0:00

Hey , I'm Melissa Moore and welcome to Unshackling

0:02

The Soul podcast . These are conversations

0:04

that will hopefully drop the stigma around talking

0:07

about difficult things and along

0:09

the way , I hope you learn , I hope you laugh

0:12

and I just want you to know I appreciate

0:14

you being here . I'm glad you're here and

0:16

I also believe if you found this podcast I always believe

0:18

you found it for a reason . I am

0:20

so glad you're back this week for part two of our conversation

0:23

with Kevin Petersen . He's a licensed

0:25

marriage and family therapist , also the founder

0:27

of the Chronic Hope Institute , which

0:29

provides family addiction coaching for families

0:32

in crisis due to addiction and codependency

0:35

. He's a published author Chronic Hope

0:37

Parenting the Addicted Child and

0:39

Chronic Hope Families and Addiction

0:41

. And Kevin , I want to pick

0:43

up kind of where we left off last week

0:45

, talking about secrets

0:47

in a family where there's addiction

0:50

and just the wearing of those secrets

0:52

.

0:53

Oh my God , because there's nothing more important

0:55

. You know my family , when

0:57

we went to holidays and we had

0:59

family that lived an hour or so , within an hour's

1:01

drive , we didn't show up a couple of

1:03

minutes late , we showed up hours late

1:05

oh wow Hours . And

1:08

we always had we rehearsed the story in the car , you

1:11

know , and we always had . It was always

1:13

because of X or because of Y , or blah

1:15

, blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah . And it was just like I

1:17

was taught as a child when I answered

1:19

the phone . You know , back in the old days when we had these phones

1:21

around the walls that had these wires and stuff dials

1:23

, I was taught when I

1:26

answered the phone to say you know , peterson

1:28

residents , this is Kevin speaking out , can I help you

1:30

? And they're like , oh , is your mom right there

1:32

? Nope , and

1:34

they could be standing next to me . And they're like nope

1:37

, and can I take a message please

1:39

? And I look back on it now

1:41

and it's like an eight-year-old is telling whoever's

1:44

on the phone yeah , my parents aren't home , yeah

1:46

. You know I'm like , well

1:48

, that's loony tunes , but that

1:50

was you know , that was it . That was

1:52

the rule . Absolutely

1:55

Nope , never changed that rule . That

1:57

was the law .

1:58

What I think is interesting , as you're talking about the

2:01

secrets , is and I'll tell you

2:03

very briefly the story . So I'm

2:05

in marriage counseling and

2:07

she's a sex addict professional

2:11

Like she's trained and all that stuff whatever and

2:14

so that's her specialty . But the one

2:16

thing that has bothered me for years is

2:19

that she said to keep the secret

2:21

about what happened . She

2:23

told you that , yes , yes , not

2:26

to tell anybody about what happened because it would cause more shame

2:29

. And

2:32

so , yeah , and I look back and that is . That

2:34

is that point where I

2:37

got sicker and sicker because I had to keep

2:39

the secret , keep the image , yeah

2:42

, and now I'm like , no , no , that

2:44

was the worst that was , that was so unhealthy

2:46

because , as you're talking about those family

2:49

dynamics and keeping secrets , that's

2:51

all it was . It was keeping a secret

2:53

, it was keeping a facade , it was not

2:55

allowing . I mean , this is you

2:57

know , this was gosh , what you know several

3:00

, several years ago at this point . But

3:02

the fact that that is what somebody who

3:05

was trained in this field , who studied

3:07

in Arizona with the top guy

3:09

supposedly that

3:11

was the advice , and for

3:13

me the secrets are just . They

3:16

are the gateway to living in the dark

3:18

and to keeping that addiction and

3:20

to keeping the codependency and to keeping

3:22

all of that flourishing . They're

3:24

like fertilizer , that's

3:27

amazing , I you know .

3:28

it's interesting is that I actually I know

3:30

who you're talking about in Arizona and

3:33

that , to be totally blunt , that they don't advocate

3:35

that . No , I couldn't imagine that that

3:37

was your therapist . I don't know what

3:39

that was going on there , but they actually they're

3:41

big on disclosure , you know . And now

3:44

by that I mean this is what

3:46

I tell my . This is all the families that I work with

3:48

. They're like oh , what do I say about

3:50

so-and-so's addiction ? I'm like what do you

3:52

mean ? Well , but don't I need to tell

3:54

everybody . I'm like , no , it's none of your business , right

3:57

, you know that's his business . You

3:59

know His or her business . Now , if

4:01

somebody asks you and says , hey , you

4:04

know , I noticed

4:06

your family members been gone

4:08

30 to 45 days , yeah

4:10

, they're on a cruise , yeah

4:13

right . Yeah , there's

4:15

nothing wrong with you saying , oh yeah , they're

4:18

in treatment for whatever oh really

4:20

why ? Sorry , it's not

4:22

my job to tell their story , yeah

4:24

.

4:25

And by the way .

4:25

I'm talking about someone friends close , not

4:27

you know . I'm not like telling everybody

4:30

, I mean you know , because my dad

4:32

was , like you know , when I started going to

4:34

AA my dad was like what do I tell people

4:36

? I'm like what do you mean ?

4:37

He goes well what do I tell them ?

4:38

I'm like , oh , just tell them , I quit drinking and

4:40

then I'm taking care of myself and if they have questions

4:43

they can call me . Yes , yes , and

4:45

he was like okay , cool , and you know , in that

4:47

scenario , you know the

4:50

, you know the theater . I don't

4:52

know where the therapist was coming from on that , because that

4:54

the one thing , but the one thing I always

4:56

tell the families that I work with is

4:59

it's not your story to tell . You

5:01

can tell your story . Yes , I

5:03

have a partner , I have a child that struggles with

5:05

addiction and this is how it affects my life

5:07

.

5:08

Yes , but it's not okay for you to tell their story

5:10

, and I would a hundred percent agree with you on

5:12

that one . But did not be able to tell

5:14

your story or what happened , or

5:17

? Oh yeah , yeah , I mean it

5:19

.

5:19

just you live in the darkness and

5:21

Well you know , one of those goofy

5:23

little things we always have in recovery

5:26

is that you're only as sick as your secrets . You

5:28

know .

5:29

And I a hundred percent believe that . Yeah

5:31

, I do , and I've seen it in my own

5:34

life and I've seen it in others because

5:36

it also . Yeah , there's something weird

5:38

that happens when one

5:40

spouse is told to keep a

5:42

secret for the other spouse

5:44

and now the relationship is another

5:47

level of unhealthy . And , you

5:50

know , part of it may have been she was a Christian

5:52

therapist too , so

5:54

I feel like there may have been a little

5:57

that that may have played a big role in it too

5:59

of don't he's the

6:01

man of the house , he's the whatever blah you

6:03

know we could go down

6:05

several roads on this one . I won't even go there anymore

6:07

, but but it was very .

6:09

it was very after first of all

6:11

, I'm so sorry that happened to you , because nobody

6:14

deserves that and nobody deserves to be treated

6:16

that way . And the last thing you want to be told

6:18

is it's your job to perpetuate

6:21

the problem , right ? You know you're like no , I'm

6:23

trying to get out of this . You know and and

6:26

and you know , to be totally clear with you I got sober

6:29

when I was 27 , in 1991

6:31

. And my mother never got sober , you know , and

6:33

my mother died in 2014 of

6:36

long term prescription drug use . You know

6:38

, when she was in the hospital , she had three artifacts

6:40

and she was in the ICU in

6:42

Lafayette a good Sam , and you know

6:44

. The doctor came out and I

6:47

was on call . My sister and I had

6:49

developed the system right . I was on call

6:51

, so I went and my sister

6:53

and the doctor came out and he's like so I'm really sorry

6:55

. And I'm like , oh , it's okay . And he's like , really , I'm

6:57

like , yeah , dude , I mean I'm

6:59

not surprised . And he's like I'm

7:01

sad , it's my mom . I love my mom , but

7:03

this is terrible . I mean this is awful , but I

7:06

mean this is no surprise . And he's like your dad

7:08

is in the waiting room balling

7:11

saying this is such a shock

7:13

. And we're all like there's no

7:15

way she has this

7:17

much drugs in her body toxic

7:20

. She's so toxic he was . I can't

7:22

give her anything . There's nothing

7:24

I can do . She's got . Most people

7:26

come in here . We're like , oh , we can do this . We

7:28

can put this drug in . That'll fix it . She

7:31

already has that , you know . And I'm like , yeah , I

7:33

know . And he's like , oh

7:35

okay . I said , yeah , I'm a therapist

7:37

, this is what I do Bubble bloods where I come from

7:39

. And I said , you know , I love my dad

7:41

, I love my dad . My dad died two years ago . I love

7:43

my dad . But I mean , you know that's

7:46

, that's now we're talking . Now we're into the entire

7:48

environment . Right , you know the secret . Like

7:50

it didn't happen . I don't know what you're talking about . Your mother

7:52

didn't have a problem Like dad . Everybody

7:56

knew , you know . I mean

7:58

, come on .

7:59

But it was easier to buy into the secret

8:01

versus admit it .

8:03

Yeah , he had learned that in his childhood , sure

8:05

.

8:05

You know it is . It is so generational .

8:08

Oh my God , I mean , it's just . It's the

8:10

gift that keeps on giving .

8:12

You know it's the gift that keeps

8:14

on giving , Clark yeah yeah

8:16

, it's the game the whole family can play . Yeah , it's the

8:18

jelly of the month club . Yeah

8:20

.

8:21

I mean , it's really , it's nutty , it's just

8:23

absolutely nutty . And and

8:25

I'll tell you and

8:27

you know one of the things that I always tell

8:29

people , so that people always want to then they come to me like all

8:31

right , well , what do I ? Do you ? Know , I have a loved

8:33

one . Where do we go ? Are

8:36

we ready to get to the solution you want ?

8:38

to go there . Do

8:40

it , do it , all right .

8:41

Okay . So you

8:43

know , I always tell them well , you know , you

8:46

can't expect them to do something . You're not willing

8:49

to do so . And they're like well

8:51

, what do you mean ? I'm like well , so

8:54

the most effective way to

8:56

fix a family system is to

8:58

fix you , not to

9:00

fix them . And they're

9:02

like okay , what else you got ? You know

9:05

like , yeah , no , I know , because that's going to be hard

9:07

, right , and and , but it's . But what

9:09

you got to do is really tighten up and take

9:11

care of yourself and start

9:13

saying things like I don't agree

9:15

with that . I mean , you're an adult , you can do what you want . But

9:17

if you're going to do that , I am not going to participate

9:20

, or or I'm going to create

9:22

distance . Or if you're going to continue and you're

9:24

in the situation you're talking about , you know , seeing

9:26

other people , I'm going to call a lawyer and

9:28

I'm not I'm not yelling , throwing tantrums

9:31

and threatening and trying to get you to

9:33

behave I'm like oh , no , no , I get it

9:35

, you're an adult , that's your choice . But

9:37

then here's my choice right , you

9:39

know , and I'm going to take care of me . Yeah

9:41

, and , and , and . That's what it really comes down

9:43

to . That's the number one thing . You have to learn how to

9:46

do is set an appropriate boundary , have

9:48

an accountability function to the boundary and

9:50

then have a system of rewards and consequences

9:53

behind that boundary . And remember , the boundary

9:55

isn't about them , it's

9:57

about you , right ? You know ? It's about

10:00

you saying this is far as I go , and

10:03

, and , and . If you're going to choose to go there

10:05

, I'm just not going to go with you , right

10:07

, and I'm going to move on . You know

10:09

, and God bless you and I hope it works out .

10:11

But you know that's what the

10:13

initial stage of recovery

10:16

for the codependent or the trauma

10:18

survivor looks like is getting

10:20

now that takes getting help you

10:22

know I was going to say I don't feel like I

10:24

was mentally there , I don't feel

10:26

like I was such a mess when

10:28

I found out that the life

10:30

I thought we lived , there were two

10:33

separate lives going on and I had no idea

10:35

about life number two . And

10:37

you know , you go back and you look

10:39

and you say , man , I wish I could have said

10:41

hey , this isn't working for me . Instead

10:44

, codependency flares up . And so

10:46

, yeah , it's really interesting

10:48

when you are married to an

10:50

addict and you yourself have

10:53

been the codependent , they've been

10:55

the addict , and then you don't

10:57

trust yourself , you don't know what to

10:59

do . You're in therapy

11:01

together , so it's not really like you're working

11:04

on yourself . All of a sudden you're in marriage therapy

11:06

and it's like , well , wait a minute , this

11:08

is how can I work on me ? And you're here

11:11

and it's very messy .

11:14

Yeah , and you're absolutely right , and

11:16

that's one of the things that I do as

11:19

a licensed marriage and family therapist . When I work with

11:21

a couple , I

11:23

am insistent that they're both seeing someone

11:25

individually and working out their

11:27

own stuff . And because couples

11:29

therapy is not intended to

11:31

be focused on one person's situation

11:33

, it's intended to be focused

11:35

on the system and how the system is existing

11:38

and how we can fix that and change that

11:40

and move that towards a different direction . But

11:44

I have some terrible therapy stories

11:46

. Oh yeah , my

11:48

current wife and I saw someone in

11:50

Denver and it was a disaster , Just

11:53

an absolute disaster , and

11:55

I look back on it now and I was like , oh God

11:58

, I mean that was just what the

12:00

heck , was that all ?

12:01

about Right , right . And then I

12:03

think sometimes you have to say

12:05

you know what , it's just not gonna work , or

12:09

this is so unhealthy , this is so

12:11

you know . I remember the therapist

12:13

. I finally found that was good and

12:16

I think this was our third or fourth marriage therapist

12:18

. She goes okay , if you wanna

12:20

stay in this marriage , we have to blow it up and

12:22

start over because it is so unhealthy

12:24

. And I remember looking at her

12:26

and I said I wouldn't choose him again , I

12:29

don't wanna be here . And it was

12:31

finally that moment of clarity after

12:33

16 years of oh

12:35

, if that's what it takes , I don't want this . I'm

12:38

so full of hate and resentment . And I've

12:40

gotten healthy and he hasn't , and it was just such

12:42

a mess . But it took how

12:45

many different marriage therapists

12:47

and how many different states to

12:49

finally get to that point . But I was also

12:51

getting healthier . I was seeing somebody else on my

12:53

own and that was

12:56

the difference .

12:57

Yeah , that's . The key is that you

12:59

can't go into marriage and couples therapy or family

13:01

therapy for that matter thinking you're gonna fix

13:03

the other person Right and

13:06

the goal is to fix the system . And

13:08

, by the way , you're part of the system , yes

13:10

, and you have to acknowledge

13:12

the role that you play in the system . And

13:14

that's not to say that the other person might be

13:16

having an addiction problem or something glaringly

13:19

obvious . But a good

13:21

therapist knows that's just

13:24

what's on the surface . We gotta

13:26

get underneath that . And

13:28

if this is an addiction situation

13:30

that's been going on for years , it's like okay

13:32

, so why aren't

13:34

we doing something about that ? What's the story here

13:37

? Why are we here ? What's

13:39

? Why aren't you handling your addiction and why are you tolerating

13:41

their addiction ? It's like , oh

13:43

, no , no , I just want you to fix them . It's

13:45

like , no , I don't do that Right . And

13:49

that's really the key piece . And that's hard

13:51

right Because , like we said , the

13:54

profile of the codependent is that I'm

13:56

right , I'm not the one causing the problem . I

13:59

make sure the kids are fed , I put them to bed , I

14:01

clean the house , I cook the food , I

14:03

put the money on the table . I do all those things

14:05

you know , while Bozo over

14:07

here is blowing things up or

14:09

is asleep on the couch or is just completely

14:11

out of it , you know , and it's like how can

14:13

I have a problem ? I'm not the problem , right

14:16

? Well , yeah , but you are , because

14:18

you're perpetuating the lie , you

14:22

know , and let's get you some help and let's get

14:24

you to a place where you don't do that anymore , right

14:26

, and let's see how that impacts

14:29

the relationship .

14:30

Right , right , and then the wheels pop off

14:32

the bus for some of us .

14:35

Some of us and some others of us . You know , what

14:37

happens is that , like you said , it's like we

14:39

blow the thing up and they're like oh no

14:42

, I don't want to lose you . Ok , well then

14:44

these things have to change , OK . And

14:46

then it's not about punishing the person

14:49

, it's like saying so , let's get

14:51

you the help that you need , let's

14:53

get you what you need to fix this Right

14:55

.

14:56

You know , and on both sides , no

14:58

, I agree , I agree and I think that's

15:00

why I love . The first step is taking care of you

15:02

.

15:04

Oh yeah , you know , powerless over blank

15:06

and our lives have become unmanageable

15:08

, you know , and and this the second

15:10

half of the first step our lives have become unmanageable

15:12

. Is so critical ? Yeah , because that means we're

15:14

gonna have to start taking a look at the way we live

15:16

, the way we act and the way we treat

15:18

people . Yep , you know , and that's

15:21

what has to change right , and

15:23

sometimes we don't know .

15:23

Our lives have become unmanageable , until

15:25

something does blow up . Yeah

15:28

, yeah , absolutely because

15:30

you thought you had all the plates spitting .

15:33

That was my favorite analogy . I'm like remember

15:35

the Bob Billak or the guys back there spinning all the plates

15:37

? Yeah , and they're like , am

15:40

I like ? Yeah , okay , let the plates drop .

15:42

And they're like so tough .

15:44

I'm like let the plates drop . What's I

15:46

had ? We had a great my . I had a great

15:48

therapist . My first marriage marriage

15:51

wasn't great , therapist , great . And and and

15:53

she said I want you to consider

15:55

that there are three baskets . There's

15:57

the a basket , the B basket and the C basket

16:00

. A is life-threatening

16:02

. A is like the kid is

16:04

choking . Okay , the

16:06

house is on fire . You know that's

16:08

an a basket issue . A B

16:10

basket is we probably need to

16:12

figure something out pretty darn quick here , but

16:15

no one's gonna die , you know

16:17

it's . We've got to come up with a solution . A See

16:20

basket is . You know , sometime in the next

16:22

couple months we're gonna have to sort this out , but

16:24

it's not a crisis . And she's like here's the

16:26

one rule you can't

16:28

put Stuff in

16:31

the a basket that belongs in the B basket

16:33

and she goes . I want to give you a hint there's

16:35

very little that goes in the a basket

16:37

. A basket is like someone

16:40

has cancer , you know , and

16:42

as she goes , and that's not your situation . So

16:45

you guys got a quit living in this spiral

16:47

of trauma and the spiral of chaos

16:50

and crisis , right , and you've

16:52

got to start . You know , and you got to start

16:54

, and the way you do that is by dealing with your own stuff

16:56

. Yep , favorite favorite phrase you

16:58

know , you know , you know me , I have my catches

17:00

. And my wife says we're gonna print t-shirts

17:03

and it's gonna say Happy families

17:05

come from happy individuals . Happy

17:07

individuals work on their shit , everybody

17:09

has shit . And and on the back

17:12

it's gonna say and of course we're gonna

17:14

talk about your child .

17:18

It just all comes back there . I

17:20

mean even just learning from the start

17:22

of our conversation today that

17:24

codependency is now family of origin trauma

17:26

. Yeah , yeah , that one's gonna

17:28

stick with me . I'm gonna call my sister , be like holy

17:31

shit , guess what , because

17:34

we'll send each other tiktoks . I'm like did you know

17:36

?

17:39

I'll make one , because

17:45

it does it everybody has shit .

17:47

You got to deal with your own shit and yeah

17:49

, there's pregnant stuff . I forget that's gonna go back to your family

17:52

of origin . That's not pretty , I .

17:55

Well and again , people when

17:57

they hear trauma , they think you know war

17:59

, sexual assault , murder

18:01

, and I'm like , no , that's what we call that big

18:04

T trauma , right . And then there's little T trauma

18:06

and little T trauma is just the accumulative

18:08

things of like . We're talking about watching your parents

18:11

fight , watching your parents not talk to

18:13

each other , you know , dinner not being consistent

18:15

, you know , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . All

18:17

those things , right that build

18:19

up over time , that disrupt a

18:21

child's emotional capacity and

18:24

development .

18:24

Well , and I think that's so huge to hear is

18:27

that trauma does not have to

18:29

be the big T , that

18:32

the little T can affect you just as much

18:34

, and that's okay .

18:36

Yeah , Sorry , sorry about that . They're

18:38

speaking of trauma , Right , I

18:40

mean , by the way . I want to be super clear . All

18:43

this stuff I'm talking about , you know healthy

18:45

lifestyles and everything and how to treat

18:47

your partner it doesn't apply to how we handle our animals

18:49

on any level whatsoever . They run the show

18:51

.

18:52

There's no boundaries . No

18:55

no , no , no

18:57

, no they sleep in the bed .

18:59

They get what they want , right , you

19:01

know you go downstairs , the house is littered with dog

19:04

toys . I mean , we are just pathetic . But

19:07

, like you were talking about , you know the family of origin

19:09

, trauma and being aware of that , because , because

19:11

that awareness really is the big piece , right , it's

19:13

understanding that you don't have to grow up

19:15

in you know the worst

19:17

of the worst of the worst , and that's what people always want

19:19

to do .

19:20

Well , that wasn't us .

19:21

I'm like look , I want to tell you something . It

19:23

wasn't me either . You know , I grew up in a $2

19:26

million home . We had BMWs , we had trips to

19:28

Hawaii . On the outside we had everything

19:30

, but on the inside it was crazy town

19:32

, you know , and there was just a lot of

19:34

nutty behavior going on that it

19:37

took me years to figure out and sort through

19:39

. And that's the reality

19:41

of the situation . And I want to be clear with you

19:43

Everybody

19:45

has a story . You know . Every time

19:47

someone's like oh you know , these people are dysfunctional

19:49

, I'm like everybody's dysfunctional , bro , there's

19:52

no , there's no , there's no functional family

19:54

.

19:54

You know , we've never found the perfect family

19:56

.

19:56

That's everything's groovy to be . You

19:59

know that's not how it works . You

20:01

know , and but

20:03

it's how you respond to it

20:05

. You know , and the response

20:07

needs to be I love you . We're

20:09

not going to do this anymore . Let's find

20:12

you some help . You know

20:14

, and not , you know , getting

20:17

mad at people or coming . What's wrong with you

20:19

? What happened to you ? Let's

20:21

, let's , let's figure this out together . I'm I'm going to

20:23

support you . I may not be able to fix it , but

20:25

I want to support you as you take care of yourself

20:27

.

20:28

Yeah Well , and I love what you just said , because I can see

20:30

looking in the mirror too

20:32

and saying that same thing I

20:35

love you , we're not going to do this anymore .

20:37

Yeah , let's get you some help , right

20:41

? Exactly , I mean , that's the

20:43

, that's exactly . I mean people that do that generally

20:45

have done it for themselves first , and they can offer

20:48

it back to their loved ones and be like so here's

20:50

the deal , I'm taking care of me and you

20:52

know , I think you need to take care of you

20:54

, but if you're , not going to do that . I don't know how much

20:56

longer I'm going to stick around , you know and

20:59

I'm not obligated to this , I don't have to do this

21:01

, you know . I mean , I choose to spend my time

21:04

with you because I love you and I care about you , but

21:06

if you're not going to take care of yourself , it

21:08

turns out I can't do it for you . Yep , you

21:12

know , and and and you know that's , that's a tough call .

21:14

That is a tough call .

21:15

Yeah , it's very hard . I had to have that conversation

21:18

with my mom . I'm like you know , I love you , but this

21:20

is not healthy , Right . And she's like I don't know what you're talking

21:22

about . I'm like , okay , cool , and I mean

21:24

, and I hung out with my mom , but very

21:27

limited you know , and I was just

21:29

like you know this is it's not . It's not healthy

21:31

.

21:31

And and when you put your health and your

21:33

boundaries first . Things

21:37

become a lot more clear when you , when you

21:39

stop looking at everybody else and

21:41

what they're doing yeah right , so well , if you stop , you want to say , let's spread the word to the

21:43

American people . Yeah , you know .

21:45

I think one of the things again cute little

21:47

phrase is that you know , stop

21:50

complaining

21:53

about dealing with clowns . Ask

21:55

yourself , why do I keep going to the circus ? You

21:57

know it's like . Well , you know

21:59

, I mean it's easy for me to see because

22:01

I'm a professional and I'm trained and I'm recovered

22:03

and this but I'll talk to people

22:05

and they're just like oh my God , oh my God , oh my God , I'm

22:07

like you know , you have a choice . Just

22:10

so we're clear you have a choice . You

22:13

don't have . I always one of my favorite analogies

22:15

is that every morning when you wake up , when you're living

22:17

in this environment , every morning , when you wake up

22:19

and you open your front door , it's like one of the cars

22:22

from the roller coaster shows up and it's like oh hey

22:24

, we're ready for you and you have a choice

22:26

. You don't got to get in , you

22:29

know , you don't got to go on the roller coaster ride

22:31

. You can be like , you know , today , no

22:33

roller coaster for me , thanks anyway . Yep , you

22:36

know . And everyone's going to be like what do you

22:38

mean ? Oh , come on , you're not having any fun

22:40

. And I'm like no , I like

22:42

my life serene . Yep , you

22:44

know , life's going to bring me stuff all

22:46

by itself . I don't need

22:48

to go manufacture it , I don't need and I don't need to

22:50

talk , I don't need to take on your stuff . Yeah

22:53

, and . But again

22:55

, that takes years of work and a

22:57

lot of therapeutic awareness , and I

22:59

would tell you that I also I mean , I'm a huge believer

23:01

in Alenon and Code of Defense , anonymous and Adult

23:04

Children of Alcoholics and all those

23:06

programs , I think , and there's a lot of great therapists

23:08

out there that do their own thing and

23:10

that help people recover from that kind

23:12

of , you know , family of origin trauma and

23:14

traumatic childhood codependency

23:17

, whatever you want to call it and , and

23:19

as long as those people are helping you , address

23:21

you and take a look at

23:23

you , if you're in there constantly bitching

23:25

about the other person and foguling here's what they did

23:28

and here's what they did and here's what they did , that's

23:30

not good therapy , right , you know , I'm

23:33

sorry , it's just not . I mean initially , when

23:35

you're doing like , let me tell you why I'm here . Oh

23:37

, and , by the way , I have a memory of like , oh

23:39

, okay , so , so what did you

23:41

learn from that ? Oh , I learned I needed to do

23:43

this . Okay , how are we going to correct that ? Yeah

23:45

, yeah , and that's good

23:47

therapy .

23:48

Yeah , yeah . Well , I always love talking to you because

23:51

we're going

23:53

to talk about , because there's so much more to uncover

23:55

.

23:56

Oh , I can . I have plenty of stuff

23:58

to talk about All right .

23:59

I'm counting on that , Kevin . Kevin Petersen

24:01

, licensed marriage and family therapist and

24:03

the starter , the founder , of Chronic Hope Institute

24:05

. You can find out more information about

24:08

the work that Kevin does . You can reach out to him

24:10

at Chronic Hope dot us and

24:12

I'll also throw that in the show notes . Until

24:14

next time . I'm Melissa Moore . Thank

24:16

you for listening and being here today for

24:19

unshackling the soul . It would really

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mean a lot to me if you could take 30 seconds to

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