0:01

Before we get started, a warning for anyone

0:03

with kids in the room. We'll be talking

0:05

about recreational drug use. There's also

0:07

some light cursing in this episode. Okay,

0:09

let's start the show. Back

0:17

when I was in my 20s, if my friends

0:19

and I took mushrooms to psychedelic kind,

0:22

we'd be at a Grateful Dead concert or

0:24

at the beach or some other fun venue.

0:27

But in Oregon these days, there's another way to

0:29

take a strange trip. And

0:31

it's run by the state government.

0:34

It's called Oregon Psilocybin Services.

0:37

So people can go to these service

0:39

centers, as they call them. Basically

0:43

a facility where a trained person

0:45

will sit with you over

0:47

the course of a six to eight hour

0:49

trip. You can have

0:52

your psilocybin adventure and

0:54

then you have a debrief meeting with

0:56

them afterwards to talk about what happened.

0:59

That's Jane See Who. She recently

1:01

wrote about the emerging legal psychedelics

1:04

industry for The Atlantic. These

1:06

different centers all have slightly different vibes. I

1:08

think for the most part, they try to

1:10

make them feel really homey and comfortable. So

1:12

you aren't just feeling like you're in a

1:15

doctor's office doing shrooms. So it's

1:17

a place you go to when

1:19

you want a shroom. Exactly.

1:23

And the interesting thing about

1:25

Oregon is that anyone can

1:27

go. Basically, if you want to have a shroom

1:29

trip, there's a state

1:31

legal way to do that in Oregon. Oregon

1:39

decriminalized drugs back in 2020. Back

1:42

in the day, the idea of

1:44

state sanctioned psychedelic trips seemed to

1:47

borrow some hippie terminology pretty far

1:49

out. But with weed now legal

1:51

in so many states, the calls to do

1:53

the same for psychedelics are growing louder. There's

1:58

just one problem. According to

2:00

Jane, almost no one is happy with the

2:02

way weed was legalized. While

2:04

some states have made it easier than

2:06

ever to purchase cannabis for recreational use,

2:09

the industry behind it is not

2:11

exactly thriving. It's rife with

2:13

inequities and soaring costs. And

2:16

the legal psychedelics industry seems to be

2:18

going down the same road. I

2:21

think a lot of people feel like this is

2:23

feeling familiar to them. With

2:25

cannabis, we had, you know, in the 70s, states

2:28

starting to consider lowering

2:30

their punishments

2:33

for possession of

2:35

marijuana, starting to decriminalize

2:38

marijuana. Then in the 90s,

2:41

you started getting medical programs.

2:44

In the 2010s, you started seeing recreational

2:46

programs. And with psychedelics,

2:48

it's kind of interesting because there are

2:51

so many states that are doing all

2:53

of those things at once. So rather

2:55

than having like, you know, a

2:57

wave of decrim, a wave of medical

3:00

marijuana, a wave of recreational, it

3:03

feels like with psychedelics, it's just going

3:05

on all fronts right now. So

3:08

would you say that the legalization

3:10

process with psychedelics is going better so

3:12

far than it did with marijuana or

3:14

is it just going faster? It

3:17

might just be going faster. It does

3:20

seem like a lot of the folks who are working on psychedelics

3:22

also worked on cannabis. And

3:24

from talking to those folks, it seems like

3:26

people are really thinking about, well, what went

3:28

well with cannabis? What didn't go well with

3:30

cannabis? And how do we learn

3:32

from that? So

3:37

today on the show, psychedelics are

3:39

getting legalized. We've

3:41

been here before with cannabis. Can

3:44

we do better this time around? I'm

3:46

Emily Peck filling in for Lizzie O'Leary and

3:48

you're listening to What Next TBD, a show

3:50

about tech, power and how the future

3:52

will be determined. Stick around. Before

4:09

we sort of dig into what's happening now, can we

4:11

just go back in time a little bit and

4:14

you can kind of give listeners a sense

4:16

for how legalization kind of began? You

4:19

mentioned it started in the

4:21

70s with some decriminalization efforts.

4:25

Yeah, so some folks might

4:27

have heard of the Controlled

4:29

Substances Act, which was passed

4:31

in the 70s under Nixon

4:34

that essentially classified different

4:36

drugs. And so

4:38

marijuana, as well as psychedelics,

4:40

were classified as Schedule I drugs, meaning

4:43

that they had high potential

4:45

for abuse and no medically accepted

4:48

use. And so

4:50

as students that passed,

4:52

basically, there were states like

4:54

California that were already looking

4:57

to try and pass their

4:59

own decriminalization efforts so that

5:01

they could at

5:04

least have access to it in the state or

5:06

have lower penalties for it that kind

5:08

of went against federal law. And

5:12

in the 90s, I think especially

5:14

with HIV AIDS in the

5:16

conversation, there were a lot of

5:18

efforts to make medical marijuana

5:21

available to people. And that

5:23

spread steadily over the next couple of decades. And

5:25

then really, it was the 2010s that

5:27

we saw the first states trying

5:29

to roll out recreational programs. Right

5:33

now, 24 states have legalized cannabis for

5:35

recreational use and even more allow it

5:37

for medical use. But weed is still

5:39

illegal at the federal level. And

5:42

this patchwork situation creates a lot

5:44

of confusion. That's kind

5:46

of an issue with the state by

5:48

state approach is that it's state

5:50

by state. So everyone's got to do their

5:52

own thing. And it's really hard to know what's going

5:55

on, even for people who are paying

5:58

attention. I think people are confused. about

6:00

the state of legality because a

6:03

lot of folks, if they have a

6:06

source of receiving marijuana,

6:09

they are pretty

6:11

likely to stay the course because that's just kind of

6:13

the path of least resistance. And folks,

6:16

unless you're kind of a policy wonk, don't

6:18

always know exactly what is legal in their

6:21

state. Before you could

6:23

just get weed at a store, buying

6:25

cannabis like any illegal activity was risky,

6:28

even dangerous. A

6:31

lot of people were locked up, imprisoned

6:33

because of this drug. Now,

6:35

in some states, buying weed is like picking

6:38

up a six pack. It's accessible, safe,

6:40

and easier than ever. And

6:43

you don't feel like a criminal doing it. So

6:46

I asked Jane, what's the problem with

6:48

legalization? Sure,

6:50

there are some people who might be happy with it

6:53

or who might be excited that they can buy weed. But

6:55

if you're looking at the actual rollout of

6:58

the program as a whole, it definitely

7:00

has equity problems for one. Some of

7:02

the more recent stats are unfortunately from

7:04

2017, but

7:06

showed that a lot of the folks

7:08

who were this commercially most affected by

7:10

the war on drugs, specifically black folks,

7:13

Latinx folks, there are

7:15

like single digit owners

7:17

of cannabis businesses, people

7:20

of those races. People are

7:22

concerned that this piecemeal, state

7:24

by state process has kind

7:26

of created a mess in

7:28

that it does

7:31

not really motivate the

7:34

federal government to do anything

7:36

that might create a more

7:38

unified system and

7:41

reduce some of that confusion. And

7:43

also, I think a lot of folks are

7:47

honestly just disappointed that

7:50

there isn't really any

7:52

medical research currently showing

7:54

anything about how cannabis can

7:57

be used as treatment. even

8:00

though there are medical marijuana programs

8:02

available, the actual evidence

8:05

is still scant just because people

8:07

aren't putting the money in. And

8:10

I think that there's some

8:12

concern that we're dashing the opportunity

8:14

to actually study this drug more. The

8:18

business of legal weed is not a thriving

8:20

one. In states where recreational

8:22

cannabis is allowed, big corporations

8:24

dominate the industry, while smaller entrepreneurs

8:27

struggle to break through a high

8:29

cost of entry. And

8:31

since weed is still illegal at the federal

8:34

level, banks often won't work

8:36

with people in the industry, effectively locking

8:38

these businesses out of the traditional financial

8:40

system. This leads to

8:42

varying costs for both the businesses and

8:45

the consumers. For instance,

8:47

in Oregon, often there are huge

8:49

surpluses, which is really great

8:51

for the consumer in that you can buy super

8:53

cheap weeds, but it's not so great for

8:55

the growers because they just have an excess of

8:58

product across the state and they have to sell

9:00

it more cheaply than maybe they would want to.

9:02

And I know that in other states, the

9:05

prices are high enough that folks are

9:07

just turning to the black

9:09

market or the underground because

9:12

it's like they have their weed guy and

9:14

their weed guy has been

9:16

pretty consistent and don't have to deal with

9:18

the overhead of running a business and

9:20

state regulations. And so I guess

9:22

one other thing on the lack

9:25

of federal buy-in that is

9:27

an issue for the state

9:30

cannabis businesses is that

9:32

because selling marijuana is still

9:35

federally illegal, these

9:37

folks who have cannabis businesses can't

9:40

write off usual business expenses.

9:43

And so folks are concerned

9:45

that that is going to further

9:48

reduce who can really even get into this business and

9:50

afford to stay in it. I mean,

9:52

a lot of these inequities are, they

9:54

just sound so familiar. They're like the

9:56

kind of things that you encounter

9:58

in most businesses. right? Like

10:01

people of color, black people, Hispanic

10:03

people, have more

10:05

hurdles to owning businesses, things

10:08

like that. It's kind of an interesting

10:10

thing going from the black

10:12

market to a more regulated market. You

10:14

get like new, corporate-y

10:18

type problems. Totally. Yeah.

10:20

And then there are folks

10:22

who kind of hate the corporate side of

10:25

it too, right? And I think this kind

10:27

of plays into this basis of not

10:29

everyone is happy. I think folks

10:31

feel weird

10:33

that you can

10:36

go into like a really slick

10:38

little store and pay maybe

10:40

more than you did before for

10:43

weed. And I mean, I guess

10:45

also the same thing is happening for psychedelics in

10:47

that folks are really

10:49

split on how they feel about all

10:51

these various avenues for accessing it.

10:54

But I mean, some folks, they say, I

10:57

don't want to go to a service center.

10:59

Like being watched during a trip sounds

11:01

like the least one thing imaginable. And

11:03

so, you know, some folks just want

11:07

heat trim where they are like, I just want

11:09

to grow my mushrooms in peace and do them

11:11

in peace by myself. But then, you know, you've

11:14

got regulators, folks at the state level, folks at

11:16

the federal level too, who are like, yeah,

11:19

like, sure. But there are real

11:21

safety issues with just letting people

11:24

do that potentially. It depends

11:26

on the drug, depends on how much you take, of course,

11:29

always been a problem. But,

11:31

you know, I've talked to folks who

11:33

have lost kids from, you

11:35

know, not having proper harm

11:38

reduction or education about this type of stuff.

11:40

And I mean, I think earlier

11:42

in my life, I might have been like, well, you know,

11:44

like so many of us just basically

11:47

fucked around and found out. But

11:49

I don't know that that's necessarily

11:51

the best way to go about it either. So it's

11:54

a really tricky problem in that folks have all

11:56

sorts of different opinions about it. And it's

11:58

a real careful balance of. how much

12:00

regulation and what kind, and

12:03

no one's gonna be perfectly happy in the

12:05

end, but trying to figure out the right

12:07

thing to do is tricky. When

12:12

we come back, how the push for legal psychedelics

12:15

could be different. 2020

12:25

was a big year for drugs.

12:28

In Oregon, voters overwhelmingly approved a

12:30

ballot measure to decriminalize the possession

12:33

of small amounts of hard drugs,

12:35

including fentanyl, heroin, cocaine, meth,

12:38

and psychedelics. The

12:40

measure included new investments in addiction

12:42

treatment and support services, and

12:44

was heralded by drug reform advocates. But

12:47

three and a half years later, public sentiment

12:49

has started to shift against the legislation. The

12:52

Oregon legislature recently introduced a

12:54

bill that would essentially undo

12:56

the decriminalization from 2020. But

12:59

Jane thinks that psychedelics aren't the focus here.

13:02

It feels somewhat unlikely that

13:04

psychedelics are going to be what

13:06

get prosecuted in this situation. It

13:08

really feels like that's maybe more

13:10

a way that

13:13

the state wants to reclaim some

13:15

ability to prosecute people for fentanyl use

13:17

and try and get ahold of that drug

13:19

problem. And I mean, I think with psychedelics,

13:21

it's always kind of been the case that who

13:24

actually gets prosecuted, who

13:26

actually faces consequence for use

13:29

or possession is very

13:31

dependent on socioeconomic status and

13:33

race and lots of other

13:35

things. So I

13:37

don't know that we can expect to be a

13:39

huge amount of change there, but it does feel

13:42

like an interesting contradiction that in

13:44

a state where you have a full

13:46

up and running silo-sizing services program,

13:49

you might also technically have

13:51

it be a criminal offense

13:53

to use silo-sizing again. So

13:55

it seems like just hearing you kind

13:57

of parse this out bit

14:00

complicated. It seems like we're headed down

14:02

the same road with psychedelics as

14:05

we were with cannabis. A

14:08

little bit. And I mean, I think it's

14:10

interesting because we've been with

14:13

psychedelics in this big hype bubble.

14:15

People for many years were really

14:18

excited about the potential for psychedelics.

14:20

Just a lot of

14:22

excitement about the possible medical use

14:24

of it as therapeutic stuff, just

14:27

the possibility that it could become

14:30

more widely available for recreational

14:32

use. And I think we are

14:35

really hitting the point where that hype

14:37

bubble might be bursting a little bit and

14:39

folks are starting to think about what

14:42

that functionally looks like in your community. If

14:45

we're ready for that as a society, it

14:47

still has a lot of stigma to overcome.

14:49

And I think people sometimes, especially

14:52

folks who are kind of involved in that

14:55

world, forget that there are still

14:57

plenty of people who are quite

15:00

uncomfortable with that kind of

15:02

open drug use. I

15:04

was listening to an interview where an

15:06

Indigenous man was talking about how

15:09

psychedelics have been used

15:11

for hundreds of years among his

15:13

people. And it's weird to think of

15:15

them becoming run by the government

15:19

and corporatized. Is there

15:21

a way to address these concerns in

15:23

legalization? Are people talking about

15:25

it or thinking about it? People

15:27

are talking about it and thinking about it for sure.

15:30

Whether anything is functionally changing

15:32

is an open question. And I

15:35

think that is a really important

15:37

conversation to have. I

15:39

think that, yeah, a

15:42

lot of people are really uncomfortable with the

15:44

idea that you could

15:47

only access it through medical means, for

15:49

instance. There are some folks who, like

15:51

you mentioned, Indigenous people who have been

15:54

using some of these substances for

15:56

some time in memorial as

15:58

part of the The erroneous

16:01

and. Those folks. In.

16:03

Some cases. ah, You.

16:06

Know fight, have access, Through.

16:09

Like religious exemption. So for instance,

16:11

like the Native American Church allowed

16:13

her to access the Ot by.

16:16

It's tricky. I mean, there's also the

16:18

question of even just folks who have

16:21

been working in the Underground for decades.

16:23

I'm so. Here. We talked about this

16:25

Oregon. Site with that hidden program

16:27

that. Be. Regulated program

16:30

Set of. Rules

16:32

for what facilitators asked

16:34

him. To. To go

16:37

through training if it will sit with people

16:39

during their trips. And it.

16:41

In some cases you know, like folks over doing

16:43

this for decades or like yeah are you know

16:46

the sounds like. You my really have

16:48

to pay for like a several thousand

16:50

dollar training and then pay for like

16:52

a several thousand dollar license in order

16:54

to do what I'm already doing but

16:57

just been a legal way through the

16:59

legal program. It seems like on

17:01

one hand going state by state was

17:03

legalization is a way to sort of

17:05

incubate a lot of different ideas and

17:07

like it's a great like trial and

17:09

error process. Seat.

17:12

Do think that's right. Like is

17:14

that the best way to. To

17:17

be cautious and deliberate about

17:19

legalization. Yeah. I

17:21

mean I don't know that there's any other

17:24

way I play like. Either way it feels

17:26

like are some people who are charging ahead

17:28

who are like you know, let's. Throw stuff

17:30

at the wall v Wednesday and if

17:32

it breaks and will fix it. Up

17:34

and then there are other people who are like. That.

17:37

Is unacceptable. We need to think

17:39

through every possible scenario. And make sure

17:41

this is really safe. And. Ready to roll

17:43

out for. One. Area

17:45

where psychedelic differ from cannabis is

17:47

in medical use. While. There are

17:50

a few specific medical programs for cannabis.

17:52

There's little evidence of how can be

17:54

used as a treatment. But.

17:56

the pharmaceutical industry see sent a deluxe

17:58

as a potential treatment for serious

18:00

mental health issues. Recently,

18:03

the FDA accepted a new

18:05

drug application from a company

18:07

called Lycotherapeutics for MDMA to

18:09

treat people with post-traumatic stress

18:11

disorder. This application that

18:13

was put in, I

18:15

think right at the end of last year, the

18:18

FDA went back to them

18:20

and said, we're going to fast track your

18:23

application and we'll tell you by August

18:25

whether or not we agree that

18:27

you should get FDA approval for

18:30

MDMA to treat PCSDs

18:32

specifically. MDMA, which some

18:34

people might know as MALI

18:36

or ecstasy back in the day, it

18:40

is a psychedelic that is

18:43

kind of neck and neck with psilocybin, I think,

18:45

in terms of people's

18:47

excitement and the amount of research that

18:49

has been done on whether it

18:51

might be able to treat mental health issues. But

18:54

yeah, it feels like if that FDA

18:57

approval for MDMA happens, that

19:00

is going to really force

19:02

some federal changes potentially.

19:04

So some folks have wondered

19:07

whether that means that

19:10

what are all of MDMA

19:12

is going to be rescheduled

19:14

from schedule one to a

19:17

lesser restriction. Some folks

19:19

think that it might

19:21

not be all of

19:23

MDMA that gets rescheduled. It might only be

19:25

the specific type that

19:27

was put forth by this company.

19:30

But if MDMA,

19:33

even just the kind that the

19:35

application was put in for, is

19:37

rescheduled, I do think that that

19:39

kind of opens the door for

19:42

other folks to say, well, clearly,

19:45

if the definition of schedule one is that

19:47

it has no medically accepted use,

19:49

then the government's ruling on this feels

19:51

like it is at odds with its

19:53

own previous ruling. So

19:56

what are we going to do about that? Does the

19:58

drug have to have a therapy? Cute! It used

20:01

to be decriminalized. I'm in Canada.

20:03

Started out people saying you know

20:05

it actually has medical you you

20:07

know medical purpose and now you

20:09

here again with psychedelic Flight Keys

20:11

to treat Ptsd. We can use

20:13

a to treat anxiety and that

20:15

offer the good like I'm home

20:17

for treating those things however we

20:19

can. But I mean. Can.

20:22

We just leave the less psychedelic. Because

20:24

they're fun. And. Relatively

20:26

harmless. If you're asking me, I

20:29

think that as a. Good enough. Or even

20:31

as imam. They're definitely advocates and folks

20:33

ever work in a space for a

20:35

long time to think that. People.

20:37

Should have access to any kind of for a

20:40

while. And that is that. It

20:42

fast if that is the case. There.

20:45

Are more chances to have those drugs

20:47

and to make sure that they're safe.

20:50

And regulated. So. That people

20:52

hopefully are not. You know,

20:54

suing things and drugs and tired. Of.

20:58

However, not everyone thinks that way, and

21:00

I think that. Honestly,

21:02

The Medical. Or

21:05

therapeutic angle. says. Better with

21:07

people. I think it feels more convincing

21:09

the some corners of the world

21:11

where people are a little reticent to

21:14

endorse drugs years of any I and

21:16

especially drugs. That how's. The.

21:18

Decades and Demonize have.

21:21

Been scrambling or of.

21:24

Amanda thinking about like Rachel the. Cooks

21:26

of. As that

21:28

I saw the kids that. Compared.

21:31

Her brain to a scrambled egg. If

21:33

you did drugs, this is your brain.

21:37

This is drugs. Browns

21:45

worse for. This is a

21:47

lot of sigma the contend with and. Making.

21:49

The argument that be as drugs. Might be

21:52

able to help people who are in real

21:54

pain that I'm. Who don't have

21:56

great treatment for for their illness?

21:58

otherwise? except folks are

22:00

like, why not give this a shot? Well,

22:08

Jane, thank you so much. Thanks for

22:10

having me. Jane

22:13

C. Hugh is a journalist and the author

22:15

of the newsletter, The Microdose. And

22:17

that's it for our show today. What Next

22:19

TBD is produced by Evan Campbell, Anna Phillips,

22:22

and Patrick Ford. Our show

22:24

is edited by Paige Osborne. Alicia

22:26

Montgomery is vice president of audio for

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up. We'll be back next

22:42

week with more episodes. I'm Emily

22:44

Peck, and you can catch me every Saturday

22:46

on SAIT Money. Thanks for listening. I'm

22:59

Emily Peck, and you can catch me every Saturday