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Music.

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With founder and director, Dr. Charlie Bing. This podcast and other helpful

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resources can be found at our website, gracelife.org.

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Now, here's Dr. Bing. Happy to be here today with our friend, Dr.

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Robbie Dean, at his church, West Houston Bible Church, in just,

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I guess, outside of the Houston city limit, isn't it? No, we're in the city.

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You're in the city limit. We're in the city limits. Yeah, this is part of the city of Houston. Okay.

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And tell us about how long you've been here.

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We started the church in 2004. Actually, it'll be 20 years this coming,

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well, in just about three weeks. And at that time I was pastoring in Connecticut and they were using video from

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the church in Connecticut until

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they got enough people, got established so that I could move down here.

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I'm an only child and my mother died two years before and my dad had Alzheimer's.

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So it It really opened up at the right time. It was God's timing.

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So we started the church, and the rest is history. Yeah.

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Well, you also have Dean Bible Ministries that's come out of all of this.

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And I know that wherever I go, I hear people referencing you and listening to your teaching.

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You have a YouTube channel called Light from the Light.

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And we'll put that information at the beginning of the podcast text so you can see it.

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You've written some books like Spiritual Warfare in your booklet Bible,

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God's Bible, Powerful Promises, and one for Jewish evangelism,

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how to be right with God. So they'll have access to that.

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Robbie's also a fellow alumnus from Dallas Theological Seminary where he did

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his doctorate work and also got his doctorate bestowed upon him by Faith Evangelical Seminary.

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So he's got a lot of training behind him, and he's been serving on the board

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of Schaeffer Theological Seminary, for which I've taught for 24 or 23 years,

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something like that. Good time. And we're going to just have a discussion today. It's going to be on the topic of forgiveness.

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And I think Robbie's going to bring some good insights to that.

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So Robbie, what'd you want to say about, how'd you want to start this out?

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You got a text or you want to start out with the topic?

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Well, I want to start with the text. I always think it's better. Let's go to Scripture.

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And the passage that I think is really critical for helping a lot of people

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understand what happened at salvation and what happened,

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first of all, at the cross and understanding what Jesus Christ did on the cross

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that is so significant and indicated as well by his last statement when he said

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to Telestai, it is finished. When he said it is paid in full, what was paid in full?

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And Colossians 2, 12 to 14 really helps us understand that.

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And at the center of these verses in verse 13,

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the last phrase is, actually it's the last clause, participial clause,

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laws, having forgiven you of all trespasses." Now, what does that mean,

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and when did that happen?

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Some people think, well, I was forgiven when I trusted Christ as Savior.

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Other people think, well, I was forgiven when I confessed sin.

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And what this passage tells us is that, yes, those are true,

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but we were also forgiven.

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The time that it was nailed to the cross. That's verse 14.

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That helps people understand where we're going with the passage,

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because it's a long sentence.

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It starts back at 13 and 14, as it's laid out in most Bibles,

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13 is one sentence, and then you have 14 goes into another sentence.

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But they all tend to run together, piling up.

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And I know this kind of grammar drives people nuts, But it piles up one participle

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with another, and you have to carefully think through the relationship of these

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participles because they modify a main verb.

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But when it's all said and done, what we learn is that as it's translated in

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the New King James, the handwriting of requirements that was against us,

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he has taken it out of the way and nailed it to the cross.

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Well, he didn't nail it to the cross when you heard the gospel.

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He didn't nail it to the cross when I trusted Christ.

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He nailed it to the cross at a specific time and date in, I believe, A.D.

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33. Yep. And that means that all these things that are outlined here were accomplished at that point.

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So all those things. So they're obviously, we sometimes just think of forgiveness,

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all of our sins are forgiven. There's some who say you don't even need to confess your sins because they've all been forgiven.

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Sometimes that view is identified as hyper grace. And then there are others

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who would go the other extreme and say, since all of the sins of all mankind

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are forgiven at the cross, that would lead to universalism.

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So how do you distinguish the kind of forgiveness that we're talking about? Yeah.

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I would call this forgiveness a forensic forgiveness or a legal forgiveness

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because the problem that we have is a legal penalty that when Adam and Eve disobeyed

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God, when they sinned in the garden, the penalty for that sin was spiritual death, separation from God.

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And that led eventually to physical death, but Adam doesn't die for another 930 years.

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It's the result of spiritual death, being separated from God the Father.

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So when God set up the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,

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he told Adam that in the day, and that's an idiom, at the time,

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at the instant you eat from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you will,

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and it's a really strong idiom in the Hebrew, you will surely die.

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It's not like, okay, you're going going to die a thousand years later.

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It's instant. And we know it was instant because the text indicates that God

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would walk in the garden with them daily.

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But when God came to walk with them after they had eaten the fruit,

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they were afraid, number one, and they ran and hid.

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They had realized they were naked. They tried to cover it up.

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Then they were afraid when they They heard God coming in the garden, and they ran and hid.

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They were separated from God. That eternal relationship that they were created

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with was broken by their sin.

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And so now God was going to provide a solution for them. So that's the legal penalty.

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So what Christ has to do on the cross is to pay the legal penalty on our behalf.

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Okay, so that's what you're saying is he meant by it is finished then,

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and the legal penalty has been paid, but how then is it applied,

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and to whom is it applied? Okay, well, everybody ought to be familiar with the word forensic.

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I mean, the last 20 years, we've had these shows called CSI and NCIS,

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and they're constantly talking about forensics, which has to do with issues

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related to legal problems,

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making a legal case, a courtroom case.

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So when we talk about the forensic thing, we're talking about God solved the

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problem. Now, the way I try to explain this to people is that we really are

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born with three problems. The first problem is that there's a legal penalty, that we have been declared

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guilty and we're under the penalty of eternal death.

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The second problem is that we are born spiritually dead. That's our experience.

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We're born spiritually dead. The third problem is we lack righteousness. So, that's a simplified way of expressing,

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I would say, the core problem.

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So, we've got a legal penalty, we are born spiritually dead,

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and we lack righteousness.

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So, what happened at the cross is that legal penalty was paid for.

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Christ took our place. He was our substitute. substitute and

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and then when we trust in christ

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there is there is an action

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that takes place then where we receive that forgiveness experientially now to

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help us understand that i want to look at this passage just a little bit and

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bring out a a few points there so if we go back to verse 12,

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We go back and we look at verse 12.

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It says, it starts off with the participle, the way it's translated in the New

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King James, is buried with him in baptism.

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Holman Christian Standard Bible translates it, having been buried with him.

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So it picks up the fact that this has to do with a past tense action.

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And so actually in the Greek, it's a past tense, which tells you that this action

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comes before the action of the main verb.

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The main verb has to do with being raised together with him.

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So, in the New King James, it says.

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So, it says you were raised through faith in the working of God.

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That is also the same kind of past tense and aorist tense.

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So when you have an aorist participle modifying an aorist tense main verb,

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the action of the participle is either at the same time or it precedes the action of the verb.

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So what you have here is a situation where it says you,

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and I would take this as a participle of means, that we were raised with him

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by being buried with him in baptism.

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Baptism is identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection.

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So this brings in a totally different doctrine. This brings in the doctrine

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of the baptism by the Holy Spirit.

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And what this is telling us is that our original condition, which is then mentioned

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in verse 13, is that we're born spiritually dead.

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And then when we trust Christ, we were raised with him.

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By being identified already. So the identification takes place first,

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and then we're buried with him in baptism and raised together with him.

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That's the baptism by the Holy Spirit. This is described in Romans chapter 6, verses 3 through 6.

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And then he goes on to say in verse 13, describing what had happened,

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he said, you, and again, it's another one of these participles.

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I think it should be taken temporally when you were dead.

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So that's talking about this moment in time, we are separated from God.

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We're spiritually dead in our trespasses and the uncircumcision of the flesh.

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These are just idioms related to spiritual death.

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And so at that point in time, we're spiritually dead.

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And then he made us alive together with him.

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So you're living your life. you're born spiritually dead, and then someone tells you the gospel.

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You believe in Christ, and at that instant, He makes you alive together with

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Him. Now, hold that thought. Remember I said we've got three problems.

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We have a penalty against us. Well, at the end of verse 14, we learn that that

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penalty is taken care of when it's nailed to the cross in 33.

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But when we trust in Christ, then he makes us alive together with him.

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That solved the second problem. And the second problem is that we're born spiritually dead.

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So when we trust in Christ and we're born again, we're regenerated,

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we are made alive together with him.

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Now, the next problem, which is that we lack righteousness,

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isn't part of this passage, But that's related to justification by faith,

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that at the same simultaneous actions that take place is that God not only regenerates

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us, but he imputes or credits to our account the righteousness of Christ,

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and then he declares us to be righteous.

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So that solves the righteousness problem. problem in history

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in 33 christ died for our

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sins and if you look at what happens here in verse

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13 the way it's described is when

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we were dead at that instant he made us alive together with

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him and then there's another participle and it's a participle probably of means

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he made us alive together with him by forgiving us or it could be when he forgave

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us which is at that same instant of all of our trespasses.

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So this shows that this is an action of forgiveness that takes place at the time of faith in Christ.

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The payment of the sin penalty is another form of forgiveness,

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or it could be this way, that he made us alive together with him because he

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forgave us of those trespasses, this is the more likely view.

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And when did He forgive us of those trespasses? This is verse 14,

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because He canceled them when He took it, when He nailed it to the cross.

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So the forgiveness here is not

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a forgiveness that happened when we were saved, when we trusted Christ.

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The forgiveness here is when He nailed it to the cross.

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Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I was going to ask you about that.

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I was going to ask about that figure of speech that he uses,

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which is very interesting to us. Do you have any insight about the record of debt being canceled and the nailing to the cross?

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Right. What is he describing there? What's the background that would help us understand that?

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The background on that, where it is translated, and it's handled a little differently

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in different translations. The New King James says it's a handwriting of requirements. requirements,

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but probably the Holman Christian Standard Bible and others would translate

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that as a certificate of debt. And Holman translates it, he erased the certificate of debt with its obligations.

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So this is talking about the idea

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of a certificate of debt is that we owed something, We owed a penalty.

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Now, why do you think he talks about this as a certificate of debt in the context

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of talking about forgiveness? Well, tell us. Well, we go back to this word that's translated forgiven.

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There are two Greek words that are translated forgiveness.

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And it's interesting that both words emphasize in some context the canceling of a financial debt.

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The Greek word word that is used for forgiveness in 1 John 1.9 is the word aphiemi.

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That is used of canceling a financial debt.

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In this passage, the word is charizomai.

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So what's the difference? Well, the root of this verb charizomai is the noun charis for grace.

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It emphasizes the gracious nature of the forgiveness, whereas Afi-Ami emphasizes

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the total cancellation of the debt.

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So they're both looking at the cancellation of a debt.

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One is emphasizing the fact of the cancellation.

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The other is emphasizing the gracious basis for that cancellation.

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And so what we see here in this passage is that that cancellation of the debt

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was taken out of its way and nailed to the cross.

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So that's why I say this is the legal penalty. We had incurred a debt,

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a legal debt. We had to pay the penalty ourselves.

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Unless somebody paid it for us. He paid that penalty for us as our substitute.

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It's the picture of the Passover lamb, where this lamb is taken,

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which this typology is fulfilled in when Christ entered into Jerusalem.

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The Passover lamb is chosen on the 10th of the Jewish month of Nisan.

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And in the original Passover, that lamb was to be evaluated for four days to

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make sure it was without spot or blemish.

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So Jesus is evaluated between the day he enters into Jerusalem and the day that

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they had what is known as the Last Supper, and he is interviewed and he is critiqued,

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criticized by the Sadducees, the Pharisees, the Herodians, all these different

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groups are going to have their shot at Jesus.

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And he doesn't sin. He demonstrates that he is the Son of God and that he is

18:13

without sin and therefore qualified to go to the cross,

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just as a Passover lamb would demonstrate in those four days that it was without spot or blemish.

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Then the Passover lamb was sacrificed and the blood indicating,

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because the shedding of blood indicates death, that shed blood was applied.

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Actually, the Hebrew word there in Exodus is they struck the doorpost.

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And so they'd strike the doorpost and splatter the blood onto the two doorposts,

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one on the left, one on the right, and on the lintel, the cross piece at the top.

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And so anyone inside that house that was, as it were, covered by the blood of

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the lamb was that God would pass over the house and the firstborn would not,

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the life of the firstborn would not be taken.

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And so, the Lamb's life was taken in the place of the firstborn in the house.

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That's a picture of what happened at the cross. First Christ is qualified between

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the 10th of Nisan and the 14th, then he's crucified on the cross as our sacrifice.

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He paid the penalty for our sins, and the certificate of debt is paid for.

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That legal penalty is taken.

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So people would say, well, why isn't everybody saved?

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Because they're still spiritually dead, and they still lack righteousness.

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The only way they can receive righteousness and the only way they can be made

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alive is to believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins.

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This is Ephesians 2.4 down to verse 9, and that it is by faith that that we

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are saved not by works, lest any man should boast.

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So we're saved by grace through faith. It's that whole phrase that's important. That's the gift of God.

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For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And that, the word that is

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in the neuter in the Greek. And two of the nouns before are feminine. One is masculine. masculine.

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And when you have a collection of different gender nouns, then the relative

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pronoun has to be in the neuter. And that's what you have in that case. So that that doesn't refer to the faith.

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It's not, and that faith, it's not, is it the gift of God? It doesn't say that.

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And it doesn't say that salvation. It is that by grace through faith, salvation, the whole concept that is not by works.

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And so we make that decision, trust in Christ, and God regenerates us.

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He makes us alive together with him. That's the same thing in Ephesians,

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same phrase in Ephesians 2.4 that you have here in Colossians, that you are,

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in Colossians 2.12, you are raised with him through faith. So the faith is the means.

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Now, some people think faith is the cause, but that's not the language in the

21:21

Greek. It's very precise. It's not causal.

21:24

It is means. So if somebody were to ask us where we're sitting right now,

21:28

back in this room, somebody were to come in and ask, where's the restroom?

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I would say it's through that door. The goal would be the restroom. That's analogous to to the goal of salvation.

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How do you get there? Well, you have to go through the door.

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The door represents faith.

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So what comes first, faith or salvation?

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Well, in our analogy, we've got to go through the door to get to the restroom.

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So what the passage says, you have to go through faith before you get to salvation.

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So faith must precede salvation. Some people teach that regeneration or salvation

22:08

precedes faith, but that's not how the language works in Ephesians 2, 4 through 9.

22:15

Yeah, absolutely. Faith is the instrumental means, is the way I often put it.

22:20

Grace is the effective means. We say that water goes through a hose. If we're saving ourselves from thirst, we're saved by the hose.

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We could say that. But we're actually saved by the water.

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The effective means, the hose, would just be the instrumental means.

22:37

So some good insights from the language there and the different verbs used for

22:41

forgiveness, especially. I like that. And you mentioned 1 John 1, 9. So the forgiveness there is often used by Christians.

22:50

And how would you relate what you've been talking about? The legal concept and aspects of forgiveness that cancel the sin and that allow

22:58

God's righteousness, which, by the way, reminds me of 2 Corinthians 5.21,

23:02

for he made him who knew no sin, Jesus, to be sin for us, that we might become

23:06

the righteousness of God in him. So justification is not just the canceling of our sin, but it's also the imputation

23:12

of God's righteousness. So we're declared righteous, but yet 1 John is telling us to confess our sins,

23:22

or is that written to unbelievers? What do you think?

23:25

Well, 1 John is talking about believers. That's very clear. All the way through,

23:30

it's talking about believers. It's contrasting.

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It contrasts two types of believers, those who are walking in the light and

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those who are walking in darkness. And this is what John makes very clear. This is the message which we have heard

23:46

from him and declare to you that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

23:51

If we believers say that we have fellowship with him, that word for fellowship here is very important.

23:57

Most people think of fellowship as some sort of, you know, spiritual,

24:01

you know, some sort of a spiritual interaction or a social interaction.

24:08

Like we talked about, well, let's go out and have some fellowship around lunch.

24:11

That is not exactly what this word means.

24:15

It indicates a partnership between two parties that are moving toward a common goal.

24:22

So there's a tighter intimacy and connection there.

24:27

So when we, it's like the connection, you start off when we trust Christ as

24:33

Savior, we're adopted into God's family.

24:35

And so that's our new identity. That's our new legal position.

24:39

Okay, so we talk about forgiveness. I talked about a forensic forgiveness that

24:45

applies to everybody because Christ paid the penalty for sin.

24:48

The legal penalty is paid for, but that doesn't change our relationship.

24:53

That doesn't happen until we express faith in Christ.

24:57

And at that point, when we do, along with being born again, being regenerated,

25:02

or being declared righteous, we are adopted into God's royal family.

25:07

That is a legal position that we now have.

25:10

So there's legal forgiveness that's related to our position in Christ, our identity in Him.

25:19

When we're part of a family, whether we were legally adopted into a family or

25:23

were born into a family, we can't change that status. That's secure.

25:29

But we can do things that disappoint our parents, that make our parents very

25:35

upset and angry, where it causes a breach in the family dynamics,

25:41

the closeness, the intimacy. And so, what we have to do is to confess our guilt to our parents that something

25:51

has to happen to repair the relationship so that that original intimacy and

25:57

close partnership with our parents within the family dynamic is recovered. uncovered.

26:03

And see, so some people say, well, 1 John 1, 7 says that if we're walking in

26:10

the light, the blood of Christ, which refers to his death, cleanses us from all sin.

26:16

So we don't need to confess our sin. Well, if that's true, why did John even write verse 9?

26:24

Because if we're automatically cleansed from sin throughout our lives,

26:28

then why does he say, if we confess, which doesn't mean to show remorse.

26:35

Sometimes that happens. I mean, let's be honest with ourselves.

26:40

I'm in my eighth decade now, 71, and I've always had a problem with patience.

26:49

I tend to be an impatient person. And when I was a teenager and I would be impatient,

26:55

I'd get upset, I'd get angry, I'd lose my temper.

26:58

I felt really bad about it. And sometimes I would just, Lord, just forgive me.

27:04

I just felt so bad about it.

27:06

But maybe by that time in my life, I'd only really lost my temper or really

27:11

been impatient maybe 2,372 times. Right.

27:15

But since I was 14 or 15, I have probably been impatient and upset and angry

27:21

at least 5,000 times a year just driving on the freeway.

27:24

And so after another 50 years of life, you don't get quite as upset with yourself

27:32

when you get a little impatient, you get a little aggravated with people, or you lose your temper.

27:38

You know it's wrong. You're not trying to justify it. But you just don't generate

27:42

that same kind of remorse that you did when you were young and you were 12 or 13.

27:48

Oh, I can't believe I did that again.

27:51

And so there's no remorse there. Let me give you another example.

27:55

Let's say you get a traffic ticket. Let's say you've had too many traffic tickets.

28:00

That happened to me when I first moved to Connecticut back in 97,

28:04

because on a comparable highway in texas the

28:07

speed limit would be 55 or 60 in connecticut it

28:10

was 45 and within three months i got pulled

28:13

over three times oh boy i when i go before when i went before the judge on the

28:19

third one he says well are you guilty or not well i have no remorse i'm more

28:25

angry at myself than anything but i really don't have any remorse i just say

28:29

yes sir i i was i was speeding i'm sorry i'm.

28:33

I'm from Texas, and they found out I was a pastor, so they let me off.

28:39

Pulled the pastor card on them. That's right. Pulled the pastor card on them.

28:42

So what I'm saying is that when you are in a court of law and the judge is,

28:49

you're indicted for something, the judge says, are you guilty or not?

28:54

It doesn't matter how you feel about it. He doesn't want to know,

28:58

are you remorseful, are you sorry, none of that. You're just simply guilty or not guilty.

29:03

And so when we confess our sin, this is a legal term. And so we're saying,

29:07

Lord, I did this. Now, sometimes we're going to have remorse.

29:11

Sometimes we're going to feel bad. But that's not inherent to the word.

29:15

That's a secondary idea. And so that's what you get. Go back to Psalm 31, Psalm 32. David says,

29:23

I acknowledge, I admit my sin.

29:25

So that's what this means. We just admit our sin because we know Christ died for it.

29:30

And because Christ died for it, when we admit our sin, God instantly forgives

29:35

us of the sin that we mentioned, and then in His grace, He goes on to cleanse

29:39

us from all unrighteousness.

29:42

And that, to me, is the really key idea, because if you go back,

29:46

trace this all the way through the Old Testament,

29:48

the idea of being cleansed from sin in order to enjoy that intimacy with God,

29:56

whether it's in the worship of the temple or whether it comes in the spiritual

30:00

life of the church-age believer, we have to have that recovery from failure, from sin, to be restored to that walk by the Spirit.

30:11

And if you study these terms all through in John 15, you either abide in Christ

30:18

or you don't. It's not a little bit of abiding and a little bit of not abiding.

30:22

You don't have have one foot on one side of the line and one foot on the other side of the line.

30:26

You're either walking in darkness or walking in light. You're either, in Ephesians 5.

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5.16, 5.15, 5.16, you're either walking in wisdom or walking in foolishness.

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All the way through Scripture, it's light and dark. These are absolute categories.

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And when we sin, whether we know it's a sin or not, I don't think matters,

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because sin itself violates the righteous character of God and is going to breach

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that intimacy and that dependence upon God.

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And even if we didn't know it was sin, once we commit some sin,

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then we'll probably ignite another sin off of it.

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And we'll go, oh, yeah, well, I need to confess my sin, get back with the Lord

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and return to walking by the Holy Spirit.

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So Romans 8, Ephesians, Colossians 5, rather, Romans 8, you're either walking

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according to the spirit or walking according to the flesh or the sin nature,

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either one. But they're mutually exclusive.

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I've always liked 1 John 1, 9 in that it says, We'll cleanse you from all unrighteousness.

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In the Old Testament, sacrifices were made for sins that people were conscious

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about, but they're also, they covered their sins of ignorance as well.

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So, I mean, you and I probably sinned today and not realized it in some ways,

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you know, and what we maybe neglected to do.

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Maybe we didn't pray or maybe we didn't share the gospel with somebody that

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was, God had obviously put in front of us.

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So even the sins of ignorance are covered in 1 John 1, 9, and that restores

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our fellowship. Well, those are some good insights about forgiveness.

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Robbie, we appreciate that and appreciate your knowledge of the Word that you bring into the grammar.

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Also, that'll help us appreciate it even more and appreciate what you're doing

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with the Schaeffer Theological Seminary Pastors Conference.

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There's a lot of good people here from all parts of the country,

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and they're here to hear more about the Word of God. and you want to just say

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a final word about what you're doing here with Schaefer Seminary or with your

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church and your ministry. Yes. So we started Chafer Seminary probably about a little over 30 years ago.

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It was an offshoot of an in-church Bible Institute that George Meisinger had

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at his church in Southern California.

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And we had this pastor's conference had actually been going on for several decades before that.

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And George had taken it over back in the mid-70s. And so he made it part of

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this new entity, this this new seminary.

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And a lot of the pastors who came to those conferences were saying that we needed

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to go back to the fundamentals of training pastors to equip the saints to do

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the work of the ministry. They needed to get back to the fundamentals of learning the languages.

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They needed to get back to the fundamentals of the sufficiency of Scripture.

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They needed to get it back to the fundamentals of teaching or instructing people

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from the Word and getting away from a lot of the programs and a lot of the extraneous

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things that might not even be part of the mission of the church that are so

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distracting in so many churches. So we started this school. George took the lead, and then he formed a board

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to separate it from his church in the early 2000s and asked me to serve on the

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board at that time, along with some of these other pastors.

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A couple of years later, he lost his event planner in Southern California and

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asked me if we could do it here. And my secretary had been a former event planner.

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So we took it over. So this is the 19th year that we have hosted the Chaffer

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Seminary Pastors conference. And the focus, everything that we've done is free. We don't charge.

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We do take up an offering. But everything that we provide is on my Dean Bible Ministries website. You go to conferences.

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There'll be a tab for Bible studies. On the left-hand side, it will say conferences.

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You click on that, and you can go back and listen to all of the teaching,

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all of the instructions. We've had conferences where the topic was creation evolution.

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We've had topics on the spiritual life where the whole conference is different

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issues on the spiritual life. We've covered a range of issues that are very important.

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This year, we're looking at Israel, past, present, and future.

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And especially in light of the war that began last October 7th in 2023, that we have Dr.

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Randall Price speaking at night, going through the topic of Israel at war.

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What are the underlying elements? What does the scripture say about who owns

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the land? What does the Scripture say?

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Right now, Dr. Mike Stallard is talking about biblical ethics and reporting on the war.

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So these are very practical issues, but they go to the Scripture for their answer.

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And all you have to do is go to DeanBibleMinistries.org. You click on the Bible

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Studies tab, left-hand column.

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You go to Conferences. You can find your way to the Chafer Conferences that

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are stored there for the last 20 years.

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And then you have more information and more teaching there.

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And then, of course, everything that I've taught for the last 25 years is on

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that website as well. So it is a wealth of information.

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Plus, I've had many, many different guest speakers over the years,

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and all of their material is up there on the website as well.

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Well, I hope people do check out those websites and look at the conference.

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It's being live streamed now, and it's being recorded and archived.

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So be sure to check that out. You know, God's grace is so great that it's amazing.

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That's why we call it amazing, and it forgives us all our sins.

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There's no sin that God cannot forgive. So no matter what we've done, what you've done, God can forgive that sin.

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As an unbeliever, no matter what you've done, don't let your sin keep you from

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knowing Jesus Christ as your Savior. He died for such as you.

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And for us who are believers, we mess up too, and we need God's grace continually

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every day, and we need to continue to walk in fellowship with Him.

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So, Robbie, thank you for those insights. We appreciate that, and we appreciate your ministry, and we appreciate you joining us today.

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So we'll talk to you again. Thank you very much, Charlie. Charlie,

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it's been a real pleasure, and I'm just thankful for your ministry.

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Back when we first got to know each other, which was several decades ago,

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when we were both working on our doctoral degrees at Dallas Seminary,

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and you wrote your dissertation on Lordship Salvation,

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you quoted me in your very first footnote from a newsletter that I had written on Lordship Salvation.

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So our connection goes back many, many years. and I'm very grateful for our

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friendship and partnership in ministry.

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Well, I say amen to that. And I forgot about that footnote. I don't go back

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and read my stuff too much, but appreciate that so much.

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Well, thanks for joining us today and we'll see you again. Bye-bye. All right. Bye-bye.

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Thank you for listening. For more resources or to help spread the message of

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God's life-changing grace, visit our website at gracelife.org.

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Music.