0:07

A few months ago, journalists chasing Kevlar had

0:09

some friends over to his house and in

0:12

the middle of conversation he went to look

0:14

something up on the internet. On

0:16

a search engine. I searched on

0:18

Cocky which is not Google and they

0:21

saw my screen in the like what

0:23

the hell is that Like: Why what

0:25

are you doing Because. They.

0:28

Were just they had never seen the

0:30

site before essentially. What? Is cocky,

0:33

Cocky is a

0:35

Google competitor. It's

0:37

an alternative search engine and it costs

0:40

ten dollars a month to use and

0:42

I've been using it for three months

0:44

and I have essentially forgotten that I

0:46

use it because it just worked so

0:48

well it I don't even think about

0:50

it. In.

0:54

My opinion: Jason is one of

0:56

the best tech journalists working today.

0:58

He's a cofounder of the Independent

1:00

Tech Journalism site for Oh For

1:02

Media, and his experience trying to

1:04

get for force articles picked up

1:06

on Google is part of his

1:08

frustration with the search engine. They.

1:10

Are not really on google news

1:12

which. I. Previous jobs.

1:15

Was. A huge driver of traffic

1:17

for us. And we

1:20

started noticing that our articles

1:22

are being scraped by ai.

1:24

And. They were being republished on

1:27

these really? Like. Very Spare

1:29

Me Web sites like a I

1:31

versions of our articles with just

1:33

like. Tiny. Changes. And.

1:36

We were noticing that many of these

1:38

web sites were getting indexed by Google

1:40

News and her ranking above us on

1:42

google. And. So we

1:44

just started writing about how this was happening

1:47

in and. Sort. Of going down

1:49

this rabbit hole and realizing that

1:51

Google is not surfacing results that

1:54

I wanted to see just as

1:56

a user. In the story

1:58

that you wrote about this. There's a tons

2:01

that stuck out to me. You.

2:03

Say I'll probably never switch

2:05

back to Google and less

2:07

cocky become significantly worse. Or

2:09

Google reverses years of annoying

2:11

interface and search decisions that

2:14

are prioritized. Add sponsored results,

2:16

family affiliate content, and a

2:18

I generated result. Giving

2:22

it fair to say that you think

2:24

google sucks now. I

2:26

personally think that Google such. no. I

2:29

don't like using it and I think a lot

2:31

of other people feel that way because we been

2:33

writing a lot of articles about how google. Results

2:36

or worse for feel like they're

2:38

getting worse is it feels to

2:40

me like a frog getting boiled

2:42

situation where I just use google

2:44

without thinking about it for many

2:47

many many years and I looked

2:49

up one day nozick and finding

2:51

any website want to see. If

2:57

you're creeping sense that Google search

2:59

is getting worse, you're not alone.

3:01

Today on the show we're going

3:03

to explain why I'm was Yomiuri

3:05

and you're listening to what Next

3:07

Tbd a show about technology, power

3:09

and how the future. Will be

3:12

determined. Stick around. I'm

3:23

gonna be up front. For the

3:25

last year or so I've had

3:27

this kind of in college sensation

3:29

that Google search is getting worse

3:31

that my searches were returning more

3:33

ads are shopping links but not

3:36

the actual information that I wanted.

3:38

But. Of course, searches so individual.

3:41

I didn't know that was just me. Jason

3:43

says that's what makes this such a

3:46

thorny issue. Despite the fact

3:48

that I think that google sucks

3:50

though, I think it's like a

3:52

really hard seeing to talk about

3:54

because everyone's Google results are very

3:56

different. And that's by design

3:59

because google. No. So much

4:01

about you. It is targeting

4:03

you with ads and a specific way

4:05

and is tracking around the internet and

4:07

through all the Google products in a

4:09

specific way. But I do feel like

4:11

people have a creeping sense that. The.

4:13

Results that they're getting. Or

4:16

worse, And I think

4:18

that this is not entirely Googles

4:20

fault. I think that this

4:22

is a problem that the entire

4:25

internet is dealing with and a

4:27

problem that every social platform is

4:30

also dealing with. which is the

4:32

rise of a I generated content

4:34

is legitimately a hard thing to

4:37

combat because it has made it

4:39

really easy for people to discrete

4:42

sewage amounts of content. Or

4:44

that is artificially generated and published

4:46

on a wordpress blog, are published

4:48

on a website or published on

4:50

Twitter or Facebook or whatever. and.

4:53

google. Is going to index that

4:55

content in some way. And

4:57

then it needs to figure out how to rank it

5:00

in some way. This phenomenon

5:02

isn't just vibes, It's backed by

5:04

research. Earlier this year,

5:06

a group of German researchers

5:08

released a yearlong study titled

5:11

is Google getting worse? Their

5:13

conclusion was mostly yeah, They.

5:16

Analyze seven thousand, three hundred and

5:18

ninety two different search terms. Across

5:21

Google being and duct duct go

5:23

over the course of a year.

5:25

And. What They found His quote.

5:28

Higher. Ranked pages are on average,

5:30

more optimized, more mana ties with

5:33

affiliate marketing, and they show signs

5:35

of a lower test quality. We.

5:37

Find that only a small portion of

5:40

product reviews on the Web Use affiliate

5:42

marketing, but the majority of all search

5:44

results do. This is like just like

5:46

Spare Me stuff that wanted to buy thanks.

5:49

It is but a lot of it is coming from.

5:52

What? People would probably consider to

5:54

be high quality but sites. Consider.

5:56

This example from the site House Fresh.

5:59

Dot Com. Which is an independent.

6:01

Product review sites. It does actual

6:03

product testing. Which adds validity to

6:06

it's reviews, but Google doesn't seem

6:08

to care about that As House

6:10

Fresh outlined in a recent article

6:12

called appropriately How Google is Killing

6:15

independent sites. Like ours. If

6:17

you'd do something like search or

6:19

with Best Air Purifier you will

6:21

see that that all the top

6:24

results are from sites like Forbes

6:26

A Real Simple or People. Are.

6:28

Rolling Stone. Like Rolling Stone is

6:30

recommending air purifiers which is nominally

6:33

you know a music site and

6:35

I think that the you fantastic

6:37

journalism. But. Because making money

6:39

and journalism is very difficult and there's

6:42

only of are a few ways to

6:44

do it, many sites has started adding

6:46

a lot of affiliate links and what

6:48

these are just links that go to

6:51

like Amazon or places that you can

6:53

buy anything online and every time so

6:55

by something through one of those links

6:58

they get you know a few pennies

7:00

or sometimes more than that. And so

7:02

a lot of sites have started to

7:04

think spinning up teams that produce a

7:07

bunch of content about. sort of

7:09

thing. And the main argument

7:11

of this house. fresh. Article

7:13

is that. A lot of

7:15

the sites are not actually testing the

7:17

products that they are. Recommending.

7:20

But because these sites have been on

7:22

the internet for so long, they have

7:25

a lot of authority with Google and

7:27

so they are breaking really high when

7:29

you search for the for it, even

7:32

if even if they're not trying the

7:34

air purifier for example, You're

7:37

getting at this kind of chicken

7:39

and egg phenomenon though. Things show

7:41

up high on Google or any

7:43

big ad. Revenue. Driven

7:45

search engines. Because there's a

7:48

whole industry of people who know

7:50

how to make things. And

7:53

Up api the you search engine optimization

7:55

to make things. Gonna pop

7:57

up in those results and. It

8:00

feels like and we you know just like a little

8:02

circle that we're going around and here. I've.

8:05

Spent fifteen years professionally writing

8:07

articles for the internet and

8:09

at every place that I've

8:11

ever worked as Ceo has

8:13

been important and so this

8:16

stuff like a line very

8:18

well with good journalism. It's

8:20

like used names of people

8:22

afraid. The article and like

8:24

link to your sources and things

8:26

like this. Ah, But then there's

8:28

also a lot of other things

8:30

that humans. May. Not like

8:33

but Googles algorithm does like.

8:36

Which. Is you know it's like

8:38

subtitles? Ah if you are

8:40

looking for a recipe. The.

8:43

To give ranked high on Google. you

8:45

often need the recipe to have a

8:47

lot of key words and to have

8:49

like the of a certain length and

8:51

so this is why when you go

8:53

to address besides you will often read

8:56

like a person's life story before they

8:58

actually tell us around us. and I

9:00

am not a i don't write recipes,

9:02

I don't cook their. This is like

9:04

a very controversial topic in the recipe

9:06

world because some people like that sort

9:08

of thing but other people just want

9:10

to see the recipe and. The

9:13

reason that all of these sites have

9:15

in a really long stories before they

9:17

get into the recipe is because they're

9:19

doing search engine optimization and they're trying

9:21

to retire on Google. Is it just

9:23

Google or. You. Know. Did

9:26

saying and.that though whatever also

9:28

fall into the stop. Being.

9:30

Inducted go do both fall into

9:32

this trap. I think that. We.

9:35

Focus On Google because we use

9:37

Google. Everyone uses Google and it's

9:40

like being has not really taken

9:42

much of the market. Like if

9:44

you actually look at the numbers,

9:46

it's still. A couple percentage

9:48

points of all searches go through.

9:50

Being. So the vast majority

9:53

of As Ceo is targeted

9:55

at the algorithms and pupils

9:57

were conducting and ranking system.

10:02

We reached out to Google for comments,

10:04

and a spokesperson told us that the

10:07

Germans study looked at narrowly at product

10:09

review content. And it doesn't reflect

10:11

the overall quality and helpfulness of

10:13

search for the billions of queries.

10:15

We see every day. She

10:17

added that numerous third parties

10:19

have. Found Google to be of

10:22

significantly higher quality than other search

10:24

engines and are advanced. Spam fighting

10:26

systems keep ninety nine percent of

10:28

searches spam free. When we identify

10:31

areas for improvement, we take that

10:33

work. Seriously. When.

10:37

We come back on the show How Ai

10:39

makes all of this more. Complicated because

10:41

of course, and us. Let's.

10:52

Talk about this ai bloat issue

10:54

for for. Your organization reported that

10:56

Google News is. Boosting.

10:59

Some. Of this weird kind of a

11:01

i generated content in it's results.

11:03

Tell me about what. You guys faint.

11:06

Yeah, so I have a Google

11:08

alert for for for media. So

11:10

anytime anyone mentions for a for

11:13

Media I get an email and

11:15

a link to it. And soon

11:17

after we started publishing articles. I

11:19

kept getting google alerts and. Weird.

11:22

Sites that I had never heard of that

11:24

were. Mentioning or in

11:27

some cases linking to us.

11:29

And. So we did this like

11:31

really difficult article about how child

11:33

sexual abuse material was being included

11:36

in this really popular A I

11:38

model. know that under that underpins

11:40

like tons of the Ai tools

11:42

that are used today and this

11:44

is something that we actually spent

11:47

like over a year on. and

11:49

talk to a bunch of different

11:51

researchers about how to even report

11:53

this because it's so difficult and.

11:56

One. Day after we published it,

11:58

there was an art. Oh called.

12:01

They. Delete a database to train

12:03

a i Generative Images to contain

12:05

child sexual abuse material which is

12:07

not even remotely English. ah on

12:09

a site called Nation World News

12:12

which when I clicked on it

12:14

they had to stolen our article

12:16

for really run it through some

12:18

sort of ai. Tool.

12:21

And it had a million ads on it. And

12:24

it was ranking higher than us on

12:26

Google and it was indexed by Google

12:28

News and our article that we spent

12:30

all this time and resources doing was

12:32

not was not on Google News at

12:34

all. The what does that tell

12:36

you about what Google is prioritizing wet

12:38

weather consciously or not. Well. I

12:41

think it tells us that the

12:43

people who are spending of the

12:45

A I Spam sites know a

12:47

lie and care a lot about

12:50

as Ceo and what Google is

12:52

looking for. And we are journalists

12:54

who are just trying to write

12:56

articles where humans writing articles for

12:59

other humans and v not optimizing

13:01

every aspect of our article so

13:03

that and algorithm pick it up.

13:06

But the people who are doing

13:08

this with a I are optimizing.

13:10

Better than us and Google is rewarding

13:12

them for that. I think

13:14

that google is fighting a very

13:17

difficult battle here because. I

13:19

mean the business model of these Ai sites

13:21

is. Get. Listed get ranked

13:23

on Google trick people into clicking

13:25

the people leave, but there's shown

13:28

a bunch of ads before they

13:30

leave and they collect pennies and

13:32

hope that you know that he's

13:34

for what they're doing. In

13:38

response to our questions, the Google spokesperson.

13:40

Said quote. We take the quality

13:42

of our results extremely seriously and

13:44

have clear policies against content created

13:46

for the primary purpose of ranking

13:48

well on his, and we remove

13:50

the sites that violate it. A.

13:55

Lot of these Ai sites are based outside

13:57

the U S where it's a lot cheaper.

14:00

The spin up a new website

14:02

and publish lots and lots and

14:04

lots of stuff using a I

14:06

models something that's basically impossible for

14:08

humans. Jason site is

14:11

run by humans. Four. Of

14:13

them. And. We publish.

14:15

Two or three articles the day

14:17

and were very productive journalists like

14:19

were incredibly productive journalists. but we're

14:22

competing against a I generated sites

14:24

that are publishing articles like every

14:26

two to three minutes, twenty four

14:28

hours a day. My god, and

14:30

one person is running that probably.

14:32

Ah, and they're just doing it

14:34

all through a I because and

14:37

on actually researching reading the articles,

14:39

they're just generating them or ripping

14:41

them off or doing a mix

14:43

of both. And so Google does

14:45

prioritize. You know, sites that publish. Of

14:48

Sin and if you're publishing few

14:50

hundred articles the day that are

14:52

a I generated damn Mm rank

14:55

higher than a human run site

14:57

that. Is. Only publishing one or

14:59

two or three articles a day. Listening.

15:02

To you say all of this it

15:04

seemed. So clear

15:07

that there is such a

15:09

strong argument against using Google

15:11

for search And yet. google.

15:14

Owns this wide swath

15:16

of. The market share for

15:18

search. Most. People

15:21

are still using it as their

15:23

default search engine. I don't know

15:25

if there is a way. To.

15:29

Untangle, That. We

15:32

already have so many Google products baked

15:34

into our lives. Which.

15:36

Makes me wonder. Is

15:38

there some breaking point in which consumers

15:40

would revolt? Or we'd trapped. I

15:44

think that we're trapped. Despite the

15:46

fact that I'm using kaji. It's

15:48

like kaji is actually. A

15:50

search engine that. Aggregates results

15:52

from a bunch of other search

15:55

engines and then ranks them. so

15:57

it's like reliance on google. as

15:59

well. Oh wow, so it's hard to, even

16:02

when you're trying to escape. I've

16:04

tried to escape a bunch of other Google

16:06

products before because I've reported on Google for

16:08

a long time at At Look For Alternatives

16:11

for a long time. I switched from Google

16:13

Maps to Apple Maps a few years

16:15

ago and I was biking around New York

16:17

City using Apple Maps and it tried to

16:19

put me on the beach. huey which the

16:22

highway. Oh yeah, that's the hands I was

16:24

like. cool. I'm switching back to Google

16:26

because Apple Maps tried to kill me. I

16:29

stopped using Chrome for a while and

16:31

I was using other browsers and then

16:33

I would run into a site that

16:35

would only work with Chrome that I

16:38

needed to years. and rather than like

16:40

run this complicated existence where I was

16:42

switching back and forth between browsers, I

16:44

just switch back to Chrome. I can't

16:46

really imagine leaving email or google docs

16:49

as like my entire digital ice sort

16:51

of intertwined with this company. and I

16:53

think that's the case for a lot

16:55

of people. I mean, I'm staring at

16:57

a Google doc of. Crap. But

17:00

you know notes for this interview. That

17:02

was sent. To. My

17:04

email. I'm reading it on chrome. How.

17:07

Did we? Get. So dependent on

17:10

one company. Able

17:12

is similarly a frog getting

17:14

boiled. Situations where. The. Products

17:16

works so well together. it's I

17:18

got. It's a vertically integrated now.

17:20

I'm funny where you know if

17:22

you use Gml it's like why

17:24

are you have to email I

17:26

might as well download Chrome. Chrome

17:28

has Google built into it like

17:30

it's just easier for for people

17:32

to deal at the same time.

17:35

There. Is this gravitational

17:37

pull that Google has.

17:40

That. Is not fully organic.

17:42

It's like Google pays Apple

17:44

billions of dollars to make

17:46

Google the do default search

17:48

engine on I phones, for

17:51

example. And like a lot of

17:53

the others are attack monopolies that we've

17:55

seen. A lot of it is sort of like.

17:57

Default stuff that. Then

18:00

on devices that you by which

18:02

the Justice Department has some thoughts

18:04

about. The Justice Department has some

18:06

thoughts about and there are various

18:09

antitrust cases on going against. Many.

18:11

Tech giants at the moment and it's sort

18:13

of remains to be seen by will happen.

18:16

Ah I'm skeptical that will see any sort

18:18

of like. Real. Breaking apart

18:20

of these companies. But.

18:23

I also don't know what that looks like

18:25

at this point. Like. I think that

18:27

it's pretty difficult to break them up

18:29

because. They're. So intertwined. Like

18:31

all the products are so intertwined.

18:33

At this point. Google is

18:36

facing to big lawsuits from the

18:38

federal. Government one over it's search

18:40

engine. Which will continue in May

18:42

and another over it's and Practices

18:44

which goes to trial on September.

18:47

The. So let's go back to search

18:49

because. You keep talking

18:52

about the frog being fully boil

18:54

the water and the thing I

18:56

can't stop thinking about is really

18:58

the fundamental business model thing. If

19:00

your business is based on advertising

19:02

and Google is the people and

19:04

companies are gonna do all sorts

19:06

of things to end up at

19:08

or near the top of search.

19:10

You're going to have a i'd

19:12

driven shum that wants a slice

19:14

of ad revenue at and so

19:16

it feels like. I

19:18

don't know. There is a pollution of

19:20

pure search right from the jump, right?

19:23

this is. This was never a. Empirically.

19:26

Satisfying experiment where you would absolutely

19:29

just get the best. Search. Results:

19:32

Yeah. I mean, as Ceo has

19:34

existed forever since Google existed and

19:36

there's been a couple really good

19:39

articles on the verge that have

19:41

blamed As your from essentially ruining

19:43

the internet is it was never

19:45

a pure experience. The reason that

19:47

I left Google and that I've

19:50

been using comedy is simply because

19:52

it's not even that and that

19:54

much of a moral stance. Really,

19:56

it's that I tried this other

19:58

thing and I was oh wow,

20:00

I'm I'm actually finding web sites

20:03

that are interesting and that are

20:05

relevant to my search. Every time

20:07

I tried to leave Google. The.

20:09

Thing that I tried was

20:11

worse and in this case

20:13

corgi which specifically can down

20:15

ranks. The. Sites you're

20:18

describing it like analyzes how many

20:20

ads and how much of a

20:22

a site's content is ads and

20:25

it down ranks them and like

20:27

punishes tactics that are traditional search

20:30

engine engine optimization techniques and I

20:32

just realized after using it for

20:34

three months I looked up another

20:37

our haven't really like. Been.

20:39

Mad about my search results for a long

20:41

time? I I'm just like finding the stuff

20:43

that I want to find and there's not

20:45

a bunch of sponsor results at the top.

20:47

And there's not an Ai that's trying to

20:49

answer my question when I really just want

20:52

to find a link. To so here

20:54

we are the new no. Tail. End

20:56

of that conversation talking about how crappy

20:58

all this stuff feals and is. Is.

21:01

There any way to make a change. For.

21:03

Many years that are, other companies

21:05

that I work for were incredibly

21:08

reliant on Google and incredibly reliant

21:10

on social platforms to reach audiences.

21:13

And as sort of like the

21:15

entire internet has become a big

21:17

algorithm of our feed their algorithmic,

21:19

it's become a lot harder to

21:21

reach people through these platforms. and

21:23

I think that when you go

21:26

back to things like direct email

21:28

to people who have signed up

21:30

for the email that is like

21:32

a humans human interaction, person to

21:34

person interaction and texts and things

21:36

like that I think have already

21:38

started to replace a lot of

21:40

he social networks that we used

21:42

to use. Of time for that.

21:44

We still use overtime but are

21:47

increasingly polluted and I think that's

21:49

a solution is more of oil

21:51

A like human to human. Hey

21:53

check this out. Situation vs. Scrolling

21:56

through received that is. Content.

22:05

Eight And thank you for your reporting

22:07

and for coming on the shelf. Think.

22:12

Jason Kevlar is a cofounder of Four

22:14

O Four Media. He's also the co

22:16

host of the Four O Four Media

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podcast that she should check out or

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a that is It for. Our show

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today What next? C B D is produced

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by Mm Camel, Anna Phillips and Patrick Stewart.

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Or show is. Edited. By Page Osborne

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believes among Comrie, his Vice President of

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it will be back on Sunday with

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another episode. And was yomiuri sexual

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a thing?