Before leaking the Pentagon Papers, Daniel Ellsberg helped develop America’s nuclear program in the 1960s. On this episode, Ellsberg explains why he believes we should view that program as a “doomsday machine” — and he details why he thinks the threat of total nuclear annihilation remains more imminent than ever. During the conversation, we also talked about Ellsberg’s time as a whistleblower — and whether it has become easier or more difficult for whistleblowers to sound the alarm about government misdeeds. We also talked about Ellsberg’s time being surveilled by the government — and how the new tools of surveillance are even more powerful than the ones he faced.