0:15

Hello and welcome to Outwards, Slate's

0:17

podcast where we welcome queers and

0:19

allies of all parties. Dance parties,

0:21

underwear parties, Tupperware parties, pajama parties.

0:24

Everyone is welcome. I'm

0:26

Brian Lowder, an editor at Slate, and

0:28

this week we're digging into a topic

0:30

that I have always found somewhat mysterious

0:33

and perplexing, the phenomenon of the gay

0:35

Republican. Now I want to

0:37

be clear, I say perplexing not because I think

0:39

all queers should be capital D Democrats in terms

0:41

of party affiliation. While that may be the practical

0:43

thing in our current system in terms of voting,

0:45

there's a lot to be desired with

0:48

that party as well. And it's always

0:50

worth remembering that the Dems only pretty

0:52

recently came around to supporting LGBTQ equality

0:54

themselves. But you have to admit that

0:56

it is undeniably strange to align oneself

0:58

with a political movement that seems to

1:00

actively hate you, particularly in

1:02

a time when that hatred has really

1:04

freed itself from the shackles of politeness

1:07

and made its way out into the

1:09

open into don't say gay style bills

1:11

and all of that. It's easy to

1:13

dismiss LGBT Republicans as maybe delusional or

1:15

hypocritical, but as it turns out, there's

1:17

a lot more that draws a not

1:19

insignificant number of queers to conservatism. To

1:22

help us understand all this, we're joined today

1:24

by the writer and historian Neil J. Young,

1:27

who's written a fascinating book titled Coming Out

1:29

Republican, A History of the Gay Right. Neil's

1:31

book is the landmark account of this group,

1:33

and it's a much needed, richly told addition

1:35

to not only the history of the right

1:37

in America, but to LGBTQ history in general.

1:39

Because as we will discuss, gay Republicans have

1:41

been far more influential in our movement than

1:43

we give them credit for. Even

1:46

if their particular path has led us

1:48

to a world where neo-fascist MAGA gays

1:50

are out here fighting woke and Caitlyn

1:52

Jenner is appearing regularly on Fox News.

1:55

We'll be back with that conversation and with

1:57

Neil right after A little break. Neil.

2:19

Young is the author previously of We Gather

2:21

Together, The Religious Right and A Problem It's

2:23

Interfaith Politics has workers appeared and publications good New

2:25

York Times, Washington Post, Atlantic, Los Angeles Times

2:27

at Slate and he co has to History

2:29

podcast past present. I'm so excited to have

2:31

you on the shirt is a new welcome

2:33

to our thank you so much for having me

2:35

there to be here! This book is really incredible.

2:38

I really can't praise it enough and at

2:40

it's not something that I thought I would

2:42

necessarily be as excited about given the subject

2:44

matter. So adding that really speak to what

2:46

you've accomplished us in your writing and your

2:48

story telling. And I wireless. Must understand that it

2:50

really is a book full of stories. It's it's

2:52

history that it's it really comes alive with the

2:54

source of the particular figures that you choose to

2:56

serve tell that history through. So I really hope

2:59

our listeners over ticket Optus just for that entertainment

3:01

aspect of not for the education so I thought

3:03

we would start our conversation before he really get

3:05

into the meat of the book. I was like

3:08

to hear from an author what drew them to

3:10

their products are of on a personal level before

3:12

we get into the project and I'm really interested

3:14

to hear because you write the sooner. You know

3:17

straightforward historical way as it's not in their. Editorializing

3:19

a lotta a lot of judgment, nearly

3:21

most of the conclusions to us to

3:23

the reader but you know it is

3:25

clear that you're not. maybe as exactly

3:27

approving of the victims and all moments

3:29

and us some curious what drove you

3:31

to don't want to take this project

3:33

on. It's. been interesting to hear people's

3:36

reactions to i'm how they've suffered on i

3:38

think it you know it's fix to out

3:40

there vantage points as readers arms this is

3:42

not a memoir i am now gave republic

3:44

exactly are because you know yards but lots

3:46

of assumptions adult and to a project like

3:48

this when you know that about into the

3:51

world but i'm i did grow up and

3:53

a republican family around and so and that

3:55

saved you know my first project about the

3:57

history of the religious right this is an

3:59

idea I have had in mind for well

4:01

over 20 years. I was someone

4:04

who went off to college, came out of

4:06

the closet, shifted by politics and compressing history

4:08

here. But I

4:10

think it's a familiar arc that a lot of

4:12

people have. Certainly a lot of people around

4:14

me, a lot of my friends in college were doing the same.

4:16

And I moved to New York City right after college where I

4:19

lived for some 20 years and started meeting

4:21

these guys who were bankers and

4:24

consultants and who told me they

4:26

were libertarians. One

4:28

of them told me that he belonged to this organization

4:30

called Log Cabin Republicans. And this was

4:33

the early 2000s, just the beginning of

4:35

the first Bush administration. And

4:37

it was also the same years that that

4:39

organization was becoming nationally prominent. So I started

4:41

hearing about it more in the news and

4:43

such. I just sort of filed it away

4:45

as an interesting idea, potentially a second book

4:47

project. But when they got really delayed for

4:49

a long time, it was sort of put

4:51

on the back burner of my mind. Two

4:54

things happened in 2019 that made it come to

4:56

the forefront. And maybe made

4:58

me do this project now. When is Pete Buttigieg

5:00

running for president? Now, obviously

5:02

not a Republican, but someone who is

5:04

running as at the time, a sort

5:07

of centrist Democrat was getting attacked a

5:09

lot from the left, particularly from the

5:11

LGBTQ left. I wrote a

5:13

couple of columns about that at the

5:15

time. And I thought I started to

5:17

think, you know, we need a bigger

5:19

narrative history here of LGBTQ people that

5:21

isn't a history of progressive politics, that

5:24

wrestles with the larger political spectrum the

5:26

LGBTQ people belong to. And so that

5:28

was part of it. And then also

5:30

in 2019, both the Trump

5:32

campaign and the Republican

5:34

National Committee in preparation for the

5:36

2020 election, they both started doing

5:38

outreach efforts to LGBTQ voters. Now,

5:41

I view that very cynically in the book,

5:43

but I also recognized it was historically significant.

5:45

And so those two incidents made me want

5:47

to delve into this history and to do

5:49

this project now. Little Did

5:51

I know everything that was coming down the pipeline

5:53

as I was writing this. They made it all

5:56

the more interesting and urgent. No, urgent stream, even

5:58

just reading the last bit of the book. kinda

6:00

conclusion. It's like you know you can only be

6:02

so current and and a book that's file that

6:04

a certain time. But one of the things that

6:06

I wanted to sort of start with to said

6:09

sir situate our listeners is the values that use

6:11

of trace through the history of the gay riot

6:13

because they evolve sort of in conversation with the

6:15

party at South and what the party is doing

6:17

and espousing what the larger public but I thought

6:19

it would be good. Citizens are defined as core

6:22

beliefs are that you surf B C C at

6:24

the beginning in nineteen cities and you see them

6:26

to countries to could you just do that for

6:28

us. Yeah. I think you know

6:30

these at this as a group

6:32

that changes a lot over time.

6:35

yeah, show and thus bark and

6:37

even in moments there, there's diversity

6:39

within based this demographic I'm looking

6:41

at, but there are really sorry

6:44

core philosophical tenets that I think

6:46

spam this period which is one

6:48

us a farm adherence to fiscal

6:50

conservatism generally meaning lower taxes, less

6:52

government spending, sort of limited government

6:55

in general. Secondly, robust appreciation, an

6:57

advocacy for national security, politics and.

6:59

Especially through the military are sort

7:01

of aggressive foreign policy posture also

7:03

after the Nineteen eighties increasing and

7:05

preciation for an advocacy of law

7:07

enforcement which is not true for

7:09

the decades prior to that which

7:11

we can maybe talk about. And

7:13

and lastly this from Defense of

7:16

Individual right right now. that's a

7:18

discourse that's really expensive and it

7:20

can mean all sorts of different

7:22

things as I show in the

7:24

book and sometimes it includes their

7:26

notions of gay rights, other times

7:28

it's a sort of conservative. Anti

7:30

identity position. but that discourse and out politics

7:32

of individual rights as one that I think

7:34

you see over the seventy or period that

7:36

I'm writing about. Yeah it's really fascinating to

7:38

see how that what what that can encompass

7:40

and how it how it strips of server

7:42

time. Another I think spring the way to

7:44

make clear at the start in the you

7:46

may very clear throughout the book is the

7:48

demographics of this group like we're we're really

7:50

talking to the specific group of people with

7:52

some you know other fix and at the

7:54

really it's a corgi. I think he should

7:56

define that for her listeners do because it

7:58

does. It influences. the power right? Like

8:01

the background of these guys, I'm gonna

8:03

say, influences politics. Yeah,

8:05

this is a book almost entirely in

8:07

a history almost entirely of white gay

8:09

men. Right. You

8:12

know, the subtitle is A History of

8:14

the Gay Right, which the working title

8:16

I think was, you know, something about

8:18

LGBTQ conservatism. And certainly the broader terrain

8:21

of this book that I reference,

8:24

you know, throughout is the LGBTQ right.

8:26

But the bulk of this study is

8:28

about gay white men because they were

8:30

at the forefront of the organizations, most

8:33

importantly, log cabin Republicans, but other organizations

8:35

I look at. And also at the

8:37

forefront of the sort of the public

8:39

persons who were the spokespersons and the

8:41

figureheads and the media figures who have

8:44

been seen through this period. And that

8:46

was frustrating me as I was doing

8:48

this research, because I thought, my gosh,

8:50

you know, I wanted to write

8:53

a book with much more diverse characters. Like

8:55

where are the women? Where are the persons

8:57

of color? I was doing everything I could

8:59

to bring them into the narrative. And there

9:01

are some here, but then I realized obviously

9:03

as historian, the evidence speaks for itself. This

9:06

is a movement and these were organizations

9:08

that were overwhelmingly, we're talking about above

9:10

90% in many of the cases of

9:12

white gay men. And so then this

9:14

actually became fundamental to the argument. What

9:16

does it mean? What does the whiteness

9:18

mean? What does the maleness mean for

9:20

the larger politics that they were advocating

9:22

and also for the relationship with the

9:24

Republican party and conservatism more broadly? JS Yeah.

9:27

I mean, it's just so clear just to

9:29

say it bluntly that a commitment to individualism

9:31

is a lot easier when you are a

9:33

white gay man, right? So that's something that

9:35

sort of you can trace through the book.

9:38

So let's go back to the beginning. One

9:41

thing that this book does that I

9:43

think is really, really important, and this

9:45

is a frustration of mine in general,

9:47

is that the origins of the modern

9:49

gay rights movement are not stone wall.

9:51

They're not the anti-police sort of radical

9:53

mood that happened there in

9:56

1969. Actually, the movement begins about 20 years

9:58

before that, and really under pretty consistent. conservative

10:00

auspices, right? We're talking about the

10:02

homophile movement, the managing society, and

10:04

in that environment, in that sort

10:06

of moment in time, a lot

10:08

of the people who were doing

10:11

that, sort of beginnings

10:13

of activism were conservative people, right,

10:15

so I was wondering if you could tell us a

10:17

little bit about the story of Dorr Legg, which is

10:20

a character we see throughout the book, but particularly at

10:22

the beginning, and who were those people at, really at

10:24

the beginning of what we now call the gay rights

10:26

movement? Yeah, so my book begins in the 1950s, in

10:29

the era of the closet, the Lavender

10:31

Scare, but the opening chapter is about

10:34

this man named Dorr Legg, who grew

10:36

up in Michigan in a Republican family,

10:38

very libertarian family, small business owners, and

10:41

had a sort of don't tread on

10:43

me politics. He moves out to

10:45

Los Angeles here, where I live, in the early

10:47

1940s, and he

10:49

moves in part because he was arrested

10:52

in Detroit. He liked to date black

10:54

men, and being a white man walking

10:56

around with groups of black men,

10:58

attracted the police and the vice squads attention.

11:01

So he's arrested in Michigan, he thinks, you

11:03

know, what in the world, isn't this supposed

11:05

to be a free country, I'm gonna move

11:08

out to California, the land of freedom, of

11:10

opportunity, of tolerance, and he becomes one of

11:12

the first members, he's not a founding member,

11:14

but he's a very early member of the

11:17

Mattachine Society. And then he is part of

11:19

a group that's kind of

11:21

a bunch of right of center guys

11:23

who break away from Mattachine. Mattachine had

11:25

a sort of community event to it,

11:27

because of its founder, Harry Hay, and

11:29

also because a lot of the members

11:31

were also members of the Communist Party

11:33

USA, although it contained a broad swath

11:36

of politics. But these right of center

11:38

guys break away, they found their own

11:40

organization called One Inc, and

11:42

it publishes One of the most

11:44

important magazines of the CRO, Homophile magazines of

11:46

the CRO, One Magazine. And. It's created one

11:48

of the most important archives for anybody that's

11:50

doing queer history now. This is such a

11:52

fascinating connection, right? that one is related to

11:55

this guy, Yeah., Exactly. But He has a

11:57

right of center politics, he believes that the

11:59

pathway towards. Read on his and A

12:01

Limiting the government. This is not a

12:03

surprising position to take when you're in

12:06

the midst a will have a lavender

12:08

stamps when the entire apparatus of the

12:10

Federal government has been directed to surveilling,

12:12

harassing, criminalizing, and imprisoning gay person's listeners

12:14

may remember when we talked about fellow

12:17

travelers the show a few episodes Again,

12:19

this is the period that we're talking

12:21

about. Yeah, that such a great reference

12:23

point for this very era and I

12:26

think it did a great job bringing

12:28

us to life. you know? So. He

12:30

thinks that the pathway to freedom isn't

12:32

you know with a rights based consciousness

12:34

movement it's and limiting governments restraining powers

12:37

and letting people live their lives freely

12:39

without government harassment. And he eventually you

12:41

know some twenty plus years later as

12:43

one of the founding members of the

12:45

Log Cabin Club that begins in Los

12:47

Angeles I'm in late night in Somebody

12:50

Is Yeah and it's fascinating because you

12:52

know again and my interest would have

12:54

said something about looking at these people

12:56

as as hypocrites or as delusional but

12:58

actually you made me feel a different

13:01

feeling which is that these folks were

13:03

brave and I'll and a lot of

13:05

ways there is a bravery present. Ah

13:07

especially at this at the serve beginning

13:09

era in the actions and choices that

13:11

is sex made like lagged. Can you

13:14

talk a little bit about that sense

13:16

of bravery that you clearly saw their

13:18

to the just comes through in the

13:20

writing. And. Body so that

13:22

because that something that I think

13:24

surprised me and sourcing thus and

13:26

writing it but realized it was.

13:29

Really? A trail. And it

13:31

was something that I wanted to highlight. and

13:33

the narrative particularly. and these early decades my

13:36

tongue definitely sense as we get closer to

13:38

our present by the end of Nineteen fifties,

13:40

sixties, seventies for these guys to come out

13:42

of the closet, For them to risk everything

13:45

to do so, for them to come out

13:47

of the closet. Also to challenge governmental power.

13:49

You know, one inc sues the federal government.

13:51

Riot A wearing a goes all the way

13:54

to the Supreme Court. This is one of

13:56

the most fundamental to cases of the twentieth

13:58

century that establishes Lgbtq. for This is

14:00

the case about being able to mail

14:03

their magazine, right? Yeah, the

14:05

U.S. post office was constantly shutting

14:07

down the publication. They went and

14:09

distributed it, and they charged the

14:11

magazine with obscenity. And

14:13

One Inc. took this case. They tried to

14:15

get the ACLU to help them out with

14:17

this, and the ACLU would not do this.

14:20

So just giving you a sense of the

14:22

politics here, and One Inc. pursued it nevertheless

14:24

on First Amendment grounds, and they won that

14:26

case. And that established

14:29

an incredible foundation of freedom

14:31

that really shaped the second half of the

14:33

20th century around LGBTQ rights, but also around

14:35

just First Amendment rights in general.

14:38

So yeah, unbelievable bravery from these folks,

14:40

especially because one of the things I'm

14:42

constantly contrasting, a lot of this story,

14:44

especially in the early decades, is set

14:46

in California. And you have all these

14:48

out gay men in California who are

14:51

risking a lot to be out, to

14:53

challenge, the government's oppression

14:55

of them, and also to challenge the

14:57

Republican Party to include them in it.

15:00

And those are set against a

15:02

different sort of actors in my

15:04

book, which are the closeted gay

15:06

Republicans in Washington, D.C. who are

15:08

hiding their lives, often through being

15:10

married to women or what else,

15:12

because they're pursuing power for themselves.

15:15

They're pursuing professional advantage, and less

15:17

so any sense of gay rights. And so

15:19

that was a sort of, it was interesting

15:22

to see these two sets of people sort

15:24

of set against each other through these decades,

15:26

and I think it only highlights the bravery

15:28

of a lot of these actors. Yeah,

15:30

absolutely. I want to jump ahead a

15:33

little bit, and this question is

15:35

going to be a bit of a crossover to

15:37

another Slight podcast. You may know that on Slow

15:39

Burn, the upcoming season is going to be about

15:41

the Briggs Initiative. And so there's a wonderful chapter

15:43

about the Briggs Initiative in your book. And I

15:45

also thought that it was useful to talk about

15:47

that moment, because it really captures, I think, some

15:50

of the main tensions that you're tracing sort of

15:52

throughout the evolution of the gay right. One

15:54

is this sort of sense of privacy

15:57

versus visibility as being values, and especially,

16:00

This into mainstream game is matt with

16:02

moving towards disability, hair, zoc, the gay

16:04

right as Marx and privacy. Also this

16:06

distinction between being an interest group versus

16:08

an identity serve community right and so

16:10

and Briggs we have our you tell

16:12

the story that in Briggs we basically

16:14

have a republican and California wanting to

16:16

block day teachers from teaching in the

16:18

classroom is a broader than that actually

16:20

that but that sort of that the

16:22

meat of it. And so the Game

16:24

Republicans there has to activate around this

16:26

right because they don't want that top

16:28

and to tell us has about that.

16:30

Story briefly: x We're gonna have a

16:32

whole season pass out at latest data,

16:34

but also how you see the sort

16:36

of self definition playing out because as

16:38

I felt like it was really relevant,

16:40

they're. Yeah. So John Briggs

16:42

is a State legislator a republican say

16:44

legislator from Orange County, California he puts

16:47

for this valid proposition becomes known as

16:49

the Briggs Initiative. The as you said

16:51

would have made it illegal for a

16:53

person's to work in the public school

16:55

system of California. This is in Nineteen

16:57

Seventy Eight and day Republicans in large

17:00

part to me to start coming out

17:02

of the closets to organize against us

17:04

And this is where the first Log

17:06

cabin clubs are formed and seven Cisco

17:08

and Los Angeles in order to organize

17:10

people against. The Briggs and as good as

17:13

but one of the things you point to

17:15

as an ongoing internal debate among these gay

17:17

republicans of what what it is that they

17:19

rapper yeah, like what is the politics said

17:21

are advocating for? Is it visibility is a

17:24

recognition or is it just leave us alone

17:26

And in. And that's the sort of invisibility

17:28

politics right? Like don't come after us like

17:30

let's get rid of these discriminatory laws the

17:32

we're not asking for any rights as opposed

17:34

to some who are saying you know we

17:36

need to be visible in the party because

17:39

in order to be visible in the party,

17:41

they'll. Recognize that day person's both

17:43

are republicans ones were hard workers

17:45

for the G O P and

17:47

therefore though extend to us things

17:50

like employment protection and allow us

17:52

to serve in the military and

17:54

eventually the right to marriage. So

17:56

stuff like an ongoing debate with

17:58

different larger movement. The never really

18:01

goes away. Frank. We're going

18:03

to take quick break and they we'll be back. More

18:05

some Neil out there. how a sense right after. On

18:11

I revived meal I wanted to ask about

18:13

this idea of gay family values. So you

18:16

you take us up to the eighties and

18:18

to the Aids crisis and the game right

18:20

sort of has to take an interesting turn.

18:22

Their one thing that you show us that

18:24

I did not now and I think this

18:26

is really interesting is that it was gay.

18:28

Republican groups are some of the first to

18:30

activate around the Aids crisis right to do

18:33

fundraising inserts as raise the alarm about at

18:35

when some other groups were were less eager

18:37

to do that for wanting to protecting I

18:39

got thousands and that kind of thing as.

18:41

To first, there's also have a broader

18:43

kind of ideological turn among Republicans to

18:45

claiming family values as their own and

18:47

as values might be like monogamy, being

18:49

relationship or and ted and and sort

18:51

of a sense that that somehow gaze

18:53

could help stabilize the country. And to

18:56

tell us a little bit about taxes

18:58

such it's kind of funny phrase, get

19:00

on with eyes but it's but it

19:02

really did. It really was a major

19:04

shift. Absolutely the So

19:06

Such a fascinating period for me to

19:08

research and to write about because there

19:11

is such an enormous transformation and a

19:13

very short period of time of the

19:15

politics Yard so day Republicans in the

19:17

early eighties. essence emphasis know the first

19:19

gay Republican organization that still as existing

19:22

to the states. I was called Concerned

19:24

Republicans for and of Animal Rights. It's

19:26

now known as Log Cabin Republicans of

19:28

San Francisco for sounded and Nineteen Seventy

19:30

Eight has two hundred and fifty members

19:33

and the mid eighties making it the

19:35

largest Republican. Organization in the entire City

19:37

of San Francisco in the early years.

19:39

It is is a holds the very

19:41

first fundraiser for Hiv and the City

19:43

of San Francisco in the early eighties

19:46

and it started wrestling with the epidemic

19:48

really early on before a lot of

19:50

other day organizations even wanna turn technology

19:52

or grapple rad. There was a republican

19:54

Governor of California at the time and

19:56

disorganization believed it's duty was to provide

19:58

him and for me, Education and

20:00

to serve as an advocacy groups around

20:02

the policy decisions he could make about

20:05

Hiv. And then as you say, this

20:07

organization also defended the bathhouses staying open

20:09

in San Francisco Win! The democratic led

20:11

city officials on the public health department

20:13

tried to shut them down and they

20:15

were advocating around add discourse of personal

20:17

freedom which is really different than the

20:19

sort of discourse of the last of

20:21

sexual freedom they met. Personal freedom to

20:23

be I can do what I want

20:25

when my body I know what the

20:27

risk our I should be allowed to

20:29

take. Them as an individual and

20:32

also the government shut and sub

20:34

down businesses. Now by the late

20:36

eighties they start moving away from

20:38

this to the sun in large

20:40

part because the epidemic has been

20:42

so doubling. its decimated the organization

20:44

itself as it cause of every

20:46

gay community and also it has

20:49

inflamed a horrific homophobic politics on

20:51

the white within the republican party

20:53

and since there are larger strategy

20:55

is to improve their standing within

20:57

the G O P they think

20:59

okay. We cannot be steve the

21:01

voices of the The Bathhouse of

21:03

staying open because you know what

21:05

more for free enterprise and so

21:07

they adopt what I call of

21:09

gave family values discourse that sort

21:11

of accommodates the larger social conservatives

21:13

family values discourse of the era

21:15

but articulate say in a way

21:18

that see an Ohm not homophobic

21:20

but is predicated on monogamy on

21:22

release themselves on marriage. This is

21:24

when they start the advocating that

21:26

gays need to be allowed to

21:28

get married because if we get.

21:30

married these other words we won't be

21:32

promiscuous more curtail our sexual activities and

21:34

that will be of benefit to public

21:36

health and that will help stabilize the

21:38

nation so does the sort of direction

21:40

it has and to and i think

21:42

that only sets up the the really

21:44

conservative turn that gay republicans taken the

21:46

ninety nine is that i that i

21:48

write about and the years that followed

21:51

yeah now and i mean that that's

21:53

that's where i want to connect to

21:55

the this is you know it's it's

21:57

interesting from the system to maybe the

21:59

eighties there is a sense, for me,

22:01

speaking personally, I felt

22:04

maybe a little more understanding or a little

22:06

more empathy for this position, even though it's

22:08

not one that I would hold. But there

22:10

was stuff to admire, right? Like the bravery

22:12

we were talking about and certainly the AIDS

22:14

activism. But after that, things take a turn,

22:16

I think. I don't want to put words

22:18

in your mouth, but that's how I felt

22:21

about it. Particularly, you frame it in terms

22:23

of victimhood and grievance. You talk about how

22:25

the gay right made this turn

22:27

toward victimhood and grievance in terms of how

22:29

they, the rhetoric, and sort of how they

22:31

talked about themselves within the larger LGBT movement

22:33

and otherwise. And you did this very helpful

22:35

thing for me, which was to connect it

22:37

to the sort of white male grievance politics

22:39

that have come to be, I mean, the

22:41

Republican Party is that now, like, right? That's

22:43

what the party is about. And so I

22:45

had not made that connection before, but maybe

22:47

you can make it for our listeners. That's

22:49

right. Yeah, I think especially in that decade,

22:51

in the 90s, the movement becomes a lot

22:53

more conservative for a bunch of reasons. In

22:55

large part, because those libertarian folks of

22:57

the early years are almost all killed

22:59

off by the HIV crisis. There's a

23:01

different generation that comes along in the

23:03

90s and the 2000s, they're sort of

23:06

post Reagan babies, post HIV AIDS, you

23:08

know, to the extent that they're living

23:10

in a different historical moment and their

23:12

politics reflect that. And I think one

23:14

of the things you start seeing developing

23:17

in these years is the language of

23:19

it was harder for me to come

23:21

out as a Republican than it was

23:23

for me to come out as gay.

23:25

This becomes an increasing talking point on the

23:27

gay right. It actually goes back to the 80s,

23:30

but really it starts ramping up in the 2000s.

23:32

And I think it's

23:34

a talking point that is

23:36

especially well engineered for a

23:38

conservative media sphere that is

23:40

expanding in this period and

23:42

also in an era

23:44

in which public attitudes about homosexuality,

23:46

including on the right, are changing

23:49

so quickly. So when, you know,

23:52

a majority of Americans and even

23:54

eventually a majority of Republicans start

23:56

to express some sort of levels

23:58

of tolerance for homosexuality. and even

24:01

increasing levels of support

24:03

for gay rights as

24:06

tied to marriage and employment

24:08

protection, it becomes really politically

24:10

useful for gay persons on

24:12

the right to go

24:14

on Fox News or to write an article for

24:16

Breitbart and to say it was harder for me

24:18

to come out as a Republican than it was

24:21

for me to come out as gay because it

24:23

does two things. It says the gay rights movement

24:25

is over, mission accomplished, y'all don't need to worry

24:27

about this anymore. We are not

24:29

oppressed, we're not, you know, there's not bigotry

24:32

we have to face. Yeah, it's done. That,

24:34

you know, it's done. And also what is

24:36

the larger thing that it's saying is Republicans,

24:38

they are the most oppressed. And

24:41

by way of that, we mean,

24:43

what do we really mean? White

24:46

heterosexual Christian men. So it's a

24:48

sort of transference, right? That allows

24:50

the broader conservative grievance politics and

24:53

victimhood politics to have

24:55

a certain edge to it because it's

24:57

being validated by gay persons. This

24:59

is about the time in history

25:01

where I start covering gay politics and

25:03

writing about it in my own career.

25:06

And you bring us to this really harrowing moment, that's

25:08

kind of the end result of what you were just

25:11

talking about. That's really harrowing moment, sort

25:13

of in the mid teens of Milo

25:15

Yiannopoulos and the sort of

25:19

weaponization of gay people of

25:22

as he would put it, tagatory and

25:24

camp even, camp sensibility, around

25:28

Trump and to sort of legitimize

25:30

the right in

25:33

certain ways. Can you just, it's a painful

25:35

thing for me to remember because it was

25:37

just so awful but and gave

25:39

me nightmares for a long time. But tell us a

25:41

little bit about that moment and just how that was

25:43

kind of the apotheosis of what you

25:46

were just talking about. Yeah,

25:48

I mean, this was actually a really difficult chapter to

25:50

write because it was just so grim. These

25:53

characters are really horrible and there were folks

25:55

that I didn't even know about like Jack

25:58

Donahue who are white nationalist. Then

26:00

I'm and who are you know

26:02

close with Richard Spencer mask their

26:04

mass taken to the like worse

26:06

off some paths like a barbarian

26:08

for barbarian A yeah but he

26:10

would actually say by Milo obviously

26:12

had a much i'm He has

26:14

huge public voice within these decades

26:16

and he was really pushing. It's

26:18

the sort of politics of outrage

26:20

arm that was really campy. The

26:22

I like that he was bringing

26:24

the sort of camp sensibility to

26:26

Breitbart and to the far right

26:28

media sphere to Twitter. But. Again,

26:30

doing it on behalf of white

26:32

heterosexual man, his way of sort

26:35

of mainstreaming or even just sort

26:37

introducing massage any through the homosexual

26:39

the I am and also racism.

26:43

Was i think really sauce and adding

26:45

to look out from the vantage point

26:47

of now and to understand how. He.

26:50

Was at the forefront of sort of

26:52

pushing this adds into you know front

26:54

from the edge of sort of the

26:56

far right media sphere into mainstream conservative

26:58

politics and conservative media you know Milo

27:00

is really central. so bad we are

27:02

looking back on on remembering Now assists

27:04

Wilde because he he got away with

27:06

so much and it and it and

27:08

I guess at a got mainstream right

27:10

it was. It was this like Pepe

27:12

the Frog like craziness that now is

27:14

just. Completely. Taken over in

27:16

in that that discourse. you leave us with

27:18

the consideration of how give Republicans have turned

27:21

like along with their party against trans people

27:23

riot. That's that's her the moment that we

27:25

live in right now surname the last eight

27:27

years or so they've done not. What do

27:30

you think? history teaches us about that kind

27:32

of what I would see as an aunt

27:34

or betrayal and a turn against our own

27:36

people and I certainly don't see it that

27:39

way. But what he? What do you think

27:41

your your research in history has shown about

27:43

that kind of decision by think. And

27:45

a lotta ways Ed just exemplifies and

27:47

ongoing tension of this move. And then

27:50

we see throughout the history which is

27:52

Lights, What is, Who? Are we? What

27:54

is our community? Or. Do. we

27:56

have an identity are we in

27:58

interest group how expansive is this

28:00

community. And so I think it's

28:02

not surprising that you

28:04

have gay Republicans today, and

28:07

Log Cabin is among those who say

28:09

we are for trans rights. And by

28:11

that we mean, you know, we stand

28:13

for individual freedom for adults to live

28:16

their lives in any way

28:18

they want. And we support the legislation

28:20

and Supreme Court decisions that have been

28:22

around protecting, you know, that have given

28:25

employment protections and those sorts of things

28:27

to adults. But we distinguish that

28:30

from what they are calling

28:32

the radical gender ideology that's being imposed

28:34

on children. And it's worth noting that

28:36

that sort of distinction or that delineation

28:39

I think squares with large, maybe

28:41

even majority of Americans around these issues. So

28:43

I don't think there are radical outliers here

28:45

at all, and in a way that this

28:47

politics spans, you know, beyond just the Republican

28:49

Party. But I think the thing that I

28:52

kept asking, I interviewed almost three dozen people

28:54

for this book, and the

28:56

thing I kept asking current gay Republicans is, do

28:58

you have any fears of where this is

29:01

headed? I understand the distinction you're making, but

29:03

do you have any fears of where this

29:05

is headed? This is an opening wedge of

29:07

a broader assault on LGBTQ rights. And all

29:10

of them said no, absolutely not. These are

29:12

distinct legislative moments. These are

29:14

particular pieces of legislation. This is

29:16

not part of a broader assault.

29:18

And I think that that was

29:20

a very ahistorical notion of their

29:22

own history that I found really

29:25

shocking. And we'll see how this all

29:28

plays out. Obviously, I don't know what

29:30

the future holds, but the sense that

29:32

there is no sort of worry about

29:34

what they might be involved in facilitating,

29:36

I think is really, to

29:39

me, surprising. And I'll just say quickly to

29:41

wrap up, you know, this organization, as I

29:43

think my book shows, and I'm talking about

29:45

both log cabin Republicans and the broader gay

29:47

right, over the course of their history, they

29:49

really operated as the thorn in the side

29:52

of the Republican Party, prompting it to do

29:54

what was right, holding its feet to the

29:56

fire, calling it out for its homophobic actions

29:58

and moving it in a direct of

30:00

broader freedom. What I think has happened

30:03

in the Trump era is a complete

30:05

collapse into insider status that is one

30:07

to facilitate Trumpism, to be an

30:10

inside player as opposed to an outside provoker,

30:12

and that's an enormous transformation of this movement,

30:14

and I think that is one that we

30:16

see sort of most visibly through the trans

30:19

issue right now. Neil, this is

30:21

a fantastic conversation. The book is just incredible. I

30:23

hope our listeners will go pick it up,

30:26

even if you are not a gay Republican. I don't

30:28

know how many of them listen to us, but I

30:30

learned a lot and it really filled out like a

30:32

blind spot in my understanding of

30:34

gay history. So pick

30:36

it up. The book is called Coming Out

30:38

Republican, A History of the Gay Right. It

30:40

is written by Neil J. Young. Neil,

30:43

thank you for being on Outward. Thank you. It's great

30:45

to be here. I really appreciate it. That

30:51

is the show for this week.

30:53

Please send us feedback about it

30:55

and topic ideas for other shows

30:57

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