0:00

There's. Another part, Guess you should be

0:02

listening to Ted Health, a podcast from

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the Ted Audio collective. Join house doctor

0:07

Shosanna Under Lighter as she introduces you

0:09

to leaving health experts and breaks down

0:11

the health questions you didn't know You

0:13

had learned more about the way your

0:16

body works and the newest insights changing

0:18

the medical world. Like what a Smart

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Brahmins for better heart health Three ways

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how we can all live healthier lives.

0:27

Find Ted Health wherever you listen to

0:29

podcasts. This

0:32

is a Cbc podcast. This

0:36

week on routine checkup, we're joined

0:38

by Emmy, a master's student and

0:40

researcher focusing on psycho social support

0:43

and interventions for people living with

0:45

chronic illness. And infectious disease. Let's

0:47

talk about. All

1:07

right well as we we play with you

1:09

for an enemy and we humans who to

1:11

see. By the way I love Nashville like

1:13

what it would have. Been. I've

1:16

you don't think any I have. I've

1:18

never heard a bad word spoken. It's

1:20

awesome! It's so fun! Is

1:23

we like the Bachelor and bachelorette?

1:25

Party. Know how the of the world it's

1:27

a hot it's a highly get yeah you're going

1:30

to rob about Jersey, bachelor Party and usher. Do

1:32

you get tired of that shit like. Very

1:34

exhausted aware. Now there's like there

1:36

was this whole thing about a

1:38

couple months ago. they saw one

1:40

of the me like. Bachelorette:

1:43

Attractions as these like pedal taverns

1:45

that arrive on nation roads the

1:47

and they like recently tried to.

1:50

Stop. That by like not allowing

1:52

moving vehicles to like serve alcohol

1:55

because I guess that other sort.

1:57

of our and you actually i were able

1:59

to stopped the vehicles from being on the

2:02

road for whatever reason it was. And so

2:04

now people just like viciously pre-game it. So

2:06

they're like throwing off off the sides of

2:08

the truck. So it's even worse. That's

2:11

why I love Nashville so much. You

2:15

know what to remind me? It sounds

2:17

like the way that people who live

2:19

in Austin feel about South by Southwest,

2:21

except imagine that South by Southwest happened

2:23

all year round. Well,

2:25

I think Austin is kind of gradually

2:27

becoming more like that all year round.

2:29

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Um,

2:32

but we're not here to talk about

2:34

our favorite American party cities. Um, we're

2:36

actually here to talk to Emmy about

2:38

her, her work and her line of

2:40

research. Uh, Emmy, you are a master's

2:42

student. You are a researcher. Your focus

2:45

is right up our

2:47

alley. Um, focusing on psychosocial support and

2:49

interventions for people living with chronic

2:51

illness and infectious disease. Um,

2:54

give us a little bit of an insight. You know, what

2:56

are you taking your masters in? What is, what is your

2:58

life? You know, this is, uh, you're you've,

3:00

you've, you've taken a, you've taken a break out of

3:02

your day in the middle of exams, just to shoot

3:04

the shit with us. So what, you know, what kind

3:07

of exams are we looking at? Yeah.

3:09

So, um, I am a

3:11

master's student under the medicine, health and society

3:14

department. And so it's like this huge interdisciplinary

3:16

program we have here. Um, so some people

3:18

are doing it because they're interested in health

3:20

policy and like health economics. I'm

3:23

a little bit more on the epidemiology side, but

3:25

I find everything else really interesting. Some

3:27

people are like going into film. So

3:29

it's a, it's a really cool program,

3:31

um, that kind of spans multiple, uh, disciplines

3:34

in that way. Um, so this

3:36

week, the only exam I have left is bio.

3:38

Um, so that's definitely a biggie, but I'll get

3:41

through it. Um, and

3:43

I just finished like social psych. So, um, yeah,

3:45

I kind of sit in that space of like

3:48

the map side of health research. Um,

3:50

cause I'm really into like looking at

3:52

these big, you know, data sets and

3:54

then kind of finding information through that. Um,

3:56

so like for me, I primarily take

3:58

like statistics. but I also

4:00

take I'm taking gender sex and medicine next

4:02

semester. So it's like a cool, you know

4:06

Overview of the health field what

4:08

what school is this? Vanderbilt

4:10

University cool. Very cool. Well, I'm curious

4:12

about the the film piece Why why

4:14

would somebody go into this program then

4:16

and then go into film? Yeah,

4:19

so my friend who's going into film is

4:21

she actually is doing the undergrad medicine health

4:23

and society And so she's like

4:26

a double major with with the film studies

4:28

department And I think she's really interested

4:30

in like going out into the

4:32

world and then creating like health-based documentary projects

4:34

I know she did like a short film

4:37

on campus. So all

4:39

sorts of things that you can you know, kind of

4:41

it's really cool I love that. Yeah, and you know

4:43

it like it's it's like those Those

4:46

types of things are so When

4:48

you hear those two things you go. Well, that's a

4:50

that's weird like kind of those Kind

4:52

of like podcasting in hell. Well, hey

4:56

We do with this and it's exactly that like

4:58

that those things are so important because as People

5:02

who have the lived experiences patients,

5:05

you know, there's there is I was

5:07

just at a conference in in Vancouver

5:09

a couple of weeks ago that was put

5:11

on by the the children's Children's

5:16

Healthcare Canada and they had

5:18

a whole like they had a whole breakout

5:21

session dedicated specifically

5:23

to the power

5:25

of digital storytelling for Patients

5:29

and you know when I was there I was like, oh

5:31

interesting. That's like essentially what we've been doing with with sick

5:33

boy But this

5:35

was a group of people that literally go

5:37

into health sectors

5:39

go into you know hospital like

5:43

You know provincial hospital services and

5:46

they they they run

5:48

trainings for the for

5:50

people within these services to

5:53

facilitate a Digital

5:57

storytelling sort of like project

6:00

with patients, right? So, you know, the

6:02

example could be like a, they

6:05

go into a pediatrics hospital and they train

6:07

someone there. And then that person finds one

6:09

of the patients in the hospital and goes,

6:12

Hey, you have a really fascinating story. I

6:15

want you to tell this story and

6:18

we'll work together in like framing this with you

6:21

and we'll film it and we'll

6:23

put together this little, you know, mini documentary.

6:25

That's like a five minute piece that will

6:27

be of your story and your experience of

6:30

this thing that you went through. And

6:33

they'll, you know, they'll do this

6:35

whole like broken down process

6:37

of making this little piece of digital

6:40

storytelling with this patient. And

6:43

then the guy who started

6:45

this whole thing, he's done a bunch

6:47

of research and has published papers on

6:52

this exact work. And basically

6:55

they're trying to track like the

6:57

sort of tangible takeaways

6:59

from this type of project, which

7:01

lead to like

7:03

patient empowerment, right? And,

7:05

you know, we've talked about this on the show a number of

7:07

times, but like empowered patients, patients

7:09

who feel empowered, it just leads to

7:11

better health outcomes. And so when you

7:13

look at like film and

7:15

it's place in health and

7:18

research, it might not really

7:20

click right away, but if you really start to

7:22

like look into the findings and the research that

7:24

people actually do with this type of thing, it's

7:27

so valuable. Well, I'm just going to

7:29

say, Jared, it might not click right

7:31

away until you just said what you

7:33

said. And now it clicks. Yeah. Well,

7:35

to that point, like, Emmy, I'm kind

7:37

of curious, like what is, you know,

7:39

speaking of research, what

7:42

are the areas of research that like are really

7:44

kind of interesting you

7:46

right now and, you know, what, what sides

7:48

of things are you like wanting to kind

7:50

of sink your, sink your hands into to

7:52

get involved with as you go through your

7:54

career? Yeah. So,

7:57

I mean, like we've kind of covered, I'm a

7:59

little bit early in my career. career. I'm only 22. So

8:01

which is actually crazy to say I just turned 22. So

8:03

I feel like a knife through

8:05

my heart, you know, that's like the first birthday

8:07

of just getting old. I got an

8:10

email from AARP yesterday and it actually like

8:12

ruined my entire

8:24

week. So I've been sitting on

8:26

that. But anyway, so my

8:29

first like I guess formal research experience,

8:32

I did a year long NIH undergrad

8:34

training program in HIV prevention science

8:36

and trans health. And so

8:38

that was super like, interesting

8:40

for me to understand like the mechanisms

8:42

of epidemiology and like global health research.

8:45

But what was funny was, I

8:47

went in like super interested, I wanted to

8:49

know about HIV. And then when I'm looking

8:51

at this data set, I was just like,

8:54

drawn to like all of the

8:56

social aspects and questions that they were

8:58

asking. So my, my paper

9:00

ultimately ended up focusing on

9:02

family support and safety for

9:04

women living with HIV. So

9:06

yeah, it was, it was

9:08

really cool, really interesting stuff. And I had a

9:10

lot of friends in the program as well, who,

9:12

you know, kind of opened my eyes to different

9:14

things. But that's when I really

9:17

started to hone in on this, like, social

9:19

epidemiology, which I know is like

9:21

this convoluted phrase that I think

9:23

doesn't quite make sense in people's heads immediately.

9:25

But it's basically analyzing

9:28

social networks, social life, quality

9:30

of life and how that impacts health and vice versa.

9:33

So I'm currently planning and

9:36

writing a thesis on tuberculosis

9:39

and medication adherence and kind of how stigma plays

9:41

a role in that. And then

9:43

in this weird, I know we've

9:46

kind of mentioned it already, but in this

9:48

weird way, I found myself studying

9:50

pediatric to adult health care transitions, and

9:53

just had this like brainchild one day, I brought it to

9:55

one of my mentors, and we kind of went

9:57

full throttle on that. So I'm in the middle of recruiting

10:00

for that study. So yeah, I

10:02

mean, it's pretty broad, but it

10:04

kind of boils down to like social

10:06

life. Everybody's, you know, the

10:09

way they think about illness and the

10:11

stigma associated with illness and then how

10:13

that impacts their outcomes. Where

10:16

did the piece on TV

10:18

come from? And

10:21

what are some of the, does

10:25

that pertain to TB in the

10:28

United States, in North America, globally?

10:31

Because maybe I'm wrong. I

10:34

feel like I have the sense that rates of TB

10:36

are quite low in North America, but maybe I'm wrong

10:38

about that. Oh yeah, so

10:40

I'm so glad you asked. So

10:43

TB is essentially considered eradicated in

10:45

North America. I'm using air quotes,

10:47

but so every once in a

10:49

while we'll get like a case

10:51

pop up here and there. Some

10:53

people have like latent TB, so

10:56

they technically have the infection, but

10:58

they're not symptomatic. So usually

11:00

we just hit them with like three months of antibiotics

11:02

and then move about our day. But

11:04

globally it acts very different. TB

11:07

for a very long time was the

11:10

leading cause of infectious disease worldwide

11:12

or of death from infectious disease

11:14

worldwide. It only bumped

11:16

down to second post COVID, but they're anticipating

11:18

that it'll jump back up. 1.6

11:21

million people will die this year despite

11:23

it being completely curable. So for those

11:25

reasons, I think that's why I was

11:27

drawn to TB. It's kind of considered

11:30

like a holy social illness

11:33

in that treatment patterns, treatment

11:35

adherence, outcomes are all

11:38

socially determined, but in the

11:41

same way, like health determines social

11:43

outcomes. So it's like this really interesting interplay

11:45

that kind of covers everything that I'm

11:47

studying. So

11:49

yeah, it's kind of

11:52

crazy. I'm looking particularly in

11:54

South Africa, but there is

11:56

like an insane amount of

11:58

TB globally. Yeah. What

12:01

are some of the

12:03

social factors that do

12:05

influence or I

12:07

guess do end up with the

12:09

fact that TB kills still 1.6

12:13

million people globally? Yeah, this idea

12:15

of stigma attached to adherence. I've

12:18

never thought about that. I've never heard about

12:20

that. It's very fascinating to hear you kind

12:22

of just rush over it. You've

12:26

had that. Yeah, I guess, but I've never

12:28

thought about it that way. It

12:32

is that, but I've never thought about it

12:34

from a perspective of like, oh, literally

12:37

the stigma has affected my

12:39

ability to adhere to my

12:41

treatment. Right. That's

12:45

a really wild thought. I know.

12:48

And it's crazy

12:50

that there's a great

12:53

amount of researchers dedicated to this,

12:55

but compared to like other

12:58

similar research topics, it is relatively

13:00

under-researched. So to answer

13:02

the first question, in public health,

13:04

we kind of have these spheres that we call

13:06

the social determinants of health. And

13:09

so that's basically anything non-biological

13:11

that determines health. So

13:14

things like socioeconomic

13:16

status in some places,

13:18

race and ethnicity. And

13:21

so stigma is really rarely thought

13:23

of as a determinant in its own

13:25

right. I would say within the

13:27

past few decades, there's

13:29

been like the shift to think

13:32

about mental health largely as a

13:34

determinant. And then usually they kind

13:36

of lump stigma in there. But

13:38

we're trying to show that that's maybe

13:40

a little too simplistic. So

13:43

when we think about stigma and

13:45

adherence and outcomes, like generally,

13:47

I'll use the TV example just

13:49

because we're on it. But people

13:52

with tuberculosis, they

13:55

are usually already starting at

13:57

a point of significant economic

13:59

disservice. discrimination. That's how they ended

14:01

up getting infected. So people who live

14:03

in really urban, highly populated

14:06

areas, people who have

14:08

to work in like really crowded conditions.

14:11

And so, you know, what's

14:13

what's interesting to me is that

14:15

in the vast majority

14:18

of cases, we offer free treatment,

14:21

because global health health officials know that this is a

14:23

huge problem, we have to stop it. So

14:25

we give people free treatment, right? And

14:28

then they don't finish it, or they don't do it at all. And

14:31

so the way we kind of see stigma

14:33

operate there, is the way that

14:35

they kind of enforce that

14:37

people are taking treatment is through TB

14:39

clinics. So they'll give you an

14:41

appointment time, you come into the TB clinic, you take your

14:43

medication, and someone observes it to be sure that you're, you

14:46

know, doing it every day. But

14:48

nobody wants to go to those things, because everyone

14:50

in the town knows where it is, they see

14:52

you walking in, they know you have tuberculosis, and

14:54

then that comes with all sorts of, you know,

14:57

social outcomes. So in a lot

14:59

of places, TB is associated with like, alleged

15:02

a moral behavior, sometimes it's kind of

15:04

linked to HIV infection. So people assume

15:06

that people have HIV and not causing

15:09

their TB. A lot of

15:11

times there's like, one

15:13

thing I think about specifically is women. Specifically,

15:16

there was a study in India of

15:18

women who outright said, I'm not getting treated

15:20

for TB, I don't want my husband's family

15:22

to find out because I will be disowned,

15:24

I won't be a part of the family unit

15:26

anymore. And so that's kind

15:28

of how we see that, you know, there.

15:31

But I, I

15:34

have this sneaking suspicion that

15:36

it's not just isolated to infectious

15:38

disease. Sure. Yeah, I'm curious,

15:40

just just to that point, like

15:43

it, my initial thought was like,

15:45

Oh, is this because there's a

15:47

lack of education around this. But

15:49

that last point that you made about the stigma

15:52

and using the example of like a woman

15:54

in India who feels like her

15:56

husband's family will disown her, it doesn't sound

15:59

like it's necessary. about and

16:01

necessarily about a lack of education of

16:03

like the impact that TB could

16:06

have on you but it's more so the

16:08

stigma that comes with that is

16:10

that true? Totally. So

16:13

actually interesting you brought that up there's

16:15

a couple of studies that

16:17

that have specifically shown that even when

16:19

people have a very high

16:22

degree of knowledge about TB

16:24

you know how it happens,

16:26

why it happens, treatment,

16:29

the fact that treatment is actually curative in

16:31

most cases so they score really well on

16:33

these tests about TB knowledge they still also

16:35

end up having these preconceived notions about the

16:37

types of people who become sick and what

16:40

that means. Just

16:42

a tie to like my experience that you had said

16:44

and again I never thought about it this way but

16:46

this is exactly what this was where you

16:48

know an example being like early

16:51

days of meeting Brydie

16:54

and you know like early days of

16:56

dating staying over at somebody's

16:58

house I would just not

17:00

do my treatment for CF because it was

17:03

like oh I don't want to I don't

17:05

want them to see me in a different light I don't want

17:07

them to see me as a sick person so I'm just not

17:09

gonna do my I'm not gonna like take my medication even though

17:11

you know even though I fucking am fully aware of CF and

17:14

how I how you know who

17:16

has CF and why I have CF and

17:18

the mechanisms of CF and you know like

17:20

the way that that probably almost

17:23

certainly had an impact on the way

17:25

that you chose

17:27

to go into a field

17:30

of like arts and performance where

17:32

you're not going to have nearly

17:34

the amount of like oversight from

17:36

somebody like a boss right yeah

17:38

some type of prejudice

17:40

or or preconceived notion or

17:43

impose like the feeling of stigma

17:45

on you because you know you've got CF and

17:47

if I have CF then I might not be

17:49

able to perform this job that this person is

17:51

overseeing and blah blah blah blah blah and so

17:53

on and so forth. The question that makes me

17:55

ask those is to talk about you were talking

17:58

about the like sort of big buckets of social

18:00

determinants of health and You mentioned that stigma is

18:02

sort of like an aspect in some ways of

18:04

all of those things, but it sounded almost like

18:06

you were thinking of stigma should really be its

18:08

own bucket. Is that true? Absolutely.

18:12

So this is just kind of,

18:15

there's all sorts of, you know,

18:17

studies also backing this up.

18:20

Like I said, they're kind of few and far between,

18:22

but from my own work in my trans

18:24

health work, we

18:26

were able to, we studied stigma

18:28

specifically and we controlled for

18:31

certain factors in our analysis. So

18:33

we controlled for things we typically think of as like health

18:36

care and life stressors. So income,

18:39

we talked about like racial, you

18:41

know, disparities in health, and we kind of took all of

18:43

those things. We said, yes, these are very important. If

18:46

we cut them out, is stigma still a

18:48

determining factor in overall

18:50

quality of life and relationship quality? And

18:53

the answer was yes. How did you go

18:55

about doing that or designing that study to

18:57

show that? Yeah, so

19:00

I personally, it was a secondary analysis. So

19:02

they had already collected all of this data

19:04

and they basically pulled us in as undergrads.

19:06

And it was kind of crazy. It was a

19:09

great experience, but they gave us this giant codebook

19:11

with like hundreds of questions and

19:13

they're like, do what you want with it. Have fun. So

19:16

there was a section of questions that

19:18

were about different types of stigma. So like,

19:20

have you experienced stigma from a health care

19:23

provider? Have you experienced it from friends and

19:25

family? Do you fear

19:27

going out in public with your partner? You

19:30

know, just questions like that. And

19:32

so I kind of honed in on

19:34

the ones related to partnerships. So trans

19:36

women and their primarily cis male partners

19:39

and how they felt about presenting

19:42

in public with a partner. And

19:45

we found that people who felt

19:50

really uncomfortable

19:52

around, interestingly around friends and

19:54

family, it was kind of

19:57

less so just generally out

19:59

in public. who felt uncomfortable like bringing

20:01

their partner home and kind of incorporating them into

20:03

their family demonstrated

20:05

that they had a really difficult

20:07

time maintaining positive relationships. So their

20:09

overall relationship quality was affected, the

20:11

intimacy and closeness in their relationship

20:13

was infected. So. Are

20:28

you tired of hearing the same

20:30

old wellness advice? It's time to

20:32

dig deeper and listen to America

20:34

Dissected from Crooked Media, the podcast

20:37

that's cutting into the science, culture

20:39

and policy that shapes our health.

20:41

From doctors fighting for their rights

20:43

to the surprising truths about sunscreen,

20:45

America Dissected dives deep into the

20:48

state of health. Tune in every

20:50

Tuesday for new episodes of America

20:52

Dissected, available on all major podcast

20:54

platforms. One

21:11

of my favorite parts about doing this

21:13

project is that when

21:15

we started doing the routine

21:17

checkup episode like this one, we

21:20

were speaking to people that have been in their

21:22

field and doing the thing that they do for

21:25

their entire career. And

21:27

every so often we get this opportunity to

21:30

speak to someone who is just

21:32

on the cusp of trying to even understand what

21:34

it is that they want to do with their

21:36

life. But they know that they want to kind

21:38

of feed themselves into this sphere

21:41

of focusing on health in some

21:43

way. And it always

21:46

just... These

21:48

types of conversations really like fill my

21:50

cup up. It's so nice to see

21:53

someone so young and so bright, have

21:55

such a dedicated focus on things that are

21:57

so fucking important. And it's also really cool

22:00

to get the fresh

22:02

take. From someone who's hopeful.

22:04

Yeah, exactly. From someone who's in it right now. So I

22:06

want to just commend you for that

22:08

and thank you because this is really neat. I

22:10

really do love having these conversations. Secondly,

22:13

I would

22:15

love to talk to you about... We're

22:19

talking about psychosocial elements and the

22:23

social determinants of health. And I

22:25

had mentioned earlier, and we talked about this before we were

22:28

rolling, but I just attended this

22:30

conference in Vancouver and it was put on by

22:32

Children's Health Care Canada. And it was kind of

22:34

broken into two. But

22:36

the first portion of the conference

22:38

was specifically dedicated to transitioning from

22:41

pediatric care to adult care. And

22:44

they had asked me to come in and give

22:47

a keynote to

22:50

deliver the opening keynote for this conference. And

22:52

I remember when they asked me to come

22:55

in, I was like, Oh God, isn't that a funny

22:57

thing? They're doing an entire conference on transitioning

23:00

from Peds to adult clinics. What

23:02

a neat idea, but also wild that they're dedicated

23:06

to an entire conference. And

23:09

then as I started to prep the work

23:11

and write the talk for this

23:14

conference, it started

23:16

to dawn on me the importance of

23:19

that research and that work. And

23:22

for people who aren't familiar,

23:24

who aren't aware, this is

23:26

a necessary and common experience

23:30

for anybody who is living

23:33

with chronic illness, who

23:35

has spent their life attending

23:37

clinics. So for myself, born

23:40

with CF, every three

23:42

months I go to the CF clinic since

23:44

I was a baby. And when

23:49

I was from the age of whatever, a three

23:52

year old to 18 years old here in Nova Scotia,

23:55

I went to the IWK, which is the children's hospital.

23:58

And so over the... That's like almost

24:00

my entire life. I'm going to this hospital

24:03

and I get to know this team of

24:05

people. And there's not a

24:07

lot of turnover in that team of people. Maybe someone will leave,

24:09

but somebody else comes in and people are

24:11

usually there all the time. And so

24:13

it's my social worker, it's my respirologist,

24:15

it's my dietician, it's all the people

24:18

that work to keep me alive. And

24:21

you develop this really deep relationship with these

24:23

people. These

24:25

people are like, they're a part

24:27

of the community that have raised you. This

24:30

is at least how it felt for me. Now you turn 18, right? And

24:33

when you turn 18, you're now considered

24:36

an adult here in Canada. And so

24:39

you no longer will attend the

24:41

pediatric hospital at the IWK. You're

24:43

actually going to transition to the QE2, the adult

24:45

hospital. And that

24:48

transition for a lot

24:50

of people is an

24:52

extraordinarily traumatic experience.

24:56

It is a period of time where you

24:58

start to experience grief and

25:00

you don't even realize that this is what's happening because

25:03

you are leaving behind this community that you once knew

25:05

and that you once felt so comfortable with and you're

25:08

entering a brand new community. And not

25:10

only that, you're also entering a space

25:12

where you

25:14

no longer have your

25:16

advocates by your side. And for myself,

25:19

my own personal experience, that was my

25:21

mother. So now I'm an adult,

25:23

my mom actually can't come with me to the

25:25

QE2. I have to do this on

25:27

my own. Also the walls are beige and at the

25:29

IWK, the walls are colorful. I

25:32

mean, that actually for real plays a

25:34

role in it. Yeah, totally. And so

25:36

you're left to your own devices. And

25:38

as a kid who is 18 who

25:40

never had to rely on his own

25:43

self-advocacy, always leaned on somebody else, that

25:46

was a really fucked up challenging experience. And

25:48

there seemed to be a gap there in

25:51

that transition. There seemed to be a lot

25:53

of work on the Peds end, but

25:56

then the adult side, they're almost like a...

26:00

It was almost as though there just wasn't

26:02

enough interest or care to see

26:04

that transition happen clearly. And at this conference,

26:07

someone said something really awesome where they said,

26:11

it was actually a patient from the IWK who

26:13

made the transition. They compared the

26:15

transition to sending a package.

26:19

And they were like, when you send a package,

26:22

you want to ensure that the person that's on

26:24

the side of sending the package has all the

26:27

relevant information that they need to ensure

26:29

that the package gets to where it goes. And the

26:31

person who's on the side ready to receive

26:33

the package also has all

26:35

that relevant information. And they are

26:37

ensuring that that package is received

26:39

and received with care. Somewhere

26:43

in that passing off of the package, there's

26:45

like a bit of a lack of care, at least that's

26:47

how it feels for a lot of patients. So

26:51

I know that this is a part of

26:54

your research and interest. And

26:57

I would love to hear what your

26:59

thoughts are in terms of what you've

27:01

come across, what you've unpacked, and

27:03

just your overall opinion on

27:05

that transitionary period and its

27:07

importance and its need

27:09

for work and dedication to that

27:11

side of things. Yeah,

27:14

totally. Thank you for sharing

27:17

your experience. And that sounds like such a

27:19

lovely conference. I'll have to stop by next time I

27:21

hold it if they do. So yeah,

27:26

it seems to many people that

27:28

this is kind of outside my wheelhouse and like

27:30

this total shift

27:32

away from what I already do and stigma,

27:34

but it's really not. So

27:37

I kind of have

27:39

this idea to study transitions. It

27:42

was kind of boiling in the back of my head from

27:45

my first year of college. I

27:47

have a little bit of a complicated health history, but

27:50

even outside of that, my friends who maybe don't

27:52

have that, we were all kind of at a

27:55

loss. I came to my freshman year

27:57

was Like that first full year of like

27:59

super. The covered time with and so

28:01

we were all just really confused. like how

28:03

do you make a doctor's appointment or how

28:06

does the student health center work? Do I

28:08

have to like book the thought line. I

28:10

don't know what they what to do when

28:12

they tell me I need actually the prescription

28:15

you know and so it's It's unfortunately really

28:17

com and and you know I didn't. I.

28:20

Think it's also very relevant to people

28:22

who maybe don't go to college and

28:24

don't leave home at eighteen man. Because

28:26

even though you are still kind of

28:28

around your historical support systems whether that

28:31

be parents or whoever it is ah,

28:33

you do have to change providers and

28:35

that in itself is is tricky. Your

28:37

mom kept making appointments for you. You

28:39

have to figure that stuff out on

28:41

your own self. It just felt really

28:44

relevant and like I felt like I

28:46

had the knowledge base to kind of

28:48

dive into. That they brought that. Idea

28:50

to one of my mentors and I'm She

28:52

focuses she that a childless specialist I don't

28:55

know that exists in Canada. And

28:57

but it's essentially it's like that

28:59

type of social worker who are

29:01

only word in health care settings

29:03

and their focus is child development

29:05

and child as a man. Who.

29:08

And so hear a lot of time. They're

29:10

like a scientist. vessels the clinic. Select a

29:12

Cf clinic would have one. Said when diabetes clinic

29:14

would have one. Arm and then they also

29:16

kind of float around. Hospital faces. So while

29:18

you're off, The lights on console come in and

29:20

check in. On and so she does lot

29:22

of work and now we kind of. Put. Our

29:25

put our brains together and and designed

29:27

to study for adolescents and young adult

29:29

patients at Hemophilia Clinic at the Children's

29:32

Hospital. And it's

29:34

actually really cause methodology. I'll try

29:36

not to get out on it

29:38

too much, but it's kind of

29:40

this new wave of thinking and

29:43

in in you know, psychosocial support

29:45

research. Where. You get

29:47

the first person perspective of

29:49

the patient right? because for.

29:51

Major lack of research. Their it's a lot of.

29:54

It's numbers like how many people are making

29:56

appointments on time in. Our son said we

29:58

we often directly. But. We. something

30:00

called photo voice. So we give

30:02

them five prompts, all kind of

30:04

related to their diagnosis and their

30:07

level of psychosocial adjustment, comfort transitioning.

30:09

And we say, okay, for each of these

30:12

prompts, take a photo of something that

30:14

you feel like answers the prompt and write a

30:16

caption. And then we bring them in for an

30:18

interview and kind of have them talk it out a little

30:20

bit. So it's very cool. And

30:22

yeah, we're in the thick of recruitment right now.

30:24

So I do have, you know, some

30:28

sort of knowledge based in like the

30:30

literature I've reviewed. Again, it is very few

30:32

and far between. But I'm really

30:34

excited to see what they say and

30:36

what they let us know. That clinic

30:38

specifically is really interested in this because

30:40

they have a lot of patients who

30:42

they're really good about transition

30:45

in the sense that they follow everything that, you

30:47

know, has been suggested. So

30:49

they kind of help them as

30:52

they're older, like, we'll do a trial period,

30:54

right? Where, okay, parents hands off, they have

30:56

to schedule their next appointment. And

30:59

they go through a transition checklist. Do you have

31:01

a car or do you have a reliable way

31:03

to get to appointments? Where are you moving, you

31:05

know, and kind of answering those things that

31:07

people are still not, you know, attending

31:10

adult clinic at the same frequency as

31:12

they were peace clinic. So they were interested

31:14

in kind of filling in those gaps. Yeah,

31:16

it ties to like the adherence, right? Like,

31:18

like, that's another part of like the social

31:20

side that can have an effect on the

31:22

adherence of the patient, which is like, if

31:24

you don't feel like equipped, like it reminds

31:26

me of how, you know,

31:28

in in schooling,

31:31

there are we were talking this

31:33

conversation recently, like, there's there's just

31:35

this there's a gap in that

31:37

when we were

31:39

like in high school and like a

31:42

big portion, maybe at least of like the last

31:44

like two year or two years of

31:46

high school is to try and

31:48

set you up for going to university

31:51

yet. But it's like, not

31:53

nothing is setting you up to be the

31:55

adult that's in university that now has all

31:57

the responsibility of being an adult. and

32:00

no one's telling you about how to do your

32:02

taxes or what a mortgage is or how to

32:04

set up what insurance plans or whatever. None of

32:07

the actual really relevant logistical information that

32:09

we actually- How to make something other than a

32:11

bowl of cereal. Right, yeah. I'm curious-

32:14

And how you end up making bad

32:16

choices or no choices because you just

32:19

weren't set up to make, and the

32:21

same in the health

32:23

sphere. If you don't feel like

32:25

you're- If you don't feel like you were

32:27

trained to be a self advocate, right? And

32:29

again, it's like that empowerment piece,

32:32

right? If a patient feels empowered, a patient's

32:34

gonna feel adequate for self advocacy, and if

32:36

a patient feels adequate for self advocacy, we're

32:38

gonna see better health outcomes across the board.

32:41

But without that, then you're gonna

32:43

see patients kind of fall through

32:45

the cracks. I'm curious about the

32:48

photo prompting and the design of that. One,

32:50

I'm curious if we can give us an example

32:53

of what that might look like. And two,

32:55

I'm also curious if this is designed more

32:57

for a younger generation in the sense that

33:00

it almost reminds me of taking a photo

33:03

and then captioning it for Instagram or

33:06

making a TikTok video. It

33:08

seems like a way that a younger

33:10

person would understand and

33:12

intuitively know how to sort of

33:14

respond to that. Yeah,

33:17

I mean, that's kind of what it's based in. Kind

33:20

of like you were talking about earlier at

33:22

the conference. So what does

33:25

exist out there in terms of research, a

33:28

lot of it has shown that digital

33:30

diaries and social media are

33:33

actually really helpful in teenagers kind

33:35

of feeling empowered related to

33:37

their diagnosis because that's what social media

33:39

is, right? Like you post the best

33:41

moments of your life, you show things

33:43

that you're really proud of, you get

33:46

closer with your friends through that. And so

33:48

it's kind of like a really unique

33:50

and interesting way that people from my generation

33:53

kind of feel vulnerable, but also feel

33:55

really empowered by doing so. And

33:57

so that's kind of where I think that this.

34:00

methodology kind of came up

34:02

was drawing on what are

34:04

young people doing and

34:06

what is important to them and how do they communicate

34:08

with each other and then kind of, you know, drawing

34:10

on that. I

34:12

could show you some examples later if

34:15

you're interested. Like I said,

34:17

it is pretty new. So

34:19

I know there was one project that was

34:21

a lot of times they're

34:23

not really used in the research setting, right? So

34:25

it'll be something like, oh, we're going to do

34:27

a photo voice project. So you're going to take

34:29

a picture of like, I think there's one that

34:32

was that got a lot of attraction that

34:34

was like, oh, take

34:36

a picture of how you're perceiving the

34:38

COVID pandemic and how that impacts your life.

34:41

And so kids are taking pictures of

34:43

like these empty swing sets and like

34:46

there's these really creative awesome things and

34:48

writing these thoughtful captions that they're able

34:50

to base in something instead

34:52

of just asking someone straight up, you know, it's so

34:54

much easier to have something to draw from and even

34:57

cooler when the thing you're drawing from is something that

34:59

you took in the first place. And

35:02

so, so yeah, it's a

35:04

lot of times they do those projects and then we'll like

35:06

hang it up on the wall. And

35:09

so what my team and I are really

35:11

interested in doing is taking that

35:13

existing methodology that exists that has

35:15

been, you know, shown to

35:18

like elicit these really awesome and creative responses

35:20

but then code it like you would any

35:22

other qualitative study. So you just go along

35:24

by line. This is a really simplified explanation,

35:27

but you kind of go line by line and

35:29

then an experienced member of the research team was

35:31

kind of trained in like these kind of theories

35:33

and topics will say, Oh, look, seven

35:35

out of 10 patients all

35:38

identified this thing as, you know, something that's

35:40

really important to them. And then we can

35:43

turn those into numbers and study them. That's

35:46

really cool. I would, you

35:48

know, I know, I know another

35:50

thing that we sort of talked about prior to recording

35:52

was like the, the importance in

35:54

like the power of narratives. And

35:57

especially like, especially thinking about

36:00

this from like a sort of child,

36:05

like child care and peds care,

36:07

the importance of narratives. It's

36:12

something we've kind of touched on before, but

36:14

just again, to like tie this into my

36:16

own personal experience. I never really

36:18

thought about the power of like, of like

36:21

seeing yourself represented in film.

36:23

I've always heard people talk about that, where

36:25

it's like, I don't, I don't feel like I'm represented or like

36:27

there's an importance to being, you know, feeling represented in media. And

36:29

I was always like, no, no, no, I don't, I don't really,

36:31

like, I don't really get it. Probably because I'm just a white

36:34

male. That's like, you know, I've got lots

36:36

of representation, but I never really thought

36:38

about the lack of representation for like a

36:40

CF patient until we went to five feet

36:42

apart. That's right. Until we saw just the

36:45

Baldonis five feet apart. And that

36:47

movie, like it was a very visceral

36:49

experience seeing that movie and going, Oh,

36:52

fuck. This is

36:55

what everyone was talking about. And oh my

36:57

goodness, this

37:00

is such a unique feeling to feel

37:02

like I am seeing a representation

37:04

of something that's so close to me

37:07

being played out here in front of this, you

37:09

know, theater people. It was, it was a, it

37:12

was really powerful. So can

37:14

you speak, you know, can you speak to

37:16

your thoughts surrounding the importance of narrative? What

37:19

does that mean? You know, what does that mean for

37:21

patients? And, and, and,

37:24

you know, let's say, let's say someone's out

37:26

there listening to this and they, they, they

37:28

feel like they haven't actually seen them or

37:30

their illness represented. Are there

37:32

ways that people can kind of look at

37:34

doing that themselves? And what does that look

37:36

like? Totally. Um, so

37:38

this is kind of drawing

37:40

back on, on what I was saying earlier that,

37:43

you know, maybe this work, um, from the outside

37:45

looking in is like, what does that have to

37:47

do with like stigma and, and, and social life?

37:49

But, um, if

37:51

I asked you to describe

37:53

the role of what is

37:55

supposed to be like the life of a teenager,

37:57

an adolescent, a young adult, it might be hard

38:00

to like write it out neatly, but you'd

38:02

have a pretty good idea of what that would

38:04

look like, right? The classic coming of age story. And

38:07

a lot of sick teenagers don't fit

38:09

that idea, and a lot of

38:11

them do, but they don't think they do because of

38:14

the way we talk about illness. And

38:16

you know, we kind of, I don't

38:18

know if this is this really to your experience

38:20

at all, but what I've noticed is we kind

38:22

of place illness on this

38:24

like unique pillar of suffering that like

38:26

no one else could ever understand. It's

38:29

like this, this experience that, you know,

38:31

is so paramount in one's

38:33

life and is must

38:35

be so awful and so bad and, and,

38:37

you know, a lot of times

38:40

that's well meaning, right? It's, it's trying to like

38:42

romanticize this, this suffering. And I feel like a

38:44

lot of media does that. But

38:46

romanticization is not the opposite of

38:48

stigmatization. It's actually like a mechanism

38:51

by which we continue to do

38:53

that. And so for adolescents and

38:55

young adults, we try to avoid

38:57

interventions that make kids like quote,

38:59

feel like anyone else. So,

39:02

so what we want to do is instill meaning

39:04

and purpose in the life of the sick person

39:06

rather than like striving

39:09

towards living a non-sick

39:11

person life. And so that's

39:13

kind of where narratives come in. And so

39:17

interestingly, I

39:19

think that one

39:22

of the like, this is

39:24

again, newer, but one of the interventions that

39:26

we see for a lot of kiddos

39:28

who are like maybe physically

39:31

disabled or unable to leave their house for whatever reason,

39:33

one of the things that kind of gives their life purpose

39:35

and meaning is like video games

39:37

and online practices and things like

39:40

that. So that's a way

39:42

to kind of, you know, that's an intervention to

39:44

kind of give people meaning, purpose

39:46

in life. But at the as

39:49

interesting as that is, I'm a little

39:51

more interested in like crafting an illness narrative, which

39:53

you mentioned, sorry, I'm kind of talking in circles

39:55

at this point. But that's

39:57

kind of like Essentially

40:00

what it is, is taking the story

40:02

of your health and tying

40:04

it into the story of your life. It's

40:06

not like, I am a totally

40:09

normal, awesome, great person, which like, you

40:11

know, whatever, everybody's great people, but it's

40:14

not like having that side of you and

40:16

then the patient side. It's

40:18

like, how are these two things the

40:20

same? How can you be a smart,

40:23

intelligent, funny, social person while also being

40:25

a sick person? Those two things are

40:27

not exclusive. And

40:30

so kind of writing out the

40:32

ways that, or speaking, I know

40:34

we've talked about digital stuff, so

40:36

maybe like doing like podcasting

40:38

or things like that. We have that at the

40:40

children's hospital where people will come around to rooms

40:42

and say, you know, give us like a 30 minute

40:44

spiel, tell us about your life and all the things

40:46

you've done. And

40:48

you know, it's really helpful for people to talk about,

40:50

you know, this is the story of my health

40:52

and all the things I've been through in that

40:54

regard. And then I'm going to talk about

40:57

it at the same time with like all of the things

40:59

I've accomplished and how full of a life I'm living. Yeah,

41:02

I mean, I mean, you know, I've said this in

41:04

a number of talks, but like, we I

41:07

think I think we've all heard people say something

41:09

to the effect of like, oh, well, I would

41:11

never want my illness to define me. And

41:15

like, I mean, I like I've

41:17

seen the complete opposite way. I'm like, I want to

41:19

let my illness define me 100 percent, but I want

41:21

to I want to do that on my own terms.

41:23

Like, you know, I'll let it define me the

41:26

way that I allow it to define

41:28

me. You know, it's really it's really

41:30

refreshing to hear like a younger perspective

41:33

in particular about things like video games.

41:36

I feel like I feel like not

41:38

to not to sort of take the power of

41:40

the word stigma, but I feel like there's a

41:42

lot of stigma around video games in terms of

41:45

like, if you look at it for a lot

41:47

of adults, if they look at children playing video

41:49

games, one of the first thoughts they might have

41:51

is like, oh, what a waste of time. Like

41:53

that kid's wasting their life. The other day I

41:55

heard somebody say, you know, my

41:57

son, he's a good kid. video

42:00

games he doesn't. And I heard her say that and

42:02

I went, what? And

42:06

the interesting thing is as gamers

42:09

or fans of video games, the

42:11

three of us, I really

42:14

see the value in video games. I'm

42:16

curious, what sort of benefits

42:19

in terms of narratives do you see

42:21

specifically when it comes to someone

42:24

who's maybe passionate about playing video games? Totally.

42:28

So I would say I've kind of looked

42:30

at this less through the lens of narratives

42:32

and more through the lens of developing

42:35

community. But

42:37

something that's interesting is a lot

42:39

of kids we find go

42:42

into this fantasy world, whatever that may be.

42:44

I'm not a huge gamer. My

42:47

knowledge ends at Nintendo. So

42:51

they go into these collective

42:53

gaming experiences. And it could be with

42:55

their friends school that, hey, I physically

42:58

cannot go to the football game that

43:00

everyone's going to. What's something that I

43:02

can do to stay connected and

43:04

feel involved and be

43:06

in all the jokes and be a part

43:08

of this community that I have? And

43:10

so that's kind of the main way

43:13

that I've seen it operate. I

43:15

think it's also helpful to give

43:18

kids the chance to, in some regard,

43:21

be the hero of a story.

43:23

And maybe they're not ready to do that

43:25

in their own life. And it's a little

43:27

trickier to say that about yourself,

43:30

because sometimes you feel like, oh, I'm gassing

43:32

myself up. But

43:34

it gives them the chance to win at something

43:36

and to work towards something and to have a

43:38

goal and accomplish it. And it really helps instill

43:40

confidence in a lot of people who maybe can't

43:43

live out other goals, things that

43:45

have to do with

43:47

physical accomplishment. That's

43:49

really cool. I

43:51

know, personally, I don't play a lot

43:53

of one

43:56

player video games. I mostly play multiplayer ones.

43:58

And it was funny. I was playing. playing

44:00

a game with my friend the other night. And

44:04

I realized that I wasn't even paying attention

44:06

to what was happening in the game. I

44:08

was actually just talking to him. And we

44:10

were talking about life and school

44:13

and work and how things were going. And

44:16

I realized that I just kept dying

44:18

and I wasn't helpful in the game at all. But

44:20

we were just having this really great conversation. And I

44:23

think that a lot of adults

44:25

who look at video games, they think of video

44:27

games in the ways that they were in the

44:29

early days. There was no online

44:31

connectivity. There was no community in those games.

44:33

There was a lot of playing

44:36

this game for hours on end where you might have

44:38

been isolated. And even though you were accomplishing things like

44:41

working towards a goal or doing problem solving

44:43

and a lot of other things that I

44:45

think are really great about video games, I

44:47

oftentimes think that they don't think about that

44:49

community aspect. So many kids are

44:51

going home from school and then continuing, for

44:54

better or worse, their relationships that they

44:56

have with their friends at school because

44:58

they exist online, whether that's in games

45:00

or in communication

45:02

forms like chatting on Discord or things like

45:04

that. I mean, think about how video games

45:07

played such a vital role in

45:12

keeping our own social sanity.

45:15

And I'm talking about the three of us during COVID. I

45:18

felt like even though we might not have

45:21

seen each other's faces for weeks or months

45:23

on end, we were hanging out. We were

45:25

together every single day. And

45:28

that was by way of video games. There

45:31

really is a very valuable power to

45:36

the connectivity that can be involved there. Especially,

45:39

I mean, when you're talking about people who might

45:41

live with a disability where it's like they don't actually

45:45

get to have much of a social life outside of

45:48

their home. They

45:50

don't have the ability. When

45:52

COVID comes around, when we get hit

45:55

that's exponentially more

45:57

true than it already was. Yeah,

46:00

I love that you bring that up. It

46:04

does make me wonder. I wonder if there's,

46:08

when you think of researchers

46:11

who have been in this

46:13

career for a long time that you might work

46:15

with, not to throw shade

46:17

at anyone, but are there those dated

46:20

perspectives from older

46:22

researchers, or do you find that they're

46:24

mostly pretty open to exploring these new

46:26

ways of thinking about these problems? Well,

46:29

I'll say everyone I've interacted

46:31

with personally is great. I

46:34

have nothing but great things to say. A

46:37

lot of people though... She's winking at me. Well, I'm

46:39

not. I swear. I swear. I

46:43

definitely, you know, but you

46:46

see it in the work that's being produced. You

46:48

see it in the way that we're thinking about

46:50

this the same way over and over again.

46:52

I mean, back to the transitions

46:54

aspect, right? It's like, these

46:56

people are not doing

46:59

this medication every day, so we're going to tell

47:01

mom to observe and make sure that they do

47:04

it. Oh no, that failed.

47:06

It's like we're not going anywhere in

47:08

some ways. And obviously there's a lot

47:10

of promising work being done. And

47:13

it's really important, but I think it's

47:16

a big gap and no one's really talking

47:18

about it. And I think, I mean,

47:21

especially when we get to media,

47:23

because there's this confusion about like, where

47:26

do we go from here? How do we

47:28

take something like media? So like, I'm

47:30

really interested in illness media and depictions of

47:32

illness through that. I know you mentioned Five

47:34

Feet Apart. There's a, I know we're running

47:36

short on time, but if you

47:38

ever catch me again, I could talk for hours about

47:40

a Netflix show called The Midnight Club. I

47:43

have so many thoughts. Michael

47:45

Flanagan, right? Same guy that

47:47

did Midnight Mass. And

47:50

Haunting of Hill House. It

47:52

was based off of a, like a teen

47:55

fiction series from back

47:57

in, I don't know, like probably the late.

48:00

90s or something. Yeah. Oh, my God. But

48:02

I know exactly what you're talking about. And I love. Okay.

48:05

Okay. Okay. Well, just a quick

48:07

aside there. I mean, it was canceled,

48:09

which is like, so frustrating because I

48:11

mean, obviously, it's a Netflix show,

48:13

right? So there was some like, cringy dialogue

48:16

and, you know, some things that weren't quite

48:18

fleshed out. But there's still like these moments

48:20

of, of it's taking

48:22

sick adolescents and putting them as

48:24

stars of the story. And it's

48:27

giving them lives outside of that. So no longer

48:29

are they like the supporting characters that

48:31

are driving character development and like

48:33

their healthy counterparts. Right. So

48:35

anyway, I have a lot to say on

48:38

it. But it's horror. So

48:40

yeah, I mean, that's crazy. That's like one of

48:42

the first times I've ever

48:44

seen, you know, a good

48:47

and popular rendering of

48:50

like the sick person story

48:52

outside of like the drama.

48:54

Yeah. You know, rom com.

48:56

Rom commie, you know, the wife with

48:59

cancer and, you know, hey, love

49:01

rom com. Yeah, but cancer fix there. You

49:04

know, yeah, they're very formulaic. It does make

49:06

me think of like, you know, like, wouldn't

49:08

it be cool if there was a show

49:10

that was had a character like

49:12

in Five Feet Apart, but the story wasn't

49:14

about them. You know, like the story wasn't

49:17

about the fact that they're sick, but

49:19

that character still existed in that world.

49:21

Yeah. Because I feel like oftentimes when

49:25

illness is depicted, it's because it is like the

49:27

star of the show. And it's like, look at

49:29

the experience of this person because they are that

49:31

way. Not that they're just this like, I mean,

49:33

in this storyline that happens to also have this

49:36

thing. And a lot like how how

49:38

like gay characters

49:40

have evolved in in media over

49:43

the past, like five to 10

49:45

years where instead of it, instead

49:47

of them being gay is

49:49

the story. Right. There's just

49:52

a gay character because there are just

49:54

gay people in the world. Exactly. Yeah.

49:56

Yeah. Emmy,

50:01

you're awesome. It's

50:03

really cool. It's really cool to, again, I

50:05

said it earlier, and I'll repeat it again,

50:08

but it's really hopeful. It's really a beautiful

50:10

thing to be able to speak to someone

50:12

so young, so bright, who's on

50:15

the path to looking at stuff that matters and

50:18

looking at stuff that maybe isn't getting enough focus,

50:21

yet there's something about your brain that has

50:23

wired itself into seeing and recognizing

50:25

that and wanting

50:27

to put effort into focusing

50:30

on it. So thank you so much for,

50:32

A, the work that you are doing and

50:34

the work that you will continue to do,

50:36

I'm sure, but also thanks for taking

50:39

time out of your schedule to sit down with us, even

50:41

though you've probably got an exam like five

50:43

minutes after this. Yeah, good luck with your bio

50:45

exam. Thank you. Yeah,

50:47

this has been a real treat, and

50:49

we hope to keep in touch. We would love to

50:51

have you back on this so important in the future.

50:54

Awesome. I'll have more papers and

50:56

all sorts of things under my belt, so I'm

50:58

interested to see where it goes. Cool, well thanks,

51:00

Emmy, this has been real fun. Thank

51:03

you so much. That

51:07

is it for this week's edition of

51:09

Routine Checkup. Thank you so much for

51:11

tuning in, folks. It means the world

51:13

to us. And if you'd

51:15

like to continue listening to the podcast,

51:17

you can do that right here on

51:19

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51:21

of course, if you want to support the

51:23

podcast further, you can leave us a rating

51:25

and review on Apple Podcasts, or you can

51:27

simply rate the podcast on your Spotify mobile

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you know, tell someone that you love, tell

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51:38

Podcast, and recommend it to them

51:40

because we always love those extra ears.

51:43

The podcast is produced and

51:45

hosted by myself, Jeremy Saunders,

51:47

Brian Stever, and Taylor McGilvery.

51:50

The podcast is managed by Jeffrey Lowness

51:52

at Talent Bureau. The theme music

51:54

for today's episode comes from Rich O'Coin.

51:58

Thanks again, folks. I hope you enjoyed it and

52:00

we'll be back next week. That's it

52:03

for now. My name is Jeremy and this is St