's

6:27

a game where you go clockwise or anti clockwise,

6:29

I forget. Around the table with people taking their turn.

6:32

But it ends up feeling more

6:34

like a DJ scratching a record and going

6:36

like, oh, back to back to Tom, you know, because

6:38

if I take my turn, and it would then

6:41

go to the player to the right of me and instead the player

6:43

opposite me grabs the tile, the player to the

6:45

right of me has skipped and, you know, the records sort

6:47

of like skips a little bit. Which

6:49

is quite fun. It's just always funny to

6:51

have a player who's about to take their turn, in fact, not

6:53

to get a turn, which is

6:56

weird to me because usually, shut off and sit down

6:58

like one of the the hall of fame awful mechanics

7:00

that everybody hates is skip a

7:02

turn. Mhmm. But in it's actually

7:04

quite fun. Go figure. I don't know. It's

7:06

fun. Well, it's fun for everyone else. I

7:08

think it's hilarious. I mean, I even I don't know.

7:10

This

7:11

you love that happening to you. Well,

7:13

I didn't love it, but III

7:16

did enjoy granting an annoyance

7:18

and hearing everyone else laugh at my wristwatch. That

7:20

was was good. So,

7:24

oh, god. You know that we could even stop there

7:26

and say those are the basics of Maisons. It's game where

7:28

you draw a tile and then you're You're

7:30

trying to make sets, which are either runs of

7:32

like 345 or three of a kind or even

7:34

four of a kind, which has its own rules. And

7:36

then you're trying to also think about what you

7:38

discard. Because there are tiles

7:41

in the game that are so good that you

7:43

kind of want to discard them early because

7:45

the rule is that other players can only pick up tiles

7:47

if they can use them to complete a set. Mhmm.

7:50

So you have this window in Mahjong where

7:52

if you've got a tile that you don't want, but someone

7:54

else around the table probably will

7:56

eventually, you gotta get rid of that stuff

7:58

early because if you get rid of it late, someone will definitely

8:00

snuffle it up. I I really love that

8:02

there's this like because you know, like,

8:04

if you've got two of a set and you know that

8:06

the other two of a set is, like, out there

8:09

somewhere. There's this, like, fantastic,

8:11

like, double sunk cost fallacy at

8:13

play where that you don't wanna bin something that

8:16

you've held on that's like half of a set for ages.

8:18

Like, you you know, you've held onto it from turn one,

8:20

so you don't wanna bin it. But then you know that the

8:22

probably If it hasn't shown up in all the shuffling

8:24

through the piles so

8:25

far, someone else might have the other half

8:27

of the set. So

8:28

you're stuck with these piles being like,

8:31

And it's just that that decision or

8:33

lack of decision or tension is always

8:35

very interesting in

8:36

Mahjong. Yeah, it is. And I think at the

8:38

end of our third game night, we were really

8:40

starting to connect with the game on the

8:42

pretty strategic level that it but

8:45

also subtle level that it demands where

8:48

you would have don't know. You end up almost

8:51

in conversation with other players where or

8:53

with the table in general where, like, if

8:55

the whole table is discarding, you know, bamboo,

8:57

which is one of the suits in the game. You get

8:59

this

9:01

sort of shared idea that bamboo

9:03

was worthless in this round and that means

9:05

that bamboo becomes better for somebody

9:07

who is choosing to keep it because everyone's throwing it away.

9:09

It feels like a totally silent conversation

9:12

about probability and what people are hoarding.

9:16

And but subtle is

9:18

really the word there. It took

9:20

it took a couple of evenings of Mahjong

9:23

for me and my friends to start feeling that

9:25

we were even nibbling around the edges of the strategy,

9:28

which makes it a peculiar game because

9:30

on the one hand, it is very

9:32

luck based. Like, I think I think you

9:34

really Tom, you felt that keenly

9:36

the first time you played it with

9:37

me. Am I right? Yeah. The first time we

9:40

played it, and I think even maybe

9:42

I don't know, like, for the whole evening, I

9:45

I didn't manage to get and Mahjong.

9:48

And it always but it always

9:50

felt like the reason that I

9:52

I had is I just drew, like, one of the most awful

9:55

possible hands or I didn't have any, like,

9:57

starter, like, starter sets,

9:59

if you will. Like, I think there's a

10:01

real, like, you can only take a

10:03

tile. I might maybe mister Emery in this rule. Right? But

10:06

you can only take a tile if it would complete a set

10:08

for

10:08

you. Right? That's

10:08

correct. Yeah. You can't just pinch one, you know,

10:10

because it would be useful to you. It has

10:13

to finish a set. So you have to have two to

10:15

have then be able to take the third. And I would

10:17

never have two. I would always

10:19

be sat there with my, like, ones of everything

10:21

being, like, oh, I need to make this

10:23

into something. Yeah.

10:26

And so it can be quite dispiriting than when

10:28

you play for money as

10:29

well. Right. Yeah. And we'll

10:31

get into gambling later because this is one of

10:33

the things that that very heavily

10:35

muddied my ability to do video on this.

10:38

So yeah, it's it's it's exactly like

10:40

you say. It's it's very luck based and

10:42

you will just have players going marginal because, oh,

10:44

they just drew the one in fifty detail

10:47

that actually would recommend the game and boom

10:49

it's over. But

10:51

in addition to being luck based, the

10:53

strategy almost everything is is

10:55

strategic in a very subtle level with the probability

10:58

of trying to collect one tile versus another

11:00

or choosing to discard one tile versus another.

11:02

Like, people play mush onto an

11:04

excruciatingly high skill

11:06

level, and that's

11:08

so opaque when you start

11:11

playing. It's so subtle. And

11:13

it's difficult to want to pursue that skill

11:15

when, you know, I could be

11:17

really racking my brain to try and play

11:19

well. And it's probably

11:22

not going to overcome the lack that that

11:24

is determining whether I wanna lose.

11:26

Yeah. Especially at our level, which was

11:28

essentially, like, pathetic. At time. So

11:30

just disgusting. Like, I look regularly,

11:32

we would just well, we were drinking as

11:34

well, but we would all had moments where

11:36

we realized we just threw away something that we

11:38

actually needed or or had

11:40

or, like, the other weird thing is

11:42

that all of this Mahjong is discarded is

11:44

face up. So you regularly towards the end

11:47

of the game might have like forty face

11:49

up little picograms on the table. And

11:51

I tell you, Tom, the amount of time I'm like impatiently

11:53

waiting for a, you know, seven of coins. And

11:56

I realized that all of them are on the table and

11:58

I don't even know how long that's been true for

12:00

because, like, it could have been

12:02

fifteen minutes. I've been waiting for a child

12:04

that that I knew or I should have noticed

12:06

was never gonna come to

12:07

me. And I I do think as well that, like, the fact

12:09

that, you know, it does sound quite overwhelming when say

12:11

there's like loads loads of tiles on the table, but because

12:13

they're all so they are very

12:15

readable. The pictograms are on them.

12:18

And the fact that there are such you're dealing with

12:20

such low numbers of each kind

12:22

of tile. You know, there's like four of each or something,

12:24

you know. It's not hard to count the

12:26

table and survey the table and very quickly

12:28

surmise that the chance of getting this is

12:30

low or very low or impossible. And

12:33

as the game goes on, you do get this really lovely

12:35

second sense of like, well, this,

12:38

I need this kind of tile. I've got this many

12:40

of this kind of tile. The probability of

12:42

someone having thrown it away because they

12:44

realize that they weren't gonna get the other half

12:46

of this equation is probably very

12:48

high. So therefore, it's in the wall somewhere and

12:50

I've got a dig for it. Yeah. It's it's funny,

12:52

isn't it? What you're sort of describing

12:55

there is because

12:58

I met for evening after evening after evening of

13:00

Mahjong and it's very weird

13:02

to play a game where it's it's

13:04

it's a it's a sick sense. It's it's

13:06

a feeling, you know, because you're dealing with

13:08

such subtle probabilities and you're dealing with such

13:10

such a strategy and also, like, you know,

13:12

if you you're misplaying

13:15

because you want to win, you know, sometimes you're

13:17

pursuing things because they're exciting or, you know,

13:19

because if you pulled them off, that would be really cool. And then

13:21

that clashes with, like, so your own desires

13:23

are something you kinda have to fill out. It's

13:26

very interesting and cool

13:28

to be playing a game, which is more

13:30

on feel than on, like, you know,

13:32

like sort of obvious

13:35

mathematical tech tactical strategy. Do

13:37

is that making

13:38

sense? Yeah. No. That absolutely makes sense. And

13:40

think that that that kind of

13:42

of game really suits what what

13:44

Mahjong is, which is this like

13:47

every time we played it, the game was

13:49

was there. It was very present. But

13:52

mostly, you know, it's something that's quite pleasant

13:54

and laid back even when you are like really

13:56

thinking about the probabilities and the strategies because

13:58

there's that murkiness to it. It

14:01

kind of means that you can't, like,

14:03

go into sort of analysis paralysis, hobble,

14:06

and never come out. You know. It

14:08

has this sort of very pleasing nature of the components

14:10

and the pace that kind of sits as a backdrop

14:13

to like chatting and passing time that I think

14:15

if you could do more calculation, if

14:17

you could do more thinking and

14:19

planning, that would probably like

14:21

torpedo your

14:22

evening. Yeah. Or you'll be playing

14:24

it at such a high level that we will probably

14:27

never reach. Yes. No. That

14:29

is that is true. It's very

14:30

dispiriting, watching how fast people even

14:32

play marrying all their lives, play it

14:34

versus us who look like

14:37

we've, you know, children. We

14:39

compared to footage I've seen of

14:41

people in, like, Hong Kong, Mahjong, we looked

14:43

like a bunch of children who'd been locked in a room

14:45

with spilled paint and had been enabling it for

14:47

for, like, you know,

14:50

hours were so slow.

14:52

We were just so slow. But okay.

14:54

So, yeah, let's talk about that activity nature

14:56

of it a bit because The other aspect

14:59

of Mahjong is that, like,

15:02

one of the reasons that I

15:05

spent a a bit of time a few years ago looking

15:07

into class card games played with the fifty two card deck

15:09

for shut up and sit down is because I just wanted

15:11

to spend more time with cards -- Mhmm.

15:13

-- because cards and poker chip are just such

15:15

aesthetically pleasing objects to play with,

15:18

especially if you've got nice cards and nice poker chips

15:20

and a nice table to sit around you're if you're

15:22

that lucky. But And Mahjong

15:24

is is very much that. You

15:26

know, there is something pleasing about four

15:28

people all sat on each side of a perfectly

15:30

like square or round table. Yeah.

15:32

The tiles themselves are like this lovely

15:35

acrylic. Oh, before we go any further,

15:38

I have to shout out and thank masters

15:40

of games dot com. Because

15:43

mustard games dot com, a fine fine

15:45

UK shop. They're the people that hook me up with

15:47

Go boards for the Go Review and they're the people

15:49

who sent me a whole bunch of Marjonsets for

15:52

this for this video and I have opinions on them.

15:55

They sent me a really nice very

15:57

expensive Italian, Mahjong said,

15:59

that I did not like as much as

16:01

the like forty or fifty quid for fifty

16:03

forty fifty pound set that was imported

16:06

from from Asia. So in my

16:08

deeply limited experience, if you're interested in Marjorie,

16:10

you wanna collect a set because it's a lovely object.

16:13

I would say, get a set made in Asia

16:15

probably because surprise surprise that a game

16:17

that's predominantly popular in Asia is is is nicer

16:19

and high quality if you go with the Asian

16:21

versions. So

16:22

Did the did the expensive set not have

16:24

the little green backs to the tiles? No.

16:27

Yeah. This is the other thing. The really expensive set,

16:29

the tiles were just white or ivory,

16:31

you know, blue shaded. But we much

16:33

preferred having the two tone tiles that

16:35

had like a a really lush green

16:37

back. And then a white front.

16:38

It looks more aesthetically pleasing when you build

16:40

a big square out of them. It's nice. Yeah.

16:43

It it looks really good anyway. Yeah. So

16:45

please go to masters of games dot com thank them

16:47

because I I feel bad because they were like, oh yeah,

16:49

we'll send you Mahjong sets, but don't, you know, keep

16:51

them clean and I'm like cool. And now one of the Marjang

16:53

sets they sent me is full of crisp

16:55

crumbs. Yeah.

16:57

So how is

16:58

it full of Chris Crumbs? They're like some

17:00

tiles that Tom, it's really

17:02

No. The box that contains the tiles. Oh,

17:05

they get an there.

17:06

Determines we all have to move on. It's in

17:08

the past. Did

17:09

you use the box as a crisp bowl?

17:11

Mistakes were made I don't look, this

17:13

is ultimately. Ultimately, I'm very sad to say this,

17:16

but the Chris Crumbs not you at my problem anymore because I need

17:18

to pack these boxes up and send them back to masters

17:20

of games dot com.

17:21

Please go to musclesgames dot com for all your

17:24

games that may or may not include my Chris Combs.

17:26

See

17:27

if it were the tiles that were greasy, I'm sure

17:29

that you could at least, you know, put them in and

17:31

throw it in the washing machine and it would be

17:32

fine. Right? You I mean, potentially,

17:35

potentially, don't do anything that Tom or

17:37

I suggest.

17:37

I think you should do what I suggest. Well,

17:40

okay. So unless

17:43

you're playing with, you know, my audition that is, as

17:45

we've described oily and filthy, Marshall,

17:48

I'm just yeah. It's exactly what you were saying. It's a

17:50

really nice object to play with. The tiles

17:52

are nice to pick up. It's nice to shuffle

17:54

them. It's nice build little walls from them. They

17:56

make a nice noise. And

17:58

this pairs really well with what Mahjong is, which

18:00

is this like sedate game

18:03

of, you know, just drawing and hoping you get the right

18:05

tile It's like it's You

18:07

spend so much time in Mahjong drawing

18:09

tiles and hoping it's what you

18:11

want, that it's almost like half

18:13

card game, half scratch card. That's

18:15

Yes. Okay. You agree? Because

18:17

to me, that feels like somewhat unflattering depiction

18:19

of a of a procedural cultural institution.

18:22

I would put that with the caveat that at the level

18:25

that we were playing it at. It's a Sedrete

18:27

card game or Sedrete Caroline game

18:29

that feels like a scratch

18:30

card. I'm sure that any

18:32

tile game is a card game if you if you

18:34

punch it hard enough. So you don't

18:36

need to make that distinction.

18:38

Yeah. No. I I do agree with you that yeah. Like,

18:40

for certain at the level that we were playing yet, there was lots

18:42

of, like, I think that you compared it at times to, like,

18:44

pulling the lever on machine when you were, like, picking

18:47

up those towers in the middle. Where, like,

18:49

when we were playing it, when we were sort

18:51

of unsure of what certainly,

18:53

what our opponents were gonna be spitting

18:55

out of their hands. Like, that was the main thing

18:57

is that I think if you were playing this game at a high

18:59

level, you could somewhat game the

19:01

ability or push your opponents

19:03

to discard tiles that you might want

19:06

by showing your hand in certain ways. But did

19:08

you say that one of your friends was like, bidding

19:10

tiles that they actually needed so that other

19:12

people would feel safe to bin those tiles

19:14

so that he could scoop up those tiles

19:16

at bigger

19:17

sets. I can't remember. That was exactly

19:20

what he did. Well, I mean, we've we've talked about

19:22

strategies so far without getting on to

19:24

where where the majority of strategy

19:28

and margin comes from and also difficulties

19:30

in reviewing it. So should we talk about

19:33

scoring?

19:33

Yeah. Well, you talk about scoring. I actually

19:35

need to lip to the bathroom

19:37

so I can sort let you do that. You're

19:39

welcome. I'm gonna

19:40

be about five minutes.

19:42

I I'll give you five minutes. Tom's

19:45

making a joke there based on the fact that this is

19:47

going to take me five minutes. Jokes at him,

19:49

I think I can get it done in under five

19:51

minutes. So here

19:52

we go. The problem with the

19:56

big problem with are you actually going to the

19:58

bathroom? Are you No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Okay.

20:00

Good. That you know what? That makes you feel better.

20:02

I prefer talking to you even though

20:04

you just have to sit there and listen and talk them clearly

20:06

to silence. Okay. So Mahjong

20:09

has a lot of variants. You know,

20:11

hang on. Let's let's just let's Rather

20:13

than me trying to imperfectly do this from memory,

20:15

let's head to dot wkydock dot com

20:17

to learn all of the rules. So

20:20

So when you decide to play the

20:22

next question is what Maisons do you want to play? Do

20:24

you want to play American? Chinese basketball? Chinese official?

20:27

Hong Kong, I'll Hong Kong new style, Japanese classical

20:29

Japanese modern Malaysian, Filipino, Ritchie,

20:32

Korean

20:32

Taiwanese, then there's the world

20:34

Mahjong Federation overview, and the world

20:36

series of

20:37

Maisons. Of my goodness. Yeah.

20:40

And Which did we play? We played

20:43

classical we played Chinese

20:45

classical. Okay. Partially because It

20:48

was included in the margarine set

20:50

I liked the most, a very

20:53

ambitiously translated flimsy piece

20:55

of paper that was like how to play much on.

20:57

And it turned out it was describing Chinese

20:59

classical. So,

21:02

oh, god. The problem

21:04

is that When you are

21:06

learning Mahjong, while the rules the

21:08

the core rules tend not to vary that much,

21:11

the when you finish around, players

21:14

then score the hand of

21:16

tiles that they that they've had.

21:18

And in some variants, like in classical Chinese who

21:20

we were playing, Everyone

21:22

reveals the value of the hand they had.

21:25

And then the purse okay. Well, now we'll get you

21:27

to gambling. You see this this this stuff

21:29

is Oh, boy. This

21:31

is this is one of the reasons I had trouble

21:33

doing a review. So let's let's stick a pin in which

21:35

version of Marjorie you're playing because when you're

21:37

deciding which version of Marjorie to play,

21:40

you also, as part of that, have to decide whether

21:42

you're playing for money or not. And this really

21:44

slipped me up. This when I came to write

21:46

the video review because I know that

21:49

playing games for money. I know two things,

21:51

Tom. First off, oh, let's call it three things.

21:53

First off, a lot of people really

21:55

dislike gambling out there. And for good

21:57

reason, gambling has horrific that

22:00

can have horrific and addictive qualities

22:02

on the human brain. It can wreck

22:04

lives. I have done a video from my other

22:06

channel. People make games where I looked

22:08

at some online casinos

22:11

and spiked again. We had a terrific stuff.

22:13

So I know that. I also know

22:16

that playing games for money makes them

22:18

feel very different. Yeah. People

22:21

who have not gambled for

22:23

money or who choose not

22:25

to, might not be

22:27

aware of this, but people like myself

22:29

who have on like a couple of dozen

22:31

occasions across my whole life you know, chosen

22:33

to play games for small stakes, you know, money.

22:36

If you you might not know that if

22:39

you play poker not for money, it just

22:41

feels completely different than if

22:43

you play for money, even if you're playing for small stakes.

22:46

The game is infused with

22:49

kind of a desperation and a seriousness

22:52

and attention, which

22:54

doesn't just make it like more hardcore.

22:56

In some cases, it makes it funnier because,

23:00

like, even if you're just playing to have fun,

23:03

playing for money can make it game funnier because

23:05

it means someone doing really badly in

23:07

a round is more entertaining for everybody.

23:10

Yes. I yeah. I it's

23:12

it's peculiar. Right? But Tom, how

23:14

would you say to my notion that playing games

23:16

for money isn't about trying to win money from

23:18

your friends? It's about the spectacle

23:21

of somebody losing money, and that's funny

23:23

and provides relief for everybody.

23:25

Yeah. And and I I agree with that.

23:27

Long as everyone is genuinely comfortable

23:29

with losing the the the full amount

23:31

of money that you have set out. So we paid

23:33

for like five pounds. Right? Yeah.

23:35

Or or something like that. And then someone losing

23:38

a a fiber on anything is is

23:40

just is in in that circumstance,

23:43

but those people was funny. But

23:45

it becomes obviously awkward if someone, if

23:47

five pounds means more to someone.

23:50

Yeah. Or if five pounds is something that, like,

23:52

would be an upsetting amount of money to lose. For us,

23:54

it was like, we all I essentially came to that

23:56

event to the to our Marajangknight

23:59

being like, I've spent five pounds to

24:01

be here. And believe

24:03

it or not, I did spend five pounds to

24:05

be here. There was something so incredibly funny about. So

24:07

the first time, I think I lost all of my money

24:09

or near about all of my money. And the second

24:11

time that me and you played, I

24:13

did win some money and I got a bank transfer

24:16

from

24:16

you. I was gonna post this to Twitter. I

24:18

got a bank transfer from Quinn's. Was,

24:20

like, probably the the lowest that I've had individually transferred.

24:23

It was, like, a pound and thirty four pence.

24:26

March on Wednesday. Yeah. I said

24:28

that with the with the bank reference Mahjong Winnings.

24:30

Yeah. I think I said I think I said

24:32

Annie, like, sixty p in

24:34

a wire transfer. Yeah.

24:37

So okay. And then the so the

24:40

third thing however I know about gambling

24:42

is that it really splits shut up as

24:44

it down's audience down the middle. We have Sure.

24:47

A lot of people who see absolutely

24:49

nothing wrong with gambling occasionally and think

24:51

it's fun or don't care and we have

24:53

a lot of people who are very vigorously

24:56

opposed to it. This then

24:58

makes doing a video of complicated

25:01

because it originated as a gambling

25:03

game. The reason it has been eroded

25:05

from history by successive Chinese governments is

25:07

because it's it's

25:09

used to gamble money. And while

25:11

you know, all the rules you'll find online don't

25:14

refer to money. And actually, this is very confusing.

25:16

But there's a lot of quite exhaustive resources

25:18

online that talk about how to play Maisons.

25:22

And then if if you wanna

25:24

know, okay, but how does this translate to winning

25:26

and losing money? It's so

25:29

hard to find that out. And

25:31

-- Right. -- you have to like, I ended up on,

25:33

like, weird subreddits of, like, okay. But how

25:36

do I play Chinese classical for money?

25:38

Because I know that that is kind

25:40

of for many people the default. But, you know, you show up

25:42

to your margin on the evening. You're lose a little bit

25:44

and you do that every week. Mhmm. So

25:47

we did pay margin for money, and then I just didn't

25:49

want to have to try and negotiate this in a video review

25:51

where already I was I'm trying to be, like, really minimalist

25:53

with my word count, with the podcast. I feel like, I can

25:55

ramble more. Show So

25:58

anyway, right. So that's that's our separate discussion

26:00

about gambling. I felt that Play not

26:02

for money wouldn't really let me

26:04

do an adequate review, but also felt that

26:07

talking about how, oh, I just played this game for money was

26:09

going to alienate a lot of our audience in

26:11

a nutshell. So anyway, once

26:13

you've decided whether you're playing module for money or not, let's

26:15

return to that question of which variant

26:18

you are playing in terms of scoring and

26:20

bulls. Whether it's Chinese classical

26:22

or, you know, rechi or or whatever. Long

26:25

story short, I don't know. I

26:27

just know that I gravitated towards ones that were

26:29

simpler. But broadly speaking,

26:32

none of them are simple. I was

26:34

told to look at Hong Kong Old Style

26:36

by some people. But the amount of

26:38

lists, you know what? Let me just jump to a

26:40

list of a list of hands that you'd have

26:42

to learn to play Hong Kong Doll. Right. Okay.

26:44

I've got the list in front of me. You know how poker has

26:46

like flushes. And stripes and a full

26:48

house. Right? But there's only really, like,

26:50

five or six. In

26:53

in in Hong Kong, Saint Mahjong,

26:55

there's something like seven or eight times that.

26:57

You know, you've got the thirteen orphans, which is a

26:59

hand made of all single tiles

27:01

and the terminals, which is the one and nine

27:03

of each of the suits. There's nine gates which is

27:06

concealed hand of 11123456789999

27:10

in one suit. Oh, no. There's

27:12

big four wins which is three

27:14

of a kind of all four of the wins in

27:16

the game. Mhmm. You know, there's

27:19

there's the full flush with a hand consistently of

27:21

a suit, of tiles of one suit. Like,

27:23

if I was to print out, like, you couldn't

27:25

fit all this on a reference card, I would need to print

27:27

print you out print this out for you on a double sided

27:29

piece of a four. So

27:32

I chose to do yeah.

27:35

We ended up playing Chinese classical scoring,

27:37

which is simpler because you don't have to memorize hands.

27:40

And I ended up liking it

27:42

because of the doubling rules in it,

27:44

which is something I've not seen in

27:47

any game before. But loosely

27:49

speaking, with

27:51

Chinese classical scoring, you

27:54

have all kinds of things that can double

27:56

your score. So you add up roughly

27:58

what score you've got from your from your various

28:00

melds and and runs and stuff. But

28:02

then if you have, for example, three

28:05

of a kind of the oh goodness.

28:07

The wind, which is like North Southeast West relating

28:09

to where you are sitting, then you can double

28:12

your score If you have three dragons,

28:14

you can double your score. You know, if

28:16

you have if you have a hand

28:18

that is all one suit, to

28:21

all bamboo, for example, then you

28:23

double your score three

28:25

times, but that's not like it's not like

28:27

if you have two, you it's two plus

28:29

two plus two. I mean, it's like if you had a hand

28:32

of thirty, you would double it to sixty, then you

28:34

would double sixty to a hundred and twenty, then you would double a

28:36

hundred and twenty. Two hundred forty.

28:39

And this this ends up if

28:41

if, like, if you're not playing Marjorie for money, then this

28:43

could be, like, really disparaging because if someone gets

28:45

a really good hand, then that

28:47

just means that probably none of you are gonna get a

28:49

higher score than them. Right? If you're just playing margin on it

28:51

for points. But if you're playing for money, that

28:54

becomes hilarious. Because you showed up thinking

28:56

you might lose a few quid. And then suddenly someone

28:58

pulled off the, you know, once

29:00

in a year of weekly Maisons

29:02

night Mahjong had and suddenly you're all like,

29:04

oh, we all owe you fifteen pounds.

29:08

So and

29:10

then one other kind of however, While

29:13

I was told to play Hong Kong Old Star because

29:15

it's very popular and I ended up playing Chinese classical

29:17

because I like the doubling rules, I did find

29:19

a a board game geek thread, God bless you board

29:21

game geek. In which somebody

29:24

who played a few different popular styles

29:26

of Mahjong said that the style that

29:28

he would recommend for newcomers

29:30

is Zongjiang,

29:33

which is also known as the world series of Mahjong

29:36

overview, which he felt had the best aspects

29:38

of like accessibility and easy to learn.

29:40

While also being, like, the fairest

29:43

because one thing that it

29:46

by fairest, I mean, it more emphasizes skill

29:49

than it does luck. And that

29:51

slot machine nature that Marsha can have, which was

29:53

God. That was a whole long ramble. But

29:56

you can see how this this

29:59

got in the way of me doing a video review right, Tom?

30:01

Because III like,

30:04

it's a review of Maisons. I it's like, okay. But which

30:06

Maisons? And why? And I

30:08

I couldn't answer that. And then but even

30:10

trying to answer that, immediately got me tucked into the question

30:12

of, well, are you are you playing it as a

30:14

skill game or a gambling game? Which forced

30:16

me to, like, try and square the circle

30:19

of, like, well, how do I please the

30:21

members of shut ups and audience who going to be upset

30:23

by gambling. While also wanting

30:25

to, like, honor Mahjong as

30:28

a historic object where it is fundamentally

30:30

and more often than

30:31

not, played for a little bit of money. Yeah.

30:33

And I think also, like, I think

30:35

that you were quite apt. Jordan, the president,

30:38

you were saying it's like reviewing all of poker.

30:40

You know, like, every single possible

30:43

variant of Poker. And and you're and you're right that, like,

30:45

I'm I'm sure that because

30:47

what we played with all of the doubling rules and stuff,

30:50

did lead to a game that I'm sure

30:52

other variants of Mahjong might not be you

30:54

know, they're gonna be different to to how we played

30:56

and how we played it was definitely a game where

30:59

you could show me my hand and I'd look at it and be

31:01

like, I can't quite work out how many

31:03

points this is worth. Because so many things double

31:05

and so many things change your score and

31:07

what's worth what is is is something that's quite

31:10

hard to grasp such as a newcomer. Like,

31:12

it's it's definitely telling that during your sort of

31:14

teach of Mahjong, the scoring definitely

31:16

was the part that took the longest to

31:18

explain. Yes. And

31:20

and every single round would end with

31:23

that little tiny leaflet, like, propped open

31:25

and going through each of our scores. Like, no one could

31:27

work out their score on their own. They all

31:29

needed, you know, papa Quinn's to come over

31:31

and tell her tell them what they'd made.

31:33

I'd tell

31:34

you her what the money you had you were going

31:36

to now give to me. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

31:38

There were there were some really funny rounds where you would come

31:40

around and be like, right? So, Tom, you've got done into that, and you've got

31:42

a score of, I don't know, like, fifty or six or something

31:44

like that. I don't know. And I've been like, oh, that seems pretty good

31:46

and you're like, yeah, sure. And then later on, you'd be like,

31:48

right. And he got a score of two hundred and ninety.

31:50

You know? You all over

31:53

loads and loads of

31:54

money. Yeah. I also really liked how

31:56

in Chinese classical scoring, and you don't get this

31:58

with Hong Kong girl's style or Zhejiang. You only

32:00

pay money to the person who goes Mahjong. Like,

32:02

whatever hand you got, if if you didn't

32:04

Magon, it's irrelevant because you're just

32:06

all the all the points or money. It's flowing

32:08

to the person who went Mahjong, which

32:11

means it's a it's a more aggressive

32:13

game because you just have to go Marjang and

32:15

giving up a tile that lets someone else win the game

32:17

is is awful. Whereas

32:19

we played in challenge classical scoring the thing that

32:22

the person who goes Mahjong, everyone pays

32:24

their money or points. And

32:26

then they're not included in what happens next,

32:28

which is all the three surviving

32:30

players with all the three remaining players

32:33

have to pay one another the difference between their

32:35

scores. So that's in some

32:37

rounds, you would see someone, like, revealing

32:40

melds of, like, oh, I've got three dragons. Oh, I've

32:42

got four of my prop, you know, prevalent wind.

32:44

And then it becomes like o guards. Their

32:46

score is going to be doubled into the stratosphere

32:49

I need to go Mahjong just to get out

32:51

of the scoring that's gonna happen between

32:53

the players who are left behind like after the

32:55

rapture. Yes. And who had

32:57

just left stuck on the table counting their pennies

32:59

to pay one another? We should also

33:01

talk about I don't know whether this is specific to

33:03

the variant that we played or whether that's across

33:05

all of Mahjong, but the absolutely

33:08

absurd rule where if

33:10

you win around, if you're the dealer

33:12

or or or the first player. I can win around.

33:15

You just play you just play another

33:17

round with you as a dealer and you get more points

33:19

if you march on right as

33:20

dealer. I wanted to bring this up because it's one

33:23

of my favorite things. Yes. So I

33:25

a game of Maisons

33:27

such as it is, is everybody takes a turn beating

33:29

the dealer. So four people, you know, if if

33:31

if you if you're good at Maisons, that maybe takes an

33:33

hour. For us. It takes all evening.

33:36

But but, yes,

33:38

if you win as the dealer, you

33:40

stay as the dealer and play another game. So,

33:43

like,

33:43

oh, goodness. So

33:45

there's four So your so your hour long game has

33:47

now become an hour and a quarter or your evening

33:49

long name has now become an evening and a

33:51

quarter. Yeah. And and something and

33:54

not I don't think board games as a hobby

33:56

should should take that. But one thing I did

33:58

really like in Mahjong is that, as you say,

34:00

The dealer, when you are the dealer,

34:03

if you win, you win double from everybody

34:05

else, but if you lose, you pay

34:07

double. So -- Yeah. -- everyone

34:10

in our evening of Mahjong had one round

34:12

which was just more intense for them. And

34:15

I loved that really. I

34:17

loved it. I loved the I loved

34:19

card games in general where it's like this is a small game,

34:21

but we're gonna play it four times and add our scores

34:23

together. A lot of ink games do that,

34:25

a lot of classic card games do that, small games do that

34:28

basically where it's like -- Yes. -- this is a fifteen

34:30

minute game and it's not gonna feel like enough

34:32

by itself, so we're gonna repeat it. I

34:34

love that Mahjong says, we're gonna repeat this,

34:36

but for each of you, you will rank you know, you'll

34:38

because I randomly just have a round that's

34:40

more important and more intense for you. What

34:42

your mistakes will be worse. And

34:44

if you get lucky, it'll be even better. I

34:46

think that's so cool. And

34:49

one thing I'll mention is one of the I

34:51

I believe it's in Hong Kong old style. One of the

34:53

things that can happen in Hong Kong old style is if

34:55

the dealer wins thirteen times

34:57

in a row, they get an automatic

35:00

fourteenth win -- Yeah. --

35:02

which is like oh, go. Like, a lot of

35:04

Mahjong Scurry is full of stuff that is

35:06

annoying to teach because it's so

35:09

improbable, then it's

35:11

like I I have to now teach you about six different

35:13

hands that I I would put my life

35:15

savings on no one will

35:17

get. You don't. Yeah. Because

35:19

it reminds me when you talk about those things, when you

35:21

talk about I sort of the the the orphans

35:23

and the gate and all of that stuff for for

35:25

the other scoring

35:25

things. It reminds me of that incredibly

35:29

silly pub game Egyptian rat screw

35:31

where the point is that you'll forget

35:33

what hands you could like

35:34

sort of smackdown on. It's I don't

35:36

know how to explain it to to people who haven't seen that

35:39

little video. But it's it's very much this

35:41

sort of fast paced slamming card

35:43

game that kind of has more in common with snap than

35:45

it does anything

35:46

else. But it's absolutely delightful.

35:48

It's it's did you play the version of Egyptian

35:50

wrap screw where you have to slap your forehead before

35:52

you start the table? Oh, yeah. It's

35:55

it's incredibly funny to have bookers are.

35:57

This is this is now just a a, you know,

35:59

Egyptian rat screw aside about how much I bloody

36:01

love that game, where because everyone

36:03

is so fierce in trying to slap the

36:05

pile as quickly as possible, to win the round

36:08

or win the hand or whatever. When

36:10

you then juice the raw weight to slip their head

36:12

first. They're doing it at such a speed.

36:15

But everyone at the end of the night has these perfect

36:18

round red marks on their forehead. You know,

36:20

it's funny if someone snaps their head and then snaps

36:22

the pile, but funnier if everyone slacks their own

36:24

head and then doesn't quite make it to the pile in

36:26

time. It just feels like they slap himself in

36:28

the face for no reason. That's

36:30

great. Oh, that's great. What again? Well, this was this

36:32

is this is the thing about classic

36:34

games, isn't it? That it's I

36:37

think, you know, people on the

36:39

internet can be kind disappointed when shut

36:41

up is down, you know, rather than covering whatever

36:43

new hot game that everyone's talking about. We go

36:45

back into into history

36:47

times, and we'd take

36:48

games that people were playing in the eighties like Egyptian

36:50

rat through. Well, two hundred years ago like Mahjong,

36:53

but the reason we do it and I had a whole aside

36:55

on this in the Marjang review is that if

36:57

a game has been kept in the public

37:00

consciousness for that long, like,

37:02

if that it

37:04

it's because if a if a game is kept

37:06

on life support in that way by by

37:08

people who just love it, there's

37:11

something to it. Yeah. You

37:13

and if you and with Mahjong, like,

37:16

I discovered what there is to it. It's a tremendously subtle

37:18

game. It's tactile. It's satisfying. And

37:21

It's a game it's the gambling game I found

37:23

with the most potential for just

37:25

wild stuff happening. Like, you

37:27

know, you you can have poker hands that, like,

37:30

Oh, wow. That was pretty crazy. But Mahjong

37:32

has hands that are like just

37:34

stratospherically

37:35

unlikely. And if they do happen, you can

37:37

get like a squillion dollars from your friends,

37:39

which is I don't know. Is that good?

37:42

I don't know, but it's interesting. I definitely

37:44

think that it's a really It's

37:47

unique though to me where I

37:49

think whilst we played crocodile, went back

37:51

and we played some crocodile, went back and we played some

37:53

go. And both of those games, I could sort

37:55

of like view through a lens of like

37:57

modern board games that I enjoy, and I could put

37:59

them in a sort of similar spot. To them.

38:02

Module is very strange one because it's a

38:04

very different mode of engagement like with

38:07

the

38:07

systems. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

38:08

It's like you're right that it's tremendously subtle, but

38:10

it's also like it's so different

38:13

to a lot of the other like classic, you

38:15

know, quote on quote, game games is where we're

38:17

playing these things that are much more like, you

38:19

know, there's something that you're kind of plugging into

38:21

the strategy of. The the the sort of

38:24

myopic nature. Myopic nature

38:26

of of trying to work out what the hell I was doing

38:28

in Mahjong was like a really interesting puzzle

38:30

in love itself. And you're right that because

38:33

it stuck around for so long, you're more invested

38:35

in thinking about that puzzle.

38:37

You know, I I always I would wonder

38:39

if we got a sort of box copy of under

38:42

different name, whether we would be dismissive of it.

38:44

But because we know that it stuck around

38:46

for this long, it does lend a

38:48

sort of automatic

38:50

sort of excitement to to see why

38:52

people are still talking about it all these years

38:54

later. Yes. Absolutely. I

38:56

the fact that it's a historical object means treat

38:58

it very differently. And actually, this is perfect point to

39:00

end the podcast on because this is the last thing I wanted

39:03

to talk about. And if

39:05

someone was to release Egyptian rat screw

39:07

or, you know, go today as a

39:09

game. I think they would do very

39:11

well. And I just don't know if that's

39:14

true for Mahjong. But that is

39:16

not necessarily reason to not go out and

39:18

try it because the fact that Maisons is

39:20

this rich historical object meant

39:22

I really enjoyed engaging

39:25

with all of its idiosyncrasies because I knew

39:27

they were like, I don't know. Like,

39:29

it's if some if I went to This

39:31

is a this is a this is a horrific analogy,

39:33

and I apologize to to everybody who

39:35

is it, both English and people

39:37

in New Asia. But if I went to

39:40

historic English folk festival. And someone

39:42

was like, do you wanna learn Morris dancing? I would

39:44

be like, yes. Give me that big wooden stick.

39:47

I'm involved. I wanna learn about this

39:49

bizarre pagan ritual that has been

39:51

going on for a thousand years or longer.

39:54

And but if so if I went to just somebody's

39:56

house and he was like, Quinn's I've invented this

39:59

sick new dance. Take this stick. I'm gonna teach

40:01

it to you. I would be like, no. Absolutely

40:03

not. That's that's that's I'm not gonna dance

40:05

in your garage with you. Put that stick down.

40:07

I'm intimidated, and this is awful. Yeah.

40:09

And so Mahjong, if it was released now, it's about product,

40:12

I would be like, no, this is demented. I don't want to play

40:14

this. It's There's a million things I would rather play.

40:16

But as a historical artifact, I

40:19

found it so interesting to engage with, like, I so

40:21

and the thing wanted to flag specifically, the example,

40:24

is that I found out after two full evenings

40:26

of Mahjong that, like, okay, there are tiles in the

40:28

game that relate to North, Southeastern West, The dealer

40:30

is always east and so depending on

40:32

where you're set on the table, the compass direction

40:35

tiles relating to where you are sitting are

40:37

better. And so

40:39

we had players be like, wait, oh, okay. If Tom's the dealer,

40:41

that means I'm never each shredded way. I'm

40:43

west. But then what I found

40:45

out is that in Mahjong, it's based

40:48

on classical Chinese

40:51

interpretation of of compass directions, which

40:53

is based on looking up at the stars, rather

40:55

than considering the compass as if you were looking

40:57

down at the Earth, which means the compass

41:00

has flipped. So it go it's not

41:02

northeast, southwest. It's northwest, Southeast.

41:06

And I found that and, like, if

41:08

if you'd release as a box game, I would

41:10

be like, that alone would cause

41:12

me to frisbee out the window. But

41:16

but knowing that it's I'm engaging with,

41:18

like, you know, like, part

41:20

of historic Chinese and sometimes even

41:23

confusion history, I think this is

41:25

awesome. I'm fascinated. It's so

41:27

cool. But is ultimately

41:31

it and the reason I'm we're doing this as a podcast

41:33

rather than a video, I was not comfortable releasing a

41:35

video where I said, Marjag is cool

41:37

kinda as a historical object that I can't access

41:39

because of my mayonnaise white

41:42

background and it's it's just not something

41:44

I grew up

41:44

around. It's not something I

41:45

Sure. It's so much of it's based on stuff that I

41:47

have absolutely no sort

41:49

of like touch point with. So

41:52

all I could really say is, you know, do do

41:54

I like it as a game? And ultimately, just

41:57

as a game, if you're not interested in

41:59

history, I would say

42:01

maybe you could try Maersong,

42:03

but III don't really know if it's for

42:05

you. I think because you you and you

42:07

felt the same way. Right? You you didn't truly

42:10

love it as a

42:10

game. You found it interesting, but you didn't.

42:12

Yeah. Right. I think I think that's pretty

42:15

much right. In the I think, like, I I think

42:17

I really didn't I came away from our first session

42:19

really not liking it, but then I think the

42:21

second time we played it, I'd sort of kind

42:24

of was sort of coming to terms with what it

42:26

was rather than what I sort of expected

42:28

it to be. And and that second

42:31

time I sort of enjoyed it much more for what it for

42:33

what it is and and for what it exists as. But, yeah,

42:35

I do think that it's a it's an especially strange

42:37

question to sort of pitch to

42:39

a kind of our audience certainly

42:42

by being like, hey, do you wanna

42:44

play this this this game?

42:46

Question mark. It's very,

42:48

very, very luck driven sedate,

42:51

slow, and confusing. But

42:54

But it's been around for ages. So question

42:56

about question about question about I don't know. Like, it's I

43:00

I would struggle to find a spot for

43:02

this game in sort of like I was thinking

43:04

when would I choose it over like

43:07

something else that has

43:09

a bit more like bike to the design of it? And I think

43:11

don't know. Like, I was trying think would I ever

43:13

introduce this, like, for example, to my family

43:15

because it has that pace of, like, game that we can

43:17

talk over. We we really like rummy cup, and my family

43:20

is obsessed with rummy cup. They love that game.

43:22

And Mahjong is just it's because of all

43:24

of that history and because of all his variants and because

43:26

of all that time it's been out there. It's so heavy

43:28

with all of these, like, rules and traditions

43:30

that it's quite inaccessible. And

43:33

then you did a very good job of teaching and getting

43:35

us into it, but Even some of the tutorials

43:37

online that I watch were like not really

43:39

quite I didn't quite understand the

43:41

game even after watching tutorials. And

43:44

you're bet you maybe you're right. It's because the gambling element isn't

43:46

that and it's because they don't say, hey, straight

43:48

up when you're learning this game, there's gonna be a lot

43:50

of luck involved. And,

43:52

yeah, it makes it a hard sell

43:54

for, like, a a an audience used to designer

43:57

board games, I guess. Yeah. And I

43:59

I felt ultimately that, you know, even aside

44:01

from all the gambling and and how complicated the

44:04

game has to teach, I think that

44:06

maybe more than any other, the reason I

44:08

didn't want to do a video on this was I didn't

44:10

feel comfortable putting it

44:13

in front. I wanted to be

44:15

delicate about this game. Because, you know, it's not my

44:17

culture. It's not my history. Yeah.

44:19

But equally, I didn't feel I could review

44:21

it without being, like, ultimately, as a game,

44:23

I don't think it's as good as some other historic

44:26

gambling games, you know, like poker. And

44:29

I I would rather play poker. I would rather play

44:31

you know, beret, I would rather play I don't

44:33

know if we're if we're talking about

44:35

I don't I don't know. I don't know what I would rather play. But

44:37

-- Sure. --

44:38

I I didn't feel comfortable being critical of

44:40

Mahjong. And I didn't because of because

44:42

it's not my culture and I didn't feel comfortable

44:45

not being critical of it because that's what you

44:47

go to a shot up and sit down video for. So I

44:49

just thought, you know what? I called you up and said,

44:51

Tom, I'm not gonna put out a video review

44:54

Sorry, the content calendar is screwy.

44:56

I'm just going to ramble about marginal,

44:58

with you on podcast for,

45:01

you know, coming up on an hour. I

45:04

really, really appreciate you you let

45:06

it you sort of letting me out of the

45:09

the the sort of critics cabin that I

45:11

blocked myself in by

45:12

accident. And I'm Yeah. No. I've sort of you

45:14

know, I guess I've done you a service here by by,

45:16

you know, sort of hosting hosting you on on this

45:18

here podcast that that I make. Okay.

45:22

Yeah. No no no worries. Where can

45:24

people find you on social media

45:26

though? I was just III

45:28

really, really cannot stress how the

45:30

the what the people who've really come out worse in this aside

45:32

from Mahjong fans. Our masters

45:35

games dot com because they

45:37

were like, yes, we will send you a box full of

45:39

incredibly expensive Mahjong

45:40

equipment. And

45:42

then I said, cool. I'll give you a link in the video.

45:44

Now there's no video. There's no video.

45:47

So if you're in the UK or Europe,

45:49

why not go to masters of games dot com

45:51

and see all the bizarre, fascinating

45:53

historical wooden stuff they've got on that

45:55

site. My goodness. If I needed a

45:57

wooden game that didn't know how to play, master's

46:00

games dot com is where I'd go for it. I really do like

46:02

them as a UK soccer ever started games,

46:04

and I feel really bad that didn't get them a

46:06

link. So if you wanna make me feel better, Why

46:08

not visit master's of

46:09

games

46:09

dot com?

46:10

Yeah. And use the code Quintin Ted.

46:13

No. I'm not. No. I'm not. No. Don't

46:15

make this I'm trying to be nice here and you're

46:18

making it sound like I've got a financial

46:20

stake in masters of games dot com

46:22

and I don't. Don't.

46:24

I just feel bad for them because I got crisps

46:26

in their game. And I'm

46:28

having a We do it for any home for it. Could

46:31

have been you and your your your your young

46:33

friends who are all sort of giggling and flinging crisps

46:35

everywhere. Yeah. That that is what we did.

46:37

We turned up with our giant bag of skips and

46:39

we just threw them all over your apartment. Dude,

46:41

I I don't know I don't know what the

46:43

joke is there because that's that's very close to what actually

46:46

happened. I saw you up at the

46:48

table making those drinks and making a real

46:50

mess. So if those tiles are sticky, it's because you

46:52

got like Cuba Libre is

46:54

a cup of Libre?

46:55

No. That's a board. It's a rub. Oh, yeah.

46:57

Yeah. Look. I

46:59

feel I feel accused that I don't like

47:02

this. Hey. But I'll tell you what, wind up on the site this

47:04

week. Instead of a review of Mahjong

47:06

because I couldn't review

47:07

Maisons. It's my review of Alice's missing,

47:09

Tom, if you watched it yet. I haven't watched

47:11

it. No. Because I haven't watched you

47:14

know, we're recording this before I, you know,

47:17

we'll we'll see if it comes out because Quinn's,

47:19

you said Tom, can you watch it and make sure there's no

47:21

errors in the video. And so I've got

47:23

to make sure there's no errors in the video, but you're going

47:25

away

47:26

today. So maybe if there's

47:28

errors in the video, it won't even be up

47:30

by the time this podcast

47:31

goes out. Oh, that's no. I'd

47:34

I I refuse to believe that. I really

47:36

So if there's no Alice's missing video,

47:38

it's because Quinn's ghost it. This

47:41

this

47:41

this this podcast in particular

47:43

is really not good for my brand as Yeah.

47:45

It's representing all your various failures.

47:47

Something And I've got a phone to pick with you because

47:49

you told all the listeners about that time that

47:52

you came around and I tried to teach you my dance and

47:54

my garbage.

47:56

That's a callback to a joke we made about twenty

47:58

minutes ago. That's a good amount of time to have

48:00

passed

48:02

before doing that joke.

48:03

I'm a professional. Thank you very much for

48:05

listening everybody. We'll be back with the game. It's less

48:07

culturally complicated than Marjorie. Next

48:10

week.

48:10

That's right. It's time to talk about Monopoly. See

48:12

you later. Bye. Oh, no.