0:10

Hello and

0:12

welcome to Slate Money, your guide to

0:14

the business and finance news of the

0:17

week. I'm Felix Ammon of Axios with

0:19

Elizabeth Spires of New York Times and

0:21

places like that. Hello. I'm

0:23

here with my colleague Emily Peck of

0:25

Axios. Hey Felix. We

0:27

have a tech-heavy episode

0:30

today and it is

0:32

a particularly wonderful and

0:34

brilliant tech-heavy episode because

0:36

we have the smartest person

0:39

in tech on the show.

0:41

Shira Oviday, welcome back. Thank you. Smartest,

0:45

really? Smartest, 100%. I'll take the compliment.

0:49

Shira, who are you? Introduce yourself.

0:51

I am Shira Oviday. I write the

0:54

Tech Friend newsletter at the Washington Post.

0:56

Google it, sign up, it's free. And

0:59

you are going to help walk us

1:01

through the fuster cluck that

1:03

is internet service in the United States and

1:05

why it's so terrible. We

1:07

are going to talk about

1:09

YouTube and how mind-bogglingly enormous

1:11

it is. We

1:14

have a segment on the AI

1:16

hype machine and how it's gone

1:18

out of control. We have a

1:20

whole Slate Plus segment on where

1:22

the AI is getting their data

1:24

to train themselves on. It's

1:27

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2:57

I am so happy that you are on the

2:59

show this week because you can explain to

3:01

me, I have asked this question on the show

3:04

many, many times and I've never

3:07

received a decent answer, why

3:11

is internet in America

3:13

so fucking expensive? Look,

3:16

it's a great question and I

3:18

have often referred to internet service as

3:20

the worst essential

3:22

consumer product in the United States because

3:25

there's no information about what

3:28

is a good or fair price

3:30

to pay. You can find out

3:32

today what's a fair price

3:34

to pay if you want to fly

3:36

to Los Angeles in May. But

3:38

you really have no idea what's a good or fair

3:40

price to pay for internet service. The

3:43

government collects almost no information about

3:45

the speeds that people typically get

3:48

and it might be very different than the

3:50

advertised speeds that the companies promise. We

3:53

don't really have a good handle,

3:55

although that's improving on how many

3:57

people can't afford internet service

3:59

or... or lines simply don't reach

4:01

them. So it's totally maddening. And depending

4:03

on who you ask, the problem is

4:05

there's no competition or little competition, that

4:08

these are kind of local monopolies or

4:10

duopolies. To other people, the

4:12

problem is ineffective regulation, that internet

4:14

services may be a natural

4:16

monopoly product, like electricity or

4:18

something like that, and it should

4:21

be regulated like that. And generally, regulation

4:23

of internet service in the United States

4:25

has been poor to non-existent. And

4:28

I think there's some people who think

4:31

we should mirror the approach taken in

4:33

other countries, which is internet lines are

4:35

kind of publicly owned infrastructure. And maybe

4:37

you get private companies that

4:40

offer service, build service on top of

4:42

shared publicly owned internet lines. So for

4:45

whatever reason, we kind of have the

4:47

worst of all worlds. We have a

4:50

you know, basically private

4:52

market driven internet service

4:54

in the United States, that is kind of a

4:56

failure of free markets. But it's

4:58

also heavily subsidized by

5:01

the government. And

5:03

it's also a failure of sort of

5:05

government oversight and investment. It's amazing. It's

5:07

amazing to me that like we can

5:09

have heavy subsidies and high prices. Like

5:11

when do you ever get that? Healthcare

5:14

too. This is a lot of things

5:16

that we... Yes, exactly. Health insurance. The

5:18

model that I always thought made sense in

5:21

the United States is the one that you find quite a lot in

5:23

Europe, which is where

5:26

you do get private companies building out

5:28

those lines to

5:30

individual houses and owning

5:33

those lines. But then they have

5:35

something called local loop unbundling, which

5:37

means that absolutely anyone can offer

5:39

internet service over those lines. And

5:42

we're kind of seeing that now

5:45

in mobile telephony.

5:47

Like lots of different

5:49

brands are offering service over any

5:52

given network. Right

5:54

now, we I guess

5:56

care more about making

5:58

mobile accessible

6:01

than we do internet plans.

6:04

And maybe that's just the way

6:06

things are going. Kind

6:09

of internet isn't necessary anymore if you have

6:11

a phone, so why do we even care?

6:13

Well, we're here today to talk

6:16

about these new ISP nutrition labels.

6:19

That's the big news, right? I mean, that

6:21

would signify that there is some caring going

6:23

on this week after some

6:25

really long battle with the FCC

6:28

and the ISPs. Internet

6:31

service providers now have to actually

6:33

tell you how fast the

6:35

internet service is going to be, how much it

6:38

costs, what the extra fees are, all that kind

6:40

of stuff. And the very cute little nutrition labels,

6:42

they look like the food ones and they say

6:44

broadband facts at the top and all of this.

6:48

Does that signify, Shira, that something's changing?

6:50

Yeah, for sure. Something is changing. Just

6:52

to Felix's earlier point, there are many

6:55

countries, China and India among

6:57

them, the biggest countries in the world

6:59

by population, where home

7:01

internet service is not a priority where

7:03

the internet basically means the internet you

7:06

access on your phone. And

7:08

I don't think we're there in the United

7:10

States, but I think we do still have

7:12

this legacy of home internet and computers being

7:15

essential services, but we'll see if

7:17

that changes. And to

7:19

Felix's point about these broadband air quotes nutrition

7:21

labels, it took, depending

7:23

on when you start the clock, maybe 15 years

7:26

to get this done. And again, it

7:29

seems like a no-brainer that it basically

7:31

is a standardized list of information of

7:33

the kinds of things Emily talked about,

7:35

right? The monthly cost of service, if

7:37

you're on a promotional plan, okay, what's

7:39

the real number that you'll be paying

7:41

in a year or two years? All

7:44

kinds of fees that are sometimes hidden, right,

7:46

for renting a modem from your cable company

7:48

or things like that. And it

7:51

was remarkable. I talked to several, a bunch

7:53

of people this week about the broadband nutrition

7:55

labels and people who normally disagree about everything

7:58

involved in internet service over the internet. representatives

8:00

of giant companies and small

8:02

internet providers and consumer advocates,

8:04

they all agreed that these

8:06

nutrition labels are not perfect,

8:08

but useful for consumers and

8:11

really a win for transparency

8:13

in an industry where transparency

8:15

has been wildly lacking. But presumably

8:17

the giant companies are the reason

8:19

why it took so long because

8:21

they didn't want this, right?

8:25

Yes, I think large internet providers in the United

8:27

States fight literally

8:29

any single change that is

8:31

proposed to improve internet service

8:33

because they're happy with the status quo. And how

8:35

much of this is really driven by consumer rage

8:38

that what you pay for may not be

8:40

what you get? I can't think of another

8:42

product where you pay as much money as

8:44

you do for internet service and whether you

8:46

actually get the product is up in the

8:48

air. It is maddening. And you

8:50

can see that reflected in the

8:52

consumer satisfaction scores for

8:55

internet and phone service that people are

8:57

generally furious for all the

8:59

reasons that Elizabeth just said and many more

9:01

right that wait, I thought

9:03

I signed up to pay $60 a month.

9:06

And actually my bill is $100 a month or

9:08

they jacked up my bill by 40% and

9:11

there's nothing I can do because I don't have a I don't

9:14

really have a realistic alternative provider at

9:16

my address. And there's there's no better

9:19

service for that either. No

9:21

better service for that. You know, if you call

9:23

I think I would rather go to the

9:25

gynecologist than call my internet provider, right?

9:27

So it's just a terrible

9:30

customer service experience. The product

9:33

can be unreliable. My

9:35

internet service at home is generally good. But

9:37

I remember very distinctly when I was applying

9:39

for the job that I currently have the

9:42

Washington Post, there was one weekend when I

9:44

had a deadline to meet to apply for

9:46

this job. And one Saturday, the

9:48

internet just cracked out in my house, right? And

9:50

there was nothing I could do about it. I

9:52

had to go find free Wi Fi somewhere else.

9:55

But you know, that was extremely

9:58

anxiety producing and inconvenient. and

10:00

for me and there's really no recourse,

10:02

right? That if you're a

10:04

business customer and you lose internet service, you

10:06

get payments for that. You

10:08

have guarantees of minimum service and

10:11

home internet customers don't get those guarantees.

10:15

So who is the regulator?

10:17

Who is the government agency in charge

10:19

of making sure that we don't all

10:21

get ripped off and pay a fortune

10:23

for crappy service?

10:26

It's an interesting question because on paper,

10:29

the Federal Communications Commission regulates

10:31

internet service. But if you

10:33

ask some particularly Republican members

10:35

of Congress, the FCC

10:38

does not have oversight to regulate internet

10:40

service in the United States. And if

10:42

it's not them, it's no one. Oh,

10:44

no. So, you know, the

10:47

FCC is really a disempowered regulator and

10:49

it acts that way historically. And that's

10:51

one of the reasons it took 15 years for them

10:53

to come up with a nutrition label. For sure. But

10:56

Chira, I had a good experience,

10:58

I thought, with Verizon Fios, so I'll just

11:00

tell you what happened. Is this story

11:02

time with Emily Peck? Yeah. Everyone

11:05

gather around and I'll

11:07

tell you the story of our shaky

11:10

streaming. We've been watching, you

11:12

know, TV through YouTube TV. That's

11:14

a teaser for our next segment. And

11:16

it's been shaky. And I think even when

11:19

we're watching like football games or Super Bowl,

11:21

like it would just freeze up. It was

11:23

really annoying. And, you know, we

11:25

were just kind of like putting up with it. We

11:27

thought maybe our neighbors were also using Verizon Fios and

11:29

like, oh, this is just how it is now. I

11:31

don't know. And then one afternoon I said, you know

11:34

what, what if we just call and ask Verizon

11:36

Fios? So we called, we found the number,

11:38

not easy. We got through all the hoops,

11:40

like we had, you have to remember a

11:42

pin number. Why? I do not know. They

11:44

know who you are, you know? Why do

11:46

you have to have a pin number? Anyway,

11:48

got through all of it. Didn't

11:50

talk to a human being. Finally got on the

11:52

line with a robot who was like, what is

11:54

the issue? And I was like, our internet doesn't

11:56

work well. And they were like, we will check

11:58

your internet, the robot said. And the robot

12:00

was like, hang on. And it was like, beep, boop, beep,

12:03

boop, beep, boop. And then it came- I love that

12:05

they make little beep, boop, beep, boop, plows. And they're

12:07

like, this is the sound of a robot thinking. Boop,

12:09

boop, boop. I might be adding the

12:11

beep, boops myself. No, the beep, boop, beep, boop, beep.

12:13

They really do do that. How

12:16

would you know it's working if you don't hear people?

12:18

I mean, then you're like, oh, the robot is checking

12:20

things. And then the robot came back and

12:22

was like, we have found an issue. Hold

12:24

please while we fix it. And I was

12:26

like, oh my God, they're just going to

12:28

fix it? What is this magic? And

12:31

again, beep, boop, beep, boop, beep, boop. We

12:33

think we fixed it. And we were like, OK.

12:36

And then I hung up. And since then,

12:38

our internet has been a lot better. So I

12:40

thought this is a positive story. But

12:43

then I'm hearing feedback that if

12:45

they could have fixed it all along, why didn't

12:47

they? Why did I have to call, jump through

12:50

80 hoops, talk to a robot, et cetera, et

12:52

cetera? So is it a good story, a bad

12:54

story? It sounds like the hallmarks of an abusive

12:56

relationship. If somebody has been

12:58

in an asshole to you for a really

13:00

long time, and then they start being slightly

13:02

less of an asshole, you're like, oh, that's

13:04

nice. They're so nice. I just

13:07

had to ask. So Sheri,

13:09

can you just explain, on a conceptual

13:11

level, what would

13:13

be the incentive for

13:16

Verizon to wait for

13:18

someone to complain before fixing their service,

13:20

rather than just fixing all of the

13:22

service that is broken? It's a

13:24

good question. I mean, I don't want to put myself

13:27

in the position of Fios. But I

13:29

think the people who want there to be

13:31

more competitive options for internet service

13:34

would say, look, if you

13:36

have relatively little competition in providing internet

13:38

service, you don't have to make a

13:40

good product or offer a good customer

13:42

service. There's no incentive for you. There's

13:45

no upside to you to make service

13:47

available to Emily Peck's home on

13:50

a regular basis. Why not

13:52

wait for them to call instead of you

13:54

proactively fixing whatever the heck went wrong? I

13:57

do think that the first set of beep, boop, beep,

13:59

boops was a real

14:01

thing. When Emily said, like, I think

14:03

my service is bad, and they were

14:06

like, let's check that, and it took

14:08

them, I don't know, 15 seconds

14:11

or something to check it.

14:13

I think that was a

14:15

genuine test that was targeted

14:17

straight at Emily's house. And

14:20

it took 15 seconds and they were like,

14:22

yes, it's broken. And doing

14:24

that test for every single

14:26

house, every single day, just to

14:29

make sure that every single house is working okay,

14:31

I can see how that could add up and could be

14:33

expensive. And they wouldn't want to do that on a continual

14:35

basis. Yeah. And obviously, we

14:37

don't know where that what the problem

14:39

was, right? Were they restarting Emily's router

14:41

or something like that? Was the problem

14:44

on on at Verizon's infrastructure, right?

14:46

So that is something that, you

14:49

know, Verizon could and probably should have been

14:51

proactively monitoring their own equipment. So we just

14:53

don't know what the problem was on this

14:55

particular case. And the weird thing

14:57

was that the robot just didn't tell us. Yeah,

15:00

I don't think the robot told me the robots

15:02

just not forthcoming on such things. It wasn't

15:04

like we're sending you our analysis. And no,

15:06

there's no autopsy or anything like that. While

15:09

we are on this subject, you can

15:11

you also explain this whole question of what's

15:14

going on with subsidies? You did mention

15:16

that the government does spend quite a

15:18

lot of money subsidizing internet service. And

15:20

there's one in particular that isn't

15:23

being renewed or might not be renewed.

15:25

Yeah, there's a program that was

15:27

that was passed by Congress during the

15:29

pandemic, to basically provide

15:31

consumers some relief when all of us were

15:33

or many of us were stuck at home

15:36

and needing to access many

15:38

things over the internet. Called

15:40

it's called ACP. That's the shorthand. And,

15:43

you know, like many COVID

15:45

era, pandemic era, government spending

15:47

programs, there's sort of uncertainty

15:49

now about whether it should or might

15:51

be renewed with additional funds and the

15:54

way it's generally worked as households

15:56

who are eligible, lower income households who

15:58

meet eligibility requirements. requirements, they're getting

16:01

like a $30 a month or so credit on their bill. And

16:06

there's supposed to be these kind of

16:08

lower price plans that people can use

16:10

this money for. And the

16:12

money is basically running out and the Biden White House has

16:14

basically said, blamed Republicans in

16:16

Congress for not renewing this money.

16:19

And we'll see what happens. I just have no

16:21

sense of, particularly in this

16:23

Congress, they have a lot of priorities and not

16:25

much time left during the

16:28

session to do all the things

16:30

they want to do. And I don't know if ACP

16:32

is on their to-do list. If

16:34

I have any hope that things might get

16:36

better, I would say

16:38

that it is in wireless

16:41

internet services that companies like T-Mobile

16:44

are pushing quite aggressively. Just put

16:46

a wireless hotspot in your house

16:48

and get broadband that way. Does

16:50

that have the potential to provide

16:53

the level of competition necessary to

16:55

bring prices down more broadly? Maybe.

16:59

I agree with you that you can see in the

17:01

numbers that that service that's called

17:03

in the industry fixed wireless, which

17:05

as Felix said, it's basically home internet

17:07

service that's delivered over 5G mobile internet

17:10

lines. It's growing part

17:13

of the internet service market.

17:15

It's stealing market share from

17:17

traditional cable internet offerings. It's

17:19

been very disruptive. And

17:21

for some people, depending on where

17:24

you live and which direction your walls face

17:26

and things like that, that can be a

17:28

really good option for lots of people. But

17:32

there's just problems of physics. And the same

17:34

is true of Starlink, the Elon

17:36

Musk company that again,

17:38

beams internet service through satellites, that

17:40

it can be a great option for

17:42

people who in many cases live in

17:45

rural parts of the country and don't

17:47

have good alternative options, existing options for

17:49

internet service. So I don't

17:51

want to discount how important fixed wireless and

17:54

Starlink are to America's

17:56

future internet. But it's

17:58

not a, nothing is a fix

18:00

for. all problems. That there's problems

18:02

with physics, you're beaming internet from

18:05

space, right? There's some problems with

18:07

that. Anything that involves mobile internet

18:09

lines, you can see this in your cell

18:12

phone, it flakes out sometimes, right? Again, if

18:14

you don't face the right way, if you

18:16

live in an area like lots of trees

18:18

or buildings, it might not work right. So

18:20

it's not a solution for everybody, but it

18:22

is definitely good that because of these technological

18:24

changes, we do have more options

18:26

than we did even a few years ago.

18:28

I mean, you mentioned like rural

18:31

internet, and we definitely saw

18:33

this in the pandemic when suddenly everyone

18:35

needed internet at home and they were

18:38

like, I live in rural

18:40

Maine and my internet has always been shit,

18:42

but now I really need it. And the

18:44

local internet companies would say, your internet is

18:46

fine. And they're like, come here and you

18:48

can see that my internet is not fine.

18:51

And it strikes me that one of

18:53

the reasons why American internet

18:55

is so much worse and so much

18:57

more expensive than say Korean internet is

18:59

just a sheer density question. Like Korea

19:01

is just a much denser country. You

19:04

don't need to run nearly as

19:06

many miles of internet cable as you

19:08

do in America. Everyone in America is

19:11

so spread out that there's just a

19:13

lot more infrastructure necessary to reach everyone.

19:16

For sure. You know, the United

19:18

States, you're right, is a spread out country.

19:20

And that does make it more difficult both

19:22

to build internet lines and to make money

19:25

from internet lines, right? If you're in an

19:28

area where you might only have, I don't know,

19:30

1000 households and 10 miles,

19:32

that's less revenue for

19:35

the internet company or companies that are

19:37

offering you service and have to spend

19:39

to build out those lines. So that's

19:41

definitely an issue. The way that we've

19:43

addressed that or tried to address that

19:45

in the United States is by subsidizing

19:47

building of access lines, right? So again,

19:50

America does have these challenges of being

19:52

spread out. But the way

19:54

we try to address that is through taxpayer

19:56

spending, it's just that that money has not

19:58

been spent very effectively. historically. And

20:01

we're trying it again. The

20:03

Biden administration pushed and Congress passed

20:05

an infrastructure spending bill a

20:07

few years ago that's delivering tens

20:09

of millions of dollars through the

20:12

states to again build out internet

20:15

lines where it currently doesn't

20:17

exist and hopefully make service

20:19

affordable. So we're just going

20:21

to keep trying and hopefully one or

20:23

more of these solutions will improve

20:26

things. And I will say things are getting better

20:28

than they were at the beginning of

20:30

the pandemic for all kinds of reasons. What

20:33

about the dumb fees that these

20:35

internet companies lard on internet

20:37

infrastructure fee, network enhancement fee, that doesn't mean

20:39

anything. It's just a way to jack up

20:41

the price. Isn't the Biden administration going after

20:44

fees like that? Has it done anything in

20:46

this arena? Yeah, you're right. This is

20:48

all part of the junk fees push

20:50

that the Biden administration is working on.

20:52

And I think the broadband nutrition labels that

20:55

are starting to roll out

20:57

this week, that's part of it. You

20:59

know, they're, they're supposed to say very

21:01

clearly, we'll charge you $10 a month or whatever

21:03

$5 a month to rent a modem. If you go over this

21:05

self imposed

21:10

totally unnecessary cap of data usage

21:12

every month, we'll charge you an

21:14

extra 10 bucks.

21:16

You know, consumer reports has

21:18

found things like internet

21:21

companies labeling their own

21:23

self imposed junk fees

21:25

as that look like government taxes, and

21:28

they're not taxes, it's just a fee they have

21:30

chosen to charge you. So you know,

21:32

part of the idea of this nutrition

21:34

label, this broadband label is to force

21:37

the companies to stop

21:39

masking fees as something other than

21:41

what they are. Even if

21:43

they do that, you know, at 83 million Americans

21:45

have only one choice for broadband. I

21:48

mean, what real recourse does a consumer

21:50

who absolutely needs it for work or

21:52

whatever really have? Yeah, again, I think

21:54

that is one of the fundamental challenges

21:57

in a lot of people's minds

21:59

that the real The problem here is that

22:01

if you hate your internet provider, if they treat you like

22:03

crap, if they jack up your bill by 50%, a

22:06

lot of people don't have a choice. They

22:08

don't have a realistic alternative provider. And

22:11

so what incentive is there for your internet

22:13

provider to treat you well and to charge

22:15

you a fair price if you're a captive

22:17

customer? You should just all go off the

22:20

grid. For some net heads

22:22

and geeks, and that's what they call

22:24

themselves, the crash of America online left

22:26

them feeling lost in cyberspace.

22:35

So before we get to the break, I want

22:37

to tell you about our Slate Plus segment this

22:40

week because it's really good and we really dig

22:42

into AI. We're talking about

22:44

this great New York Times piece

22:46

that came out about a week ago about how

22:49

tech giants are harvesting immense amounts of

22:51

data for AI, particularly from YouTube. And

22:53

we kind of get into, like, is

22:56

this okay? Is this not okay? Is

22:58

it a copyright violation? What does it

23:00

all mean? Felix mentioned something about the

23:03

Habsburgs. So I mean, Slate

23:05

Plus members get to hear that after

23:07

the regular show. And if you're not a Slate

23:10

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23:12

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23:16

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of insurance. to

26:00

YouTube TV. This is a significant

26:02

chunk of change that you pay

26:05

over and above the amount that you pay for

26:07

your internet. Yes, we subscribe to

26:09

YouTube TV. I don't know how much it

26:12

costs because I don't do that bill. But

26:14

it was this year that they started showing

26:16

NFL games. And it was

26:18

a huge thing. I mean, YouTube

26:20

TV really took off this year. A lot of

26:23

people I know started paying for it because you

26:25

can watch multiple games at one time on your

26:28

screen. Very cool. Whoa.

26:31

Picture in picture technology. I

26:33

remember that. And it's, you know, it's

26:35

good. It's basically just like TV and you

26:37

can record stuff. And yeah, no, there were

26:39

no issues until, you know, I already mentioned

26:42

my streaming problems. But YouTube TV is great.

26:44

And Shira has a great piece out this

26:46

week that made me think about the

26:49

fact that YouTube is a media company. It's

26:51

not tech company. It's a big media company.

26:53

And it's eating the lunch of all the

26:55

other media companies that we're constantly talking about.

26:57

Yet we never talk about it. The

26:59

big insight, the thing that struck me

27:01

really was that if you compare the

27:04

size of YouTube to the

27:06

size of Netflix, which everyone thinks

27:08

of as the big streaming behemoth,

27:10

like Netflix is maybe half the

27:12

size of YouTube. Who just

27:15

came out and said YouTube? We had this

27:17

a couple of weeks ago, that YouTube as

27:19

a standalone offering would probably be worth

27:21

400 billion dollars. That's like

27:23

way more than Netflix. Yeah, I think

27:25

Michael Nathanson at Bernstein Research and at least

27:27

one other analyst had some numbers like that.

27:29

Right. It's a, you know, hugely valuable

27:32

company inside of Google.

27:34

It strikes me as also one of the

27:36

great M&A deals of all

27:38

time. Google bought YouTube for what was it

27:40

like just over a billion dollars. They had

27:43

this terrible offering called

27:45

Google Video, which they were trying

27:47

to make happen. And like most

27:49

Google built social networks, it

27:52

was terrible and no one used it.

27:54

And then they're like, okay, well buy

27:56

YouTube. Then they really incorporated

27:58

YouTube deeply into the ecosystem,

28:00

it learned a lot about users

28:03

and the personalization

28:05

algorithm became very sophisticated and

28:08

they did a huge amount of things

28:10

that a standalone YouTube could never have

28:12

done. So Google added a

28:14

massive amount of value to YouTube

28:16

in much the same way that

28:19

Disney did a

28:21

bunch of things with Star

28:23

Wars that like Lucasfilm might not have been able

28:26

to do on their own. And

28:28

so it's the perfect M&A deal, it's the

28:30

perfect acquisition where you have like a really

28:32

great core business which you

28:34

can then add to by being bigger and

28:36

more powerful. I thought you were

28:38

going to say Facebook buying Instagram because that's

28:40

a lot. And Facebook buying Instagram as well. Yeah, Instagram would

28:43

not be the power that it is today if it wasn't

28:45

owned by Facebook. And both of these

28:47

cases, you know, these were very early transactions,

28:49

especially in the realm of

28:51

video and things like that. Shera,

28:54

do you think that part of the reason why it's

28:56

not as apparent to people that YouTube

28:58

is the behemoth that it is, is just because

29:00

it's been around for so long and you know, it's

29:02

easy to look at things like TikTok

29:05

and imagine them as being much bigger because of

29:07

the novelty and the extent to which you see

29:10

young people using it? Yeah, I think

29:12

that's a great question. I mean, maybe it's

29:14

just that YouTube, you know, it has been

29:16

around forever and we treat it like furniture

29:18

or like infrastructure, right? It's just the thing

29:20

that's there anytime you need to, whatever,

29:23

look up how to change

29:25

a flat tire or you're

29:27

looking for new music or

29:29

restart your cable modem. Restart

29:31

your cable modem. YouTube is

29:33

just there, right? And maybe

29:35

that it kind of blends into the background.

29:38

But just to Elizabeth's point about the popularity

29:40

of YouTube, if you look at Pew Research

29:43

surveys of Americans, YouTube is

29:46

by far, by a country mile, the

29:48

most widely used social app among both

29:50

adults and teens in the United States.

29:52

Like all the talk about teens on

29:55

TikTok. If you look at the numbers

29:57

by tens of percentage points.

30:00

YouTube is more widely used than TikTok among

30:03

teens. Is it a social app? Yeah,

30:05

I mean, it's a fair question, right? And I

30:07

think YouTube always says we're not a social network,

30:10

but it kind of gets lumped in with sort

30:12

of Instagram and TikTok and Facebook and the like.

30:14

Well, they now have this very

30:16

TikTok-ish product called YouTube Shorts, which

30:18

really is indistinguishable from TikTok. Yes,

30:21

and they've pushed Shorts very hard.

30:23

It's like impossible not to open the YouTube

30:25

app and not see Shorts. So if

30:27

TikTok is a social app, then YouTube

30:29

is a social app at this point.

30:32

Well, I think at this point, it's also,

30:34

you know, what Felix was saying

30:36

about the integration into the Google

30:38

ecosystem, it's the second most popular

30:40

search engine. And that's

30:42

responsible for the way a lot of

30:45

people just fundamentally understand reality, you know,

30:48

Googling or looking for things on YouTube.

30:50

And of course, it has

30:53

a built-in, uncomputeable advantage when it

30:55

comes to SEO. Like you search for anything,

30:58

YouTube results are gonna be right at the top of

31:00

the page. I wonder why Google would do that. But

31:03

I think of it as just a

31:05

pure media company. Streams videos, streams music,

31:07

it's a media powerhouse and worth more

31:09

than all, than Netflix. I think Peter

31:11

Kafka had, it's worth, if you take

31:13

Netflix, Add in Paramount, Warner Brothers

31:16

Discovery and Fox, you would

31:18

have a company with a market cap

31:20

of around $300 billion, that's

31:22

still less than YouTube. Yeah, and

31:24

again, if you look at it, YouTube

31:28

on TVs is the most popular streaming

31:30

destination in Americans living rooms. YouTube is

31:32

by far the most popular way. People

31:34

listen to music globally, right? Not Spotify,

31:36

not the radio. Not Spotify. YouTube,

31:38

that's how we both discover new

31:41

music and listen to existing music. And

31:44

it's a way that lots and lots of

31:46

people earn real income, right? That all the

31:49

influencers or creators or whatever you

31:51

wanna call them, they're basically many

31:54

media empires. And

31:56

a lot of them are on YouTube because that's,

31:59

YouTube is very. is

32:01

unique among internet companies in

32:03

sharing their advertising and subscription revenue

32:05

with the people who make the content.

32:08

It is also like the one thing we

32:10

don't like to admit here in Podcastville is

32:13

that it is by

32:15

far the most popular way by which

32:17

people listen to podcasts. More popular than

32:19

Apple Podcasts, more popular than Spotify. People

32:22

listen to podcasts, including Slate Money, on

32:24

YouTube. We run

32:27

ads for podcasts, we're like, where have you got your

32:30

podcasts? Yeah, that means

32:32

YouTube more than any other place. If

32:34

you look at all of the podcasts that have

32:36

really taken off in the past few years, maybe

32:39

not all of them, but the vast majority of

32:41

them, they over index

32:43

massively to YouTube. They're very visual podcasts.

32:45

They spend a lot of time caring

32:47

about their thumbnails and how they look.

32:49

There's a lot of visual production design.

32:52

That's been driven by the fact

32:54

that YouTube is a podcast

32:57

platform, is the podcast platform. I

32:59

have a theory about that that

33:01

says people are more engaged parasocially

33:03

if they can see you and hear you. But I

33:06

can't just sit still and listen to a podcast. I

33:08

would go crazy. I don't really get it at all.

33:10

I think people have it on in the background. They

33:14

put it up on YouTube on

33:16

their TV screen while they're... Yeah, listen to your podcasts

33:18

on your TV. You don't do that, Peck. Hard

33:22

enough getting it to work, so no. And

33:26

one of the reasons we is

33:28

kind of flown beneath the radar

33:30

is because Google has historically just

33:32

refused to break out numbers for

33:34

it. And so no one really

33:36

knows how big it is. But

33:39

I think one of

33:41

the big surprises to me is

33:43

the degree to which it's been

33:45

successful at persuading people to pay

33:47

cash money for YouTube. First of all,

33:50

like there was the sort of pay

33:52

off a few bucks and we'll stop

33:54

showing you ads, which I can kind of

33:56

see that as a value proposition.

33:58

But then they moved on. moved aggressively into

34:01

a much more, much higher

34:03

priced product that Emily has, which is, you

34:05

know, pay us like $75 or $100 a

34:07

month and we'll replace your TV. And it's

34:10

like, I'm paying that much? Yeah.

34:12

And again, if you, Peter Kofka wrote about

34:14

this, right? If you look at the numbers,

34:16

YouTube TV is the maybe third or fourth

34:19

most popular cable television service in the

34:21

United States now, right? So it's

34:24

big. I mean, it's way better than when I

34:26

had cable. I remember having cable and it was

34:28

terrible. And this would seem pretty seamless and easy.

34:30

No, no one had to come to my house

34:32

to set it up, which is huge advance. And

34:34

can you use your remote control to change the

34:37

channel? No,

34:39

I have to. Of course. How else would

34:41

you change the channel? I don't know how these things

34:43

work. Like for me, it's just like, it's a stream

34:45

from the internet. How do you change the channel on

34:47

the way to the remote control? It's an

34:49

app, you know, you, you go in and

34:51

you see the channels and what's on. The

34:55

wonders of modern technology, like Felix, at some

34:57

point, Felix is going to learn what a

34:59

television is and my mind is going

35:01

to get blown. Do you not own a television set? I

35:04

do own a television set, but

35:06

I don't I haven't subscribed to

35:08

linear TV in 20 years. So

35:12

your cord cutter, you've cut the cord. I cut

35:14

the cord back in like, yeah,

35:16

the 1990s sometime. How do

35:18

you watch football, Felix? I'm just kidding. We all know

35:20

he doesn't watch football. I

35:25

thought color TV. RCA Victor color TV.

35:29

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38:43

Shira, how much am I going to pay for

38:45

my next toothbrush? I

38:48

wrote recently about

38:50

a $400 Oral-B electric

38:52

toothbrush. I'm

38:56

making air quotes with AI,

38:59

with artificial intelligence. I

39:01

noticed it because Mark Benioff, who's the

39:03

CEO of salesforce.com, and a

39:05

man who is basically Mr.

39:08

Hype, including Mr. Hype for

39:10

AI, he posted on

39:12

X about seeing this

39:14

toothbrush in the wild and basically said,

39:16

this is sort of peak AI hype.

39:19

So you know when Mark Benioff thinks

39:21

this is way too much, that

39:23

this toothbrush has really gone too far.

39:26

What exactly was the AI supposed to

39:28

do in this toothbrush? Look,

39:31

I tried to talk to Procter & Gamble,

39:33

which owns the Oral-B brand, and he said,

39:35

can you tell me exactly what is

39:37

in this that is artificial intelligence? Because

39:41

it seemed to me like it's a sensor. It

39:44

promises that it detects how long

39:46

or how often you brush in

39:48

what areas of your mouth. That

39:52

to me didn't seem like artificial intelligence. It

39:55

just seemed like we have sensors. It

39:58

gives you a report based on those sensor readings. I

40:00

got an email from somebody who said

40:03

they are involved in Proctor & Gamble R&D

40:05

that said, yes, there's patents behind this and

40:07

it really is artificial intelligence. So I do

40:10

not know. I can just tell you that

40:12

Proctor & Gamble on the record would not

40:15

say anything specific about the technology behind

40:17

this toothbrush. I do love the idea

40:19

that consumers might be willing to

40:21

spend $400 on a toothbrush just because

40:25

it has the word AI on the package.

40:27

I do think that's

40:29

clearly false though. For all of the

40:31

AI hype out there, I haven't seen

40:33

a lot of evidence

40:36

that consumers are willing to pay for

40:38

it. The amount of people paying for

40:40

chat GPT is just a very small

40:42

number of early adopter nerd types. There's

40:45

been reporting this week that

40:48

Apple is going to be building these M4

40:50

AI chips into all of its new MacBook

40:52

Pros that are coming out at the end

40:54

of the year. Everyone

40:57

is like, oh, are people going to get excited about that

40:59

and buy this new computer because

41:01

it has an AI chip in it? Everyone is looking

41:03

at each other going, yes, no.

41:05

Why would they? Is

41:09

there anything yet which is this

41:11

consumer facing application of AI that

41:14

people have been shown to be willing to pay for? I think

41:16

like many technological

41:19

changes or phases, the

41:21

real money is probably going to be made

41:24

in selling the stuff to businesses and not

41:26

to consumers. We'll see

41:28

what happens. I was at a dinner this

41:30

week with some tech executives and one of

41:32

them said, the real place where

41:34

people are paying for AI and it's

41:37

having an impact is in customer service

41:39

functions. You can imagine if you're

41:41

a company, if you're Fios, you

41:43

spend a lot of money on this cost center

41:45

of customer service. It's not bringing you revenue in

41:48

many cases. If you can

41:50

automate that with hopefully

41:52

good AI, that's a

41:54

significant cost savings and that's worth spending

41:56

money on. The same executive also said

41:58

all the tech companies and other kinds

42:01

of companies, they're spending tons and tons. I

42:03

mean, I can't even tell

42:05

you billions, maybe trillions of dollars, investing

42:07

in building their AI capabilities.

42:10

He said, in

42:12

terms of ROI, there's a lot of I and

42:14

not a lot of R right now, meaning that

42:16

the return on investment is minimal to

42:19

none. Don't you think part of that is just the

42:21

market ban for investors? Puts

42:24

pressure on consumer-facing companies to add

42:26

AI to anything. It almost seems

42:29

very similar to the

42:31

Internet of Things peak hype,

42:34

where anything that you could possibly own needed

42:36

to be connected to the Internet. It's

42:38

exactly the same as every hype cycle. Yes, exactly that.

42:40

It's just, we will seem cool

42:43

and forward thinking if we are

42:45

into AI. And so what

42:48

you get is just, I mean,

42:50

I literally keep a list of

42:52

what I refer to as AI

42:54

Juicero, named after the ridiculous, nowadays

42:56

Silicon Valley over-engineered

42:58

juicer. That's basically

43:03

ridiculous uses of AI that cost a

43:05

lot of money and seems to have

43:07

almost no value for consumers or businesses.

43:09

And on that list are things like

43:11

Google made a big deal about a

43:14

Hellman's mayonnaise app that I

43:16

think gives you mayonnaise

43:19

recipes. I don't remember. Who knows? But I

43:21

was like, why do you need AI for

43:23

that? Literally, the best thing, the Internet

43:26

has basically solved recipes. They've made all

43:28

of the recipes you could ever want.

43:31

And why does AI, why is AI needed

43:33

for this? A bunch of fast food restaurants

43:36

are now talking about AI. So I

43:38

saw an executive of YEM Brands or

43:40

one of the other fast food chains

43:42

talking recently about all the ways they're

43:45

adding AI to their restaurants, including

43:48

things like somebody in

43:51

a fast food restaurant could

43:53

ask a chatbot, what's the

43:55

appropriate oven temperature for

43:57

this particular, to cook this particular food. And

44:00

I thought why? You know what I

44:02

mean? Like somebody could tell you the right temperature

44:04

You could write it down in a manual or

44:06

a digital manual that you can search. You could

44:09

look it up on YouTube You could

44:11

look it up on YouTube There's just so many so many

44:14

use cases that I've seen for AI

44:16

that just sort of seem like Answers

44:19

in search of a problem like overly

44:21

engineered overly expensive answers in search of

44:23

a problem Okay, the one

44:25

the one use of AI that I

44:27

have genuinely been excited

44:29

about which I've seen in the

44:31

past couple of weeks is

44:33

that Zillow will

44:37

take a look at all of the photographs of a

44:39

house and ingest them into

44:42

an AI and generate a floor plan

44:44

and so like floor plans have always

44:46

been a Weakness outside New York

44:48

City if you want a floor plan of a

44:50

house No one really has one to hand building

44:53

one is extremely expensive measuring everything and getting someone

44:55

to draw it But now it seems that they can

44:57

generate one street just by looking at all the photos

45:00

and sort of working it out from that I think

45:02

that's awesome. I think that like yeah, there were a

45:04

few of those but they are good the

45:06

one place I have seen Real

45:09

revenue from AI the one headline I saw

45:11

is that apparently? Accenture the

45:14

consulting company has had a billion dollars

45:16

of AI revenue in six months And

45:19

is that from their clients basically saying we

45:21

need an AI strategy? Here's all this money

45:23

to help us come up with a strategy

45:25

exactly. Yeah, yes I

45:27

see all this useless people are trying

45:29

to just throw AI into anything and

45:31

it's useless I think

45:33

this is just kind of what happens when you have a

45:36

new technology We just it

45:38

takes time to evolve it

45:40

to find the consumer product that is

45:42

going to be the revolution Like it

45:44

took time to get to the iPhone

45:46

and get to apps and you

45:48

know at first the internet was cool But it's like who

45:51

cares and you went to like ask Jeeves

45:53

But then Google happened and you were like,

45:55

oh I get it now. I get it

45:57

more and like it just It's just

46:00

It takes time for people to play around with this

46:02

tech and to figure out the consumer uses because the

46:04

people who invent the tech aren't thinking

46:06

like that. It just takes

46:08

a lot of time and so you're going

46:10

to have dumb stuff like AI toothbrushes or

46:12

the Internet of Things. Yeah, the stupid will

46:15

get weeded out. But I will say that

46:17

I've been through multiple cycles of new technology

46:19

and the stupid phase is

46:21

pretty stupid this time around.

46:24

I'm fascinated Emily that

46:26

you remembered Ask Jeeves

46:28

because that was really

46:31

the whole point of

46:34

it was put a question in

46:36

a box and we will give you the answer.

46:38

In a natural language. That's what we've

46:41

always wanted. It only took 25 years

46:43

before we actually worked out how to do that. Yes,

46:46

and eventually probably like Google probably goes away

46:48

the way we're used to it with returning

46:51

you all the links and it's a mess

46:53

and every you know we've talked about this

46:55

and then eventually we do have AI revolutionizing

46:58

the way we use the Internet and all of that stuff. But

47:00

in the meantime, it's just a lot

47:02

of dumb stuff. It already is in many ways,

47:04

but you know AI is not new and I

47:06

think part of the reason why there's so much

47:09

dumb hype around it is that most people can't

47:11

distinguish between different types of AI and

47:13

there's an assumption that you

47:16

know whatever AI is in your toothbrush is

47:19

something approaching general AI where you

47:21

really have a borderline cineant robot

47:23

telling you how to brush your

47:25

teeth and you know

47:27

most of our technology that already

47:29

has AI and has for years

47:32

has a kind of different type

47:34

of AI that really is more

47:36

about optimizing algorithms. So you

47:38

know machine learning natural language processing none of those

47:40

things are new, but the

47:42

issue is I think with chat GPT people

47:45

suddenly have a consumer facing example of

47:47

a bot that conforms to everything that

47:49

they've ever seen in a sci-fi movie

47:52

and I think that's part of why you know

47:55

the hype cycle is what it is. If

47:57

you think about the voice.

48:00

hype cycle which was never particularly hyped but

48:02

when everyone started it was very high to

48:05

Alexa but when people started talking to Alexa

48:07

and Siri and that kind of thing that

48:09

is all AI that is all generated

48:12

by machine learning algorithms and

48:14

you know we are now using those we're not using

48:17

them as much as we had

48:19

been hyped to believe that we would be

48:21

using them but it seems to be finding

48:23

its niche in the in the sort of

48:25

techno universe but I do want to talk about

48:28

basically the the current poster

48:30

child for AI the large language

48:32

models and where they're finding

48:35

their data and whether any of that was

48:37

legal so that I think we are going

48:39

to talk about in Slate Plus but before

48:41

we get to that we should

48:43

have a numbers round and

48:46

Elizabeth I believe you have a number I

48:48

do your my number is five hundred thousand

48:50

and that's euros and that's how much you can

48:52

pay for a golden visa in Portugal so

48:55

now it's a thing that people are

48:57

building what they call passport portfolios and

48:59

getting multiple passports in multiple countries so

49:01

that they can kind of take advantage

49:04

of an arbitrage on the

49:06

exit fees that you have to pay if

49:08

you're actually going to change your citizenship and

49:10

also you know there are some people who are

49:13

just Peter Thiel types you want a New Zealand

49:15

residency in case the apocalypse happens but a lot

49:17

of people seem to be viewing

49:19

it also as just a you know a

49:21

new tax strategy and hedging to

49:23

be clear this is this does not

49:25

reduce the tax payable by US citizens

49:27

US citizens have to pay tax on

49:30

their global income no matter what other

49:32

citizenships they have no matter where they

49:34

live yeah but the exit tax that

49:36

I'm talking about is when you renounce

49:38

your citizenship in the US and yeah

49:40

well when you and the exit tax

49:42

for announcing your US citizenship the one

49:44

that you know as well as sovereign

49:46

famously paid is absolutely

49:48

enormous and makes no financial

49:50

sense basically if you renounce your

49:52

you your US citizenship you have to pay

49:55

a lot of money a huge amount of

49:57

money the US government basically

49:59

says you're not going to be paying us

50:01

taxes for the rest of your life, so you have to

50:03

pay us all of the money that you would pay us in

50:05

taxes for the rest of your life. Go off America. Also,

50:09

wait, if it's the apocalypse, do

50:12

you really need a passport? It's the

50:14

apocalypse. You know what I mean? It's

50:17

all on the table. It's all off the table. Who

50:19

cares? I guess if you assume

50:21

that the US is the most likely failed state

50:23

situation, it's more of a localized

50:26

apocalypse, but I don't know

50:28

how to say that. Is the US the most

50:30

likely failed state? The crazy people, the preppers. The

50:34

Portugal story is interesting though. There

50:36

was this big push, I think

50:38

starting around 2012 or

50:41

thereabouts for Portugal. They were like,

50:43

let's get lots of high-tech people to

50:45

move to Portugal and invest in the country and

50:47

they'll get inward investment and that kind of stuff.

50:51

It became incredibly popular. This

50:54

is back when you could do it just by

50:56

buying a house basically in Portugal. It

50:59

became incredibly popular to the point at

51:01

which it just pushed house prices out

51:03

of reach for actual Portuguese people. You've

51:05

seen this in New Zealand as

51:07

well. The local population turns against

51:09

these schemes pretty quickly and they

51:11

wind up sunsetting. Emily,

51:14

what's your number? My number is

51:16

$1 million. It

51:19

is an estimate to mention

51:21

Peter Kafka again that Peter Kafka came up with

51:24

for the amount of money a man

51:26

named David Patton has made

51:30

on the song that goes. Let's see

51:32

who knows that. Oh,

51:35

oh, oh. It's magic, but

51:37

instead of it's magic, it's...

51:41

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

51:44

oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, an

52:00

immense earworm ever since I learned about this. It's

52:02

been in my head and I think part of

52:04

the reason, I mean, most of the reason Ozempeg

52:06

is popular is because you lose a bunch of

52:08

weight when you take it. So Americans like that.

52:11

But the song really, really hits. They

52:13

used it, they licensed it. To make the

52:16

jingle, it became really popular. And then they

52:18

had this guy go into the studio and

52:20

actually record it himself. So

52:23

he's maybe made a million dollars just

52:25

from this all happening to him now,

52:27

which I guess is a dream for

52:29

an older musician. I

52:31

have this theory that like the

52:33

reason why Americans have incredibly high

52:37

internet costs is

52:39

somehow related to in

52:41

some obscure way to the fact

52:44

that America is also the only

52:46

country that advertises drugs. Oh, okay.

52:51

I've been in this country for what, 28 years

52:54

now at this

52:56

point, 27 years. And I still don't

52:58

quite, I still can't quite get my

53:00

brain around. People advertise drugs, people advertise

53:03

hospitals. Like what? People

53:05

advertise public high

53:08

schools on the telly.

53:11

Yeah, it's the whole thing. It's a huge business for

53:13

musicians. I mean, streaming, you know, you

53:15

don't make as much money these days.

53:17

It is like the dream. The dream

53:19

isn't like playing a stadium or having

53:21

a gold album or whatever. It's

53:23

having a drug ad. Yeah,

53:26

brilliant. An earworm drug ad. An

53:28

earworm drug ad, wow. Common side

53:31

effects are nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, stomach

53:33

pain and constipation. Some side effects

53:35

can lead to dehydration, which may

53:38

worsen kidney problems. My number is

53:40

$380 billion. This

53:45

is the amount of money

53:47

the IMF estimates has flown

53:49

into China since

53:52

about 2018 or so, just

53:55

as a result of index

53:57

changes. So, MSCI

54:00

and FTSE Russell, they

54:03

started including Chinese shares

54:05

in their big global

54:07

indices. Bloomberg Barclays, the

54:09

big global ag bond index

54:11

started including Chinese bonds

54:13

in their big index. There's

54:16

the Russell World Government Bond

54:18

Index, which also included China.

54:20

And because so many people are

54:22

passive investors and so many people are benchmarking

54:24

these indices even if they're not, even if

54:26

they're active investors, all

54:28

trillions and trillions of dollars

54:31

wound up getting benchmarked to China in one

54:33

way or another. And so $380 billion actually

54:36

flowed into China. As

54:39

a result, just like a bunch of index

54:41

designing technocrats changing their weights.

54:44

Shira, what's your number? My

54:47

number is 70 billion and

54:50

that's the average number of times

54:52

YouTube Shorts videos are viewed

54:55

every day according to Google.

54:58

70 billion. It's a number that is so large.

55:01

I have checked multiple times with

55:03

Google. Did I mishear

55:05

this number? How is this number

55:07

possible? But that's a real number, right? Which

55:09

shows you, you know, if YouTube has

55:11

billions of users on a regular basis.

55:14

So YouTube Shorts is a global

55:17

thing. It's not just an American thing. There's

55:19

no way that you could get that just

55:21

from America, right? Yes, great point. And obviously

55:23

they loop, right? So like TikTok videos, so

55:25

you might watch one and

55:27

then it counts as multiple views. But that is

55:29

wild. 70 billion a

55:31

day. A day, on average. That's 10 videos

55:34

per human being on the planet per

55:37

day. It is an insane number. And

55:39

look, we don't know what YouTube counts

55:41

as a view, right? All these internet

55:43

companies have these fungible metrics, but

55:46

still it's a lot of either

55:48

computers or humans clicking on

55:50

videos. How many humans on the planet

55:52

do you think Interact

55:55

with YouTube Shorts on a daily

55:57

basis? What percentage of the global

55:59

population? It's gonna be. It's gotta

56:01

be at least a billion people. So

56:03

if it's a billion, if it's a

56:05

billion people and they're doing seventy billion

56:08

view today than the than the typical

56:10

person interacting with you tube sure to

56:12

be viewing seventy of these per day.

56:14

Yeah, that doesn't seem possible, doesn't know.

56:16

And like this wild. It. Is

56:18

wild. How does that

56:20

compare? Like Tic Tac Instagram when? As yet

56:22

again, it's hard to know if these numbers

56:25

are comparable, right? Because. It

56:27

Again, these are all fungible metrics. or to my

56:29

knowledge, I don't think either Tic toc or Instagram.

56:32

He gives a comparable number of how many

56:34

times they're. Pieces of content or videos

56:36

are viewed on a daily basis. You tube

56:39

started doing that I assume because the numbers

56:41

are bananas large. To be fair, like seventy

56:43

billion. Views. For days. Pretty

56:45

much what we gotta excuse.com the mountains

56:47

of my stories alone. usually. Yeah, so

56:50

many listeners. We have a man. yeah.

56:52

Also that and that. Okay

56:54

I we are going to have

56:56

a sleepless on l a lamb's

56:58

hoovering up information from you tube

57:00

which they probably weren't allowed to

57:02

do that's coming up, but. If

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