0:01

This. Is hear me out. I'm Celeste Headley. This

0:04

weekend, Stoners will mark an annual holiday

0:06

that is really more of a meme

0:08

than a holiday the origins of for

0:10

Twenty or Perky, but it likely came

0:12

into being back in Nineteen Seventy One

0:14

when a group of high school students

0:16

in California of course, it was California

0:18

said a regular afternoon appointment to meet

0:20

up after school and smoke the Grateful

0:22

Dead became involved. It's a long story

0:24

and teenage slang became legend. Marijuana is,

0:26

of course, a different beast in Twenty

0:29

Twenty Four that it was in the

0:31

early seventies in terms of who uses

0:33

it. Legality even in terms

0:35

of the makeup of the plant

0:37

itself, activists, Harold and the era

0:39

of progress and an era of

0:41

increasing ubiquity for what is still

0:43

technically a schedule one drug. But

0:46

through the smoke screen of weeds,

0:48

cultural impact, and demonstrated promise as

0:50

a therapeutic drug, there are public

0:52

health professionals who aren't sure we're

0:54

doing this right. We are

0:56

not taking the industry seriously enough

0:59

and then we are not taking

1:01

the drug seriously enough. And our

1:03

eyebrows using it in reckless wage

1:06

without have no regard to how

1:08

it can be harmful. Keep

1:10

humphries of stand for joints here. Be out in just

1:12

a moment. Stay with us. Welcome.

1:17

Back to hear me out. I'm

1:19

Celeste Headley. Legal marijuana is popular

1:22

as of late. Twenty Twenty Three.

1:24

Seventy percent of Americans think we

1:26

should be legal at a big

1:28

change from past years. In Nineteen

1:31

Sixty Nine, for example, eighty two

1:33

percent of us thought it should

1:35

be illegal. We rarely see that

1:37

kind of consensus on anything in

1:40

this country. Plus, it's clear that

1:42

decriminalizing and legalizing marijuana is associated

1:44

with significant criminal justice reform. But

1:46

as we'd advocates. Celebrate! Slow but

1:49

definite progress toward making pot

1:51

legal nationwide. Some public health

1:53

experts are sounding the alarm.

1:55

They say the way of

1:57

this is happening. Could. Cause

1:59

damage to. Friday and Lies. Keith

2:01

Humphreys is a professor of Psychiatry

2:03

and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford University.

2:05

Enjoying to sell Hi Keith. Hi

2:08

nice to talk with you. You to.

2:10

For those who don't know, you tell us what you do.

2:12

Or I'm a professor of Psychiatry

2:15

at Stanford University where I study

2:17

addiction of all different sorts and

2:19

recovery from addiction. Have also done

2:21

some work with treatment and prevention.

2:23

And policy. I worked for example,

2:25

for present Obama in the White

2:27

House's Senior Drug Policy Advisor. Okay,

2:31

so let's start with just

2:33

a clear. Ah, Articulation

2:35

of what's your view is that

2:38

give us the elevator pitch. Of

2:40

of. What you think. Is

2:43

wrong with legalizing marijuana? Yeah

2:45

we're to be clear I've never always

2:48

said be terrible idea for somebody in

2:50

a and a cell for using marijuana

2:52

so as had nothing about that I

2:55

won't say is going on his we

2:57

are not taking the industry seriously enough

2:59

as a result or regulating. Are.

3:02

Far too weekly. And then

3:04

we are not taking the drug

3:07

seriously enough. And are

3:09

thus. using. It in

3:11

reckless ways without enough regard to

3:13

how it can be harmful. Was.

3:16

A toothache? Spam. You're. Not saying

3:18

you think a weed should be illegal.

3:21

But. No, no not all I

3:23

mean the The Commission in California

3:25

that gave advice to the state

3:27

on legalization herb steering committee was

3:29

myself the head of the A

3:31

sale You and Gavin Newsom though

3:34

ten a governor and we provided

3:36

you know what? My view as

3:38

I. Democracy. Matters people won't

3:40

be able to use this and so

3:42

I felt the role was to explain

3:44

how do you have you had this

3:46

happen in such a way that there's

3:49

maximal benefit and mammal harm. And

3:51

I think we haven't haven't done that. But there you

3:53

know if the I don't think there's anything wrong with

3:55

it. I mean that's what people want to do. Is

3:59

one of the. The things that

4:01

you talk about and have written

4:03

about is the fact that we

4:05

shouldn't be stigmatized reviews which isn't

4:08

the same as you know legalization

4:10

but it it sounds like you're

4:12

saying that there should be a

4:15

stigma associated with using. Weed.

4:17

Is. That correct We definitely rec right

4:19

now and to the norm to view

4:22

is you know. We'd.

4:24

Is. It. Not only is

4:26

it not harmful in any way, but

4:29

that it has it. It. Cures,

4:32

Everything I mean, you know it. It

4:34

helps with sleep in of the I,

4:36

the helps with depression you should smoker

4:38

during pregnancy and all these kinds of

4:40

things. And that is a ridiculously rosie

4:42

appraisal of what this drug is, especially

4:45

in this the current drug and know

4:47

she'd say i don't know what age

4:49

the be on. Your. Listeners are

4:51

but some some people will think of.

4:53

I remember cannabis in college. he had

4:56

to smoke and for for hours to

4:58

get inside we high. That's way in

5:00

the past so the current drug didn't

5:02

average potency of flowers about twenty twenty

5:04

five percent. The other products dabs and

5:06

things go up sixty seventy eighty percent.

5:09

It's really potent and it has risk

5:11

to it. So. To the

5:13

extent, saying you know that is not harmison,

5:15

in fact, can hurt you, is stigmatizing the

5:17

Madison APsley reasonable thing to. Likewise,

5:20

On the hillside. Manny promises made. This is

5:22

going to reverse the opioid epidemic once we

5:24

start using this more. I mean, how did

5:26

that turn out to me weep video. The

5:28

opiate epics gotten worse side by side or

5:30

this is something that you should use in

5:33

preference to treatments with better evidence of effectiveness.

5:35

On those things are untrue and I think

5:37

we need to say there and true and

5:39

to the extent you could say that's a

5:41

disapproving message. Okay men in that sense, I'm

5:43

I'm com to being disapproving. Kiss.

5:46

On the other hand, I'm there. There's

5:49

the scientific opinion on this is not.

5:51

In. Consensus In out we had a

5:54

study of of teams that was done

5:56

between Ninety Ninety Three and a Twenty

5:58

seventeen is some east. the of

6:00

marijuana declined by nearly ten

6:03

percent when a recreational use

6:05

of weed was. Made.

6:07

Legal Arm and also. There

6:10

have been. At. It would

6:12

I don't need so you, but

6:14

our audiences might know not know

6:16

that. There were two large studies

6:18

that showed about a twenty five

6:20

percent decrease in deaths from opiate

6:22

overdose correlated not caused, but correlated

6:24

with or legalization of medical cannabis.

6:27

Okay, so two things are First, your first

6:29

claim is. Ah, But the

6:31

evidence I'm just legalization effect t news I

6:33

didn't say anything about that might where I

6:35

would say is what is the impact of

6:37

using went in your teen years cannabis vs

6:40

not and there is. No. Scientific

6:42

dispute about kids who use a lot

6:44

of cannabis for says kids who denied

6:46

that you know answer to their health

6:48

and their success in school. and so

6:50

on. That opioid study which was very

6:52

famous done around two thousand and ten

6:54

in the and we'd maps put it

6:56

on billboards all over the country. This

6:59

will reduce the opiate overdose or yeah

7:01

well. Subsequent study led by my colleague

7:03

Chelsea Chauffeur with using the same methods

7:05

but seven years more data show that

7:07

that pattern actually reversed. Over. Time

7:09

at the industry never acknowledged this but nonetheless

7:11

that bad. That's not what op and also

7:14

we just gotta say let's look at look

7:16

at our society. Canvas.

7:18

Use has gone up dramatically. In

7:21

the last twenty years. Opioid overdoses

7:23

have gone up dramatically in

7:25

West Twenty years is. More.

7:27

And more canvas use is going to stop the

7:29

opioid crisis. Gotta wonder how many decades we have

7:31

to wait for that happened. Like we can say

7:33

pretty constantly that that is not true. Although

7:37

I mean you're in a psychological

7:39

feel that one of the problems

7:41

isn't necessarily to reduce. it's the

7:43

reasons why people pick. Up Drugs right?

7:45

Like the. Declining. I'm

7:47

life expectancy In the United States.

7:49

A doctor's has said that it's

7:51

it. With the biggest causes

7:54

despair. Arm. And that can

7:56

also drives drug use as well as at.

7:59

most a

8:02

questionably effective way of coping with

8:04

anxiety and stress and depression? Well,

8:07

I'm certainly in favor of good mental health for sure. And

8:10

you're absolutely right that bad

8:13

mental health, stress, depression, loneliness

8:15

can all spur the use

8:17

of substances. And

8:20

at the same time, we don't use substances

8:22

that aren't available, and we use the substances

8:24

that are most available more. So

8:26

there was a heck of a lot of stress and depression

8:28

in 2008 during the

8:30

financial crisis. There were no fentanyl deaths. Why

8:33

not? Because fentanyl wasn't out there.

8:35

That's why. I mean, so

8:37

the sadness alone can't produce these

8:39

things without the availability of the

8:41

drugs. And that's

8:44

why, although sadness may make drug

8:46

use worse, it doesn't mean we should say, well, I

8:48

guess we shouldn't do anything to limit people's exposure to

8:50

drugs since it's all driven by mental health. Well, that

8:53

doesn't make a lot of sense. On

8:55

the other hand, fentanyl is not the same as

8:58

weed. I mean, weed has been available in

9:00

many... No, I'm just saying that to illustrate the

9:02

point. I could have picked anything, yeah. Yeah, I

9:04

totally... Like, automatic weapons is another

9:06

thing. People are angry when they commit

9:08

mass shootings. Absolutely true.

9:10

On the other hand, if they didn't have

9:13

easy access to automatic weapons, anger wouldn't translate

9:15

into mass shootings as easily.

9:18

I mean, it's a fair point. On

9:20

the other hand, it could

9:23

very well be that the

9:26

legalization of marijuana is not being done

9:28

in the best way. On

9:30

the other hand, the weed that was available

9:33

on the streets that

9:36

was not in any way, shape or

9:39

form regulated or taxed, pharmacologists

9:41

found traces of E. coli

9:43

bacteria in it. Aspergillus

9:45

fungus. They found that a lot of it

9:48

that was sold on the streets had dangerous

9:50

levels of fecal material. So,

9:53

I mean, isn't that progress that at

9:55

least we can regulate

9:58

for that? Except we're

10:00

not regulating at all. I mean, you know,

10:03

hardly any state or

10:06

city has any cap on

10:08

the potency of the products. Every

10:11

audit that has been done of labeling

10:14

has shown that labeling is terrible

10:16

and frequently inaccurate. So,

10:19

yeah, theoretically, I agree, you

10:21

know, a nice, tightly regulated industry like, say,

10:23

we have with milk, you know,

10:25

would be much better than a

10:28

wild west, but we have a wild west.

10:30

So, you know, I mean, I'm all in favor of, I guess

10:33

it's easy to be in favor of a world we don't have

10:35

and say, but the world we do have, when's

10:38

the last time you saw any consequence

10:40

for the industry for mislabeling something or

10:42

mispromoting something? It just hasn't really happened.

10:45

And by the way, we also

10:47

still have a massive, massive, illicit

10:49

market in cannabis, which is another

10:51

promise of legalization that hasn't been

10:53

realized and I think should be

10:55

considered a policy failure. We're

10:59

about to take a break, but, you know, I

11:01

have to say I live in North Bethesda, Maryland.

11:03

So there's a lot of people around me that

11:05

work for the NIH. And

11:08

one of the things they could not stop talking about

11:10

was that now that weed is

11:12

legal in Maryland, it's

11:14

no longer illegal to study cannabidiol,

11:16

for example. Cannabidiol is not

11:19

associated with getting a high. It's not,

11:21

as far as we know, addictive,

11:24

but it has lots of possibly

11:26

really beneficial properties, anti-psychotic properties, anti-seizure.

11:29

And scientists have been wanting to study it for a long

11:31

time. Legalization makes that possible. Oh,

11:34

now, cannabidiol has been studied for many,

11:36

many years. You can still study illegal

11:38

drugs. I have plenty of colleagues who

11:40

do it. We have colleagues who are studying cocaine,

11:44

MDMA, hallucinogens. So

11:48

that doesn't necessarily follow that you have

11:50

to have a licit market of people

11:52

selling something for scientists to study it.

11:55

You do need the right kind of

11:57

policy set up, and we

11:59

could certainly, you know. some we do better on that

12:01

on lots of drugs. But I

12:03

don't, it doesn't follow because

12:05

we needed to study CBD, there have to be

12:07

10,000 illegal pot shops

12:09

in New York City. This is not so. Okay,

12:13

we're going to take a break and we'll come

12:15

back to this discussion about whether or not we

12:17

are legalizing marijuana the right way. This is Hear

12:19

Me Out. I'm Celeste Headley and we will return.

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human identity. I'm Sadia Khan

12:43

and as a rights activist, social entrepreneur,

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wherever you get your podcasts. And

13:03

we're back. I'm Celeste Headley. This is Hear

13:05

Me Out, a podcast from Slate and today we're talking about

13:08

legal weed, not whether

13:10

it should be legal, but whether we're

13:12

doing it all wrong. And

13:15

my guest is Keith Humphries, a professor of

13:17

psychiatry at Stanford and also was a

13:19

drug policy advisor for both President Bush,

13:21

the second President Bush and Barack Obama.

13:24

So let's go back to this

13:26

idea of the

13:29

right way to legalize weed.

13:32

It seems to me that it's always going to go

13:34

in steps, right? Anytime

13:37

you do something suddenly, whether

13:39

it's a ban or a

13:42

lift of a ban, say prohibition, when

13:46

it's done all

13:48

at once, it seems to

13:50

always cause problems. And

13:54

so maybe that's the real issue here, that

13:56

instead it should have been incremental?

14:00

I mean, you're absolutely right. We

14:02

are very herky-jerky in our policy in the

14:04

United States on a million different things. It

14:06

seems like we treat what ought to be

14:08

thought of as a series of dials, as

14:10

a series of switches, like we have

14:12

to do this or we have to do the drive. We

14:15

have to have a war on drugs or we have to

14:17

do absolutely nothing about drugs at all and sell them on

14:19

every street corner when there's a lot of space in

14:22

between. The challenge is that

14:24

when you do what we've done with cannabis,

14:27

where we've had an

14:29

industry created that has

14:31

got a lot of money, once that happens,

14:33

it's very hard to change the policy further

14:35

because of how our political system works. Just

14:37

so it'd be very tough to say restrict alcohol

14:40

because you would have an industry right there to

14:42

stop you. The cannabis industry

14:44

could probably stop much of the adjustments

14:46

that you might like to make. That

14:50

would have been a case for doing this differently

14:52

from the first, but I think it's hard to

14:55

undo it for those states that

14:57

already have a lobbying army set

14:59

to thwart any policy provision. I

15:02

mean, I totally understand

15:05

that a pharmacological decision should

15:08

be made carefully. It should be made

15:10

slowly and deliberately. On the other hand,

15:13

being fully aware, as you are, of

15:16

the racial disparities in how weed was

15:19

criminalized, the fact that African

15:22

Americans are nearly four times likely to

15:24

be arrested for marijuana,

15:28

even though they consume it at

15:30

about the same rate as whites,

15:33

that to me

15:36

argues for a

15:38

sudden legalization. That

15:41

would say, why would we wait

15:43

to legalize this while people, especially

15:46

BIPOC people, are sitting in prison for

15:48

it? Well, my understanding is

15:51

that we're not arguing about legalization. We're arguing about

15:53

how to do it. You

15:55

could have said like

15:57

what Beck did or Uruguay did.

16:00

The. Bomb. We're going to have

16:02

States doors were we sell this product

16:04

and like we used to have states

16:06

doors for alcohol into immediately available anybody?

16:09

And buy it if they want to. Were.

16:12

In A wherever they went to

16:14

however we won't have promotions, we

16:16

won't have a advertising we will

16:18

do I d checks. And

16:20

they'll be government play selling it. And by

16:22

the way, The government is a

16:25

far more diverse workforce than the

16:27

private sector. The Workforce: I am

16:29

one of the stories of the

16:31

canvas industry. Is. That they

16:33

have talked about racial justice up and

16:35

down. Don't worry when it's legalized. Were

16:38

so upset about the stuff. Look who

16:40

runs the industry? It's white as the

16:42

driven snow ambien so that they have

16:45

zero commitment to diversity at the top.

16:48

And. And interest would that give women

16:50

really strong case for having this done

16:52

with with states doors? So.

16:55

If you know. Although

16:58

Canada is a capitalist country, that

17:00

it has a lot more. Embrace

17:02

of it's socialist. Side the snake the

17:04

United States and then I think it would be very

17:07

difficult. Because

17:09

the the chance of making

17:11

money from cannabis is so

17:13

tempting, I think it would

17:15

be hard to get people

17:18

to allow the government. To

17:21

handle it sale such an

17:23

not run it I mean

17:25

America is. That. Not all

17:27

in on capitalism right now. I you're

17:29

getting to the nub of it and

17:31

this is I think where we agree

17:33

what has happened is we have prioritized

17:36

money. Profit. Over

17:38

Public Health. And

17:40

where there's many other areas where

17:42

miracles actually. Agree that we

17:44

should prioritize public health over. You know we if

17:47

we if we were allowed to sell cigarettes dude

17:49

to I mean a little kids you can make

17:51

a lot of money. But we've all agreed now

17:53

at doesn't seem right. I mean there's more important

17:55

things and making money. We'd

17:57

put restrictions on him. So

18:00

alcoholic. Exact same thing. I'm

18:03

so yeah we can make that decision.

18:05

And the the California Commission that I

18:07

was on was Gavin Newsom that was

18:09

our recommendation is don't don't think about

18:11

this. Families had a we maximize profit.

18:14

Because. With drugs were you maximize profit

18:16

is dead. It as much as Veil billie

18:18

promote his bunch possible when you try to

18:20

addict as many people's basket because we're the

18:22

heaviest consumers whereas in public Lt when structure

18:25

things in a way to try to reduce

18:27

other's arms still have a industry or any

18:29

arrested for using or selling on. But you

18:31

don't get that the public health damage that

18:34

you get when you just say hey. You

18:37

over the bucks? So

18:39

I mean I think we do agree on this

18:41

insect. Is it the more that we talk? I

18:43

am really silly. Agree it on a lot more

18:45

than I would have expected. I hope this doesn't

18:47

ruin your chef. The

18:50

guests if. It happens not often, but

18:52

it happens that I end up

18:54

with a guest agreeing more that

18:56

I disagree on. but I you

18:59

know, I'm a journalist. I am

19:01

nothing if not cynical about our

19:03

daughter mental processes and the way

19:05

that laws are made and. You

19:08

know if we're talking again like you say,

19:10

If we're talking about what I wish the

19:13

world were and what it is, I don't

19:15

know if it's possible. For. For

19:17

weed to have been legalized the way. You.

19:20

Want to the to the way that

19:23

would protect human well being, mental health,

19:25

and physical health. The. If we,

19:27

if we gave in to Susan know intersecting about

19:29

racial justice, we would never have had black Lives

19:31

matter as a movement. We would never pushed back

19:33

or to say auto races Country No one can

19:35

do anything about it. We never had a civil

19:38

rights movement. While you know it's just it's inherently

19:40

racist, nothing do about we never. We have tried

19:42

to get equitable treatment for women. In the word

19:44

bizarre to sexes, country can't do anything about it.

19:46

I just think that cynicism can be a way.

19:49

Of. Giving up on things

19:51

that are really, really worth

19:53

fighting for. And one

19:55

of those things is public health.

19:58

So. Yeah, I know it's hard. And yes

20:00

yeah yeah. I've worked in politics known as

20:02

to tell me about the influence of money

20:04

but I'm not willing to just say well,

20:07

you gotta let companies do whatever they feel

20:09

like because this is America. Psyche know, America

20:11

has never gotten better. Buy. Some,

20:13

and you looked at it that way. tie

20:15

with your cynicism without any hope. On

20:19

the other hand, some. Companies

20:22

do get away slips it's a

20:24

lot of and the more that

20:26

we see the way that the

20:28

the judicial process happens the more

20:30

it makes can make somebody feel

20:32

frustrated. That and I want. Of course,

20:34

of course I feel frustrated to obviously you

20:37

know, I mean, I wouldn't put that much

20:39

effort into. Designing. Models

20:41

were this legalization could reduce our if

20:43

I didn't You know if a man

20:45

I'm very disappointed because we haven't We

20:47

have not done that as a country

20:49

and I tell. Friends. And other

20:52

countries where legalizing whatever you do don't

20:54

look at us is looking Canada. Look.

20:56

At look at our A Glide. Maybe they'll

20:58

look at Germany. They may be legalized. You're

21:00

not gonna get a public health oriented model

21:03

and ugly setting up at Best Model added.

21:05

Leave us at the national level. Of

21:07

course, state still have options, right? So they

21:09

could be states that. Bomb.

21:12

Including some states which is dead states

21:14

was rocket could choose to do something

21:16

different and be an example of different

21:18

ways to do things. I'm

21:21

another. I mean. Well

21:23

let me before I get to the

21:25

complaints I have about the legalization says

21:27

where I assume you might agree with

21:30

me A let me just ask you

21:32

if you think these these. Monsters.

21:35

Are already at a pandora's. Box I'm

21:37

it. is it too late?

21:40

To six the way Canada's has

21:42

been legalized. So. The argument

21:44

that was made. Prior. To

21:47

legalization. Mao was by many

21:49

people. Is. What? We're gonna

21:51

make Really loose regulation now, but don't

21:53

worry, we can tighten it up later

21:55

and I said at the time. that's

21:58

exist that's really a sport the history

22:00

of corporate industry in the United States.

22:03

The easiest time to regulate is before that

22:05

industry is big and rich. Once it's big

22:07

and rich, it's really hard to tighten up.

22:10

So you are right that

22:12

the best opportunity we had was

22:15

prior to legalization to set up a

22:17

really strong framework. At

22:19

the same time, federally, we haven't legalized

22:21

yet, and a lot of states haven't

22:24

legalized yet. So in those cases, we

22:26

do have the option to set things

22:28

up more intelligently than we did in

22:30

places where we just said, you know,

22:34

tell you what, let's have the industry say,

22:36

jump, and we'll ask how high. I

22:38

agree with that. And the other thing that I think

22:41

you might agree with me on is the fact that

22:45

the legalization of marijuana is not fixing

22:47

the criminal justice system in the way

22:49

people think it is. Statistics show that

22:51

between 2001 and 2010, black people were

22:56

273% more likely to be arrested for

22:59

possessing marijuana. And

23:02

now that we've had a lot of states legalize it,

23:04

black people are 264% more likely to be arrested

23:07

for possession. So

23:09

I honestly think you should really be mad at activists

23:11

for a lot of this stuff, because there were a

23:13

bunch of people, and I was one of them, who

23:15

said this in advance. This was a false promise. I

23:18

wanted to like, you know, that prisons, I heard this

23:20

over and again, our prison system is full of people

23:22

who are just there for smoking pot. I've

23:25

spent a lot of time in prisons in my

23:27

career, that is not who was in prison at

23:29

all. Whether you think that it was good or

23:31

bad, it was the last pot, that's never going

23:33

to change the prison population. You know, people there

23:35

are there for very serious crimes, usually

23:37

multiple crimes, printed over many, many

23:41

years. So it's not, it's easy to

23:43

say, I'm really against mass incarceration, because

23:45

I want to let that kid who

23:47

went to Princeton, who volunteers down at

23:49

the church, not serve 20

23:51

years for smoking a joint, just like that's not

23:53

real life. And cannabis legalization

23:56

was oversold on that basis, on

23:58

a decarceration basis. and also

24:00

undermine the efforts to de-arsurate by

24:02

telling a lot of people that

24:04

all you had to do was

24:06

legalize pot. Don't worry about reforming

24:08

the sentencing for violence, for example.

24:12

And then you've done something great when in

24:14

fact they did nothing. It was a meaningless

24:16

gesture that undermined the hard work of real

24:18

reform around de-carceration. Okay.

24:21

On that note of agreement, we're going to take another

24:23

break. We'll be back in just

24:25

a moment to continue this conversation about what

24:27

is the best way to legalize marijuana and

24:30

whether we're doing it. This

24:32

is Hear Me Out, a podcast from Slate, and we will

24:34

be right back. And

24:46

we're back. This is Hear Me

24:48

Out. Thanks for staying with us. We're talking

24:51

today about legal weed because our guest believes

24:54

we are not legalizing weed

24:56

in the right way, in a way that

24:58

would protect public health,

25:00

safety, and the future of society,

25:03

I guess. And

25:05

on that note, before

25:08

the break, I asked you if

25:10

the monsters were already at a

25:12

Pandora's box. Now let me

25:14

put you the opposite question. Perhaps

25:17

it's not quite as dire as

25:21

we might be led to think. Maybe this is the

25:23

way legislation

25:25

always works in the United States in

25:27

which they make a change, they realize

25:29

it's causing particular problems, and then it

25:32

gets tweaked. So maybe that's what

25:34

we're in the process of. Well,

25:36

yeah, I'd like to think that. It

25:39

can be a long slog. If

25:41

you compare it to the tobacco industry, of course, it

25:43

pretty much got its way for a very, very long

25:46

time, and everyone was afraid to confront them. But

25:48

eventually, some early adopters

25:50

of a public health approach took the

25:52

risk, got things going. It still took

25:54

decades to get decent taxes, to get

25:56

ads off TV, all that sort of

25:58

stuff. I think we

26:01

are not, Public Health is in a

26:03

weird defensive crouch about cannabis is one of the

26:05

interesting things about cannabis. It has all this cultural

26:07

meaning to people, by which I mean that in

26:10

a lot of public health departments, if cannabis were

26:12

alcohol or tobacco, they would be raising the alarm.

26:14

But the average public health officials think, I don't

26:16

want to sound like a blue rinse mom from

26:18

the 1980s. I don't want

26:21

to be anti-weed. I'm cool. I'm cool. And

26:24

so they have not been out there in

26:26

front at the level you would expect given

26:28

how they normally react to an industry

26:30

that sells an addictive drug. So I think that's going

26:32

to take a while. It's going to take a lot

26:35

of people to realize, oh, there is still harm here.

26:37

Oh, I have an obligation. Oh, I

26:40

think of myself as liberal. I guess I don't really

26:42

believe in the idea that anything a wealthy company wants

26:44

to do is fine as long as they're making money.

26:48

That sort of cultural change needs to happen. And

26:50

also people need to get an awareness of who

26:52

the industry is. Before

26:54

legalization, a lot of people imagined, well, the industry

26:56

is going to be really gentle,

26:59

sweet hippies, and they're going to be brooding over

27:01

their plants and setting it aside 10% to

27:03

save the whales. Just like, no, it's going

27:05

to be Wall Street. It's going

27:08

to be MBAs and lawyers and

27:10

people who know how to maximize profit and

27:12

Madison Avenue who knows how to advertise. But

27:14

that hasn't been fully baked into people's heads

27:17

yet. They're still thinking like, well, the cannabis industry

27:20

would never do anything wrong because cannabis

27:22

is about goodness and peace and

27:24

all that. So that consciousness

27:26

needs to develop, which I see happening more and

27:28

more, but it's going to take a while. So

27:32

then I wonder, let me ask if you

27:34

think there are other and

27:36

higher priorities. And I say that because,

27:39

look, I recently did a three-year-long investigation into

27:42

the sugar industry

27:44

and sugar is really bad for your

27:46

health. I mean, the top two leading

27:48

causes of death in the United States

27:51

are heart disease and cancer. Both

27:53

are strongly associated with

27:56

the overconsumption of sugar. Eating

27:59

too much sugar. Causes heart disease

28:01

some cancers it's associated with diabetes.

28:03

It's killing people um,

28:05

and we don't Seem to

28:08

be worried about that at all. We subsidize

28:10

the sugar industry. So it you know is

28:12

the legalization of weed our highest priority Um,

28:15

well, yeah, I think you could point out other

28:17

terrible things. I mean, you know, I i'm more

28:20

Weed's not going to destroy the planet

28:22

climate change might Um, it

28:24

bothers me that there are more guns than

28:26

people in our country I mean there's you

28:28

know, but but you know, there's uh, one

28:30

of my favorite quotes is you know, more

28:32

than one thing can be sad Um,

28:35

you know, they could all be bad We

28:37

can and also we're capable clearly of working on

28:39

more than thing more than one thing At

28:42

once it may also be true with addictions

28:44

that we get some spillover benefit in other

28:46

words You know, it's very common for people

28:48

if they get addicted to one thing to

28:51

then get addicted to other things So

28:53

it could be the things we do, you know that Can

28:56

you know limit the number of people who

28:58

become really heavy cannabis smokers might also limit,

29:01

you know The number who pick up other,

29:03

you know, bad health habits Um,

29:05

so maybe you know the things you're working on

29:07

with sugar could actually help Things

29:10

with cannabis or things with other drugs Which

29:14

just leads me back as we as we

29:16

wrap our conversation here I'm kind of led

29:18

back over and over again to capitalism and

29:20

I have to wonder if the the

29:25

The urge to make money is kind of

29:27

at the heart of everything that we're talking

29:29

about because again the overuse of

29:31

sugar is Hardly

29:33

because of chasing profits on the

29:35

part of the sugar barons Um,

29:38

one of the biggest problems with legalizing weed

29:40

as you describe it is the fact that

29:42

it became a profit generating Industry

29:45

before it was, you know

29:47

pharmacologically safe. I mean is that What

29:50

do you think is this the problem really? The

29:53

the strength of capitalism in this country. Yeah.

29:56

Well, I mean I Think drugs Addictive

29:58

drugs are the ultimate. This product

30:00

because people will spend and spend And spend

30:02

and Spend. And even

30:04

even as other things are being destroyed

30:07

and we we see that with all

30:09

these drugs. So even out all yet

30:11

alcohol yeah and they aren't is not

30:13

yeah alcohol, tobacco, cocaine you. They're not

30:15

ordinary commodities. So I I'm actually fine

30:17

with capitalism when it comes to like

30:19

lettuce. I like lettuce you know as

30:21

as in the store it seems to

30:24

be clean is pretty cheap, capitalism market

30:26

seem to work pretty well but I

30:28

don't know the capitalism Unrestrained capitalism works

30:30

very well with addictive products and so

30:32

that means to me not. The doesn't

30:34

make me want to become, you know, a socialist,

30:36

but it does make me want to say I'd

30:38

like to have some really tight regulation of of

30:40

this because I don't think. You. Know

30:43

sugar in cannabis go in the same

30:45

been as lettuce in in terms a

30:47

high think about products. And.

30:49

Yeah, I think we can do that. We've done

30:51

it with other products that you have me do

30:53

that. We're doing it to some extent now.

30:55

Of fossil fuels. We've done that with tobacco. We

30:58

need to apply that reasoning to cannabis as well.

31:01

I will say though, since you mentioned

31:03

lettuce that it's more likely to. Cause.

31:06

A salmonella outbreak or even sometimes he

31:08

call eye then. God. Now you've

31:10

ruined. lead us for me. And there's

31:13

a There's a. There's a disparity also

31:15

between the colony of lettuce. In low

31:17

income communities versus high income that as a

31:19

low. Income ones are way more likely to. How

31:21

can I kiss and you have now matter and

31:24

so you will be glad to know you have

31:26

now won an argument and change my mind. I

31:28

now anti lettuce and citizens. Sorry,

31:32

it's the cynical dinner. Know that I

31:34

have to ruin everything. dang. as soon

31:37

as. Well

31:39

I. Mean, this is the end of the

31:42

conversation. It's I think it's a really interesting

31:44

one and I'm glad that you're out there

31:46

talking about it because I don't think enough

31:48

people are thinking about giving this as much

31:50

thought, including the legislators who are making decisions

31:53

on these laws. And I hope. that

31:55

you can inspire people to talk about it more

31:57

well thanks amy i'm shy really present your passion

32:00

and intelligence and I enjoyed the conversation very

32:02

much. Me too. Have a great one.

32:04

You too. Take care. We

32:12

always want to know what you think and look,

32:15

anytime we're talking about weed or

32:18

addiction, there are going to be a lot

32:20

of opinions out there. So email your opinion

32:22

to us. We want to hear it. Hear

32:25

me out at slate.com. Last

32:28

week we had Jamila Lemieux on the show.

32:30

She was talking about mixed race relationships and

32:32

whether the rise in those

32:34

relationships means society is less racist. You

32:36

all had some really interesting responses to

32:39

that episode. So before we go, we

32:41

wanted to share one of them. This

32:43

is a really thoughtful email that came to us

32:46

from a listener named David. David says this. I

32:49

was motivated to address Ms. Lemieux's comments

32:51

because I worry about what other younger

32:53

listeners in happy relationships may choose to

32:56

do if her views remain unopposed. I

32:59

started writing this at about 4.30 a.m. with

33:01

my wife of about 30 years asleep beside

33:03

me. I was woken by a splinter in

33:05

my foot from work the previous day. She

33:07

noticed me on my phone and sent me

33:10

to get the tweezers. About 10 minutes later

33:12

she'd gotten the little bastard out. I've done

33:14

similar for her on many occasions. That's the

33:16

point of our marriage. Enduring

33:18

love, not grand racial equality schemes.

33:21

Yes, when we were engaged, interracial

33:24

marriage was still technically illegal in

33:26

one last state, not ours. And

33:29

interracial marriages were still rare, though

33:31

not remarkable. It didn't make me

33:33

love her any more or less. I

33:35

have a lot more to say about

33:37

Ms. Lemieux's generalizations about marriages such as

33:40

ours. Her qualifying her prejudices with words

33:42

like a lot of didn't make them

33:44

less hurtful. But I need to cut

33:46

this email short to make breakfast for my wife.

33:49

And David, that is just about the sweetest

33:52

possible way you could push back on

33:54

any guest's opinions. So thank you for

33:56

that, not only for the email, but

33:58

for that lovely picture. Have

34:01

a beautiful marriage, And again we

34:03

love hearing from you whether you're story is sweet

34:05

for less with the so let us know what's

34:07

on your mind If hear me out at Political.

34:10

Hear. Me Out is a podcast translate. The

34:12

show was produced by More occurring in Richmond

34:15

is the senior director a podcast at the

34:17

Russians and Elisa Montgomery is a D P.

34:19

Have played a deal I'm your host, Bill

34:21

As Headlights and until next time I hope

34:23

you speak your mind.