0:01

I am so glad you could join us.

0:04

I'm your host, MogoDebt. This

0:08

podcast is nothing more than a conversation

0:11

between two good friends, sharing

0:13

inspiring life stories, and

0:15

perhaps some nuggets of wisdom along

0:18

the way. This

0:20

is your invitation to slow

0:22

down with us. Welcome

0:26

to Slo mo.

0:34

Welcome back. Today's conversation

0:37

is one that is really really important

0:39

to me around two months ago,

0:42

one of my dear friends in the UK, Kevin,

0:45

who is a banker but also a very

0:47

nice human being, Kevin, basically

0:49

came to me and said, you have to meet

0:51

this startup. This is really, really

0:54

trying to change things in the

0:56

mental well-being in the in the well-being space

0:58

in general. And I was like, yeah,

1:01

Kevin, you know, maybe not and so

1:03

on. And he said, just do it for me. I

1:05

need you to meet them. And we

1:07

went for a coffee and

1:09

I sit with the with the

1:11

team and they are pitching me

1:14

an idea where I found

1:16

myself sitting down silently

1:19

watching the demo of ready

1:21

for production. And app and interface and

1:23

website and so on that

1:26

basically blew me away.

1:28

I sat down, I didn't say a word, and

1:30

Later, the founder of the business

1:33

sort of told me I got really worried,

1:35

like, why are you not saying anything? Because

1:39

cheesy as it sounds. They got me

1:41

at Slo. The minute I saw the original interface,

1:44

I basically decided in my mind that that

1:46

actually might be the answer. I'll tell

1:48

you why in a minute, but just for full disclosure,

1:51

I ended up investing in the

1:53

organization because they have

1:56

one free component to

1:58

it that is actually free

2:00

for everyone basically and could make a

2:02

massive difference to mental well-being and well-being

2:04

in general. I started to be on

2:06

their board of directors and to

2:08

be an adviser for the technology side

2:10

of what they're trying to do in an attempt

2:13

to also help them create a business

2:15

that can keep their nonprofit arm

2:18

afloat and sustainable and successful. The

2:21

company is called Jack, just

2:23

ask any questions, so JAAQ.

2:26

And they were founded by

2:28

Danny Gray. Danny is well very

2:30

well known in the UK for having one

2:33

of the most successful Dragon

2:35

den pitches. Basically about

2:38

an idea that was very personal to

2:40

him when he did it, which is

2:42

to provide men's makeup.

2:45

Interestingly, I never thought about

2:47

that. Like, I would definitely never

2:49

wear makeup, but when I heard

2:51

Danny's story, I understood why that

2:53

actually really matters. I will not

2:55

take a lot of your time on the introduction. Dani

2:58

is super passionate about

3:02

making sure that no one

3:05

suffers what he had to suffer. And

3:07

in my mind, these are the kinds

3:09

of entrepreneurs and founders and

3:12

change makers that actually

3:14

make a massive difference because

3:17

they are not driven by

3:19

the business they are driven

3:21

by, I don't want anyone to

3:24

ever feel as bad as I

3:26

felt. When I met Danny

3:28

for the first time, he was the

3:30

one that said, I don't wanna make a

3:32

dollar on any of this. I

3:34

was the bad guy that said, you

3:36

have to build that sustainable infrastructure. Structure

3:38

of business that makes you change

3:41

the world with the money of businesses. We're

3:43

gonna come into all of that and

3:45

discuss with you what I believe is one

3:48

of the ideas that can really

3:50

really change your outlook on your mental

3:52

health. On your well-being and

3:55

on how to develop habits that can

3:57

absolutely improve your world. So

4:00

Danny Gray and Jack.

4:02

Thanks for being here, my friend. Pleasure

4:05

everyone. I I'm not sure what self that enjoy.

4:07

I feel a bit embarrassed. No.

4:09

You should be embarrassed. You should be very,

4:11

very proud even though I have to say

4:14

I was blown away. I mean, the first time we

4:16

met your passion

4:18

to start, was overwhelming. I think this, by

4:20

the way, is very shy. I don't know if you know that,

4:22

but everyone I introduced to you will

4:24

come back to me with two comments. Let's say, Jack

4:26

is incredible. But Danny is so

4:28

passionate and it seems

4:30

to me that if people don't

4:32

know your story, they would not actually

4:35

understand why would anyone be so passionate

4:37

about this. To you, this is

4:39

it. This is the purpose of

4:41

your life. This is what you're trying to achieve with

4:43

your life. And it comes from a very personal

4:45

story. And I I know it's difficult to

4:47

share this in

4:49

public, but we discussed that you

4:51

may be willing to tell people why

4:53

you got into that space. Why you got into

4:55

men's makeup in the first place. Slo do

4:57

we wanna start there? Of course. it

4:59

all goes back to when I was sort of twelve years

5:01

old. So that was

5:03

always I was bit of a jet that in

5:06

in the UK where we've said Chapman had a bit of a

5:08

light sport, light lights girls

5:11

and all of that. And I was twelve years old, not

5:13

caring the world, I I think I was pretty popular.

5:16

That's cool. And then I was on the playground

5:18

one day, and my ears actually were

5:20

right angles to my head at the time. They stuck out.

5:22

And there's four boys on the playground and out of nowhere

5:25

they just literally turn around and started taking a

5:27

mick out of my ears. So I was singing like the A Kelly

5:29

song, I believe I can fly and flapping their ears.

5:32

That's always sad. can't listen to our Kelly anymore,

5:34

which is a bonus, Moe, with everything that's going

5:36

through. But honestly, I'd

5:39

never even taken a notice of my parents. And

5:41

then I'll come in, we're just going home that day, looking

5:44

at the mirror and going, and we've got my ears do stick

5:46

out. I didn't look within four months.

5:48

My mom had

5:49

spoke to the NHS and now my ears pinned back.

5:52

Slo

5:52

that shows me it's sort of twelve years old. How much

5:54

it must have affected me. But, Slo, I was only bullied for a couple of

5:56

weeks. He can go on and on and on, but that

5:58

was it for me. I started obsessed about

6:00

my years, hadn't been back. But as

6:03

I grew, that obsession became worse.

6:05

Other things overtook it. Right? So got

6:07

to fifteen, sixteen, a lot of

6:09

sport, not necessarily acne, but that was

6:11

a massive you for me. And just a spot. Turn

6:13

to my sister. It just turned around and

6:16

gave me a little bit concealer. Slo,

6:18

basically, concealer is something you just put on to

6:20

cover your blemishes. And honestly,

6:22

mate, I couldn't believe what product could do

6:25

and how easy it was and how it was a it's

6:27

just all of a sudden my fears went.

6:29

So I've been wearing makeup for last twenty years I've

6:31

put on today. But

6:34

look, that's why I went into men's makeup

6:36

because I wanted to create a brand, but Fifteen,

6:38

sixteen years of makeup, he didn't fix the issue

6:40

because I was using these tools, but my mind

6:43

was just getting worse and worse, so Gawdat eighteen,

6:45

nineteen, twenty years old. It could take me

6:47

hours to get ready. I'm talking hours, three,

6:49

four hours, five hours. Yeah.

6:51

Like, really bad. And and

6:53

what I didn't understand my mindset, my mind.

6:56

I remember I was living at over my mom and

6:58

I'd come downstairs and I was so

7:00

my anger from getting changed, I mean, to I just

7:03

ripped my t shirts off. And punch

7:05

and holes in walls. And my mom would sit there, and

7:07

then and she always say, but you look amazing, you always

7:09

do. And my head hurts like,

7:12

That's not helping me, but I didn't know how to articulate

7:14

that to my mom. Mhmm. So I just didn't really speak

7:16

to anyone about it and then got to about twenty eight,

7:18

twenty nine. Thought I was losing my

7:21

hair. And as you can see, I'm

7:23

quite fortunate. Yeah. Yeah.

7:25

I have a lot of

7:26

hair. I literally got

7:27

in the car at work. And I just looked

7:29

to move your mirror, and there was gap here. And

7:32

that was it for me, mate, two years mirror

7:34

my life. So every minute of

7:36

every day, to what I thought about. I say, I lost a lot.

7:38

I'll be driving home for hours. I know

7:40

I've now I've arrived because I've been looking at rearview

7:42

mirror. So I saw a punch from one rearview mirror off my car.

7:45

And then, yeah, yes, it professionally got worse and worse,

7:47

and I went to the network effectively. I had a I

7:49

don't call it a breakdown, but drinking

7:51

drugs going out all the time. Four

7:53

o'clock in the morning of thirty is I'll work up my mother-in-law

7:56

of all people because I was at the brink and just

7:58

said I just can't deal with it

7:59

anymore. So that wasn't

8:01

my opinion. So this is like

8:04

two bullies in school, twelve

8:06

years old. And they completely

8:09

reconfigure your life. Right? They reconfigure

8:12

your view of yourself. They reconfigure your

8:14

view of life itself. They lead

8:16

you in direction where you're unable to deal

8:18

with the world, and this happens every

8:21

single day. Now, I think

8:23

thousands and thousands of people are suffering through

8:25

this right now. So I want you

8:27

to tell me a little bit about

8:30

about the inner side of this. Like, what

8:32

was going on? How far did it go

8:34

for you? How how were you able to even

8:37

deal with yourself at that time

8:39

at all? So when I got to about

8:41

until about eighteen,

8:42

nineteen, twenty going out, like a lot of

8:44

people do it at that age. I can remember

8:46

it was me getting ready. It was just

8:49

part of me. And taking

8:51

that long hours and I could

8:53

literally I could be getting

8:55

ready, getting my outfit ready. And

8:57

I could sit in front stand front of the mirror for

8:59

two hours. Do my

9:00

hair? Two hours. Is

9:01

this correct? Normal, by the way? Yeah. There's it's

9:03

called it's it's a it's a natural condition. A

9:06

mental health called body to small fit disorder, BDD.

9:08

So at the time, I have no idea BDD exists.

9:10

And think that's half the problem. I just didn't

9:12

understand it. And BDDD is in the

9:14

obsession about the way you look, this body is a small

9:16

fit disorder. So it can be on possession about anything.

9:18

Right? It could be your weights. It could be

9:21

some people have it about their wrist Okay?

9:23

And if it's Yeah. It could be Slo

9:26

effectively, it's something that is you probably

9:28

will be like, no. It's something me, but for me, it's

9:30

I'm hypercritical about it. So

9:33

the it it can the BDD, I

9:36

think almost everyone has BDD, right, it's like

9:38

a scale. Slo, you know, people

9:41

take care of an appearance. Right? Or they went and got

9:43

it. They might put nice shirt

9:44

on. So there's a form of PVD. But

9:46

then you can gradually get worse and worse and worse.

9:48

So I was in the same situation where it controls

9:50

your life. So for me to get ready,

9:53

was just unbearable, but I just thought it

9:55

was me. I didn't understand why I did it and

9:57

take hours. For example, my mates would come around

10:00

to go out for the night out. They're already.

10:02

We and they would say, down the cabs coming at nine

10:04

o'clock. Right?

10:06

Disaster for MIMO. Soon as

10:08

someone puts a time on it, Oh, sorry.

10:10

Oh, shit.

10:11

Yeah. So I won't go out until I feel

10:13

comfortable going out. Yeah. And then all of a sudden,

10:15

so they got time pressure on me. I'm

10:17

getting ready few times because I know of caps

10:19

coming. My my anxiety is gone.

10:22

So I ask you to get ready seven times.

10:24

And because of that time pressure of the caps coming,

10:26

the caps coming, you got hurry up, hurry up.

10:29

I just couldn't manage it. And then, you

10:31

know, I was sometimes forced myself to go out.

10:33

Not not feeling comfortable. And I'm

10:36

quite life and sort of the party, like a

10:38

time, bit of a laugh. I just wouldn't say a

10:40

word, an amount. Because my anxiety

10:42

is as if someone's grown my

10:44

neck. And and what are you feeling? You're

10:45

feeling that people are looking at you, that you're something's

10:48

wrong with you? Not necessarily you know Gawdat was? It wasn't

10:50

necessarily looking at me, it was just I thought

10:52

I looked awful. So I wasn't comfortable

10:54

when I went out. Yeah. People looking at

10:56

me, but it's just myself didn't feel comfortable because

10:59

I didn't feel across. And so I

11:01

just wouldn't be the same I wouldn't be the same

11:02

person. I've got it a little I'll be honest, mate. I've got

11:05

it right now the

11:05

second. So you would still be conscious

11:08

around the way you look. Yeah. And I don't know like,

11:10

I have good days and bad days still. Right? But I've learned

11:12

to manage it a lot better. Well, right now, I just don't

11:14

feel a hundred percent comfortable and I'm

11:16

wearing. You see, it's it's quite interesting.

11:18

It's it's almost the exact opposite of

11:20

me. So I have no

11:22

concept of how I look at all this This

11:24

is why I'm always very comfortable in black t

11:26

shirts. Every now and then, I

11:29

would date a woman that wants to

11:31

sort of brag about me. she

11:33

would start to say wear a shirt. And I'm

11:35

like, yeah. Okay. I

11:37

wear a shirt. What difference does it make?

11:39

I'm almost the exact opposite of this.

11:42

And in a very interesting way, to

11:44

me, it's like, yeah, I look like

11:46

the way I look, I struggle to understand

11:49

why does it matter at all? But then for

11:51

you, that was the center of your life. Yeah.

11:53

It it's even like

11:54

packing. Right? Packins come here for four days.

11:57

Just as awesome. Is it? Yeah. Because

12:00

even though I'm a little better than I'm now, I'm a clothes,

12:02

a massive thing for me in a minute. And BD,

12:04

that's what happens as well. You can move away from one obsessed

12:06

into another. Slo I moved

12:08

from my ears to my

12:09

hair, moved away from my hair, and now

12:12

closed a big thing for me. Like, just

12:13

about being comfortable, yeah, to the point, where

12:16

I I packed, and I thought

12:18

I packed well. And then half way here, I'm thinking,

12:21

oh, should've put those shoes in. And that just

12:23

sat in control in my mindset. Oh, no. It's easier,

12:25

Julia. It's so interesting how we vary

12:27

as humans. Right? So I always had

12:30

that sort of being

12:32

conscious and I I always joke about

12:34

this because I was conscious about

12:36

my voice. Okay? I never

12:38

really liked my voice at all. I thought it

12:40

sounded horrible. And reality

12:43

is a lot of people say I sound quite

12:45

interesting. Right? I mean, I get

12:47

quite a few wonderful messages about

12:49

my voice. I have to admit to you.

12:51

I think I would say the same about the way you

12:53

look. You're a very handsome man,

12:55

very well dressed, very presentable

12:57

in almost every way. And I think

12:59

your spirit, the spirit that you bring to every

13:02

conversation, the passion that you bring to everything

13:04

that you do almost supersedes

13:07

that and just brings a wonderful personality.

13:09

If I didn't know that you went through BTD,

13:12

I would have never guessed that you even

13:14

worry about this because I'm almost

13:16

certain you get a few interesting

13:19

floats every now and then wherever you go.

13:21

It's quite interesting. But when you told me

13:23

the story, you told it to

13:25

me in a way that was the

13:28

peak of MPC and compassion. Okay?

13:31

So rather than you which

13:33

by the way, a lot of people would do, rather

13:35

than you saying, you know I

13:37

hate those bullies. I'm going to

13:39

go and take revenge at at any

13:41

bully in school and whatever. You

13:43

won the opposite way. You you said, I

13:45

struggled with this. I didn't

13:48

have the resources. I don't

13:50

want anyone else to struggle. So

13:52

to start with, I wanted to know how did

13:54

you become

13:55

better. Who helped you? When I got

13:57

to about thirty, I I literally the

13:59

hair loss thing was just ruled every

14:02

minute of every day to the point where I wish you can

14:04

function in day. So I was going out. I woke mother in the

14:06

rep of all people, and it's almost the point this was happening

14:08

with mental health for a minute. People wait.

14:10

Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait to crisis. And then they reach

14:12

out. Slo the average length is ten years. From

14:14

when someone first feels something to when they actually reach

14:16

out. Is that true?

14:16

The average length and that's

14:18

because when you're feeling something over here and you're not

14:20

sure what it is, like, no, until you know, no one's

14:23

gonna speak about it. As much as this and we need speak

14:25

about mental health, like people up here

14:27

aren't going to do it. They wait till they hate

14:29

crisis, and I did that. And eventually, worked mother-in-law

14:31

up and just said I can't manage. Everyone knew had

14:33

something by the way. Everyone knew about I

14:36

my mother-in-law when I first met her, she said,

14:38

I thought you were just vain. Because

14:40

what would happen to me when I'm getting ready, if I

14:42

don't feel comfortable, I'm checking myself all

14:45

the time. So I did it minute ago in the bathroom.

14:47

K? And luckily, your bathroom's got pretty decent

14:49

lighting, so I was actually, I don't know too bad.

14:52

Right? You look amazing. But

14:54

but if you're you're the kind of men that there

14:56

are other men feel jealous about. Yeah.

14:59

It's the truth. This hair, I

15:02

hate you. Ends down.

15:04

Yeah. But you you sorry to interrupt you,

15:06

but you so you keep checking yourself. Yeah. And that's

15:09

if I don't feel cool. Yeah. And I'll keep changing, but

15:11

the the flip side, if I feel comfortable how

15:13

I look and what I'm wearing, I

15:15

will purposely not look at myself.

15:18

because the there could be a time I

15:20

don't know why we need to look. We cannot do that. She's because

15:22

I was going into London once. Feel comfortable to meet

15:25

my mates. I was going up on the train. This is when I

15:27

was at my peak, and I felt comfortable, felt good, and I

15:29

was listening to you on the train. And I just looked

15:31

like that. And, you know, the train when it's

15:32

dark, it's

15:33

Yeah. You see that. It's a reflection. I just

15:35

went and you never looked good in that reflection

15:37

anyway. But I was that I don't know my

15:39

hair's not right. And then that was it for me. I was

15:41

spent the whole train journey in the toilet. Mhmm.

15:43

And I've got there. So I've got that thing now. I just

15:46

don't I don't check myself. But anyway,

15:48

so it got worse, worse,

15:50

wet mother up at four o'clock in the morning. And

15:52

they all knew I had something, but they just didn't no

15:54

one knows how bad it is up here. And I that's a lot of the

15:56

thing we've been to hell fight. Even if you think someone's They're

15:58

not right. They're probably twenty times worse in

16:00

their heads because they don't show it as well.

16:03

And then but then it was I just broke

16:05

down, so I just can't deal with it anymore. And in the

16:07

next day, I'll come in about every one time, we were in

16:09

the kitchen because four o'clock in the morning

16:11

and in the support network. Right? And then

16:15

my fiance courtesy was

16:17

out, look, you've got something called BDD,

16:19

someone sort of therapist a few times and had four

16:21

sessions. But as soon as I

16:24

could release it, people understood

16:26

it. And then I started researching it

16:29

and looking into it, and that was the whole thing for

16:31

me about information. I started to manage it better, but

16:33

a good example of that, then my mates really knew how

16:35

bad it was. My mates knew. Right? My

16:37

mates knew. That it was bad. So

16:39

a flip to that whole time thing. Next

16:42

time I was with my best mate, he was downstairs. I was getting

16:44

ready. He was downstairs with my mom having the beer.

16:46

I came down when it's what I wouldn't have done

16:48

before was say I'm struggling. But I

16:50

would never have said that. Obviously, we kept getting ready.

16:52

So came downstairs because I learned you need to

16:54

stop if you're you know, because it would just get worse and worse.

16:57

Okay. I said, man, I'm really struggling. And

16:59

he said, don't worry, mate. He says, the night's aren't

17:01

going anywhere. I've got

17:02

beer. take as long as you want. And then

17:04

I've got ready in fifteen minutes. that

17:08

support network, it clicked with me, how important

17:10

it is for them to understand something as much it is

17:12

for me. So Look, I'm not perfect now,

17:14

but I'm thirty seven, thirty eight.

17:16

I know you can't tell mate because I'm wearing more

17:18

pink. Mhmm. Slo?

17:21

Pleasure. Yeah. But,

17:23

no, no, seriously. But it's been

17:25

eight years and I still but I've learned how to manage

17:27

it. Right? we're before getting

17:29

ready if didn't feel comfortable, I can still go and be

17:31

okay now. Where before wouldn't

17:34

be answering it. So tell me about War Paint.

17:36

Your first attempt to help others

17:38

is your saying look I don't know

17:40

how you came up with the idea of makeup to start

17:42

because in very interesting way,

17:45

it's almost like getting yourself

17:47

ready to be bullied differently.

17:49

Like, a man with makeup could also

17:52

be there. Well, that's that's the way you perceive it.

17:54

Right? Yeah. This is the whole thing for me. Yeah. Oh, well,

17:56

makeup. No one knows. We're in it. I I wouldn't

17:58

know. Yeah. So that that was the point. So when

18:00

when I started wearing makeup, I it

18:02

would took me five minutes. It was really it was just,

18:04

like, even at my skin tones, not enhanced Which everyone

18:06

like, I think your perception point of your makeup is

18:08

lipstick eyeliner. I would notice someone's

18:11

wearing makeup. So for me, it's about simple

18:13

products using a simple way. Look,

18:15

I should go to my local supermarket and

18:17

steal it. Did you? Yeah. Because

18:19

I was embarrassed. Mhmm. Or where do

18:21

I go to find that information? I'm looking tutorials

18:24

and it's all women doing it on women taking forty five

18:26

minutes. That's too much for me.

18:28

So I kept the same where I've been using makeup for twenty

18:30

years. There must be a brand that comes out that hits it on

18:32

the head for a guy because the education

18:34

is different. The product is different. Mhmm. It's

18:36

thinner. And I just

18:39

kept saying, must be a brown must be brown. Nothing came

18:41

around. And then I was I was on the golf course.

18:43

I found it after this golf course earlier, mate. I

18:45

was on the golf course one day with my best mate

18:47

and he just turned around to me you got to

18:49

stop talking about it. That means makeup brand

18:51

just do it. And there's like someone flick to my

18:53

hip, and I couldn't wait to get off the golf course go

18:56

and start building this brand because

18:58

people were trying to do it, but I was looking at the

19:00

brands that they were creating. There's three or four that came

19:02

out. I I it's not

19:04

right. And I they People creating those

19:06

brands weren't the consumer. We're always the consumer.

19:09

So I thought I knew what the brand should

19:10

be, so that's where War Paint started.

19:13

And War Paint still is for

19:15

men that are not trying to appear

19:18

glamorous. Right? So this is not for boy

19:20

George. Yeah. Well, I

19:22

say it's for anyone, but are my audience.

19:25

Right? Because a lot of people were saying,

19:27

look, a lot of people have a perception of men's

19:29

makeup. Right? Eyeliner color. I was like, there's

19:31

a huge market I live guys, especially this is a thing

19:33

for me. I know there's lot of guys out

19:35

there who won't try something because of the

19:38

connotations that come with it. And that's my

19:40

whole philosophy in life. Just do something to make you

19:42

feel good. As long as you're not hurting anyone.

19:44

And that for me was makeup as well. And since I launched

19:46

Walpate in the amount of messages I Gawdat it's the

19:48

whole thing, but when you start doing something

19:51

and it improves people's lives or

19:53

is the feeling me, is unbelievable. And

19:56

I've got one message, well, you don't need almost couple

19:58

of months. And the mom messaged

20:00

us saying, I've got a sixteen year old boy,

20:02

he has rosacea, so his skin's red.

20:04

And it's really affecting him. He

20:07

won't he wouldn't have ever photo

20:09

taken. Right? He doesn't wanna go out. And I've

20:11

tried to convince him to try makeup and he wouldn't.

20:13

I showed him your brand, he loved it, and then

20:15

she sent him. She sent us a picture of

20:17

him. Said I'm crying, singiness.

20:21

Because now he can't I knew that. I knew that's

20:23

it. That's what the brand's about. It's not about the products. It's

20:25

about just giving people choice. And I'm

20:27

not saying it's for men, but not saying you have

20:29

to buy just for men products. I'm saying women's,

20:32

by whoever you want, then maybe just try

20:34

it. Just give it a go because you just,

20:36

you know, one little thing it might And

20:38

what I wanna say though is that I don't think it's gonna

20:41

fix everything, but just to use use

20:43

stuff that you feel comfortable to

20:45

do even if you people think you

20:46

shouldn't, who really benefit you. Slo

20:48

you told me the story when we first met Danny

20:51

in that coffee shop was, to me,

20:53

it triggered within me something Of

20:56

course, it triggered a lot of compassion for your

20:58

teenage years. But but it also

21:01

triggered that idea of Everyone

21:04

is struggling with something, and

21:06

it's so difficult for

21:09

you when you're sitting within it.

21:11

To understand it and pinpoint it. Right?

21:14

But when you do and

21:16

you know what it is, you realize

21:18

there are so many others that are going through

21:20

it as well. Slo idea of

21:23

maybe I don't struggle with this because

21:25

as I said, you know, I really don't give a shit

21:27

how I look like. But it's seems

21:29

to me that there are so many men now when you

21:31

when you told me the story. I started to look

21:33

around me at men that are really

21:35

close to me. And I started to observe

21:38

this in them. And believe it or not, I started

21:40

to have some of those conversations and

21:42

they had no clue. And these are grown

21:45

men in their late thirties, forties, and

21:47

fifties. And they didn't know that they

21:49

were struggling with this. So it seems to

21:51

me that everyone is struggling

21:53

with something, but very few of us

21:55

are aware of what what that thing is.

21:57

And I think that was when

21:59

your idea for Jack started to

22:01

come to reality. Right?

22:04

So tell me a bit about how you

22:06

came to this and what

22:08

is different about

22:09

Jack? Why was I blown away by Jack? Just

22:11

quickly about what what you said there as well. You know what you say

22:14

about this will annoys me a little

22:15

bit. Right? So when you say the word mental health,

22:18

everyone thinks it's someone's ill. And

22:20

has got something more I agree with you. I

22:22

agree with you. Under depression. It's anxiety. Yes.

22:24

BDD. Right? They can't go on. Like,

22:27

Everyone has mental health. Mental health

22:29

and the word healing actually really gets

22:31

to me. Healing means I'm sick. Yeah. Right?

22:33

And basically, it's it's positioning

22:35

it as there is something really, really, really

22:37

wrong. Right? Everyone on the every there's not

22:40

one person on this planet. It's not affected by maintenance.

22:42

Absolutely. Like, it's some and it's not just about

22:44

the negative of it. It's everything. It's ever

22:46

and that's what I'm gonna do with Jack like mental health

22:48

is it's not physical health. Right? So if you break your

22:50

arm on physical health, oh, you're breaking on,

22:52

but that's not just physical health. Physical health's everything.

22:54

Everything is about your heart. It's about your lungs. about

22:57

your muscles. It's about your brain. It's about

22:59

everything. It's a bit like mental health. Like, we talk about

23:01

conditions. There's lot more to

23:03

it. So and everyone has a problem, by

23:05

the way. You know, everyone has something they're

23:07

dealing with. But that Slo what happened, I I had

23:09

Walpank going. It was going well. We were scaling.

23:11

Got a lot of press interest, which was

23:13

interesting. was their Dredunds? Which

23:16

I did not see this. Yeah. So we it's

23:18

funny I went viral before, Dragons! Dan,

23:20

on Twitter, negatively around the world,

23:22

which Negative. Yeah. Yeah. We had eight

23:25

eight million views in twenty four hours on an ad on

23:27

Twitter. Uh-huh. And it trended number one in

23:29

the world. So on CNN, we're on

23:31

every news article, but it was toxic masculinity.

23:34

Basically ripping the brand to shreds.

23:37

And before that time, on wall paint,

23:39

I was still ashamed of it. Believe it or not. Right?

23:41

So I've created brand, but my story was over

23:44

here. Like hidden away. Because

23:46

the other thing with mental health always talk about this is

23:48

that my Slo mate scenario will make up,

23:50

and it wasn't a problem. But I was more worried about

23:52

the people I didn't care about. The outer

23:54

circle about what they would

23:55

think. So when I create a wall panel, I didn't want a lot of people to

23:57

know about it. So

23:58

anyway, put this ad out and everyone was

24:00

just lambasting the brand's and

24:03

saying, this is a joke just by women's

24:04

makeup. It's toxic masculinity. And I was

24:06

thinking, well, this is everything I've been battling against.

24:09

But what I know is that no one was talking about

24:11

my story. In that negativity. But

24:13

no one looked at my story and

24:14

said, actually, there's story behind it. So when

24:16

viral on the Tuesday, on the Thursday, I was

24:18

filming Dragons

24:19

Slo I've literally driving to

24:21

Manchester to film and I had to pull over to interviews

24:24

on the phone to America. Getting

24:26

hammered. So I made conscious decision

24:29

then that I was gonna tell the world that that I've got

24:31

put in a small picture disorder and I wear makeup

24:33

and it's okay. And luckily,

24:35

the pitch went extremely well. Like, the next

24:37

day, it went viral. That night, went

24:39

viral when it launched. And the next day, Daily

24:42

Mall was like best one in fourteen years. And

24:44

that the flip happened. So Airform

24:46

has given a lot of love to me telling my

24:48

story and have created this brand

24:50

and that was a big shift change for me about

24:52

nothing to do with the product. A

24:55

business has nothing to do with the product it is,

24:57

especially your commodity product like makeup

24:59

like skincare. The product

25:02

is about what the mission is and the brand

25:04

and what your purpose is.

25:07

So I made conscious decision to push the

25:09

brand more toward our story. So we filmed

25:11

everything, put everything out. But what

25:13

was happening in me? I was getting loads of

25:15

people messaged me. Even

25:17

guys to say something like this. I love

25:20

the brand. I love what you're doing, but I'm not ready

25:22

for makeup. Right? So some people see

25:24

that as negative. I, you know, I flip that to

25:26

say, if you look at fashion brand, how

25:28

often do they get messages from people to say,

25:30

I love your brand. Love your dude. Don't like your clothes

25:32

though. It

25:34

doesn't happen. Yeah. And then I was getting messages

25:36

from people because I was so vocal about my mental

25:38

health saying it's amazing what you're doing for mental

25:41

health. Can you can have a talk? Or can you help

25:43

me? So I was doing calls late at night. With

25:45

moms, dads, young guys,

25:48

girlfriend and boyfriend, just giving him some not

25:50

advice. They just ask some questions about confidence,

25:53

about my story. And that's when it hit

25:55

me square in the face made around the

25:58

lack of information. And it was one it

26:00

was one girl which has me on Instagram. Right?

26:02

To the boyfriend, I just she's

26:04

been moving two years, just told him told her

26:06

that he has BVD. She didn't

26:08

know, but he's in crisis. Come

26:11

out of a call. So I was like, he called, so it

26:13

was a zoom on Friday night. And

26:15

he she sat there, he sat behind, and

26:18

he's in absolute bits. He can't even

26:20

look at me. And she's like that. Look,

26:22

I tell him it looks great all the time. And I

26:24

said, look, I'll be honest, if when you said

26:26

that to me in my worst page, well, the worst thing you

26:28

could say. Yeah. And she he's behind doing

26:30

this to me. And she's like, why?

26:33

I'm like, because nothing about when I'm getting

26:35

ready, I'm so anxious, someone's saying that to

26:37

me. Isn't gonna help. It's more like take

26:40

a breath or a stop, and she was he was like

26:42

that. So anyway, it dawned on her.

26:44

And then I asked her, I was like,

26:47

my god. And this is other thing as well. Right? So he's in

26:49

crisis. He's wait he waited to reach out. He went

26:51

to the NHS. Elite time to

26:53

see a specialist. Right? But my heart is in crisis.

26:56

You went to Slo local GP's, you Gawdat see a specialist

26:58

at thirty six week lead time. So

27:00

this guy is in crisis, got their thirty six week, and then

27:03

they said they were to find information and it

27:05

just it was so mismatched and didn't know where to

27:07

go. So that's when it reached out to me. So what I did

27:09

was tell my personal journey. Mhmm. So

27:11

it takes sometimes years to actually

27:14

find out what your problem is or your

27:16

challenge is. And when you seek a specialist,

27:18

there is no answer for you because it will take you

27:20

thirty six weeks to see

27:21

someone.

27:22

Yeah. And

27:22

and often the answer from the specialist

27:24

is take a couple of pills or whatever.

27:26

Absolutely. In the when you see specialist, the first

27:29

three sessions is just about giving you information.

27:32

Giving you information. Yes. So it's not diagnosis.

27:34

It's just because what happens when you go imagine

27:36

that guy. Right? He's panicking. Right?

27:38

So he's in crisis. He's not gonna say anything.

27:40

He goes to that expert. Do you know what he's gonna do

27:42

for the whole first session?

27:43

Mhmm. Fill a form probably.

27:46

That's it. That's it then do nothing.

27:49

Yeah. Yeah. And he's gonna be nervous.

27:52

So that he'll might break out and

27:54

say a few things. He goes away. The doctor

27:56

will send a lot of stuff to him. Doesn't process

27:58

it all. Right? So you go back to the next session. Maybe

28:01

you might speak a little bit, get more information.

28:03

So first three sessions are just about information

28:06

given. So it dawns on me

28:08

else with some using some

28:10

tech around, imagine if we

28:12

could create a safe space with people and

28:14

go to get the right information from the right people

28:16

we've lived experience, I thought it

28:18

could change the world. Because for me, as

28:20

much it is about the recovery, the

28:22

biggest gap out there in a minute is

28:24

information and how you receive it because there's

28:27

lots out there like Google, YouTube,

28:30

but how do you find that information? And I

28:32

was thinking about that That's it for me. Especially, you know,

28:34

I said about ten year for ten years. People

28:36

are year and two years and three years, four years.

28:38

They're not gonna go to a doctor. They're not. So

28:40

where do they go at the minute? You go on Google. I

28:43

don't know, man. I don't know.

28:45

Go ahead, Dave. Yeah. But at Google,

28:47

unbelievable. Right? Unbelievable business. However,

28:50

it can set you down a bit of a rabbit, Warren.

28:52

And is it curated for mental health?

28:54

If you put in what is depression

28:56

in Google and the Mini get three point two billion

28:59

hits. Right? And then, obviously, then it tears

29:01

it. The first five are

29:03

the most ranked. So the first one is NHS. Go

29:05

click on it. You've just got what is different

29:07

and it's just text for three pages.

29:10

And all we've got look at is how is everything moved

29:12

now? Social media, so it used to be Facebook.

29:15

So posting on a forum, advanced, then

29:17

what came?

29:17

Instagram. Pictures. I'm always a now

29:19

ticked off.

29:21

Yeah. That's right. if you Slo

29:23

that format reading some text and

29:25

in digesting it, no empathy.

29:28

How you read, it's very different to how it's written.

29:30

And then all that does, do you know what that does?

29:32

You've got another a hundred questions you wanna ask.

29:34

Yeah. So you go back to Google. Put it in another question.

29:37

Go somewhere else. And that was a problem

29:39

for me. And so that's why

29:41

I I came out with the concept of Jack about

29:44

immortalizing these lead. And the other thing, just

29:46

quickly sorry, these leading

29:48

experts, right, from a clinical

29:50

spirits perspective, you're not gonna get in front of

29:52

them. You're not gonna get their information,

29:54

which is gold dust. Slo imagine

29:56

that's what I think we have leading experts in one

29:58

place that e commerce is completely

29:59

free, get the right information. Yeah.

30:01

Slo me. I mean, III think the

30:03

trick really is that look at

30:05

my attempt to make the world better.

30:08

Right? I have endless

30:11

numbers of videos hours and

30:13

hours, thousands of hours of content

30:16

on YouTube, on the Internet, on

30:18

several websites, articles written about

30:20

my work, books out there. Right? And

30:22

I still get the question. I still

30:24

get people deaming

30:26

me. Okay? Saying, I

30:29

want to kill myself. can

30:33

I do? Right? It seems to

30:35

me that there is nowhere anywhere.

30:38

And by the way, I had shocking.

30:40

It was shocking yesterday I was having

30:43

a coffee with a friend and

30:46

he is part of a men's

30:48

circle. Right? So these are

30:50

twelve very high ranking,

30:53

very successfully executives. Right?

30:56

Business people, with the fancy cars.

30:58

So when they get together, there are

31:00

twelve fancy cars parked outside.

31:03

And he said last week's sessions

31:06

broke me down, I have to talk to you.

31:08

So I told him that's me for coffee,

31:10

and he tells me there were five of the

31:12

twelve executives that showed up

31:15

that day that have contemplated

31:17

suicide and

31:19

attempted suicide even

31:21

though their public image is incredibly

31:24

positive in credibly successful, conquer

31:27

all, win it all, and they are

31:29

breaking down to the points that they're contemplating

31:31

taking their lives and attempting to take their

31:33

life. Now the reality is

31:36

there is no place for for anyone

31:38

that gets to that stage to actually

31:42

find an answer. And if you go and search

31:44

Google and get on YouTube, I I

31:46

love Google and YouTube and what Google and YouTube

31:48

have done for us, but unless you really

31:50

know what you're doing and unless you're lucky

31:53

that day, you might end up giving up

31:55

basically. So when you showed

31:57

me Jack the idea of starting from

31:59

question is quite

32:01

remarkable. So give me few examples,

32:04

you know, some questions that you find people.

32:06

Yes, sir. Well, exactly what you said, we wanted to

32:08

I'm gonna create place where people come and just

32:10

type in or ask a question or put a

32:12

word in. So when you can come to Jack

32:15

and put in something like depression and you literally

32:17

get a list of all of our questions on the platform.

32:19

So there's over ten thousand questions

32:21

on the platform. Varying from all different types

32:23

of topics and

32:24

information. And then you can literally

32:26

just click on a question and get to the right

32:28

person to answer that question for you. How does

32:30

the person answer? So what we do

32:32

is prerecord -- Yeah. -- experts

32:34

or people who've lived experience. Right? So we've got experts

32:36

over here and people who've been through something. I

32:39

mean, from hundreds of questions, it's between

32:41

a hundred, a hundred and sometimes a little bit less,

32:44

about depression. Right? So put a simple

32:46

questions to these lead next. So what is depression

32:48

how do I know if I if I am depressed?

32:51

How can I support someone with depression? What

32:53

are the different types of medication for depression? What

32:55

are side effects of medication? So all of

32:57

those answers are in one form, someone

32:59

sat there in front of you. But instead of long form,

33:01

what you're saying, right, which is a lot of content

33:03

now, Go to YouTube as a video for, I don't

33:06

know, forty minutes of someone talking about depression.

33:08

People are lost like that, and you have to search

33:10

for the information that you're interested in.

33:12

So what this hopefully, what Jack is is a

33:14

user led platform where you get to the

33:16

right question and the right answer for

33:18

you. That is most important to you rather than

33:20

going onto YouTube to and put depression

33:23

in and watch a video for forty five minutes to

33:25

an hour of someone doing talk on

33:26

depression, where your question might

33:28

just be, how can I support someone? With

33:31

depression. How old are you when you can get the first?

33:33

Yeah. And so in that case, you'll

33:35

have two or three experts that have answered

33:37

a question like that in video and then

33:39

basically, they'll be talking to me

33:41

sort of and selling that to us. Yeah. And the other thing for

33:43

me is that the way we film it is lot of

33:45

content now is off camera, so people aren't looking

33:48

directly at the camera, which is still great content.

33:50

But we feel that looking down the barrel of the camera, so

33:52

it feels like you're having a conversation with that person.

33:54

And the other thing for me is there's a lot of stuff

33:57

in the media a minute about mental health that we

33:59

need to talk. We get it, Moe. Right.

34:01

And that's what absolute. And that's all the messages

34:03

for the last fifteen years. You see documentaries. You

34:06

see

34:06

everything. And at the end, it's just we need to talk

34:09

where lot people aren't ready. So I

34:11

think Jack could be is that a place where people can go

34:13

to before they're ready to have the conversation to

34:15

feel like they're having a conversation with someone. When

34:17

we met you, you were attempting to so

34:20

you had Jack dot org. What you showed

34:22

me was dot org. Right? And

34:24

your dream, your attempt was I'm

34:26

going to help millions and millions and millions and

34:28

free of people come to this place. It's

34:30

all volunteers. I think at the time you had

34:32

like sixty or sixty five experts some

34:35

very famous footballers and some

34:37

very, very deep clinicians or

34:39

psychologists or therapists and so

34:41

on and so forth. What was your vision for

34:43

that? I mean, what was your expectation? How would you

34:46

have kept this topic? So what the

34:48

reason I came out of it is because of warping,

34:50

of course, those people reaching out. So my main thing

34:52

one was, let's talk about big

34:54

organizations quickly. So I think there's a lot

34:56

organizations out there. Who do things

34:58

to tick a box. Yeah. So the

35:01

you know, they become a a billion town organization.

35:03

So we must do something to

35:06

give back. Let's I know, let's donate

35:08

one percent of our profits to a foundation

35:10

or create our own foundation. Yeah. Yeah,

35:12

mate. Yeah. Because I know

35:14

that. It's it's it's it's a one percent on the bottom

35:17

line out of our profit. You give it to someone

35:19

who creates a foundation. No cap at all involved.

35:21

Okay. The foundation does great work. They're they're

35:23

just doing it to tick a box. So I felt little bit

35:25

like that with War Paint. If I was doing this, I was

35:27

selling this product, but I wasn't doing

35:29

anything. I was talking about mental health, I was doing nothing

35:31

to get people's mind right.

35:33

So what I the concept job is it's gotta be

35:35

free for everyone because that's

35:38

Slo the whole when

35:40

I started it, I wanna do it as a charity.

35:42

Yeah. I'm like, well, it's gotta be a charity.

35:45

It's a charity. So got this concept, but

35:47

like anything you need money. And especially

35:49

the scale and the depth I wanna do with

35:51

this technology, I wanted to build, like,

35:54

filming these experts, there's a lot of sweat capital

35:56

involved. So I want

35:58

it to be free, always free, but I soon came

36:00

to a bit of a hole where going

36:02

out like this, now asking for money to

36:04

charity. It's not gonna work anymore.

36:06

It did work for long time. But so

36:09

that would move move it into a natural business,

36:11

but the platform is always gonna be free

36:13

because until you

36:15

now make the feeling of what you get when you're helping

36:18

that many people

36:19

is just our ways -- Absolutely. -- our ways.

36:21

Yeah. mean, I I struggled with that myself

36:23

because when I started one billion happy

36:25

dot org. The immediate thing that

36:28

happened, of course, because of my background and

36:30

my network and my connection is that I started

36:32

to get donors coming to me and saying, okay.

36:34

So can we contribute to one billion

36:37

happy dot org? And as

36:39

a sort of tax write

36:41

off for most of them, basically, suggest

36:43

we know you, we think you're gonna do well.

36:45

And that really was something I

36:47

did not accept because I've worked with

36:49

many, many dogs in my life. They're nonprofits.

36:52

And for most of them eventually

36:55

it becomes eighty percent

36:57

of your effort to go out and raise funding.

37:00

Right? Eighty percent of your team

37:02

is out there trying to raise funding, which

37:04

makes the funding effectiveness

37:07

quite questionable when you think about it because

37:09

eighty percent is just spent

37:12

on making, creating more funds.

37:14

And in my view that that's

37:16

not a very effective way of surviving. And

37:18

when I worked at Google, what Google

37:20

used to say is you

37:22

know, we change the world,

37:25

not as a charity. We change the

37:27

world by creating things that

37:29

help the world become better. Right? How

37:31

do you create those things? Why being

37:33

a successful business that's bringing enough

37:35

revenue that allows you to put enough

37:37

money into R and D and so on and so forth?

37:39

And so when we met, I was

37:42

pushing back against that idea of a

37:44

charity. Right? Even if it if

37:46

you have the lineup of sponsors, like

37:49

what I did with one billion happy is

37:51

I decided, no, I'm not gonna accept any money

37:53

from anyone. I'm going to contribute

37:55

to one billion happy as a way of making

37:57

sure that one billion happy's

38:00

effort is entirely focused

38:02

on the purpose, not on raising money. Okay?

38:04

And I'll raise the money know, sometimes

38:06

when I do a talk at the corporate or whatever,

38:08

I'm get I'm being paid a lot of money can

38:10

contribute to one billion happy as a result.

38:13

What's your answer now? With Jack what

38:15

are you what are you trying to do so

38:17

that you create a sustainable form

38:19

of business that is at the same time

38:21

committed to being available for

38:24

free to

38:24

everyone. So for me, exactly what

38:26

you said. And I was naive to it at the beginning

38:29

about creating this charity and I thought that's what

38:31

you have.

38:31

The most committed visionaries actually

38:34

come across as naive. That's not at all naive.

38:36

That's that's optimism about life

38:39

I see. Yeah. And it hit me square

38:41

in the face like all I'll be doing is raising money and

38:43

not moving this business. So what

38:45

is now is we're gonna create a business that's gonna

38:47

change the world and but we need to just make money

38:49

change the world the dot org, which

38:51

is this free site, it's always gonna be free. Right?

38:53

People can access it. It's well from information.

38:56

But what we're doing is we're monetizing

38:58

over here in different ways. So there's a couple of

39:01

things we're doing. So we're learning some big contracts

39:03

with some big organizations around creating

39:05

these conversations in their workplace, but

39:08

to sell products. Right?

39:10

So organizations are paying us. Create this amazing

39:12

conversation to sell products and we're helping them with content

39:14

to deliver that. And we've also, just

39:16

about to launch in June this year, a workplace version

39:19

of Jack. on Jack

39:21

dot org, so imagine the dot

39:23

org site but workplace related because

39:25

there's the same issue There's happening

39:28

here in the free world, right, under

39:30

org, where mental health information is exactly

39:32

the same in workplace. So in workplace,

39:34

well-being, There's lots of apps out there

39:36

and business is spending lot of money. No

39:38

one uses them. No one understands them.

39:40

And it's almost a tick box to put them in.

39:43

So we're having conversations all of

39:45

our workplace, like how we're returning from

39:47

maternity. Conversations

39:49

all day. So we'll be selling that. We are now into corporates.

39:53

What's really nice when we're speaking to corporates, they love

39:55

the free site. They're blown away by it. And

39:57

it's almost there you want this for their

39:59

work staff because they also know they can help their customers

40:02

because they're helping us on the dog. So the

40:04

dog is always gonna be this free platform, free

40:06

access, giving information

40:09

to the people that need it. And then, I'll be honest, I'm

40:11

making money over here. Because I need to do

40:13

this. Absolutely. I'm not I'll be honest.

40:15

I don't enjoy

40:16

this. I don't this. Mhmm. I know

40:18

it sounds delicious. Yeah. But I don't enjoy

40:20

it. I actually just did that conversation couple

40:22

of days ago, you know, someone was telling

40:24

me, Moe, you're not really putting

40:27

yourself out there like the other

40:29

happiness teachers and you should build

40:31

the brand this way and you should do that

40:33

that way. And I'm like, I don't enjoy this.

40:36

I really don't. I just want to deliver

40:38

the result, but you're absolutely right.

40:41

There is a need for

40:43

for you to have the corporates sponsors.

40:46

It's a bit like what I do with speaking engagements.

40:48

Right? So I'm I publicly tell everyone,

40:50

look, if you're funded organization

40:53

that is profitable and you want me to come and speak

40:55

to your team, pay me. Right?

40:57

If you are a none for profit

40:59

or if you are an event that's open to

41:01

the public or if you are a a webinar

41:04

that's, you know, going to reach a thousand people

41:06

and you're not gonna make money on it, I'll come

41:08

for free. Absolutely. Right? So from

41:10

one side, I want you to I want

41:12

the message to reach as as many people as

41:14

I can. But at at the same time, if

41:16

you're a profitable business, it doesn't

41:18

make sense for me to put my effort

41:20

and cost to travel to you and so on

41:22

and you don't pay, I'll take that money

41:24

and then channel it to the free efforts

41:27

that I am attempting to grow

41:29

one billion happy now. There is, however,

41:31

a very big crisis of

41:33

mental health and well-being in

41:35

corporates, in general. So when you started

41:38

to approach organizations, what did you feel

41:40

was the It's a cookie

41:41

cutter. What's happening here? Yeah. So

41:44

it's exactly the same most Slo in the free world,

41:46

like you call in the dog platform, it's the ten

41:48

years. People go to hit crisis, and there's

41:50

a lot of support out there crisis. Right? There's

41:52

call lines, text lines, services, NHS,

41:55

help his stuff to make you better.

41:57

But where's the gap here, which is missing is where's

41:59

the information. It's the same in

42:02

corporates. Right? They've got a lot of apps there.

42:04

Utilization's five percent. Five

42:06

percent. Because all these apps they spend money

42:08

on, it's the same people using the same apps, by the

42:10

way. So ninety five percent of

42:12

workforce and average don't even use these things

42:14

as spending money on. I'm saying because you're missing

42:16

the point, you need something here for

42:18

people to access to get information then

42:20

they go and use these resources and try and get them to

42:22

earlier because what's happening in workplace, people don't

42:25

use the apps until they hit crisis. Yeah.

42:27

Right? And then they go and use them. So what I wanna do in

42:29

the workplace is the same we're doing here. Give

42:31

the information here. So people use these services,

42:33

which we're paying for earlier and

42:36

use them more. And since we spoke to the corporates,

42:38

they just blown away because they know they know

42:41

that's problem. Right? They've got some of these big organizations

42:43

have well-being teams Yeah. And do you

42:45

know what it's all about? Activation, engagement,

42:48

and how to do it in a minute? People aren't interested,

42:50

whether it's an app over here for menopause or

42:52

I don't need that. Oh, there's an app over here

42:54

for mindfulness. Why don't I need that? Well,

42:56

imagine where we come, Jack, was this great new

42:58

platform for well-being. We've got loads of conversations on

43:00

there from leading experts the world about how to set

43:02

your desk at home, how to mindset

43:05

about time

43:05

blocking, about they use this

43:07

and go, oh,

43:09

I need mindfulness, and then they would go and

43:11

use it. The same here, mate. I want to do

43:13

Jack. It's the people to come to

43:15

these platforms, ask some questions

43:17

and I'll tell you what will happen. They'll go,

43:20

I think I feel a little bit like that. Actually,

43:22

I'm gonna know because I've spoke to someone about it and

43:24

understand it. I'm gonna go and reach out because

43:27

Well, the problem with NHS is all about prevention.

43:29

Everything you look at in medical care is about

43:31

prevention because it saves money. Well,

43:33

it's all about money. For the NHS. So

43:36

how do we save money in the NHS? It's not put

43:38

more resources here. It's about getting people

43:40

to reach out earlier. Cancer. Right? If

43:42

we can catch people here, it's gonna cost us less

43:44

money. To make them better here. Same

43:46

with mental health. We need people to

43:48

reach out earlier. And that whole message

43:51

of just need to talk and gonna cut it mate.

43:53

Because a lot of people over here aren't. So I want Jack

43:55

to be this platform. Why aren't they certainly gonna come

43:57

on it and go, oh, I've got something wrong with

43:59

me. It's like, oh, Slo. Right?

44:02

We've got whole conversations and then about sleep.

44:04

People don't underestimate Slo. Right?

44:07

About didn't know about it till we did a conversation

44:09

that Six hours straight is

44:11

better than nine hours broken sleep. Simple.

44:14

Right? Okay. Going to bed at the same time

44:16

while I camp at the same

44:16

time. Little tips like that.

44:19

People come to our platforms. They didn't know that.

44:21

They make the the change here instead

44:23

of waiting till they have insomnia and go to

44:25

the doctor and have some pills. Slo the

44:27

idea here is is you're constantly focused

44:30

on that ten year thing, which by the way I didn't

44:32

know. So the idea of if

44:34

I can get to know my challenge early

44:37

and I can start to have a

44:39

discrete conversation with someone

44:41

that has responded to my question before,

44:44

then I may not end up

44:46

killing myself with stress

44:48

or with mental health issues

44:50

and so on and then eventually need an

44:52

intervention because it's too late for imagine

44:54

me, mate. Yeah. Imagine my situation. Yeah.

44:56

Imagine me at fifteen or sixteen. It's been turning

44:59

on. I ain't going out, but I can imagine this is cool.

45:01

The other thing, mate, what we're gonna do is make the coolest pattern,

45:03

map that a minute off brand on a planet because

45:05

that's what's missing. There's a lot of amazing stuff

45:07

out there for mental health, but because it's

45:09

not relevant, it's not cool, It's

45:12

not brand. There's no meant for me

45:14

to mentor. If you create a brand,

45:16

right, that is people will trust and think it's

45:18

got a cool Etsy brand doing stuff. Imagine

45:20

me at fifteen sixteen going on that jack

45:22

and then maybe asking some questions going,

45:24

oh, a fifteen sixteen

45:26

understanding, I might have this BDD. Because

45:29

I'm doing the same things that person is telling me, what

45:31

a doctor is saying, I tick every box.

45:34

I'm not going to look into that, I'm going to speak to someone about

45:36

it. If I don't know it's sixteen, seventeen, eighteen,

45:38

promise probably wouldn't be sat here and out, right,

45:40

because of the bad thing. But -- Yeah. -- I'm telling you if

45:42

I'd because the only thing that well, anytime I got to

45:45

understand it, I hit crisis, then I started looking

45:47

into it. Understanding it. So imagine me at

45:49

sixteen seventeen, going to this cool

45:51

little platform going, oh, I'm telling

45:53

you now we've changed my life because I know

45:55

because anything eating disorders, we've got Janet

45:57

Treasure on Jack. Right? She's just been classed as the world

45:59

leader or the world leader, professor.

46:02

And when she came to meet me, two things

46:04

that that hit me square in the face. One,

46:07

the most important thing about end disorders

46:09

is not therapy. Right? The

46:11

five people supporting them to know

46:14

how to support that person. I

46:16

know that for a fact. Right? Yeah.

46:18

Right. So that's why she's doing all and all

46:20

of these dots coming up for free on our platform because

46:22

they they wanna change the world. And she said your

46:24

platform is the first of ever sin because it's not just about

46:26

people having an eating disorder problem.

46:29

Right? And going to our platform, imagine

46:31

a mum or my mum when I'm

46:33

smashing my loom up, ripped my t shirts

46:35

off, where's my mum going? She's

46:37

not going to a doctor to speak about it. She's not speaking to a friend

46:39

about it. Imagine she knows this platform called Jack's got all

46:41

this cool stuff on it and I can speak to people. I'm

46:43

telling you now my mom can go on, ask questions about

46:45

how to support someone. We've changed her life,

46:47

and we've changed in a way changed mine.

46:50

The other thing Janet said was on eating

46:52

disorders, like at ten years, I say,

46:54

the longer someone has an eating disorder, directly

46:57

coincides with the recovery period.

47:00

And I was like, so if you get someone who's

47:02

six months in a year end recovery -- Yeah. -- someone

47:04

who's been doing for eight

47:05

years, ten years, said that's the problem. Yeah.

47:07

I I actually I hosted just a a couple

47:09

of weeks ago, a few weeks ago, Alia,

47:11

who who was a speech therapist, and

47:13

she basically was saying that the biggest,

47:16

biggest, biggest success factor is

47:18

from the time your child has a

47:20

speech impediment, to the time you

47:22

bring him to the therapist. If it exceeds

47:25

two years, your chances of

47:27

recovery are, you know, declined very,

47:30

very drastically. So taking a

47:32

quick interaction or getting

47:34

to know about it, understanding it, you know,

47:36

why is my child stuttering, for

47:38

example.

47:40

Within the first two years and then taking them

47:42

to a special This is this one here. You just

47:44

talked about this bit. Yeah. When

47:46

people don't know what they've got, or what

47:48

understands.

47:48

Exactly going at the minute. That's the put even that

47:51

person is saying is what we're trying to do, Jack,

47:53

is to create that void. Yeah. That's the

47:55

biggest everyone say that's the biggest thing in it in

47:57

a

47:57

minute. Where is there just pure information

47:59

that's wholesome, easy to access quick?

48:02

I don't think there's anything on in the world. Yeah.

48:04

That's why I thought. I'll put my

48:06

effort and and time and money behind

48:09

this. So something I never

48:11

understood and you explained to me

48:13

recently was I

48:15

never understood how you picked the people

48:18

you, you know, the experts, the teachers,

48:20

if you want, on Jack. Some

48:22

of them are footballers and

48:24

others are resters and

48:26

others are

48:27

musicians. And why are those

48:29

people they're talking about? Well-being

48:31

and mental health. we got three for me,

48:34

three different types of people. Right? So you got one's

48:36

professors. So this is clinical information.

48:38

That is given in a really good way in there that

48:40

these are top top top of the argument lies how

48:43

good these doctors were right. Yeah.

48:45

Until we had some doctors come in and

48:47

say, you do realize you've got the Avengers of

48:49

healthcare. And because these

48:52

are like gods in healthcare. So they give you

48:54

really good clinical advice like, what is

48:56

depression? What is it? How? What medication

48:58

side effects? That's really important.

49:00

But what's more important for me? More is

49:03

people with lift experience. Alright. So

49:05

because the clinical's great. But if you ask one of

49:07

our thoughts on there for BDD, he's Professor Davidville,

49:09

amazing Gawdat. it like to have BDD?

49:12

His answer is, I don't actually know

49:14

why you're going to ask

49:14

Danny.

49:15

Yeah. Right? Because they don't know what it actually feels like. And

49:17

sometimes that that's the disparity sometimes with

49:19

people about doctors -- Yeah. -- but they don't

49:21

know how I feel. They're telling me stuff. Yeah.

49:24

So what we wanted to do is get people who've lived experience.

49:26

But for me, We've got people in

49:28

there, you would never know. We've got amazing

49:30

stories. Doing amazing things in the space.

49:32

Right? They're running twenty marathons because they

49:34

lost someone to suicide. They're when they're talking

49:37

about losing someone to suicide.

49:39

But then we have got some very big names

49:42

on there because we sort of talk

49:44

about creating like I don't call it

49:46

a cool brand, but a brand. I'm

49:48

gonna use analogy. Right? Sixteen

49:50

year old lad. Right? Is it school,

49:52

pays football? Not here in world. Imagine

49:55

he comes on to a platform like, oh, he's got all these experts,

49:57

which is great, but maybe he's not gonna go straight into

49:59

an expert because he's not comfortable. Imagine if

50:02

he sees someone that he knows

50:04

is that, oh my god, that person's on his next

50:06

foot below or a foot below, talking about

50:08

mindset, talking about,

50:10

oh, let you add addiction. I'm gonna

50:12

ask him some questions. Oh, okay. Well, he

50:14

was very successful, but he was but

50:17

he had something. Okay. But then they

50:19

go and explore on our platform. So we've

50:21

got UFC fighters on there, we've got

50:24

Alastair Campbell, and they're David Hair with the actor,

50:27

talking about his so I've got a breakdown. And

50:29

this is for me is to break down barriers around

50:31

what people think mental health is.

50:33

To people If you say someone put mental

50:36

health, they think it's someone I'm not I'm gonna use

50:38

someone dressed in a straight jacket who's ill

50:40

and get

50:41

no. Like, we've got a range of people

50:43

on there who you would never think. And

50:45

then you got lost. I love that. I mean,

50:47

it reminds me of one of my absolute

50:50

favorite conversations on on slow mo

50:52

here. I hosted Ruby Wax. I'm

50:54

sure you know Ruby. So Ruby is

50:56

for those who have not listened to the episode

50:58

as a as a comedian basically

51:00

that constantly makes fun of

51:03

her own mental health issues. And

51:05

and I and I remember I asked her and

51:07

I and I spoke about depression and

51:09

And she said, Moe, have you ever really

51:11

struggled with the question? And I said, yeah, at a younger

51:13

age. And she said, you know, how does that

51:16

feel like and I, you know, I am

51:18

reflecting, and she said, it's like

51:20

someone cuts your skull open

51:23

and filled your entire body with

51:25

concrete. Okay? And I have actually

51:27

rarely ever heard someone put it so

51:31

visually accurate as, you know,

51:33

this is exactly how I felt which by

51:35

the way, is truly how a lot of the

51:37

time when we're depressed. This is how we feel. We're

51:39

unable to do anything. We don't want to get up. We're

51:41

unable to think. We're unable to, you

51:43

know, to interact. But that idea of

51:45

getting someone who's lived it and

51:48

also someone who's a celebrity

51:50

in the public eye that you can actually

51:52

say, I trust that this person has found

51:54

a way through this. It's very surprising

51:57

idea. Yeah. Slo what you said, the other thing

51:59

I'll flip on that. Right? So a lot of people

52:01

in my mind say, I'm depressed. Learn.

52:04

And what what was interest me with a doctor,

52:07

Paul Gilbert? One of the questions is, I

52:09

don't know if I'm depressed. Right? Or do I

52:11

know it's actually a very good How do I know?

52:13

And his answer blew me away because he said

52:15

a lot of people think they have depressed

52:17

or depression, but a lot of the time they're just un happy

52:19

at that point. Mhmm. And there's a big differentiator,

52:22

right, where people and I think sometimes people

52:24

think they're depressed. And then that

52:26

spoils you into a worse

52:28

mindset?

52:28

Well, actually, if you go and ask these experts, well,

52:30

look, do you know depression? This is what it actually

52:33

does to you? Oh. Oh, actually, I might not have

52:35

depression

52:35

then. I might just be --

52:36

I understand. -- your

52:38

mindset goes from, you

52:40

know, so there's that flip, but that people

52:42

the lived with, we get more interaction

52:45

on lived with experience conversations

52:48

than the doctors. Yeah. And people are more blown

52:50

away with that because it gives hope and

52:52

it gives someone, oh my god, he feels

52:54

like I do. It's normal. And it gives

52:56

you hope like that conversation

52:58

I have with that husband and girlfriend

53:01

and boyfriend. I it gave

53:03

him hope because he knew I was in

53:05

that position and actually I'm through it.

53:07

And I said, trust me, mate, I've been there.

53:10

I know exactly how you feel, it can get

53:12

better. And look, this is what I did to help me.

53:15

You know, he you're they messaged me next day. So

53:17

two days later, we've got more from that hour

53:18

review. Than the last two years.

53:21

Amazing. Denis, so we

53:23

speak about this a bit. This is a world

53:26

where every technology

53:29

out there has to start relying on artificial

53:31

intelligence a little bit. And,

53:33

you know, as much as I see the

53:35

humane side of the platform being

53:37

able to speak to an expert or someone who

53:40

lived the experience, even though you're not

53:42

speaking to them directly, but they're really answering

53:44

your question. Is wonderful, but

53:46

there is a tech element to what you're doing.

53:48

And you have a view of where

53:51

AI can come in to help Jack become

53:53

more effective. I ask that because I

53:55

invested heavily in Appi if you

53:57

if you remember, which was an attempt to

54:00

help people understand happiness using

54:02

artificial intelligence. And Sadly, I

54:04

invested really, really heavily a lot of time,

54:06

a lot of effort, and the software developers,

54:09

the company that we hired really disappointed us.

54:11

So eventually, we ended up you

54:13

know, not doing happy. But

54:16

in in a way, I'm still keen on

54:18

understanding if there is a way for

54:20

AI to help

54:20

us. Become happier. What do

54:22

you have in mind for that? It scares me

54:24

a little bit, mate.

54:25

If I'm gonna wanna talk about AI.

54:27

I know. Yeah. Because I

54:29

talked about this. I was just talking about last night. Right?

54:31

I think, you know, this whole explosion

54:34

in a minute about AI and chat, GBT, and

54:37

is scaring the hell out of a lot of people.

54:39

And I get it. One thing he's gonna do is gonna find

54:41

out the shit from the good -- Yeah. -- because

54:44

what's gonna happen but what's gonna happen now I can

54:46

create a brand in twenty four hours. Right?

54:48

I can let you go to website in forty eight hours,

54:50

drop ships and products in from anywhere. Create

54:52

website looks incredible. That no one

54:54

from the outside would know. Right? That's

54:56

it. It's just some blocking his bedroom, making

54:58

money. Five years ago, that's quite difficult

55:01

to do. Now it's easy to GBC. So people now gonna

55:03

look into organizations a lot more about

55:05

who are they? What's their story? What's their mission?

55:07

Where's their content or what they're doing? So I think

55:09

that's the positive. But with our

55:12

with the AI around Jack, right, this

55:14

whole search engine we've got, a

55:16

lot of people don't know what they're looking

55:18

for. Yeah. They don't know.

55:20

Like, that that I just don't know what I'm feeling.

55:23

I don't know. So imagine Jack

55:25

where we can take it of AI where someone could come on

55:27

the plaque form and just explore and

55:29

maybe answer few questions and we can feed

55:31

them up. Unbelievable answers but unbelievable

55:33

people. That can change their that's

55:36

all about how they're feeling, and you

55:38

could get one experts on over here, lived with

55:40

over here. And in twenty minutes and half an

55:42

hour of listening to this, change your mindset.

55:45

That is where our army can be very powerful

55:47

with Jack where we've got these amazing royal conversations

55:50

and not fake these are real people talking

55:52

to who's not edited, but

55:54

there's a way you can out of all of this shit

55:56

that's here. Ten thousand questions that'll be fifty

55:58

thousand, hundred thousand with us. I'm

56:01

just gonna use this AI that's gonna feed

56:03

me up the best answers for

56:04

me. I think that's a a beautiful

56:07

way of actually Understanding

56:09

what matters to humans is really where

56:11

AI, I think, accepts. As I speak about

56:13

it constantly and and scary smart,

56:16

the idea is to direct AI

56:19

to the applications that are

56:21

good for human happiness, good for

56:23

human well-being. And think that's

56:25

definitely how how we can

56:27

make AI care about us a little

56:29

more. I want to

56:32

thank you very much for

56:34

doing what you're doing. I I really, and

56:36

honestly, believe this could be a game changer.

56:39

I invite everyone of our listeners to go

56:41

and visit Jack of Oregon. Absolutely. Free,

56:44

a hundred percent remember, this

56:46

is early days of jacks. So we expect

56:48

a lot more as we go along. But what

56:50

you will see will blow you away. think

56:53

it's a it's a concept that I

56:55

personally believe will make finding

56:58

an answer to something

57:01

happen before ten years of

57:03

waiting when you're finally broken.

57:05

And I think it's really something

57:07

that for many of us is highly needed.

57:09

Even I frequently go to Jack

57:11

and just honestly ask a

57:13

question just for the curiosity of it

57:15

just to learn about it. Then you've

57:17

come a long way as a human through

57:20

those years. And I love your

57:22

vulnerability in terms of saying, I've never

57:24

really overcome my challenges

57:27

completely, but now I know where

57:29

it is. I know how to handle it. What's

57:31

your secret to happiness? What makes

57:33

you the person that I so

57:36

enjoyed spending time with.

57:40

Do you know what? It's like a people in here. It's

57:43

it's like if you support yourself if you surround

57:45

yourself with people who believe in you, change

57:48

everything, mate. That even you or he's

57:51

off camera, Steve, Ash. My

57:55

mom, you know, oh my

57:57

come across really confident and stuff when I happen

57:59

because I believe in Jack. Honestly,

58:01

if you can change the whole part, I doubt it for your

58:03

day and doubt myself. Every

58:05

day, you know, until you meet people

58:07

and that you say, no, you can't do it and you can't

58:09

do that.