0:05

Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is

0:07

Oliver Hudson. We wanted to

0:09

do something that highlighted our relationship and

0:11

what it's like to be siblings. We

0:19

are a sibling. Railvalry, No,

0:22

no, sibling. You

0:25

don't do that with your mouth, Revelry.

0:33

That's good, Oliver,

0:40

Oliver, this was

0:43

a great it's a great episode.

0:45

It I think speaks to a lot of the things

0:47

on the show and

0:50

one big major theme in our life, which

0:52

is being I guess

0:55

sort of estranged with our father,

0:57

even though we do connect here

1:00

there and that

1:02

how common, that is, how unfortunately

1:05

common it is for

1:07

someone to be estranged from someone

1:09

in their family. An actual

1:11

listener shared this

1:15

book with us, and then we got in touch

1:17

with him and asked if he'd come and

1:19

talked with us about, you

1:21

know, family complications.

1:24

We're talking to doctor Carl Pillmer.

1:27

He's actually a family sociologist. He's

1:30

a professor at

1:32

Cornell University, where I went

1:35

and that's my alma mater. Who

1:40

was I just talking to you recently? Who went to Cornell

1:42

or someone who's kid. Maybe I don't think we're gonna

1:44

have anyone in our family go to Cornell no,

1:48

definitely not. Maybe Ronnie, maybe

1:52

being and Bodie. They're kind, they're

1:54

smart kids. They're way smarter

1:57

than we were, to be honest,

2:00

just let's just make sure they don't hear this podcast.

2:04

I got an email yesterday

2:06

because again, like Bodium, you know, he's always

2:08

on top of things and I never have to worry

2:10

about him. And I get an email saying

2:12

that he is seventeen assignments

2:15

missing one seven. I'm like, what

2:17

the fuck? How's

2:20

that happened? I

2:22

confronted him and he

2:25

just did, you know it so great about body. I'm

2:28

talking a little quiet because he's kind of near the

2:30

next room, but he just did. He

2:32

was like, he just said, you know what I

2:36

got. I'm tired, and I got lazy.

2:39

I was tired and lazy, and I just, you know, I

2:41

put it off and put it off, and it just built

2:44

up and it was too many to actually

2:46

go back and do, and I got tired and I got lazy.

2:49

I was like, you're like, how am I mad at

2:51

that? I'm like, wow, okay, okay, great,

2:53

well, thank you's

2:56

being so open and let's just get

2:58

it done. I couldn't get mad. That's

3:02

so funny, you know, Okay, I'm

3:04

gonna top this story. Ready for this Bing.

3:09

We feel like he's doing all his work, and

3:12

all of a sudden, I get a call same

3:14

thing, so Bing

3:17

is missing fifty one assignments,

3:22

and I was like, this has to be a mistake.

3:24

You mean fifteen assignments,

3:26

no fifty one? And

3:28

so I go to Bing and I'm like, Bing, we

3:31

need to talk about this. You know, so

3:36

you're missing and I couldn't even like get

3:38

get it out fifty

3:41

one assignments and he was looking

3:43

at me like like it's

3:46

like in his mind, he's like, there's

3:48

no way I'm missing fifty one

3:51

silence, and in why am I I'm going

3:53

there's no way he's missing fifty one And

3:56

he's like, mom, that has to be like a

3:58

mistake, right, And I'm like I

4:01

don't think So, so we go into

4:03

his thing and he's missing

4:05

fifty one assignments and then he got

4:08

them done in literally three days,

4:10

no joke. It was it was like, wait,

4:12

why wouldn't the teacher

4:15

or the school will

4:17

be like, hey, you know what, you're missing

4:19

three assignments. Let's get on this. Why

4:21

are we waiting till fifty one? I

4:23

don't know this is what I said to them, And they said,

4:26

look, you know, this is very common. And I said

4:28

to the teacher, I said, it's common for

4:30

a child to be missing fifty one

4:32

assignments. I don't

4:35

know, but that doesn't that doesn't

4:37

really sound like,

4:40

yeah, well I bowed, I bow down

4:42

that that that definitely Trump's

4:45

body by a long shot. Holy

4:48

crap, I did. I did

4:50

tell him that if he did it again, that

4:52

I would estrange him.

4:58

Is that an actual word? Like? Can you say to

5:00

a strange, I'm going to estrange you.

5:03

I'm going to estrange you. That's

5:05

what I said to Aaron. We're being and

5:08

making love, you want to strange?

5:11

Do you want to get estranged? Right now

5:14

I'm feeling I'm feeling like God,

5:19

let's just hop doctor Carl is not listening

5:21

to this intro. No.

5:26

I mean, I'm glad we can laugh about you

5:28

know how traumatic are estrangement

5:31

was exactly That's how we

5:33

deal with it. We're crying on the inside

5:36

anyway, Doctor Pumack,

5:39

he's a family psychologist. I know. Oliver has

5:41

already said that. And the

5:43

Hazel E. Read, Professor in the Department

5:46

of Human Development at Cornell University

5:48

and He also directs the

5:50

Cornell Legacy Project. His

5:53

book is called fault Lines,

5:56

Fractured Families and How to Mend Them. Really

5:58

interesting conversation that I learned

6:00

the most with sort of how much shame

6:03

comes with a lot of this, and how

6:05

quiet everybody is about it, how nobody really

6:08

talks about estrangement.

6:10

It's always it's always interesting to talk

6:12

to you

6:14

know, experts, doctor's professionals that

6:17

pertains to situations in your life,

6:20

so it's personal. You know, when when

6:22

we get to have these conversations, especially with doctor

6:24

Carl talking about estrangement,

6:27

relating it to what we've been through reading

6:29

his book, understanding

6:33

how we can sort of benefit from reading

6:35

it, get putting the tools into the toolbox

6:38

to then try to fix and

6:40

help some of these relationships, even

6:42

ours, you know well,

6:44

and also how you can mend you

6:47

know, there's obviously times and

6:50

circumstances that shouldn't be but

6:53

you know, when when is the right time to

6:55

look at it and want to reconcile or

6:58

come together? Is

7:01

it possible? You know, these are all the things

7:03

that we discussed. I

7:05

think this is one of my favorite episodes clearly

7:08

because it does relate to us in

7:10

a huge way, but also just learning

7:14

so much about how common

7:16

it is really And he even

7:19

said, it's so nice that people are becoming

7:21

more transparent about

7:24

their situations and their family when

7:27

they aren't in contact with a

7:29

family member or have had an event

7:31

that has led them to not speaking.

7:34

And I know it's interesting though, because sometimes

7:37

those things not necessarily get blown out

7:39

of proportion, but we stew in them, you know,

7:41

instead of communicating and maybe

7:44

realizing that there are ways

7:46

to reconcile if we can just open

7:49

up our mouths, communicate and

7:52

understand some of the differences

7:54

and maybe get to really realize

7:56

why we did, why, why we are

7:58

strange, what happened, have a dialogue

8:01

about it, and we talk about patterns

8:03

and we talk. There's a lot of stuff we touch

8:06

on in this episode, and I

8:08

have a feeling people are really gonna love this one.

8:10

So without further ado,

8:13

this is our Estrangement episode

8:17

with doctor Carl Pillmer.

8:25

We are obviously very

8:27

excited to talk to you, and as most people

8:30

know who listen to our podcast, are

8:32

both ourselves.

8:35

We're a strange from our father or

8:37

we like to just stay abandoned. We

8:40

were abandoned by our and

8:43

we've seemed to kind of it's

8:46

affected both of us differently, and

8:49

you know, something that is always carried

8:51

throughout our lives and everything that we do. And

8:54

so when we heard about your book and we heard about

8:56

you, we were like, we have to

8:58

interview Carl. So thank you so much for

9:00

joining us today. I'm so excited. Well,

9:03

it's such a pleasure. And you're right, it's an incredible

9:06

topic that affects way more people than

9:08

we think about, and it's a problem hiding

9:10

in plain sight that people just don't want to discuss.

9:13

Well, why do you give the statistics, you

9:15

know, because they were pretty unreal.

9:17

Actually, that's a great way

9:20

to start. And let me tell you that when

9:22

I started this project five years ago,

9:24

I was aware that it was an issue from

9:26

reading about folks like you who are well known

9:29

and the problems in their own family, and from talking

9:31

to friends. But really there's been

9:33

almost no research on it. And

9:35

the question was this is just you

9:38

know, one of those silent epidemics that everybody

9:40

talks about, or is it really

9:42

a serious problem affecting a lot of people.

9:45

And so one thing I did, you know, like went in

9:47

doctor and survey. So I did a true

9:50

random sample survey of the United States

9:52

asking people, in no uncertain

9:55

terms, is there a close relative

9:57

from whom you're estranged, that is, you have no contact

9:59

with them whatsoever. And to my

10:02

absolutely stun surprise, fully

10:04

twenty seven percent of the US population,

10:07

so that would translate to sixty seven million

10:10

folks, said

10:12

that, in fact they did have such an estrangement

10:14

in their own life. And

10:16

in almost every case, because I asked follow

10:19

ups, these weren't trivial. It wasn't just oh

10:21

I lost contact with him or her.

10:24

These were, you know, upsetting issues

10:28

for them. So often the numbers

10:30

don't speak for themselves, you know, but this time they

10:32

really do. This is a serious issue

10:35

for a lot of people,

10:38

as you yourselves know. Yeah,

10:40

there's something you said in the beginning of your

10:42

book. You talked about how you

10:45

yourself, having had experiences

10:48

with this, that you don't actively

10:51

discuss them because what you've

10:53

learned is that there's so many people involved

10:56

in every story and that it's not yours,

10:58

necessarily your story to tell. And

11:01

I thought that was really interesting. I think a lot of

11:03

especially people in my position or Oliver's

11:05

position, we don't engage

11:07

in the conversation because it

11:09

is just one side and you don't

11:12

really want to ignite any negativity

11:14

or you know, and you and and there

11:16

are feelings of shame that come with it, and

11:19

also like you know, or self

11:21

worth that come with being like, well, who really

11:23

cares about this part of

11:25

my life? And that and and how traumatic

11:28

it is. What I've learned is

11:30

that there's it's almost wild

11:32

how many people that it does

11:35

affect, and nobody feels

11:37

comfortable talking about it. And

11:39

I wonder what moved you to

11:41

actually spend the time

11:44

focusing on on it, you

11:47

know, the idea. Sometimes ideas,

11:50

I'm sure it's true with creative work, they feel

11:52

like they come out of the blue. But actually I realized

11:54

I thought that at first, But there was a long history.

11:57

I've been interested in my whole research

11:59

life in families after children

12:02

become adults. So, you know, we

12:05

have our kids home for eighteen years, but

12:07

we're going to have least at least twice

12:09

as much shared lifetime with them after

12:11

they're out of the half host. So

12:13

I was really interested in the nature and dynamics

12:16

of how families operate after everybody's

12:18

an adult. I drift a little

12:20

bit towards the dark side of families,

12:22

I must admit. So I've studied things like

12:25

the effects of parental favoritism.

12:28

I've even looked at domestic violence

12:30

or exploitation in these later life

12:32

families. So I was primed for it. But

12:35

I began a project maybe ten years

12:37

ago or twelve, interviewing

12:39

the oldest people in America, so eighty

12:41

ninety or one hundred about

12:43

their lives. And one key question we asked

12:46

is what do you regret? So I thought

12:48

when I asked very old people what you regret?

12:50

Or you know, how do you get to the end of life with

12:53

no regrets? I'll tell you one thing they said, by

12:55

the way, they told

12:57

me that if you get to ninety or one hundred and have

12:59

no regrets, you haven't had a very interesting

13:01

life. But still there

13:05

were and I expected big ticket

13:07

items. I expected affairs, I

13:09

expected shady business deals.

13:11

I was stunned by for how many very

13:14

old people and unresolved estrangement

13:16

was the most painful thing they could describe. And

13:19

it really hit me with one older woman in

13:22

Texas who broke down into tears,

13:24

began to pounder fist on the arms of her chair

13:26

and say this hurts like crazy and I can't do

13:28

anything about it. So I

13:30

started to look at the research literature,

13:33

and I was stunned that there was almost nothing.

13:35

Even the Handbook of Family Therapy, this

13:37

huge volume, doesn't have an

13:40

entry for you know, estrangement.

13:42

So I was sitting thinking about it, and basically

13:44

a mental list came one. People like

13:47

yourselves, who are very well known, experience

13:49

it, and we read about it. I've seen

13:51

it a lot, and there's no research

13:54

on it and not even a counseling

13:56

literature. What's wrong with this picture? So

13:59

I embarked. Done for me, it was really

14:01

the most sort of exciting

14:03

journey. It took me into some dark places,

14:06

but also some very uplifting

14:10

and positive ones too. It's it

14:12

feels it feels broad, you know

14:14

what I mean. Estrangement just feels very

14:16

broad. And you

14:19

know, yes, the research gives you statistics,

14:21

but you know, as you sort of talk about

14:24

in your book, it's not quite

14:26

there yet to really form

14:29

an actual right. You know. It's

14:31

almost like it's almost like the research starts

14:33

from people who have like marital

14:36

issues, like how to how to have

14:38

a fruitful relationship. The research

14:40

is more about how you grew

14:42

up, or the estrangement that you had is

14:44

affecting your relationship now rights

14:47

and then I guess the idea though, is to recognize

14:49

it and you know, and

14:52

fix it in a way, or you know, get

14:54

into your own psychology and discover

14:56

how that estrangement has affected your

14:58

life and where it has come from.

15:01

Well, there's two parts of it, is right.

15:04

There's there's the psychology behind

15:06

being estranged or being a

15:08

victim of someone, or there's

15:10

the or there's the person act

15:13

actively like

15:16

removing themselves, and

15:18

well there's the circumstances for estrangement

15:21

too, are so broad, and it's like

15:23

you talk about everyone has their story and

15:25

they stick to their narrative, and that

15:27

narrative becomes so embedded that

15:29

you're not going to knock them off of it, right

15:32

exactly. I mean the one thing because because what I

15:35

found is that when people want an apology

15:37

from somebody, you know, they

15:39

say, we'll all reconcile if you apologize.

15:41

Well, it turns out that they don't want an apology

15:43

for one thing that person did. They

15:46

want an apology for their entire childhood,

15:49

but for the kind of person that the other person

15:51

is. And what I you know, learned

15:54

also you're so right or that you

15:56

know, people get we all get invested in our

15:58

own narratives. So

16:00

so a person's narrative that

16:03

what he was doing to his brother was ordinary

16:05

teasing, and the brother's narrative

16:07

that it was sibling abuse. After

16:09

thirty years, it's never going to these

16:12

views are not going to align. And

16:15

so one of the key things that people who successfully

16:18

reconciled, because that was one thing I did that was

16:20

different. I interview a lot of people

16:22

not just who are estranged, but who'd gotten

16:24

back together the first time anyone had

16:27

done this after ten, twenty or

16:29

thirty years. This notion of letting

16:31

go of the past, I'm

16:33

building a new future together, as incredibly

16:35

hard as that was, you

16:38

know, is really key because what

16:40

someone said, I mean, but when people

16:42

would say, I realized that he or she wasn't

16:44

going to give up his or her narrative of what went

16:46

on anymore than I was willing

16:48

to. So it's that kind of complex,

16:52

you know, interior work that you have to do. I

16:54

think you're right. Yeah, And then specifically

16:56

when you are dealing with the person who are estranged

16:59

with, if you decide to try to reconcile.

17:01

I think he feels like you have to be open

17:04

to their narrative and trying to go deeper

17:06

and understanding where they came from.

17:08

I mean specifically to me, and I won't

17:11

get into all the details, but I have had, you

17:13

know, a reconciliation of

17:15

sorts with my father, but

17:18

you know, now getting into your book and patterns

17:20

right realizing that

17:23

it wasn't necessarily his fault. When

17:25

you go back into his family,

17:27

into his world and realize what his

17:29

dad did to him, and now I was

17:31

just part of that chain. You know,

17:34

there a compassion happens.

17:37

You know, I understand you more,

17:39

which allows me to soften

17:41

a bit in my position. And then

17:44

I wanted to talk about this too. But then your expectations

17:47

change the more you know. And one

17:50

of the things that you tap

17:53

on in the book is about expectations.

17:55

How we kind of form our own

17:57

expectations and how they can you

18:01

know. I wonder,

18:04

I sometimes feel like we

18:06

all form personal expectations

18:09

that if we hold on to them too tightly,

18:11

they'll just never be met. I

18:13

wonder, when you're researching

18:16

all of these different people, especially people

18:19

who have reconciled, do

18:21

you think maybe they let all the expectation

18:23

go. You touch on

18:25

a two huge points, and you

18:28

know, often social science science

18:30

is super complicated. But there were a couple

18:33

of straightforward things that really emerge

18:35

from this. One is I think if

18:38

you really want to reconcile, and Oliver, maybe

18:40

you did this is. I found

18:42

that people who reconcile ask themselves the

18:44

question, first of all, what's the least

18:46

I can accept? So let's

18:48

imagine that you're a grandparent

18:51

who's a strange from your daughter, and

18:53

you want to see your grandchildren. And

18:56

so you'd say, okay, if my daughter says

18:58

I can come see the grandchildren, my second

19:00

husband can, or

19:02

you know, I can come on weekends, or I can visit

19:05

them and can't stay at their house. I

19:07

may have to put up with X or Y. So often

19:10

people did kind of cost benefit analysis

19:13

and they decided what the least

19:15

they could accept in the new relationship

19:17

was. And second, you're right, I mean,

19:19

you know, I don't know all the details of your family

19:21

situation, but I'm sure you, like a lot

19:24

of adult children have, Oh, my

19:26

dad, even if my parents are divorced or to

19:28

have my back, ought to be there for me A

19:30

lot of people realize just what you said, the

19:33

person didn't have the capacity to do it,

19:36

and they dropped the expectation.

19:38

You know that cliche and that expectations or

19:41

disappointments waiting to happen. I

19:43

mean, it really is true. I think

19:45

also, I'm not quite sure

19:47

what your agents are. But when you

19:50

like, if you're thinking about a

19:53

person in their thirties and forties and a parent

19:55

in their sixties and seventies, it's

19:57

not like the other person's going to change these

20:00

expectations that I'll

20:02

get back into this. The other person becomes

20:05

X, Y or Z. So I think you hit the

20:07

nail right on the head. Is you

20:09

have to look in advance. What

20:12

can I accept about this? And is

20:14

a restore it albeit imperfect relationship

20:17

worth it? You know. The thing is is we started

20:20

write with the reconciliation, but I want

20:22

to start from the beginning of like the

20:24

feeling we can go back. It's like it's like

20:26

a Tarantino movie. You know, I'm

20:30

a nonlinear guy. It's funny because you're

20:32

more linear than I just want this interview

20:35

to turn into like Oliver's therapy sessions.

20:37

It's not every time Hoffman

20:42

he talk I didn't say the word Hoffman.

20:44

Well, you implied I went to the

20:46

Hoffman Institute, great

20:49

place. We

20:52

won't get into everything, although it's what

20:54

people want to hear, Kate. No.

20:57

So just it's interesting that you say that

21:00

because no one's changing. He's

21:02

not changing, but there's been an

21:04

acceptance in a sense. Our

21:06

relationship isn't much better

21:09

than it was before, but there's an ease to

21:11

it now. There's some texting here

21:13

and there, but I'm okay with that. You

21:15

know, it's something for me. Yeah,

21:18

you know, I think. And I'm curious about the contrast

21:21

too, because that's what I found is very

21:23

often when people said,

21:25

Okay, why did you reconcile? So you've been

21:27

estranged almost one hundred percent,

21:30

and really the other person I wasn't concerned

21:32

about he or she can go jump in the lake. I did

21:34

this for me. So one of my

21:36

favorite quotes from the study is

21:38

a guy who was estranged from his brother for

21:40

twenty five years called

21:42

him. They had sort of a semi reconciliation.

21:45

He said, I woke up the next morning realizing

21:47

it's the first time in twenty five years this hasn't

21:50

been in the back of my mind that I don't talk to my

21:52

brother. So some people

21:54

find it, you

21:56

know, like a weight off their shoulders kind of.

21:58

It helps them move head with their own

22:00

personal development. On

22:03

the other hand, if a relationship is dangerous

22:05

or abusive or damaging, people have to

22:08

make their own choice. Well, reconciliation

22:10

is almost selfish in a sense,

22:12

right, because it's for you. It's it's for personal

22:15

benefit in a way. It's it's what you said,

22:17

Oh, if once I reconcile and come to terms,

22:19

I feel better. Yeah.

22:23

You know what's interesting, if I can digress

22:25

briefly, what is interesting is that, you

22:29

know, in a much smaller scale

22:31

way, you know, like so it used to be that

22:34

folks who are well known, like you, these family

22:36

issues that would come out in the tabloids

22:38

or whatever, but everybody else would be more

22:40

private. Now with the advent of social

22:43

media this you know, if somebody

22:45

is having a difficult relationship for hither or her

22:47

parent, you know, all one thousand

22:49

of their Facebook fans now and

22:52

the other person has I think that same

22:54

feeling of an ability to defend himself

22:56

against it. Yeah, so you know, it's

22:58

both for you. It was on this enormous scale,

23:01

but even for you know, kind

23:03

of more regular folks. They're they're

23:06

seeing these things made public in a way

23:08

that really affects the whole dynamic.

23:11

You know, Oliver would like do something

23:14

public, like he did this post one

23:16

time. Well this is what I want to do. He was like abandonment

23:19

day and my dad wanted to. Like Katie,

23:22

she just like what, I don't

23:24

know what I do know. I'm glad you brought that up

23:26

because I was scared too, because Kate doesn't

23:28

want to good. But which

23:31

was so interesting because very often in

23:33

these estrangement there's an event like that,

23:35

this thing happens that. But

23:38

here's what's here's what's so interesting. The

23:40

reconciliation, at least personally,

23:42

came from this crazy

23:45

Instagram post where I said happy abandonment

23:47

Day. It was

23:50

it was a picture of my father's day. It was Father's

23:52

Day and it was a picture of myself,

23:54

Kate, my dad in nicer times, and I wrote happy

23:56

abandonment Day. That's my sort of dark sense of

23:59

humor. The

24:01

whole Dad issue has been Dorman. It makes

24:03

the point and got a hand to

24:05

you. But the whole Dad thing had

24:07

been dormant for years and years and years. It just wasn't

24:10

even a concept in our lives. And

24:12

then boom and ignited it. He's

24:14

back out in the press. He's disowning us,

24:16

saying he'd take Hudson name and they need

24:18

to lose their Hudson name. And that prompted

24:20

me to say, all right, let's go. I

24:22

got into contact with him, three

24:24

hour conversation and then boom.

24:28

That's where this came out of. At least

24:30

my reconciliation with my father came out

24:32

of that, that moment

24:35

of you know, but what's so interesting

24:37

is that I have my

24:40

relationship is so different.

24:43

Yeah, but you know that that's so classic

24:45

from other research we've done. You know, two

24:47

people can grow up in the same family, share

24:50

half their genes and have completely

24:52

different relationships. So with the parents, you know,

24:54

each person creates their micro environment.

24:57

You know. One thing I found in doing these interviews

24:59

is so I would I would start these interviews

25:02

with people who were a strange you know, because several

25:04

hundred people and they and

25:06

there were some who would begin by saying,

25:09

no, you know, it's just an awful person. This is

25:11

great. I felt free and liberated,

25:14

and by the time the interview was halfway through,

25:16

they were crying, you know, because there

25:18

are these basic fundamental biological

25:21

processes of attachment. Even if it's only

25:23

until eighteen months, you know, you

25:25

get attached to people in irrational

25:28

ways. So very often I would

25:30

have it seems to be more daughters of a strange

25:32

fathers would say, I want

25:34

it in my life and I don't know why, you know,

25:37

And the partial answer to why is that

25:40

you have early processes of bonding

25:42

and a family that you just can't completely

25:45

forget about, and that desire

25:47

is still they are, or at least that ambivalence,

25:49

like you know, kind of should I stay or should

25:51

I go? You know, is it worth making

25:54

an overture? And you

25:57

know, I think that is really the question is

25:59

oh or the other thing? I would add one

26:02

thing I would encourage somebody from these interviews,

26:05

you know, to ask themselves, is what's

26:07

in it for me? So here's one thing that people

26:09

did find and what family

26:11

therapists will also tell you that

26:14

the difference between estrangement and

26:16

just a negative relationship is

26:19

that things freeze. So I've

26:21

always thought of it like that scene in Sleeping

26:23

Beauty that I was obsessed with as a kid, you

26:25

know, or like and when

26:27

she pricks her finger on the needle, everything freezes,

26:30

like the d answers are midway and half step, and

26:33

it freezes that way for one hundred years. So

26:35

all this stuff goes on and you have no access

26:37

to it. You have no access to information how

26:39

the person might change, how

26:41

dynamics may have switched, and you

26:43

can't if you're in therapy or so, let's say,

26:46

there isn't the live material to engage

26:48

with. And so what a lot of people

26:51

said is, you know

26:53

the difference with just a little contact

26:56

was the person is then back and

26:58

you can, like

27:01

it could become kind of an engine for personal growth

27:03

right now, once again barring it being

27:05

too damaging or painful. So it really squirts

27:08

you up. But if you're protected

27:10

against that, having the person there so

27:13

you can't assess what's going

27:15

on is there were a lot

27:17

of people who found that very helpful. What's

27:19

interesting is, I mean, maybe

27:21

half of my girlfriends have complicated relationships

27:24

with their fathers. I was thinking about that the other day.

27:27

One of my best girlfriends also estranged

27:29

from her father, but

27:32

she never knew him, and then when she got

27:34

older, she went and looked for him.

27:36

And when she went to look for him. She found out

27:38

that he had died, and

27:41

I thought to myself, I'm like, I almost

27:43

like think that might be better than

27:47

having like this roller

27:49

coaster of sort of you

27:51

know they're there, you know that they like

27:53

have other families and that they you know,

27:57

if you just don't know, then you just don't

27:59

know. You know. It's sort of it's like

28:01

an empty space versus like a

28:04

fucked up complicated space exactly.

28:07

You know, I use the term

28:09

in the book someone Else developed ambiguous

28:11

loss you space,

28:14

you know, because a person is psychologically

28:17

present but physically absent, you

28:19

know. And so you know, I had a number of people

28:22

who said that, even though they wouldn't want

28:24

this to happen, it would have been easier if the person

28:26

had died because they would have known what to do, you

28:29

know. But as one person said, like, this

28:31

is no funeral, no closure, you

28:34

know, it just goes sort of

28:36

on and on. I do wonder and

28:38

nobody studied this, you

28:40

know, In terms of child relations what

28:43

the dynamics and the interaction of

28:45

a celebrity with those relationships

28:48

are. I mean, most people's

28:50

kids' lives aren't played out in public, and

28:56

the parents might not know how to adjust

28:58

to this, and in some case is may take

29:00

advantage of it. You know, it's

29:03

just talking to you. I was thinking, I wonder how these

29:05

dynamics, you know, really

29:07

might be different. Well,

29:09

you know, because you read like now

29:11

in your case it's different. But you know, the father's

29:14

a factory worker, the mother is a school

29:16

teacher, and the kid

29:18

becomes you know,

29:20

the sort of world famous celebrity. It's going

29:22

to have an impact on how parents

29:25

and children relate to one another. If

29:27

that's too far afield, no, no,

29:29

it's not. It's a great question,

29:31

I think. I think it's an interesting question too.

29:33

I mean, I I it's

29:36

an interesting one because you may be

29:38

surprised. I think that it's

29:40

not that different, or maybe I'm only saying

29:42

that because it's my experience. I

29:45

do think that as far as

29:47

expectation goes, you know, the

29:49

cliche is you just want what your parents

29:51

had, but maybe a little bit more. You

29:54

know, Kate

29:56

achieved that. But

30:00

I'm just saying there's an ex and and again

30:03

we came from the same stock, but

30:05

there's expectations that you put on yourself,

30:08

and sometimes that expectations will catapult

30:10

you, and sometimes it suppresses you. I don't think that's

30:12

what he's what he's asking is about. I

30:14

didn't get to know so

30:17

that relationship was saying that parent, that

30:20

parent daughter son relationship. You

30:23

know, when you're dealing with celebrity,

30:26

it can, it can. I

30:29

don't know what I'm saying. I don't know what you're saying. I'm

30:31

trying to figure what you are. Well, you fucked

30:33

me up. You interrupted me I was trying

30:35

to say. I think what he's saying is these sort

30:37

of people were interrupting

30:40

public. We're keeping

30:42

the sin so everyone can see. It's such

30:44

a public I'm

30:46

happy to keep it in because you'll see that you're

30:48

the one that I'm going to strange

30:50

myself from you. I'm going to strange myself

30:53

from you right now. It'll last like five

30:55

seconds and then they'll be like crying, I love you, I

30:57

love you. I

31:02

feel like I feel like you know.

31:05

Our parents, for just our

31:08

experience is probably really

31:10

different than I think a lot of people, whether it

31:12

be an highly kind of affluent house

31:14

households or celebrity households.

31:18

They really protected us from seeing anything. Yeah,

31:20

but overall, I mean I did

31:22

not like the celebrity aspect

31:24

of it. I hated when people would come to

31:27

the table and ask for their autograph.

31:29

It made me angry. You know. I was like,

31:31

I was like, get the fuck away. You know that that was

31:33

my feeling. Leave us alone, you

31:36

know. Or when you walk through the airport and

31:38

at the time, people would jump out and start photographing

31:40

you. I hated it. Now he's like, I

31:42

did not like it. Now he just dies

31:45

for Kate. Kate. Kate was

31:47

posing and

31:50

you know, she was like, oh my god, they're here. Yeah,

31:52

you should see some of my airport pictures when I'm

31:55

four. I just I hated it. I mean,

31:57

so, you know, but you know, I think you guys are saying

31:59

something that makes me think. You know that this

32:01

is one phenomenon that is

32:04

kind of an equal opportunity phenomenon.

32:07

Like we also in the

32:09

surveys that we did, we

32:11

for example, looked at so

32:13

we looked at differences in how many people reported

32:16

estrangements by race or gender,

32:19

by kind of socioeconomic

32:21

status, and there just really aren't any differences.

32:23

It's like an equal opportunity problem

32:27

that you know, as we've discussed, has

32:29

kind of as many origin. You know, It's like

32:32

the snowflakes are never the same. I mean, each

32:34

one, even though there's a

32:36

lot in common, each one is its own sort of

32:38

individual pathway, and

32:40

uh, you know right. It gets

32:42

played out on different platforms, but

32:46

really the basic dynamics are pretty similar,

32:48

I think. Yeah. I was kind of saying that in

32:50

an interview the other day, and someone asked me about

32:52

it because I had mentioned that I wanted to reach

32:54

out to my celebrities, and I mean my

32:57

celebrities, that I wanted to reach out

32:59

to my siblings. But

33:02

I was saying that celebrities, it's

33:06

no different the experience

33:08

or what how it manifests

33:10

or feels like than someone who's not a

33:13

celebrity. The idea that you

33:16

know, estrangement is estrangement. I

33:18

mean, abandonment is abandonment. Neglect

33:20

is neglect no matter where, it

33:22

doesn't discriminate, It comes, it

33:25

exists, it happens, and it

33:27

manifests itself differently in different people.

33:30

You're right too. I thought it's a

33:32

problem too that money can't sort of buy your way

33:34

out of Oliver.

33:43

This is my this is my

33:46

one of my favorite ads that we do. I

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34:13

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do you want to know that people are soon

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36:06

how often I use the beauty blender? Do

36:09

you want to know why?

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Because I'm about to go

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you are, yep,

36:19

I'm going to venture into the TikTok world.

36:21

And one of the ones that I've been doing, you know, I've been kind

36:23

of like seeing how it works and vibing out

36:25

and one of the things I've been doing with my makeup

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artist is, you know, when she's

36:30

doing my face, I'm just like

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doing weird posts, trying to figure out TikTok,

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and she's always using the

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beauty blender. And I have to say,

36:40

it's a makeup sponge and

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it's the number one cosmetic tool

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far as I'm concerned, I must

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loves to put on makeup. And that means

37:01

you too, Oliver Hudson, because

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we know you ain't shy putting

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on a little contour and some concealer. Let's

37:07

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38:22

exclusions apply. I

38:30

really think this is interesting the shame

38:32

part. I really do want to head

38:34

on the shame part because you're saying

38:36

something about social media, and it's something that I

38:39

love about what's happening now. I think so

38:42

many people come out and talk about

38:44

whether it be mental illness or alcoholism,

38:47

drug abuse, things that eats, eating

38:50

disorder, things that we've

38:53

hid behind the shame of

38:55

estrangement. Like, I'm curious

38:58

as to what your findings are are on

39:00

that I know my personal relationship

39:02

to it is, but on a whole what

39:06

kind of shame do you so you know

39:08

I've noticed it in myself. So what

39:10

people would say. Actually, one of the quotes in the book

39:13

is a woman said, you know, you

39:15

mentioned this to people at dinner, and they

39:17

treat it like you're talking about your hemorrhoids.

39:19

You know, it's just not something somebody is

39:21

going to ask any more questions about

39:24

the sense

39:26

of the other person, assuming

39:29

that there's got to be something wrong with

39:31

you. And that is particularly true of

39:34

parents. But also it's almost

39:36

like an involuntary like med magazine,

39:39

like what they're really thinking bubble over your

39:41

head, you know, like when the person says,

39:43

I just don't see my son anymore, you know, he decided

39:46

that he doesn't want to have anything more to do with us.

39:49

Most people have an ingrained

39:51

assumption that the person themselves,

39:54

you know, did something wrong. So I

39:56

think that's part of the shame. There's

39:58

also another really interesting

40:01

kind of popular social science fact. It's

40:04

true that parents care more. So

40:08

we know from and you probably know this from

40:10

your own kids. You've invested all this time

40:13

and energy and effort, and

40:15

if God for me and any of our kids so were

40:18

to say I don't want to see you anymore, you

40:20

know, you feel like you've lost all

40:23

of that. You

40:25

know that you've invested. So the one

40:27

thing I say to parents, by the way, is

40:30

be careful about how you treat your kids

40:32

in the sense that it's easier for them to

40:34

get out of the relationship than

40:36

it is for you. So

40:38

that's part of it. But so I think that's

40:41

part of the shame. And

40:43

we know that as people get older,

40:46

their social networks start to shrink and they

40:48

become more reliant on family members

40:50

for their day to day well being, and

40:52

so they start to feel the estrangement acutely.

40:55

I think what two folks

40:58

are doing is really bringing

41:00

this out into the open

41:03

and having people talk

41:06

about it as just something

41:08

that happens to a lot of people is very

41:11

liberating for others. I've gotten

41:13

that response, you know, to the book. Many

41:15

of my interviewees said it was the first time they

41:17

talked to anybody about it. So I don't

41:19

know, You're right. I guess the question

41:22

why people do experience it is

41:24

so stigmatizing is

41:26

an interesting one. You said something

41:28

that made me think, like, Okay, well,

41:30

if I'm a parent and my

41:32

child says I'm done with you,

41:34

I never want to see you again, my instinct

41:37

wouldn't be to defend my position.

41:39

My instinct would be to immediately

41:42

want to connect, right,

41:45

and I think that that's

41:47

where I would judge.

41:51

That's why I could I could see where

41:53

the stigma comes from, because immediately

41:55

if someone said, yeah, my son won't see me,

41:57

I'd I'm immediately like, what did you do? What

42:01

does that have to do with shame that

42:03

you would feel that. I get the shame. You're

42:06

a shamed because you could have done something right.

42:10

Shame. It feels like shame can stop

42:14

reconciliation, meaning you feel so much

42:16

shame that you are not even able

42:18

to reconcile. But I think you there's

42:20

a really good point that we don't you know that

42:23

that we think of someone else's shame as

42:25

a barrier. But I think you're right that people feel

42:28

sort of guilty, you

42:30

know, and ashamed and it and it sort

42:33

of blocks them. Kate, in response to what

42:35

you said too, I wanted to say that, you

42:37

know, my guess is that you're feeling

42:40

the way you do. If that happened that with one

42:42

of your kids means it's likely that

42:44

you won't become a strange for them. A

42:46

phenomenon I discovered in this research,

42:49

though, is some parents when

42:51

their child, you know, begins this process

42:54

of rejecting, them develop

42:56

what I call defensive ignorance.

42:59

So they've becomes so defensive

43:01

that they can't take in any new information

43:04

about the relationship. And that's

43:06

something that we know from social psychology

43:08

that people do in response to rejection

43:11

because it so affects our

43:13

internal image of our celph that we

43:15

protect it, you know, we kind of cluster around

43:18

it by being defensive. So one

43:20

of the most interesting things that I discovered

43:22

in doing these interviews is

43:25

often parents, in particular, we'd say right

43:27

away, we'd sit down and we talk. They'd say, I have no

43:30

idea what's happened. I just can't

43:32

understand. And then you'd hear

43:34

them describe a

43:36

litany of conflicts and the kids

43:39

written them a dozen letters to explain

43:41

it. And then they'll come around

43:43

and say, but I have no idea why this happened.

43:46

So sometimes people feel

43:48

ashamed enough that they completely

43:50

revert to the other side, become extremely

43:53

defensive. You'll see this

43:55

in social network in social

43:57

media groups where you know,

43:59

the kids have abandoned them and they've deserted

44:02

them, and adult children do the same thing that

44:04

they become very defensive, and it blocks

44:06

any reasonable thinking. One

44:09

thing I discovered and some family therapists

44:12

say, is that parents

44:16

think that their kids are angry,

44:18

hostile, or narcissistic.

44:21

For a lot of adult children, they're estrangements

44:24

are motivated by anxiety. They're

44:27

anxious. They're afraid that if they get

44:29

back together with mom or dad, they're going to be

44:32

pulled into their old way of behaving.

44:35

They're going to be sucked into a family role

44:37

that makes them like unbearably anxious,

44:40

or they're going to be criticized or belittled,

44:42

or their lifestyle choices are so even

44:45

more than anger, there's this undercurrent

44:47

of anxiety that keeps people a strength.

44:49

Yeah, the anxiety is real. That's

44:52

and let me I have a questions. Do you think is

44:56

is death the main catalyst

45:00

for getting back together,

45:02

for reconciliation meaning

45:05

morbidity, It's like, we're

45:07

all going to die, and what's that going to be like?

45:09

When dad dies? A

45:11

big motivation for why? You know,

45:14

Like they're kind of steps and when people

45:16

start to think about reconciling, there's

45:18

kind of a contemplation stage where

45:20

it just occurs to them and then they begin

45:22

to make real plans. A big

45:25

part of that contemplation stage is what

45:27

you know in the book I call anticipated regret

45:30

that people do start to think, as one

45:32

of my respondents said, I didn't

45:34

want to be that person who

45:37

left, you know, who left this world

45:39

with somebody holding a grudge against me or

45:41

me holding a grudge against them. So

45:44

I think I don't have date on this, but

45:46

I've gotten tons of anecdotal evidence,

45:48

and people are reconnecting during the pandemic

45:50

more than they were that

45:53

there's this sense that now may

45:55

be too late, So I think I agree

45:57

on I think it's a very strong motivation

46:00

for a lot of people

46:03

that they don't you know that it's

46:05

gonna you know, deathbed

46:07

reconciliations might not occur, and

46:11

you know, as they perceive a limited time horizon.

46:14

It's definitely a big part of why

46:16

people choose to reconcile. What is the

46:19

number one estrangement that you

46:21

saw in your research, Like was it parent

46:23

child or was it sibling sibling? You

46:26

know, interestingly parent child and sibling

46:28

were about equal, so

46:31

that it's like so there around

46:33

nine percent of the population

46:36

is a strange from a sibling and around ten

46:38

is a strange from a parent. And

46:41

then there are people for whom like if they've

46:43

grown up with cousins and then the parents

46:45

have a fight and they can't see them anymore, for

46:47

whom that is really painful. So I did

46:49

include other

46:51

relatives. Now there's good news there. I

46:54

mean, the ninety percent of parents

46:57

and children aren't a strange, but

46:59

still ten percent of people at

47:01

this very moment, you know, kind

47:03

of lying awake at night and looking up at the ceiling

47:06

and thinking about it is a pretty big I

47:09

have a lot of ten percents in my life. I'm left

47:11

handed. I'm I'm

47:13

what does that mean, I'm a strange You're

47:16

just strange? Oh,

47:20

now what about both? Do you find

47:23

that the people who are estranged from a parent

47:25

are also estranged from a sibling? You

47:28

know, it has really interesting dynamics

47:31

In some there's a big

47:33

issue when siblings have dramatically

47:36

different views, And as you've pointed out,

47:39

we think of siblings as growing up in the

47:41

same family, and really don't. I

47:43

mean, if you're three or four years apart, you've

47:45

had a very different family environment. So

47:49

I know a family, for example, there was a family

47:51

in the study. Dad was a

47:53

raging alcoholic for the first five

47:55

or six years and then got sober. So

47:58

the two kids had very very different

48:01

experiences. It does cause

48:03

so there's collateral damage here too,

48:06

and one of you know, so when a strangement

48:08

it's occur I talk about, it has these ripple

48:10

effects and sometimes siblings

48:14

don't want the other siblings, you know, to reconcile

48:17

if they're if three of them were really pissed it down

48:19

or mom, it can estrange

48:21

them from the siblings if that person decides

48:23

to get back together. You know. It's a cliche,

48:26

but that's why we call family systems, right,

48:28

I mean, each each you

48:30

know, pair in the family affects the other ones.

48:33

But yeah, I think there is a relationship there

48:35

for it's a guilt estrangement too. I mean, what if

48:37

we're in a situation where like I can't believe

48:39

that you're having a conversation or

48:41

that you are even connecting with this person?

48:44

How dare you you know, which you

48:46

do all the time. No,

48:48

I'm kidding, but that must happen, right, I

48:50

mean where it's sort of what you're saying.

48:54

Yeah, I know it causes We

48:56

also we actually included in

48:59

the study between forty and fifty

49:02

college students, because a lot of what's been written

49:04

about estrangement has been you know, people

49:07

in your folks age range, and

49:09

they feel incredibly caught

49:11

in the middle, like they really are part

49:13

of collateral damage. You know, students who would

49:15

say, I mean, I go home for the holiday and

49:18

the first thing is mom tells me what her

49:20

mother did that last week, or what her siblings

49:23

did, or so that it puts

49:25

incredible pressure on people who are

49:27

either trying to be peacemakers or

49:31

like you said, you know, they make the connection and

49:33

everybody else gets ahead about it. So, yeah,

49:36

it causes a lot of complications. What about

49:38

the study of it affecting

49:41

Like is it genetic? Like is estrangement

49:43

something that carries and could

49:46

it be genetic? It's a

49:48

really interesting question, and it's one

49:50

that we clearly don't have any data. There

49:53

obviously are genetic

49:56

predispositions in the different kinds of relationships.

49:59

So you know, there's some people who are

50:02

by nature more irritable or more

50:04

difficult or less conscientious, et

50:07

cetera. But you know, it's so hard

50:09

to tangle that from a family history

50:12

of this cultural pattern where a family

50:15

has just a family history of cutting

50:17

one another off and people learn

50:20

it. So that would be a great study

50:22

for the future. You

50:25

know, it feels more learned learn

50:28

right than actually there are schools of family

50:30

therapy that the first thing they would do with

50:32

you is doing kind of a genogram,

50:34

and I describe in the book how I did that,

50:37

and it made me realize the impact in

50:39

my grandparents generation. They all

50:42

thought my mom. Then my dad

50:44

died when I was an infant, and my mom had four

50:46

kids, you know, and was

50:49

struggling, and we had these

50:51

cousins and folks three or four hours

50:53

away who would have been really like kind

50:56

of real family to us. But

50:58

because people ninety years ago, you know,

51:00

argued over a house after the patriarch

51:02

died, we had no contact. So there are

51:05

these family themes without a question,

51:07

like you've described, it's also origin,

51:09

you know what I mean, Like we don't really

51:12

know where we come from on that side, to

51:15

be a sit down

51:17

and relate and even to feel that interconnection

51:20

that is that you can't really put your fingers on.

51:22

I mean, when I sat down with my dad and

51:25

looking at him across from the table, it

51:28

was crazy to see myself

51:30

and to almost hear my voice and he got

51:33

emotional because he saw himself

51:35

and me and it was really gnarly.

51:37

And we have we don't have We've

51:39

never had that with the Hudson's

51:41

side of the family to really feel that

51:44

side of us. See. But that's the thing

51:46

I would say about that too, that there's one thing that we

51:48

forget. So when people talk about

51:50

estrangement, is that really

51:54

the family. No matter what

51:56

you hear in the media and the press about

51:59

the death of the American family

52:02

or how we're in a post family area, for

52:04

most people, these are the most stable relationships

52:07

that they ever experienced throughout their entire

52:09

life course. One line of research,

52:11

for example, is when people look

52:14

at changes in social networks like

52:16

so you do a survey like who

52:18

are your closest associates? And then you do it again

52:20

ten years later. Everybody

52:23

changes except for your family, your spouse,

52:25

your best friends. But the ones whour is still

52:27

usually there are if you

52:29

have adult children and they're still there. If you have living

52:31

parents, they're still there. We still

52:35

rely on the family to like, you

52:37

know, what's Robert's frost line. When you go

52:39

there, they have to take you in. And

52:41

that's why people feel unmoored

52:44

when it goes away. It may not be conscious

52:47

sadness, but it's just not

52:50

that sense that here's this

52:52

latent. You know, in sociology we can

52:54

use this sociology term we talk about

52:56

social capital. You know, the same

52:59

way you have I'm a capital. You

53:01

have social capital, this reservoir

53:03

of people that if you needed it, they would

53:05

be there for you, even

53:07

if you don't talk to them that much. And

53:09

that's what estrangement really severs.

53:13

And that I think is why, you

53:17

know, like without preaching, it's good to

53:19

explore these connections. It's not just

53:21

help, but these rich family stories

53:23

and you know, like for your kids

53:26

where they came from if I can. One of

53:29

the best things my interview he said to me

53:31

that really stuck with me is

53:33

she was having a whole

53:36

lot of problems with her mother. Her mother was really

53:38

pretty much of a terrible person. They'd

53:40

been a strange for a long time. So

53:43

maybe after twenty five years

53:45

she was having kids and her kids were

53:47

getting older, and she said, you know, every

53:51

person has basically one hundred and fifty

53:54

years of history. Because you've

53:56

talked to your grandmother when she's seventy

53:58

five, and she talked to her grandmother

54:01

so you know, like there's an old person right

54:03

now who's talked to somebody who might

54:05

have lived somewhat after the Civil War.

54:07

She said, you don't want to break that connection.

54:11

That's or you know, this long

54:14

history and a family, so you

54:17

know that is an important point. I think you're saying

54:19

that you've got this vast, interesting array

54:21

of interesting people that,

54:23

even if they aren't used, you'd like somebody

54:25

to have access to you because it grounds you in

54:28

the world. I don't know if that makes sense. No, it does,

54:30

because you're also cutting your own

54:32

kids off from their their history in a sense

54:34

by not engaging or

54:36

reconciling.

54:43

I like talking about upstart. I think this is a really important

54:45

thing for a lot of people. We don't

54:47

learn about money in

54:50

school, and

54:52

we create a lot of debt, and we have

54:54

multiple credit cards too, and it's hard

54:56

to keep track of everything. And

54:58

that's what upstart does. So the

55:01

idea of this is this, if

55:03

you have multiple credit cards and

55:06

you're tracking multiple balances, due

55:08

dates and website logins, it

55:11

can get nuts. So upstart makes things

55:14

very simple with one monthly

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dot com slash sibling. You

56:48

know, the one thing that we know about families,

56:51

and you both of you have more than

56:53

one kid. I can't remember three, we both

56:55

have three, so that you know the one

56:57

thing which research shows us by the way that

57:00

two kids growing up in the same family

57:02

are no more similar to one another in personality

57:05

and other characteristics than are too

57:07

randomly selected kids. It's

57:10

like, even though you've probably noticed it,

57:12

like they're these huge within family differences.

57:14

So even though they share half their genes, they're

57:17

like really different. You

57:19

know, they sort of create their own

57:22

environments. And that's why I think it's important to send

57:24

a message on this topic that you

57:26

know, don't stand in a way. I think for people

57:28

of a sibling whose reconciliation attempts

57:31

are going on, I mean, their

57:33

memories may be very different, their sense

57:35

of who the parent is, their level of forgiveness,

57:37

you know, and it

57:39

may have to be a little bit of a

57:42

present company excluded, but

57:44

it might have to be a bit of a demilitarized

57:47

zone among siblings. You

57:49

know. This can be a tough

57:51

thing and one of the things that a lot

57:53

of the people who reconcile found is

57:56

that some kind of professional counseling

57:59

if you're in this contemplation

58:01

stage and do I really want to do this? Both

58:04

both some kind of formal counseling, not that the other

58:06

person's there, but just understanding

58:09

why do I want this? Is it realistic?

58:11

If I make an overture? Will I be rejected?

58:14

If I'm not rejected and

58:16

the relationship sucks, you

58:19

know, how will I respond to it?

58:21

So I think that kind of preparation and also

58:24

bringing in your other supporters. So I had a

58:26

bunch of people who were ready to

58:28

make that contact with a long historied

58:30

sibling or parent, and they engage

58:33

their spouse. So there was there

58:35

were some folks. I think of one in particular

58:37

where she was going to you know, each time she would talk

58:40

to her mother as they were reconciling, her

58:42

partner would be in the room and he could sense

58:44

when it was going beyond what she was going

58:47

to be able to handle. So

58:49

I'm bringing in your actressing, right,

58:52

He'd be like, Oh, I think we should make it another pot

58:54

of coffee? Should

58:56

I Should you go make another pot of coffee?

58:58

Yep? I should have exactly Oh,

59:01

you know my hemoroids. Honey, you're acting up because

59:06

you know the one thing I don't know if you've experiences

59:08

yet, you know, I get accused. And

59:11

there have been some you know, callings

59:13

to shows I've been on about like, well,

59:16

you know, why do I sort

59:18

of promote this reconciliation idea

59:21

And I'm really not. It's just what emerged from

59:23

the research why. I'd say one of the most interesting

59:25

things I learned is that people

59:28

describe the process of reconciliation

59:31

even if it didn't work out. So, even if they

59:33

tried and it didn't work out, as this

59:35

really sort of enormous engine

59:37

for personal growth, that it was

59:40

kind of like a challenge or discipline,

59:42

like it was the hardest thing that some of

59:44

them had ever did. The way you're describing it right

59:46

now, it's kind of like that. And

59:49

being I had a surprising number of people

59:51

to say, I mean, really, with my parents

59:53

getting back into some relationship with them,

59:56

if I can do that, I can do anything. So

59:58

there was this sense of life of

1:00:01

a major life challenge overcome,

1:00:04

even if imperfect. That made

1:00:06

them feel like really good about

1:00:08

themselves and their other relationships.

1:00:11

So and that was even in cases

1:00:13

where you know, they gave the person one more chance.

1:00:16

They tried that's actually,

1:00:19

if I can continue to juggernaut

1:00:21

on for one more minute, one of the

1:00:23

things that you might try, and

1:00:26

almost everybody who successfully reconciled

1:00:29

it. But they would often

1:00:31

offer one last chance. And

1:00:34

you might say, people would say to me, oh, no,

1:00:36

I've done it again and again, but they would offer one

1:00:38

last chance with very specific terms

1:00:41

like, look, if you want back in, here's

1:00:44

what has to happen, and there's one more chance.

1:00:47

So you can't criticize my husband, you can't

1:00:49

tell me how to raise my kids. I don't

1:00:51

want to hear your political beliefs. You

1:00:53

know, we'll get together three times

1:00:55

a year. They laid out very clear

1:00:57

terms for what it was going to be like, and

1:01:00

then they ended it if it didn't work, and

1:01:03

they protected themselves by those

1:01:05

really clear boundaries, and

1:01:09

that was really helpful because otherwise, the way you've been

1:01:11

describing it, things get all much. You know

1:01:13

what, Michael, One thing could be nobody

1:01:15

here is talking to the media about this during the period

1:01:17

of time that we're trying to make

1:01:20

this work. I mean, that's our restriction,

1:01:22

right, you know, more like whatever it would

1:01:24

be so mutually agreed upon this

1:01:27

can't happen if we're going to try this. And

1:01:30

that worked for a bunch of people, I mean, when

1:01:32

nothing works for everybody. But that was a pretty

1:01:34

good sperience and uncovering the

1:01:36

lessons in my life, you know,

1:01:39

looking at how to

1:01:41

break certain patterns. One

1:01:44

of the things that I found was

1:01:46

creating boundaries was one of the hardest

1:01:48

things for me, and how

1:01:51

liberating it was when I actually

1:01:53

allowed myself to have my

1:01:56

own boundaries right of how

1:01:58

to be treated or what I'm willing to accept

1:02:00

from any relationship or any friendship

1:02:03

or any love relationship. Right. And

1:02:06

I think that it directly does

1:02:08

correlate with not having any

1:02:10

understanding of boundaries with

1:02:13

that parental figure at all. I

1:02:15

think that's probably very true. Yeah,

1:02:17

And so when you said that that kind of rang

1:02:22

that that in itself just as a practice

1:02:25

that would probably, I would assume, be a huge

1:02:27

step for someone to be able to reconcile

1:02:31

with laying out those boundaries. It probably

1:02:33

would feel quite empowering

1:02:36

for them. Yeah, I mean, people

1:02:38

would say, you know, I'm hanging up

1:02:40

the phone if X happens, or

1:02:42

and often after someone's been estranged,

1:02:45

especially from a child, they're pretty willing, they're

1:02:47

compromised, so you know,

1:02:49

it can at least be worth an attempt, and then you don't

1:02:51

feel so guilty if you know, if

1:02:53

you've offered the person at least a chance. I

1:02:56

want to kind of just dabble

1:02:59

a little bit onto things that are a little bit darker

1:03:01

and harder to reconcile,

1:03:04

like any kind of physical abuse

1:03:06

or sexual abuse. These

1:03:08

are things that you know, we can sit here and talk

1:03:11

about parental disputes

1:03:13

that lead to abandonment or

1:03:15

insecurities or whatever

1:03:18

it is, but when you're dealing with actual

1:03:21

abuse, how does one

1:03:24

reconcile when they've

1:03:27

been violated? You

1:03:29

know, it was very interesting because from

1:03:32

our from our Bronze Scale surveys,

1:03:35

but we found far fewer people for

1:03:37

whom overt abuse was the

1:03:40

actual cause. More generally

1:03:43

negative harsh parenting, you

1:03:46

know, sort of bad parenting was a cause

1:03:48

that there were some but you know, but actually

1:03:51

people who said the reason why I can never

1:03:53

see this parent is because they were

1:03:55

abusive. Was certainly there,

1:03:57

but was smaller than I had expected.

1:04:00

I think in those cases there were

1:04:02

some people who reconciled. I

1:04:04

profile one woman in the book who was

1:04:07

whose father was a drug dealer. She had to

1:04:09

become an emancipated minor because

1:04:12

he was physically abusive, She

1:04:14

was sexually abused by

1:04:17

some of his drug dealing cohorts. She

1:04:20

went through a whole lot of stuff. He changed, he

1:04:22

reformed, he'd gotten better, had

1:04:25

gotten more stable, and she decided that she

1:04:27

wanted a relationship with him. But

1:04:29

she did an incredible amount

1:04:31

of work on herself, first understanding

1:04:34

why she wanted it, understanding,

1:04:37

you know, really ascertaining that he was not

1:04:39

like a dangerous person anymore. So

1:04:43

there are some people who found that it

1:04:45

was worthwhile. But

1:04:48

that's one where I say, you

1:04:50

know, the reconciliation isn't

1:04:53

for everybody. Obviously in

1:04:55

any situation there people are

1:04:57

better off out of your life, especially

1:05:00

if it's heavily traumatizing. I

1:05:03

wouldn't recommend that people

1:05:07

reach out to that kind of apparent unless

1:05:09

they really do have professional help, gain

1:05:11

understanding, have a lot of support. But there are

1:05:14

people who definitely want to do it, who've

1:05:16

had extremely extremely

1:05:18

adverse Chilbolt experiences, but say, I

1:05:20

still want this connection, but can you have reconciliation

1:05:23

and it's and without the other person,

1:05:25

meaning with a situation like that where there

1:05:27

is that kind of trauma and it's

1:05:29

not safe and there has been no reform

1:05:32

from the you know, the person

1:05:34

who has done the violating. Can

1:05:37

you have that reconciliation for yourself

1:05:39

to move forward? Can

1:05:41

I admit one weakness

1:05:44

of all this work? It is

1:05:46

the one thing I just, in the

1:05:48

interest of full disclosure, what my research

1:05:51

and the rest of the research litter literature

1:05:54

unfortunately has not

1:05:57

a lot of guidance for is

1:05:59

people who are stuck in an estrangement

1:06:01

and there really is no way out of it, like you know,

1:06:03

the other person simply refuses.

1:06:05

Either on one hand, the person really is an

1:06:07

awful person so you can't

1:06:10

have contact with them, but there's still psychologically

1:06:12

present for you, or

1:06:15

the person just is a complete stonewaller.

1:06:18

You know. The coping mechanisms for that are pretty

1:06:21

much the coping mechanisms for any other

1:06:23

loss. You know, to understand it, mourn

1:06:25

it as a loss, get through

1:06:27

it. I would agree with you all another. There

1:06:29

were a number of people who

1:06:31

said that cultivating an interior sense

1:06:34

of forgiveness even

1:06:36

without the other person, was liberating.

1:06:39

And there's a lot of research on forgiveness now

1:06:41

that does suggest that that's the case and

1:06:44

might be needed nationally as well

1:06:46

as in families at this point. But yeah,

1:06:49

so, but there's not a lot of guidance

1:06:52

or you know, help

1:06:54

for those folks. But I do think I would

1:06:56

agree that this sense of I

1:07:00

like the way you put it internally reconciling

1:07:02

with someone being open

1:07:04

to forgiveness for them has helped a lot

1:07:06

of people. But it's tough to know when

1:07:08

people are stuck in this and there's no willingness

1:07:11

or ability to reconcile, but

1:07:14

they're just are not yet a lot of good solutions.

1:07:17

How much are in laws?

1:07:20

And do in laws become a

1:07:23

source of

1:07:25

this of I'm

1:07:27

never speaking to my mother

1:07:30

or father again based on how

1:07:34

she's treating my husband or

1:07:36

vice versa. So you've

1:07:38

got the big global reasons

1:07:40

for estrangements like total value

1:07:43

and personality differences and these

1:07:45

harsh parenting, But there are two really

1:07:49

concrete things that

1:07:51

cause us an astonishing number of

1:07:54

estrangements. One of them is over money

1:07:56

and inheritance issues, where a whole family

1:07:58

is split apart. But what

1:08:00

I call in the book the

1:08:02

problematic in law, it's

1:08:06

just way more prevalent than

1:08:09

I had thought that people get poorn

1:08:11

between their family of origin and family

1:08:13

of marriage, and either the

1:08:15

partner deliberately isolates a person

1:08:17

from the family, or the family rejects

1:08:20

the partner, or you

1:08:22

know, their clashes of culture or

1:08:25

personality difference. I will say

1:08:27

one thing about those, Those

1:08:29

situations were more amenable

1:08:32

to reconciliation. You

1:08:35

know, either the person got lost

1:08:37

the partner who really was a bad person,

1:08:40

and the family was right and the person gets

1:08:42

reintegrated. Or it's one thing

1:08:44

where you know, look, if you're a

1:08:46

parent of an adult child and

1:08:49

you don't like your daughter in law or

1:08:51

son in law, you simply aren't going

1:08:53

to win that battle. It's

1:08:56

not a winnable battle there. It's not people

1:08:59

aren't going to say, oh, yes, I'll

1:09:01

get divorced so I can be around my mother. More

1:09:03

so that parents or people have

1:09:06

to adjust to this, you

1:09:08

know, in law. But yeah, it's

1:09:10

a big one. Is it

1:09:12

is a major precipitate. When

1:09:15

you said financial, It's one of the things that I've

1:09:17

been thinking about, you know. I

1:09:19

mean, there's nothing fun about

1:09:21

doing your will and doing your estate

1:09:24

planning right. And I've

1:09:26

been doing mine since I was eighteen,

1:09:28

since I got my first paycheck. I've always been on

1:09:31

my will. And

1:09:34

the other day I was thinking

1:09:35

about, I know, are

1:09:37

you at eighteen? I

1:09:40

had stuff that was important to me that if I died,

1:09:43

got it. Well, you've got things in the

1:09:45

will. No. No, I'm saying, when you're eighteen, like,

1:09:47

what do you like, like leave my white

1:09:49

jeeps? Yes? No, I had. Well,

1:09:51

I had some funds because of

1:09:54

because I've been working. I know, But who are you leaving

1:09:56

that to? Well? I left it at

1:09:59

that time. It was all my brothers

1:10:02

and now no longer belongs to

1:10:04

you. But one

1:10:06

of the things I was always

1:10:08

like, and this just happened to me recently,

1:10:10

where I was like thinking about

1:10:13

mortality more. My friend's parents are

1:10:15

passing away and it causes

1:10:17

so much friction, and not only that, you can't

1:10:19

mourn a parent and it literally

1:10:22

can break up a family. And oh,

1:10:24

it's so true. I don't know why

1:10:27

people don't tell everybody

1:10:29

ahead of time what the plan is. So

1:10:31

here's the problem with wills. Wills caused

1:10:34

so many problems because,

1:10:37

first of all, you're right, people I

1:10:40

found in these studies people

1:10:42

had secret wills. Everybody

1:10:44

thought that they were getting everything evenly, and the

1:10:46

entire business was left to a brother. It

1:10:48

just destroyed the family. But the

1:10:51

problem with wills too is not everything

1:10:53

is divisible, right, But like you have three

1:10:55

or four kids, one is

1:10:58

they leave everything to everybody equal. But what

1:11:00

if somebody loves the lake house? The

1:11:03

only way it could be divided equally would

1:11:05

be to sell it and give folks the

1:11:07

money. Or people fight

1:11:09

about things like this. You know that grandfather

1:11:12

clock brought over from Germany,

1:11:14

or or the chip Thanksgiving platter

1:11:16

that served every family's Thanksgiving turkey.

1:11:18

Those can't be divided.

1:11:21

So I totally agree with you, And there are

1:11:24

programs that can help people to think this out,

1:11:26

really talking with your survivors

1:11:29

and heirs as to what they're going to get, who's

1:11:31

going to get what. It's astonishing

1:11:34

how long lasting these

1:11:36

fights over wills and inheritance are. And

1:11:39

it's not just it's not just with already

1:11:42

negative relationships. It's

1:11:44

actually with relationships that were pretty

1:11:46

good. It's so psychologically,

1:11:48

you know, you're grieving already and then

1:11:51

these things become whom I'm loved more, you

1:11:53

know, it's insane. Yeah, And

1:11:55

it also I mean I think that's where it's

1:11:58

sort of revealed, which is like you

1:12:00

you have all of these relationships. You kind

1:12:02

of in the back of your head, You're like, you,

1:12:05

you know, it's the family dynamic that is

1:12:07

could be at some point, you know,

1:12:09

going to blow up at any second, but then

1:12:11

all of a sudden, one parent passes

1:12:13

away. You read the will and

1:12:16

it like validates everything

1:12:18

that one person would have felt, and then

1:12:20

it could tear you know, a

1:12:22

family apart. I felt

1:12:25

like, I feel like that

1:12:28

is a very interesting thing

1:12:31

for people to get comfortable doing.

1:12:34

Is talking about saying to

1:12:36

your kids, Hey, guys, I know this is

1:12:38

weird, but let's go around

1:12:40

the house and if I died

1:12:42

tomorrow, what do you really want?

1:12:46

Let's fight about it now while I'm here.

1:12:50

You know, guys, we're

1:12:52

all going to be dead. Pick

1:12:54

what you like. The

1:12:57

folks you'll find who are really resistant to

1:12:59

that discussion are your kids. I

1:13:02

mean, we've tried it because we have adult children

1:13:04

and nah, no, I you know, I don't

1:13:06

want to hear about it. But it makes an older

1:13:08

parent feel more secure

1:13:11

totally, I would think so.

1:13:13

So. The one thing people can really do, and

1:13:17

in both especially in the money situation,

1:13:20

I had many people who were estranged as

1:13:22

a result of that, I said, really, we should have brought

1:13:24

an a mediator. I mean, which

1:13:26

is something you can you know, people like

1:13:29

again it's a little bit of the shame they don't want

1:13:31

to do it, but many people

1:13:33

said, you know, this would have been prevented, this

1:13:35

ten year estrangement fighting

1:13:38

over the family business, if we've brought in

1:13:40

an objective third party. I

1:13:42

mean in both you know, I think the

1:13:44

one thing like and I argue this in the book.

1:13:46

It's based on some psychological research

1:13:49

that if it's around and

1:13:52

in law, if it's around inheritance,

1:13:55

the best thing to do is to really sit

1:13:57

and think, to do the imaginary

1:14:00

exercise. What would an independent

1:14:02

third party say about the situation, who

1:14:04

had everybody's inferences in mind? If

1:14:08

the family can even begin to discuss

1:14:10

it that way of like, you

1:14:13

know, okay, what because again

1:14:15

we talked about the power of our own narratives,

1:14:17

also writing, don't leave Oliver

1:14:20

in control of any money. That's

1:14:22

what a third party.

1:14:25

Don't let Oliver be the one making

1:14:27

any money decisions. Why not

1:14:29

Vegas? You go to Vegas and you put it on black

1:14:35

there's this really great investment, double

1:14:37

it up. Yeah, I

1:14:39

think that's go be right now. People make these

1:14:42

things. Now that's true.

1:14:43

I see for

1:14:45

me it would be blacktack. But yeah,

1:14:48

you know, no, I feel like I could double my

1:14:50

retirement income in my Don't

1:14:53

let him. Don't let him get in there, Carl,

1:14:56

don't let him convince you. Carl'll

1:14:58

do it doing

1:15:00

it Okay. So when you guys

1:15:02

so great now, so your your relationship

1:15:04

seems really terrific. You know, well,

1:15:07

speaking of non estrangement, no, yeah,

1:15:09

it's been good. But it's interesting though, because

1:15:13

there's no estrangement. But there was a period of time

1:15:15

where we were not connecting or talking

1:15:17

much at all just because of our lives.

1:15:20

Were just doing different things, you

1:15:22

know, but there was no resentment, there was no estrangement.

1:15:25

It just it just was not connected.

1:15:27

Well, that's a piece of estrangement to this

1:15:29

drifting apart, because that is a pattern,

1:15:31

at least in our culture, that you know, you're close to

1:15:33

your siblings as you're growing up, then

1:15:36

you have what could be referred

1:15:38

to as intimacy at a distance, and

1:15:41

then people kind of come back together first

1:15:43

when they themselves have kids, but then when parents

1:15:46

get sick and and

1:15:49

and you know, I do feel that people

1:15:52

don't realize that you have to do some maintenance

1:15:55

on these sibling relationships often or they

1:15:57

can easily go by the wayside as people get

1:15:59

crazy. Point and as I've had many

1:16:01

older people tell me in my studies, nobody

1:16:03

really knows you as well as your sister, like

1:16:05

you're going to or your brother

1:16:08

and you're going to want them

1:16:11

around later on in life. So you

1:16:13

know, you know, I think that's the estrangement thing I

1:16:16

see in the book that I

1:16:19

wish people in their family lives

1:16:22

had what was here in

1:16:24

Central New York. You know, we had the Eroquoi nation,

1:16:26

which had the seventh generation principle,

1:16:28

like act like what you're going to do now

1:16:31

is consider how it will affect

1:16:33

seven generations hents. People

1:16:35

make these hot headed decisions in families

1:16:37

and don't think, gee,

1:16:40

would I like to have these people around their years

1:16:42

from now, or would I like my kids to know their cousins

1:16:45

or to know their grandparents, or

1:16:47

you know, to have my kids have an uncle or an

1:16:49

aunt. So that's that's

1:16:52

something I might leave listeners

1:16:54

with, you know, is to think about what

1:16:57

the thing about like long term consequences

1:16:59

of these things doing. There's one thing

1:17:01

that we didn't mention that maybe would be worthwhile

1:17:03

if you feel like I've been, well,

1:17:06

I've been, you know, because

1:17:08

I work in this area. It's

1:17:10

been impossible to avoid endlessly

1:17:14

people you know, describing to me

1:17:16

the political rifts in their own families.

1:17:19

And I would have prior,

1:17:23

I mean I sort of have a pre and a post.

1:17:25

I mean, prior to the most recent

1:17:27

of hims. I had pretty clear

1:17:29

advice that. But what a lot

1:17:31

of people find works is

1:17:34

creating kind of a political demilitarized

1:17:36

zone, operating on

1:17:38

a simple principle, can I possibly

1:17:40

change this person's mind. If

1:17:43

there's no possibility of changing the person's

1:17:45

mind, then simply

1:17:47

avoid it. I mean, you know, talk about

1:17:50

what you're binge watching, and it takes

1:17:52

some discipline, but people can be

1:17:55

very firm, like, you know, if we start

1:17:58

to talk about the election, I won't stay.

1:18:01

And it's really worked for a lot of people if they're

1:18:04

you know, just this notion. There's some things

1:18:07

that you just can't talk about, and this is

1:18:09

one of them. And people still want to love their families.

1:18:12

One thing we know it look like about human beings

1:18:14

and all of our relationships, Opposites

1:18:17

don't Opposites may attract

1:18:19

but they don't make lasting relationships. So we

1:18:21

tend to like people who are pretty much like ourselves,

1:18:24

and especially in terms of core values.

1:18:27

And that operates in families, so

1:18:29

that you can be friends with somebody

1:18:32

who doesn't share your values. But it's

1:18:34

effortful, you know, it takes

1:18:37

planning and effort and reminding

1:18:39

yourselves that you

1:18:42

know you love this person as a kid or whatever.

1:18:44

It's challenging. But you know, I

1:18:46

haven't found any recommendable strategy

1:18:49

in families, you

1:18:51

know, other than you

1:18:54

know, avoidance, if it's at all possible.

1:18:56

Before we head out, I do want

1:18:58

to end on a speed round. Who's

1:19:00

your celebrity crush?

1:19:03

I would love to end with one like

1:19:06

what would be? And I know this is so hard

1:19:08

because there's a lot but to all of our

1:19:10

listeners. We have a lot of listeners who

1:19:14

you know, I mean they write in all the time. They talk

1:19:16

about their connections with their family, whether they're

1:19:18

positive ones, their siblings or you

1:19:20

know, challenging ones. What would be the

1:19:22

one piece of advice

1:19:25

that you would give to our listeners

1:19:27

about their you

1:19:30

know, family or if anybody's you

1:19:32

know, in the situation of trying

1:19:34

to reconcile I would encourage

1:19:36

people in the following

1:19:39

situation to think carefully if

1:19:41

you're a strange from someone after years

1:19:44

or decades, and that person once back

1:19:46

in and it's not a dangerous

1:19:49

or damaging situation. If

1:19:51

someone is asking for one last chance,

1:19:54

I would give it to them. And if someone

1:19:57

offers you another chance, I would take

1:19:59

it. I think in general,

1:20:01

for people, it

1:20:03

helps them to have a certain

1:20:06

kind of family connection, no matter

1:20:08

how tenuous. It helps

1:20:10

make them feel like their life is well lived

1:20:13

and like they are a

1:20:15

complete person. So it may

1:20:17

not work out, but I would argue for almost

1:20:19

anyone if you're in an estrangement, ponder

1:20:22

giving it a chance, under protected

1:20:25

conditions, understanding your boundaries,

1:20:28

etc. You know, I've talked to hundreds

1:20:30

of people who didn't regret that choice, even

1:20:32

if it didn't work out, And I just think,

1:20:35

look, I mean, our world is

1:20:37

filled with divisions and difficulties

1:20:39

politically and socially. The one place

1:20:41

in which we have some control is in our families,

1:20:44

and why not take that opportunity if you possibly

1:20:47

can. Thank you, Carl.

1:20:49

Your book is called fault Lines, Fractured

1:20:51

Families and How to Mend Them. Thank

1:20:53

you so much for coming on and talking to you guys.

1:20:56

Bill didn't so great. Bill didn't get your first

1:20:58

celebrity crush. There

1:21:00

we are my first first celebrity

1:21:03

crush. It might be Mary

1:21:05

Anne. I

1:21:09

mean that would be a possibility,

1:21:11

would I think that might have been one

1:21:14

of the

1:21:16

earliest ones. And then when I got old enough

1:21:18

to really know, it was totally supiller

1:21:21

in. Oh, yeah,

1:21:23

this has been really amazing. I loved

1:21:25

it. Thank you so much. I feel I've known

1:21:28

you for a long time. I know, I just really

1:21:30

admire you, thought about it, considered it,

1:21:32

uh you know, and are working through it. It's really

1:21:35

great, awesome kind of models for yes,

1:21:39

all right, thank you, Carl Sibling

1:21:44

Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson

1:21:46

and Oliver Hudson. Producer is Alison, President,

1:21:49

editor is Josh Wendish. Music

1:21:51

by Mark Hudson aka

1:21:54

Uncle Mark. If you want to show us some love, rate

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