0:03

You are listening to Single Serves. My name is Arnaud Martire and I am your host.

0:13

Single Serves is a podcast dealing with design, architecture,

0:16

business and city building in which I interview an expert on a specific subject matter.

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Together, we dive into that topic and challenge conventional thinking in a thought-provoking

0:26

conversation. conversation. I sincerely hope that you will find these conversations as engaging as I did

0:31

and learn a thing or two in the process. Don't forget to send us your comments, criticism and praise.

0:36

To do so, you can email us at hello at rvltr.studio or leave a comment online.

0:42

You can also subscribe to the podcast on our website at rvltr.studio.

0:47

Music.

0:52

Rachel Cohen-Murison is a designer and entrepreneur based out of Toronto.

0:57

She runs Density, an online planning tool that helps Canadian homeowners understand

1:02

their property's eligibility to build a backyard home.

1:06

She's interested in applying data at a granular level to help policymakers and

1:11

builders make better housing decisions. Check it it out at www.density.build. And density is D E N C I T Y,

1:25

which is a nice pun if I may.

1:29

So thank you very much, Rachel, for joining us on the show.

1:34

Yeah, thanks for having me on. So we're going to start with a really hard question.

1:39

Obviously, that's a joke. But can Can you tell us who you are and what you do

1:43

in your own words in three sentences or less?

1:46

And I'm not going to count the sentences. So it's just a good.

1:49

Hey, OK, tricky. Yeah, I'll try to keep it succinct.

1:53

But basically, I'm a Toronto based designer with an architecture background

1:57

currently involved in the accessory dwelling unit sphere.

2:03

So that means everything backyard home. home. I have developed a software,

2:07

as you said, to allow homeowners to understand their eligibility to build a backyard home.

2:13

I'm a consultant with a marketplace for backyard homes in Canada,

2:18

as well as working alongside with a builder, West Coast builder of modular housing.

2:24

So yeah, everything to do with backyard housing.

2:28

That's great. And I'll be sure to link all those relevant websites in the show description.

2:35

Let's start with the genesis of Density. How did the idea of this business come about?

2:42

Yeah, so it was really during a pandemic. My partner and I had some extra time

2:47

on our hands, as some people did.

2:49

And we saw what was happening with the laneway suite policies in the city,

2:55

More and more homeowners, specifically in Toronto, were interested in understanding

3:00

their eligibility to build backyard homes,

3:03

but they really had very few resources.

3:06

Maybe a Facebook group to ask other homeowners how to build.

3:11

They didn't understand the bylaws. You know, I was getting questions even from

3:16

other clients through work about ADUs, backyard housing, laneway suites in different cities.

3:21

So, yeah, we thought, why not take my architecture background and knowledge,

3:26

being able to decipher bylaws and put that to code with a 2D, 3D interface.

3:32

And that was my partner's strong suit coming from computer science.

3:36

So, yeah, that's kind of how it started. That makes a lot of sense.

3:41

So was there a specific problem that you might want to expand on a little bit

3:48

that you were trying to solve with this platform? form? Yeah, I think so at first it just started off as, you know, a homeowner centric

3:55

tool to better convey to homeowners like exactly their property's eligibility.

4:02

But then it turned into much more of a global mapping tool for us to better

4:08

understand the city and see how many properties are eligible for a one-story or two-story unit.

4:14

What, you know, what is the true impact in terms of a missing middle solution

4:18

that laneway suites or garden suites can have in a city like Toronto.

4:23

And it turns out, you know, there are thousands and thousands of properties

4:27

that could be densified at a very, with a very low bar of entry for homeowners

4:33

to invest in or companies, what have you.

4:37

Yeah. And so it turned into a much bigger thing where where I also kind of pivoted

4:42

from capital A architecture more into kind of understanding bylaws and zoning at a much larger level.

4:50

Yeah. So would it be a fair assessment to say that without a tool like yours,

4:56

homeowners would have to hire some kind of expert to analyze their property

5:01

and tell them what they could do? Yes, definitely. I would also say, though, that this is like a stepping stone.

5:07

I would say density is a stepping stone for homeowners to get into it.

5:12

There's also a cost and calculator that's part of it.

5:14

But, you know, they should still consult a professional to kind of get into

5:19

the weeds with an on-site check, you know, site measure, getting into a full

5:23

design, signing on a design professional or a builder. Of course,

5:27

of course. That makes sense. And so that's been going on for a couple of years now.

5:34

What has been the evolution of the tool and who has it served mostly or what

5:41

kind of use cases did you see come out of your initial idea? idea?

5:46

Yeah, great question. So, you know, at first it was mainly homeowners coming

5:50

to me wanting to pursue further site eligibility studies in person.

5:55

So like they use the tool, but they still have questions.

5:58

Funny enough, even those who I would deem have like a pretty good understanding

6:03

of the bylaw, they still found the tool super useful to clarify their thoughts.

6:08

And then they still might have a few questions, so they would still come to me.

6:12

And yeah, we'd, you know, we'd do an on-site study or I'd send them off to another consultant.

6:18

And so the laneway suites have been legal for a few years now.

6:24

So aside from your tool specifically, how has the uptake, what has the uptake been until now?

6:32

And is it what the city hoped it would be?

6:37

Right, with laneway suites, You know, I have to say, yes, like there are more

6:42

permits being processed in terms of laneway suites, but the true barrier is financing.

6:46

Like if people can't finance, they can't build.

6:50

So regardless of the laneway suite bylaws having been slightly approved upon

6:55

recently in a city like Toronto, gargle suites being made legal as of last autumn, I believe.

7:02

And, you know, even other cities like Hamilton improving, West Coast is improving

7:06

their bylaws. again, if there's not enough financing, then homeowners can't build.

7:11

So what is the barrier in terms of financing that homeowners are facing?

7:17

Because does it require a new form of financing? Is it hard to borrow for this kind of project?

7:23

What are the kind of parameters that people have to deal with?

7:26

Yeah, so that's a really good question. Basically.

7:31

The banks here are not used to seeing products or creating products for backyard homes, right?

7:37

They're used to seeing a primary dwelling and offering a second mortgage or

7:43

home equity line of credit on this. But I believe it takes about 30 laneway suites, let's say in Toronto, to convince a bank.

7:52

This is a mortgage broker of mine, a friend of mine who told me this,

7:56

to then create a product for laneway suites, let alone garden suites, right?

8:01

Yeah, I know. You're seeing home equity line of credit being offered more in

8:05

a city like Toronto, but we're going to have to wait to see the same product

8:10

being offered for garden suites. Yeah. And that's just one prong. There might be government help at one point.

8:18

There might be smaller banks or credit unions offering products in the very near future.

8:27

So let's see. Let's see. So are you saying that to this day,

8:32

there's still no specific financial product for laneway suites?

8:36

I know. I believe that like TD might offer something, a home equity line of

8:41

credit, taking into consideration, you know, again, with these 30 data points

8:47

to offer a financial product, but nothing specific at the moment.

8:51

Yeah, and I see it. I have a neighbor who just got a garden suite approved,

8:57

so he was probably one of the first ones. And he's going to build it himself because he just doesn't have a lot of financing or cash to do it.

9:06

So it's interesting to see that the financing alone can make or break a project.

9:13

So beyond the financing, let's talk a little bit more more about the housing

9:17

shortage, what would you say

9:19

are the main causes of the situation we're in right now, in your opinion?

9:26

Yeah, another, you know, very good question. I would say, you know,

9:31

we've gone through this huge surge in housing costs.

9:35

Obviously, a part of the solution is supply, but it is definitely not all of it.

9:40

There should likely be government intervention at a certain point,

9:45

renter protection, different, you know, hybrid models of like rent geared to

9:51

income, profit sharing, reducing barriers to permitting is very significant.

9:55

Reducing red tape, removing exclusionary zoning.

9:59

All of these are really good mechanisms that I hope will be implemented in the near future.

10:03

And I do see them starting to be implemented throughout Ontario and throughout BC.

10:09

I think in the next few months or by the end of the year,

10:12

we should be hearing from the BC Premier about doing away with single family

10:17

zoning across the whole province and allowing for up to fourplex,

10:22

so multiplexes on every property, as well as an an ADU.

10:25

Oh, that would be great. And I'm glad you mentioned the regulatory issue because

10:30

I've talked to a lot of people about this problem.

10:33

And my conclusion is that a large part of the responsibility in where we are

10:46

today is regulatory in nature. It's the length of permitting, the cost of permitting, the ability that neighbors

10:54

have to throw a monkey wrench into works with the Committee of Adjustment,

11:00

the Committee of Adjustment itself,

11:02

the fact that for even minor variances, you have to go through this incredibly

11:07

onerous and complicated process.

11:11

And I think if politicians, and it's relevant right now because we're about

11:18

to elect a new mayor in Toronto, which will happen before this podcast is released.

11:24

But it's very topical because I think if we could elect someone who realizes

11:29

that they just need to get out of the way and simplify everything,

11:35

taxation is also a major issue in the problem, both with sales tax and development

11:43

charges, which are insane.

11:46

Those are all issues that need to be addressed. And as long as,

11:49

I think as long as, in my opinion, the regulatory environment is not immensely

11:55

simplified, no matter what other solutions we come up with,

12:00

increased density, as of right, laneway suites, garden suites, whatever else,

12:04

it's not going to solve those problems and still going to be just as complicated to build anything.

12:11

The problem is that it, and I don't want to get political, but the,

12:17

it seems like the front runners in the mayoral race are not really particularly good on the issue.

12:25

So if we don't elect someone who's going to solve that problem in Toronto,

12:30

I'm not talking about elsewhere. I don't know what it isn't like in other cities, but I have a hunch that it's a similar problem.

12:37

Them what what are is are there

12:40

any other options for people to just

12:43

for us as a as a

12:45

culture or society to make it happen because if

12:48

we can't rely on politicians maybe we have to take the matter in

12:51

our own hands right yeah yeah i know it's incredibly frustrating and i agree

12:56

with you in terms of like the political stakeholders like they definitely are

13:02

a significant piece of the pie They are the ones who will have control over taxation,

13:10

changing the way things are with the development charges, property tax, everything.

13:15

In terms of, you know, I don't want to say mechanisms to, like there is a potential

13:24

for private industry to try to come in and suggest things to the government.

13:29

Government i'm i'm also involved with a group

13:32

called adu search they were funded by the cmhc

13:35

and round one of the housing supply challenge i'm involved as a

13:38

consultant with them to try to help them develop a marketplace for adus across

13:42

the country and for sure like you know they're talking to government entities

13:47

we're all trying to push for the same thing but even in terms of one little

13:53

little piece of the pie that they can take off as a marketplace.

13:56

It's enough to at least try to show the government for now, like,

14:01

this is a viable market, homeowners are interested.

14:04

Now you need to try to push things on your end to reduce permitting times,

14:08

defer development costs for affordable housing or for low-level development, right?

14:15

Push taxation in a different way, perhaps. Yeah. I always like to think in terms

14:21

of solving problems by looking at the incentives that all parties involved are dealing with.

14:29

Is there a way to incentivize politicians, maybe it's with an increased tax

14:35

base or whatever the case may be, to convince them that it's also in their interests to do it and that facing

14:45

the wrath of NIMBYs might be worth the trouble.

14:50

Yeah, I mean, look, you could provide the government with an opportunity cost,

14:54

right, of how many workers and what percentage of your tax basis will you lose

14:59

if you don't develop the housing for your key skilled and unskilled workers in the near future.

15:05

You'll lose hospital workers you'll lose everyone from

15:09

every industry if you don't provide them housing so someone needs to do this

15:14

study yeah that would be very interesting to see because you hear you often

15:20

hear that the you know most canadians retirement.

15:26

Money is tied in housing and the idea that

15:29

you buy something increases in increases

15:32

in value over the course of your lifetime and you sell it when you retire them

15:37

to to downsize and you use the proceeds to fund your retirement do you think

15:42

there's any danger if that's truly the case and it seems to be for for a large

15:48

portion of the population that if you increased supply supply,

15:52

their nest egg might suffer?

15:56

Or is there such a shortage that no matter how much we build,

16:00

prices won't come down for a long, long while?

16:03

And how would you address that issue? Because I think that's one of the reasons,

16:07

primary reasons, even though they don't necessarily openly speak about it,

16:11

why NIMBYs oppose new developments is that they're afraid that their property

16:14

values are going to go down. Can you speak to that?

16:19

Yeah. So you're wondering if we put in changes or if the property values come

16:25

down, that they will lose their nest egg to pay for their retirement.

16:28

I would counter that by saying, well, what will you get again once all your

16:34

skilled workers leave in terms of those providing you with healthcare,

16:37

with working at the grocery grocery store, everyone around you in a community

16:43

that you need to interact and survive with.

16:47

And also, why not give others a chance?

16:51

I'm not even saying the next generation need to be property owners.

16:54

They could equally be renters, but allow them to have an opportunity to thrive

16:59

in the same country that you've thrived in as well.

17:03

There are alternate models to to get to a, you know, a sustainable retirement

17:11

than taking it through your house.

17:15

Even as a renter, again, you could do renter focused or rent geared to income

17:20

profit sharing models, the likes of which I've seen work relatively well in Europe.

17:27

Again, we don't need to even crash everyone's house value to bring in some sort

17:33

of step for first-time homebuyers or renters to achieve some sort of stability

17:40

in their lives in Canada, but something needs to change.

17:43

Yeah, and I was just being the devil's advocate. Obviously, I don't believe

17:47

that there's any danger of those values going down because you would increase the supply.

17:52

If anything, they go down because if the interest rates keep going up and the

18:00

mortgage terms get redefined and people get upside down on their mortgage and

18:06

default, then that's what could...

18:08

If the prices keep going up, basically, and as well as the interest rates,

18:13

that's what could crash the market. You could have a similar crisis as what you had in the States in 2008.

18:18

And there's also apparently, from what I understand, a lot of evidence that

18:24

if you increase the housing supply, that generally increases the value of the properties around it.

18:30

Because if you have more valuable properties, say, because you can put fourplexes

18:34

by as of right, the houses in the neighborhood will benefit from it as well.

18:40

More people doesn't mean devalued property, quite the opposite.

18:44

There's a lot of dancer cities in the world, Paris, New York,

18:49

London, where property values are insane and they have a lot more people than we do.

18:56

Anyway, that's a bit of a digression. I think it's going to be a battle of not just logic, because logic doesn't work in those instances.

19:08

It's really about showing people that it's in their best interests to let others build,

19:18

and incentivizing them in some sense, politicians or NIMBYs or other stakeholders

19:23

in the process by showing that they will benefit from it as well.

19:29

Because I think that the problem we're seeing right now is there's a bit of

19:34

a battle of of wills between people who don't want to increase density because

19:40

there are the incumbents with the property values that have gone through the

19:43

roof and have benefited from it. And the people like me and perhaps you as well, who haven't been lucky enough

19:50

to enter the market at the right time and are now finding ourselves in a more

19:56

precarious situation than even five or 10 years ago.

20:00

And instead of pitting one against each other, I think it's really about showing

20:04

showing each side that they can all benefit from increased density and more

20:10

vibrant culture and society,

20:13

especially in a big city like Toronto that keeps on growing and never seems to stop.

20:18

That's it. That's it. And we all want to be part of this city, so.

20:22

Yeah, so far. I mean, it makes you want to leave, but that's a different story.

20:28

So let's talk a little bit about your tool more. What's the role of data in

20:33

urban planning, policymaking, and design?

20:37

Yeah, so I'd say, you know, it's kind of multifaceted, but in terms of what

20:43

we do with density, you know, there's a front end, so homeowner facing app.

20:48

But as I mentioned, there's also the back end. We're able to apply a data science

20:52

approach to analyze all this data and see, you know, what the ideal footprint

20:56

is for a laneway suite or a garden suite.

20:58

You know, also kind of envisioning something in a 3D tool is pretty useful for

21:05

a city like Toronto or Vancouver, where there are all these like angular plane requirements.

21:10

And from a homeowner's perspective, yeah, it's another regulatory hurdle we

21:15

need to do away with. Sure, sure, exactly.

21:18

Yeah, maybe a carryover from more NIMBY policies of the past,

21:22

but especially in Vancouver. But yeah, that's kind of something to help people at a very vernacular level

21:30

understand bylaws as applied to space. space.

21:34

So yeah, yeah. And we've kind of extended this into Sechelt as well.

21:40

You'll notice on our website, it's not just Toronto.

21:42

We also offer Sechelt, BC on the Sunshine Coast, kind of small city north of Vancouver.

21:49

So you can kind of play around with putting one of the row homes on a property there.

21:56

And so the data you work with, you said part of it is collecting from the people

22:01

who use your tool, but the existing data that allows you to perform those analyses,

22:10

is that data that's freely available?

22:13

Like, how did you get access to it? Yeah, so the data you can actually find on Toronto's open data portal.

22:21

Anyone can go in and download. They have, you know, different iterations every

22:26

few months, updates to the data, and it's all kind of GIS-based, so geospatial.

22:32

And so that data is basically open source and you're building a tool on top

22:36

of that to do those analyses of people's properties, right?

22:42

That's it. Yeah. And I inject the bylaw kind of info on top of the geospatial

22:47

through code. And that's what you get at the end of the day.

22:52

So let's broaden the conversation even a little more.

22:56

And because you're kind of at the forefront, I think, of developing tech-based

23:03

tools to simplify the process and maximize people's property values.

23:09

Values, what do you think the future is looking like when we're talking about

23:14

applying tech to architecture planning or construction?

23:18

Yeah, so I would also just go back there a little note about maximizing property values.

23:23

Although that is obviously a concern that homeowners want to preserve their

23:27

property value, not have it go down. It's not always the impetus behind building. A lot of homeowners from the survey

23:34

I did with Density a few months ago, their primary motive was actually to house family.

23:39

And then second was rental income, third was agent place, and there were a few

23:44

other reasons to go back. Yeah. Well, that's exactly what my neighbor is doing.

23:47

He's in the garden suite to house his kids because they can't afford to live in the city of his.

23:54

That's it. And when he gets to retirement age, his kids can take over the main

23:59

house and he can move into the garden suite as his retirement home,

24:03

basically. That's the whole idea. So I could I could totally see that playing out literally in my backyard.

24:09

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But in terms of, I guess you asked about the future

24:13

of, you know, tech as applied to architecture, planning, etc.

24:19

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so the way I see it, you know, there are a few kind of companies

24:26

in the picture right now that are doing something similar to Density in terms

24:31

of providing a digital planning tool,

24:34

whether it be ADU Search, Ratio City in Toronto,

24:37

Symbium out of California. Yeah.

24:41

They have a very interesting model called comp law.

24:44

I believe they've kind of submitted their own, they've created their own word

24:51

there, computational law. But basically, all of us kind of operate in this realm of applying geospatial

24:59

data in a kind of an online software to allow homeowners, policymakers,

25:05

planning and permitting offices to speed up processes, right?

25:09

So the way I see it, there will be more and more city-based permitting softwares.

25:15

That's what Symbium is doing with their build product in, I believe,

25:19

a few municipalities in California.

25:22

Yeah, RatioCity helps developers and planners better understand property-based densification.

25:30

ADU Search, again, going more into the marketplace, but they help homeowners

25:34

understand ADU viability in people's backyards.

25:38

So yeah, I see that as being one branch.

25:42

I think there will also be more like vertically integrated housing products

25:46

that kind of operate with the software, kind of might have a prefab solution,

25:51

but go from beginning to end with homeowners as a full vertical product.

25:57

Yeah. At what time interval do you think we'll start seeing some solutions like that?

26:05

Because you've kind of hinted at the issue in the preparation for this,

26:12

and I've talked about this many, many times with other guests.

26:17

The way we build is basically the same as it was 100 years ago, or at least 50 years ago.

26:25

It hasn't really changed. The quality of building maybe has gone up or the technical

26:31

performance of building has gone up. I don't know if the quality has, but the performance has, but that's about it.

26:37

And it's increasingly more expensive to build even if you, especially if you

26:46

compare to other industries where the prices of materials and products keeps going down.

26:52

Or if it doesn't go go down, you continuously get more for what you pay.

26:58

So if you take computers, for example, the computer today is probably just about as expensive as it was.

27:05

It's probably cheaper than it was 30 years ago, but it's also a hundred times

27:08

or a thousand times faster. And I still can't figure out why we haven't seen efficiency and cost gains in

27:18

the architecture and building building industry, because if anything,

27:22

it should be going down, not up. What's your take on that?

27:28

I know that's a really tricky one. I think it's going to take a builder who

27:31

is executing something, again, maybe one of these vertically integrated products

27:36

that's likely prefab, but at such a scale that there's an efficiency there.

27:43

Where materials are sourced more cheaply, fabrication is so streamlined.

27:47

Cost of labor may be the same as any other worker,

27:50

but you've just made their time that much more efficient, cut down on,

27:55

say, 70% of the inefficient time use at a labor level, that brings in huge efficiencies

28:01

later on in terms of the end price. Also, if you can truly harness, again, do it away with all the red tape and

28:08

leverage low barrier of entry housing options that don't require as much permitting,

28:16

that don't require as hefty development charges,

28:19

that will cut down hugely on the end price of a project, right?

28:23

Like when I'm talking to a city planner in Kelowna about ADUs,

28:28

and I mentioned how Toronto has deferred development charges for, I believe,

28:33

20 years, which may be too long of a time on their ADUs, as long as you live

28:38

on the property, maybe it's 15 years.

28:40

The Kelowna office says, oh, maybe we should think about that.

28:46

Maybe we should be reducing or deferring development charges to just let in

28:51

a lower barrier of entry, low level housing option. So, yeah.

28:56

And so there was a company that showed promise in vertically integrating everything

29:01

that was Katerra that went belly up a couple of years ago.

29:04

And we haven't really seen any things like that since or even before.

29:10

And so the promise of, at least in the case of prefabrication to being the solution

29:16

to or woes has failed to materialize as far as I'm concerned.

29:21

Maybe there are things happening that I'm not aware of.

29:24

Because architects have been talking about prefabrication for decades,

29:28

but it's never become mainstream. It's still a niche kind of service or product.

29:34

Do you have any idea why? That architecture is such a niche product?

29:40

No, that prefabrication has remained niche when it's been touted as this solution

29:48

that could solve all the problems? And why isn't it adopted more broadly?

29:54

Yeah, so I think there's one thing, which is literally the construction constraints.

30:00

What kind of prefab are we talking about? Panelized versus modular?

30:04

If it's modular, you're looking at what can fit on a tractor,

30:07

on a truck bed, basically, to ship to site. so that has literal volumetric constraints

30:13

and then what a crane can crane in. In terms of panelization, again, are you getting around...

30:21

You know, you have certain advantages as a modular builder if you can get CSA approval, right?

30:28

And if you can get everything permitted in factory with the modular volumetric, great.

30:33

Because then you get 80% of the construction and permitting out of the way. Just put it on site.

30:37

But again, if you can't put that in with the crane at the scale and size that

30:43

could fit on a truck and you need to go panelized,

30:45

that might still require more permitting and checking and planning to get that

30:51

on site once it's on site, which might just make it at the same level of complexity and having the same

30:58

timeline as building on site, potentially.

31:01

Yeah, I think from what I understand, modular is the more promising of the two.

31:06

It's more constrained in terms of what you can design, But there's ways around that.

31:10

The panelized system, what I've been told by clients who use it regularly is

31:16

that it produces better built, better performing buildings, but they're not cheaper.

31:24

It costs about the same, maybe a little more, but you just get higher quality buildings. buildings.

31:29

You will. Yeah, for sure. Like higher thermal, you know, very good thermal ratings,

31:34

higher quality, it's not left in the rain while you're building.

31:37

So of course, like, hey, if you want to pay the same, but just get a higher

31:41

quality product, great. But again, I still think a builder needs to come in at volume and just produce these quickly.

31:48

You can also look to Quebec because I do believe Quebec pricing with their modular

31:52

builds, both panelized and volumetric is still more affordable based on labor

31:57

costs there and material costs. Yeah, I've heard that before as well. So we've covered a lot of ground and we

32:06

kind of went all over the map in terms of the housing shortage and what are

32:12

some of the causes and the solution. How would you summarize our conversation in a couple sentences?

32:18

What would you want our listeners to take away from this? Yeah.

32:24

So I just want to end by saying, you know, why I'm interested in ADUs and missing

32:31

middle is because we are, again, in this time of immense housing insecurity,

32:37

housing shortages across the country. So I personally am interested in understanding the three barriers for missing

32:44

middle, which are financing, construction and permitting.

32:48

And that's how I kind of situate myself with the work that I'm doing with density,

32:52

with the companies that I consult with, you know, the government entities I

32:56

speak with, because ADUs are part of the solution, not all.

33:01

And I just love to see more options out there.

33:05

There is a healthy environment of other startups coming in who are also interested

33:10

in this, like Partna, which is offering alternative financial solutions to Canadian homeowners.

33:16

You know, again, ADU Search, Rowe Homes, all these people who are trying to

33:20

improve with these three barriers.

33:23

It'll take time, but I see it happening already.

33:27

That's a great positive note to end on because it's easy to get frustrated when

33:32

talking about this issue. I want to thank you very much for your time.

33:38

The last question I would have for you is what has been your favorite part of

33:43

this interview? Favorite part?

33:47

You know, just getting to speak about all of this again and kind of tie this

33:53

back to the more global issues we face and realizing I'm not alone in my struggle as well.

33:59

I believe you and others, you're thinking the exact same things.

34:02

It's just good that we have a forum, you know, through podcasts like this to

34:06

kind of express ourselves and discuss solutions.

34:09

So, yeah, I think conversations like these are where solutions start to emerge.

34:14

So it's very important to have them. That's it. Well, thanks again for your time. It was a great pleasure to have

34:20

you on the podcast, and hopefully it's not the last time. For sure.

34:24

For sure. Anytime. I know. Hey, Arnaud here. I hope you've enjoyed this episode and that you'll come back for more.

34:34

Please share with your friends and colleagues and remember to subscribe on our

34:37

website at rvltr.studio.

34:41

Until next time, ciao. Music.