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behind our decisions. Your Hear true

1:00

stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes,

1:02

and more about why we do

1:04

the things we do Listen

1:07

to Choiceology at schwab.com/podcast,

1:09

or wherever you listen.

1:13

Hi, my name is Michelle and here's my question.

1:16

I'm white and I've often heard the

1:19

critique that white people's attempts at anti-racism

1:21

and or social justice work are largely

1:23

performative. I

1:25

definitely do not want to be performative, but

1:27

as somebody who is still learning how to

1:29

show up for anti-racism, what's the alternative? Welcome

1:35

to How To. I'm Courtney Martin. We

1:38

love when you guys send us hard questions like the one you

1:40

just heard. Ultimately, Michelle

1:42

wasn't up for coming on the show,

1:44

which we totally understand, but her question

1:46

has really resonated with me. Maybe

1:48

it's resonating with you too, given what's been

1:51

happening this year all across the country. Universities

1:54

here in Texas are now banned

1:56

from engaging in any diversity, equity,

1:58

and inclusion activities. Governor Cox vowed

2:01

to end diversity hiring practices at Utah's

2:03

public colleges and universities. The state board

2:05

of education passed a rule permanently

2:07

prohibiting diversity, equity and inclusion programs

2:10

in the Florida College system. I

2:14

don't know about you, but stories like these make

2:16

me want to take action. When

2:19

fighting for racial justice, there's a phrase that

2:21

is often floated these days. Maybe you've heard

2:23

it. It's quote, doing the work. But

2:26

sometimes you wonder, what does that actually

2:28

mean? I mean, as

2:30

I see it, doing the work is largely

2:32

about getting willing white folks to listen

2:35

to, learn from and fight alongside

2:37

people of color, which is essential.

2:39

It's something we talked a lot about after the

2:41

death of George Floyd in 2020. It

2:44

was such a sobering, important moment for

2:46

so many people. But these days, the

2:48

backlash is real. As we just heard,

2:50

racial justice work is getting harder in

2:52

some states, which is all the

2:55

more reason that we need to welcome

2:57

people into the racial justice conversation rather

2:59

than alienating them further. Now,

3:01

getting back to Michelle's voicemail, how can

3:04

white people engage in that conversation and

3:06

take action in ways that aren't performative,

3:09

that are meaningful, that actually help the

3:11

communities they want to help? Today,

3:13

we're going to talk about it with

3:16

two amazing guests. First up

3:18

is Garrett Lux. I

3:20

train folks through a group called the

3:22

Barnraisers Project, which focuses on helping white

3:24

people who don't think of themselves as

3:26

activists or organizers learn how

3:29

to organize for racial justice in majority

3:31

white communities. This

3:33

kind of work can take many different forms.

3:35

It might be folks in Minneapolis thinking about

3:37

how to help their neighbors understand why it's

3:39

important to use indigenous names for the local

3:41

lakes, or folks in Chicago showing up

3:43

at city council meetings to fight for affordable

3:45

housing, so long time residents of color don't

3:47

get pushed out of their neighborhoods. Importantly,

3:50

these white folks aren't leading these efforts,

3:52

but they're responding to what local leaders

3:54

of color are saying would be genuinely

3:57

supportive. For Garrett, that kind

3:59

of response... wasn't always second

4:01

nature. I spent a

4:04

career literally doing a lot of the things that a

4:06

lot of white do-gooders do. I thought,

4:08

well, if I want to make a difference in the

4:10

world, that difference is to be made

4:12

in other people's communities. Majority black and brown communities,

4:15

that, A, I have a right to all those

4:17

communities, be that as a teacher, be that as

4:19

a nonprofit executive, etc. that, like, I should just

4:21

go there and that's where the work is, right?

4:23

And not just that that's where the work is,

4:25

that's the work that could benefit from me in

4:28

one way or another. Garrett

4:30

fell into the familiar narrative of

4:32

the white savior, a do-gooder

4:34

who wants to change the world and instead

4:36

kind of makes a mess of things. I

4:39

was doing all these big, fancy, title,

4:41

nonprofit jobs, but I was also really

4:44

trying to showcase how much better I

4:46

was and how much more I knew

4:49

about social justice in general, but in

4:51

particular about anti-racism, than other white people.

4:54

Garrett was, as he understands it

4:56

now, more invested in proving to

4:59

himself and others that he was

5:01

an ally than actually doing the

5:03

long-term, local, community-rooted work of being

5:05

one. Perhaps if I run

5:08

away from other white people and prove that I'm

5:10

not like them, maybe I'll get to a different

5:12

place myself. I don't think that

5:14

running away really helped much, but also I don't think if

5:16

I said I cared about social change and making the world

5:18

a better place, I don't think I was being very useful.

5:22

He came to realize that running away

5:24

from other white people meant he was

5:26

fighting for racial justice with one hand

5:28

tied behind his back, as he puts

5:30

it. So that's why he started the

5:32

Burnraisers project. Last few years I've

5:34

been experimenting with what happens if I turn my

5:36

attention towards building

5:38

deeper relationships with other white people, in

5:40

particular other white people who do crave

5:43

a different world. And

5:45

what does it look like to help

5:47

each other, not save each other, but help each

5:49

other figure that out? Garrett is

5:51

getting at this really interesting truth here. Despite

5:54

all the post-George Floyd book buying and

5:56

bias training, a lot of white people,

5:58

we just aren't sure how to actually...

6:01

engage in racial justice, especially locally and

6:03

meaningfully. Garrett recently wrote

6:05

something about this that I thought was

6:07

really poignant. He wrote, if we're all

6:09

trying to outrun our whiteness, myself, the

6:11

white liberals who read the right books,

6:13

but recoil at calls to house the

6:15

homeless or defend the police, the Trump

6:17

voters who say that wokeness has gone

6:19

too far, then we're actually all in

6:21

a similar boat. And

6:23

organizing always starts from a discovery of shared

6:25

struggle. White people

6:27

in America who genuinely want to be

6:30

part of fighting racism are too often

6:32

spending energy fighting one another. As

6:34

Garrett has written, we need to start the conversation

6:36

at a more fundamental level, one that goes to

6:39

kind of the core of our own identity. Like

6:42

white people, what do we fear about

6:44

a less racist society? What do

6:46

we dream about how our own lives could

6:48

be different in beautiful, life-giving ways? What would

6:50

it take to actually build that together?

6:54

Here's what I still don't know how to do about this. Here's

6:56

what I haven't figured out. Here's the piece

6:58

of privilege and power that I'm afraid to

7:00

give up. I'm afraid to do something different

7:02

on that muscle of

7:06

more and more spaces of that with other

7:08

white people, even if we don't know the

7:10

outcome of that conversation is just

7:12

so valuable because we haven't done any of

7:14

that. And that brings

7:17

us to our second guest. Hi,

7:20

I'm Elizabeth Doerr. I am

7:22

a writer and organizer in

7:24

Portland, Oregon, and I

7:27

write about climate change, climate justice,

7:29

and anti-racism. Like

7:31

me, Elizabeth has participated in Garrett's

7:33

barn raisers training, and she's going to

7:35

share a recent story from her life that will function as

7:37

a bit of a case study. It

7:39

has to do with something a lot of us

7:41

can relate to her kids' experience at a public

7:44

school. Now, I know

7:46

this can be kind of a touchy

7:48

subject, but these problems we're talking about

7:50

are among society's biggest, and they're the

7:52

ones that most desperately need answers. So

7:56

thanks for sticking with us. We'll be right

7:58

back. This

8:10

episode is brought you by choice,

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9:30

A lot of ways. Elizabeth had a

9:32

pretty similar to do that or introductory

9:34

to get see China Peace Corps she

9:37

got a degree in international education policy.

9:39

seems a bit as a woke now

9:41

at all. My job and

9:43

higher at was actually training. College

9:46

Students I and Social

9:48

Justice Curriculum And so

9:50

even through that process,

9:52

I. I. felt like i

9:54

needed to know everything and to

9:56

be kind of have reached the

9:59

pinnacle of social justice.

10:01

And then, you know, I started

10:03

to really realize what I

10:05

was not seeing and that how much

10:07

I didn't understand and how much I

10:09

was participating in, I guess

10:12

being complicit in the systemic racism

10:14

by kind of just containing it

10:16

to my work world and not

10:18

really doing that in my personal

10:20

life and thinking about my personal life. I

10:23

also know that I don't know everything. And

10:25

I think that that's been really helpful for

10:27

me to just be a lot more open

10:30

about that as far as my anti-racism journey

10:32

goes. While Elizabeth has

10:34

done a ton of personal work, she's

10:36

still wondering how to navigate conversations about

10:38

racism with other white people. Recently,

10:41

a fellow white family, a family she

10:43

thought she shared values and a commitment

10:45

to integration with, decided to pull their

10:47

first grader from their public school and

10:49

go private. They made the decision

10:51

abruptly and my son was like, hey,

10:54

you know, so-and-so is not a

10:56

different school now. And I was like, what? And

10:59

so that's when I texted the parents

11:01

just to be like, is this true?

11:03

And my son has mentioned

11:05

that there, you know, there are a couple

11:07

of kids that can be kind of disruptive,

11:10

but it doesn't really bother him that much. And

11:12

the other parent

11:14

had mentioned that it

11:16

really bothers her son.

11:18

And I gather that the

11:20

ones that are disruptive are not white. And so

11:22

this could have been a good

11:25

opportunity to have a conversation

11:27

about ways kids have

11:29

learned how to regulate their emotions and,

11:31

you know, different backgrounds

11:33

and rather than kind of taking

11:36

them out of the environment. Garrett,

11:38

I want to workshop this with you. And I'm thinking

11:40

like the version of this that

11:43

is really unenlightened is

11:45

like, you know, and

11:47

this is, you know, me talking

11:49

straight out of like the id

11:51

of my anti-racist white identity is

11:53

like, okay, snowflakey White

11:55

kid who's like parents think he's going

11:57

to break apart if he's around any.

12:00

One his like messing up his

12:02

day gets pulled out at a

12:04

school. Parents are because of racial

12:06

bias thinking that of course these

12:08

kids of color or light disruptive

12:10

and sort of making their disruption

12:12

in the something larger than it

12:14

is kind of making it a

12:17

freakish person's because they are. Like.

12:19

Acting on race aspires like this family

12:21

is what's wrong with white parents like

12:23

that's like the asshole version right? Which

12:25

is in me because I was. They

12:28

could have just articulated it so quickly.

12:30

A Garrett, what are you carrying and

12:32

they spectrums and Izzard even less asshole

12:34

versus than with Elizabeth and I could

12:36

learn from. would you mind if I

12:38

I. I see if the sochi

12:40

cardio I'd love to ask lose but

12:43

to go more asshole summer now was

12:45

like oh yeah other than one what

12:47

what did you really wanna said. I

12:50

mean really what I wanna say was in the

12:53

back of my mind is that the seems like

12:55

a racist decisions. And.

12:58

Tell me about. What

13:01

your fears are. He.

13:03

Of. That was not

13:06

express to the upturned. You know of? hard

13:08

to, they don't know. I feel like it's less

13:10

about that one person and more. About kind

13:12

of the. Fear

13:15

that. Others

13:17

will follow because

13:19

when. One

13:22

person makes a decision you know ten of us

13:24

I'm I'm like oh they're making this decision because

13:26

you know they don't think this kit the school

13:28

is good for their can maybe than the school

13:30

is it good for my and so I feel

13:32

like it creates is kind of. Snowball.

13:34

Effect. More. And

13:37

more. White parents. Opting.

13:39

Out of even the

13:42

attempt at integration and

13:44

attempt at pluralism of

13:46

an attempt at not

13:48

just. Say. An eye on want

13:50

mine and I want to push my my kid to

13:53

the front of the eyes and I exactly. a

13:57

one stop us for a second to break down like

13:59

garrett as He's tapping

14:01

into Elizabeth's gut reaction, the stuff

14:03

underneath the niceties and all the

14:06

fancy language, to get at her

14:08

core motivations and even fears. Too

14:11

often, progressive white folks think we're holding some

14:13

kind of moral line when there's

14:15

actually something else going on. We're

14:18

policing others, trapped in some comforting

14:20

delusion of superiority, or we're refusing

14:23

to admit that we're hurt and scared. Tell

14:27

me more about your relationship with them. Like

14:29

how deep it is, how much you

14:31

know about their kid, about their hopes

14:34

and dreams and fears, about their values,

14:36

etc. Well, I've

14:38

known them since before our kids

14:41

started kindergarten. We have a mutual friend and

14:43

they're like, oh, your kids are going to

14:45

the same school. And we've sort

14:48

of developed a friendship

14:50

that borderlines acquaintances. There

14:52

have been attempts to get to know them

14:54

a little bit better. And the mom has,

14:57

I organize

14:59

our local meetings around integrated schools,

15:01

and so the mom has attended

15:03

them. So I know

15:05

that the conversations have been in

15:07

their heads. And so

15:10

values wise, I think we're pretty on

15:13

the same plane, but I'll say this,

15:15

this is kind of an indictment on

15:17

Portland in general, because on the surface,

15:19

it's liberal, but really you get deeper

15:21

and deeper. And the decisions that

15:23

people make for them, for their

15:25

community, for their neighborhoods, become

15:28

a lot more conservative. Would

15:30

it be an appropriate summary to say like, yeah,

15:33

first of all, there is a relationship here. There's

15:36

some things I know about them and about

15:38

their commitment to equity and awareness,

15:41

some things I don't know. I have

15:44

some hypotheses about potentially the mom and

15:46

dad being in different places here. But

15:51

I hear their hypotheses. There's a

15:53

lot that you don't know about this family too.

15:55

Would that be accurate? Yeah, 100%. Totally.

15:58

Wow, what a good synopsis. for something

16:00

that took me a million years to get to? No,

16:03

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

16:06

no, no, this is the fun of getting to be the listener,

16:08

right? So I wanna like talk about

16:10

a couple layers at once. The first is

16:12

the layer of the false

16:15

dichotomy that we often put ourselves in

16:17

when we think about real

16:19

talk conversations. And then

16:21

I wanna talk about what

16:23

the conversation between white people

16:26

about rethinking whiteness and our

16:28

relationship to it is really about. So

16:30

I wanna play those two different levels.

16:32

The first level, it's interesting

16:34

that, you know, you asked the question of like essentially

16:36

like how do I not be a judgmental jerk to

16:39

other white people, right, and what Courtney and I have

16:41

kind of discovered and we've discovered all together, the three

16:43

of us, right, like is like, actually,

16:45

you didn't say the thing, you were

16:47

worried with the jerkish thing. It

16:50

sounds like potentially your worry is that actually,

16:54

you know, I kind of toned it down so

16:56

that I may have still

16:58

come off as a self-righteous jerk but I

17:00

also didn't actually say the thing I believed

17:03

in, right, is that kinda

17:05

accurate? Yeah, yeah, I think that there's an

17:07

over, that's I think where I've kind of

17:09

at is like there's an over correction in

17:11

knowing that, I

17:14

could easily say something that

17:17

goes too past and then I

17:19

over correct, but either not saying

17:21

something or yeah, and not really

17:23

knowing even when the appropriate place was

17:26

because, you know, they didn't ask, but

17:28

also at the same time, it feels

17:30

like, you know, it would be worth saying

17:33

something. Totally, totally. There

17:35

is a point when you get to

17:37

be too direct or too harsh that creates

17:40

that cognitive dissonance where they just shut

17:42

down and kind of could go the

17:44

other way and like what we really

17:46

want is for them

17:48

to hear it and to think

17:50

about it and potentially, you know,

17:52

make changes or whatever, but at

17:54

least have that in their mind

17:56

for whenever the next scenario happens.

18:00

exactly the right desire here, right? And I

18:02

think the dichotomy we often get ourselves into,

18:04

and I don't think this is just unique

18:07

to white communities, but I think it's particularly

18:09

present in white communities because I think

18:11

that it speaks to an

18:14

individualistic culture. It speaks to not

18:16

fully understanding what community and relationship

18:18

actually is. The

18:20

thinking is relationships are

18:23

nice. Relationships

18:26

are ones that we don't talk about the

18:28

real stuff potentially, or that we're only affirming

18:30

each other. When in fact, if we think

18:32

about the depth of relationships that we value

18:35

the most in our lives, and when we

18:37

say the word community, the community that matters

18:39

the most, we probably are

18:41

picturing in our mind relationships that have both

18:44

loved us, but also pushed us.

18:46

And so the first thing I wanna say is that it

18:51

takes two to tango with a relationship and a

18:53

conversation. So for me, the first step is always

18:55

an invitation. And I wanna

18:57

make sure that the invitation is as

18:59

open and honest as possible. So I

19:03

give the person a choice to say, like

19:05

let's go find, first of all, I

19:07

want it to be not reactive, not like just from

19:09

the text or from the moments of that. I'm like,

19:12

let's find a time and place together to talk about

19:14

this, that they can choose to take you up

19:16

on or not choose to take you up on. And

19:18

I don't want them saying yes, and thus they know

19:21

the following. The first is that

19:24

I have an opinion on this matter, and

19:26

I actually have a strong opinion on this

19:28

matter. And in this

19:30

case, that I am

19:32

really, really scared about the

19:35

decisions that a lot of white parents in

19:37

Portland are making to opt out of spaces

19:39

that they share with black and brown kids.

19:42

And I am really, really scared, not just for

19:44

the societal implications of that, but I also believe

19:47

that there's racism behind this choice. So

19:49

I want them to know that that opinion is

19:51

on the table. A, but B,

19:53

there's probably a lot I don't know

19:55

about them, their story, what they're struggling

19:57

with, why this is a hard decision.

20:00

and I want to have a conversation where

20:02

both of those things are allowed to be

20:04

there. Not to get to a middle

20:06

ground where I say, okay, this is the 50% of

20:08

racism you're allowed to do, but where

20:11

this person who knows that I have a

20:13

very strong opinion still has time

20:15

for them, still has time to stick with

20:17

them. Even if at the

20:19

end of the first conversation, we're still in disagreement.

20:21

If at the end of the second conversation, we're

20:23

still in disagreement, that what keeps coming through is

20:25

like, yes, I'm firm enough to place, but I

20:28

also recognize the things you're

20:31

wrestling with feel different to you, feel hard for

20:33

you, etc. So,

20:37

you're approaching the conversation by planning a time

20:40

where both people can show up ready to

20:42

talk, laying out what you're

20:44

thinking and feeling with plain spoken courage,

20:46

but also being clear that you're more

20:49

invested in growing together than legislating who

20:51

is right. One

20:54

of the things that make us feel ill-equipped is

20:56

white people to have conversations about white supremacy or

20:58

racism is that we

21:01

think about these conversations as just conversations about,

21:03

hey, if they only have the knowledge or

21:05

if they only have the ideology or only

21:07

have the belief system. As

21:09

you just mentioned, there's probably

21:11

tons of bookshelves across the city

21:13

of Portland with all the right

21:16

anti-racist books on them, but tons

21:18

of decisions that people are still

21:20

making about their home, about their

21:23

kids, about their jobs, etc., that

21:25

reinforce systems of domination. So,

21:28

it's not about the beliefs, it's not about

21:30

the ideology. It is about that any

21:33

system of domination that you get to

21:35

be on top of, white supremacy for

21:37

white people, patriarchy for men, capitalism for

21:40

people who are income secure, etc., that's

21:43

actually a change process. That's

21:46

not just a belief process, that's

21:48

about giving something up, that's

21:51

about stepping into the

21:53

unknown, that's about trying something new.

21:56

We should be called to do that, we

21:58

should not be babied. said, oh, that's hard so we

22:01

don't have to do that or we can opt out. We

22:03

should be welcomed in that conversation. But

22:05

we should also recognize that that conversation,

22:08

if it's going to be useful, is not just

22:10

about here's what I believe, here's what you believe.

22:12

That conversation if it's going to be useful is

22:14

going to be about I really want to know

22:16

why this is a hard decision for you. Because

22:18

I hope you don't make it. I hope you

22:20

stick with this class. But I want to know

22:22

why that change feels hard for you, where that

22:24

comes from for you, where that comes from for

22:26

your partner. You're never just talking about the

22:29

situation itself and so there's

22:32

just so much to get into. I really

22:35

want to ask those questions about what

22:37

about this feels so tricky for them

22:39

because that's fascinating to me. And I

22:41

probably have a similar story myself about

22:43

a hypocrisy I'm currently struggling with too

22:45

that maybe enters some part of the

22:47

conversation. Whether

22:54

it's the proverbial racist uncle at the

22:56

Thanksgiving table or the progressive neighbor you

22:59

thought you shared protests and values with,

23:01

you can't go into a conversation with

23:03

the sole intention of changing their minds.

23:06

It will put them on the defensive and

23:08

frankly it's totally unrealistic. Instead

23:10

lean into the relationship.

23:13

Seek to understand their

23:15

fears. Okay we're going to

23:17

take a quick break and when we come

23:19

back we're going to keep digging into what's

23:22

underneath that all too common pitfall of white

23:24

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26:12

Back with a lizard door who once

26:14

advice on how to talk to a

26:16

sell a white family who pulled their

26:18

kid from an integrated public school and

26:20

Karabakh sounder as of Ionizers project and

26:22

author as the New Birth the right

26:24

kind of like. I should

26:26

out here for context. I have also

26:28

written about this topic a publisher by

26:31

the couple years ago Poll Learning and

26:33

Public the takes readers you my own

26:35

family's journey of deciding to enrol our

26:37

daughters and a black majority title One

26:39

Public School and show up joyfully and

26:41

humbly. I think part

26:43

of why. It's. Hard

26:45

to be curious in a moment like

26:47

that and I wonder how you relate

26:49

to this? Elizabeth is. In.

26:51

Order to make countercultural decisions like sending your

26:54

kid to the school that other people think

26:56

is a little scary and you know you're

26:58

a little bit. Radical. For

27:00

do a mad at, are you sure that's a

27:02

safe choice for your kid? Like an order to

27:04

do that? I. Think you often

27:06

have to sort of tell yourself a

27:09

very clear story about why it is

27:11

okay or your kid is safe. Way.

27:14

You know it's just a very like Black

27:16

and White by Mary story that you tell

27:18

yourself so that you can make that what

27:20

is a hard decision socially right We know

27:22

we could have a whole thing about. Our

27:24

kids are not as actually at much risk.

27:27

that like socially it as a risk to

27:29

do something that your quote unquote tribe isn't

27:31

doing. I itself we tell us as really

27:33

sensory. Then when someone. Like.

27:35

This family says actually this isn't

27:37

safe or this isn't okay I

27:40

think. You. Are genuinely worried about

27:42

the snowball effect which is very real and

27:44

we see a lot of the you. Families.

27:47

Set. That. Do sort of catch this

27:49

contagious disease of thinking like, oh, the school

27:51

actually isn't okay and we're all gonna leave

27:53

But also, is there something underneath and I

27:55

guess I'm asking is because I'm telling you

27:57

this is true for me. That

28:00

it's hard to open up to some

28:02

of the challenges. And like, in

28:04

order to survive the experience, I need to

28:07

tell myself everything's a hundred percent sign. I

28:09

don't It's hard to lead an like. Oh

28:12

have I not been paying attention to

28:14

my kid and maybe like they are

28:16

twenty five percent not okay and if

28:18

I actually listen to disperse and I'm

28:20

and have to take in the ways

28:22

in which the classroom is like ceiling.

28:24

Maybe. A little bit unsafe or some of

28:26

the kids and what does that mean about my

28:29

own kids and race? You. Guys like

28:31

it will literally it forces you to

28:33

tell a more nuanced story that you

28:35

might not really so control telling. That

28:37

is something that we talked about is that leg.

28:40

Do I do? I owe money. Will be

28:42

thinking about what might be wrong yob. You.

28:45

Know I've had exact same

28:47

experience of friends leaving. A.

28:49

You know, my kids' school and trying

28:51

to figure out how to have these

28:53

conversations. I love Garrett's question about fear.

28:56

Because. It reminded

28:58

me of the best per se so

29:00

I've had with a friend who pulled

29:03

her kid from our school. was very

29:05

vulnerable. We. Both. Like.

29:07

We really made time for it and we

29:09

knew it was gonna be hard and we

29:12

knew we were gonna have to bump up

29:14

against the since unsafely disagreed about that. one

29:16

of the things that came up for me

29:18

that I was like embarrassed about but new

29:20

operates under some of these conversations with as

29:22

I was afraid she was gonna go to

29:24

other. People. In our

29:26

we know larger community and talk

29:28

about that the school was in

29:30

a safe place and that I

29:32

felt really protective of our school

29:34

and really defensive about that snowball

29:36

effect and I was able to

29:38

say to her like i know

29:40

you're making a choice. Is

29:42

there anything from you need for me

29:44

around this and what I would love

29:46

for me as you can give it

29:48

to me is that you talk about

29:50

the beautiful aspects of the school that

29:52

you've last and like keep holding those

29:54

up for people because that would. It.

29:57

It would feel really good to meet us in the level

29:59

of like. Love this community and I

30:01

want people to know it's beautiful and

30:03

that political aspects as that snowball effect

30:05

would be lessened if more people who

30:08

leave school didn't have a black and

30:10

my way of it. So it was

30:12

cool because we are both able to

30:14

like, say what we need is and

30:16

maintain our relationship to the player relationships

30:18

Garrett said just wondering if that's helpful

30:20

to you Hear that? Yeah, I I

30:22

love that's an issue a guy I'm

30:25

actually uses recalling a conversation That I

30:27

mean this is like years ago by

30:29

ah. One of my.

30:32

My son classmates from preschool had

30:34

they had lasts lit sometime during the

30:36

pandemic and they were in soccer

30:38

together and and the kids grandparent was

30:40

legs started to talk shit about the

30:43

preschool. I was like stuff super

30:45

league defensive because it was like what

30:47

I'm choosing to keep my kid

30:49

there. That

30:53

moment for Elizabeth created a bit of

30:55

a binary where she felt like she

30:57

was a good white person for sinking

30:59

at the school as planned and her

31:01

friends were the bad way people for

31:03

deserting. Now, it's obviously more complex than

31:06

that, but where is the place to

31:08

draw a bright moral line? There

31:12

are Seuss about the world that

31:14

are recently really important to align

31:16

ourselves to isn't as a moral

31:19

North Stars Road and I since

31:21

the difference if I can go

31:23

back a little bit race isn't

31:26

necessarily about the stridency of like

31:28

some of our moral lines. I

31:31

think that's potentially really really great.

31:33

It is about how were relating

31:35

to the people that we are

31:38

trying to both influence and potentially

31:40

be open to be influenced. By.

31:43

I. Love what you're saying courtney

31:45

earlier about. like these conversations the

31:47

you have and how they have

31:50

been. Both. About the other

31:52

person spears and your fears

31:54

sprayed and when I was

31:56

listen to Elizabeth is seats

31:58

that like. The lines. You're

32:01

actually. Hoping to watch. Here

32:03

is not a line about level

32:05

of stridency is not a line

32:08

about like how firmly you believe

32:10

something or even topless ciphers for

32:12

you name that. It's about whether

32:15

the relationships you're having with other

32:17

white families in your school in

32:19

Portland and in Oregon If your

32:22

goal in that those relationships is

32:24

to move the white savior lands

32:26

the folks like us may have

32:29

previously applied overly sort are really

32:31

shook. Him use of color over to white

32:33

people into like it's my job to say

32:36

them for the say sort of. White

32:40

Supremacy mistakes to your try to welcome

32:42

more and more people into a mess

32:44

with you? Yeah right, we like to.

32:47

You at least stay in that conversation

32:49

with me and series with coming up

32:51

for me as I'm in that conversation.

32:53

Here's what I do feel really farm

32:56

with. Here's what I don't feel really

32:58

for months. How about for you? And

33:00

can we keep on hold? Each other

33:02

as we walked forward. And

33:04

you're also make anything. There's two

33:06

parts of what's happening in the

33:08

relationship. One is. What? Is

33:10

the choice that a white person

33:13

as making that you see as

33:15

racist as in assists Elizabeth Army

33:17

or Garrett Tuck in assailants? What?

33:20

Is the meaning. That.

33:22

That person and you are

33:25

making as the choice. So.

33:27

It's like you can. A

33:29

person can make a choice that you wish

33:32

they didn't feel like they had to make

33:34

night and you could say like as as

33:36

serenity around that at psyched I wish it

33:38

until you had to make this face but

33:40

I honor that you do feel the same.

33:42

As second is that meaning the person makes

33:45

have that choice and what meaning you make

33:47

of that choice And that's where it feels

33:49

like what you're saying that it is so

33:52

important about the messy ness an ongoing release.

33:54

Last act of it is like maybe they

33:56

make a choice that actually does make. a

33:58

school has less resources. Then you

34:00

know. Feel. Little more chaotic

34:03

as their people coming in and out and

34:05

that's like hard on the school but maybe

34:07

the meaning they make about the to a

34:09

say made to feed some other. Like.

34:12

Aspects of making the city more are

34:14

just or that means you are dressed

34:16

in the long run because they don't

34:18

tell a particular story about why they

34:20

had to leave the school. That like

34:22

compounds racism. Down. Because

34:25

we're gonna be. Passing

34:27

up all the time and we as

34:29

up all the time because word new

34:31

baby that this and I. You know

34:34

I into I would like. I.

34:36

Took that those failures so hard early

34:38

on. but I think what has changed

34:41

in a thing as you kind of

34:43

have more practice with it like building

34:45

that muscle is that. It. Doesn't

34:47

deeply hurt me anymore. or you know.

34:49

I think that it's like the unit

34:51

of white woman's peers of kind of

34:54

where that comes from that is really

34:56

hard to hear something when you're failing.

34:58

But then lengths I started to be

35:00

leg. It's not. Me personally

35:02

it is. I mean I'm doing this but

35:04

it's because I've been conditioned as a per

35:06

of the the systemic racism and so for

35:09

me I've been able to like detach myself

35:11

like me personally as a human being with

35:13

the values that I have from the societal

35:15

part of it and be like I am

35:18

doing this because a condition to do it.

35:20

But now I recognize that I can kind

35:22

of course correct and still gonna fail every

35:24

once in awhile. but I can do it

35:27

differently this time and so it's kind of

35:29

like I'm able to legs take it in

35:31

and. Then move on. But like not everybody

35:33

is at that place with that so I

35:35

think that that's where it's having these conversations.

35:39

Were. Surrounded thought i'm enough. Where it

35:42

starts is actually talking about race

35:44

in it and a matter of

35:46

fact way. says. Her

35:48

Him. But also

35:50

nl long term relational and benzema. yeah right

35:52

that's it. I generally a taking away from

35:54

this conversation as like cause i can get

35:57

caught up like you'll as as and thing

35:59

he like. Why didn't say the? Real.

36:02

Truth in that particular interaction. And

36:04

and I'm like. Courtney. If

36:06

this is gonna be in effect is

36:08

relationship. I mean if it's gonna

36:10

be a loving relationship, it was going to

36:12

be an effective like portal for social change.

36:15

It's gonna be a long haul nearly. She'll

36:17

have another up at home with the about

36:19

him our conversations yeah and next time you'll

36:21

actually met right? And that's it. Get.

36:24

You know, I'm not gonna let you

36:26

get away without telling us about the

36:28

religion of Being Rights versus the religion

36:30

of being in Love. Say

36:32

you this. Piece. Of wisdom

36:34

given to me by my childhood pastor that

36:36

I thought I was listening to and learning

36:39

from back in the but the I actually

36:41

was doing the opposite offer much my life

36:43

because that's what happens with wisdom. We find

36:46

ways to just find not listen to it

36:48

is used to religion and it seemed to

36:50

be from my past or but he didn't

36:52

mean it just like religion like the theological

36:55

sons who met religious belief system that

36:57

there are two religions in the world the

36:59

Religion of being right and the Religion of

37:01

Being in love And the only rule. Is

37:04

you can't be a member of both

37:06

at the same time? And

37:09

it's eyestone long time caring about the

37:11

religion of be right and what you

37:13

are just talked about just right there.

37:15

I like it like oh my god

37:17

I've messed up of I have not

37:19

like fully solved racism with as other

37:21

white person in the single conversation right?

37:24

that is the realism Be right. The.

37:26

Problem is not the you described as

37:28

you please restrained but your belief is

37:30

the ideas of the only value this

37:32

other person house and me is for

37:35

me to correct them to solve, for

37:37

them to save them, etc. The

37:40

religion of the love has the

37:42

same strength of bullies, the same

37:45

straight to the same you moral

37:47

North Star. But the differences is

37:49

that you. Are. Guided instead

37:52

of his by your ability

37:54

to fix solve when his

37:57

and dominate conversations and relationships,

37:59

they. You are guided by. A.

38:02

Sense of the real profound gifted getting

38:04

to be in relationship and that is

38:06

both relationship with the world, relationship with

38:08

communities. But once you know and don't

38:10

relationship was once you have a zit.

38:12

You are place in inequitable systems in

38:14

relation to but also in these direct

38:16

relationships and the Trek I think to

38:18

not falling in the pattern of just

38:20

taking your white savior of them and

38:22

moving it from i'm trying to Save

38:24

means a collar to I'm trying to

38:26

Save on our way people is. He

38:28

still has his stride conversations, You still

38:30

his conversations which is very. Clear where

38:32

you're coming from and where your

38:34

values are but yourself for them

38:37

is not. Oh my god I

38:39

need to say it's is another

38:41

way person from Iran believe you're

38:43

hope for them is I want

38:45

to build this relationship stronger and

38:47

stronger because I'm still figuring it

38:49

out to and I would want

38:51

a hope for this person Be

38:54

someone by my side who is

38:56

pushing themselves but who's also pushing

38:58

me and who can be honest

39:00

with me about we're They're. Still

39:02

messing up but who I can he

39:04

be equally honest and were. Hopefully we

39:07

can get this relationship to a point

39:09

where we can be useful to each

39:11

other and that way and we'd be

39:13

welcoming more and more people. And and

39:16

that distinction for me really makes all

39:18

the difference. He. Loves. Carrots,

39:30

That is cause the right kind of light and

39:33

if you wanna take things further than where

39:35

we got today, you can learn to organize to

39:37

the bernie's there's protect will put a link

39:39

and the Senate's. Do. You

39:41

have a mere you need health looking

39:43

into send us an hour and how

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to at site.com or Lena suffice out

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and I'll help us help more people.

40:02

How to is produce favors May Belson

40:04

with Kevin Vendors So Meyer a senior

40:06

editor and there soon as executive producer

40:09

merits Jacob his senior technical director and

40:11

composed or theme music. Charles Do Hague

40:13

created the show. Carvel Wallace is my

40:15

co. Time for the Merton. Thanks

40:18

for listening!