0:05

You don't have to be a parent to worry about

0:07

what kids get up to online, but

0:09

believe me, it certainly helps. The idea

0:11

of my son perusing the darker corners of

0:13

the internet without me sitting directly behind him

0:16

tends to send my heart racing. And

0:19

little wonder. Pornography, violent imagery,

0:21

incitement to self-harm, and much

0:23

more, all available with just

0:25

the swipe of a screen.

0:28

Having been given a bit of a

0:30

push by the court of public opinion,

0:32

tech companies have instituted some measures, but

0:35

the Online Safety Act passed last

0:37

October gave new powers to Communications

0:39

Watchdog Ofcom, which has just published

0:41

its draft children's safety code. Robust

0:44

age checks, improved complaints procedures,

0:46

a commitment from platforms to

0:49

take action to tame the

0:51

algorithms recommending harmful content to

0:53

children. All sounds very positive,

0:56

even if it does make you wonder why we weren't doing

0:58

it before, but some parents remain to

1:00

be convinced. This law has been put

1:02

in place, but there's

1:04

nothing really changed as such,

1:07

which is frustrating for us as parents. It's

1:09

almost like an insult to us as well,

1:12

because we've put in so much work. I'm

1:14

Neil Patterson, and on this edition of The

1:16

Sky News Daily, we'll be asking if those

1:18

concerns are valid, or if the

1:20

internet is about to be made that much

1:22

safer. Later,

1:25

we'll be speaking to one online

1:28

safety expert about the tech firms

1:30

behind the almost ubiquitous social media

1:32

platforms on which dangerous content can

1:34

be viewed. But let's start

1:36

with a few explanations. Christina Criddle

1:38

is technology correspondent for the Financial Times.

1:40

Christina, great to have you with us. Just

1:42

to explain exactly what we have heard

1:44

from Ofcom today, and how these, well, their

1:47

draft guidelines, how these draft guidelines play into

1:49

the Online Safety Act. which

2:00

basically says these are some things we think

2:02

that you should do and if you don't

2:04

do them you might not be meeting your

2:06

legal requirement under the Online Safety Act.

2:09

And these are things like age

2:11

verification but also making sure that

2:13

they're checking their algorithms aren't servicing

2:16

any harmful material especially to children.

2:18

The first time this was proposed

2:20

was in Theresa May's government. Ofcom

2:23

has been publishing guidance and different

2:26

updates over the past few months

2:28

but again this set of codes

2:30

of conduct have to be consulted

2:32

on. There's then a process before

2:34

they become public and then before

2:36

companies have to comply with them.

2:38

So I don't think we're going

2:40

to see Ofcom finding anyone for

2:42

quite some time but it's really important that they

2:44

do this because they have to be legally sound

2:47

because if they do want to take a big

2:49

tech firm to court they need to make sure

2:51

that these rules are very robust and

2:53

can stand out. So what are

2:55

the problem areas that would identify by

2:57

campaigners, by the government and codified in

3:00

the Online Safety Act? What are the

3:02

specific things that these social media platforms,

3:04

these tech companies will have to do

3:06

at some point in the near future?

3:09

The core theme is children who

3:11

are under age should not be

3:13

on these platforms and they definitely

3:15

shouldn't be seeing very harmful content

3:17

and then there's a second layer which

3:20

is these companies often have algorithms that

3:22

drive attempt content that you come across

3:24

and that these algorithms should not be

3:27

promoting harmful material which can often create

3:29

more engagement, it can make you spend more

3:31

time on the app, it might make you

3:33

share things or like them but it's not

3:35

necessarily good for children on the platform or

3:37

even adults on the platform. But specifically

3:40

on the children we already have

3:42

tiers of content that's very harmful,

3:44

things like pornography but then there's

3:47

that lower layer as well so

3:49

bullying content or those viral challenges

3:51

which can sometimes be quite dangerous. understands

4:00

what it means. Algorithms are

4:02

technology, usually AI, which goes under

4:05

what you're seeing. So I'm going

4:07

to use Instagram as an example

4:09

but TikTok has this too, where

4:11

it basically decides what you're going to see

4:13

on the platform. And as you use

4:15

the platform more it will get a better

4:17

understanding of the sort of thing you're interested

4:19

in. So I love cats. My platform

4:22

are always full with cats. If I click like

4:24

on a post having a cat then that algorithm

4:26

is going to know, okay she likes cats, I'm

4:28

going to give her some more. But

4:30

then it might start to test out different types of content.

4:32

So it might think, oh she really likes cats, why

4:35

don't we give her a dog and see what

4:37

happens. And I might like it, then it might

4:39

give me more dogs, or if I don't like

4:41

it then it'll discard that. And so these algorithms

4:44

learn from our behaviors and then can

4:46

start to drive what we're

4:48

seeing to encourage certain behaviors as well. And

4:50

presumably this applies in exactly the same way

4:52

when it comes to the more harmful types

4:54

of content. You know I've seen so many

4:56

stories over the past couple of years about

4:59

young people seeing self-harm content on

5:02

platforms like Instant and elsewhere. And

5:04

I've never come across it myself.

5:06

Just explain how we get to

5:08

a position where anyone

5:11

is receiving content of that type

5:13

on their devices. With all due

5:15

respect this tends to happen with teenagers and

5:17

teenage girls in particular who are already potentially

5:19

feeling quite low or depressed or having issues

5:22

with their body image. And so they might

5:24

be engaging with content on there that is

5:26

about body image. It might be quite innocent

5:28

and selfless level to begin with. It might

5:31

be somebody in a bikini or

5:33

it might be tips on getting healthy.

5:35

But then as the algorithm realizes you're

5:37

more interested in that it might try

5:39

and show you a more extreme version

5:41

of that. Now platforms have gone quite

5:43

far in trying to make sure that

5:45

they're not showing very harmful material on

5:47

their platforms but stuff is still getting

5:49

through. It's the joining of

5:51

the dots then that happens through the

5:54

algorithm. So do we have any

5:56

confidence though given how central these algorithms

5:58

are to these platforms? that

6:01

Ofcom who've been given these powers of enforcement

6:03

are going to be able to poke their

6:05

heads under the bonnet. At the moment

6:08

Ofcom are really relying on these companies to

6:10

provide them with information. So once these codes

6:12

of conduct come into force, companies

6:14

have to conduct risk assessments on their

6:16

algorithms. So that's giving quite a lot

6:18

of power to these companies to basically

6:20

mark their own homework. But what Ofcom

6:22

can now do is request more and

6:24

more information, they can really dig into

6:26

it, and if they suspect something

6:29

to little awry, they can open an investigation.

6:32

Given that these platforms of their own

6:34

volition have not taken steps to guard

6:36

young people against this type of content,

6:39

or not satisfactory steps, according

6:41

to the government in Ofcom, why on

6:43

earth would we ever believe that they

6:45

would be entirely honest when pushed by

6:48

Ofcom for this type of information? It

6:50

strikes me that given that they've landed themselves

6:52

in this position in the first place, we

6:54

probably shouldn't be trusting them as much as

6:56

we are. They are absolutely taking

6:59

steps, they already have. And this is

7:01

before the legislation has come into force.

7:03

But I think when this legislation does

7:05

come into force, there are quite hefty

7:07

penalties in terms of financial signs for

7:10

these companies, if they are not complying,

7:12

but even they have to name a

7:14

person at the organisation who is personally

7:17

responsible for anything that goes wrong there. And

7:19

they can even have criminal liability. So they

7:21

might even go to jail if

7:23

this company is found to be flouting the rules

7:26

on child safety. I get the point that the

7:28

tech companies have gone some distance to

7:30

putting their own house in order, and that

7:32

is what it is. But the parents aren't

7:34

happy about it. And it strikes me that

7:36

the tech companies have only done this because

7:39

people have pointed out to them

7:41

that children are seeing harmful material on

7:43

their platforms. So often with technologies,

7:46

you don't know what the impacts are going

7:48

to be when it's out in the real

7:50

world. Certainly we know now, and these tech

7:52

companies should be doing something about it. But

7:54

I also think that we as parents, we

7:56

as users of this technology, need to have

7:58

some agency as well. as well and

8:00

need to work out, you know, we

8:02

can control these algorithms. There are things

8:04

that we can do to make sure

8:07

we're not seeing this kind of material.

8:09

And if you're a parent, you really

8:11

need to be involved in how your

8:13

child uses these platforms. These companies are

8:15

trying quite hard to comply. And I

8:17

also think beyond the sort of financial

8:19

consequences for not complying, there is a

8:21

real reputation management issue. And it was

8:24

once that we saw Facebook meta would

8:26

own the whole social media network space.

8:28

And that's not the case. We've seen

8:30

TikTok come up recently. And it's been

8:32

hugely popular that there is room for

8:34

competitors. And so if you're seen as

8:36

a platform that isn't looking after

8:38

children, then you might quite

8:40

quickly lose your users. Isn't

8:43

the genie out the bottle on all of

8:45

this that the social media platforms are all

8:47

pervasive? Everyone has them on the phone, particularly

8:49

if you are a young person and they're

8:51

engaging in this manner. There's definitely

8:53

an argument for that. And I think we're

8:56

seeing that play out now with AI and

8:58

all of the hype around AI, these products

9:00

are often created without fully knowing the consequences.

9:02

And they are just released to consumers in

9:05

the wild. Perhaps there should

9:07

be some intervention earlier. I

9:09

don't know when that's going to happen. I don't know when

9:11

the regulation is going to come in full. So it causes

9:13

that. But it's certainly something to think about.

9:16

Certainly is. Christina Criddle, great to talk to you. Thanks for

9:18

your time. Stay

9:20

where you are. And please don't swipe left.

9:22

When we return, we'll look a bit more

9:24

closely at the tech companies themselves and how

9:26

likely they are to fall into line. Welcome

9:32

back. The past few years have

9:35

seen many young people lose their lives

9:37

or choose to end them because of

9:39

material found online. And whilst

9:41

parents would wish to be able

9:43

to supervise their child every action

9:45

online, that clearly isn't possible. So

9:47

there is considerable merit in getting

9:49

the tech firms themselves to ensure

9:51

that kids don't have unfettered access.

9:55

John Carr is an online safety expert.

9:57

Secretary will be coalition of UK children's

9:59

charities. dealing with internet safety and

10:01

has advised the United Nations, the

10:03

European Union and the British government.

10:06

We're the first country in the world

10:08

to attempt anything this ambitious or this

10:10

comprehensive. The whole of the

10:13

world's eyes are now on us. We've got

10:15

to make sure it works. It's been far

10:17

too long coming, but we've got it now.

10:19

I mean, I'm glad it's here. It's a

10:21

good piece of law and now we're going

10:24

to make those tech companies behave better. John,

10:26

you're making it sound as if these big

10:28

tech firms don't have children's safety as their

10:30

overwhelming priority. They absolutely do not.

10:33

If they had, we wouldn't be where

10:35

we are today having to legislate for

10:37

it. They only act if they see

10:39

a threat to the continued profitability or

10:42

the continued sort of smooth operation of

10:44

their business. This new piece of law

10:46

represents that threat, so they

10:48

are going to have to comply. In

10:50

Britain, because we're such a big and

10:52

important and rich market, they

10:55

will want to stay operational here and that

10:57

means complying with the law. But I also

10:59

wonder what it says about our politicians, that

11:01

it's taken them this long to realise what's

11:03

been going on. Well, on the

11:05

specific point about pornography, we had a law

11:08

that Parliament passed in 2017. The

11:11

then regulator, which was the BBFC,

11:13

brought regulations to Parliament, which

11:15

Parliament approved. And then at the very

11:17

last minute, I mean, literally the week

11:19

before those new laws were due to

11:21

go into effect, Boris Johnson pulled the

11:24

plug on them. And Parliament was very angry, I

11:26

have to say, even within the

11:28

Conservative Party, there was a great deal of anger.

11:30

But anyway, look, that's old history now. We've

11:33

got a new piece of legislation.

11:35

We've got to make it work.

11:37

The way in which tech companies

11:39

look after their products, they don't

11:41

like people, particularly governments, particularly intelligence

11:43

services, for example, poking around in

11:45

the inner workings of their platforms.

11:47

So I just wonder, when it

11:49

comes to Ofcom wanting to see

11:51

action taken on the algorithm, will

11:53

Ofcom have enough access to be able

11:56

to ensure that the correct action is

11:58

being taken? There are substantial powers. in

12:00

this new legislation to levy significant

12:03

fines against companies that are found not

12:05

to be complying with the law. Ten

12:08

percent of global revenue, 18 million

12:10

pounds or ten percent of global

12:12

revenues. But you know what? Fines,

12:14

schmines, these big

12:16

businesses, fines are just part

12:19

of the cost of doing business. Fines won't

12:21

do it. But what we've got uniquely

12:23

in this piece of legislation are

12:26

criminal sanctions. So what Ofcom

12:28

will have, and this is the most

12:30

powerful stick, they have a legal

12:32

power to request information from these

12:34

tech companies. And the tech companies

12:37

are under a legal obligation to

12:39

answer the questions truthfully. And

12:41

if they don't, their senior

12:43

executives will be subject to criminal

12:45

sanctions. So fines they

12:47

can pay, criminal sanctions they

12:49

cannot avoid. And so those

12:52

transparency powers will work. We

12:54

will be able to see, the public

12:56

will be able to see, parents will

12:58

be able to see, everybody will be able

13:00

to see what is the truth of what

13:02

these big tech companies are actually doing to

13:04

protect children and make the internet safe and

13:06

better place. Yeah, I mean, to see one

13:08

of the masters of the universe, one of

13:10

the big tech firms, you know, going into

13:12

prison for something like this, I think that

13:15

would be very warmly welcomed by

13:17

a group that you've already mentioned, the

13:19

parents. You've spoken to an awful lot

13:21

of them over the years, I'm sure,

13:24

John, and probably in regards to this

13:26

draft code of practice, it

13:28

strikes me, and I've seen a

13:30

comment from some of them, that not

13:33

everyone, not everyone thinks this is going

13:35

far enough. Yeah, they're impatient.

13:37

And I understand they're impatient. And

13:39

I'm going to say or do

13:41

nothing to try to talk them

13:44

out of feeling frustrated and

13:46

angry that the way things have

13:48

turned out, Ofcom have to go

13:50

through these processes very carefully and

13:52

deliberately to draw up and describe

13:54

the rules, or rather how

13:56

they're going to implement the laws. I'm not

13:58

yet dismissing Ofcom. Absolutely not. They

14:01

want it to succeed. It's in their

14:03

professional interest for it to succeed. And

14:05

I'm sure they'll give it the

14:07

best go they can. They have to. There

14:10

are no alternatives. And

14:12

this is the first time anywhere in

14:14

the world this approach has been tried. So

14:16

we all have a big investment in making

14:18

sure it works. And we'll be holding off,

14:21

come to account, the children's organizations, the parents'

14:23

organizations, they're not going to go away. The

14:25

tech companies themselves would say,

14:27

look, we have taken steps of

14:30

our own volition before any compulsion

14:33

was placed upon us. I suspect that it

14:35

has been the outspoken parents of children who

14:37

have suffered or who have lost their lives

14:39

that have compelled them to go as far

14:41

as they have. I

14:44

absolutely agree with you. And there's no doubt they have

14:46

done things. Yeah, they have done odd things, but

14:48

they've all been marking their own homework. That

14:50

ship has sailed. What advice, John,

14:53

would you give to, let's just say,

14:55

a kind of a middle-aged white Scotsman

14:57

who has a small child under the

14:59

age of 10 who is not

15:01

getting a mobile phone until he grabs

15:03

it, pries it from my cold,

15:05

dead hands. Frankly, what advice would

15:07

you give to someone in that

15:09

position who, frankly, is

15:11

genuinely really scared about what

15:13

lies ahead for my child and

15:15

his activities online? Kids need

15:18

to learn about technology. They need to

15:20

learn how to use it because it's

15:22

with us forever. Now

15:24

it's part of the way the modern world works.

15:27

But parents need to get

15:29

engaged. But you know what? The

15:31

companies, we can't put it all on

15:33

parents. These companies have changed the culture.

15:35

They spent billions and billions of pounds,

15:37

billions and billions of dollars creating a

15:40

whole new world that's really great in

15:42

lots of ways. But kids feel they

15:44

have to be there. They have to

15:46

be part of it. It's a great

15:48

way to learn. But when those products

15:50

are put into their child's hands, be

15:52

it a smartphone or a tablet or

15:54

a computer, it should be as safe

15:56

as it possibly can be at the

15:58

point of first use. In

16:00

any other consumer product with any other like

16:03

a toaster a TV a washing machine Anything

16:05

that you would buy for your for use in

16:07

a family home It wouldn't be

16:10

like that because we've had many many years

16:12

experience You've got rigorous regulations and strong enforcement

16:14

to make sure that when you take something

16:16

home with you when you take something into

16:19

a family home It's as safe as it

16:21

possibly can be That's the position

16:23

we need to be in with tech so that

16:25

when you do give your 10 year old child

16:27

a piece of tech You don't have to fret

16:30

and worry about being a bad parent. What have I

16:32

done? What have I missed or something of that kind?

16:35

John many thanks And

16:38

I should point out that both snapchat

16:40

and indeed meta which obviously owns Facebook

16:43

and whatsapp I will they say they

16:45

have extra protections for under 18s and

16:47

can offer parental tools to control what

16:49

children can see Snapchat added

16:52

it supports the aims of the online

16:54

safety act And that is the reason for that Parents

16:58

have for decades been telling their kids that

17:01

they should go outside and kick a ball

17:03

around To step away from the screen before

17:05

it rots their brain and thanks

17:07

again for that mother But for those

17:09

of us of a certain vintage it

17:12

can be difficult to conceive of how

17:14

much of our kids lives Take place

17:16

online and unlike in the past. There

17:18

is no stepping away from the screen

17:20

It goes where they go and so

17:22

to the harmful content Parents

17:24

can only do so much the

17:27

tech companies or perhaps they

17:29

can do much more That's a

17:31

lot for this edition of the Sky News Daily. We'll see you again

17:33

soon