0:00

What about your cricket philosophy then? How

0:02

has that journey taken you from the young lad in Dunedin

0:05

who was hoping it wasn't going to be peeing down with rain on

0:07

a Saturday morning, and your old man obviously played for Otago

0:09

and your brothers in the back garden etc.

0:12

How has that evolved from the little kid who loved it

0:15

to going into playing professionally and all

0:17

that entails with New Zealand? And then almost

0:19

coming, would you say, full circle back to playing

0:22

how you did in Dunedin as a nipper?

0:23

Yeah, it's

0:26

been a pretty incredible journey. Every day

0:28

we turn up here, you know, like walking

0:31

this morning, you go through the Grace Gates, you rock

0:33

up to the change room, down through the

0:36

long room, out onto the field

0:38

across to the nursery. It's a long way

0:40

from South Dunedin, you know.

0:43

I feel incredibly humbled and

0:45

really proud as well

0:48

that where the game

0:50

has taken me, and for my

0:52

small part in it,

0:54

is what I'm proud of. I guess humbled

0:56

by how far you

0:58

can get in life and the opportunities that can

1:01

come to you and to experience

1:04

if you're able to, I

1:05

guess, dream it and sort of work hard

1:07

and get some luck along the way and ultimately

1:09

achieve it. It's been a really

1:11

cool journey and

1:13

cricket's

1:14

been everything to me in life really. It's given me a

1:16

great life and I'll forever

1:18

be thankful for that. It's always worth, I think,

1:21

remembering that and having that, I

1:24

guess, that sincere gratitude

1:27

towards the game regardless of whether you're

1:29

succeeding or you're failing at times. It's

1:31

a great job, it's a great

1:33

life, it's a great opportunity and

1:35

that's what I guess I sort of look at and

1:38

am very grateful for. Did you perhaps

1:40

then go away from that for a while and what sort of dragged

1:42

you back?

1:43

Yeah, I think, well,

1:45

I did go away from it for a little while and that probably

1:48

sets the basis of the foundation of

1:51

where I'm at as a coach, I guess, is that

1:53

you can see talent stymied on

1:55

occasions and I felt my talent was stymied from myself. Right.

1:59

you were trying to be someone that you're not. I

2:02

think when I first came into

2:04

the game, my favorite players were

2:06

Viv Richards and Alan Border. You know, I was a Kiwi, but

2:08

Viv

2:09

Richards for the swagger,

2:12

the impact, the personality that

2:14

he was, and Alan Border for the tough gruff,

2:17

sort of follow me, lads attitude,

2:19

and they were the heroes,

2:21

and I wanted to be those guys. I wanted to see

2:23

the game played as an entertaining

2:25

product, and I wanted to be, buy

2:27

my ticket, or sneak

2:29

over the back fence to get into a game and see someone,

2:32

and

2:32

then a fast bowler taking on a batter,

2:35

and someone bounces them and hooks them, and all

2:37

of that drama in theatre, and that was what I

2:39

loved about the game, and then I think

2:41

when I first started my international career, I probably

2:43

had that, and then I think I started through

2:46

self-doubt, and maybe because the prize was

2:48

bigger, and there was more eyeballs on your

2:50

performance, I think I become a shrunken-down

2:53

version of that,

2:55

and a shadow of the player I was, because

2:57

I was trying to eke out performance, I was trying to will

2:59

a performance, and

3:01

I was just trying to get through to the next game, rather

3:04

than

3:05

losing myself in the game in the moment, and

3:08

allowing my talent to come out, and it took me

3:10

a while to

3:11

get past that. I know you mentioned about,

3:14

you know, when I was a kid, sort of,

3:17

you open up the curtains,

3:19

I always said that morning, you might have gone naught, naught, naught the

3:21

three previous weeks, but you open up the curtains, and you're

3:23

hoping it's not raining, because you've got another opportunity, and

3:26

I was like that for so much of my early stage,

3:28

but then for a short period of my career,

3:31

I was hoping it was raining when you pulled back the curtains, so

3:33

you didn't have to be fronted

3:36

with

3:37

disappointment or failure,

3:40

and it wasn't until, I

3:41

guess I was ready to, well,

3:44

I don't know why it happened, or when it happened, but just

3:46

kind of said, what are you doing? The game's not fun

3:49

if you're playing like that. I'm

3:51

not achieving anything, and occasionally

3:54

you might get one or two scores, but you're not actually, you're

3:56

not making a difference, you're not playing the game

3:58

the way that you love the game.

3:59

the first instance. But

4:02

go and lose yourself in the game, play for the little

4:04

boy who fell in love with the game and

4:06

that was the latter part of my

4:08

career and I think that really did shape

4:12

I guess my captaincy, it shaped my final

4:15

stage of my career and it's definitely shaped me

4:17

as a person

4:19

and as a coach. So I'd like to pick out two

4:21

potential incidents that might have flipped

4:23

that switch or at least got you thinking along

4:25

those lines. Your first

4:27

test as captain because that didn't go

4:30

so well to start with and the

4:32

tragedy that befell Philip Hughes

4:34

who a lot of people in the dressing room you were out playing

4:36

in Dubai and you know Luke Ronkey

4:39

as an example didn't own him very well you would have known Phil

4:42

and didn't you have a phone call with a psychologist

4:44

and he said something like throw you sort of

4:46

what cricket

4:47

you knew out the window and just go

4:49

and play. Would that be fair those two instances

4:52

were important? Clicks? Yeah I think

4:55

I think there's fear I think the first one

4:58

first test as captain wouldn't

5:00

have tossed you back you bowled out 45 so great you

5:03

know just not quite how

5:05

your dreams you

5:08

had the night before playing out but

5:10

that was really important because it you know

5:12

I think it shaped the New Zealand cricket

5:14

setup at the time because I think there

5:16

was a team which was had

5:20

a different opinion of itself to

5:22

what was reality and

5:25

it took to hit rock bottom as a team and

5:28

for us to be able to make change and

5:31

then start to put it all back together again so I think

5:33

that was vitally important and you have visions

5:36

and stuff but sometimes you don't you can't see

5:38

it clearly until

5:40

you test the daily on it I think and

5:43

during that time we had these visions of how do

5:45

you make this what it should be and

5:48

you start and go okay right we're gonna do this and then

5:50

something else happens the next day and you go I've got a change.

5:52

We're all going to do something different but so

5:54

you're constantly challenged but eventually you end up getting

5:57

there if you stick to it so that was definitely

5:59

the case

5:59

And as for Phil Hughes

6:02

passing, I mean, that was, it

6:06

was tough, right? He could only think what his family

6:08

and close friends were going through. But

6:11

you had to play. You were the only team that was playing in

6:13

the world at that time. Yeah, and it's

6:15

really, the level of emotion

6:17

within

6:18

the change room made

6:21

up of mostly people who didn't know Phil, but

6:24

the level of emotion, I think, was based around

6:26

that it could have been anyone.

6:28

The sport had never been life or

6:30

death really, it's kind of,

6:33

so for that moment it kind of changed

6:35

things. And I think that's what really filled

6:38

the dressing room with as much emotion as it did. And

6:41

that was, it was a phone call with Gilbert and Oka, who was

6:44

a sports psychologist for the All Blacks

6:46

for a long period of time and had been a part of

6:48

New Zealand and is very famous

6:50

as a good fella who's

6:53

been able to lead the way

6:55

in that area for a long time. And he

6:57

said to me, because I said, I don't know what to do. So,

7:01

and he said, well,

7:02

just everything you think about, that you've thought

7:04

about playing the game of cricket beforehand, around performance,

7:06

around runs, wickets, everything,

7:09

he said, just forget about it. He said, throw it out the window

7:11

and just spend time as a team. Just look

7:14

after your mate out on the field. I

7:16

don't know what it was, but

7:19

we went out there without worrying about what

7:22

might go wrong as a player. I think

7:24

we had 25 sixes in the game.

7:27

We beat

7:28

Pakistan and Shah Jha when Australia, who

7:31

were number one in the world, leading into that,

7:33

the series before had been beaten 3-0. We

7:36

did something which was quite remarkable and we did

7:38

it because,

7:39

well, A, because we're losing

7:42

ourselves in that moment to B, look after

7:44

one another.

7:46

But also we stripped away the fear of failure. That

7:48

kind of set us on a bit of a path as well.

7:51

And it certainly opened my

7:53

mind to it, that if you can find a way

7:56

to quieten the noise around performance

7:58

down, and...

7:59

allow your talent to come out and just be where your

8:02

feet are and live in that moment, then

8:05

you've got your best chance to actually be successful. You

8:07

mentioned fear of failure there. Is that always bad

8:09

fear of failure? Look,

8:12

I think caution is not necessarily a bad

8:15

thing at times. As long as it doesn't hold you back, it would be

8:17

my gut feel.

8:18

Keep in mind, I don't know, Baldy, you know, like

8:20

this is, you've got to marry yourself to a position

8:23

and to something in life, right? And

8:25

this is how I like to operate. It doesn't mean that

8:27

it's right for everyone.

8:30

But, you know, I think it's

8:33

fine to have a little bit of caution because it does stop

8:35

you from

8:36

going off the cliff as well. But it's

8:39

also if it's stopping you from allowing

8:42

your talent to come out, then I have a problem

8:44

with it.

8:45

What about in terms of getting to know your players? How

8:47

do you do that? I mean, I know you're a big people person. Does

8:50

that help? How do you go about that?

8:53

It's just time, right? Just

8:56

time and

8:58

energy around them. I

9:00

love people. I love spending time with people. I'm

9:02

a very social person. I think you just...

9:05

I want to try and get the best out of everyone

9:08

that you encounter, right? It's

9:11

not just in terms of their performance,

9:13

but get the best out of them to try and enjoy

9:16

the opportunity that they have and to hopefully

9:18

grow as people and to build relationships.

9:20

Because,

9:22

you know, that's ultimately the games

9:24

I think the game's all about. So there's different

9:26

things you do. Some guys like golf,

9:28

some guys like going for a meal, some

9:30

guys like training. You know,

9:33

you might spend some time and some

9:35

investment in trying to get to know

9:37

them and hopefully build

9:39

some relationships, which

9:41

they ultimately trust you to be

9:43

able to assist them on

9:45

the journey to what they're trying to achieve. Is that an enjoyable

9:48

part of the job? Yeah, I love that. It's great.

9:51

Obviously, the performances out on

9:53

the field is great. You know, you're sitting up at the

9:56

balcony at Lourdes and you're looking around

9:58

and you've got a full house and there's a nice hub.

9:59

going and you're watching some of the best players in the world

10:02

go about their work and you

10:04

know you simply pinching yourself and

10:06

this is phenomenal. We talk

10:08

a lot in the dressing room as coaches now

10:10

about just enjoying that moment you

10:12

know like this whatever happens out there but

10:16

the real fun for us is that

10:18

working with the guys, building those relationships,

10:21

getting to know them as people, getting to know who their what

10:23

their wives and their kids and what what their

10:25

life is like and then working with them on

10:27

their skills and and then whatever

10:30

happens out on the field we kind of it's

10:32

not we don't care because that's but

10:36

it's almost secondary there'll be times

10:38

where they succeed and there's times with which they fail

10:40

but it's the other stuff where you see them

10:42

grow as people and and

10:44

grow as cricketers and humans which is

10:47

where the real fun is. I've heard

10:49

you say before about how important communication

10:51

is in this job.

10:54

Is that one of the main

10:56

things you've got to get right when you're

10:58

dealing with a squad of players or individual players

11:00

and if I can ask you about a few individuals therefore

11:03

how difficult conversation

11:05

would it have been with men folks to have admitted

11:07

him from this squad? It

11:10

was really tough obviously folks

11:13

he's been a big part of our side over the

11:15

last 12 months and he's he's been a

11:18

very very strong performer for us and I guess

11:21

I mean just like anything in

11:23

life is there's sometimes we just you're

11:26

outright unlucky and focusing

11:29

on this instance was unlucky

11:31

but I thought you know testament to him

11:33

he took news as best as he

11:36

could as even though he's naturally disappointed.

11:38

He'll have a big part to play on the side moving forward

11:40

too and you know focus is a clever

11:43

man he works that out too and you

11:45

never know what can happen in in sport

11:47

but I genuinely think all you can do is just be

11:49

honest right communicate you'd

11:51

be honest be big enough and brave enough

11:53

to pick up the phone and and and

11:55

you know respectfully you've got

11:58

to be the one that makes that call.

12:00

and it's not always going to be good news you're delivering.

12:03

Sometimes it's going to be bad that you

12:05

just do it with the best

12:07

way that you can and

12:09

hope that, you know, ultimately it doesn't

12:11

affect someone too much moving forward.

12:14

But you want to build relationships where,

12:18

you know, guys respect your

12:20

decisions even though, you know, it hurts

12:22

sometimes. It

12:24

doesn't mean that you're not going to be good friends with them moving forward,

12:26

but that's just the game we're in, right?

12:29

Do you expect to get many overs from the captain this summer?

12:31

Yeah, I hope so. Be

12:34

nice. Yeah, be nice at some point.

12:38

Look, you know,

12:40

I think the skipper,

12:42

well, he writes his own scripts in my opinion and

12:45

this is the biggest stage which you probably

12:48

can get and I

12:51

think

12:52

he's got something up his sleeve and obviously

12:55

he's going to have to push through the pain barrier at times

12:57

as well, but we know he's not afraid

12:59

of that. He's certainly not against it. We've

13:03

just got to make sure we monitor it. I think if anything

13:06

it might be that, you know, we've

13:08

got to pull him back at times and

13:11

just make sure that there's some longevity in it as well

13:13

because, you know, he's got a long life to

13:15

live after cricket too which I want to make sure

13:17

he can still go into all the things which

13:19

he can do in life and

13:21

whatever he does, if he doesn't bowl a ball he's

13:23

still going to have a tremendous impact on the series. Yeah,

13:27

he's an absolute beauty and we're so lucky

13:30

to have him as our captain. I'd like to ask you

13:32

about his man management at Jack Leech because

13:34

from a distance it looks spectacular

13:36

and it's almost transformative for Jack. Would

13:38

that be fair?

13:39

Not just Jack I

13:41

don't think. Sure. You know, many other guys

13:43

within the side as well, but yeah,

13:46

Leech, he's a great fella. He's

13:50

obviously been around the group now for a long period of

13:52

time. He's got quite

13:54

an amazing skill of being able to

13:57

get the group to life. and

14:00

quite an pressure moment with just a quick

14:02

one-liner or whatever and that

14:06

sort of stuff's invaluable to a team. But what

14:08

he's done with the ball in

14:10

the last 12 months

14:13

has been real growth I think. I think the

14:15

skills have always been there but his acceptance

14:17

that the skipper believes

14:20

in him and wants him to try and take

14:22

the game on and to try and put pressure back

14:24

on the opposition

14:25

rather than sort of just operate I

14:27

think has been the making of him. I

14:30

guess statistically we don't tend to look at stuff

14:33

like that

14:34

but the impact that that mentality and

14:36

that role has for the overall package

14:38

throughout the time that you're out on the

14:40

field trying to take wickets

14:42

is significant and

14:44

he's been a huge player for us in the last 12 months

14:46

and not just on the field

14:49

but also in the dressing room. Driven

14:52

away on the offside. An 86

14:56

ball test match hundred for Zach

14:58

Crawley. An innings of incredible

15:01

style and grace. And

15:04

an innings a young man really needed.

15:06

Brilliant from him. I'm talking about believing

15:08

in players. You put a lot of truck behind Zach Crawley.

15:11

There's been plenty of column inches about his place in

15:13

the side. The captain's backed him to the hill at every

15:15

moment. I wonder if there's similarities

15:17

between you and Zach because I read a quote where you

15:20

talk about your batting. Chasing

15:22

the moments. So it's not necessarily

15:24

about the consistency chasing the moments. Is

15:26

that what you're asking Zach to do? A bit in your mold

15:28

maybe. Yep. Yeah that is exactly

15:31

what we're asking Zach to do and that's

15:33

what Zach wants to do as well. And

15:35

which I believe Zach has a skill to do too.

15:37

I think I sort

15:39

of see some similarities in us as players a little

15:41

bit. And I guess if we go back

15:44

to that time where as a player

15:46

I was trying to conform and I was trying to I was scared

15:48

of failing and I was trying to become

15:50

a consistent type of player. I saw

15:52

what it did to my game because

15:54

my offense game was a lot better than my defense

15:57

game. The defense game was there if you're

15:59

in the front. in mind that you're

16:01

still looking to put the bowler under pressure, but

16:03

there was times where I relied on that defence

16:06

too much whereby I wasn't strong enough

16:08

at it and I ended up not succeeding. So there's similarities

16:10

in that game, but Zach

16:12

has a much stronger offensive game and

16:16

I think he, well we

16:18

believe in his ability to

16:20

be able to put opposition teams under pressure.

16:23

Even now he's going to get out, he's going to nick out for

16:25

naught, playing a big extravagant shot. He's

16:28

going to miss one trying to whip it through

16:30

the league side, it can

16:32

happen right, but if he gets going

16:35

and we've seen it in the last 12 months and again

16:37

statistically is one

16:39

thing that's not what we look at, the impact

16:41

that you can make on games.

16:43

And I've looked back to Pakistan,

16:46

when he took 14 off first over, bang,

16:48

a couple of those low run chases in

16:51

games last summer,

16:52

bang, 30 off 30, 40 off 40, little

16:55

things like that, it makes a significant impact

16:57

on the game and then you'll have your day

17:00

out

17:00

where you get your double 100 off 180 balls

17:03

or where you

17:05

get a 100 off 120 that wins you the match whatever

17:07

and that's what we believe in and ultimately you've

17:09

got to

17:12

have conviction in what you do right and

17:14

total conviction and backing

17:16

of our players. The way you'd

17:19

like the guys to play cricket, the way they have played cricket,

17:22

results almost not that important,

17:24

it's about entertaining, you've said that many times, this

17:27

is the ashes though, it's different, public

17:29

expectations might be different, how are you going to manage that?

17:32

It shouldn't change though surely, I think we

17:35

get judged based on our

17:38

success and our failure right and we all get there, that's

17:40

what we sign up for and that's professional

17:42

sport and you've got to be prepared

17:44

in your own head

17:46

to marry yourself to a position and

17:48

that for us is around we

17:52

believe freeing guys up to

17:54

be able to play

17:56

the style of cricket that gives them the greatest amount of satisfaction

17:58

will transfer to

17:59

results, well could transfer to results, may not.

18:04

You want to have fun, you want to enjoy yourself and

18:06

you want to try and go out there and just lose

18:09

yourself and be a part of something and

18:11

that's what we're trying to achieve. The fact that it's

18:13

the biggest stage

18:15

you can plan, it's great,

18:17

it's better. Now what a great

18:19

opportunity, you might not achieve it but what a great

18:21

opportunity you've got to be able to be tested.

18:25

Everything that you've done in the last 12 months

18:27

as a team

18:28

is going to be tested and on the biggest stage

18:31

with most amount of people watching.

18:33

Bring it on, it's a great opportunity

18:35

and if it doesn't work it's okay, you know

18:37

we'll get up and we'll go again but

18:40

it's the opportunity that we've got to look at and try

18:42

and provide that real simple clarity of thought. So

18:45

you've still got less responsibility to test cricket?

18:48

Again I think it's the same message and

18:50

like we've been lucky over the last 12 months

18:52

to have achieved what we have

18:54

that it started to, well

18:57

I believe it started to snowball into this

19:00

this thing where people are saying we want to watch England play

19:02

cricket, we want to watch England play

19:04

test cricket.

19:05

What better stage than think

19:08

of all the kids around the world who are going to be watching the next two

19:10

to three months, all of those who have football

19:13

or rugby or athletics

19:16

or any other sport that they could choose from or

19:18

cricket.

19:19

The opportunity we've got to captivate them, to

19:21

grab them and to bring them to sport,

19:24

not just cricket but test

19:26

cricket, the game which

19:28

needs that relevance and has been

19:30

around for 100 years, well how do we provide

19:32

that that next shot in the arm

19:34

to ensure that we get people who want to be playing

19:36

test cricket? You do it by

19:39

providing the greatest entertainment on the biggest stage

19:41

while everyone's watching so that's

19:43

what's in front of us. Having those what's going to happen

19:45

is going to be fun watching,

19:46

appreciate your time.