0:00

This is the BBC. This

0:03

podcast is supported by advertising outside

0:05

the UK. Visit

0:30

bluenile.com and use promo code LISTEN to get $50 off

0:32

your purchase of $500 or more. That's

0:35

code LISTEN at bluenile.com for $50 off.

0:39

bluenile.com. Code LISTEN. There's

0:41

never been a faster or easier way to start

0:43

your weight loss journey than with Plushcare. Plushcare

0:46

accepts most insurance plans and gives you online

0:48

access to board certified physicians who

0:51

can prescribe FDA approved weight loss medications

0:53

like Wegovy and ZepBound for those who

0:55

qualify. Take charge of

0:57

your health and speak with a board certified physician

0:59

about a weight loss plan that's right for you.

1:03

Get started today at plushcare.com/weight loss. That's

1:06

plushcare.com/weight loss. plushcare.com/weight

1:09

loss. BBC

1:15

Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

1:21

Hello and welcome to the BBC Radio

1:23

4 series Toast where we look at the

1:25

amazing businesses or products that had all the

1:27

promise to deliver, only

1:29

for them to one day end up toast. I'm

1:32

Sean Farrington. With me is Sam

1:34

White, entrepreneur, self-made millionaire, jet setter.

1:38

Hello, Sam. You're getting bored of saying that now, aren't you? Yeah,

1:41

I mean, I was sick of saying it when I was talking to you and you were in Sydney. Sam,

1:45

as ever, doesn't know what business or products we're

1:47

going to be talking about today. She'll

1:50

hear what you hear coming to conclusions along the way. Let's

1:53

get into it. Right.

1:56

This one was a much loved

1:58

retailer. that first

2:00

popped up in the UK in 1962. It

2:02

was an American business so

2:05

brought with it some typically American

2:07

ideas. Huge stores was one of

2:09

them. We're talking about the

2:11

supermarket sector. People get quite nostalgic idea

2:13

about where McGrand chopped. Safeway.

2:18

Oh Safeway yeah. Gosh

2:20

I've not heard that name for

2:22

a very long time. It was like you

2:24

just remember the first love of an old

2:26

friend. So Sam remembers it. If you never

2:28

had the pleasure of experiencing the Safeway store,

2:31

this might paint a picture for you. The

2:33

toast team spoke with Scott McGlynn. He and

2:35

his family would shop in Safeway. He recalls

2:37

what it was like going to his local

2:39

store. When I was a kid,

2:42

literally that was our like Saturday day

2:44

out with my family. Safeway

2:46

always just had like everything. I

2:48

bought my first hubbers bicycle, yeah,

2:50

CD there and the movie as

2:52

well. And where

2:54

we lived I think that was like the

2:56

only place to go unless you go a

2:58

bit more further out than you have the

3:00

other supermarkets. But other than that Safeway was

3:02

like the hub. It was always

3:04

like round and it was

3:06

just always like a good hangout spot as a

3:09

teenager because like they had like the cafe they

3:11

bought into supermarkets and stuff. So Scott's talking I

3:13

think about the late 80s early 90s there. I

3:15

mean it's funny now Sam you've got a big

3:18

supermarket. Most of us have one within

3:20

10-15 minutes and it

3:23

wouldn't quite instill the excitement

3:25

but when retail innovates and down

3:27

the road you've got something you

3:29

haven't had before, those

3:32

memories really stick with you. Yeah and

3:34

it's a very pivotal point obviously

3:36

that age range where you're starting to become

3:38

social and hang out with your mates. Where do

3:40

you go? What do you do? And it's

3:43

interesting to think that at one

3:45

point a supermarket could be the

3:47

teenage hangout point really isn't it?

3:50

Around that same time that Scott

3:52

was loving hanging out in Safeway,

3:54

the UK arm of Safeway was

3:56

acquired by a big food company

3:58

called Argyle Group and

4:01

the sale was almost £700 million

4:03

back then. So it's a pretty

4:05

decent size of business Sam. Yeah

4:07

that's a very nice payday for

4:10

whoever was the original owners or

4:12

management team. So at the

4:14

time Argyle Group owned a supermarket called

4:16

Presto as well which many listeners may

4:18

be familiar with but they clearly saw

4:20

Safeway as the brand to

4:22

be. They began converting some of those

4:24

Presto stores into Safeway stores as well

4:26

and Safeway was going great guns at

4:28

this time thriving in the UK. These big

4:31

stores there were a growing number of

4:33

them as well by 1990 there were

4:37

290 of these stores across the

4:39

UK and somebody

4:41

who was right at the heart of what

4:43

was going on at Safeway

4:45

was Theresa Wickham director of communications

4:48

for Safeway. Theresa hello good to

4:50

talk to you. Good morning

4:52

hello. Thank you so much for being with

4:54

us. Can you give us a rundown of

4:57

what Safeway was all

4:59

about? Yes it was a

5:01

fantastic time to join Safeway. I'd never

5:03

worked in a big corporate company before.

5:05

I'd co-founded a pressure group for English

5:07

apples which actually challenged the supermarket so

5:10

when I got the call from the

5:12

head hunter to join a supermarket I

5:14

said which one? When they said Safeway

5:16

I said I'm very interested and

5:19

also the other thing was because I knew

5:21

nothing about retail everybody thinks it's just buying

5:23

a can of beans putting it on the

5:25

shelf selling it. I had a huge induction

5:27

program so for the first two weeks I

5:29

went out and worked in a store which

5:31

was amazing. I mean I'm a great shopper

5:33

but actually being behind the scenes in the

5:35

store was an eye-opener to

5:37

me. I know how people behave and

5:40

also I'm very good at stacking shelves.

5:44

What was the supermarket scene

5:46

like and how did

5:48

Safeway fit in that? We

5:51

were the minnows so we set out

5:53

to be quite cheeky in what we

5:55

were doing and very innovative. We also

5:57

started things like meet the buyer, small

6:00

suppliers who wanted to get onto supermarket

6:02

shelves. We held sort of sessions down

6:04

in the West Country. It was

6:06

quite difficult because we didn't want to raise expectations,

6:08

but people wanted to know if they

6:11

wanted to supply a supermarket what they need

6:13

to do. And others copied us. Some people

6:15

got on the shelves, some people realised they

6:17

didn't want to. So that innovation

6:19

and also the other thing, we were the

6:22

first into the organic food market. And

6:24

that was interesting because if you're an

6:26

organic shopper, you did your main shop

6:28

with us. And was this making

6:31

money at the time in the early

6:33

90s? Yes, it was for two

6:35

reasons. One is that centralized

6:37

distribution puts about one and a half

6:40

percent on the bottom line. What

6:42

does that mean when you talk about centralized distribution? What was

6:44

it you were doing? Well, years ago, particularly

6:46

on the continent, produce was delivered

6:48

to the stores by

6:51

the suppliers. And what

6:53

happened was with centralized distribution, you had

6:55

these great big distribution depots, suppliers sent

6:57

their produce in there. And then lorries

7:00

owned by the supermarket went out to

7:02

the different stores. They

7:04

were very strong in fresh produce. But if

7:06

you have fresh produce, it has to be

7:08

fresh. And through their technology

7:11

and their centralized distribution, they were able

7:13

to cut the delivery time down to

7:15

24 hours to get it

7:17

onto the shelves from the supplier.

7:20

And so was that in line with what other supermarkets

7:22

were doing? No, they were ahead of

7:24

the game. A lot of the technology with

7:26

Safeway was ahead of the game. And people

7:28

caught up with them. I mean, the self

7:30

scanning that you now take for granted. I

7:33

introduced that in the store in

7:35

1996. And everybody said, Oh, this

7:37

is a recipe for shoplifting. No,

7:39

it's not. If people are

7:41

going to shoplift, they're going to shoplift. But

7:43

what it did help people as they went

7:45

round, they knew what was costing them. They

7:48

could add it up with the handheld bars

7:50

and get out quicker. The trouble was for

7:52

us that Tesco's were the first to

7:54

develop big out of sound superstores.

7:56

And while you referred to superstores,

7:58

in fact, Safeway had a lot of

8:01

much more medium-sized stores and they didn't

8:03

get in on the first thrash of

8:06

the out-of-town super stores which was Tesca's

8:08

advantage to be able to grow as

8:11

of the cash cows. Now we've

8:14

heard the excitement from Theresa

8:16

working there, this business that

8:18

was growing that felt like

8:20

the underdog that was battling

8:23

against some of these bigger names. Let's

8:25

bring in somebody else who was getting a

8:27

slice of the Safeway success. Judy

8:30

Gardner was supplying pickles and

8:32

chutneys to Safeway. Judy hello.

8:34

Hello. When was it that you were doing

8:37

your supplying to Safeway? Through the 90s.

8:39

Through the 90s. Judy, what do you

8:41

remember Safeway being all about? Well,

8:43

I had a fantastic relationship with Safeway.

8:46

I was actually introduced to them through one

8:48

of the Meet the Buyer campaigns and

8:51

fortunately the buyer liked

8:53

my product and took me into 50

8:56

of their stores with my pickled onions

8:58

and chutneys. Within six

9:00

months I'd outsold pickled

9:02

onions in Scotland. That

9:04

was own label pickled onions in Scotland at

9:07

a very cheap price which was unheard of.

9:09

I neglected to tell you that I went in at £1.50 a

9:12

job with my onions when the brand leader

9:14

was going out at I think about 55

9:17

pence. The

9:19

whole thing was going so well that

9:21

the following year they put me

9:23

on a national account which meant

9:25

that my business just started to

9:27

really go. It was

9:30

an amazing opportunity for me. Because

9:32

once Safeway had taken it on a

9:35

national scale then the other supermarkets followed

9:37

on. I remember Tesco coming

9:39

along to me and saying for goodness sake

9:41

how come you're supplying Safeway and I was

9:43

able to say well they got me first.

9:46

What was the secret here Judy? Was there something you

9:48

had going on with your pickled onions? Well,

9:50

all of my products were hand produced so

9:52

that maintained the quality. I was all

9:54

about the taste and quality. Obviously I

9:56

developed a very good recipe

9:58

for my vinegar. and my

10:01

pickling solutions and we just

10:03

work to the highest quality we could. Sam,

10:05

I love these stories within stories that we come

10:07

across sometimes. I mean, to be selling something that's

10:09

a bit more expensive than the other stuff, but

10:11

it's that good that people are

10:14

like, yeah, let's go for it and it booms. Actually,

10:16

sounds like Safeway were ahead of the

10:18

game for once. We often talk about

10:21

businesses that are behind the curve and

10:23

don't move quickly enough. But,

10:25

you know, local suppliers meet

10:28

the buyers, higher quality goods,

10:30

organic. This is

10:32

all things that probably are attractive

10:36

to a certain portion of the market now, but

10:39

maybe it wasn't quite

10:41

enough at the time because of where

10:43

the consumers were at. I do

10:45

love a pickled onion. Yeah, me too. I'm

10:48

amazed our producers haven't said to us yet, can

10:50

you stop talking about pickled onions? Trying

10:53

to figure out what went on at Safeway. But,

10:55

Judy, is your pickled onion business still going or

10:57

what was the name of it? The brand

10:59

I created was called Garnet. I grew it

11:01

in 12 years and I'd sold

11:04

out to bacstas actually. I think you still

11:06

see some of the pickled onions and pickled

11:08

eggs on the shelves now. Judy,

11:10

it's been lovely having you on the program.

11:13

Safeway was huge. Mid-90s,

11:15

this business, hundreds of stores,

11:18

plenty of happy customers, happy

11:20

suppliers as well as we've been hearing. So

11:22

where did it go wrong? So

11:27

the thing is Safeway was seen as a

11:29

more expensive place to shop. So to try

11:31

to counter that image, take on its big

11:33

rivals, Tesco and Sainsbury's, it brought in its

11:35

own range of lower price goods, Safeway

11:38

Savers. Theresa, how difficult was it

11:40

for Safeway to actually challenge those

11:43

price perceptions that its customers had?

11:45

It's quite difficult because once you

11:47

get that perception, it takes some time for

11:49

people to go. So they

11:51

did a loyalty card for families and

11:54

they did all sorts of things. But

11:56

all those things take time to penetrate

11:58

people's views. So that was... problem

12:00

for them which they recognised. Were

12:03

these ideas working? Yes, they

12:05

were. But the big problem that

12:07

Safeway had, apart from the price

12:09

perception, was that they didn't get

12:12

into the big out-of-town superstores at

12:14

the same time that Tesco's did.

12:16

And it gave Tesco's the big

12:18

leap forward in terms of selling

12:20

space, scale, you can offer more

12:22

volume to suppliers. And we had

12:24

far more of the sort of

12:27

medium-sized stores, very big in Scotland, very big

12:29

in Scotland. We had the largest share of

12:32

the market there. And so by

12:34

the mid-90s, that's when we first

12:36

sort of look back and see those

12:38

reports of Safeway starting to close some

12:40

stores. So 1.17 were shut and around

12:42

1,000 jobs were lost.

12:47

Well, all retailers shut stores, but

12:49

you shut stores for a reason,

12:51

but you don't stop opening stores.

12:53

You just open stores in different

12:55

locations and in different sizes. Sam,

12:58

what do you do when, you know, Theresa

13:00

talks about Tesco winning the space race

13:02

at that time and they've mopped up

13:04

a load of the great out-of-town locations

13:07

and you're behind. You

13:10

have to find another way to solve the

13:12

problem. But if the superstores were the answering

13:14

consumers were moving

13:17

over to the mid-roves, then obviously

13:19

finding a solution to the land

13:21

would be number one priority from

13:23

a board level viewpoint. And you'd

13:26

need to bring in somebody that

13:28

had specialist skills in that area.

13:30

Did they do that, Theresa? They

13:32

had a fantastic property development team

13:34

who used to fly around the

13:36

country in an airplane on a

13:38

Friday looking at possible sites. So

13:40

it might be a bus station

13:42

in Exeter, an old vacant

13:45

factory in Tot Ness. But Tesco's

13:47

got in early and had a

13:49

good land bank. And so

13:51

how was it feeling at Safeway? I know you left in

13:53

1996. So around that time, was this...

13:58

Oh, we've got a battle

14:00

on our... hands to survive here or

14:02

did it feel like there were other

14:05

solutions? I think it felt

14:07

that it was going well. In

14:09

1994 it launched an advertising campaign,

14:11

it launched these price perceptions. I

14:14

left because my big project had finished putting

14:16

you all into a job. There comes a

14:18

time when you say, I think I'd like

14:20

a breathing space and I think I'd like

14:23

a change. The thing we have to remember

14:25

about these big four is they

14:27

were fixated on their share price every

14:29

day. The discounters who've come in now

14:32

aren't share priced, they're family

14:34

owned businesses. They've been

14:36

around for a long time but it's those

14:38

Sainsbury's Tesco's Safeway all very

14:40

focused on their share price

14:43

because it was important to

14:45

them. Something that's come up before Sam? Oh

14:47

yeah. Why is

14:49

that such an issue? Because clearly there must

14:51

be reasons people want to list on stock

14:53

markets and get investment from people by doing

14:55

it that way but of course then you've

14:57

got a load of shareholders around the world.

14:59

It's not so much the shareholders

15:01

as the perception of

15:04

the effect on shareholders.

15:07

So I worry about spend a

15:09

pound, make a pound fifty.

15:11

It has to be cash generative. The

15:13

stock market, the prices of shares aren't

15:15

always related to the underlying performance of

15:17

the business or

15:19

even the values or the potential

15:22

for the future. It is all

15:24

about perception. So how the

15:27

market is talking about your

15:29

business. So you end

15:31

up becoming politicians instead of business

15:33

people. You end up making decisions

15:36

that you think are going to be the

15:38

right decisions for the share price and

15:40

not the right decision for the business

15:43

and it's that disconnected. It's not saying

15:45

it's not, there's lots of

15:47

good reasons to float a business and

15:49

if you want to get to real

15:52

scale there's huge advantages but it can't

15:54

be underestimated the disconnect that happens between

15:56

the underlying business performance.

16:00

Safeway's got this battle with the

16:02

bigger supermarkets who are, Tesco

16:05

particularly mopping up some of those huge out

16:07

of town spaces to build their stores that

16:09

we still see in a lot of places

16:11

today, don't we? Safeway actually bought in a

16:14

former Walmart, the huge US grocer.

16:17

And executive from there, Carlos

16:19

Creado Perez, he added

16:21

pizza making, fresh pasta counters, had

16:23

all these ideas, improved the look

16:25

of the stores as well. Customer

16:27

numbers grew a bit, sales rose.

16:29

Profits were up a bit as

16:31

well. But despite all this improvement,

16:34

Safeway was still struggling to

16:36

compete against his rivals

16:39

by 2002 in a

16:41

drop from third place to become

16:43

the fourth largest supermarket chain in

16:45

the UK. And by then, Ronan

16:47

Heggerti had joined the retail trade

16:49

magazine, The Grocer. And Ronan joins

16:51

us now. Ronan, hello. Hi

16:53

there. How are you doing? Very well, thank

16:55

you. What was on the cards for Safeway

16:57

back at the turn of the century? At

17:00

that time, everything was just

17:03

about Tesco, really. Safeway flipped into fourth place.

17:05

Ginger was still second as it was third.

17:08

Safeway dropped down and it was just under 10%

17:11

of the market. The ones ahead of that

17:13

were around 16%, whereas Tesco was 25%

17:15

of the market. And

17:17

so it just felt that Safeway had kind

17:20

of lost its place. It

17:22

was just so competitive, a marketplace

17:24

at that time. Were we starting at this point

17:26

to sort of hear more of

17:29

other businesses wanting to buy what

17:31

Safeway had, thinking they couldn't stand

17:33

on their own two feet? There

17:36

had been a lot of talk

17:38

about mergers and acquisitions. I think

17:40

even earlier in the late

17:42

90s, I think Asda had had a look

17:44

at potentially buying Safeway. But I

17:46

think, you know, we've seen Tesco buy lots

17:49

of other little chains of stores that they

17:51

were disappearing out of rain knots, northern St.

17:53

Mor like Bells,

17:56

Jacksons, lots of big

17:58

convenience chains in London. snapped

18:00

up by the likes of Tesco, Sainsbury's as

18:02

well. So it

18:04

was a very acquisitive time and there was a

18:06

sense that if you weren't

18:08

big enough, you were vulnerable. But also

18:11

at the same time, the Competition Commission,

18:13

the regulator they were looking out for

18:15

customers, the Competition Commission wasn't too pleased

18:17

when the likes of

18:19

Sainsbury's were looking at what

18:22

Safeway had and thinking maybe we'd like

18:24

to buy it. Yeah, absolutely.

18:26

And we had that situation where

18:28

Tesco, Sainsbury's and Asda again had

18:30

a look and because of

18:32

their skills at the time, the addition of the

18:35

Safeway portfolio to theirs would have created a bit

18:37

of a giant. If

18:39

Tesco had bought it, it would really have

18:42

set them apart. If Sainsbury's or Asda

18:44

bought it, it would have just put them closer to the

18:46

level of Tesco at the time. And

18:48

so the idea was that if you just

18:50

strip away another brand, then you set up four

18:53

big markets or even five at the time, but

18:55

in a local area, there might be only three.

18:57

And over the course of time, while it was

18:59

not competitive, they weren't immediately going to

19:01

put prices up because of course, time prices would go

19:03

up because there'd be less competition. And so the customer

19:05

would suffer. That's the ethos

19:07

of what the Competition Commission was trying to

19:09

protect. So the move was blocked then by

19:11

the Competition Commission at that point. It

19:14

was blocked for those bigger guys,

19:16

but it wasn't blocked for Morrisons

19:18

essentially because Morrisons were in fifth

19:20

place at the time and were

19:22

actually even smaller, almost half

19:24

the size of Safeway at the

19:27

time. And what was the offer? Can you remember? It

19:29

was somewhere in the region of $3 billion. And

19:31

there was also rumors around

19:34

that Philip Green had been also keen to

19:36

try and get his hands on it. He'd

19:38

also been looking at M&S around that time

19:40

as well and subsequently tried again to

19:42

buy M&S. And so some market

19:45

assets at the time were definitely seen as a

19:47

really important thing to get into. Did they own

19:49

the site, Safeway? Did they own

19:51

the properties? They did, yeah. And

19:53

again, that was a big part of it,

19:55

Morrisons. They started eventually talking about more as

19:57

a property label than a buying a rock.

20:00

to create a much bigger supermarket chain kind of thing.

20:03

And that space for the trees I

20:05

mentioned had been huge. I think at

20:07

the time we were talking about the

20:09

term Tesco Town, I'd really got into

20:11

the national conversation where we had these

20:13

ideas of Tesco surrounding towns with four

20:15

or five big supermarkets out of towns,

20:18

supermarkets. And the other supermarkets had

20:20

these land banks as mentioned, which they were keeping,

20:22

sometimes not even building on them, just keeping them

20:24

so others couldn't buy them. So that space was

20:26

such a premium. So to keep

20:29

regulators happy at the time, that

20:31

deal did go through. Morrison's bought

20:34

almost 480 stores from Safeway, had

20:37

to sell 50 odd of them, but they kept

20:39

the majority, rebranding them

20:41

all Morrison's. So it

20:43

was at that point, Sam, that

20:46

Safeway was no more.

20:48

Theresa, why weren't people at Safeway

20:50

thinking, right, we need to go

20:52

out, get a bit stronger. Why don't we

20:54

go and buy Morrison's? Well,

20:57

that's a question I can't answer because I

20:59

wasn't there. It's a question other

21:01

people have asked at the same time. But

21:04

that was the decision of both

21:06

boards that it would work. Morrison's,

21:08

I don't think, realised they were

21:10

taking on a totally different business,

21:12

very much more sophisticated, particularly in

21:15

the technology, the self-scanning and things

21:17

like that. So it took them

21:19

some time to realise what they'd

21:21

bought. So, Rhodan, what do you think? Why

21:23

wasn't it the other way round? And

21:25

we're almost not sitting here saying it's the

21:27

Morrison's name that went, and it was Safeway

21:30

that's still around today. Yeah, I think that's

21:32

probably the history of the companies. You

21:34

talked about, obviously, Safeway originally coming over from

21:37

America, then being bought out by Argyle. It

21:40

didn't have that sort of legacy as

21:42

a sort of British business, whereas Morrison's

21:44

grew organically from a market stolen

21:47

Bradford into this huge

21:49

northern supermarket powerhouse. And

21:52

I wouldn't have seen them selling

21:54

for all the tea in China. It

21:57

had something wrong lines of 36 years. of

22:00

consecutive growth. Not

22:02

bad. It had never issued any sort

22:04

of problems or anything like that kind

22:06

of thing in it and its shareholders

22:08

were always pretty happy with

22:10

what they were doing at the time. Well

22:13

we've got to the point where the Safeway

22:15

name disappeared. He'd sort of re-emerge a little

22:17

bit. In 2016 Morrison said that they'd revive

22:19

the Safeway name for some of the food

22:21

it makes and would supply it wholesale to

22:23

independent retailers. So then in 2022 Morrison's bought

22:27

McColl's. The year after that

22:29

they started to get rid of the Safeway and label

22:31

ranges as well when they sort of reassessed what

22:34

they were doing. So it really was

22:36

the the final end of the Safeway name at

22:39

that point. Theresa, Ronan,

22:41

thank you so much for being with

22:44

us on the programme today. Sam,

22:47

why is it that Safeway isn't one of those at

22:49

the top of our high street these days? Supermarkets

22:52

are probably the most

22:55

cutthroat, brutal market you

22:57

could ever possibly imagine.

23:00

So a £3 billion sale

23:03

exit is by no means a

23:06

failure. It was obviously the right time

23:09

for them to get out. I

23:11

think that this is absolutely down

23:13

to market forces and

23:16

the level of ruthlessness that

23:18

goes on in supermarket trading.

23:21

You have to kill or be killed

23:23

from what I've seen. What's the lesson

23:25

to learn there? Because that must be

23:27

something that comes up quite a bit

23:29

where you're in an industry that's changing

23:32

massively and people are merging. There might

23:34

be two businesses that should be together

23:36

but actually who's buying who here? Who

23:38

wins out? That is absolutely down to

23:40

who wants it all badly and you

23:42

know I always say you can have

23:44

anything you want in life, just

23:47

what are you prepared to sacrifice to have

23:49

it? In these sets of

23:51

circumstances that's where it comes down to it in the

23:53

management team. One team wanted

23:55

it more badly than the other team

23:57

and they took it. And you know all the time.

24:00

or credit to them. I

24:02

don't know how successful Morrison's

24:05

acquisition of Safeway was for

24:07

Morrison's. I don't know whether there was any

24:09

regret further down the line because

24:11

I should imagine it's become harder and harder

24:13

to compete in that market segment. So I

24:16

would say Safeway did a good deal, but

24:19

ultimately Morrison's wanted it and they

24:22

willed out in their desire for that.

24:24

Yeah, and we've seen Morrison's, having had

24:26

quite a journey itself, having new owners,

24:29

sounds like a good Saturday night game show that.

24:32

The merger. The merger, yeah. Two businesses,

24:34

only one survives. Family fight. Because you're

24:36

hosting that Sam, I'm putting a good

24:38

word for you. Sam, brilliant to talk

24:41

to you as ever. Thanks

24:43

also to our expert guests Theresa Wickham,

24:45

Judy Gardner, Ronan Hegarty as well, who

24:47

joined us their news editor at

24:50

The Grosa. That's

24:53

all from us for now. We'll be

24:55

back with a new series later

24:57

in the year, so please do

24:59

send us your suggestions for topics

25:01

that are toast. You can email

25:03

us toast at bbc.co.uk. You can

25:05

find all our episodes in the

25:07

Slice Bread feed on BBC Sams.

25:09

Toast is presented by me, Sean

25:11

Farrington, produced by Vianse Deke and

25:13

John Douglas. It's a BBC Audio

25:15

North production for Radio 4 and

25:18

BBC Sams. Thank you for listening.

25:21

Hello, it's Robin Ince here with a new series

25:23

of The Infinite Monkeys Guide 2. We've gone back

25:25

through all of the episodes

25:27

of The Infinite Monkey Cage and we've

25:29

ransacked the archive to bring you the

25:31

best bits from scientists and celebrities with

25:33

handy little guides to everything from failure

25:35

to the future. We'll even throw in

25:37

a bit of religion too. Yeah, hello.

25:39

It's Brian Cox here. We've pulled together

25:41

the best moments from the past 28 series of the

25:43

show, 28

25:46

theories, to bring you some of

25:48

the funniest moments and the most surprising

25:50

signs with guests including Eric Kidal, Dave

25:53

Gorman and our resident theologian, Casey Brand.

25:55

It's called The Infinite Monkeys Guide 2.

25:58

Listen first on BBC. sounds.