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apply. See site for details. I'm

1:21

Steven Meckoff and this is the Slate Culture

1:23

Gap for Civil War. What is it good

1:25

for? Edition. It's Wednesday, April 17th,

1:28

2024. Entre se o, Civil War.

1:30

It's the new feature film from

1:32

Alex Garland. He of Ex Machina

1:34

fame. Annihilation, the TV show devs.

1:36

It's about a not so distant

1:38

future. Dystopian journey through a collapsed

1:40

and war-torn America. It stars Kirsten

1:42

Dunst as a benumbed but legendary

1:45

war photographer. And then Gerard Carmichael

1:47

reality show. It's just what it

1:49

sounds like and yet like

1:51

nothing else in the universe. It stars

1:53

the comedian Gerard Carmichael and

1:56

it's an unsettling confessional regarding masculinity,

1:58

friendship, fame, and culture. coming out

2:00

relatively late in life as gay. And

2:03

finally, gaslighting like trauma and narcissism

2:05

before it is a clinical reality

2:08

that went universal in the pop

2:10

consciousness. Does it still have any

2:12

meaning? We discuss a provocative New

2:15

Yorker piece by Leslie Jamison. But

2:18

joining me first is Julia Turner,

2:20

now of the Annenberg School at

2:22

USC. Julia. Hello, hello. And

2:24

Nadira Gough, of course, is a culture critic

2:26

and all around superstar for slade.com. Welcome back

2:28

to the podcast. Thanks, as always. Thanks for

2:31

having me. Civil War is

2:33

the dystopian travelogue from writer-director Alex

2:35

Garland. He of Ex Machina, Annihilation

2:37

fame, various other things. That's the

2:39

TV show. The United States

2:41

is now divided into five major regional

2:43

factions. The president, such as he is, is

2:45

holed up in the White House as forces

2:48

close in on him. America is

2:50

a giant no-go zone through which

2:52

four dedicated journalists have decided to

2:54

go. What follows is

2:57

a grotesque, picaresque journey through

2:59

a burned-out, bombed-out America. The

3:02

goal of reaching the White House and

3:04

interviewing and photographing the president, played by

3:06

Nick Offerman, the key figure here is

3:08

a photographer named Lee, played by Dunst.

3:10

She's a legendary photographer and war junkie

3:12

whose only goal is getting the shot.

3:15

To do that, she's learned how to

3:17

compartmentalize all her feelings. She does, however,

3:20

in all her work, have a single overriding message

3:23

for the world. Don't do

3:25

this. The film also

3:27

stars Kaylee Spaney, She of Priscilla,

3:30

Wagner Mora, and Stephen McKinley

3:32

Henderson. In this clip, we

3:34

hear aspiring photojournalist Jesse, played by Spaney,

3:36

trying to convince Kirsten Dunst's Lee to

3:38

let her join the group on

3:41

their way to and through the front lines. Beep.

3:47

I'm sorry for jamming my way into your ride,

3:49

OK? I know you're

3:51

really angry about it, and I know you

3:53

think I don't know shit, but. I'm not

3:55

angry about that, Jesse. I

3:58

don't care what you do or don't know. Okay,

4:00

but you are angry with me. There

4:03

is no version of this that

4:05

isn't a mistake. I know

4:08

because I'm it. So

4:11

when Samir is, it's

4:13

my choice. Right. And

4:16

I'll remember that when you lose

4:18

your shit or you get blown up or

4:21

shot. All right, Julia,

4:23

let me start with you. There's the conversation

4:25

about the film as a film. I mean,

4:27

it's, I think, expertly suspenseful and some

4:30

ways, amazing success. And then there's

4:32

a meta conversation about the ideology

4:34

of the film or really the

4:36

kind of radical absence of

4:39

ideology in the film recognizably. So it's hard

4:41

to know who's fighting whom and

4:43

why exactly in this American Civil War and

4:45

people have taken Garland to task for that.

4:48

What did you make of this movie? First

4:50

of all, we discussed the film Men

4:53

by Alex Garland a couple of years

4:55

ago, and I have not hated a

4:58

film and disrespect to

5:00

the film as much as I

5:02

hated and felt contempt for

5:04

men that I

5:06

can't remember disliking something we have

5:08

consumed that much in

5:11

many, many years. So I

5:13

went into this having caught inklings of

5:15

the idea that it's sort of vapid

5:17

and politics free and

5:20

both sides prepared,

5:22

kind of gritting my teeth.

5:24

I thought this movie was great. I thought

5:27

this movie was really well

5:29

made, really powerful. And

5:32

I thought that the absence of a

5:34

specific politics

5:37

was part of the point because it wasn't

5:39

about the specific political situation that we are

5:41

in in America right now. It was

5:44

about when political situations boil

5:46

over to the point of violence and what

5:48

that does to people and

5:51

how the frenzy that you have

5:53

to be in as a

5:55

culture and a society to get to violence

5:58

Is dehumanizing and causing violence. The people

6:00

to dehumanize other people. And then

6:02

it's also about the work to

6:04

journalists do trying to document. The.

6:07

Effects as the frenzy and about

6:09

how that work is also dehumanizing

6:12

that the at the effort to.

6:15

Portray. The. How people

6:17

deem as each other. Sources:

6:19

People themselves to be come on, human.

6:21

So. It's really a portrait of violence and

6:24

conflict. Which. Is an interesting

6:26

subject and the fact that you set

6:28

it in America without explicitly making it

6:30

pro or anti Trump or anybody. To.

6:33

Me was not a problem that I'm dying to hear

6:35

what you as that. I. Have

6:37

a sort of ongoing theory

6:40

about this movies which is

6:42

that your ability to. Not.

6:45

Necessarily enjoy it, but to

6:47

find it. Meaningful.

6:49

Or revolutionary in any way

6:52

as maybe perhaps a direct

6:54

correlation to how cynical you

6:56

office. And

6:58

I say that to say as

7:00

someone who is quite cynical I

7:03

have felt look I think that

7:05

the performances in the movie or

7:07

gray and I do want to

7:09

talk about them. I think the

7:11

cinematography is interesting and really striking.

7:13

ends really cool I think says

7:15

score slashed soundtrack mix is really

7:18

great. But when it comes

7:20

down to the actual message of

7:22

the movie, I definitely walked away

7:24

in the other camp Julia thinking

7:27

okay, and. Like that you know

7:29

I already. I already seeing

7:31

that we. Are at a

7:33

points in our political climate

7:36

in this country. Where people

7:38

have a hunger for violence and

7:40

I already think that the sort

7:42

of reveling in violence that the

7:44

film shows which I do think

7:46

is interesting, I already think that

7:48

that's their and so the movie

7:50

didn't necessarily show me anything that

7:52

I didn't know or didn't expect

7:54

except for the fact that like

7:56

Civil War sucks, it's bad we

7:58

shouldn't do. It. And

8:01

I was just of thinking well

8:03

if if that's the message then

8:05

this movie is great for other

8:08

technical reasons but it doesn't actually

8:10

do much for me as as.

8:13

Far as a statement is concerned, or something like

8:15

that, I. Echoed Maduro

8:17

virtually word for word me try to put

8:19

a smartphone original spin on it though that

8:21

will be hard because that was really it

8:24

for me. but I think I had to.

8:26

Reactions to film One is that as as

8:28

Spence film is nearly flawless, it's it's it's

8:31

expertly tightly directed. I was in the palm

8:33

of the hands of the director of virtually

8:35

the entire time, on the edge of my

8:37

see, did not want to leave to get

8:40

a drink or go to the bathroom. And

8:42

it is. It has a breathless kind of

8:44

nerve. Jangling, Jangling quality

8:46

to it. It's storytelling is brilliant.

8:48

I believe it comes in under

8:51

two hours. It's just expert old

8:53

fashioned Hollywood storytelling beginning middle and

8:55

and and puts a. Really?

8:58

Remarkable pie we symbolically loaded button on

9:00

it that works and set up through

9:02

the course of the entire film. Superbly

9:04

done by Alex Garland who it should

9:06

be said came out of the gate

9:08

really fast as a director he was

9:10

veteran screenwriter to that point, but X

9:12

Mcnabb was his first writer director of

9:14

really turned the whole world on the

9:16

Oscar Isaac and was prescient about a

9:18

eyes and kind of a brilliant John

9:20

reform in and of itself and then

9:22

maybe. I'd kind of agree with Julia

9:24

that sort of squandered it by this

9:26

of hats beginner and not. Insubstantial, he squandered

9:28

it by the time of men. This is

9:31

a huge comeback. It looks to be shaping

9:33

up as a commercial it and I like

9:35

the convincing be plot about the Mentor Mint

9:37

tea, the older women in the younger women

9:39

in the place of one's own humanity in

9:42

relation to a supposedly objective pursuit of journalism.

9:44

I thought that was Trenton and very well

9:46

done and emotionally satisfying. Had

9:48

a second reaction. I wouldn't say that

9:50

I was offended by it's political that

9:53

pity exactly. But. Quite like neera,

9:55

I felt as though my first reaction

9:57

was substantially neutralized by my second reaction.

10:00

Which is. We. Don't

10:02

live in a both sides

10:04

world. Anyone with a brain

10:06

knows that anyone who claims

10:08

that is being not only

10:10

vapid, but either you know,

10:12

sort of toxic by omission

10:14

or commission. There's one side

10:16

that is filled with bloodlust

10:18

and is actively politicizing violence

10:20

and talking about civil war.

10:22

Here's why I resent that

10:24

in relation to this film,

10:26

this film plays upon my

10:28

anxiety, my neuroses, my fears,

10:30

My ambivalence is. About that. That's

10:32

why I was drawn to this film and

10:35

it's a substantial reason why we're discussing it

10:37

and why it will be a hit because

10:39

it is touching is very live nerve of

10:41

a very powerful. It. Force

10:43

and sphere of that It force in

10:45

America only isn't a dearest as to

10:48

suspiciously neutralize it, and it both manipulates

10:50

it and then attempts to tend to

10:52

isolated as a variable in. So yeah,

10:55

yeah, but we're taking.off the table or

10:57

that's what got me to the cinema

10:59

in the first place. It's not that

11:01

I want the movie to say something

11:04

as equally vapid as Donald Trump. Bad,

11:06

mega, grotesque, mega fascism. We know that

11:08

already, right? That baked into our understanding.

11:11

But the not. Expand my

11:13

understanding of the very moment. The

11:15

current moment that this movie is exploiting

11:18

on it's way to commercial triumphs. In.

11:21

Some meaningful, more meaningful way

11:23

then. Civil. War

11:25

is awful. Journalists are heroes. You could

11:27

set that movie in Yugoslavia, Greece, or

11:29

Sub Saharan Africa. I mean, their civil

11:32

wars all over the world in which

11:34

those same lessons can be extracted. We're

11:36

not in a generic situation. we're in

11:38

a highly specific ones. And to make

11:41

a movie about Civil War and Two

11:43

Thousand Twenty Four the tongue answer to

11:45

some. Aspect of that. To.

11:47

Me was it was weird. Not

11:49

not necessarily offensive, it just. It.

11:52

I couldn't admire them movie more Julia in

11:55

all the ways that you say I was

11:57

gripped by it and in some respects really

11:59

loved in. It it but I couldn't

12:01

help but feel like it had. Also,

12:03

he didn't live and on your oven

12:05

and cauterized it in the same. Gesture

12:08

and not confused me. What? Here's

12:10

my theory of that was not a safe. Choice.

12:12

And it's actually a provocative choice. And

12:14

I'm not sure. If I'm

12:16

right about that when the money advances

12:18

and us can can take your not

12:20

to it's I. Didn't

12:22

read the film's lack of

12:25

grounding in the political reality

12:27

of the moment as some

12:29

kind of oh everybody's crazy,

12:31

neutrality. I read the

12:33

fact that photojournalists and journalists generally

12:35

where the protagonist said the sound,

12:38

and I don't think they're presented

12:40

uncritically as heroes. Was

12:43

about how. When

12:45

you are in an oppositional state,

12:47

your relationship to the truth becomes

12:49

challenge just because you're under threat.

12:52

And I do think that across

12:54

the political spectrum with seen that

12:56

I agree with you of course

12:58

that applying both sides mentality to.

13:01

Our. Current political climate does not

13:03

make sense. That I do think

13:05

the tendency to. Reach for

13:07

the facts that confirm what you believe

13:09

is. Does exist.

13:12

Across the spectrum in different ways.

13:14

Not to the same degree, not

13:16

with total equivalency, but it's it's

13:18

a human tendency. That

13:21

is dangerous. And. So I

13:23

read the film is kind of been

13:25

more about that and the the Rises

13:27

that and the people who are trying

13:30

to combat that that the fact that

13:32

they are themselves in a very tenuous

13:34

to this like it wasn't like ra

13:36

ra Ra. Journalists they're just

13:38

can keep doing their staffs an attorney

13:41

and problematic it was like the people

13:43

who are drawn to this work are

13:45

we at lunch and keys are are

13:48

have their own moral failings and their

13:50

own. They have to dehumanize

13:52

to portray what is lost when

13:54

other people. To. humanize and that's fucked up like

13:56

i am i what i liked about the movie

13:58

was that it wasn't not... with

14:01

actually, Nadira, that it didn't have a message, that

14:03

it was not actually trying to drive home a point.

14:06

It was exploring this problem

14:09

of what happens when we

14:12

cauterize our own feelings and our fellow

14:14

humanity and we become capable of different

14:16

kinds of violence,

14:18

whether it's actual violence or the

14:21

kind of violence of just numbing yourself to

14:23

blood such that you

14:25

just can capture it and capture it and capture it

14:27

and think that that's not going to have an effect

14:29

on you. And I think the arc that Kristen Dunst's

14:31

character has, and we

14:34

should come back to that performance, Nadira. I agree because it's

14:36

fucking incredible and this movie coming out in April is nuts

14:38

to me because I feel like she should be

14:41

on the Oscar list for that. Her arc is

14:43

about her reckoning with that and,

14:45

you know, as she's sort of passing

14:47

the torch to this younger journalist, like,

14:50

she sort of has the right instincts

14:53

but she also kind of is a

14:55

wild child adrenaline junkie and we'll see

14:57

what kind of storytelling that actor that

14:59

journalist produces over time, you know. And

15:02

I think for me that

15:04

all sounds amazing and I

15:06

wanted to feel that but I guess

15:09

a part of my issue is I

15:11

100% think that

15:13

the idea that your relationship to truth

15:15

becomes challenged is one that we reckon

15:17

with, is one that happens, is one

15:19

that's dangerous, as you said. But

15:22

if the movie doesn't give us a

15:24

relationship to any truth, then

15:27

our specific penchant towards, you

15:29

know, believing something to a

15:32

fault and then realizing that

15:34

maybe that's not the actual case, it

15:37

doesn't exist. We don't get to

15:39

live that experience and we don't

15:41

necessarily get to see journalists who

15:43

are people who have ideas because

15:46

they're women, because they're not white,

15:48

because they're, you know, X, Y,

15:50

and Z. They have

15:52

a personal stake, right? And what's interesting

15:54

to me is when journalists have to

15:56

lay that down to carry

15:59

out their work. or to do whatever it is

16:01

that they're setting out to do. But

16:03

if we don't ground ourselves in

16:05

everyone's beliefs and their

16:07

preconceived notions, then we miss out

16:10

on that really interesting, very specific

16:12

experience of what happens when you

16:14

find out that that's not the

16:17

case or what happens when you're

16:19

forced to ignore that in order

16:21

to pursue some other goal. And

16:24

I think what is so interesting

16:27

to me about the movie, in

16:29

turn, is the interpersonal relationships

16:31

that you guys are mentioning. I

16:33

was fascinated by what does it

16:35

mean to hang it up? What

16:38

does it mean to retire? When are

16:40

you done? What does it mean to pass on

16:42

the torch? What does it mean to be a

16:44

mentor? But then also, what does it mean to

16:46

be a mentee? And what are you responsible for?

16:51

And I find that to be

16:53

so interesting and maybe even

16:55

more interesting than whatever the movie

16:58

was trying to say or not say

17:00

about war, because I can ground myself

17:02

in interpersonal relationships and I can learn

17:04

something new about my relationship to them

17:06

through watching the movie. But I can't

17:08

ground myself in whatever the movie is

17:10

saying or not saying about political ideals,

17:13

even if it wants to turn it

17:15

on its head and tell me that I've been wrong

17:17

the entire time, right? That's totally valid. That's even intriguing.

17:20

But I feel like that just wasn't, it

17:22

wasn't there. And when you have such strong performances

17:24

that can carry all of that, it's just I

17:27

wanted there to be a little bit more. Yeah,

17:31

like a next level. I mean, the other

17:33

thing that's so interesting, and there have been

17:35

lots of movies about foreign

17:37

correspondence before, this sort of

17:39

puts the war correspondent in America, which is the

17:41

twist. Watching this movie made

17:43

me think a lot of the documentary we saw a

17:45

couple weeks ago for the show, 20 Days

17:48

in Moray Pole, which was, of course, a

17:50

documentary about someone who's doing more photography whose

17:54

a war correspondent in Ukraine. There's

17:56

a lot of aesthetics in this film

17:58

as well. There's a technique. The used

18:00

to wear the. Will. See

18:02

this photograph captured sometimes

18:05

after that journalist. Capture.

18:07

That, and of course, there is this

18:09

synchronicity between the photo journalist and the

18:12

director, right? Those are two people. Obsessed

18:15

with the composition of the frame

18:17

rate like the notion that director

18:19

would admire and want to replicate

18:21

the work of photo journalist. Totally

18:23

makes sense but. If

18:26

you really want to think about the

18:28

ethics as and the utility/utility as being

18:30

a war correspondent and you're willing to

18:32

watch something grizzly, I would probably tell

18:35

you to watch twenty Days a Mario

18:37

Paul rather than some. As well done

18:39

and well crafted as it is. And

18:42

and there's additionally, in terms of showing

18:44

the photography in quick moments in the

18:46

film. There's certain moments where it looks

18:48

like you're actually looking for a view

18:51

finder and the edges of the frame

18:53

start to get blurry. And I thought

18:55

that that was a really interesting. Technique

18:57

is well to sort of. Disorient or

19:00

orient you and specific moments when things are

19:02

happening. So yeah, there's a lot to like

19:04

about this movie. Or

19:06

it's so worth the writer director Alex Garland

19:09

latest shaping up to be a hit. We're

19:11

not violently divided. I don't think this is

19:13

gonna come to civil conflict, but the were

19:15

somewhat interesting. We divided. Check it out, Let

19:17

us know you think. Tank

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to Cadulthood by Valerie Trapp in

20:54

the April 10th Atlantic. It's about

20:57

adults who have stuffed

20:59

animals, blankies, or

21:02

keep up some of the quote-unquote quirky

21:04

conventions of childhood. The three of us

21:06

will discuss the piece and our individual

21:08

relationships to adulthood, comfort, or transition objects.

21:11

It should be a fun discussion. So

21:14

if you're a Slate Plus member, of course, you can hear

21:16

that extra content, but if you're not a Slate Plus member,

21:18

you can sign up today at slate.com slash

21:21

culture plus. Gerard

21:24

Carmichael is a very up-and-coming comedian. In

21:26

his special, Ross Daniel, he came out

21:28

as gay. For that special, he won

21:30

an Emmy Award and it quote-unquote catapulted

21:32

him to a new level of fame.

21:34

I'm quoting Nadira. She just wrote a

21:36

wonderful piece about Carmichael in

21:39

his new TV show, Gerard Carmichael Reality

21:41

Show. Your piece, Nadira, as you know,

21:43

is called, Who Did People

21:45

Think Gerard Carmichael Is? They're definitely

21:48

going to think something new now,

21:50

I would say. The show's

21:52

on max and it combines

21:54

snippets of stand-up with

21:56

his private life being filmed seemingly 24-7 or

21:58

at least The. Very.

22:00

Key and excruciating moment. It's a confessional

22:03

tour. a force. I think it's safe

22:05

to say either way, but it is

22:07

dividing audiences and as you say, need

22:10

your attacks on all sorts of touchy

22:12

subjects including love, friendship, loyalty, family work

22:14

and his inability to craft good versions

22:17

of whatever those things are as a

22:19

partner A or a son in the

22:21

clip or about. the here comes from

22:24

the first episode and with Carmichael confesses

22:26

his feelings towards his friend Tyler, the

22:28

creator, Tyler proceeds to brush him. Off

22:31

So Carmichael. finally. Corners.

22:33

Him with the cameras rolling and a month

22:35

as things outlets have a listen. Data

22:38

card or less Happy We're all.

22:44

Of them. As

22:47

high as Allah or do you not, Even his movies

22:49

are so that. The

22:54

reason I wanted to thought the on camera. Is

22:58

that I. Kind

23:00

of felt like a distance

23:02

between us. I. Have an

23:04

idea of what it is but what?

23:06

I think anything the I've discovered some

23:09

to have feelings for you and we

23:11

didn't talk about every level like we're.

23:14

I. Don't know if it wasn't too often thought

23:16

about or to. I.

23:19

Don't know, I don't know. I can

23:21

simply facilities love eating and I'll be

23:23

a little bit late. Like when you

23:25

said that I think I replied with

23:28

like something super mad normal regular like.

23:31

Us Congress Visitors.

23:35

Are typically ah. Yeah,

23:39

I did. Of

23:42

men. And he

23:44

says shown a direct you have

23:46

to sort of hold steady object

23:48

and think through what you're wanting.

23:51

It's not unfamiliar, it's like the

23:53

Seinfeld template meets the reality tv

23:55

template. but already your you know

23:57

what is doing it is in

23:59

justice Hence would so wonderful about

24:02

your piece. You're really reckoning with

24:04

the confusing. It

24:06

like a times are painfully naked.

24:08

Concessional? Really? I'm It's almost more

24:11

like Sylvia Plath or Robert Was

24:13

Poetry than it is like. Reality

24:15

Tv or Seinfeld Anyway, Go.

24:18

Tell me What? What Are you

24:20

make this crazy shit? Us I.

24:22

Love the cells so much and I say

24:24

this as someone who has had. A sort

24:27

of us and on relationship with reality.

24:29

T V Sometimes I love it, Sometimes

24:31

I just fundamentally don't understand why people

24:33

occupy their time. With it and

24:36

this is such a different.

24:38

Project. Or exploration or

24:40

experiment. Because I feel like

24:43

so much of reality, T V

24:45

is begging you to believe that

24:47

it's real when it's very clearly

24:50

fabricated and this. Is.

24:52

Something. That feels so real because

24:54

it's so raw it's so embarrassing

24:56

at times it's painful at times.

24:59

Where why would you want to

25:01

show this to the world? But

25:03

the fact that you're choosing to

25:05

show and have these intimate moments

25:07

recorded on camera and then broadcast

25:09

to anyone who has a Max.

25:11

Or H B O subscription. Complicates that

25:14

idea. You don't know if.

25:16

Because. There's a player, a sick. Intention.

25:19

Behind even the actions that are

25:21

present, you don't know if they're

25:24

really, truly real and. There's.

25:26

Something about the idea of

25:29

presenting. Hard. Truths.

25:31

About. Oneself and sort of using

25:33

cameras as a mirror that I

25:36

find fascinating and I signed to

25:38

be a sort of. Incredible

25:41

way to break the mold. Of reality

25:43

T V to break the mold of documentary

25:45

to break the mold of all of these

25:47

different sort of visual art forms that we

25:49

have in terms of telling stories that are

25:52

supposed to be real. And I

25:54

think. The point of

25:56

my piece is that it's

25:58

a very natural com. The

26:00

nation of everything that Drop Carmichael

26:02

has worked towards as a comedian.

26:04

His history. Of comedy

26:07

has always been a bow.

26:09

Denigrating himself or making. Fun of

26:11

himself or exploring things about himself

26:14

and the turn in that comes

26:16

with his special Russ Annual from

26:18

Twenty Twenty Two, the Emmy winning

26:20

special. Where. He comes out as

26:23

gay and it's If you haven't seen

26:25

it, it's It's phenomenal. It's amazing. It's

26:27

one of the best things that I

26:29

saw that year and a ten out

26:31

of ten would recommend. And there's this

26:33

thing that he does where he strikes

26:35

as balance seen, making fun of himself

26:37

but also deeply analyzing as if the

26:39

audience or his therapist. Deeply

26:41

analyzing his past trauma and

26:44

his family and his history.

26:47

And. I think because of

26:49

that people. They. Really warmed

26:51

up to him. A lot of

26:53

people that was their first exposure

26:55

to draw Gerrard Carmichael and. I.

26:58

Think they got a different. Picture of

27:00

who he is. And so what

27:02

he presents in the So What I think

27:04

it's also interesting and a decent all the

27:07

format stuff is was he presents the idea

27:09

that maybe he's actually just an asshole. maybe

27:11

he's really just not a good person. At

27:13

the end of the day he it's You

27:16

know there have seen all the episodes now

27:18

because I have screeners. I think as of

27:20

recording there's three of eight better currently released

27:23

and even in those first three episodes he

27:25

it is a bad. Friend: He constantly

27:27

cheats on his boyfriend he

27:29

know he is. Trying to strike

27:31

this balance between like encouraging his

27:34

best friends, Dreams of being an actress but also

27:36

kind of being an. asshole about it

27:38

and you get the sense that maybe

27:40

he's not really a great persists or

27:42

maybe at the very least to be

27:45

charitable he has a lot of things

27:47

he still needs to work out and

27:49

i don't think that audiences necessarily knew

27:51

what to do with that you know

27:54

they had the special they wanna be

27:56

sympathetic to him as he came out

27:58

and And he's trying to navigate his

28:01

relationship, and relationships plural, and settle into

28:03

that and navigating sex and navigating love.

28:05

And you want to give him grace

28:07

and space and you want to identify

28:10

with him. But then he

28:12

does things that are very honest to himself,

28:14

I would believe, that piss people off because

28:16

they are angering. Like for instance, the one

28:18

thing that got him into a lot of

28:21

controversy, which is making a sort

28:23

of slave joke about his relationship

28:25

to his white boyfriend. And

28:28

black audiences, particularly black queer

28:30

audiences, didn't like that. They did

28:32

not like that at all. And

28:34

my piece and the way that I feel about

28:36

the show is that it shouldn't

28:39

be surprising because the history of his

28:41

comedy has always been about himself pushing

28:43

the boundaries like what is okay and

28:45

what is not okay. And

28:48

maybe again, he's not a good person. But

28:50

I feel like we don't know

28:52

what to do with that as a

28:54

society. But I think that that is

28:56

so fascinating. Well,

28:59

it's definitely a great watch. I mean,

29:01

there's a reason that people

29:04

root for him despite the fact that he's

29:06

maybe not a nice person as the show reveals,

29:08

even in its early episodes. He's

29:10

really compelling. He's really funny. He's really

29:12

charismatic. There's a reason his career is

29:14

on the rise, right? He's

29:17

very, very talented and

29:19

charming. And you see that

29:21

on display. I saw

29:23

Gerard Michael, Reality Show on Mac as the

29:26

title. And even the title, the sort of

29:28

deadpan title that sounds like it's a kind

29:30

of the working title for the show is

29:33

like a kind of a joke, right? And

29:35

so I assumed that it wasn't going to be

29:37

straight reality TV. It was going to be some kind

29:39

of comedy art project from Gerard Carmichael. And

29:43

you know, was excited for that. And then as I

29:46

was watching it, I was like, maybe,

29:49

is this just reality TV, but

29:51

with good taste for smart people?

29:54

Like the thing I object to in The

29:56

Hangout Reality TV, The Charismatic Star

29:59

Reality TV. Is it

30:01

was the idea of where heuristically

30:03

watching someone perform their lives and

30:05

more just how stupid an annoyingly

30:07

those shows are made with the

30:09

kind of every possibly dramatic scene.

30:12

You. See three times to see it before the

30:14

commercial break in that you see it again and and

30:16

you see the flashback to it when the people talk

30:18

to camera about how upset they were when they threw

30:20

the drink or whomever the whatever it like. The.

30:23

Production of those shows sucks and

30:25

the production of this show is

30:27

gorgeous. It has a really rise

30:29

sense of humor, has an incredible

30:31

you're an eye for the subtlety

30:33

of human interaction for that kind

30:35

of tension in a quick exchange

30:37

rate. There's like a little moment

30:39

where his assistant cause room service

30:41

to get herself a spicy margarita

30:43

and forgets to get has coffee.

30:45

Brave of. You

30:47

know they don't turn it into like

30:50

a five episode arc that it sets

30:52

the texture in. That tone in the

30:54

comfort in that it reveals character. It's like

30:56

a great little moment. And the soaps. Portrays.

30:59

It and then moves on. You know neither

31:01

makes it the battle of Up Mannix know

31:03

we're. Leaves it out on the

31:05

cutting room floor. It just is incredibly skilled

31:08

and it's craftsmanship and so that. Or maybe

31:10

that. that's. The. The. Gag is

31:12

that. It's just it's just

31:14

the Kardashians but elevated. And

31:17

then as the plotlines unfurl.

31:20

You. Begin to feel. That you're in the presence

31:22

of them, Have a. Extremely.

31:24

Complicated and. Broken.

31:28

Character who is trying to explicitly

31:30

reckon with his broken nurse. But.

31:34

Is. Definitely midstream. Since projects, you

31:36

know there's a moment where he

31:38

does something very rude to an

31:40

old friend and then he doesn't

31:43

like an apology tour. That.

31:45

You know, as anybody's than around a twelve

31:47

step program knows the the purpose of the

31:49

apology. Does that is

31:52

shouldn't be to make you feel better or

31:54

to make you look better. The apology tour

31:56

in episode three here feels like it's a

31:58

little bit more focused. on I'm

32:01

a good person, then I

32:03

want to make amends. So the

32:06

third episode concludes with him kind

32:08

of storming a friend's home and

32:11

forcing the friend to be recorded

32:13

while listening to a public act

32:15

that is intended as an apology

32:17

and essentially dragooning the friend into

32:21

public acceptance of his

32:23

contrition, which is so nasty. But

32:28

the whole thing is so smart that I, I

32:30

don't have the screeners, so I've just watched the ones that

32:32

are out, but I think I will keep watching it because

32:34

it's so smartly told that

32:36

I still can't tell whether he

32:38

is or is not in

32:40

on the arc of that evolution. Like that

32:43

was episode three. Maybe it's gonna figure that

32:45

out by episode five because it's moving so

32:47

fast. I can't wait to watch the rest

32:49

of it. I mean, there's no way I'm

32:51

not going to. It's totally riveting television for

32:53

all the reasons. First of all, you

32:55

know, it takes what was

32:57

the very weakest aspect of

33:00

Seinfeld and turns it into a truth

33:02

strength. I mean, Seinfeld just wasn't a

33:04

funny standup comedian. And so the original

33:06

conceit of the show of toggling back

33:09

and forth between his standup, which draws

33:11

upon his real life and

33:13

his supposed real life in the fictional

33:15

world of the TV show. That's wonderful

33:17

here because Gerard Carmichael is an extraordinary

33:19

comic. I'm not familiar enough with the

33:21

history of standup comedy to know how

33:24

many sit down standup comics there have

33:26

been. But I love that

33:28

he's just seated in a chair. He

33:31

has such a captivating physical

33:33

presence throughout the show, right? He's

33:35

for a man now in his

33:37

late thirties, he's impossibly lean and

33:40

really graceful in his physical presence.

33:42

But on stage on that chair,

33:45

he's in a therapy session with

33:48

an unremittingly

33:50

pitiless therapist, which is effectively the

33:53

audience. And he has this Highly

33:55

developed rapport with his audience..

33:58

He's super conversational style. Congressional

34:00

style. It seems totally spontaneous

34:03

and unrehearsed, and yet he's

34:05

a very. Is one

34:07

of those brilliant speakers. There's never an

34:10

hour or and on there a long

34:12

pauses. He seems to think about what

34:14

he's gonna saying very considerately east to

34:16

supremely clever and precise in his verbal

34:18

formulations. And so when the relationship with

34:21

the audience becomes interactive which is almost

34:23

seems to be near part of the

34:25

act or at least part of the

34:27

act. Now where people call him on

34:30

his bullshit, it's almost an invitation to

34:32

intelligently right you. You wouldn't want to

34:34

be at Dunder Had doing it. And

34:36

in the. Snippets We have their

34:38

supremely intelligent, highly targeted criticisms of

34:41

him coming spontaneous leave from the

34:43

audience. They're so smart you would

34:45

never call them heckling, and the

34:47

way he pauses absorbs them and

34:50

he takes the pain and physical

34:52

eyes of the pain of hearing

34:54

them and then comes back with

34:56

a retort that's totally not embittered

34:59

or retributive to the person who

35:01

said the thing, acknowledging it's truth,

35:03

but turning it just so so.

35:05

The it now combines. With his

35:07

wit in his powers of observation, he

35:10

just a supremely intelligent man. And he

35:12

grew up poor in black in America,

35:14

right? So he has a very interesting

35:16

we different. Background. Than

35:18

his presumably Than is hyper literate white

35:20

boyfriend who appears to me to be

35:23

at the Iowa Ryan's I flunked out

35:25

whatever. yes, who's who's and their relationship

35:27

is totally captivating. What a lovely young

35:29

miss. That person has never been on

35:31

a reality tv show to pick up

35:33

a what do you have a saying

35:35

in the history of reality Tv? that

35:37

human being bad. Quality. It's

35:40

youth like. like precise. sociological,

35:42

tight as never been. On

35:44

a reality tv. he has. Gifted.

35:47

To. gerard carmichael books that are the books

35:49

that are in my house and the all

35:51

over the house of a drug karmacally makes

35:53

a joke about i was never read them

35:55

but he's kind of trying to read them

35:57

i mean there was a of i think

36:00

of the first shots of the boyfriend, he's holding a

36:02

New York review of books

36:04

classics, book imprint,

36:06

you're like, what am I watching?

36:09

And that's like, and it's also known. I

36:11

mean, I feel like Gerard Carmichael 100% understand

36:15

that the scene where he makes his friend

36:18

accept his apology publicly is itself fucked up.

36:20

And he sort of actually can't resist it,

36:22

but he also is sort of doing it

36:24

because he knows it's such good

36:26

entertainment and the line between how much of

36:29

this is actual therapy and how

36:31

much of it is a performance of therapy that

36:33

he's already like seven light years beyond. Like he

36:35

is trolling you with that New York review of

36:37

books cover, Steve, he put that there. He got

36:40

there. You would say that. He wins. So

36:43

he wins, Mark, because I think

36:45

throughout his comedy and throughout the show,

36:47

as you guys are pointing to, there's,

36:50

you're never sure if what

36:53

you are watching was truly just

36:55

spur of the moment, something

36:58

that he had to say or do or

37:00

an impulse he had, whether it's negative or

37:02

positive or whether it was meticulously

37:05

planned and presented as if it was spur

37:07

of the moment. And I, if you told

37:09

me this whole thing was scripted, I would

37:11

also believe that. But if you also told

37:13

me, and wouldn't care, right? But

37:16

if you also told me that actually nobody in

37:19

his camera crew knew what the fuck he was

37:21

going to do at any second,

37:23

I would also believe that.

37:25

And I love that dichotomy. And

37:28

I think when you present yourself

37:30

as an unlikable character, but you

37:32

are also urging people to believe

37:34

you, but also kind of

37:36

wink, wink, daring you not to, people

37:38

do not know where to place you,

37:40

what to do with that, how to

37:42

feel. And I think that that reaction

37:45

is almost as interesting

37:47

as the show itself. And

37:49

there's a quality of his work, all

37:51

of his work, where it

37:53

always feels like a work in progress,

37:56

even if you're watching the final

37:58

edited cut of the book. Burnham-directed,

38:00

Nathaniel Emmy award-winning special, right? It

38:02

still feels kind of like a

38:04

work in progress. And

38:07

I think that there's so much in

38:09

flux and so much that you're

38:11

unsure of watching him that it's captivating,

38:13

but that it's, I almost have as

38:15

much fun reading the comments of people

38:17

trying to understand it on

38:19

Twitter as I do watching the actual show.

38:22

Like, it's such an interesting study

38:25

just of humanity and relationships and

38:27

celebrity. All right,

38:29

we'll leave it there. It's Gerard Carmichael

38:31

Reality Show. And Nadeer's piece, I

38:34

should say, is Who Did People Think Gerard

38:36

Carmichael Is? It's terrific. It's up on the

38:38

slate. Check it out. Hi

38:53

there. It's Julia Louise Reifas. You may know

38:55

me from my podcast called Wiser Than Me,

38:57

where I talk to older women and get

38:59

their wisdom from the front lines of life.

39:02

I was amazed by how many people

39:04

told me our show made them look

39:06

forward to getting older, which is why

39:08

I'm here to talk about season two

39:10

of the show. Sally Fields, Billie Jean

39:12

King, Beverly Johnson, Ina Garten, Bonnie Ray,

39:14

just to name a few. All

39:17

Hail Old Women. Wiser Than Me season

39:19

two is out now from Lemonado Media.

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in all states and situations. Alright,

40:29

now is the moment on our podcast when we

40:32

endorse Nadira. What do you have? Um, see, what

40:34

about our third segment? Yeah,

40:37

you know like this. Third segment, what do

40:39

you mean third segment? Well, okay, usually as someone

40:41

who is an assistant on the show, I feel

40:43

like you should, usually you do

40:45

a third segment. Nadira, I have literally no

40:47

idea what you're talking about. I read a

40:49

whole article, I've read a whole, what do

40:51

you mean? Nadira, this is a two segment

40:53

show. It is and it always has

40:56

been. You're a guest on the show and you're

40:58

filling in for Dana. Now is

41:00

the moment in our podcast when we

41:02

endorse Nadira. I hate

41:04

this so much. Oh,

41:06

it's so cruel. Okay,

41:10

the third segment, which in fact we do

41:12

do on the show is about gaslighting. It

41:14

is specifically, what would you call it?

41:16

Sort of a piece of reported criticism by

41:19

the author Leslie Jamison. It's called, So

41:21

You Think You've Been Gaslight? It's in

41:23

the New Yorker, April 1st, 2000. It's

41:26

funny, April 1st, 2024. I

41:30

just noticed that. Anyway,

41:32

it's a fascinating piece of critical

41:34

journalism exploring what this now ubiquitous

41:36

term means, politically,

41:39

practically, morally. Many people are thinking

41:41

about it obviously, both professionally and

41:43

in their own personal relationships.

41:47

And it examines whether, I think in a

41:49

very patient and very intelligent way, it examines

41:51

whether it's possible, it's come to be so

41:53

overused as to be useless.

41:56

Let me give you a couple of quotes. She

41:58

quotes someone named, Abertin, who says that... Lighting

42:00

is an active grievous moral wrongdoing,

42:02

which inflicts a kind of quote

42:04

unquote, existential silencing a therapist says

42:06

didn't hurt twenty years of practice.

42:09

The pattern is confident high achieving

42:11

women were being caught in demoralizing,

42:13

destructive, and bewildering relationships that caused

42:15

women to question their own sense

42:17

of reality. Do you? let me

42:19

start with you, because you're a

42:21

journalist in an editor and we've

42:24

done pieces like this before, notably

42:26

the Perils, The Gall piece on

42:28

Trauma very similar p Saying. That

42:30

it was an overused in there for

42:32

quickly becoming empty Phrase: would you make

42:34

of it. As a. Piece.

42:37

Of Journalism and. By. The concept

42:39

behind it. It's. Such a

42:41

smart essay and and so glad that

42:43

As and Road at Our Inner that

42:45

the term gaslight has been eating at

42:47

me and bothering me since it became

42:50

prominent a few years ago. And

42:52

then been a couple essays there's one in the

42:54

Atlantic. A couple years ago that sort of explore the

42:56

phenomenon. History The what I think sets this

42:58

one. Apart and makes it feel to

43:01

me doesn't it is? And really scratch

43:03

the itch of helping me understand why

43:05

the over use to the term bothers

43:07

me so much is. That.

43:09

It takes seriously that this is a real. Psychological

43:11

phenomenon that does exist and

43:13

also is really serious about

43:16

both the victims and the

43:18

victimizers here and kind of

43:20

and covers. More. Surprising.

43:24

Conclusions about what gas lighting is

43:26

and when it tends to happen

43:28

then you might expect so the

43:30

usage that she finds irritating which

43:33

is the same whether I find

43:35

irritating is that when. People.

43:37

Are experiencing the friction of disagreement.

43:40

Sometimes they will accuse the person

43:42

who has the opposing view of.

43:44

Gas lighting them and it's a way of

43:46

making some Everly. Disagreement seen pathological and

43:49

wrong and sinister and creepy and.

43:51

Malevolent in having the temerity to disagree

43:53

with them and it's kind of shuts

43:55

off the debate. It's a it's a

43:58

conversation and are not a conversation are

44:00

there because if the accused guess I'd

44:02

are says oh no I'm not gas

44:04

lighting you I just think something different.

44:06

The alleged guess lady can be like

44:09

of course he would say that you're

44:11

denying my reality which his own. Of

44:13

Which is what I think it. It's so that, so

44:15

that was. Satisfying.

44:17

That it's a way of. Kind of

44:19

cutting off disagreement and weaponizing. Disagreement

44:22

when it's misused. What was interesting

44:25

to me about when it's used

44:27

properly is sort of the kind

44:29

of symbiotic relationship between the gas

44:31

later in the gas id and

44:33

and also the conclusion that the

44:35

relationship it's most susceptible to this

44:37

is the parent child relationship in

44:39

addition to certain romantic relationship. So

44:41

anyway, I just had that satisfying

44:43

feeling of having and it's scratched

44:45

reading. This essay and I'm curious. Whether you

44:47

guys had a similar experience, Yeah, I

44:49

thought this essay was great. I think

44:52

that it touched on. Every

44:54

aspect of how we conceive

44:56

of. Gas lighting as Julia was

44:58

hanged and I thought that some

45:00

of the quotes that. The.

45:03

Peace has. Are. Are really

45:05

fascinating and really interesting. There's a part sort

45:07

of towards the. End where.

45:10

Jamison Interviews. Someone

45:12

I believe a psychologists psychiatrists the

45:15

I'm not entirely sure. And

45:17

they basically say that as much. As

45:19

we use. Gas. Lighting. Or think

45:21

of gas lighting. As a way to

45:23

assess a relationship or to assess

45:25

the person who. Is doing

45:27

the victimizing. It's also, if you find

45:30

yourself in a habit of being Catholic

45:32

often, it is also a useful tool

45:34

to assess yourself, not necessarily in a

45:37

victim blaming sense, but more so to

45:39

learn what you are vulnerabilities and your

45:41

susceptibility is are like I thought that

45:43

that. Was fascinating that something that

45:46

I haven't necessarily thought about. I

45:48

think my issue with these. Conversations.

45:52

Generally I and them sort of feeling

45:54

like okay well what do I do

45:56

now like it's a useful. Term in

45:58

certain cases, but it is. For being

46:00

over used in certain cases and

46:03

like many it's therapeutic term it

46:05

is. Vulnerable. To

46:07

being used against the person who

46:09

is you know, actually struggling and

46:11

some sort of conversation or conflict

46:13

or whatever. And it reminds

46:15

me of the a legit text

46:18

messages from actor Jonah Hill that

46:20

were. Released or published

46:22

to social media from his ex

46:24

girlfriend. Were these text messages whether

46:26

they were truly his are not.

46:29

Were full of a partner

46:31

using therapy speak to actually

46:33

put down their partner. sit

46:35

use saying things like one.

46:37

My boundaries are that I

46:40

don't like that you were.

46:42

A bathing suit when you're surfing receipt and

46:44

set of a full wet suit or whatever

46:46

it is. And it's like she's

46:48

a professional surfer. I think that wearing

46:50

a bathing suit isn't necessarily it doesn't

46:53

follow any someone's boundaries rights, but it's

46:55

very clear that. The

46:57

person in those text messages weather does

47:00

Jonah Hill or not has used Therapy

47:02

speak. To. Manipulate.

47:05

Their. Partner and I just think that

47:07

it happens It, It happened. with nagging.

47:09

It happened with Paris Social. It's happening

47:11

with gas lighting. It just happens. And

47:14

so I don't necessarily know what to

47:16

do after I read these, even if

47:18

they're very well crafted, very well thought

47:21

out arguments or explorations of a word

47:23

and it's over usage. I don't necessarily

47:25

know what to do with that information,

47:28

and I think that. That is kind

47:30

of where I landed with this, but

47:32

I do agree that the piece itself

47:34

was was very good year North Dakota's

47:37

terrific. I mean I think that in

47:39

the aftermath especially me to the height

47:41

of me to and the one thing

47:43

revelations there was an emergency rebalancing that

47:45

had the happens and. Is. Concerned.

47:49

The power relations between men and women.

47:52

And by necessity. It

48:00

because. The going into

48:02

so many relationships between men

48:04

and women the field is

48:07

so tilted in favor of

48:09

men obviously in the case

48:11

of wine Steam massively so,

48:13

the treating it like an

48:15

ordinary interpersonal relationship between two

48:17

equals was nonsensical and would.

48:20

Keep. The. Cycle

48:22

of victimization. The problem

48:24

then comes when. We.

48:27

Pretend that are to a levy

48:29

Aids what can often be a

48:32

fundamentally epistemological problem. Which is you

48:34

know, Most relationships.

48:37

Involves. A. High degree

48:39

of subjectivity and ceiling

48:41

and lack a corresponding

48:43

neutral third party or

48:46

objective standard of judgments.

48:49

As one of the people says

48:51

in the Peace this is often

48:53

people involved and romantic relationships and

48:55

it is possible. And I hope

48:57

that the piece points to Julia's

48:59

you sort of indicates it's it's

49:02

it's It's possible for saying to

49:04

someone your gas lighting me to

49:06

be the ultimate gaslight and you're

49:08

suddenly you've gone from. If

49:11

pushed too far you you go

49:13

from and necessarily politicized. Or.

49:15

I should say necessary politicization

49:18

of romantic relationships and power

49:20

relationships based on gender to.

49:23

A. Sort of Henry James in. Nightmare.

49:26

Where where the truth.

49:28

Disappears completely into to coequal people's

49:31

feelings. I mean, think about to

49:33

make it a little more concrete.

49:35

I'm a bit about romantic relationships.

49:38

that there is. The essence of

49:40

a romantic relationship is that reality

49:42

isn't entirely neutral thing. disappears. I

49:45

mean they're based entirely on a

49:47

set of highly subjective feelings, as

49:49

the piece argued quite intelligently, often

49:52

rooted in ones earliest relationships with

49:54

parents and secondly with in romantic

49:57

relationships power is often. Radically

49:59

and. The able in it's

50:01

distribution between the two parties and

50:03

very often doesn't track. Race:

50:06

Class and gender. I mean it. It's not that

50:08

it. It neutralizes. Those

50:10

those are never neutralized. But the idea

50:12

that you can look at to people

50:14

and say because one is a man

50:16

and one is a woman because one

50:18

is black and one is why Because

50:20

one is still in the blank like

50:23

one was born rich and one was

50:25

born poor. The idea that power distributes

50:27

in a romantic relationship based solely on

50:29

those things is false and so the

50:31

I did. You can resume route resort

50:33

to that as the objective fact of

50:35

the relationship there for this party owns

50:37

the right to. They are subjectivity. Over.

50:39

The other person's right to subjectivity and

50:42

therefore gets the say you are gas

50:44

lighting me with authority. I think that's

50:46

false and I think that fat ends

50:48

up being. Almost. Completely

50:50

demolished by this piece. Well,

50:53

she does talk about the fact. That. The pattern

50:55

tends to be that the person that

50:57

more social power of way I'm kind

51:00

throw as the more ability to cause

51:02

at the you note i actual gas

51:04

lighting is when the gas id. Is.

51:07

Cause to question their own perception of

51:09

reality and and no longer even understands

51:11

with trail that's not what I think

51:14

is also sort of the useful distinction

51:16

from just the as being like wanted

51:18

by her access Les M. At. Night.

51:20

I mean, I think it's really interesting

51:23

actually. That the. Smartest

51:25

essays about the ovaries of

51:27

trauma and overuse of gas

51:29

lighting. A were written by

51:31

pearls at all unless a Jamison in

51:33

a protocol incredible critic of books six.

51:35

In a non less Jamison the

51:37

novelist like they're the way in

51:39

which. Being a novel, are seeking to

51:41

understand the novel. Is. Sort

51:43

of about trying to understand different

51:46

psychologies and and doing it with

51:48

a goal of the empathetic understanding

51:50

the lived experience that everyone from

51:53

you know that the Must wear

51:55

the. Human. On Earth to

51:57

that the biggest monster that ever lived.

52:00

Sit at the Time is almost clinical.

52:02

I did, but that is applied in

52:04

both of these essays to like what.

52:07

The. Actual emotional harm is of the

52:10

clinical version of these things and

52:12

how they've become slippery in their

52:14

definition and discussion and our understanding.

52:16

Of an array of person on political

52:18

dynamics is I think part of what

52:20

distinguishes Sam and an to come back

52:22

to your question Indira like. I

52:24

don't know that the goal. Is for it to be

52:26

acceptable to me? I think. There.

52:28

Are two different ways in which these

52:30

terms can be used dangerously and badly.

52:32

One of which is of course you

52:34

are in an interpersonal relationship with someone

52:36

who accuses you of gas lighting and

52:39

you feel at is not what has

52:41

been done or you are in one

52:43

where you are accusing someone somewhat softly

52:45

of gas lighting and and perhaps it

52:47

would be more widely distributed wisdom to

52:49

either of or understand those circumstances and

52:51

not t that lately. Into personally and

52:53

then I think. There's. Kind of the political use

52:55

of like Trump of gas Lighting America

52:57

which perhaps there's someone who wants to

52:59

mount argument that that is the specific

53:02

harm that Trump me had has done

53:04

to America. I'm not sure. To

53:06

That's. Why?

53:09

to? What? He's done. But

53:11

the other value of an essay like this

53:13

is just putting little ping in the heads

53:15

of people who are thinking about the culture.

53:18

And maybe that's not the most precise way

53:20

to understand. Any particular development to

53:22

which it might be applied. So I think

53:24

it's like. An

53:26

hour and interpret as eight sleep only.

53:29

That is the value of yes, I

53:31

like that. I think any. definitely. And

53:33

in terms of an interpretive A: it's

53:35

like I was saying before. It definitely

53:37

helps me think about different aspects of

53:40

deciding. One thing that I think it

53:42

sort of touched on. it got near

53:44

to, but didn't fully go there, which

53:46

is understandable because it goes so many

53:48

places that I've I didn't necessarily feel

53:51

like it needed to, but I always

53:53

think of gas lighting. In, it's

53:55

sort of most invasive for

53:57

me as being structural or

53:59

institution. And I feel

54:01

like when we think or talk about gas

54:03

lighting, we never really talk about the fact

54:06

that it can be systemic and. It's.

54:08

It's this piece almost gets there.

54:10

Were. You know that there's a

54:12

sort of entire experience of marginalized groups

54:15

that having gas slit whether by the

54:17

government or just by like the structures

54:19

that be any kind of touches on.

54:22

Specific instances of that, like

54:24

women. You know, being under

54:26

diagnosed, her endometriosis because their pain isn't

54:28

taken seriously and all these kinds of

54:31

situations. And I think that that

54:33

is also. A sort of

54:35

untapped. Ah well of

54:37

discussing gas lighting as a

54:40

tactical message to manipulate or.

54:42

To coerce or to oppress. And

54:44

I like that the peace touched

54:46

on it ends sort of. Got

54:49

close. but yeah, it's. It's something the

54:51

I sort of always think about when I think about

54:53

that fighting. but. I find the other

54:55

people really confinement to that's interpersonal, expressly

54:57

romantic situation and and like not even

55:00

saying anything about parents which this article

55:02

says a lot about. Will. The

55:04

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it now is the moment in our part. Guess when

55:59

doors maduro. What Do you have? So I have

56:01

a few endorsements like all his other. The

56:03

first you will be very quick. The first

56:05

one is that I saw the with the

56:07

new revive of the with on Broadway and

56:10

it was really fun. It was modernized and

56:12

what I think is a smart way and

56:14

my mother and I loved it. ends so

56:16

yes so go check that out of your

56:18

in the area or if it goes on

56:20

tour. My second very very quick endorsement as

56:22

I went to Cosco for the first time

56:24

yesterday and that was a lot. Of fun

56:27

for everyone. Should go And my dad yeah

56:29

I've I've and. Of only went for the

56:31

first time, like two years ago, and my

56:33

mind was blown, I guess of this is

56:35

like Nydia and Juliet Paul Sky Blue. That.

56:38

Place is crazy. That place is amazing. I

56:40

did you eat from the food court and

56:42

we should talk about. This at a

56:44

specific type of remembered for yes

56:47

but keep going on. Go Pasco

56:49

is another and or since my

56:51

actual endorsements is for Willow. Smith

56:53

of the musician daughter of

56:56

willing to to Smith who

56:58

goes that monotonously by Willow.

57:00

Her recent single called Big

57:02

Ceilings dropped I wanna say

57:04

last week it's the first

57:07

single for. Her upcoming album.

57:09

And Passage in which I believe

57:11

drop them a third and Willow

57:13

has just had such an interesting

57:15

career have thus far. She popped

57:17

off of the scene with With

57:19

My Hair when she was very,

57:21

very young. I think that's it.

57:24

the experience of that. Song going

57:26

mega viral and being really popular

57:28

kind of was a bit. Scarring.

57:30

For her in the way that

57:33

seed immediately became a product and

57:35

so she. Rebelled against that and

57:37

now and her adulthood, she has

57:39

had a sort of smattering level

57:41

of success by releasing. Projects

57:44

every few years that always have have

57:46

a very very popular hit single that

57:48

you know goes mega viral and tic

57:50

toc or whatever it is built. Most

57:52

recent one was twenty twenties. Meet me

57:54

at our spot. Which went viral

57:56

and. Ever since then she kind

57:58

of. you know, see. just really. The songs here and

58:01

there but she's not a big name that

58:03

you would think of when he think of

58:05

the daughter of will in Jesus and I

58:07

think with that has afforded her is the

58:09

ability to. Be freely experimental

58:11

with her music. And to

58:13

learn different genres to really learn

58:15

their voices, an instrument and the

58:17

guitar as an instrument to work

58:19

with people. From all different walks

58:22

of musical life And she has

58:24

arrived at what I'm excited for

58:26

which is her upcoming album but

58:28

specifically. Of the single Big

58:30

Feelings is any indication she

58:33

has arrived at this really

58:35

interesting for lox of. The.

58:37

Genre is it's like part

58:39

jazz, part pop, part. Just.

58:42

I guess Contemporary? Whatever you know,

58:45

contemporary popular music. As today and

58:47

you know it plays with instruments and

58:49

time signature and all of these things

58:51

and her voices the used really intricately

58:53

on it and I loved the single

58:55

but I'm just really excited for of

58:57

the entire side of the album for

58:59

where she doesn't the future and so

59:01

my endorsement is just for Willow and

59:03

for following her career and checking in

59:05

with her every now and again to

59:07

see what he's really and specifically. For

59:09

the single Big Feeling. I

59:12

wait a minute and meet me at

59:14

or spot or to move. Favorite songs

59:17

Me and it was exactly that you

59:19

just messing with. Why isn't this person?

59:21

It's like the anti Nebo baby or

59:23

something. right? Like not getting

59:25

for stone. anybody's through and the and

59:28

the product is fucking amazing. You could

59:30

have com is it a come from

59:32

anybody else? I must be bigger right

59:34

now so I'm super psyched to. Do

59:37

you? Would you have. Well speaking

59:39

of places where you go and they make

59:42

you mad with consumer frenzy and. You everything

59:44

you see a Costco. I was recently

59:46

in the bookstore Heathrow Airport and there

59:48

is nothing that will make you lose

59:51

your mind like an airport bookstore with.

59:53

Half an hour to kill and. Somehow.

59:56

Despite being on the way home with overstepped

59:58

bags to a house full. That

1:00:00

we haven't read. My husband and I went

1:00:02

on like a total shock and beamer. Like

1:00:04

maybe. I will read this weird book about

1:00:06

the history of Albania and among. The books

1:00:09

that we bought in the heat or

1:00:11

bookstore which I thought perhaps was going

1:00:13

to prove to be a British rarity

1:00:16

that would be hard for our listeners

1:00:18

to find that in fact is the

1:00:20

product of a Los Angeles based puzzler

1:00:23

and available through American publishers is Myrtle

1:00:25

Or Us. Where Myrtle. Whether.

1:00:28

Know. Okay, so Myrtle is

1:00:30

an essentially what if you

1:00:32

crossed and l sat logic

1:00:34

puddle puzzle with a murder

1:00:36

mystery and. Six a little daily puzzle

1:00:38

where you get a bunch of like clues

1:00:40

and descriptions about like well if you know

1:00:43

character A as acts and character three smoke

1:00:45

cigarettes and character be and green eyes and

1:00:47

then here's a bunch of facts and figure

1:00:49

out who did the murder with lot where

1:00:51

it's like clue. Plus. Sudoku

1:00:53

and site where picked it up thinking

1:00:55

like only this myth and for the

1:00:58

plane and then as I was traveling

1:01:00

with may eleven year old boys over.

1:01:02

The. Case In We started doing it and it was

1:01:05

just like the perfect. Level for

1:01:07

that age son little puzzles like a

1:01:09

good thing to do kind of it

1:01:11

dinner waiting for the food to com

1:01:13

in of smartly written in some hims

1:01:15

just execution of a puzzle like that

1:01:17

will either make you want to jump

1:01:20

on a window and stab your eyes

1:01:22

out or be tolerable company in this.

1:01:24

One definitely isn't the pleasant

1:01:26

company category in there are

1:01:28

three compendiums, as Myrtle is

1:01:30

a compendium any way. To

1:01:32

three bucks of myrtles out there were about

1:01:34

halfway through, but widen the puzzle Seem like

1:01:36

they get a little bit more complicated as

1:01:38

the book. Goes. Along and I

1:01:40

don't know if a reset doctor booker

1:01:42

get harder and harder anyway. Model

1:01:45

that's also be supportive. Sudoku and

1:01:47

spelling bee timer at all. It's.

1:01:49

Not a British rarity that's not available

1:01:51

on the source. He didn't take it

1:01:53

up anywhere bucks or bookstore. Am,

1:01:56

so I'm glad I slept at least that one

1:01:58

home from Heathrow. and I do not. Yet

1:02:00

know any more than I used to you about this

1:02:02

dream of Albania. I can't wait to

1:02:04

try them. I love those kinds of like singing

1:02:06

puzzle. Yes and I should say these are the. The

1:02:08

productive D T Harbor who is

1:02:10

the L A based mystery as

1:02:13

the scenario and puzzle maker behind

1:02:15

Myrtle. The going to check

1:02:17

it out to movie with along

1:02:19

with the New Willow song. Okay so

1:02:22

this is a endorsement the builds on

1:02:24

a previous endorsement but I promise it

1:02:26

go someplace importantly New Duck or

1:02:28

ourselves as the book group for the

1:02:31

Washington Post and I was aware of

1:02:33

her being a tremendously good daily paper

1:02:35

critics on the order of Toy Corner

1:02:38

and really admired her stuff on our

1:02:40

Fred just of had feel li

1:02:42

in for and beautifully argued and in

1:02:44

many ways appropriately ruthless take. Down of

1:02:46

a writer I'm a pile on and and

1:02:49

name the writer again boats And that led

1:02:51

me to her forthcoming book. things are too

1:02:53

Small actually forthcoming. It's Out was forthcoming when

1:02:56

I. Would. Lead to and it's

1:02:58

now outs Things are too small by

1:03:00

Becker Rothfeld which I've never read most

1:03:02

of in preparation for a segment we're

1:03:04

going to do with Becker Rothfeld next

1:03:06

week that the importantly new new place

1:03:08

so. Agenda Item number One

1:03:10

please go out and purchase and read

1:03:13

back or ourselves, things are too small.

1:03:15

It is so incredibly good. And secondly,

1:03:17

let me tell you exactly why. in

1:03:19

addition to being at her homework from

1:03:22

us it's It's such a I will

1:03:24

say Macmillan's website as a really good

1:03:26

job of summing up some just gonna

1:03:28

quote that the Glorious called a throw

1:03:31

off restraint in balance in favor of

1:03:33

excess abandoned and disproportion. And it's It's

1:03:35

more than that and they get at

1:03:37

that as well. It really is. It's

1:03:40

a political book in ways that I

1:03:42

don't the got fully understood it was

1:03:44

going to be going in, but I

1:03:46

find myself totally convinced of our and

1:03:48

very moved by in some sense that

1:03:51

it's sort of a just take on

1:03:53

the limits of justice. And the justice

1:03:55

has certain realms in which that should

1:03:57

be the governing concepts and she brilliantly

1:03:59

invokes folks. John Rawls, who appears to

1:04:01

be her favorite political thought philosopher, is

1:04:04

probably my favorite political philosopher as well.

1:04:06

And then all these other realms that

1:04:08

we've. Imposed justice upon namely,

1:04:10

culture and interpersonal relationships. or at

1:04:12

least a reductive notion of justice.

1:04:15

In part because we're frustrated that

1:04:17

we couldn't successfully impose it on

1:04:19

the world of economics and politics,

1:04:21

and so we're looking to equalize.

1:04:23

Certain things in other realms were

1:04:26

equalizing is totally antithetical to the

1:04:28

nature of, for example, are or

1:04:30

the way we live or where

1:04:32

we live for how we decorates.

1:04:34

And it's this kind of compensatory

1:04:37

search for. The. The

1:04:39

kind is a oh no. Equilibria

1:04:41

of Justice in for example, our

1:04:43

homes. that leads to me a

1:04:46

condo and the Cult of Murray

1:04:48

a condo. And anyway,

1:04:50

she takes the sub. it's on. one

1:04:52

after the other begins just by reading.

1:04:54

The free eggs are not absorbed online.

1:04:57

A Harper's published it I think Also,

1:04:59

Macmillan's website has it's This is brilliantly

1:05:01

carefully argued. I love that it brings

1:05:03

in effortlessly. Marks Rawls Wh Auden, the

1:05:06

poet Robert Hasim known as Thought About

1:05:08

for God knows how long's Anyway, I

1:05:10

think the book is marvelous numbers. Just

1:05:12

go ahead and use the a double

1:05:15

S word Susan Sontag. I mean, it's

1:05:17

kind of reminding me of the Revelation.

1:05:19

Of reading against interpretation of missed

1:05:21

the brilliant brilliant. Book. And

1:05:23

I couldn't have more respect for us. And

1:05:25

we're so excited to have come on the

1:05:27

show next week. So you might want to

1:05:29

just get get to speed to make that

1:05:31

segment more enjoyable to listen to me, you'll

1:05:33

have an extraordinary book in your possession if

1:05:35

you do some back. or ah, sold. All

1:05:37

things are too small. With

1:05:41

your thank you so much for coming

1:05:43

on the shows! Really really really fun

1:05:45

of time. Every time Has only thing

1:05:47

for having me and the app and

1:05:49

Juliet a really fun! So yes Clinton,

1:05:51

you'll find links to some of the

1:05:53

things we talked about today are so

1:05:55

Page That Sleep.coms les Quatre Fests and

1:05:57

you can email as a culture festival.

1:06:00

the.com introductory music to our shows

1:06:02

by the wonderful Nicholas Purcell reproductive

1:06:04

system is cap on or producers

1:06:06

tear down for didn't direct often

1:06:08

julius or and even Mecca. Thank

1:06:10

you so much for joining us.

1:06:12

We will see a. Whole

1:06:18

lot being able to get a hold of eating only

1:06:20

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Card. The.

1:07:06

Show was full of wit scandal accent.

1:07:09

He won't be able to look away.

1:07:11

What's the season premiere of Marion George?

1:07:13

Now only on stars and the stars.

1:07:16

App.