0:00

It was George Kasuf's job to be nosy.

0:03

He was essentially a detective based

0:05

out of Washington, D.C. And

0:07

he had a very specific niche. What

0:10

I did, and it was pretty much a one-person

0:13

operation, was investigate

0:15

whoever would be nominated to the federal

0:18

courts. Kasuf

0:20

knew how to dig through a judge's professional past,

0:23

excavating their true beliefs from long-forgotten

0:26

rulings and speeches. A lot

0:28

of it was just going to the library

0:31

and also talking to lots of people.

0:34

That's what I think I was really good at, is just letting

0:36

people talk to me. That's at least what my boss

0:38

always thought, anybody will talk to you, George. He

0:41

worked for a progressive advocacy group

0:43

called the Alliance for Justice. And

0:46

in the late 80s and early 90s, with

0:48

Republicans controlling the White House, pretty

0:50

much every judge he vetted was conservative.

0:53

My job became simply to be

0:55

the early warning signal to

0:58

staffers on the Hill, specifically

1:00

Senate Judiciary Committee staffers. Kasuf's work

1:03

never stopped. There were dozens

1:05

of new nominees every year, but

1:07

there was one man he was really focused

1:09

on. I sort of became the walking

1:12

encyclopedia on Clarence Thomas.

1:15

By the time Thomas got nominated to

1:17

the Supreme Court in 1991, he'd

1:20

been touted as a top contender for a couple of

1:22

years. Kasuf had been on his trail

1:24

that whole time, building the case

1:27

that Thomas was a judicial extremist and

1:29

a disaster for civil rights. He

1:31

put everything he found into the world's most

1:34

comprehensive Clarence Thomas dossier.

1:36

I probably reviewed over

1:39

a million pages of documents. And

1:41

I would estimate that I

1:44

talked to over a hundred people, either

1:46

on the phone or face-to-face.

1:49

Once, Kasuf got the chance to

1:51

watch Thomas in action up close. A

1:53

Black leader had invited both men to come visit

1:55

her.

1:56

In that meeting, Thomas tried to sell

1:58

himself as a civil rights champion. champion.

2:01

And I'm starting to write things down. You know,

2:03

I'm thinking that's not true. That's not true.

2:05

That's not true. This man would

2:08

say anything to get ahead.

2:10

In the run up to Thomas's confirmation hearings,

2:13

Kasuf gave his dossier to anyone who would

2:15

take it. But

2:16

it didn't mean my research was now

2:18

closed. I just kept going, looking

2:21

for anything else that people wanted to send

2:23

me.

2:23

In July 1991, Kasuf was at a meeting when

2:27

he got a call from a friend.

2:28

He said, I got some information last night. I was

2:31

at a dinner party. And someone was there

2:33

who had a friend that worked with Clarence

2:36

Thomas who said she

2:38

had been sexually harassed by him when

2:41

she worked for him in DC. And

2:43

now she teaches law in Oklahoma.

2:46

I didn't have a name. I

2:49

didn't have a time or anything like that.

2:51

Before that phone call, Kasuf had never

2:54

heard anything about Clarence Thomas and sexual

2:56

harassment.

2:57

This was something he needed to check out. And

2:59

quickly,

3:00

Thomas's confirmation hearings were less than two

3:02

months away.

3:03

If I didn't have Google, I had lots

3:06

of phone books and directories. So

3:08

I went to a directory I had of all

3:10

law professors in the United States, looked

3:12

at the various law schools of Oklahoma,

3:15

found the name of some women, looked

3:17

at each one's biography. And I found, oh, she

3:19

was there at the Office of Civil Rights at the

3:21

Department of Education at the same time. Oh, and

3:24

she worked at the EEOC at the same time. And

3:26

here's her office phone number. And

3:28

that was it.

3:30

Her name is Anita Hill. This

3:34

is Slow Brand.

3:44

I'm your host,

3:46

Joel Anderson. That tip

3:49

about a law professor in Oklahoma was

3:51

just the beginning of a nationwide spectacle.

3:54

Anita Hill's accusations launched urgent

3:56

and heated conversations about racism

3:58

and sexual harassment.

3:59

They also stonked in anger and Clarence

4:02

Thomas that's never stopped reaching. This

4:05

today is a travesty.

4:08

I think that it is disgusting. The

4:10

Supreme Court is not worth it. No

4:13

job is worth it.

4:15

I have no personal vendetta against

4:18

Clarence Thomas. But

4:20

when I was asked by a representative

4:23

of this committee to report

4:26

my experience, I

4:28

felt that I had to tell the truth.

4:31

I could not

4:32

keep silent.

4:36

This is our season finale. Episode 4.

4:40

A National Disgrace.

4:49

This episode is brought to you by SAP. Welcome

4:52

to the window. The window of opportunity.

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5:24

Alright, so now let

5:26

me look a little bit from your

5:29

life and history. You are somewhat

5:31

of an enigma. Which brings

5:34

us to the question of what is the real Clarence

5:36

Thomas like? What will the real Clarence

5:38

Thomas do on the Supreme Court if he

5:41

is confirmed? I

5:43

am the real Clarence Thomas and

5:45

I don't know that I would call myself

5:47

an enigma. I'm just Clarence

5:50

Thomas.

5:53

When George Kasuf got a tip about Clarence

5:55

Thomas and sexual harassment. He felt like

5:57

he was racing against time. It took him

5:59

only.

5:59

two hours to figure out Anita Hill's name

6:02

and to pass it along to his boss. As soon

6:04

as he did, she gave him very clear

6:06

instructions. You are not talking

6:08

to her. You're not calling her. You're giving

6:11

this name to the Judiciary Committee. Kasuf

6:14

did as he was told and then he waited

6:16

and waited and waited.

6:18

We

6:20

were getting a little worried because now we're into

6:22

August and I would periodically check

6:25

in to see what was going on. Kasuf

6:27

was still in the dark when Thomas' confirmation

6:30

hearings got started on September 10, 1991.

6:34

Every day he went to Capitol Hill to watch

6:37

Thomas testify in person.

6:38

It was sort of like watching your team

6:41

slowly lose. Oh,

6:43

you just struck out with that question. You

6:45

let him slide right over this.

6:48

As you're sitting there, are you wondering

6:51

whether or not the Anita Hill allegations are going to come

6:53

up? Oh, God, yes.

6:55

Those allegations never did come up

6:57

and the hearings ended without much controversy

6:59

or suspense.

7:01

It looked like Clarence Thomas would be on the Supreme

7:03

Court for life, but then just

7:05

two days before the Senators were scheduled to cast

7:07

their votes, everything changed.

7:09

The shockwave reeling through Capitol

7:11

Hill. Switchboards were frantic with

7:13

calls from constituents with one opinion

7:16

or another on Judge Thomas or Professor Anita

7:18

Hill. Anita Hill. Anita Hill.

7:23

Anita Hill grew up on a farm in segregated

7:25

Oklahoma. The youngest of 13 children,

7:28

she was the valedictorian of her high school, graduated

7:31

from college with honors, and got her law

7:33

degree from Yale, Clarence Thomas' alma

7:35

mater. When Hill went to work for Thomas

7:37

in 1981, she thought he might become

7:40

her mentor, but two years later, she

7:42

ended up in the hospital with stress-related stomach

7:44

pains. Not long after that, she

7:47

left Washington, D.C. for good. For

7:50

almost a decade, Hill tried to put that

7:52

period of her life behind

7:53

her. In 1991, she

7:55

was living in her home state, working as a professor

7:58

at the University of Oklahoma Law School.

7:59

Then, her old boss

8:02

got nominated to the Supreme Court. Most

8:05

of the controversy over Clarence Thomas stems

8:07

from his stormy eight-year tenure as

8:09

head of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

8:12

That summer, Hill wrestled with whether

8:14

to come forward, which she didn't realize

8:16

is that the Senate Judiciary Committee already

8:18

had her name. When she did finally

8:21

hear from them, it was extremely late

8:23

in the game.

8:24

By the time Hill gave the committee a typewritten

8:27

statement, the hearings had been over

8:29

for three days, but Hill's allegations

8:32

revved everything back up again. The

8:34

substance of the information was really startling. That's

8:38

Mark Schwartz. In 1991,

8:40

he was a lawyer for the Judiciary Committee. One

8:43

of his jobs was investigating nominees.

8:46

You know, raise your eyebrows, like, wow, there's

8:48

a lot more work ahead for us. The

8:50

next step was figuring out what that work should

8:52

be. Should we be investigating?

8:54

Who's the best parties to do the investigation?

8:57

Should we get the FBI back in to do it?

8:59

The FBI did talk to Hill. They

9:02

also interviewed Clarence Thomas, who denied

9:04

everything. The public didn't know any

9:06

of this, but Joe Biden did. The

9:08

chairman of the Judiciary Committee weighed the

9:11

evidence and couldn't decide what to do.

9:14

For days, he'd dithered and did nothing,

9:16

but the media was about to force his hand.

9:20

A woman who served as personal assistant

9:22

to Clarence Thomas for over two years

9:25

has accused him of sexually harassing

9:27

her.

9:28

Anita Hill had given the Judiciary Committee

9:30

her statement on the condition it wouldn't

9:32

go to the press. NPR's Nina

9:35

Totenberg got her hands on it anyway.

9:37

Her story aired on Sunday morning, October

9:39

6th,

9:40

two days before the full Senate was scheduled

9:42

to vote on Clarence Thomas' nomination. According

9:45

to Hill's affidavit, Thomas soon began

9:47

asking her out socially and refused to

9:49

accept her explanation that she did not think

9:52

it appropriate to go out with her boss. The

9:54

relationship, she said, became even more

9:56

strained when Thomas, in work situations,

9:59

began to decide.

9:59

When Totenberg asked Phil for

10:02

an interview, she decided to go ahead. If

10:04

her story was going to be told, the public might as well

10:06

hear it from her. She

10:09

says she will always remember her last

10:12

conversation with Clarence Thomas at the EEOC. Well,

10:15

he made a statement about his

10:17

behavior that if

10:20

I ever did disclose it, it

10:22

would be enough to

10:25

ruin his

10:26

career. That

10:28

first report introduced Anita Hill to America.

10:32

It also made her a target. Her answering

10:34

machine was full of death and rape threats. This

10:37

was what she worried might happen if she came forward. But

10:40

it was too late for her to stop now.

10:45

Senator John Danforth knew that his protege

10:48

Clarence Thomas had been accused of sexual harassment.

10:51

But that late in the confirmation process,

10:53

Danforth thought it was no big deal.

10:55

He was wrong. And Thomas was

10:57

frantic. He was sobbing.

11:00

He said his life was ruined.

11:04

He was just destroyed. Just

11:07

absolutely destroyed.

11:09

He reached out during the time and said, man, this

11:12

is rough. That's Lester

11:14

Johnson, an old friend of Thomas's from

11:16

Savannah. I said, I know it's rough,

11:18

man. I said, but God is the best planner.

11:21

If it's as it meant to be, you're

11:23

going to be on that bench.

11:25

If it's not meant to be, you won't. As

11:28

old black folk used to say, give it to God,

11:31

give it to God.

11:34

I had the same phone number for many years.

11:37

So he reached me at a law school

11:39

where I was teaching. Thomas's

11:41

ex-girlfriend, Lillian McEwen, says

11:43

he called her in tears.

11:45

He said, why is she doing this? I don't

11:48

understand. Do you remember how the conversation

11:50

ended? I just said, I don't know.

11:55

In his autobiography, Thomas wrote that

11:57

he felt betrayed by Hill, who he had hired at the the

12:00

Department of Education and brought with him

12:02

to the EEOC. He also

12:04

worried that the media would accept her version

12:06

of events uncritically.

12:08

Thomas quickly released a sworn affidavit

12:11

in which he totally and unequivocally

12:13

denied Hill's allegations.

12:15

His conservative allies also went

12:17

to work on his behalf. We got to win

12:19

this by any means necessary, whatever

12:21

we got to do.

12:22

That's Thomas' longtime friend Armstrong

12:25

Williams. After Hill came forward,

12:27

he told the Wall Street Journal, there's a thin

12:29

line between her sanity and her insanity.

12:33

It was not time to be weak. It was not time

12:35

to feel sorry for yourself. We're at war.

12:38

That war was fought on television.

12:39

Aren't these crimes

12:42

without evidence, so to speak? It's a he

12:44

said, she said kind of situation. Well,

12:47

but faith, the woman's word is evidence.

12:49

And I think what we have to do is give that more value,

12:52

give that more weight.

12:53

There was also a battle on the Senate

12:55

floor. Democrat Barbara Mikulski,

12:58

one of only two women in the chamber, called

13:00

for a full investigation.

13:02

What disturbs me as

13:04

much as the allegations

13:06

themselves is that the United

13:09

States Senate appears not

13:11

to take the charge of

13:13

sexual harassment seriously.

13:18

Thomas is leading advocate John Danforth

13:20

fired back. It cannot

13:23

be true that

13:25

we are going to tolerate a situation

13:28

where anybody who wants to throw the

13:30

mud gets to throw the

13:33

mud. And if it sticks, that's

13:35

just wonderful.

13:37

I mean, I was mad. That

13:40

was really mad.

13:42

Danforth believed that the Thomas he knew

13:45

would never harass anyone.

13:47

I wanted him to win, not just

13:50

because I wanted to be on the Supreme Court.

13:52

That seemed beside the point. But

13:55

I wanted him to have

13:57

some sense of indication and restructure.

13:59

restored pride.

14:02

But it wasn't clear how to get him that vindication.

14:06

An immediate vote without reopening the hearings

14:08

might help Thomas because his confirmation

14:10

it seemed like a shoe in. Or maybe

14:13

it would hurt him since he wouldn't get a chance

14:15

to rebut Anita Hill publicly.

14:18

The Senate's leaders have been meeting all afternoon

14:20

trying to decide how to proceed, but

14:22

there's so much confusion here now because

14:24

of all these counter charges and charges no

14:26

one can say for sure what's about to happen.

14:29

The truth was Thomas and his

14:31

defenders weren't in control. In 1991,

14:34

the Democrats had a big majority of the Senate, 57

14:37

seats to the Republicans

14:40

That meant they had most of the power if

14:42

the chairman of the Judiciary Committee wanted to use

14:45

it. But Joe Biden had been slow to

14:47

act ever since Anita Hill came forward. And

14:49

now he was desperate to find some kind

14:51

of compromise.

14:53

In the beginning, voting against Judge

14:55

Thomas was considered a very dangerous

14:57

vote politically. Now it appears voting

14:59

for him is dangerous. So the Senate,

15:02

I think, is looking for a safe way out.

15:04

Biden decided to reopen the hearings almost

15:06

immediately on Friday, October 11th. Clarence

15:10

Thomas and Anita Hill would both testify.

15:12

And then no matter what, the Senate would

15:14

vote on Thomas's confirmation four days

15:16

later. Those ground rules guaranteed

15:19

that there would be no comprehensive investigation.

15:22

The Democrats were really completely

15:25

outmaneuvered by the Republicans. That's

15:28

Jill Abramson, the coauthor of Strange

15:30

Justice. She says that

15:32

wasn't the end of Biden's concessions. He

15:34

also agreed to limit the scope of the hearings.

15:37

The senators could only ask about sexual

15:40

harassment, not anything else about Thomas's

15:42

personal conduct. And while Thomas

15:45

was protected and bubble wrapped,

15:48

there were no ground rules for Anita

15:50

Hill.

15:51

And there was one more thing. Thomas

15:53

would testify first and last.

15:55

Please speak before Hill and have the last

15:58

word.

16:00

On the morning of October 11th, Clarence

16:02

Thomas and his wife, Jenny, headed to John

16:04

Danforth's Senate office.

16:06

In the hours before the hearing, Danforth

16:09

led the couple and his wife, Sally, in prayer,

16:11

and then he had another idea.

16:13

So I said at the end, this might

16:15

seem corny to you, but follow

16:17

me.

16:18

Danforth led them into the bathroom, where

16:21

the acoustics were better. I had a tape

16:23

machine and I had teed up a

16:26

Mormon Tabernacle choir

16:29

singing Onward Christian Soldiers.

16:32

Onward Christian soldiers

16:37

marching us to

16:39

war. He was holding my hand, we were

16:41

all for holding hands, and his

16:44

eyes were closed. It

16:48

was an effort to try to strengthen

16:50

him. That

16:52

wasn't the only effort to lift Thomas'

16:54

spirits during the hearings. Busloads

16:56

of conservative activists came to Washington

16:59

to show their support. Jenny

17:01

Thomas talked about that in a 2020 documentary.

17:04

And we came out of Senator Danforth's

17:06

office and we were going down the hallway

17:09

and all these people were clapping and

17:12

very excited.

17:17

And he said to me, who are those

17:20

people? And I said, I think they're

17:22

angels. Good

17:28

morning, Judge. If you have

17:30

an opening statement, please proceed. Mr.

17:35

Chairman, Senator

17:37

Thurmond, members of the

17:39

committee, as

17:41

excruciatingly difficult as

17:44

the last two weeks have been, I

17:47

welcome the opportunity to

17:49

clear my name today.

17:52

his

18:00

integrity and his character had all

18:02

been harmed.

18:03

There is nothing this committee, this

18:06

body, or this country can do

18:09

to give me my good name back. Confirm

18:13

me if you want. Don't

18:15

confirm me if you are so led, but

18:19

let this process end. After

18:22

less than an hour, Clarence Thomas was done.

18:25

But the day was just getting started. Welcome

18:28

Professor Hill. At 11

18:31

30 a.m. Anita Hill took Clarence Thomas's

18:33

place at the witness table.

18:35

I instruct the officers do not

18:37

let anyone in or out of that

18:39

door while Professor Hill was making her statement.

18:42

Hill wore a bright blue linen seat and

18:44

stared straight ahead into the flashing cameras.

18:47

Professor, do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing

18:50

but the truth will help you God? I do.

18:52

Thank you. Professor Hill, please

18:56

make whatever statement you would wish to make to

18:58

the committee. It

19:01

is only after a great deal of

19:03

agonizing consideration and sleepless

19:06

nights that I am able to talk

19:09

of these unpleasant matters to anyone

19:12

but my close friends.

19:14

Hill ran through her allegations from beginning

19:16

to end, how Thomas had asked her to

19:18

go out with him, how he pressured her

19:21

even when she'd said no,

19:22

how over and over again he'd called

19:24

her into his office and steered their conversations

19:27

to sex.

19:28

He spoke about acts that he had

19:30

seen in pornographic films involving

19:33

such matters as women having sex with

19:35

animals and films showing group

19:38

sex or rape scenes.

19:40

On other occasions he

19:43

referred to the size of his own penis

19:45

as being larger than normal

19:47

and he also spoke on some occasions

19:50

of the pleasures he had given to

19:52

women

19:52

with

19:54

oral sex. Oh

19:57

my god, oh my god, and here I'm

19:59

thinking. with every detail that

20:01

she's offering. What

20:03

the hell did I do? George

20:06

Kasu's tip about Anita Hill had led

20:08

indirectly to all of this. Kasu

20:11

stood in the back of the hearing room, transfixed.

20:14

The whole world was hearing about testimony

20:17

dealing with a nominee to

20:19

the Supreme Court and his genitals. As

20:22

she talked, everyone was quiet.

20:26

Hill said that Thomas would comment on what

20:28

she was wearing and whether it made her more

20:31

or less sexually attractive. She

20:33

also described a peculiar incident

20:35

involving Thomas in a soda can.

20:38

He got up from the table at

20:40

which we were working, went over

20:43

to his desk to get the Coke,

20:46

looked at the can, and asked, who

20:48

has put pubic hair on my Coke?

20:52

Her testimony was so detailed

20:54

that I found it, as a reporter,

20:57

credible.

20:58

Jill Abramson was also in the hearing

21:00

room that day.

21:01

I went to lunch with my Wall

21:04

Street Journal colleague. And as we

21:06

chatted, I mean, both of us were saying,

21:08

like,

21:08

how does Clarence Thomas survive?

21:12

There's no way they

21:14

can vote to confirm him after this.

21:17

That was the mood. And if it took her

21:19

testimony for them to finally realize

21:22

that this man is unfit for judicial

21:24

office, so be it.

21:26

It wasn't just that Hill was laying out all

21:29

those damning details. She also

21:31

maintained her composure during hours

21:33

of cross-examination. Her main interrogator

21:36

on the Republican side was Pennsylvania's

21:38

Arlen Spector.

21:40

You took it to mean that

21:44

Judge Thomas wanted to have sex with

21:46

you. But in fact,

21:48

he never did ask you to have sex, correct?

21:50

No, he did not ask me to have sex. He

21:53

did continually pressure me to

21:55

go out with him, continually. And

21:57

he would not accept my explanation

21:59

as a

21:59

one is being valid. So

22:03

that when you said you took it to mean,

22:05

we ought to have sex, that that was an inference

22:08

to you, Drew. Yes.

22:10

A former prosecutor, Spector

22:12

pushed Hill on the minor inconsistencies

22:14

between her testimony and which she told

22:17

the FBI. But it wasn't just the

22:19

Republicans who were asking probing

22:21

questions. Again, it's

22:23

difficult, but for the record, what was the

22:25

content of what he said? Joe

22:27

Biden spent a good chunk of his allotted

22:29

time asking Hill to spell

22:32

out everything Thomas had done to her.

22:34

And he used the

22:37

name that he had been referred to in

22:39

the pornographic material.

22:44

Do you recall what it was? Yes,

22:47

I do. The name

22:49

that was referred to was Long

22:51

Donk Silver. I'll

22:55

be honest, as a 13-year-old kid watching the hearings, I thought

22:57

that moment was hilarious. All of these

22:59

very serious adults in a very

23:01

serious-looking room having an incredibly

23:04

serious conversation about Long Donk Silver. In

23:08

my defense, I

23:09

was just a kid, and I didn't know what sexual

23:11

harassment meant or how serious it was. But

23:15

I wasn't the

23:16

only one laughing. Here's how Saturday Night Live

23:18

kicked off that weekend. The

23:20

committee calls its next witness. Sir,

23:25

would you please state your name? Long Donk Silver.

23:32

In the early 90s, Anita Hill was up against a

23:35

culture that barely recognized workplace sexual misconduct. A

23:38

big problem is

23:39

the way some men and women view the same

23:41

situation. In the case

23:43

of Judge Thomas, that's something that happened 10 years ago,

23:45

allegedly happened 10 years ago, I think to

23:47

bring it up now is completely different. I

23:51

don't think there is any man who can actually

23:54

feel what a woman feels if she

23:57

perceives herself as having been harassed.

23:59

In the Senate Judiciary Committee, there was

24:02

no difference in how men and women viewed things.

24:05

That's because there were no women on the committee

24:07

at all.

24:07

In skepticism about sexual harassment

24:10

crossed party lines, Dennis DeConcini,

24:12

a Democrat from Arizona, said there was

24:15

ample cause to question Hill's credibility.

24:17

If you're sexually harassed, you ought to get mad about it,

24:20

and you ought to do something about it, and you ought to complain. Instead

24:23

of hanging around a long time, and

24:25

then all of a sudden calling up anonymously and

24:27

saying, oh, I want to complain.

24:30

Anita Hill's testimony was broadcast

24:32

live on all three major networks, plus

24:34

C-SPAN, CNN, and Court TV.

24:37

But Clarence Thomas refused to look at any of

24:39

it.

24:39

After he read his statement on Capitol Hill, Thomas

24:42

had gone home to suburban Virginia.

24:44

That afternoon, he paced around the house,

24:47

while his wife Jenny tuned in and gave

24:49

him updates. He had to respond

24:53

that day.

24:54

In the early evening, John Danforth

24:56

called Thomas back to his office.

24:58

The doors were closed, and the lights were turned

25:00

down low, so Thomas could relax and

25:03

think. He was searching for just the

25:05

right words, something that would convey

25:07

his anger and unsettle his critics.

25:10

He's on a couch, and I'm in a chair,

25:12

and nobody else was in the room, just

25:14

the two of us.

25:16

At one point, he said, you know what

25:18

this is, Jack? It's a lynching.

25:21

It's a high-tech lynching.

25:26

And I said, that's the way you

25:28

feel, go up and say it.

25:33

This wasn't necessarily a flash of inspiration.

25:36

Thomas had used the same word in his opening statement

25:38

that morning, saying, I will not

25:41

provide the rope for my own lynching.

25:44

For decades, Thomas had bristled

25:46

at the assumption that he got where he was because

25:49

he was black. But

25:51

now, in a moment of great personal crisis,

25:53

he was prepared to use race to his advantage.

25:56

He wanted all those white senators to know that

25:59

he'd been victimized.

25:59

And he wanted America to see

26:02

them squirm when he said it.

26:08

Committee will please come to order. Judge,

26:14

it's a tough day and tough night for you, I know. It

26:16

was after 7 p.m. when Thomas sat

26:19

back down at the witness table. He started

26:21

speaking before Joe Biden could even finish

26:23

asking him a question. Do you have anything

26:25

you'd like to say? Senator, I would like to start

26:28

by saying unequivocally, uncategorically,

26:32

that I deny each and every

26:35

single allegation against me today.

26:37

The way Thomas said

26:38

it, Anita Hill seemed almost incidental.

26:41

That night, he turned his anger toward the proceedings

26:43

themselves. This is a

26:45

circus. It's a national disgrace.

26:50

And from my standpoint, as

26:53

a black American, as far as I'm concerned,

26:56

it is a high-tech lynching

26:58

for uppity blacks who

27:00

in any way deign to think for themselves,

27:03

to do for themselves,

27:05

to have different ideas. And

27:07

it is a message that unless

27:09

you cow-tow to an old order,

27:12

this is what will happen to you. You

27:16

will be lynched, destroyed,

27:18

caricatured by

27:23

a committee of the U.S. Senate

27:26

rather than hung from a tree. With

27:29

that, Thomas leaned back in his

27:31

chair and tinted his fingers below his

27:34

chin.

27:35

Biden didn't know what to say. We

27:38

will have... It

27:43

did the trick. Jill Labrimson.

27:46

If

27:46

anything is going to freeze them,

27:48

it's basically being branded

27:51

not only racist, but

27:54

as people

27:55

who would commit the most heinous crimes

27:58

that have been committed in the U.S. Senate. in our nation's

28:00

history. I remember

28:03

wherever I was sort of stopping, just

28:06

thinking about those words. Judiciary

28:09

committee lawyer, Mark Schwartz, was in a room

28:11

just off the main chamber listening in. Just

28:14

stopping and being pretty offended

28:17

that verbal accusations

28:19

were equated to, you know, these

28:21

pernicious acts where

28:23

people were slaughtered. I mean, when

28:26

he's talking about a high-tech lynching,

28:29

he's talking about the work that you were doing,

28:31

right? Like that you and your

28:33

team. Look, you know, my

28:36

role was a very

28:38

small role. I think that we were

28:40

just doing our best in an incredibly difficult

28:42

situation to try to have a fair process.

28:45

And obviously it wasn't the way anybody

28:47

wanted it to happen, but

28:50

when you say it's a high-tech lynching, it

28:53

imparts an intent, a malicious

28:55

intent. I vehemently

28:58

disagree with that. That was not what was

29:00

happening.

29:02

However you felt about that phrase, Thomas

29:05

had clearly changed the narrative. He'd

29:08

shifted the focus away from his workplace

29:10

behavior and onto his persecution.

29:13

And the way he told it, that assault

29:16

on his character was based on one woman's

29:18

unproven claims. That was in keeping

29:20

with the Thomas Camps broader strategy to

29:23

isolate Anita Hill as a single, unreliable

29:25

witness.

29:28

But the truth was, she was not a lone

29:30

accuser. In the days leading up to

29:32

the hearing, Mark Schwartz and the Judiciary

29:34

Committee had learned about three other women who

29:37

could potentially testify. Thomas's

29:41

opponents on the committee now had a lot

29:43

more ammunition.

29:46

The only question was,

29:48

would they use it? We'll

29:53

be back in a minute.

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32:00

Millions of Americans had watched Anita Hill

32:02

describe what Clarence Thomas had done to her and

32:04

how it made her feel.

32:06

Some of them thought she was a liar. Others

32:08

thought she was brave. Sukari Hardnet

32:10

thought she could help.

32:13

I really felt so sorry

32:15

for Anita Hill and so proud

32:17

of her. And I just knew

32:19

that somebody needed to

32:21

come to her aid to

32:24

corroborate what she was saying because

32:26

she was telling the truth.

32:28

You heard from Hardnet in our previous episode.

32:30

She worked for Thomas at the EEOC, starting

32:33

two years after Hill's departure.

32:35

What she said was exactly what he'd done

32:37

when I was there. She wrote a

32:39

brief statement about her experience working

32:41

with Thomas. Dear Senators,

32:45

I worked as a special assistant to Clarence

32:47

Thomas at the EEOC from 1985 to I'm

32:52

ready

32:52

for this. Hardnet, who's an attorney, asked the

32:54

dean of her law school to help her draft the document.

32:58

If you were young, black, female,

33:00

and reasonably attractive, you

33:02

knew full well you were being inspected

33:05

and auditioned as a female.

33:07

Hardnet's statement got passed along

33:09

to the Senate Judiciary Committee. I felt obligated

33:12

to communicate this in writing in

33:14

order to put this on the record publicly.

33:17

Sincerely, Sukari Hardnet.

33:20

She was careful to say that she didn't

33:22

believe Thomas had harassed her. She

33:25

thought that it would be better if that

33:27

wasn't a part of the letter and

33:30

that it would be better to just talk about

33:32

my experiences to support what

33:35

Anita Hill was saying.

33:37

She was just one of the women who were willing

33:39

to share their experiences working with Clarence

33:41

Thomas. If the Senate Judiciary Committee

33:43

asked them to testify, it seemed possible,

33:46

maybe even likely, that his nomination

33:48

would be sunk.

33:50

I remember being in my office

33:52

in the Senate office building. Mark Schwartz

33:54

again.

33:59

with a phone number and

34:02

the woman's name was Angela Wright.

34:06

You also heard about Wright in our last episode.

34:09

She was the public affairs director at the EEOC.

34:12

She said that Thomas told her that the hair

34:14

on her legs was sexy.

34:16

He also showed up uninvited at her apartment.

34:19

And then in 1985, he fired her.

34:23

Six years later, Wright was working

34:25

as an editor at the Charlotte Observer. Schwartz

34:28

got her on the phone two days before Anita

34:30

Hill was scheduled to testify.

34:32

She wouldn't know who I was from a hole in the wall.

34:34

So I introduced myself. I said, you know, who I

34:36

worked for. I asked her if

34:38

she had some time to answer some questions and she said

34:41

she did.

34:42

Schwartz found that Wright was a lot scrappier

34:44

than the poised and serene Anita Hill. She

34:47

told him that Thomas was like an annoying

34:49

fly, but she sounded like a credible

34:51

witness. She was pretty specific about

34:53

some of the

34:55

comments that the nominee had made.

34:57

So I, at the time, was remembering

34:59

I better take really good notes because this

35:02

is going to be important. Schwartz asked

35:04

Wright if she would be willing to come to Washington

35:06

to testify.

35:07

She said no, she was a working

35:09

journalist and didn't want to put herself at

35:11

the center of a news story.

35:13

Schwartz thanked her and told her he would follow

35:15

up.

35:16

Then he rushed over to Joe Biden's

35:18

office.

35:19

He was very respectful, listened very

35:21

carefully, but I don't think it was the kind of

35:23

thing where he was like happy that

35:26

I was there because usually people were showing

35:28

up from my unit to brief him. It's like

35:31

we're only doing it because there's some

35:34

swirl going on.

35:35

The day after that meeting, federal marshals

35:38

showed up at Wright's house. They came with a subpoena

35:41

compelling her to fly to Washington right away.

35:43

Back in D.C., Schwartz was continuing

35:46

to work the phones.

35:47

There was a woman who I actually

35:50

ended up interviewing. Rose

35:53

Jourdain was her name, who provided

35:56

some

35:57

very strong corroboration.

36:00

Jordane had been Wright's confidante to

36:02

EEOC.

36:03

Wright had told her about Thomas's

36:05

behavior and even asked her to stick around

36:07

the office until Thomas left in the evenings.

36:10

I felt actually pretty bad about

36:12

having to engage in a telephone interview

36:14

with her because she was in a lot of pain.

36:17

In

36:17

October 1991, Jordane

36:19

was bedridden in the hospital. I

36:22

remember Rose was there with her daughter at

36:24

the time, I think, in the hospital room explaining, the

36:26

things that Angela Wright has told you are absolutely

36:30

what she related to me about how the

36:33

nominee had come by her house and

36:35

how she was uncomfortable. And

36:37

she was very emphatic and solid

36:40

in her statements.

36:42

In spite of her condition, Jordane

36:44

said she'd be willing to testify. Schwartz

36:47

reported back to the Judiciary Committee, which

36:49

started thinking about how to transport her from the

36:51

hospital to the hearing room.

36:54

You

36:54

know, a month before it, we're talking about the writings

36:56

of Thomas Sowell and here we're talking about

36:59

how to transport somebody in an ambulance to

37:01

come and testify. It was

37:03

crazy.

37:05

NBC News has been told that the Judiciary

37:07

Committee has informed Thomas's team that

37:10

it is interviewing another potential witness. Two

37:12

others were already scheduled.

37:14

Angela Wright, Rose Jordane

37:16

and Sakari Hartnett were now on deck. The

37:19

minute one of them testified, Anita

37:21

Hill would no longer be alone. On

37:23

Saturday, October 12th, Clarence

37:27

Thomas sat back down at the witness table. Here to come to order. Anita

37:29

Hill spent the day in a Washington hotel room

37:32

as the hearings carried on without her. Morning,

37:34

judge. And it didn't take long for them to go

37:36

totally off the rails.

37:38

Let me just read to you from page seven

37:42

the best particular version of the exorcist. The Republicans of

37:44

the Judiciary Committee were doing everything

37:47

they possibly could to discredit Hill, accusing

37:49

her of being a witness to the hearing. Accusing

37:53

her of being a scorn former lover or

37:55

a lesbian or a radical feminist

37:57

or in the case of Utah Senator Oran.

38:00

and Hatch, accusing her of stealing material

38:02

from the best-selling novel, The Exorcist.

38:05

Dennings had remarked to him in passing, said Sharon,

38:08

that there appeared to be, quote, an alien

38:11

pubic hair floating around in my

38:13

gym, unquote.

38:16

I mean, where they thought

38:18

there's a connection to The Exorcist,

38:20

I don't know. Jill Abramson. The

38:22

question seemed to be saying,

38:24

well, clearly you plagiarized

38:27

the allegation that Thomas

38:30

asked her, who put pubic

38:32

hair on my can of Coke? What

38:35

do you think about that, Judge? Senator,

38:38

I think this whole affair is sick. I

38:40

think it's sick too. I don't

38:42

think I should be here today. I

38:45

don't think that this inquisition should be going

38:47

on. The inquisition kept

38:49

on going,

38:50

and it wasn't directed at Clarence Thomas. Her

38:53

statements and actions in my presence

38:56

were in my opinion, yet another

38:58

example of her ability to fabricate

39:01

the idea that someone was interested

39:03

in her when in fact no

39:06

such interest existed.

39:08

On Sunday, October 13th, the

39:10

committee called a man named John Doggett

39:12

to testify. Doggett was Clarence

39:15

Thomas's Yale Law School classmate,

39:17

and he'd met Anita Hill when they were both working in

39:19

Washington, D.C. Now, Doggett

39:22

told the Judiciary Committee that Hill had been

39:24

obsessed with him.

39:26

Miss Hill's fantasies about

39:28

my sexual interest in her were

39:30

an indication of the fact that she was having

39:33

a problem with being rejected

39:35

by men she was attracted to.

39:38

Hill couldn't believe what she was hearing. She

39:41

barely remembered John Doggett.

39:43

Now, Republicans were using his

39:45

unverified testimony to argue that Hill

39:47

suffered from iratomania.

39:50

That's a delusional disorder where someone

39:52

thinks another person is in love with them.

39:55

That was just garbage. There

39:57

was really no credible evidence about

39:59

that. this at all.

40:03

This is something I remember, and this is so

40:05

bizarre. Mark Schwartz says he had

40:07

to chase down all kinds of leads, no

40:09

matter how unhinged they were.

40:11

One of the Republican senators had found somebody

40:14

who had alleged that they were in a class taught

40:16

by Professor Hill, and that

40:18

she would pass back their test books, and that

40:20

there was pubic hair

40:23

in them. I mean, even

40:25

thinking about it today, it's insane.

40:29

In the scenes, Republican senators wielded

40:31

this story as a threat.

40:33

They said that if the Democrats talked about

40:35

Thomas' history with pornography, they'd

40:38

tell the world that Anita Hill sprinkled

40:40

pubic hairs on a student's papers.

40:46

I've got letters hanging out my pocket.

40:48

I've got faxes saying, watch

40:51

out for this woman.

40:54

Nobody's got the guts to say that because it gets

40:56

all tangled up in this sexual harassment

40:59

crap.

41:00

That was Senator Alan Simpson, a Republican

41:02

from Wyoming, and that Saturday, he

41:05

didn't just go after Anita Hill.

41:07

Angela Wright will

41:09

soon be with us, we think.

41:13

But now we're told that Angela Wright has what

41:15

we used to call in the legal trade, cold

41:17

feet.

41:19

Wright heard that remark while she was polishing

41:21

her opening statement. She was at a Washington

41:24

law office, dressed in a borrowed skirt

41:26

with her hair pulled up in a bun.

41:28

As she waited to get called to the hearing room,

41:31

she listened as Simpson called her a totally

41:33

discredited witness.

41:44

The Bush White House also got a hold of her

41:46

government work history, and began circulating

41:48

the fact that she'd been fired from a previous job.

41:51

As the campaign against her gained steam,

41:54

the Judiciary Committee met behind closed

41:56

doors. In that meeting, the

41:58

Committee made a very big decision.

42:00

and on Sunday night, October 13th,

42:03

Chairman Joe Biden announced it to the world.

42:05

Ms. Wright and Ms. Jordanne

42:08

will not testify at the hearing.

42:11

Their extensive interviews conducted

42:13

by the majority and minority staff

42:17

will be placed in the official

42:19

record

42:20

available to... In their book, Strains Justice,

42:23

Jill Abramson and Jane Mayer reported

42:25

that Senate Democrats became frightened of

42:27

Wright's checkered employment record. The

42:30

senators also talked about her tendency

42:32

to lose her temper and whether her sexiness

42:35

might make her less credible.

42:38

It

42:38

seems all the more unbelievable to

42:40

me now than it did then that Joe

42:42

Biden did not call her to testify.

42:46

She was literally waiting in the wings.

42:51

That was it.

42:52

Angela Wright had come to Washington, D.C.

42:54

for nothing, and there would be no ambulance

42:56

to bring Rose Jordanne to Capitol Hill. And

43:00

what about Sakari Hardinett, who said that

43:02

black women in Clarence Thomas' office were

43:04

getting inspected and auditioned? She

43:06

was ready to say those words publicly,

43:09

but she never got the chance.

43:11

When did you realize that you wouldn't be called

43:13

to testify? When they didn't

43:15

call me to testify. Like

43:18

what was that like the waiting for

43:20

a response that never came? Well,

43:24

it's

43:26

a part of being black in America. You

43:29

know, it's a part of not

43:31

just being black in America, but being a black

43:33

female in America. So

43:40

how do you feel about the fact

43:42

that those women didn't get to tell their stories on

43:45

camera in front of the committee? Like do you think it

43:48

might have changed things?

43:50

The only thing I'm going to say about that is if they

43:52

had testified, it would have changed

43:55

the conversation we're having now.

43:57

I'm not smart enough to know that

43:59

it would. would have changed the result.

44:01

The Clarence Thomas confirmation

44:04

story is finally over. Today's

44:06

vote followed one of the most bitter confirmation

44:08

battles in recent history. On this vote,

44:11

the yeas are 52 and the nays

44:13

are 48. The

44:15

nomination of Clarence Thomas of Georgia

44:18

to be Associate Justice of the United States Supreme

44:20

Court is hereby confirmed.

44:25

On October 15, 1991, the Senate confirmed Thomas by

44:29

the smallest margin for a Supreme Court nominee

44:32

in more than a century. He

44:34

got the votes of 41 out of 43 Republicans and 11

44:37

of 57 Democrats.

44:41

Clarence Thomas was soaking in a warm

44:43

bath at home during the Senate roll call. When

44:46

his wife, Jenny, told him the count had gone his

44:48

way, he said, whoop-de-damn-do,

44:51

where do I get my reputation back? Thomas

44:54

may not have been in the mood to celebrate, but

44:56

he had won, and his political allies

44:59

learned an important lesson. The best defense

45:02

is a good offense.

45:04

Listen, I had a lot to pray about

45:07

after the confirmation process was over.

45:09

That's Thomas's friend Armstrong Williams.

45:12

He's the one who told the press that there was a

45:14

thin line between Anita Hill's sanity and

45:16

her insanity.

45:18

You know, I never believed Anita Hill, but Anita

45:20

was a good person. I liked Anita. She

45:22

was a friend. When in war,

45:25

your job is to destroy the enemy who's trying

45:27

to destroy you. And at that time,

45:29

I just had to paint a pitch of hers being unstable.

45:32

Do I believe she's unstable? No. Do

45:35

I believe this is something she really wanted to do? No.

45:38

Did she do it? Yes. And so in

45:40

doing that, other things were

45:43

unleashed that

45:44

had to be done in order to save my man.

45:47

After everything she'd gone through in Washington,

45:49

DC, Anita Hill went back home

45:51

to Oklahoma to watch the confirmation vote.

45:54

When it was over, she told reporters

45:56

that she was disappointed, but not surprised.

45:59

That's

45:59

That same day, she started getting a

46:01

bulk delivery of letters, up to 3,500 pieces

46:04

of mail and each shipment.

46:06

Many were from women who'd lived through sexual harassment

46:09

and didn't know who else to tell.

46:12

And she has kept that famous

46:15

blue outfit that she wore,

46:17

along with the

46:20

thousands upon thousands of letters

46:22

of support. I think that that

46:25

has sustained her through the years.

46:27

Her telling the truth of exactly

46:29

what happened gave other

46:32

women courage to come forward.

46:35

We reached out to Anita Hill for an interview,

46:37

but never heard back.

46:41

In 1999, Hill became

46:44

a professor at Brandeis University. Eleven

46:47

years later, she got a voicemail on

46:49

her office phone line. It was

46:51

from Jenny Thomas. I just wanted to reach

46:53

across the airwaves

46:55

and the years and

46:58

ask you to consider

47:01

something. I would

47:03

love you to consider an

47:05

apology sometime and

47:07

some full explanation of why

47:10

you did what you did with my husband.

47:13

So, give it some thought. I

47:17

certainly pray about this and hope

47:19

that one day you'll help us understand

47:21

why you did what you did.

47:35

We'll be right back.

47:44

The Supreme Court was designed to be above

47:46

the fray, but right now, are

47:48

the nine justices living up to that promise? On

47:51

the new season of More Perfect, host

47:53

Julia Longoria brings the highest

47:55

court in the land down to earth. You'll

47:58

meet people on all sides of crucial

47:59

cases as she shares history that

48:02

explains how we got here. More

48:04

perfect from WNYC Studios.

48:07

Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

48:14

Get comfortable like Clarence

48:16

Thomas on a conservative billionaire's yacht comfortable

48:19

and tune into crooked media's strict scrutiny to

48:21

stay up to date on the latest Supreme Court decisions.

48:23

I'm Leah Littman and each week I'm joined by my co-hosts

48:26

and fellow law professors Kate Shaw and Melissa

48:28

Murray to break down the latest headlines and the biggest

48:30

legal questions facing our country from if a prisstone

48:32

to trans bands. With the 2024 elections

48:35

approaching, it's crucial to understand the impact

48:37

of these decisions and how to fight back. So

48:39

listen to new episodes of strict scrutiny every Monday

48:42

wherever you get your podcasts.

48:45

See them three boys up there?

48:48

That's my son with the blue shirt on. This

48:53

is Jamal, Clarence, and Kathy.

48:56

His first wife. You have

48:58

a picture of Kathy in here? Yeah, that's Kathy

49:00

right there. Do you have a picture?

49:03

A Virginia in the living room. Okay,

49:05

okay. And you see this picture up here? When

49:08

I stepped inside Leola Williams' home in Savannah,

49:10

there was a photo I couldn't stop looking at.

49:13

I mentioned it at the top of our first episode.

49:16

It showed Miss Leola on October 15, 1991, the day the

49:18

U.S. Senate voted to send her son

49:22

to the Supreme Court.

49:23

She was in Pinpoint, Georgia, surrounded

49:25

by family and friends.

49:27

A reporter from NBC showed up too. Miss

49:30

Williams, how does it feel to be the mother of Supreme

49:32

Court justice? It feels good. It feels

49:34

good. Now some people

49:36

have said that your son isn't qualified.

49:38

What do you think? You know, I'll

49:42

tell you what my dad said one time. Sticks

49:46

and stones may break my bones, but words will

49:48

never harm you. Yeah, yes, yes. That's

49:50

it. He talked

49:52

about him, but that's all right. That's all right. They

49:55

talk about Jesus Christ. Yes.

49:57

I read your son's book, and

49:59

he's... said that you were very upset

50:02

about how he was treated during

50:04

the conference. Yes, I was, very. We

50:07

was at the White House.

50:10

He was taking his first sworn

50:12

in. And these tall

50:16

men's coming to us,

50:18

coming to real tall. And

50:20

they said, oh, you're Miss Lillah?

50:24

I said, yeah. And

50:27

he said, well,

50:29

my name is Joe Biden. And

50:32

the other one said, my name is Kennedy.

50:35

I said, oh, I

50:38

said, is this a free country? And

50:42

he, both of them said, yeah.

50:45

I said, well, I do not shake

50:48

Hippocrates' hands. And

50:52

walk right by my head, turn

50:54

in my son's head, say, boy,

50:58

I can't take you nowhere.

51:01

Did you ever forgive Joe Biden for that? Yeah,

51:04

I had to forgive him. As a Christian,

51:07

I had to. Yes, ma'am. I don't love him, but

51:09

I forgive him.

51:11

I never forget, though.

51:14

Clarence Thomas never forgot either. And

51:16

it doesn't seem like he's forgiven anyone, even

51:18

all these years later.

51:20

Reading his memoir, I was surprised

51:22

by how often he talks about his enemies and

51:24

critics, like he was some up and coming rap

51:26

artist.

51:27

The truth is, those

51:29

enemies and critics are totally irrelevant.

51:32

He's on the Supreme Court for life. And

51:34

in his case, life means life.

51:37

Thomas turned 75 this June, and

51:39

he's currently the most senior justice on the court.

51:42

If he stays for five more years, he'll

51:44

have the longest tenure of any Supreme Court

51:46

justice in history.

51:48

When I first started covering the

51:51

court 20 years ago, Clarence Thomas was

51:53

an outlier. Dahlia Lithwick

51:55

writes about the Supreme Court for Slate. But

51:58

I think what's changed in the decade

52:00

since he's been on the court as he went from

52:02

being kind of the fringe

52:05

of the fringe to being the

52:07

decider in a whole bunch of ways.

52:11

For a decade, Thomas didn't ask

52:13

a single question during oral arguments,

52:15

but his votes and his opinions speak for themselves.

52:19

He voted to strip away much of the enforcement

52:21

power of the Voting Rights Act.

52:23

He sided with the majority and Dobbs

52:25

v Jackson Women's Health Organization, which

52:28

overturned Roe v. Wade. In his

52:30

concurrence in that case, he urged his

52:32

colleagues to go much further and reconsider

52:34

the Supreme Court's rulings on contraception

52:37

and same-sex marriage.

52:39

And now, Thomas is closer than

52:41

ever to eliminating his lifelong nemesis,

52:44

affirmative action.

52:46

As we record this episode, that

52:48

decision could be just days away.

52:51

And again, to me, that is

52:53

evidence that this is 100% Clarence Thomas's

52:55

world. We all just

52:58

get to live in it.

53:01

He's become a revered figure, and

53:03

not only in the conservative movement, because people

53:06

are beginning to watch his ideas that he

53:08

championed from the margins turn into

53:10

the law of the lab. Armstrong

53:12

Williams again. That's where the court is

53:14

moving in his direction now, and

53:16

his influence, even his control, is

53:19

ascendant. And it is the Thomas

53:21

Court.

53:23

It's not just the Thomas Court. It's

53:26

also Thomas's Republican party. At

53:28

least 10 of his former clerks have served

53:30

in or worked on behalf of the Trump administration.

53:34

That includes John Eastman, the attorney

53:36

who came up with the plot to overturn the 2020

53:38

election.

53:39

His wife, Jenny, now a lobbyist

53:41

and activist, also got involved in that effort.

53:45

I would like to thank a

53:47

great woman named Jenny Thomas. You

53:49

know Jenny Thomas? The wife

53:52

of a great man, Justice Clarence

53:54

Thomas, for her courage and strength. But

53:58

Clarence Thomas has not recused him.

53:59

himself from any case relating to the January

54:02

6th insurrection.

54:03

In fact, he was the only justice

54:06

to side with Donald Trump when he attempted to

54:08

block the release of White House records about that

54:10

day. Thomas has also accepted

54:12

gifts worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and

54:15

didn't disclose them.

54:16

I'm just taking aback. You

54:18

know, I think the

54:20

young Clarence Thomas that

54:23

I knew would think that this

54:25

was not in keeping

54:27

with ethical behavior. That's

54:30

journalist Juan Williams. He's been covering

54:32

Clarence Thomas for more than 40 years.

54:35

I just think that's not

54:37

good for Clarence Thomas. I think it's not good for

54:39

the Supreme Court. I think it's not good for our

54:41

democracy. And I'm surprised

54:44

that he's put himself in that position. You

54:46

know, to be frank, I'm disappointed

54:49

that someone who

54:52

is a hardworking, thoughtful

54:55

man had that kind

54:57

of ethical lapse.

54:59

Thomas did work very hard to get where he

55:01

is today,

55:02

but he's also had a lot of help

55:04

from John Danforth and George H.W.

55:06

Bush

55:07

and Harlan Crow, the Texas

55:09

real estate magnate who's flown Thomas around

55:11

the world on his private jet and paid

55:13

for his grand nephew's private school tuition.

55:16

I wanted to ask Thomas about all this, but

55:18

he declined my interview request. So

55:21

all I can tell you is what I saw.

55:23

In Thomas's hometowns, Crow's

55:25

fingerprints are everywhere. He donated

55:28

money to rename one wing of a savannah

55:30

library in Thomas's honor. He

55:32

also paid to convert an old cannery into

55:34

the Pinpoint Heritage Museum.

55:37

I'd like to thank my good friend

55:39

in absentia, my friend Harlan

55:41

Crow, who against

55:43

my better advice, insisted

55:46

that he would preserve the heart of

55:48

this community from the bulldozer's blade.

55:52

I'm glad.

55:54

Clarence Thomas loaves welfare. He

55:56

thinks affirmative action is demeaning, but

55:58

there's no denying that Thomas's

55:59

white conservative friends have elevated

56:02

him at every step.

56:04

I don't think he ever realized

56:06

that he was being manipulated and

56:09

used by the white

56:13

Republicans. I don't think he realizes

56:16

it now.

56:17

That's Thomas's ex-girlfriend, Lillian

56:20

McEwen. He took their

56:22

approval as friendship and appreciation

56:24

for what he

56:25

had done. And

56:30

I think he still does. Dahlia

56:33

Lithwick isn't so sure. You

56:36

know, is Carlen Crow using Clarence Thomas

56:38

or is Clarence Thomas using Harlan

56:40

Crow? I think it's that their

56:42

interests are perfectly aligned.

56:45

So I don't know that who's using

56:47

who is the most useful framing.

56:50

I think the useful framing is Clarence

56:52

Thomas had a vision of the Supreme Court

56:55

as a political juggernaut for the far

56:58

right. And he got

57:00

it.

57:01

In an earlier episode, I talked about

57:04

Clarence Thomas and racial solidarity.

57:06

A poll released the day the Senate confirmed him

57:09

showed that 70% of black Americans

57:11

wanted him on the Supreme Court. After

57:13

the hearings, I remember black leaders doing

57:15

their best to be optimistic. One

57:17

of my professional idols, the late writer,

57:20

Ralph Wiley, wrote, I'm in the habit

57:22

of forcing myself into hoping for black

57:24

people.

57:26

Here's what I remember about what came next.

57:28

In the nineties, my family subscribed

57:30

to the black owned magazine emerge

57:33

twice. We got copies in the mail that had

57:35

caricatures of Thomas on the cover. And

57:38

one of them, he was wearing a handkerchief like

57:40

aunt Jemima's. The second one had

57:42

this headline, uncle Thomas, Lon

57:45

Jockey for the far right. Those

57:47

cartoons, ginned up outrage from

57:49

some conservative black commentators.

57:52

But among the black folks I knew

57:53

they were the consensus.

57:55

So I've been holding back my thoughts.

57:59

And I did not. want to talk much about

58:02

Clarence Thomas.

58:03

Eddie Jenkins was the only one of Thomas's

58:05

college friends from Holy Cross who agreed to

58:07

talk with us. That's likely because

58:09

their friendship ended more than 30 years ago

58:12

when Thomas took offense to something Jenkins

58:14

said in an interview.

58:15

And so I come to find out that after he got

58:18

the nomination, that he didn't

58:20

want me to come to swimming

58:22

in.

58:23

Now, Jenkins watches his old friend

58:25

from a distance. And all this time later,

58:28

he's still waiting for that friend to return.

58:30

When you know someone for a long time

58:33

and you believe and trust in them, it's

58:36

more than a history lesson. It's

58:39

something that goes deep because

58:43

you develop a certain affection

58:45

and affinity for the brother that you know. And

58:47

the reason why I decided to come on this

58:51

program with you

58:53

is because this

58:56

brother ain't going nowhere.

58:59

He is going to be on the bench

59:02

until he catches his last breath. So

59:05

there is hope that he realizes

59:07

that. You know what?

59:10

We all have the same God. And

59:12

there is a reckoning. And so

59:15

there's still time.

59:17

And that's why I'm here, to

59:19

tell you that

59:21

there's still time. Wow.

59:26

Hey, I kind of poured it all out, didn't I? Would

59:36

you ever want to live in Pinpoint? I'd

59:38

rather stay here.

59:40

Leola Williams' father, Myers

59:43

Anderson, built the modest home she

59:45

now lives in way back in the 1950s. In 2014,

59:49

Harlan Crow bought it.

59:51

This street used to be bad. What

59:54

do you mean? Drugs and stuff. But

59:59

they don't do it anymore. the morning they

1:00:01

tear down all those houses and

1:00:03

we don't have those people on the street anymore.

1:00:06

If she enjoys the neighborhood now, it's

1:00:08

at least in part because Crow helped fix it up.

1:00:11

Her property was one of several that Crow's company

1:00:13

bought on the same street.

1:00:15

His company later sold those other lots and

1:00:17

they've since been replaced by upscale homes.

1:00:20

I'm so glad I got to see the famous

1:00:22

house, man, that he built

1:00:24

with this. I mean, that's just unbelievable, by

1:00:26

the way. She was clean, but I could do so much.

1:00:30

Oh, your house is great. What

1:00:32

are you talking about? I look

1:00:34

in the living room right on this side.

1:00:35

On my way out, I took a bunch of pictures

1:00:38

and jotted down some details so I wouldn't forget.

1:00:41

There was the lived-in den with a pair

1:00:43

of old recliners, a tidy living

1:00:45

room that no one seemed to spend much time in.

1:00:48

The china cabinet in the corner, a large

1:00:50

painting of Jesus carrying a fallen black

1:00:53

man on a deserted beach.

1:00:55

The home felt warm and it felt familiar.

1:00:58

If you're around my age and grew up black

1:01:00

in America, it would probably feel familiar

1:01:02

to you, too.

1:01:04

This could have been my grandmother's house or your

1:01:06

grandmother's. Yeah. Okay.

1:01:10

Okay.

1:01:11

Yes, my boy.

1:01:15

All right. Well, I mean, you know

1:01:18

what, Miss Lola, I think I didn't

1:01:20

held you for so long and I'm so glad I

1:01:22

got to see you and meet you. Go ahead, just

1:01:24

you. You take care of that baby. Miss

1:01:26

Lola and I had gotten to talking about my baby

1:01:28

boy and before I left, she

1:01:30

insisted on seeing the video. I'll show you this little video.

1:01:33

Oh, look at that. Look at that. Listen.

1:01:36

Listen. Isn't that cute? He's

1:01:38

looking for his daddy.

1:01:39

Yeah, he's looking for me. You better get back to that baby. He's

1:01:41

not used to

1:01:43

me being gone.

1:01:54

Harlan Crow said he wants to preserve Miss Lola's

1:01:56

house as a historic site and

1:01:58

it legitimately is one.

1:02:00

It still looks as sturdy as it must have when

1:02:02

Clarence and his brothers showed up on the doorstep as

1:02:04

children with their possessions and a pair

1:02:06

of grocery bags.

1:02:09

You know, I can remember being herded

1:02:11

into our little den. It's where

1:02:13

the Motorola TV was. And

1:02:17

we all had to watch what was going

1:02:19

on in Little Rock and being

1:02:22

horrified. You know, we'd

1:02:24

watch what happened in Birmingham, the fire

1:02:26

hoses, the dogs, things like

1:02:28

that. And it really, oh, absolutely

1:02:30

had a tremendous impact on all of us.

1:02:34

Clarence Thomas' grandparents raised him

1:02:36

to reject that racism and overcome

1:02:38

it.

1:02:39

They turned this house into a lunch pad

1:02:42

that took him to places they could never imagine.

1:02:44

It's a humble place,

1:02:46

but something to be proud of. A

1:02:48

family heirloom.

1:02:50

And now,

1:02:51

it's owned by someone else.

1:02:59

It's a humble place to be. Slow

1:03:10

Burn is produced by Sophie Summergrad, Sam

1:03:13

Kim,

1:03:14

Sophie Codner, and me, Joel

1:03:16

Anderson. Josh Levine is the editorial

1:03:19

director of Slow Burn. Derek John

1:03:21

is our executive producer.

1:03:24

This episode was edited by Josh

1:03:26

Levine, Derek John, Sophie

1:03:28

Summergrad, and Joel Meyer. Susan

1:03:31

Mathews is Slate's executive editor. Merit

1:03:34

Jacob is our senior technical director.

1:03:37

Our theme music was composed by Alexis

1:03:39

Codrada. Ivy Lee Simones

1:03:42

did the cover art. We had production

1:03:44

help from Benjamin Payne and Savannah, Patrick

1:03:46

Fort, James Rettick, Vic

1:03:48

Whitley Berry, Alyssa Midcalf,

1:03:51

and Jesus Vivar at Mix Theory Studios.

1:03:55

We couldn't make Slow Burn without support from

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our members, and I strongly encourage you to sign

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1:03:59

for Slate Plus today. It's only $15 for

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1:04:06

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1:04:08

Plus members get ad free listening on this

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show and all Slate shows, unlimited

1:04:13

reading on the Slate site, and all kinds

1:04:15

of perks, like a member exclusive episode

1:04:17

of Slow Burn each week. In this week's

1:04:20

Plus episode, you'll hear a lot more from

1:04:22

Dahlia Lithwick and Mark Joseph Stern,

1:04:24

Slate's in-house experts covering the Supreme

1:04:27

Court. They talk about how Thomas' path

1:04:29

to the court

1:04:29

continues to influence his rulings on

1:04:32

the court. If you're looking for breaking

1:04:34

news analysis of everything going on with the Supreme

1:04:36

Court right now, you can also find Mark

1:04:38

and Dahlia on Slate's legal podcast,

1:04:41

Amicus. Amicus has new episodes

1:04:43

every Saturday this month to tell you all about

1:04:45

the big decisions being released this SCOTUS

1:04:47

term. There'll be special episodes

1:04:49

for Slate Plus members, too. Special

1:04:53

thanks to Jenea Desmond-Harris, Emily

1:04:55

John, Jessica Seidman, Paul

1:04:58

Somergrad, Danielle Conley,

1:04:59

Robert Wilson, Michael

1:05:02

Fletcher, Rachel Strom, and

1:05:05

Slate's Christina Cotarucci, Evan

1:05:07

Chung, Kelly Jones, Katie

1:05:10

Shepard, Kaitlyn Schneider, Cleo

1:05:13

Levin, Bill Carey, Seth

1:05:15

Brown, Katie Rayford, Daisy

1:05:18

Rosario, Hillary Fry,

1:05:20

and Alicia Montgomery, Slate's VP of

1:05:23

Audio.

1:05:24

Appreciate y'all listening to our show.

1:05:41

Get comfortable, like Clarence

1:05:43

Thomas on a conservative billionaire's yacht comfortable,

1:05:45

and tune into Crooked Media's Strict Scrutiny to

1:05:47

stay up to date on the latest Supreme Court decisions.

1:05:50

I'm Leah Lippman, and each week I'm joined by my co-hosts

1:05:52

and fellow law professors, Kate Shaw and Melissa

1:05:54

Murray, to break down the latest headlines and the biggest

1:05:56

legal questions facing our country, from Iffy Pristone

1:05:59

to trans bans. With the 2024 elections

1:06:01

approaching, it's crucial to understand the impact

1:06:03

of these decisions and how to fight back. So

1:06:06

listen to new episodes of Strict Scrutiny every Monday,

1:06:08

wherever you get your podcasts.