0:01

This is Hear Me Out. I'm Celeste Headley. There's

0:04

a lot to dislike and distrust

0:06

about the American healthcare system. We

0:09

know about disparities in care quality,

0:11

in the ability to access care,

0:13

and in education about health. The

0:16

anti-vax or vaccine skeptical movement is

0:18

growing faster than ever in the

0:20

modern history of vaccines. And

0:22

a lot of us have a hard

0:24

time dredging up any sympathy for those people.

0:27

But what if they're responding to the

0:29

frustrations and fears that we all

0:31

have about medical care? For

0:34

all of us, it's important to speak

0:36

from a place of empathy and try

0:38

to understand. It's not just the characterizations

0:40

that we see in the news, or

0:42

it's not just the worst case scenario

0:44

that we think of when we think

0:46

of people asserting certain viewpoints. Johanna

0:48

Richland of the University of Maine joins Hear Me

0:50

Out in just a moment. Stay with us.

0:58

Welcome back to Hear Me Out. I'm Celeste

1:00

Headley. More Americans now

1:02

oppose vaccine requirements for school

1:04

children. Not a majority, but

1:07

more. Data from the Pew Center last

1:09

year found that between October 2019 to

1:11

March of 2023, the number

1:14

of parents who think vaccines should

1:16

be optional went up. To

1:19

be clear, the increase was modest, going from

1:21

16% to 28% of all Americans surveyed. And

1:25

again, the vast majority of

1:27

Americans believe vaccines should be mandatory

1:29

in public schools. Still, the

1:32

results look different when sorted for a

1:34

political party. In recent

1:36

years, the percentage of self-described

1:38

conservatives who oppose vaccine requirements

1:40

more than doubled. The

1:43

ratio of conservatives for and against

1:45

vaccine requirements is now almost

1:47

1 to 1. And look,

1:49

this is a show about debating, but

1:51

there is no debate that vaccines work. The

1:54

ones we require children to have before attending

1:56

public schools are safe And effective

1:58

at keeping individuals and children safe.

2:00

the collective says more than ninety

2:03

percent of doctors believe adults and

2:05

children should receive all recommended vaccines,

2:07

and it's hard to get that

2:09

kind of consensus in science on

2:12

anything. so vaccine skepticism can be

2:14

hard to understand and really easy

2:16

to vilify or guess today. Monsters

2:18

to rethink that condemnation because she's

2:20

spoken to vaccine skeptical mothers and

2:23

found it's not ignorance or etiology

2:25

fueling the skepticism all the time.

2:27

It sometimes real issues with the

2:29

way. We run our healthcare system to

2:31

head of Richland is an anthropologist at the

2:34

University of Maine. either pay So for those

2:36

who don't know, you tell us who you

2:38

are in what you do. So.

2:41

I am an assistant professor of

2:43

Anthropology at the university of Me

2:45

and where I teach classes on

2:47

cultural anthropology and in the classroom

2:50

and I'm also a writer or

2:52

who publishes research and academic channels

2:54

and rates are popular pieces on.

2:56

My research at most recently

2:59

on vaccine skepticism. Among mothers

3:01

my broader incest or kind

3:03

of on how police and

3:05

feelings circulate in Us society.

3:07

And so before looking. At Vaccine

3:09

Skepticism I was really interested

3:11

in religious. Belief and Evangelical Christianity

3:13

among migrants recently moving to the

3:16

United States. So.

3:19

Your arm point of view that you're

3:21

bringing to us is that. It

3:24

it may be easy

3:26

to criticize an insult.

3:28

People who don't vaccinate their kids.

3:31

But. Sat is

3:34

not always deserved, right?

3:36

I mean either that

3:38

the general view. On

3:41

by the majority of Americans who see no

3:43

problem with a vaccine. Is

3:45

that if you oppose vaccines, it's either.

3:48

As you said, for political reasons. Or

3:50

because you don't. Get

3:53

it, I'm don't understand.

3:56

Why is that? Wrong.

3:59

Well. I think it's an oversimplification. I

4:01

mean I think that their first why

4:04

one as as process what. I'm gonna

4:06

say by noting that my research is

4:08

ongoing that I think there are many

4:10

different ways people arrive a vaccine skepticism

4:12

and my researches really highlighting one avenue

4:15

that I don't think I don't think

4:17

gets very much attention so I think

4:19

it helps to complicate and bring new

4:21

to the conversation. I also think it's

4:23

important to note that it's very possible

4:25

for people to have adverse. Interactions.

4:28

And encounters with the medical system and

4:31

not end up this using or rejecting

4:33

vaccine. So I think there's more kind

4:35

of nuance there as well. But for

4:37

many of the people that I spoke

4:40

to, it was not random that they

4:42

arrived at a position of feeling. Like.

4:45

The medical system writ large. Was

4:47

untrustworthy, And that

4:50

their personal experiences from

4:52

childhood through. Childbirth through,

4:54

you know, reproductive years

4:56

in general had been

4:58

fairly on traumatizing for

5:01

many women. And. That that experience

5:03

as day to day repeated experiences.

5:05

And encounters on strip them

5:07

of trust for not only

5:10

their individual doctors or nurses

5:12

or providers on where they

5:15

experienced or perceived harm. But.

5:17

As an insider system writ large and

5:19

that's really where I think the problem.

5:22

Lies is that we know I'm

5:24

and as my article goes into

5:26

and other research goes into we

5:29

know that on medical errors and

5:31

medical harm especially for when women

5:33

and underrepresented minorities. Remains very

5:36

high staggeringly so in the

5:38

United States on and that

5:40

happens disproportionately for an people

5:42

of color and for. A

5:45

non binary folks. And ah,

5:47

all of that means that

5:49

people are sustaining these kinds

5:51

of experiences. That are either demeaning

5:53

are diminishing or be no more

5:55

serious or been misdiagnosed or they're

5:58

not being diagnosed correctly. I'm

6:00

and that leads people to therefore question

6:02

the kind of terror that they're getting.

6:04

And then to extend that questioning.

6:07

To the public health care system

6:09

more generally on. And so I

6:11

think it's important to clean it looked

6:13

at our own systems and sixers in

6:15

this is what kind of cultural anthropology

6:18

can help us do and instead is

6:20

kind of place the blame on individuals

6:22

and see that seen skepticism as individual

6:24

pathologies or he then. On.

6:27

Political pathologies, That

6:29

we can see how our own

6:31

systems actually generate a predisposition. Towards

6:33

distrust that actually exists and

6:36

lived experience. And that

6:38

maybe if we kind of

6:40

validate that experience or address

6:42

that, that people would be

6:44

more willing. Potentially on to.

6:47

To take on something that they feel

6:49

otherwise concerned about that it wouldn't be

6:51

so easy to dismiss. Okay

6:53

slimming some been here because

6:55

of let me start with

6:57

the the the question about.

7:00

By put people on which.

7:03

A lot of people still have

7:05

in their minds this idea that

7:07

vaccine uptake is lower among African

7:09

Americans and and Hispanic or Latino

7:11

Americans, which was true at the

7:14

very beginning of the pandemic, but

7:16

is not true anymore. And

7:19

in fact, the people who are most

7:21

likely. To. Receive vaccines,

7:24

Statistically, Speaking are. White.

7:26

Americans, especially those who are

7:29

conservatives. That

7:31

to me flies in the face of

7:33

this idea that is not related to

7:35

politics because. We're talking

7:38

about I'm a group of people. When

7:40

you talk about those who. Were. In

7:43

large numbers oppose

7:46

vaccines. They're mostly

7:48

conservatives. Things as conservative as a

7:50

month so much more likely to

7:53

to that the resist and oppose

7:55

vaccine mandates than any. Other group

7:57

chef at that's not and true at

7:59

all. In, I don't and I I just want to

8:01

be clear that my research. Is not primarily

8:04

about. Necessarily the covered nineteen

8:06

vaccine, but rather is kind of

8:08

longer simmering history as axiom skepticism

8:10

within the United States And so

8:13

there are lots of different demographics.

8:15

And has lots of different kind

8:17

of populations and certainly that politicization

8:19

of the class and has become

8:22

extreme in the last an innocence

8:24

the pandemic through trump his arms

8:26

on through the rise. Of the

8:28

Medical Freedom Movement and cent of

8:30

political organizing. On the right to

8:32

meet medical freedom and the idea

8:35

of parental choice and medical autonomy

8:37

to be very very on foundational

8:39

central key issues in their political

8:41

platforms. So I certainly agree with

8:43

all that. And that's not really

8:46

what my research is on my

8:48

researches. really looking at how people

8:50

in how mothers in particular in

8:52

this piece that I'm writing about

8:54

are talking about their own arrival

8:56

at Vaccine. Skepticism And this is

8:58

at the beginning, the research was done

9:01

and Twenty Twenty Twenty Twenty One. So

9:03

that kind of medical freedom movement was

9:05

gaining traction. And now and Twenty Twenty

9:08

Four has kind of exploded. so there's

9:10

a whole other thing going on. That.

9:12

Is not really weird. My research

9:15

began and are a lot of

9:17

people who are studying the kind

9:19

of more political piece of it.

9:21

But what I'm trying to look

9:23

at is what provides an inroad

9:25

for people to begin doubting rights.

9:27

And so maybe it is the

9:30

political piece that is kind of

9:32

what people are seeing most clearly

9:34

right now. and that's clearly very

9:36

consequential. And I'm yes, very much

9:38

falls along the line of the

9:40

kind of conservative. And liberal divide.

9:43

But I'm kind of insists it again and may insist

9:45

of. Of the. Circulation Of

9:47

Feeling The Circulation of belief

9:50

is why did these stances

9:52

become believable? For so many people when

9:54

we. Do have some as evidence to

9:57

the contrary regarding vaccines and why

9:59

there and. Organ and how they do

10:01

protect. The children

10:03

and elderly and. All of us.

10:05

So if we know all about why,

10:07

does it become so believable? Why isn't

10:10

so easy for politicians to kind of

10:12

appropriate language a vaccine, skepticism and pray

10:14

and people's feelings of distrust? Where do

10:16

these broader feelings of distress come from?

10:19

On And so I their lots of

10:21

places on the. Political side of things

10:23

where we can look at you know he

10:25

can look at conservative Christian the we can

10:27

look at rural populations and the kind of

10:30

on you know. Disillusionment and the loss

10:32

of jobs and and of grievance.

10:34

And in those areas in the

10:37

United States that are kind of

10:39

affiliated with. Far

10:42

right extremists arm and and unfurl rural

10:44

loss in many places. But my research

10:46

to this point at least has really

10:48

been looking at: how can we think

10:51

about our systems in the cell years

10:53

and health care of themselves for how

10:55

they at least meet people more likely

10:57

to believe. That. Ah that

11:00

vaccines are not protecting them and

11:02

that medical care and public health

11:04

care systems are not intent. On.

11:07

Are providing for their health rather than making

11:09

their own mouth. Why is that so easy

11:11

for people to believe? I'm and so I

11:14

think the gender dimension here is really important

11:16

and my research and that for women in

11:18

particular is a lot of data. About.

11:20

Birth trauma, obstetric harm,

11:22

adverse outcomes for for

11:24

women and for babies

11:26

at a much higher

11:29

rate. Than pure any sense You're

11:31

in the United States and the all

11:33

of that data means that you know

11:35

people aren't just crazy. The women that

11:37

I'm talking to or not just crazy

11:39

that their feelings of not being taken

11:41

care of are not really trusting their

11:43

medical providers. On, you know,

11:46

Is unreasonable or rather than those

11:48

feelings and those experiences with lead

11:50

to an after effect and a

11:53

spillover offense and be potentially co

11:55

opted by the political sphere to

11:57

me makes makes some sense. So

12:01

we have to take a break with the there's

12:03

a lot last. Still more to talk about so

12:05

stay with us on Celeste Headley This is hear

12:07

me out from Slate and will be back. Where.

12:14

Bath this is Hear Me Out! a podcast

12:16

from Slate. I'm Solas Headley and today we're

12:19

talking about. The

12:21

parents. Especially women who.

12:23

Hesitate to get vaccines not just

12:26

themselves but especially for their children

12:28

arm and are just says we

12:31

should not be so quick. To

12:34

call them names. I'm. Were.

12:36

As for the majority of

12:39

society who sees the importance

12:41

of vaccines, it can be

12:43

really easy to get angry.

12:46

At the hesitant, I'm.

12:48

It almost immediately. So johanna

12:51

out a want to ask about. That,

12:53

especially for those I can absolutely

12:55

imagine. I've read a number of

12:57

pieces from people in the disabled

13:00

community saying this is not okay

13:02

regardless of what somebody his motivations

13:04

are for avoiding vaccines, you're putting

13:06

a lot of people at risk

13:08

and there are a number of

13:10

studies including some that predate. Cove.

13:13

It showing that vaccine

13:15

hesitancy leads to absolutely.

13:18

Preventable. Deaths so.

13:22

I mean, it's natural for people to

13:24

get angry, isn't it? Oh

13:27

absolutely yeah. I mean, I think

13:29

that and in a large reason

13:32

why it's important to study vaccine

13:34

non vaccination practices. Weather sucks to

13:36

vaccination. Or vaccine refusal outlay,

13:39

or, you know, Any

13:41

form of and and police said

13:43

are not confident I think are

13:45

important to study exactly. Because they are

13:47

important. So if were trying to improve uptake

13:49

and we're trying to improve. Utilization and

13:52

we don't want vaccines to become

13:54

a flashpoint that enters. Ah, you

13:56

know, politicization and the culture wars?

13:58

And shouldn't we. understand why it

14:00

is that people are refusing

14:03

and rejecting or feeling suspicious

14:05

and take that seriously. And so that's

14:07

part of what motivates my research is to

14:09

try to understand rather than dismiss

14:12

you know an entire swath of

14:14

the population as being crazy and

14:17

hysterical is to try to understand

14:19

from the ground how it is

14:21

that these belief systems and these

14:23

approaches and orientations again become reasonable

14:26

and make sense for the people who are asserting

14:28

them. And I think a couple of things are

14:30

going on. The first I kind of outlined in

14:33

terms of the real ways that

14:35

our healthcare system fails large populations

14:38

and so makes people more distrusting

14:40

and again that's not just mothers

14:42

but there are other populations where

14:45

vaccine skepticism tends to circulate. The

14:47

second thing that I think is important

14:50

is that because of this distrust there's

14:52

kind of a gap and a void

14:54

that is then filled by alternative messaging

14:56

and that is the kinds of materials

14:58

and disinformation that we've seen absolutely

15:02

kind of exponentially grow

15:04

in the last several years. There was just an

15:06

article I saw on healthcare misinformation

15:09

on the New York Times

15:11

front page today that these

15:13

materials become taken up and

15:15

then circulate so quickly and become

15:17

the talking points of people who

15:19

no longer trust the FDA or

15:21

the CDC precisely because they

15:23

have reasons in their own lived

15:25

experience to distrust. They've lost the

15:27

trust of physicians or of nurses

15:29

or of their family clinics or

15:31

they've heard stories of friends and

15:33

families who've lost trust and therefore

15:35

it becomes easier for those folks

15:38

to then reach for these alternative

15:40

framings that not only seem to

15:42

make sense to them and give kind

15:44

of credence to what they believe but

15:46

to validate their concerns in a way

15:48

that's not dismissive and so I think

15:50

that that's part of the issue that

15:52

we're seeing. Yeah except,

15:55

except Johanna I don't

15:57

think we can get away from the fact that even though

16:00

those who are vulnerable to have vaccine

16:02

hesitancy, we

16:04

cannot separate this from people who are

16:06

being manipulated by political actors and by

16:08

misinformation. And the reason I say that

16:10

is because to my

16:12

mind, black Americans have more reason to

16:15

distrust the healthcare system in the United

16:17

States than pretty much any other group.

16:19

There's no other group of Americans who've

16:22

been ethically and illegally

16:24

tested on and abused by

16:26

healthcare providers than black Americans.

16:29

And yet, even though

16:32

black Protestants have a high

16:34

rate of skepticism about, say,

16:36

the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine,

16:40

the percentage who think that

16:42

children shouldn't

16:45

be required to get it

16:47

for school is by

16:50

orders of magnitude lower than white

16:52

evangelicals and other conservatives. I mean,

16:55

we're talking about a group of

16:57

people, you have

16:59

this combination of partisanship,

17:01

hyper partisanship, and then

17:03

this politically

17:06

driven identity of

17:08

parental rights. Parental rights

17:11

trumping everything. And then you combine

17:13

that with a conservative tendency in

17:16

recent years to denigrate

17:19

authority, to

17:23

denigrate or lessen

17:25

any respect in experts and

17:27

expert opinions. And

17:30

that creates, sorry to

17:32

use the cliche, but the sort of perfect storm of

17:36

people who are not gonna get vaccines. I

17:38

mean, I get what you're saying, that these

17:40

are people who have a reason to trust

17:42

the healthcare system, but quite frankly, every

17:45

single American has a reason to distrust

17:47

the healthcare system. Exactly, yeah, I think

17:49

that's an excellent point and that's part

17:51

of the research too, which is why

17:53

is it that certain populations and certain

17:56

demographics, even if, as you

17:58

say, they have... personal

18:01

experiences, collective

18:03

histories, ongoing

18:05

kind of exposures and traumas to medical

18:08

harm, why is it that

18:10

there's this kind of divide? Why is

18:12

it that some people end up then

18:14

writing off the entire system, including public

18:16

health care and mandatory or recommended

18:20

vaccines and other... And the safety of the people around

18:22

them. Yes, and other people don't. And so that's

18:24

why, again, I think it's important to

18:27

remember that we don't

18:29

know all of these answers, but I think

18:31

that they are important questions to ask

18:33

and not to think that all

18:36

of these different pieces of the puzzle

18:39

are unrelated. Just to your point

18:41

about how people are being

18:43

manipulated by disinformation, I think that this

18:46

is a really important aspect, that the manipulation

18:48

and the kind of

18:50

disinformation that

18:53

gets circulated, one of the

18:55

reasons that people are compelled

18:57

by it and find it attractive is

19:00

because for some people, not

19:02

for everybody, but for some people, it

19:04

seems to answer questions that they

19:06

otherwise haven't had answered, or

19:09

it validates things that they already have concerns

19:12

about. And so it

19:14

is a perfect storm, I think,

19:16

that there is a kind of

19:18

increasing anxiety, increasing distrust, increasing loss

19:21

of feeling settled and oriented in

19:24

the contemporary US landscape and reaching for

19:27

many different ways of trying to answer

19:31

which way is up. And for people

19:33

that don't have trusted institutions, then look

19:35

to the kind of refusal

19:39

and the rejection of authority, then absolutely

19:41

this is one piece of that as well. And

19:43

we know that that's become increasingly

19:45

so as the kind of Republican Party and the

19:47

right have made

19:50

kind of vaccine refusal and rejection of

19:52

mandatory vaccines as key kind of components

19:54

of their platform. So

19:59

another argument

20:01

I would have is that, I mean,

20:04

we know, science knows that

20:06

the least accurate information you can get

20:09

about human beings

20:11

is self-reports. And

20:13

I know that when it comes to things

20:16

that are connected to, especially things that are

20:18

connected to politics, especially

20:20

when they involve so-called

20:23

hot button topics like

20:25

gender and disability and

20:28

race, people will give

20:31

motivations for the reason why they're doing

20:33

things, whether it's why they voted for

20:35

a certain person, why they took a particular

20:37

stance, that are not the truth. And

20:41

the other thing I'll say is that we have

20:43

a bunch of studies showing that the people who

20:46

mistrust vaccines,

20:49

doctors, medical advice,

20:52

they are much

20:54

more likely to overestimate their own

20:56

knowledge about medicine

20:58

and science. Like these are

21:00

people who think they know

21:02

better. So

21:05

I mean, it sounds

21:07

to me like you're saying, look, have some

21:09

empathy, we won't be able to convince them

21:11

to get vaccines unless we treat them like

21:13

humans who have complicated

21:15

and nuanced motivations.

21:18

Is that accurate? That

21:20

close to what you're saying to me? Yeah.

21:23

I mean, look, I'm going

21:25

to draw a parallel here because I think this

21:27

is a similar audience and it

21:29

gives you kind of a window into my own research

21:33

progression from studying evangelical Christianity

21:36

to then vaccine skepticism is that I think

21:38

that there are ways

21:40

in which popular media in

21:43

broad strokes distills entire

21:45

groups of people and entire

21:47

kind of ways of believing

21:49

and frameworks as being

21:52

distasteful or being despicable

21:54

even and being completely

21:56

irrational. And One

21:58

of my jobs as an anthropologist. And

22:00

you know this is the kind of work

22:02

that Anthropologist you all over the world is

22:04

to show is not to say that this

22:06

is right or wrong. I'm a cultural observer,

22:08

right? This is not. I'm not saying that

22:10

you know with events also Christianity I we

22:12

said son ontological question. I'm not saying yes.

22:14

this is a right to system A bully

22:16

for this is wrong system of beliefs but

22:18

rather how is it. Something. That

22:21

makes sense to so many people. That's

22:23

my job And so that's what I

22:25

would say here is that's my job

22:27

is not to say that. Ah, you

22:29

know that. This entirely make

22:31

sense. Services. This is a

22:33

right way of believing, but rather if

22:36

we dig a little bit and we

22:38

try to learn from the people who

22:40

are actually experiencing and making these decisions

22:43

and perhaps we can understand it better

22:45

and maybe understand our own society and

22:47

the problems that face us and the

22:49

kinds of divisions and divisiveness that we

22:52

have with some potentially positive ways of

22:54

moving the needle because right now we

22:56

don't really see those ah in terms

22:59

of this and South isn't if our

23:01

current way of talking. About it has

23:03

not been helpful and has in some ways

23:05

and of further polarized and is there a

23:08

way that may be bringing a different. Landscape

23:10

of understanding or month or

23:12

attention to a different horizon

23:14

are part of the problems.

23:16

Might might help us further.

23:19

Things. So. We steps

23:21

take another break a but they're still more to

23:23

say so stay with us on Celeste said we're

23:25

listening to hear me out a broadcast from sleep

23:27

and we will return. Good.

23:37

To have you back this is

23:39

hear me out. a pot. That

23:41

some slight I'm Solas Hadley and

23:43

we're talking about the vaccine. Hesitant

23:45

and Johanna Ritalin says, ah, we

23:47

should not vilify them. So.

23:51

He will have a few minutes left

23:53

here. Johanna and I have to get

23:55

to the point of why does it

23:57

matter And I say that not because

23:59

they're. Human beings and we should all

24:01

try to make connections and respect one

24:03

another as human beings, regardless of what

24:06

their opinions are split from a practical

24:08

standpoint. If

24:10

if you don't believe

24:12

that right red lights.

24:15

Are. Fair. Maybe. You

24:17

think that you're a better driver

24:19

than anybody you know Better send

24:21

the urban planners and you shouldn't.

24:23

Have to. Stop.

24:25

At a red light. He.

24:28

Doesn't matter, right? Like you

24:30

have to keep the everybody you're not

24:32

lucky people sense if you stop keeps

24:34

running through red lights. It causes a

24:36

lot of deaths and so we make

24:38

laws and says it doesn't matter, your

24:41

feelings don't matter here. This is the

24:43

rule because we know there is an

24:45

answer to whether vaccines are safe or

24:47

not and the answer is they are

24:49

So. We're. Going to make this

24:51

law. So. Understanding

24:54

that your whole job is to

24:56

study. The wise motivations for

24:58

a practical. Standpoint: Why should

25:00

I? Why should it matter to me?

25:04

And think that that's a good question

25:06

and mean I think that if we

25:08

are interested in having building bridges and

25:10

living in a. World. Where perhaps there's

25:12

less. Intense polarization and

25:15

inability. To talk across different demographics

25:17

and across the front lines are

25:19

to people that we think we

25:21

have complete inability. To understand or they

25:23

have a complete inability to understand Asked

25:25

us if that's an important value. Or

25:28

an important way to conceive as a

25:30

potential future that has more opening in

25:32

it and more bridges. And then I

25:34

would say for all of us it's

25:36

important to speak from a place of

25:38

empathy and try to understand. You know

25:40

if it's not just the characterization think

25:42

we see in the news or if

25:44

it's not just the worst case scenario

25:46

that we think as than we think

25:48

as on people asserting certain viewpoint sense

25:51

how is this as a team to

25:53

those you points. And again and

25:55

in I think that seen as

25:57

skepticism is in the news. Ah.

26:00

That's funny right now because of the political

26:02

dimensions and how it's become mapped onto a

26:04

very you know right. Wing. Far

26:06

right kind of and belief system,

26:09

but prior. To that many, many

26:11

people. Prior to the politicization, many

26:13

people on the right had their

26:15

children vaccinated, You know before co that

26:17

and didn't start writing off vaccines and

26:19

Tell and more recently and says this

26:22

isn't a new problem people. Have always

26:24

kind of projected their fears and anxieties

26:26

onto that. Seems I'm onto phobias

26:28

about the medical system and about

26:30

health care and that could be

26:32

trusted. And so if Nance has

26:34

this moment components and plane as

26:36

a broader kind of famer understanding

26:38

where these feelings come from and

26:40

how people apply these feelings in

26:42

terms of their dated a decision

26:44

making. Whether that's medical care or

26:46

whether that's political decisions that there

26:48

something to be learned by. Doubling

26:51

into these issues. Yes,

26:55

I mean that look. You're never gonna

26:57

get pushback from me on treating people

26:59

with empathy. And with basics respect

27:01

regardless of of your agreement

27:04

on. I mean I

27:06

gotta say, I get pretty. Impatient.

27:09

At. This point with people who

27:11

have been. Who

27:14

have had a lot of

27:16

compassionate conversation with who have

27:18

seen this ah, celebrities come

27:20

out and give these patients

27:22

loving conversations about why vaccines

27:25

are important. They've had people

27:27

leaders in the disabled community

27:29

say listen, this is about

27:31

saving lives, arms and yet.

27:34

They people will push all that

27:36

aside. Because. Donald.

27:39

Trump Suss it is making them

27:41

feel vaccine hesitant or whoever they're

27:43

right wing. Leader

27:45

is is saying don't believe any

27:47

that stuff They're all wrong. They're

27:50

all lying to you. Because.

27:52

Of whatever conspiracy theory or there as

27:54

part of Joe Biden or whatever it

27:56

may be, I don't mean to downplay

27:58

people's political the police on saying. That

28:00

they will take all of the

28:02

messages. From experts from

28:04

ah. Public. Figures and.

28:08

Toss. It in the garbage. Because.

28:10

Of what some a political party politician.

28:13

Is saying that's what's happening today

28:15

and I think that that's an

28:17

important data point which is that

28:19

on people who feel strongly that

28:21

they don't trust or ninth and

28:23

in be convinced. They're. Not gonna

28:25

be convinced by reasoning or not

28:27

any convinced that information. that's. Partly

28:29

why I think I'm public Health

28:31

messaging often falls really flat for

28:34

for these groups because they can't

28:36

be convinced. it's not about convincing,

28:38

so as convincing doesn't work. And.

28:40

If it's not about. Information. Then.

28:43

It's about the level of feeling

28:45

and assets and that's a whole

28:47

different kind of conversation and. Terrain

28:49

that's about a question of ceiling and

28:52

trust and effect on and emotion. and

28:54

that's partly why it's such a dicey

28:56

and difficult subject matter. And and as

28:59

you also rightly. Demonstrate. It's not just

29:01

the people who feel strongly. About

29:03

I'm. Not wanting to

29:05

get vaccines are not trusting the system,

29:07

but it's people feeling really really some

29:09

ways that people who don't do that

29:11

are causing inordinate harm and are being

29:13

very, very selfish. And so as those

29:15

are the two kind of polarized sides

29:17

of the debate, it doesn't seem like.

29:20

There's. Much place to go, right?

29:22

But if there's a way of trying to

29:24

cysts the kinds. Of conversations that we're having.

29:26

I mean, you said just a little while

29:29

ago. All Americans, we all have

29:31

reasons to distrust health care, right? We

29:33

can all understand that is that the

29:35

jumping off point and neither the dataset.

29:38

Seen well. Where where do people go

29:40

off the tracks? Right? Where. is it

29:42

that you go from the state point

29:44

to data point to then something all

29:46

the way to this position that become

29:48

cemented and and trends that you have

29:51

a very difficult time moving from and

29:53

so i think that says something to

29:55

consider also say that i think it's

29:58

also really important to know that people

30:00

who feel suspicious of vaccines or medicine

30:02

are not just on the right by

30:04

any means. They're

30:06

all over the political spectrum, which

30:09

makes a third party candidate very,

30:11

very, you know, for

30:14

many people, very compelling and popular.

30:16

And so I Robert Kennedy. Yeah,

30:18

exactly. And so it's, again, this isn't

30:21

just a question of far right extremism

30:23

and Trump ism. But it's actually something

30:25

that is much more deeply embedded in

30:28

US society and history, and was kind

30:31

of ignited, you know, there was a

30:33

match blown on to it during COVID-19

30:35

that has burst it to the fore

30:37

and made it a real something really

30:40

to contend with, which

30:42

I think, again, is another reason why we

30:44

ought to take some time to understand more

30:46

nuance surrounding the issue. I mean,

30:49

that's fair enough. It's a it's a fair point. Either

30:52

way, I really appreciate you coming on to the

30:54

show to talk about it because it's a really

30:56

important issue. Well, thank you. Thank you very much

30:59

for taking the time to chat. Listen,

31:07

nothing gets more email than

31:09

hot takes on vaccines. I

31:12

know you have thoughts about this. And

31:15

I also know I want to hear them. So

31:17

email us let us know what you think

31:20

about the vaccine hesitant. Maybe you're one of

31:22

them. Maybe you're angry at them. Maybe whatever

31:26

your point of view is, we

31:28

want to hear it. It's hearmeoutatslate.com.

31:30

And honestly, we love hearing your

31:32

thoughts, whether you agree with our

31:34

guests or you don't. Last

31:36

week, we spoke with Richard Friedman about

31:39

his idea that therapy should not be

31:41

something we do all the time. We

31:43

got some very thoughtful email from you about that

31:46

conversation. So before we go, we wanted to share

31:48

a note we got from Pam. Pam

31:50

wrote this. Just a quick

31:52

way in the program on therapy

31:54

was absolutely ridiculous. Yes, more

31:56

people are feeling comfortable about talking about the

31:59

fact that they have a therapist. Most people

32:01

do come into the world with confusion because

32:03

we're asked to make sense of the world

32:05

at a very young age. Unpacking

32:07

that and putting a new strategy in place

32:09

is no easy feat. Sadly,

32:11

there's still an incredible resistance from

32:13

everyday people who are causing themselves

32:15

and others damage because they won't take

32:18

a look inside. I fear the

32:20

message your guest might be sending." You

32:22

know, Pam, that was the bulk of my

32:24

pushback on our guest as well, the fear that

32:27

people would take what he

32:29

was saying as a reason not to

32:31

get therapy. So thank you for sending

32:33

that in and for the rest of

32:35

you, please send in your thoughts as

32:37

well because we do want to hear

32:39

from you. Our email address is hearmeouttslake.com.

32:41

Keep your emails coming. Hear

32:44

Me Out is a podcast from Slate.

32:46

The show is produced by Maura Curry.

32:49

Ben Richmond is the Senior Director of

32:51

Podcast Operations and Alicia Montgomery is the

32:53

VP of Slate Audio. I'm your host,

32:55

Ted Lee. Until next time, speak your

32:57

mind, but keep it open.