0:00

I want to tell you about a fantastic podcast called go off SIS from the unbothered team at refinery 29.

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So funky.

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So

0:35

folks

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today

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begins

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the

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first

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ever

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of

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my

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small

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doses

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artist's

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series. And I'm very excited because we are popping things off, jumping things off with somebody who is much more then Michelle Obama's portrait artist.

0:59

Okay. So I want to start us off there, even though that may have been the entry point to many of you all to her work.

1:07

Ms. Amy, Cheryl has been at this game baby for quite some time, and we are so honored to have you here on small doses.

1:15

And let me make it be known that she did inform me that likes, she don't really mean doing this, but you fuck with me.

1:21

So that's why she and I will take that and receive that wholeheartedly.

1:25

Yes, No,

1:27

it's a pleasure to meet you. I do adore you very much.

1:32

Thank you very much.

1:33

So, you know, I wanted to start this series because, and you actually mentioned this a bit off camera.

1:38

How, like, you know, if people are not like in the art world, if they're not art heads, then they're not necessarily up on like black art or just on art, but there's a number of reasons why like folks need to just be up on art.

1:52

And if we're all of our capitalists out there on a basic note, it's because art appreciate it.

1:58

So you could buy the Dodge chargers in the world, but they're never going to add up to an art piece that can actually continue to grow and be a part of legacy.

2:10

And it's an heirloom, et cetera.

2:12

And I'm always just wanting black folks to consider other ways that we continue to grow wealth, because we all know that unless the aliens come and like eradicate everything, then we go back to using cowrie shells.

2:22

Like that's going to be the wealth and education I believe, or like the, the, the way out.

2:27

But nonetheless, so tell us on a basic, I know you've been asked this question a million times, but what brought you to the canvas?

2:36

I always say, this is what I was born to do.

2:38

I don't know what else I'll be doing.

2:40

Like second grade I was drawing then maybe I would have been a chef or a wine sommelier or something like that.

2:48

Cause I worked as a waitress till I was like 37 support myself.

2:55

Right. But it's in my blood, it's in my bones.

2:58

And when I say that, I think about my mother who was born in 1935 in mobile, Alabama.

3:03

And she was a painter and went to one year of art school.

3:08

But being an artist, wasn't something that was like a possibility.

3:12

You know what I mean? Like even when I told her I wanted to be an artist, she still didn't understand what that meant.

3:17

And although she encouraged me all through my childhood, I had art classes three days a week and all of that.

3:24

And she was still surprised when I said that I wanted to go to school and not be a dentist, but be a painter.

3:31

Right. So she legit didn't start taking me seriously until like I remember at the unveiling of the portraits, we were walking back to the press room to take pictures.

3:41

And Barack was like, you must be really proud of your daughter.

3:45

And she looked at him and she was like, well, I gotta be honest with you.

3:50

I didn't really think this, our thing was gonna work out.

3:52

You say your mother's not west Indian. This sounds very, very Caribbean.

3:58

Wow, mom. But yeah, I mean, she was the kind of mother that I needed because I needed somebody to prove wrong.

4:03

And I spent 38, 39, 40 years doing that until it finally, you know, started to happen.

4:12

Like you're always waiting for that break. And my break was the Atlanta portrait competition with the Smithsonian.

4:17

And she came to the press preview and they wanted to interview her.

4:21

And she was like, wow, like you're kind of a big deal.

4:25

And I'm like, We've

4:27

all had that moment. Right? Like I had this, I had like check Caitlyn Jenner at this dinner and it like went viral.

4:33

Thank

4:38

you. And my mom didn't like, even like insecure, it'd been on for like, I mean, I think maybe like two seasons at that point.

4:46

Like she, like, she just was not getting it.

4:49

And then like we went to Florida mall or we went to like the model of millennia in Orlando.

4:52

And I got recognized three different times, but specifically by three different groups of people, it was like a straight guy, like a gay guy.

5:01

And then like a white girl. My mom was like, Angela.

5:07

I'm like, you know, lady, I took model of millennia and people recognize me here for you to really feel like I was doing something, but you're right.

5:15

It's like that. It keeps you humble too, you know?

5:18

And it keeps you like pushing.

5:21

It does, but Baby,

5:23

I think we're the same age. Are you an 81 baby?

5:26

I'm 73. He's 73.

5:28

Oh

5:30

girl. I feel like I'm almost 50.

5:32

I just started 48, but it's like, I feel like I'm almost 50.

5:37

Oh, you can't feel like you almost 50.

5:39

You don't look like you almost 50.

5:40

Cause Madeline is.

5:42

It's amazing. I think aging is wonderful maybe because I feel like I still look cute.

5:47

I didn't look cute.

5:49

Maybe like 73 born in the south.

5:55

Like just still the fumes of like the civil rights movement was like still in the air in Georgia and Columbus where I was born.

6:03

It was, it was still very much like a black and white city growing up there In

6:08

that respect. Where was this?

6:10

So you said you went to art classes three times a week.

6:12

Like, were those classes diverse or like what were you facing in those moments?

6:18

It was, you know, I mean, my parents wanted what was best for me.

6:23

And you know, my mom came from an era where, I mean, people were still, it's weird to think this way, but like light-skinned people were marrying light-skinned people.

6:35

Like it was still like very much making sure that your child can assimilate was why my name is Amy, you know, like not accentuating the differences, you know?

6:46

So my brother and I, we both went to private Catholic schools and we were the only black people in the school.

6:55

Like there was me and this other guy named Ken and like, that was it.

6:57

And yeah, Shout

7:00

out to Ken, Ken

7:03

kind of wasn't on the team.

7:05

And by the way, I was in the same situation and his name was Kenny.

7:10

Oh, wow. That's funny. And he wasn't on the tape.

7:12

So it wasn't, I mean, my art teacher was a white woman named Jerry Davis and bless her heart.

7:18

She was the first person to teach me that I should be painting my own ideal, you know, that painting white ballerinas and like all the other stuff that I was looking at, wasn't what I should be drawing about.

7:30

Like I was speaking about myself and telling my own story, but yeah, it was, you know, it's an experience that shaped me and you know, I left, I went to school with the same people from K to 12.

7:40

Right. So St Anne's.

7:42

Wow. And then I left to go to HBCU, but it was just an interesting dynamic because despite the fact that I went to school with the same people for 12 years, I didn't feel very connected to them at all.

7:54

You know, Just

7:55

because you were the one black girl or was it also because like they just made no effort to have any connections?

8:02

I feel like I was always neutral.

8:04

You know, like by the time we got to high school, there were, it was a high school of 400 people.

8:08

And there were probably about 20 black people out of 400.

8:12

And I always remained neutral.

8:15

Like they would kind of talk about the other black girls maybe because my dad was a dentist and they were like, you know, these girls go to this school and they could pay the tuition, but they're not like us, you're black, but you're not like black, black.

8:29

Yeah. It was a lot of that. It was a lot of that because the Columbus people like, even in the church, I grew up in people didn't understand how my mom could be brown and me and my brother could be LifeScan with brown hair.

8:39

And he has blue eyes. If you know what I mean? Like, yeah.

8:41

There was a lot of white people that had not experienced black people until they met me in high school that were like, you put car oil in your hair or just crazy that it's like, parents aren't doing your job.

8:52

Like they need to get, parents are like, they're not doing a good job raising you.

8:57

It still amazes me to this day that cause I've like gone to colleges in the middle of, you know, behind God's back Pennsylvania.

9:03

And you're, I'd be like speaking to audiences of kids who are like, I've never seen a black person until I came to this school.

9:11

And you're like, w I F I mean, you're missing out.

9:16

We're

9:16

fabulous,

9:22

But I can't be the only black person. I'm sorry.

9:23

Like, I can't be your only black friend.

9:25

So go get five friends.

9:27

And So

9:29

what made you decide, you know what? I got to go to this HBCU I

9:33

needed to be, I just needed to be around my people.

9:37

I mean, that's just how I felt.

9:39

I got another way, you know what I'm saying? Like, you could have been like, you know what?

9:43

I'm like, Brian, I'm going to just lean in and call it.

9:48

Oh, yeller big base. I had all the names, you know, my dad went to mark.

9:53

That's not exactly how my dad went to Morehouse.

9:58

He went to dental school at Howard and it just felt like, you know, you're just on, in a different way.

10:07

And I think for the first time, like going to Clark Atlanta and just being me and like, you know, you, you don't have to like decode anything.

10:16

Like if you get a bad grade, your ass has got a bad grade.

10:19

Like it's not because, you know, you know, have the, like both intentions.

10:24

And I felt like I could just be in my body in a different way.

10:28

I really needed that.

10:30

How did your art shift in that, from that transition?

10:33

Our, I mean, our art shifts over the, of our lifetime.

10:38

Like I'm in a moment right now where I hate everything I've ever painted and like, I put it up, but I'm Like,

10:43

like, I love that. I love that.

10:45

It's like, you're hung all over Your house.

10:47

At this point is immersion therapy.

10:48

It's like, you need to still love these pieces.

10:55

I think everything I paint to it still never leave you some days I walk in and I'm like, I don't even know why I'm here.

11:00

Like, all these paintings are stupid.

11:02

And then sometimes I'm like, I'm the bomb and this is great, you know?

11:07

But it, it changed from, you know, when I went to college, I met my first like real live working artists and he just happened to be a Panamanian.

11:17

And he was my painting instructor.

11:19

And he gave me the vision that I needed to understand that this is something that I could actually do.

11:26

How did he do that? Because we have a lot of creatives that listen to this podcast.

11:29

And I feel like that's a question that they ask me all the time.

11:32

And my answer is often just that, like, it's different for everybody.

11:36

You know, like everyone kind of is ignited in that course by different things.

11:42

Like for me, you know, it's one thing for you.

11:44

It's another, so what was it about what he illuminated to you that made you be like, oh, wow, I

11:48

can do this for me. One. It was, it was meeting a man that was selling prints on the app.

11:53

And the app is like the street that went from campus and he was just selling like black art, like posters and stuff.

11:59

And one day I was like, I'm an artist.

12:02

And he was like, oh yeah, you know, let me see some of your work.

12:05

So I run back to my dorm. I come back and I have this, this drawing that I did with prison and pencil and ink.

12:10

And it's like a picture of a African woman with like a red turban on and she's crying a tear and I torn out of a newspaper and put it on backwards, two words that said racial imbalance.

12:21

And it got entered into a competition at university of Georgia.

12:26

And I got like honorable mention or something.

12:27

So like, it was my pride and joy and I showed it to him.

12:31

And he's like, are you an art major? And like, no, I'm pre-med cause like, you know, my dad wanted me to take over his dental practice and whatnot.

12:35

And he was like, you know, if you don't use your talent, you'll lose your talent.

12:40

And that's what triggered me to change my major without telling my parents and you know, meeting our true Lindsey and him sending us to see a show of his at a gallery in Atlanta.

12:54

And I was like, this is amazing.

12:57

Like, you know, I had two moments.

12:59

That was my second moment. And the first moment was seeing a painting of a black man at the museum when I was in the sixth grade.

13:04

And that painting was made by white man who was painting himself as a black man.

13:09

But I didn't know at the time it was, We

13:13

need to get him on the show. I'm like, walk me through the journey.

13:20

So that was the introduction. And I think it just started there.

13:24

Like I just knew it was what I wanted to do. I don't know how to describe it, but it's all I ever put my focus on.

13:29

Like I never put my focus on anything else.

13:31

I never got caught up in like trying to be a cool kid or Like,

13:35

I mean, you were trying to please your parents.

13:37

I was, But then Arturo, Lindsay was like, come on now, you better get that racial imbalanced here, out here to do The

13:46

people. And I had the bag to be put in his class.

13:48

Cause it was already overbooked. Cause everybody already wanted to be in his class.

13:52

So he had too many students in that one student dropped out.

13:54

So I was able to get in who's that one Student,

13:57

can we send them an Amazon gift card? Like thank you.

14:01

I don't know. But yeah. So I started painting and I didn't know where to start.

14:04

Like how do you start painting? Like, you know, So

14:07

you weren't painting up until that point you were using what?

14:10

Medium? No, I did like the obligatory miles Davis, you know, like I would open up national geographic and like find a picture that I wanted to copy.

14:18

You know what I mean? So I hadn't found my own voice yet.

14:22

It was just like landscapes and bunnies and Watercolor

14:25

or acrylic or oil. What? Medium?

14:27

In my after-school classes, we did watercolor oil and krill.

14:30

We did it All fuck with oil.

14:32

I don't like it.

14:34

You wouldn't like it. If you use a dryer, I don't do wet on wet.

14:38

I'm not interested in it. It sucks, But

14:40

it's mud.

14:42

Yeah. But if you use liquid, then it's dry the next day, like acrylic.

14:46

So you have the whole day to work it out.

14:48

It like stays.

14:49

And then you at a certain point and you come back in the next day, it's dry.

14:53

So it was like layer by layer acrylic.

14:56

It's like instant gratification. You can just paint, paint, paint, paint, paint, paint, paint, paint, paint until your heart's desire, but oil and gives you the manipulation that you don't have for the acrylic.

15:05

And it's kind of interesting. So in my later life, I plan to really commit myself to my art.

15:12

And my mom has always said, well, you know, DME is going to get you a Ridge, but it is going to make you wealthy.

15:20

And I'm like, I don't know if that's actually true, but it's nice to think.

15:24

So grenade.

15:27

Okay. Yeah. My part is from Trinidad.

15:29

Sorry. I'm listening to you. And I feel like I'm talking to Lena.

15:33

Well Actually

15:35

like one generation from Grenada.

15:37

I mean I'm sure Edwina.

15:39

It would be like, oh, you know, my grandmother is green yen.

15:41

Like that's like it's it's right there.

15:44

Same cuisine, same food, better beaches.

15:49

Yeah. There's that? There's that. So come on by stop on by the, the spice island and come and check us out.

15:55

But I really, I really just love hearing people's process to how they realize what their style was, because style is tough.

16:07

It's your whole identity. You got to figure out what your DNA is and it can take, I didn't make that first painting that I knew was going to be the rest of my life paintings until 30 or one.

16:20

I say you make a whole lot of shitty work before you make some good words, like an undergrad.

16:26

I started with self portraits and then I was painting these alien women that had external spinal cords and they communicated through mental telepathy.

16:35

And like the world had been blown up and this dragon goddess named had come down and like taken these women back to her planet.

16:44

And it was just like, and I had never read the graphic Novel.

16:52

It was that for a while. And at that time I had my head shaved.

16:54

I Was so you were in it like Not

16:57

really, but like my mom, it was like the whole time I got two tattoos and I'm literally getting removed like now Please

17:09

tell Me no. They're like, embarrassing is really bad.

17:14

It's really bad.

17:15

Is

17:15

this

17:15

like

17:15

a

17:20

Chinese, Chinese character Painting

17:29

on a canvas? It was one of those things where like you wake up, you're 21, you got like $50 and you go to the tattoo parlor and realize that you can't afford anything.

17:37

And so you went to the wall.

17:39

You're like, I'll take that one. But I think I went to like a Chinese English dictionary.

17:43

I have a tramp stamp, So

17:45

champs, but when you get tattoos, we move Our

17:50

holes. We're never sidetracked, but it's a whole thing because this a laser and it hurts, right?

17:57

Yeah. They numb my arm.

17:59

So I was trying to get all of them removed at one time.

18:02

So I have like that Cisco dragon on my neck.

18:05

You remember what the dragon, Oh,

18:07

oh, I remember the dragon and the dragon.

18:12

You can only get so much light again in your body at one time.

18:14

So they, oh, I'm just getting these now because they're the most important.

18:20

So they just numbed this so you don't feel it.

18:22

But when I was trying to get them all numb, they could only numb like parts of it.

18:26

And it's the worst pain I've ever felt in my life.

18:28

Have you ever had an IUD put in? Yes.

18:30

And it was the, Wow.

18:32

We dislike holding fire to your arm.

18:36

Like instantly.

18:38

Cause it's burning the skin basically.

18:40

Or however it says it's the skin turns white.

18:43

It's weird Because when I got an IUD put in, I thought, you know what?

18:46

This is I don't ever need, this is the worst.

18:50

I've literally looked at the doctor and I was like, please like curse them all out and was like, oh, I'm sorry.

18:58

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

19:07

Okay. Now listen. A podcast from Netflix and strong black lead, hosted by culture, Queens, Scottie beam and Sylvia.

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That definitely is something that I would say because I've been doing the L in front of boards for quite some time on smart bunny and black.

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So I'm going to say that they were inspired by me to Jasmine Sullivan's hotels, to the Twitter threads, keeping us cackling and the reality TV moments that created hashtag sunset shorties plus exclusive interviews with the biggest names on Netflix, like spike Lee, N Zen day at new episodes drop every other Thursday, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and follow at strong black lead on social for updates.

19:53

So if you're like me, you know, eating healthy is not always like the top of your priority list.

19:57

And sometimes you're like really gung ho about it.

19:59

But then other times it's just like, Hmm. Like it just takes a back seat.

20:02

And next thing you know, you're not really getting the nutrition that you need.

20:05

And so then it's like, okay, well, how do I like get the nutrition that I need?

20:09

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21:36

So the television producer in me is like, I think there's a show went Graceffa and It was weird.

21:45

It was, it was, I just, I had to make up my own world.

21:48

Yeah. Got her powers from the series a star and the series B star, which is like where the OSI warriors.

21:55

Right. Kenya. Yeah. Where they feel very connected to those stars.

21:59

So it went from that to some really bad work in grad school.

22:05

Why was it bad work?

22:08

I call it my Sarah McLaughlin phase.

22:10

It was like a lot of cocoons and feathers.

22:13

And like me I

22:28

love this because it's really, I feel like a lot of people don't understand.

22:34

And particularly because I feel like this generation, I won't even say this generation, but all of us in this world right now, like if we're on social media, even in the most benign of ways, there's just this expectancy for perfection.

22:46

And it's like, when you're in process, like, no, one's too good to not be good.

22:50

Like I think that that's like an incredibly important part of an artist's career and their process.

22:56

And you know, while you're in that moment, you think you killing it.

23:01

But I wear glasses a really good talk on taste.

23:04

And I share it with anybody who asks me about process because you know, at the time you're like, yeah, this is popping.

23:10

And then, you know, you start to transition and that awkward phase of like, oh shit, I don't like, my shit is actually the bridge to like, you got to have a new breakthrough.

23:20

So it's like, just like push through.

23:23

Would you agree? Yeah. You just have to keep working.

23:26

You just have to make the bad stuff and you're going to think it's great.

23:28

And when you look back, you're going to be like my friends, aren't my friends.

23:31

They tell me my wife is like this whack, but I try to teach my students that because I feel like they think that it should just be like perfect the first time.

23:40

And I didn't really learn that.

23:41

I thought I wasn't a good writer, but I didn't realize, so my thirties that it's like multiple jobs.

23:47

You know what I mean? For some reason I was under the assumption that people just like sit down and they write something perfect the first time and I was struggling.

23:54

And then I just, wasn't smart enough to like figure it out.

23:56

And I wasn't a good writer, but I realized that my writing process is exactly the same as my painting process, which it's a process.

24:03

You start painting you unpaid some stuff you like start over.

24:08

I mean, until you figure out what it is that you're doing.

24:13

And I don't believe in like mental blocks.

24:16

I think that some people just don't have, they haven't lived enough to have enough to like build a visual language around it.

24:27

You know what I mean? It takes more, it takes life to, to make work.

24:32

You know, if you want it to be important, if you want it to be sophisticated, if you want it to tell a story, if you want it to, you know, whatever you want it to speak to, it takes life in order to make good work.

24:47

Otherwise you, you know, you might just be pushing paint around, like you just kinda pushing paint around.

24:52

But I think if you're really thinking about being an artist and it's really about developing, like connecting to a narrative and like before I became known for what I do now, I was trying to figure out like what my voice would be amongst all my contemporaries.

25:10

And that point in time, like nobody knew who I was and I was looking at different black artists.

25:15

And I'm like, if we were all sitting down in a room, who would I be like, how would I speak up amongst all these other voices?

25:22

And I had an epiphany and I realized that at that moment, and this was like in 2008, that nobody was making work about black people just being themselves.

25:36

Like everything was a didactic moment or about our revolution revolution or whatever.

25:44

But I realized that I think I was leaving Kara Walker's exhibition at the Whitney and her work is really powerful.

25:51

And I realized in that moment that there has to be this like resting place for us to come to see ourselves reflected in ways that are beautiful and thoughtful and present and, you know, self satisfied and just being us without all of the other stuff that, you know, we, I feel like, and I really went through this because I spent from 30 to 40 years old in my mind, I was going to die when I was 40, because I was like, I have heart failure.

26:23

I've been living with it for this long.

26:25

You don't know who diagnosed with heart failure at 30 coming out of grad school.

26:30

I was diagnosed. I had eight. My heart function was at 18%.

26:34

Yes. Like, was it like you noticed it over time or just like one day it was like, No,

26:38

I never had any symptoms. So you know how athletes just like be playing basketball.

26:42

And also, it just would have been one of those things that was training for a triathlon, but I just happened to go to a doctor and they just happened to run these tests and we just happened to find out.

26:51

So I lived with it for a long time, but you know, people die waiting for organs all the time.

26:58

So in my mind, I'm like, well, this is it.

27:00

You know? So I really have to figure this stuff out.

27:02

I see. You felt like your mortality was pushing you to identify what your purpose was.

27:10

Yeah, my purpose. And like just who I am, like who am I besides Amy Cheryl born in the south daughter of Amos and Geraldine, Cheryl taught who to wear, how to dress, how to act, what black is, what black aids, you know what I mean?

27:25

Like it's, it felt so limiting.

27:27

And I really just wanted to get down to like the bottom of who we were outside of this dominant circle narrative.

27:34

That it's very easy, I think to only view yourself in a way that you're being viewed.

27:43

Right? So like, I want it to become aware of myself by myself and of myself with my own gaze versus always being in a reactionary space of other people.

27:53

You know? And part of that is just like having to go to all white schools and like constantly being put in a place where you have to perform and not really realizing that I was performing until I moved back home at 30 to help my mom like older women in our family.

28:09

And I was the one that didn't have a job. So like I moved back home to, to be a caregiver.

28:14

And then I realized that, you know, there's a lot of me that I, you know, I turn on and off in these moments where had I grown up somewhere else.

28:23

I might not even be that way. You know?

28:25

So the work for me was just about getting down to the bottom.

28:28

How did you get down to the bottom? Was there therapy?

28:30

Was it meditation?

28:31

Was it just like, I'm not talking to people that I used to talk to, like, what was the like pragmatic way or was it literally just being like, I'm going to listen to myself more?

28:40

Yeah. It was about listening to myself more.

28:42

It was about, I think the first thing I think was like becoming an advocate of like the religious faith that I was brought up in, which is like a non-denominational church that we went to church on Saturday.

28:55

We kept the Sabbath. I couldn't watch cartoons on Saturday morning.

28:58

So it was like lights out from Friday to Saturday.

29:00

We celebrated like all these holy days they have a Toman fasted.

29:06

There's an 11 bread, like all that stuff and learning how to think of my own.

29:12

Right. And not being afraid to do that because for me, when it comes to religion, it's something I have to give up some of my own power in a way.

29:24

And I didn't like the way that, that felt.

29:27

I didn't like that. My mom taught me that only Matthew mark, Luke and John can have these revelations.

29:32

Like I wasn't smart enough to like, have God speak to me to, you know what I mean?

29:36

So I have to like rely on this other person to tell me how to be in the world.

29:40

Like I don't. So especially not as a Virgo woman, I'm like, forget that, like For

29:45

a go rising over here. Yeah.

29:47

No you can't. I mean, it's just, and it's just nonsensical for Virgos.

29:51

It's like the logic isn't here that it's illogical.

29:56

Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, like, I think fortunate by portrait, I was working my way through to this thing that I was really only given the language for two years ago when I came across a book by this writer named Kevin Foshee and it's called the sovereignty of quiet and he talks about the black interior and then Elizabeth Alexander's book, it's called the black interior.

30:19

And it really speaks to our private identity versus the public identity.

30:24

And that's what the work is really about.

30:27

And that's why it's, to me, like it's so important that like portraits are front-facing that they're meeting the gaze of the viewer and I want the images to be considered universal, but I also understand that they can be employed in many different ways.

30:44

You know, I had a fear in the beginning of the work being marginalized, because I didn't want the conversation solely to be about identity because it was something I was trying to free myself from.

30:53

And I don't mean like free myself from my blackness, but free myself to become what I feel like constantly living in a reactionary space, limits you from becoming if you're in a relationship with somebody and you're constantly arguing, like you lose touch with yourself.

31:10

And I think, you know, the black struggle is real and the fight for civil rights is real.

31:16

And the fight quality is real.

31:18

And at times I almost felt guilty for just needing to separate myself from that.

31:24

I could really get down to the nitty gritty of who I was, but, you know, Kevin talks about these different black female writers that wrote that way through the 19 hundreds and that, you know, we're on that same journey.

31:36

So I felt affirmed in that.

31:38

And I want the work to offer when you go into a museum space and see a painting by me, I want my work to offer that, that up to the people that look like us, That

31:49

I am glad I asked you, see, here's the thing, you know, because, and, and you're exceptionally good at this.

31:57

And I, I wonder, were you always this articulate about your work?

32:02

Because I think a lot of times as artists, like we know what's in our mind and we put it out there and then when someone's like, so what is this?

32:09

It's like, I mean, you know, It

32:14

depends on who I'm talking to and that's like the woes of an introvert.

32:17

Cause like some people would meet me and be like, she's amazing.

32:20

And some people like that, ticket's awkward. It's just like, depends on who it is.

32:25

Energy like is a wind blowing to the left, but it takes being quiet and sit in, you know, it takes being quiet and just reading.

32:34

And Where are you in a relationship at the time?

32:38

No, I'm at the love of my life when I was 43 or 44.

32:46

I really think it's an important thing to know.

32:49

Yeah. I'm glad. Cause I, I get less work done now.

32:52

I'm like, can we break up for two months?

32:57

Yeah. I had the opportunity and it's hard for me to tell people this, you know, especially young female artists, because I don't know if it's a hundred percent true or just know no true for Me,

33:08

that's all that matters.

33:10

It's like, I'm not sure I would be here.

33:13

Had I got caught up in a relationship.

33:15

You know what I mean? Like I'm 48.

33:17

I don't have any kids. We're like trying to have kids now.

33:20

We're like thinking about adoption and do all this other stuff also where somebody told me to freeze my eggs.

33:24

But you know, you can have Mine.

33:26

I'm not going to use them.

33:29

I'm not sure I would be here like this, something that you have to give 150%, you cannot be comfortable.

33:36

You have to be comfortable with risk.

33:38

And that goes for any that goes for acting that goes for anything.

33:42

It's like nothing I get in the way of this.

33:45

I didn't care where the people were like, what is Amy doing with her life?

33:48

She's 36 years old. She's waiting tables.

33:49

I don't care. Like I knew exactly what I was doing.

33:52

And so no, no relationships.

33:54

And he came at the right time.

33:57

He gave me the right time because I was too busy before.

34:00

I mean, I see, I see young people, like I saw like a meme the other day that was just like I'm 29 and I've never been in a relationship.

34:08

And I, and like, it was very, it was very sad.

34:13

And I was like, yo, like I like at 29 I just turned 40, 29.

34:20

Feels like I am pushing a baby stroller with a doll in it.

34:27

Like that's like at 29 really feels like that was Barbies and Legos.

34:31

Right. It's like actually, no, but it just feels so far away.

34:35

And I, I remember feeling that way.

34:39

And then around 34, moving to LA and really just committing to like thinking this shit out.

34:49

Like if it ain't come around and then come around, but I'm gonna figure this shit out.

34:54

And if it diverts me from figuring this shit out and then I got to like divert from them.

35:00

Yeah. So I, it's interesting to hear you speak on that because it is a decisive thing.

35:04

And I think sometimes we don't want to admit that to ourselves and there is a dance that you're doing with time.

35:11

There really is.

35:12

And I don't think it's a matter of like what can't, I just have it all.

35:16

Can we women have it all? Because there is that conversation too.

35:19

Like, why are you saying that there has to be one of the other, and I don't think it's that there has to be one or the other, but there definitely has to be space.

35:24

And oftentimes there just isn't.

35:28

Yeah. You won't know until, you know, I have a friend who got married at 28, she has three kids now.

35:34

She just started pursuing career like five years ago, the youngest girl is four and she, so she's, she did it backwards, you know, but it's just how it works for me.

35:47

I just know that I'm very like all in.

35:49

So it's like, I wasn't going to be able to just be with somebody without it just taking all of my, my cash throwing up behind me, Lando.

36:00

Oh, well I'll clean that up.

36:03

I

36:03

mean,

36:03

it

36:03

was

36:03

just

36:03

me

36:03

Alando

36:03

for

36:03

a

36:03

long

36:03

time,

36:03

but

36:03

I

36:03

really

36:03

feel

36:03

like

36:03

so

36:03

much

36:03

of

36:03

just

36:03

being

36:03

an

36:03

artist

36:03

is

36:03

identifying

36:03

with

36:03

yourself

36:03

and

36:03

learning

36:16

you. And that is what ends up coming out, like in the canvas or in your music or in your writing.

36:22

It's like, I feel more confident now as an artist than I ever have, because I know myself better than I ever have.

36:30

I think part of that was COVID, you know, and the quarantine of things and kind of just like being centered in silent longer than I'd gotten the chance to be for like a very long time.

36:41

And when you said, when you're arguing with people, how that like is like removing you when you're reactionary, like is removing you like that really hit me because there's also you having to take accountability for like your control in those scenarios.

36:57

Like how much are you contributing to you choosing to keep arguing with people to be reactionary.

37:02

And like, sometimes it's a hard decision to excise yourself from these places, even if it's just in the name of you.

37:10

And sometimes maybe you don't want to admit that it's you, but just like, I have to do it for the RS.

37:14

I have to do it for the art.

37:16

It is hard. And then I also realized that you really in your work, when you can go through a breakup and you're asking, still get up and go do what you do When you know, like, this is my shit.

37:30

Like I'm in it now, you know, waiting for inspiration and you break up with your boyfriend and you're like, I can't pay you right down to them too upset.

37:38

And like, you ain't there yet.

37:39

You're not there yet. You're not taking this shit serious.

37:45

That's real because listen, then you'll be living with somebody.

37:48

So there's an argument going like, really like take you off.

37:51

And I know like I, I'm not there yet.

37:54

Cause argument can take me out my bag and I have to like really like recenter with writing.

38:00

It doesn't do that. But with visual art, if I am in any way, just disrupted, it's like, oh, I, I can't, I can't.

38:12

But you said something in this conversation that when I tell you, like, I gotta really sit on this, I got to like chat with the ancestors about it.

38:21

And you were saying that you had to have a conversation with yourself about like, if I'm sitting around a bunch of black artists, like what's my identity in the conversation, like, what am I bringing to the Canon?

38:33

And you know, that's so just literal because it also, but it also encourages you to like see what's out there.

38:45

And I think sometimes folks are afraid to see what's out there.

38:48

I've heard hard to say, like, I don't want to see other people's work because I don't want to be influenced by other people's work.

38:53

And

38:53

I'm

38:53

like,

38:57

I think it's good to go to an art fair, like the armory or like art Basel.

39:00

And you get to see what's happening all over the world at one time, you know, especially with young black artists that have been my students or like that's been mentors of, I feel like it's hard for us to get ahead because we learn our history and then we make work inspired by that history.

39:18

So I feel like every generation is gonna like, make work about the brown paper bag tests or like, you know what I mean?

39:23

It's like the crate Challenge

39:26

You keep repeating and I'm like, learn your history, but then start from here, like figure out how you can speak to that without recycling the idea Without

39:36

being derivative, Without being derivative and like so direct, you know, because like that's been done before and it's been done brilliantly.

39:44

You have to figure out who you are inside of art history.

39:49

Like, I mean, I think that's why like Hindi Wiley's work is it was so smart and it really pushed figurative painting forward because art historians were able to look at his work and see art history in it.

40:05

You know, it's, it's just kind of brilliant.

40:08

Like it's just really brilliant the way that he incorporated European art history and then put in black bodies Flip

40:15

the whole script. It was Hamilton before Hamilton I'm

40:19

reclaiming time. Like that's, I mean, I focused on the American art Canon and American stories and that's, you know, that's, what's really important to me is to represent those stories that were never told and then create my own.

40:31

You know, at the same time I

40:39

met Herbie Hancock one time and he said to me that every human is an artist.

40:43

And I was like, what do you mean? He was like, because just surviving takes creativity.

40:48

And I mean, he was right.

40:50

However, at a more basic level, every human that they're born to create doesn't necessarily take that to the artistic side of things.

40:58

But with Skillshare, if that's something that's like bubbling beneath the surface, you can definitely crack the rock open and let that volcano of creativity and imagination.

41:09

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41:18

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41:21

Now we've been interviewing a lot of different artists in different spaces, visual artists, animated design, et cetera.

41:26

And so it's really like made me say to myself, like I really need to get back into my visual art of things.

41:31

So I decided to take the class illustration and action, creating stylized portraits by Andrea Pippins.

41:37

Who's a designer and illustrator and I was already sold when the ads showed her next to a drawing of Angela Yvonne Davis that said I'm a revolutionary black woman with a big old Afro with a crown on it.

41:49

And I was like, oh, this is the type of class I'm trying to take.

41:51

If we're going to learn how to make things like this, I want to take it.

41:54

And I really feel like when I do these types of classes, it only seems like an hour and 23 minutes when you take the classes.

41:59

But it really does just give you a little extra push and sometimes a major, extra push to really just step into another space of advancing your creativity.

42:08

And as adults, I just feel like we always have to keep being curious and all of us have to keep learning or else we just get bored.

42:16

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42:18

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42:19

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42:22

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42:27

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43:09

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44:04

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44:13

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48:01

So your titles be cracking me up because to me they're random, which is why we will address them in a second.

48:10

But they remind me of YouTube video titles, because like people only like my, my, my social media managers, I was like, y'all got to make better YouTube titles.

48:19

Like people aren't going to just watch the video, because you said it's side effects of any sheriff.

48:23

Like they're going to be like, no, it needs to be like Amy, Cheryl don't fuck with usher.

48:27

Like it needs to have like, it needs to have like pop and it's like Peneche.

48:33

And so I want to definitely talk about your titles, but before we talk about your art, cause I want you to take us through some pieces.

48:39

Art as commerce is such a just sticky situation I feel.

48:46

And so I would love for you to just like talk to us about where it lives for you and like, how do you walk that line of like, well, this is what the market wants, because it really is a pressure.

48:57

Once you have to live off your work to be aware of what is out there and what is creating, you know, income.

49:06

Yeah. Once you making money off of what you do, it's no longer a passion.

49:09

It's your job. First of all.

49:11

So if it feels very different, I tried not to pay attention to the market.

49:17

There's a lot of things happening now with black artists, there's almost like a frenzy around us, which is kind of creepy.

49:24

It's just weird. And I'm waiting for the dust to settle, to like, see, who's actually still going to be there once it's all over.

49:31

But the market it's weird because it's so in the art world, your market value based on like, who represents you as your gallery, you know, so if you have a small gallery and maybe they're only able to sell work from $6,000 to like $50,000, and then you have like the global galleries and people aren't buying work from those galleries until the market value is a million dollars.

49:59

And you know, so it's all kind of like smoke and mirrors.

50:03

You don't want to work to go to an auction like secondary market.

50:07

Like you see work's going to Sotheby's and Phillips because if it sells for too high.

50:13

So say for example, if a younger artists full a lot of work, when they were coming out, they were famous.

50:20

What are the collectors decides to take the work to auction?

50:24

And Sotheby's projects at the sales are going to be like 50 to a hundred thousand for that one work.

50:31

And then it ends up selling for 800,000.

50:34

So then you have to try to figure out how to mine, that gap between what your market value is and what that piece sold for, because you can't just increase your market value to $800,000 because you might not be able to sustain, you know, collectors may not want to buy your work at that price and you can't go backwards.

50:56

You can only go forward. So it's like so many, there's so many things to think about.

50:59

And like the one thing that I did do, and beginning of my career was I was very careful about who I sold my work to and who I placed it with because had I not been, I would be screwed right now.

51:10

So that purchased a work for like less than $10,000.

51:14

The work now is worth a whole lot of money.

51:17

I don't like to talk about my prices in public, but you know, some collectors buy the flip, so they buy your work and they flip it.

51:23

So Hustle, like they flipping you like houses, Right?

51:27

And so it's just really important to make sure that you're selling to the right collectors, that they're collectors that are committed to you and what you do that when they do resell, they'll take it back through the gallery and they're not going to go to Sotheby's because they think they can make more money.

51:41

And I think, you know, there's a lot of black artists, like whose works are going up right now in the auctions, because yeah.

51:49

If our popularity, how am I going to say at the moment, but amongst Right?

51:53

No, it's like a trend for them. So it's like, let's do this right now.

51:57

You see like that, This

51:59

starting out, like people don't realize that like, in all of our history, from cavemen to present lack artists weren't even shown in real spaces until like the 1930s and forties.

52:09

Like not in a real, We

52:12

talk about Monet and claimed at all these people like black artists were not their contemporaries in terms of the commercial space.

52:20

Nope. It was like in Chicago. And I think in Baltimore, in like 1938 or something like that, like Romero, Bearden and Jacob Lawrence, they were giving it at the Baltimore museum and like one institution in Chicago.

52:30

Other than that, they were showing at the Y YMCA, nobody was paying, you know, the value just wasn't there.

52:36

And now, you know, in hindsight, these older black artists that are finally getting their due faith, Ringle.

52:43

Yeah. Literally dying like five years later, you know, because they're in their seventies and eighties.

52:48

It's insane.

52:51

I think it's really dope. Congratulations that the Briana Taylor portrait piece that you did is now in the African-American history museum.

52:57

And when you did that piece, I mean, I'm not going to ask you, like, what made you do that piece?

53:04

Obviously that's obvious when you do a piece though, how do you decide pieces that you keep for you and pieces that you give to the world?

53:14

Or is there a distinction?

53:16

Yeah, I mean, I just, from my last show in LA, I just kept my first piece.

53:21

Cause I could like actually afford to do it in the beginning.

53:23

I was like, I literally had sell everything.

53:25

It's like I had to pay my bills.

53:27

You know, which piece you keep hope is the thing with feathers, not burgundy, but she's got a burnt orange dress on.

53:33

No, no, no. That's that's that's from a show at, not in this one.

53:38

Okay. St. Louis loca.

53:42

What made you keep that piece?

53:44

I'm thinking about it. I don't know. Like I just really like it.

53:46

I don't know some pieces you don't want to part with I'm okay.

53:48

With all of them, but like also keeping your work as an artist, it's like for your retirement plan as well.

53:53

So you wait until your prices go up and then you can sell.

53:56

And like, so yeah, I just, just my connection to them.

54:00

Like, I really liked that one. It was really simple. They only have four colors of the whole painting and I just really loved it.

54:04

And then with Brianna, obviously that's not a painting that can be sold.

54:08

Right. So like, I can only imagine, like if, if I had like the whole that painting to the MoMA or something, like she doesn't belong to the moment.

54:16

Right. And so I had to make a decision about what I wanted to do with it.

54:20

And for me, it was important that it goes to her hometown of Louisville.

54:24

So conversation started with the speed museum and then we brought in a black curator and then promise witness remembrance was the child born from all of that.

54:33

And so her portrait being the key focus and the exhibition being about gun violence in general.

54:39

So the black Sonia and I call it the black Sony and they both own the painting.

54:43

So it was co acquired and I'm donating the money to an institution in Louisville for scholarships and fellowships for students that are interested in social, You

54:55

can be an ally, right? You can be at anything, but, But

55:00

they'll have scholarships throughout their four year undergraduate degree.

55:05

And for law students that want to work in public interest and say like a Brian Stevens and, you know, he went to Alabama and did that work for free.

55:12

He will be able to get a Briana Taylor legacy fellowship to do that work so you can do it still pay his rent at the same time.

55:19

I know y'all hear that dope.

55:22

That's what moving forward.

55:24

But reaching back is that's what that is.

55:26

Well,

55:26

we

55:26

have

55:26

a

55:26

segment

55:26

on

55:26

the

55:26

show

55:26

called

55:26

the

55:26

scrape

55:26

where

55:26

we

55:26

ask

55:26

our

55:26

guests

55:26

to

55:26

basically

55:26

kind

55:26

of

55:26

provide

55:26

our

55:26

listeners

55:26

with

55:26

some

55:26

supplementary

55:26

materials

55:26

to

55:26

support

55:26

the

55:44

conversation. So like, are there, I mean, you, you did mention some books earlier in the show, but is there any books or artists or films or movies that you feel like folks should check out that would bring them closer to the Amy Gerald world on canvas?

55:58

One of my favorite documentaries is by photographer and filmmaker, Deborah Willis.

56:02

And it's called through a lens darkly, watch it on Amazon prime, but it's about the history of photography and us, right.

56:12

You know, the invention of the camera and representation.

56:15

And I taught art in Baltimore city jail.

56:18

And I share this film with the guys there and it just like blew their minds because you really understand that if it wasn't for the invention of the camera, that you also understand the importance of photography and, you know, you can really understand why Frederick Douglas was like, so into being photographs and like why that was so important because he realized that representation really like images changed the way people think, right.

56:43

Media. Yeah. Media Through

56:45

a lens starkly.

56:46

All right.

56:48

All right. So I'm starting a new segment with my artists where I will show you a piece of your work.

56:56

And I would love for you to just talk us through that piece.

56:59

And since I have been so fortunate to be one of the people that you feel comfortable talking to, I am very excited to do that.

57:07

And so we're going to do a few pieces.

57:10

Okay. So this is the first piece you may right here.

57:13

I call him black Garth Brooks, Barth Brooks, but you call him what's precious inside of him does not care to be known by the mind in ways that diminish its presence in parentheses all American 2017.

57:25

So before we even get into him, please explain to me the titles, because usually people's titles is like black men with hats and you're giving us poetry with the pieces.

57:38

Yeah. You know, it started with poetry.

57:40

It started with a poet that I was partnered with by the museum, like a long time ago that I had to make a painting.

57:47

Poet wrote a poem.

57:48

And in that poem, she had a line that was well-prepared and maladjusted.

57:53

And I ended up naming my painting after that line because it really fit.

57:59

And after that, I felt like it was just a really interesting way to tell a story and to speak to the work without instructing the viewer.

58:09

Like what to think, you know, I love that piece so much.

58:14

There's one of my favorite favorite paintings, but I think it starts with the moment when I was studying with this artist in Norway and his name is odd Nerdrum and I'm probably the only black person that's ever studied with him in the history of like, he's like the modern day Rembrandt.

58:32

But how did you like find him? Is it because when you said that it made me think of like kill bill and her going to study with pine Mae.

58:40

She was like the only white woman that had ever gotten the chance to like study with, by me.

58:44

I didn't get, so like what made you go study with this Norwegian master?

58:50

There's a book in the library at Maryland Institute college of art where I was going to school and something about it.

58:57

I don't know. Like, it definitely wasn't the images because this palette is like very Norwegian.

59:00

It's like grays and like, you know, very cloudy day-ish, you know, I call it Caribbean palette.

59:07

It was something about his work.

59:09

I have no idea. Like I sought him out and it just so happened.

59:14

He came to speak at the school and I was introduced to him.

59:18

And he's like, what are you doing after school? And I said, I want to come work with you when he said, okay, cool.

59:21

Talk to my wife. And I'm like cookie pool, Talk

59:25

to my wife. I don't want to mean, I don't want you to name.

59:32

And then somebody asked me if I can give him a ride to the train station.

59:34

And I said, yes, but it didn't have a car.

59:36

But like, I really wanted to like that time.

59:38

So then like, I was like running around 10 funds in my car.

59:41

So that happened. And I ended up going there and it like changed my life.

59:45

I need to, I need everybody to listen. Now you see that was innovation.

59:48

It wasn't like you could have just easily been like, okay, whatever.

59:52

And that would have just been that.

59:54

And let me tell you car rides, I have read are like very good spaces for connection by nature of the fact that you're basically in a movie you're in this patient.

1:00:05

Yeah. This us. Right.

1:00:07

But okay. I guess I'll try it again.

1:00:10

So I went over there and, you know, a lot of people were anti-American at that time because we had started the war that we just ended.

1:00:20

And George

1:00:22

Bush time. Yeah. George Bush time.

1:00:24

And people saw me as an American trippy because I felt like I had only been seen by my race.

1:00:34

And I'd never really like in Georgia American flags don't make you feel warm and fuzzy.

1:00:39

Like they just mean that you might be in a threatening situation and it's weird.

1:00:43

Cause it's just the American flag. It doesn't even have to be the Confederate flag.

1:00:46

And I still feel that way about it.

1:00:47

So I was like, wow.

1:00:50

They call me at American.

1:00:51

Like this is, I am an American, you know, like I really am an American, like I need to embrace that.

1:00:57

I don't need to push it off because in doing so I'm like disrespecting the ancestors.

1:01:00

Like it's really important that for me, it was really important that I start to reclaim that.

1:01:06

And that was the first thing that I did was like to make this painting because I mean, I don't know about you, but every time I hear somebody talk about our forefathers, I'm like, they wouldn't be who they were without the ancestors doing the work, you know, like without enslaved people doing the work.

1:01:27

So you, you, you got to tell the whole story and the blood on that flag is our blood, you know?

1:01:32

So that's, I feel very strongly about that.

1:01:34

So I'm not letting those craziest just be the ones that are controlled interact with something that was birthed from people that came over here and receive nothing And

1:01:48

somehow managed to create everything.

1:01:52

Right. Right. That's the fascinating part, you know, the godliness of black folks in the ability to make something of nothing over and over and over and over and over again, you know?

1:02:03

So this next piece, I love a houndstooth, a clear unspoken, granted magic and all of these pieces by the way, are from an exhibit that Amy did in St.

1:02:16

Louis. And this is a book.

1:02:18

My mom got me because my mom buys me art books.

1:02:21

That's like her thing. And I really love, I just love what I love about the women's faces and your pieces.

1:02:28

Their faces are always kind of like, but it's not spank as much as it's just like you see.

1:02:36

So

1:02:36

that

1:02:36

intentional

1:02:42

Kind of intentional. Yeah. I mean, going back to Deborah Willis, like I guess more reading materials, she also published a book called the history of the black female body.

1:02:50

And I came across that book in graduate school and it really informed my perspective on us and all those images were taken inside profile.

1:03:01

And again, like the front facing gays, because it's like a soft confrontation of recognition, some portraits you might see them and they're passive.

1:03:13

So like the viewer and the model or the subject are not interacting at all.

1:03:19

You're just there to look at the subject.

1:03:21

But in my pain there to be present with you and to have a conversation about whatever it is that you want to talk about.

1:03:29

Right. They're present, they know they're working, they're working.

1:03:32

The Michelle portrait is she's, she's basically she's leaning on her knee.

1:03:36

Like, don't talk to me. What's y'all got to say like, that's her part?

1:03:41

Her pose even speaks to like, as if she's conversing with the viewer or listening intently, like, you know, what are, y'all what y'all thinking.

1:03:52

Yeah. Would you say that?

1:03:53

Cause I'm trying to give listeners like a point of reference.

1:03:56

So would like, would the Mona Lisa be a passive portrait?

1:04:01

She's pretty like coming at you.

1:04:04

Right. You know, where the subject might be looking away or they might be appearing out of a window or they might be peering past Like

1:04:12

the girl with the painted hearing, painted veil.

1:04:15

What is it? I can tell you every NAS record from Illmatic distill medic, but painting titles.

1:04:23

I'm like, you know, the one with the, you know, she got in the moon, you know, and th they made a movie mad, you know, with the Pearl always.

1:04:37

So then when I get to your titles, I'm just like, oh, she made it very difficult for me.

1:04:42

Ah, title. Sometimes I was like, I'm glad you told me what that was.

1:04:46

Cause I was about to be like, what's the name of it?

1:04:49

So this is our last piece.

1:04:50

And I love this piece because I'm, I grew up in Orlando, Florida, and it used to really be a thing to go and see the space shuttle go up.

1:05:00

I mean, that was like a thing.

1:05:03

And my mom would always make our big thing and everyone goes outside and you watch the shuttle go up and you wait for the Sonic boom.

1:05:13

And it was a whole thing. And this piece is called planes rockets and the spaces in between 2018.

1:05:19

And so I would love to hear more about like what inspired this piece and why the little boy is looking at the rocket and the young woman is looking at us, The

1:05:29

two girls, everybody thinks that's a little boy, but she has on a denim skirt.

1:05:33

It looked like a boy with a high booty, like a Trevor Noah booty.

1:05:37

Yeah. Okay. It's still girls, you know what?

1:05:41

We didn't even get that close, but you're right. She does have on a denim skirt, you know, because we see a body and we like, oh, this must be a boy.

1:05:46

Even though black women have been rocking bodies from the beginning of time.

1:05:49

So why is one looking at this one is looking like, I just need to understand the space.

1:05:54

I need to understand the whole thing. Cause I love this piece.

1:05:56

If I could afford it, I would buy this piece that it was available.

1:05:59

I really, at that point, I think I started to shift my focus because that was one of the first larger paintings that I had done.

1:06:06

So up until that point, they had been like the, the individual portraits, they're 54 inches by 43 inches.

1:06:13

And I wanted to focus on like an iconic American moment and something that represented American power.

1:06:22

I am a hundred by 67 inches.

1:06:26

All right. Pretty tall.

1:06:30

I see the scaffold behind you. So I was like, oh, that's what that's about.

1:06:33

Got it. Yeah. It's the fun part.

1:06:35

So that was the beginning of, of that.

1:06:38

So, so since then I've made images that come from a conic American photographs, like I've recreated them, but that one was me recreating my own.

1:06:46

And still at that point, I wasn't comfortable with having both of them facing the rocket ship.

1:06:52

Like I needed one of them to acknowledge the presence of the viewer and make them either feel like they're not welcome or that they're welcome interrupting something.

1:07:01

Right. But I think eye contact for me, like really it brings a soul to the work that I think is really important.

1:07:10

You know? Not that I don't think like abstract work is important because I think that's probably some of the hardest painting that you can do is the most intuitive kind of painting practice that you can have.

1:07:20

But I think figurative painting is like the soul food of art, no matter how high brow it gets or how conceptual it is, where you're just like, why is this banana taped to the wall?

1:07:34

Like, what's the meaning behind figurative work to me is like the soul food of like visual language.

1:07:39

And so I think for me, that's why our contact is really important because it connects you to the human in the painting and it connects you to your own humanity at the same time.

1:07:48

I see, I do abstract.

1:07:50

I feel like it's straddles.

1:07:53

Like I, I can do portraits, but it's not like my favorite thing, but I love eyes, eyes and lips, like are my favorite things to put on canvas, eyes and lips.

1:08:05

Well, my last question is, you know, when you're painting, do you paint multiple pieces at a time?

1:08:09

Do you focus on one?

1:08:11

Is it a, at this point now that you are a V Amy Sherylls, do you find that there's a pressure to be more prolific?

1:08:20

How do you keep up with the grandeur of what you have created with your brilliance?

1:08:26

Well, I am a slow painter, so I will never make more than 10 to 12 paintings a year.

1:08:33

Say for, to say 10 paintings a year.

1:08:35

It allows me to stay connected to the work and to like enjoy what I'm doing.

1:08:40

And painting is like only, I mean, there's so much that goes into making a piece before you start making the beats and finding what the model's going to wear.

1:08:52

I mean, it takes time.

1:08:54

Sometimes I might find like I had, I had a dress for two years before I found the right model for it.

1:08:59

And then that painting is able to come to life.

1:09:01

How do you know it's the right model when you find them?

1:09:04

It's like, it's, it's all intuitive.

1:09:07

Like, there's really no words. It's like how you recognize yourself in somebody like, or yeah.

1:09:12

Like when you see people, you meet your boyfriend or your husband or your girlfriend, it's like something about that person.

1:09:18

And I guess they're there.

1:09:20

They do have qualities that I call like they're, they're damp, which means like, like their souls feel a little weighted, but in a good way, you know, because I have approached people and then like talk to them and I've been like, they feel like they've only been here once.

1:09:36

It was something to a live soul versus like a brand new school Necessary for that energy exchange that happens between the painter and the model that allows the painting to feel so real.

1:09:52

Even though it's not painted like hyper realism, you know, it's like one good example of that is Alice Neil's portraits.

1:09:59

If you've ever seen her work, she's a very stylized painter, but her paintings still alive.

1:10:10

Mm Yep. I have to be rendered to like, look like real life.

1:10:13

Like the soul of the work is there.

1:10:16

And that's, I think that's like something that happens between the subject and the, the painter that I think is pretty magical.

1:10:23

Because once you, I could show you a painting that doesn't have it and a painting that does, it could be a landscape and you could see the difference.

1:10:32

So some people have this magic touch and some people don't, it's hard to explain, but I have to, you can't say You're

1:10:40

explaining it. No, I, I definitely, it's the reason why some surfers get more dollars than others, you know, it's, it's, it's a thing.

1:10:48

It's a spark.

1:10:50

You might call it charisma.

1:10:51

You might call it being tapped in, you know, but some folks just got that bang about them that resonates beyond just the surface.

1:11:04

And then when you know that about yourself and you see it in another person, it's a, it's kind of like a, it's a touchstone, you know, and it's a ITI phone home type.

1:11:12

Like, oh, we both not from here.

1:11:17

Got it. Okay.

1:11:18

To me, that's what the feeling is when you're like, oh, so we both, the ship is going to take both of us.

1:11:25

Okay. Cause I feel like when I need you, I'm like, oh, you're from here.

1:11:28

So we're different.

1:11:29

Some of us aren't from here and some of us are from here and it's really just dope to get to speak to another alien.

1:11:38

And I am so honored that you would be willing to give us your time and to talk to us.

1:11:46

Just so in-depth about your process and about your work and your super cool aims.

1:11:51

I don't know if you noticed, but like you, that you got a swag about you.

1:11:56

Okay. Like you got definitely the swag.

1:11:59

I feel like you was definitely in like you as an extra in there around the way girl video, like that's the energy you're getting.

1:12:05

So that's a compliment.

1:12:09

So receive it The

1:12:14

last.

1:12:19

So you do have the portrait tour going on.

1:12:23

So can you please let people know how they can get an opportunity to view your work live and in full effect?

1:12:29

B I just know, after November 6th, you'll be able to see it in LA, at Los Angeles county museum of art and check the website for the dates and then it's going to Atlanta and it might be going to Houston, but no.

1:12:41

So do you come with the piece, like, do you, like, it's like a package deal.

1:12:45

Like we get to see the piece and Amy, Not

1:12:47

all the time and LA Hinden are being honored at the film was art gala that they, that they have every year along with Steven Spielberg.

1:12:57

So that's why we're coming out for that.

1:13:00

Okay. The light company. Cool.

1:13:02

Yeah. Just, you know, med, But

1:13:05

I didn't go to the Chicago opening, but I might go to the Atlanta opening obviously because I'm from Georgia.

1:13:09

Oh yeah. I see. You gotta do that. Just, this is a big middle finger.

1:13:13

Like the petty in me is like, yeah, mother fuckers.

1:13:15

Or you can come with a lighter soul and be like, I'm here to share with my community either way.

1:13:19

I feel like it's the right choice.

1:13:20

Well,

1:13:20

thank

1:13:20

you

1:13:20

so

1:13:25

much. And we will continue to support your work and I can't wait to meet you in person.

1:13:28

I can't wait to see your work in person.

1:13:30

And, and thank you for being the first artists in our small doses artist series, The

1:13:44

podcast network. Wanna tell you about a fantastic podcast called Go Offsys from the un bothered Team at Refinery twenty nine. Now in its fifth Season, Go Offices is pressing the restart button and getting real on what life for black woman in America means now. Join the Go Off Sister Hood by subscribing to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. so funky. So far, Today begins, the first ever of my small doses are to series, and I'm very excited because we are popping things off, jumping things off with somebody who is much more, then Michelle Obama's portrait artist. Okay. So I wanna start us off there. Even though that may have been the entry point to many of you all, to her work. Miss Amy Sherald been at this game baby for quite some time And we are so honored to have you here on small doses. And let me make it be known that she didn't inform me that, like, she don't really be doing this, but she fuck with me. So that's why she's doing it. And I will take that and receive that wholeheartedly. Yes, Yes. No, it's a pleasure to meet a pleasure to meet you. III do adore you very much. Ditto. Thank you very much. So, you know, I wanted to start this series because and you actually mentioned this a bit off camera how, like, you know, if people are not, like, in the art world. If they're not art heads, then they're not necessarily up on, like, black art or just on art. But there's a number of reasons why, like folks need to just be up on art. And for all of our activists out there, on a basic note, it's because art appreciates. it. So you could buy the Dodge chargers in the world, but they're never going to add up to an art piece that can actually continue to grow and be a part of So you could buy all the Dodge Chargers in the world, but they're never gonna add up to an art piece that can actually continue to grow and be a part of legacy and it's an heirloom, etcetera. And I'm always just wanting black folks consider other ways that we continue to grow wealth because we all know that unless the aliens come and like eradicate everything and we go back to using carrioles, like, that's gonna be the wealth and education, I believe, are like them, the the way out. But nonetheless, so tell us on a basic I know you've been asked this question a million times, but What brought you to the Canvas? I always say this is what I was born to do. I don't know what else I would doing. Like, second grade, I was drawing. Maybe I would have been a chef or, like, a wine from me or something like that because I worked as a wait till I was, like, thirty seven support myself. What's that? Right. But it's in my blood. It's in my bones. And when I say that I think about my mother who was born in nineteen thirty five in Mobile, Alabama, and she was a painter and went to one year of art school, but being an artist wasn't something that was like a possibility. You know what I mean? Like, Even when I told her I wanted to be an artist, she still didn't understand what that meant. And although she encouraged me, all through my childhood, I had art classes three days a week and all of that. And she was still surprised when I said that I wanted to go to school and not be a dentist, but be a painter. Right? So Sherald didn't start taking me seriously until, like, I remember at the unveiling of the portraits, we were walking back to the press room to take pictures. And Barak was like, you must be really proud of your daughter. And she looked it up too him and she was like, well, I gotta be honest with you. I don't really think this art thing was gonna work out. You're gonna be You say your mother's not west your mother's not West Indian? This sounds very very Caribbean. And I'm like, wow, mom. But yeah. I mean, she was the kind of mother that I needed because I needed somebody to prove wrong. And I spent thirty eight, thirty nine, forty years doing that until it finally, you know, started to to happen. And you're always waiting for that break. And my break was the at one week for a portrait competition with the Smithsonian. And she came to the press preview when they wanted to interview her, and she was like, wow. Like, you're kind of a big deal. And I'm like, I saw We all had that moment. Right? Like, I had this I had, like, checked Caitlyn Jenner at this dinner and it, like, went viral. Say that all the time. I was like, wow. Thank you. And my mom didn't like, even like insecure, it'd been on for like, I mean, I think maybe like two seasons at that And my mom didn't like, even like, insecurity had been on for, like, I mean, think maybe, like, two seasons at that point. Like, she, like, she just was not getting it. And then, like, we went to Florida Mall. We went to, like, the Mall of Millennia and Orlando. And I got recognized three different times. But specifically by three different groups of people, it was like a straight guy, like a gay guy, and then like a white girl. My mom was like, mom was like, You're really doing something out there in Los Angeles. I'm like, you know, lady, I it took Mall of Millennia and people recognizing me here for you to really I feel like I was doing something, but you're right. It's like that, in case you humble too, you know, and it keeps you, like, pushing. It does. It's good. But Baby, I think we're the same I think we're the same age. Are you an eighty one baby? I'm seventy three. You're seventy three? Oh, girl. I feel like I'm almost fifty. I just served forty eight, but it's like I feel like I'm almost fifty. No. You can't feel like you're almost fifty. You don't look like you're almost fifty because mailing in. It's Amazing. I think aging is wonderful. And maybe because I feel like I feel like I feel like cute. I didn't look cute. Maybe I wasn't quite. Three nine seventy three, born in the south, like, just still the fumes of, like, civil rights movement was, like, still in the air in Georgia and Columbus where was born. It was it was still very much like black and white city growing up there. In that that respect, were this was this so you said you went to art classes three times a week? Like, were those classes diverse? Or, like, what were you facing in those moments? It was, you know, I mean, my parents wanted what was best for was you know, I mean, my parents wanted what was best for me, and you know, my mom came from an era where, I mean, people were still it's weird to think this way, but, like, licensed people were Sherald, like, asking people. Like, it was still, like, very much -- Mhmm. -- about making sure that your child can assimilate was why my name is Amy. You know, like, not accentuating the differences. You know? So my brother and I, we both went to private catholic schools. And we were the only black people in the school. Like, it was me and this other guy named Ken and, like, that was it. Ken. Yeah. Shout to Ken. You know, like, Ken kinda wasn't on the team. And by the way, I was in the same situation and his name was by the way, I was in the same situation, and his name was Kenny. Oh, wow. That's funny. And he wasn't on the team? Yeah. So it wasn't. I mean, my art teacher was a white woman named Jerry a Davis and bless her heart. She was the first person to teach me that I should be painting my own ideal. You know? That painting white ballerinas and, like, all the other stuff that I was looking at wasn't what I should be drawing about. Like, I should be drawing about myself and telling my own story. But, yeah, it's an experience that shaped me and, you know, I left I went to school with the same people from k to twelve. Right? So St. Anne's Wow. And then I left to go to HBCU, but it was just an interesting dynamic because despite the fact that I went to school with the same people for 12 years, I didn't feel very connected to them at I'll have to go to a HBCU. But it was just an interesting dynamic because if despite the fact that I went to school with the same people for twelve years, I didn't feel very connected to them at all. You know? Was it just because you were the one black girl, or was it also because, like, they just made no effort? To have any connection. I feel like I was always neutral. You know? Like, by the time we got to high school, there were it was a high school of four hundred people and there were probably about twenty black people out of four hundred, and I always remain neutral. Like, they would kind of talk about the other black girls maybe because my dad was dentist and they were like, you know, these girls go to this school and they could pay the tuition, but they they're not like us. You're black, but you're not, like, black, black. Yeah. It was a lot of that. It was a lot of that. Because the Columbus people, like, even in the Church Drug Group, then people didn't understand how my mom could be brown. And me and my brother could be light skinned with brown hair and he has blue eyes. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. There was a lot of white people that had not experienced black people until they met me in high school. That were like, you put car oil in your hair or just craziness. Like, your parents aren't doing your job. Like, they they need to your parents are like, they're not doing a good job raising you. It still amazes me to this day that because I've, like, gone to colleges in the middle of, you know, behind God's back, Pennsylvania. And you're I'd be like speaking to audiences of kids who are like, I've never seen the black person until I came to this school. And you're like, But III mean, you're missing out. We're fabulous. But I can't be the only black person. I'm sorry. Like, I can't be your only black friend. So go get five friends and then talk. So what made you decide? You know what? I got to go to this HBCU. I needed to be, I just needed to be around my needed to be I just needed to be around people. I mean, that's just how I felt. Because it could I got another way, you know what I'm gone another way. You know what I'm saying? Like, you could have been like, you know what? I'm light bright. I'm a just lean in and call it. Light bright, old yellow, big bass. I had all the names. No. My dad went to more house. Yeah. That's what it is. I was actually out of his house. But my dad went to more house. He went to dental school at Howard. And Okay. Just felt like, you know, you're just on in a different way. And I think for the first time, like, going to Clark Atlanta, and just being me and, like, you know, you you don't have to, like, decode Like, if you get a bad grade, your ass just got a bad grade. Like, it's not because you know you know how to do, like, six group intentions. And I felt like I could just be in my body in a different and I felt like I could just be in my body in a different way. Probably needed that. How did your art shift in that from that transition? I mean, our art shifts over the of our lifetime. Like I'm in a moment right now where I hate everything I've ever painted and like, I put it up, but I'm I'm in a moment right now where I hate everything I've ever painted. And, like, I put it up, but I'm like, Like, I love that. I love that. It's like a phone call over your house. At this point, it's a merchant therapy. It's like, you need to still love these pieces. I pay everything I pay too. It's still this will never leave you. Some days, I walk in and I'm like, I don't even know why. Here's, like, All these paintings are stupid. And then sometimes, I'm, like, on the bottom, and this is great, you know. But it it changed from you know, when I went to college, I met my first, like, real live working artist, and he just happened to be a Panamanian, and he was my painting instructor. And he gave me the vision that I needed to understand that this is something that I could actually do. How did he do that? Because we have a lot of creatives that listen to this podcast. And they I feel like that's a question that they ask me all the time. And my answer is often just that, like, it's different for everybody. You know, like, everyone kind of is ignited in that course by different things. Like for me, you know, it's one thing for you, it's another. So what was it about what he illuminated to you that made you be like, oh, I can do this. For me, one, it was it was meeting a man that was selling prints on the app. And the app is, like, the street that went from campus. And he was just selling, like, black art, like, posters and stuff. And one day, I was like, I'm an artist. And he was like, oh, yeah. You know, let me see somebody at work. So I run back to my dorm. I come back. And I have this this drawing that I did with prism, pencil, and ink, and it's like a picture of a African woman with like a red turban on, and she's crying a tear, and I torn out of a newspaper and put it on backwards, two words that said racial balance. And It got into a competition at University of Georgia, and I got, like, honorable mention or something. So, like, it was my pride and joy. And I showed and he's like, are you your art major? I'm like, no. I'm pre bed. He's like, you know, my dad wanted me to take over a dental practice whatnot. And he was like, you know, if you don't use your talent, you'll lose your talent. And that's what triggered me to change my major without telling my parents. And, you know, meeting our true Lindsay and him sending us to see a show of his at a gallery in Atlanta. And I was like, this is amazing. Like, know, I had two moments. That was my second moment and the first moment was seeing a painting of a black man at the museum when I was in the sixth grade. And that painting was made by a white man who was painting himself as a black man, but I didn't know at the time. It was a substitute. Black. Yeah. We need to get him on the show. I'm like, so tell walk me through the journey. So that was the introduction, and I think it just started there. Like, I just knew it's what I wanted to do. I don't know how to describe it, but it's all I ever put my focus on. I never put my focus on anything else. I never got caught up in, like, trying to be a cool kid or, like I mean, you were trying to please your parents. I want you to talk about that. But then Arturo Lindsay was like Yeah. Come on now. You better get that racial and balanced tier out here to the people. And I had the bag to be put in his class. Cause it was already it was already overbooked because everybody already wanted to be in its class. And so he had too many students in and one student dropped out. So I was able to get in. Who's that one student? Can we send them an Amazon gift card? Like, thank you. I don't know. But, yeah, so I started painting and didn't know where to start. Like, how do you start painting? Like, you you know So you weren't painting up until that point you were using So you weren't painting up until that point. You were using what medium? You know, I did, like, obligatory mouths, Davis, you know, like, I would open up natural geographic and, like, find a picture that I wanted to copy. You know what I mean? So I hadn't found my own voice yet. It was just like landscapes and bunnies. And Watercolor or acrylic or or acrylic or oil, what medium? In my after school classes, we did water color oil and acrylic. You did it all? Don't fuck with oil. I don't like it. I don't You wouldn't like would like it if you use a dryer. I don't do wet or wet. I'm not interested in not interested in it. It's a It's resin. It's mud. Yeah. But if you use liquid, then it's dry the next day. Like, accrual it. So you have the whole day to work it out. It, like, stays and then you stop at a certain point and you come back in the next day it's dry. So it's like layer by layer. Okay. Apprylic is like instant gratification. You can just paint, paint, paint, paint, paint, paint, paint, and so your heart's desire. But oil gives you the manipulation that you don't have with acrylic, and it's kinda interesting too. In my laser life, I plan to really commit myself to my art. Yeah. And my mom has always said, well, you know, TV is gonna get you rich, but the painting's gonna make you wealthy. And I'm like, I don't know if that's actually true, but it's nice to think so. What? Anita. Okay. Yeah. My part is from Trinidad, so I I'm listening to you, and I feel like I'm I'm talking to Edwina. Well, all treated Adyans are actually, like, one generation from Granita. I mean, I'm sure Edwina would be like, oh, I mean, no, my grandma is green. Yeah. Like, that's like, it's it's right there. Same cuisine, same food, better beaches. There's Yeah. There's that. There's that. So come on bye. So come on bye. The the Spice Island and and come and check us out. But I really I really just love hearing people's process to how they realize what their style was. Because style is tough. It is tough. It's your whole identity. You have to figure out what your DNA is and it can take I didn't make that first painting that I knew was, like, gonna be the rest of my life paintings until thirty four. What? Alright. So you make a whole lot of shitty work before you make some good work. So like an undergrad, I started with self portraits and then I was painting these alien women. I had external spinal cords and they communicated through mental telepathy and, like, the world had been blown up and this dragon goddess name where Seifa had come down and, like, taking these women back to her planet. It was just like and I had never really Where's the graph a big novel. I wanna read it. No. It was that for a while. And at that time I had my head at that time, I had my head shaved. Oh, so you were in it? Like Well, wow. Not really, but, like, my mom, it was like, yeah. Hold on. I got the 3PCI got two tattoos that I'm literally getting removed like now. What are they of? Please tell me No. They're like embarrassing. No. Indeed. It's really bad. It's really bad. Wait. That one? Where do we see it? Is this? What's this saying? Is this a Chinese character? Thong and tall. It's in the garbage. What does painting on the canvas? This is one of those things where, like, you wake up, you're twenty one, and you got, like, fifty dollars and you go to the tattoo parlor and realize that you can't afford anything. And so you, like, mister Wall, you, like, I'll take that one. one. But I think I went to like a Chinese English But I think I went to, like, a Chinese English dictionary. I have a transtamp. So I have a transtamp too. But when you get tattoos removed, it's a we're getting sidetracked. We're never sidetracked, but it's a whole thing because this is a laser and it hurts. Right? Yeah. They numb my arm. So I was trying to get all them removed at one time. So I have, like, that Cisco dragon on my neck. You remember what the dragon? 00I remember the dragon. And to the dragon? So that was the one. The dragon. You can only get so much lighter skin in your body at one time. So they Oh. I'm just getting these now because they're the most important. So they just numb this, so you don't feel it. it. But when I was trying to get them all numb, they could only numb like parts of But when I was trying to get them all numb, they could only numb, like, parts of it, and it's the worst pain I've ever felt in my life. Have you ever had an IUD put in? Yes. And it was the Wow. I believe we just, like, holding fire to your arm. Like, distantly because it's it's burning the skin, basically, or however it does. The the skin turns white. It's weird. Because when I got an IUD put in, I thought You know what? This is I don't ever need This is the worst. I've literally looked at the doctor. I was like, please stop it. I I, like, cursed them all out and was like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. Now Now, listen. A podcast from Netflix and strong black lead, hosted by culture, Queens, Scottie beam and A podcast from Netflix and Strong Black Lead hosted by Culture Queen's Scotiabank and Sylvia. Oh, bell, these best friends talk openly and honestly, and about what's on their Obel. These best friends talk openly and honestly, and about what's on their minds. What they're bingeing and was blowing up their what they're binging and what's blowing up their timelines. They cover everything from our favorite nineties, blast six black They cover everything from our favorite nineties, classics, Black classic. That definitely is something that I would say because I've been doing the L in front of boards for quite some time on smart bunny and that definitely is something that I would say because I've been doing BL in front of words for quite some time on smart funny and black. So I'm going to say that they were inspired by me to Jasmine Sullivan's hotels, to the Twitter threads, keeping us cackling and the reality TV moments that created hashtag sunset shorties plus exclusive interviews with the biggest names on Netflix, like spike Lee, N Zen day at new episodes drop every other Thursday, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and follow at strong black lead on social for So I'm gonna say that they were inspired by me. To Jasmine's Sullivan's Hotels, to the Twitter thread's keeping us tackling at the reality TV moments that created hashtag sunset shorties plus exclusive interviews with the biggest names on net likes like Spike Lee and Zendaya. New episodes dropped every other Thursday. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and follow at strong black lead on social for updates. 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So make sure you go to athletic greens.com/doses to take control of your health and give AIG one a So make sure you go to athleticgreens dot com slash doses to take control of your health and give AG one a try. So the television producer in me is like, I think there's a show with Griselda. And It was weird. It was it was I just I had to make up my own world. Yeah. I heard powers from the series a star and the series b star, which like, where the Besai warriors. Right? Kenya. Yeah. Where they feel very connected to those stars. So it went from that to some really bad work in grad school. Why was it bad work? call it my Sherald McLaughlin phase. phase. It was like a lot of cocoons and was like a lot of cocoons and feathers and like I love this because it's really I feel like a lot of people don't understand and particularly because I feel like this generation I won't even say this generation but all of us in this world right now. Like, if we're on social media even in the most benign of ways, there's just this expectancy for perfection and it's like when you're in process, like no one's too good to not be good. Like, I think that that's, like, a incredibly important part of an artist's career and their process. And you know, while you're in that moment, you think you're killing it, but Ira Glass is a really good talk on taste. And I share it with anybody who asked me about process because, you know, at the time, you're like, yeah, this is pop in and then, you know, you start to transition and that awkward phase of, like, oh, shit, don't like my shit, is actually the bridge to, like, you about to have a new breakthrough. So it's, like, just, like, push Drew. Would you agree? Yeah. You just have to keep working. You just have to make the bad stuff and you're gonna think it's great. And when you look back, you're gonna be like, my friends aren't my friends. They tell me my work. It's like, this whack. But I try to teach my students that because I feel like they think that it should just be, like, perfect the first time. And I didn't really learn that I thought I wasn't a good writer, but I didn't realize on my thirties that it's like multiple drafts. You know what I mean? For some reason, I was on the assumption people just, like, sit down and they write something, and I felt perfect the first time. And I was struggling, and then I just wasn't smart enough to, like, figure it out and I wasn't a good writer. But I realize that my writing process is exactly same as my painting process, which it's a process. You start painting you unpaint some stuff, you might start over, I mean, until you figure out what it is that you're doing. And I don't believe in, like, mental blocks. I think that some people just don't have they haven't lived enough to have enough to, like, build a visual language around it. You know what I mean? It takes Same more. Same more. Just takes life to to make work. You know, if you want it to be important, if you want it to be sophisticated, if you want it to tell a story if you wanted to, you know, whatever you wanted to speak to, it takes life in order to make good work. Otherwise, you you know, you might just be pushing pain around. Like, you just kinda push and pain around. But I think if you're really thinking about being an artist and it's really about developing, like, connecting to a narrative. And, like, before I became known for what I do now, I was trying to figure out, like, what my voice would be amongst all my contemporaries. And at that point in time, like, nobody knew who I was. And was looking at different black and I'm like, if we were all sitting down in a room, who would I be? Like, how would I speak up amongst all these other voices? And I had an epiphany and I realized that at that moment, this is, like, in two thousand and eight, that nobody was making work about black people just being themselves. Like, everything was a didactic moment or about our revolution, great revolution or whatever, but I realized that I I think I was leaving Carewalkers submission at The Whitney and her work is really powerful. And I realized in that moment that there has to be this, like, resting place for us to come to see ourselves reflected in ways that are beautiful and thoughtful and present and, you know, self satisfied and just be in us without all of the other stuff that, you know, we I I feel like and I really went through this because I spent from thirty to forty years old in my mind. I was gonna die when I was forty because I was like, I have heart failure. I've been living with it for this long. You don't want me to be diagnosed with heart failure. At thirty coming out of grad school. I was diagnosed. So I had eight. My heart function was at my heart function was at eighteen percent. And did you just, like, was it, like, you noticed it over time or just, like, one day, it was, like, No. I never had any symptoms. So, you know, how athletes just might be playing basketball, and I'll say goodbye. It just would have been one of those things. That was training for a triathlon, but I just happened to go to a doctor and they just happen to run these tests, and we just happen to find out. So I lived with for a long time, but you know, people die waiting for organs all the time. So in my mind, I'm like, well, this is it, you know. So I really have to figure this stuff out. I see. You felt like your mortality was pushing you -- Yeah. -- to identify what your purpose was. Yeah. My purpose and, like, just who I am, like, who am I besides Amy Sherald, born in the south, daughter of Amos and Geraldine Sherald, taught who to worship, how to dress, how to act, what black is, what black a. You know what I mean? Like, it's it felt so limiting, and I really just to get down to, like, the bottom of who we were outside of this dominant cervical narrative that it's very easy I think, to only view yourself in a way that you're being viewed. Right? So, like, I wanted to become aware of myself by myself and of myself with my own gaze versus always being in a reactionary space of other people, you know? And part of that is just like having to go to all white schools and like constantly being put in a place where you have to perform and not really realizing that I was performing until I moved back home at 30 to help my mom like older women in our And part of that is just like having to go to to all white schools and like constantly being put in a place where you have to perform. And and not really realizing that I was performing until I moved back home at thirty to help my mom, like, older women in our family, and I was the one that didn't have a job. So, like, I moved back home to who to be a caregiver. And then I realized that you know, there's a lot of me that I, you know, I turn on and off in these moments where had I grown up somewhere else, I might not even be that way. You know, so the work for me was just about getting down to the bottom. How did you get down to the bottom? Was there therapy? Was it meditation? Was it just like, I'm not talking to people that I used to talk to, like, what was the like pragmatic way or was it literally just being like, I'm going to listen to myself Was it just, like, I'm not talking to people that I used talk to, like, what was the, like, pragmatic way? Or was it literally just being, like, I'm a listen to myself more? Yeah. It was about listening to myself more. It was about I think the first thing I think was, like, becoming an advocate of, like, the religious faith that I was brought up in, which is, like, a non denominational church. That we went to church on Saturday. We kept the Sabbath. I couldn't watch cartoons on Saturday morning. Like, so it was, like, lights out from Friday to Saturday. We celebrated like all these holy days, day of atonement, fasted, days of eleven bread, like, all that stuff. And learning how to think of my own. Right? Not being afraid to do that because for me, when it comes to religion, it's something I have to give up some of my own power in a way. And I didn't like the way that that felt. I didn't like that. My mom, you know, taught me that only Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John can have these revelations. Like, I wasn't smart enough to, like, have God's speak to me too. You know what I mean? So I have to, like, rely on this other person to tell me how to be in the world. Like, I don't think so. Especially not as a Virgo woman. I'm like, forget that. Like, oh my freaking freaking rising over here. Yeah. No. You can't I mean, it's just and it's just nonsensical. For Virgo, it's like the logic isn't here, but it's illogical. Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, I I think fortuit by fortuit, I was working my way through to this thing that I was really only given the language for two years ago when I came across a book by this writer named Kevin Quasi, and it's called the sovereignty of Quiet. And he talks about the black interior. And then Elizabeth Alexander's book is called the Black Interior, and it really speaks to our private identity versus the public identity And that's what the work is really about. And that's why it's to me, like, it's so important that, like, portraits are front facing that they're meeting the gaze of the viewer. And I want the images to be considered universal but I also understand that they can be employed in many different ways. You know, had a fear in the beginning of the work being marginal sizes. I didn't want the conversation solely to be about identity because it was something I was trying to free myself from. And I don't mean, like, free myself from my blackness, but free myself to become what I feel like constantly living in a reactionary space limits you from becoming. If you're in a relationship with somebody and you're constantly arguing, like, you lose touch with yourself. And I think, you know, the black juggle is real, and the five for civil rights is real, and the five for equality is real. And that times are almost felt guilty for just needing to separate myself from that so I could really get down to the nitty gritty of who I was. But, you know, Kevin talks about these different black female writers that wrote that way through the nineteen hundreds and that, you know, were on that same journey. So I felt affirmed in that. And I want the work to offer when you go into a museum space and see a painting by me. I want my work to offer that that up to the people that look like us. I'm glad I asked. I am glad I asked. You see, here's the thing, you know, because And and you're exceptionally good at this. And I I wonder, were you always this articulate about your work? Because think a lot of times as artists like, we know what's in our mind and we put it out there. And then when someone's like, so what is this? It's like, I mean, you know, it depends on who I'm talking to. And that's, like, the world of a introvert. Because, like, some people will meet me and be, like, she's amazing and some people like that take us off with it. So it's just, like, depends on the day and who it is, the energy, like, it's a wind blowing to the left. But it takes time. It takes being quiet and sitting and, you know, it takes being quiet and just reading and Were you in a relationship at the time? No. Uh-uh. I'm at the level of my life when I was forty three or forty four? I really think it's an important thing to know. Yeah. I'm glad because I I get less work done now. I'm like, can we break up for two months? Yeah. I I had the opportunity And it's hard for me to tell people this. You know, it's supposed to young female artists because I don't know if it's a hundred percent true or just know it's true for me. That's all I meant. It's like, I'm not sure I would be here. Had I got Wakada in a relationship. You know what I mean? Like, I'm forty eight. I don't have any kids. We're, like, trying to have kids now. We're, like, thinking about adoption and doing all this other stuff. Also, where somebody told me to freeze my eggs. But You know? You can have mine. I'm not gonna use them. That's super. I'm not sure I would be here. Like, this is something that you have to give a hundred and fifty percent you cannot be comfortable. You have to be comfortable with risk. And that goes for any that goes for acting, that goes for anything. It's like -- Mhmm. -- nothing get in the way of this. I didn't care whether people were like, what is Amy doing with her life? She's thirty six years old. She's waiting tables. I don't care. Like I knew exactly what I was Like, I knew exactly what I was doing. And so no no relationships. And he came at the right time. He came at the right time. Because that was too busy before it is. I mean, I see I see young people like I saw it like a meme the other day that was like, I'm twenty nine and I've never been in a relationship and I and, like, it was very it was very sad. Like and I was like, y'all got like like a twenty nine just feel I just run forty. Twenty nine feels like -- Yeah. I am pushing a baby stroller with a doll in it. Like, that's, like, a twenty nine really feels like, that was Barbie's legos. Right. It's like actually, no, but it just feels so far Right? It's, like, actually, no. But it just feels so far away and I I remember feeling that way and then around thirty four, moving to LA, and really just committing to, like, I don't think it is shit out. Like, If it didn't come around and didn't come around, then I gotta figure this shit out. And if it diverts me from figuring this shit out, then I gotta, like, divert from them. Yeah. So it's interesting to hear you speak on that because it is a decisive thing. And I think sometimes we don't wanna admit that to ourselves. And there is a dance that you're doing with time. Yeah. There really is. And I don't think it's a matter of like, but can't I just have it all? Can't we women have it all because there is that conversation too, like, why are you saying that there has to be one or the other? And I don't think I said there has to be one or the other, but there definitely has to be space. Yeah. And oftentimes, there just isn't. Yeah. You won't know until, you know, I have a friend who got married at twenty eight. She has three kids now. She just started pursuing her career, like, five years ago. The youngest girl is four, and she so she's she did it backwards. Mhmm. Did it. You know? But it's just how it works for me. I just know that I'm very, like, all in. So it's like I wasn't gonna be able to just be with somebody without it just taking all of my -- Yep. -- my castoring up behind me. Lando Well, I'll clean that up. I mean, it was just me at Lando for a for a long time. But I really feel like so much of just being an artist is identifying with yourself and learning you And that is what ends up coming out, like, in the Canvas or in yours music or in your writing. It's like, I feel more confident now as an artist than I ever have. Because I know myself better than I ever have. I think part of that was COVID, you know, and the quarantine of things and kind of just like being centered and silent longer than I've gotten the chance to be for like a very long time. And when you said, when you're arguing with people, how that, like, is, like, removing you or when you're reactionary, like, it's removing you. Like, that really hit me because there's also you having to take accountability for, like, your control -- Mhmm. -- in those scenarios. Like, how much are you contributing to you choosing to keep working with people to be reactionary and like sometimes it's a hard decision to excise yourself from these places. Even if it's just in the name of you, and sometimes maybe you don't wanna admit that it's stupid. It's like, you know, I have to do it for the arms. I have to do it for arms. It is hard. And then I I also realize that you're really in your work when you can go through a breakup and your ass can still get up and go do what you do. Say it. That's when you know, like, this is my shit. Like, I'm in it now. You know, waiting for inspiration and you break it with your boyfriend. You're like, I can't paint right now because I'm too upset. I'm like, you ain't there yet. You're not there yet. You're not taking this shit serious. That's real. That's real. Because listen, then you'd be living with somebody. So is the argument gonna, like, really, take you off? And I know Like, I I'm not there yet because the argument can take me out my bag. Yeah. And I have to, like, really, like, re center. With writing, it doesn't do that. But with visual art, if I am in any way disrupted. It's like, 0III can't. Again. But you said something in this conversation that when I tell you, like, I gotta really sit on this. I gotta, like, chat with answers about it and you were saying that you had to have a conversation with yourself about, like, if I'm sitting around a bunch of black artists, like, what's my identity in the conversation. Like, what am I bringing to the canon? And, you know, that's so just literal. Because it also but it also encourages you to, like, see what's out there. And I think sometimes folks are afraid to see what's out there. Heard hard to say, like, I don't wanna see other people's work because I don't wanna be influenced by other people's work. I'm like, I think it's good to go to an art fair, like the arm rate or like art Basel and you get to see what's happening all over the world at one time. Especially with young black artists that have been my students or, like, that have been mentors of I feel like it's hard for us to get ahead because we learn our history and then we make work inspired by that history. So I feel like every generation is gonna, like, make work about the on paper bag tests are like, you know what I mean? It's like of the crate challenge. You keep repeating and I'm like, learn your history, but then start from here, like figure out how you can speak to that without recycling the idea keep repeating and, like, learn your history, but then start from here. Like, figure out how you can speak to that without recycling the idea without being derivatives without being derivative in, like, so direct, you know? Because, like, that's been done before and it's been done brilliantly. So you have to figure out who you are inside of our history. Like, I mean, think that's why, like, Hindi Wiley's work is it was so smart and it really pushed figurative painting forward because our historians were able to look at his work and see our history in Mhmm. You know, it's it's it's just kind of brilliant. Like, this is really brilliant. The way that he incorporated European art history and then put in black bodies and Flip the whole the whole script. It flipped It was Hamilton before Hamilton. Reclaiming. He's, like, I'm reclaiming time. Like, that's my main focus on the American art canon and American stories. And that's, you know, that's what's really important to me is to represent those stories that were never told and then create my own, you know, at the same time. I met Herbie Hancock one time and he said to me that every human is an met Kirby Hancock one time and he said to me that every human is an artist I was like, what do you mean? He was like, because just surviving takes He was like, because just surviving takes creativity. And I mean, he was And, I mean, he was right. However, at a more basic level, every human that they're born to create doesn't necessarily take that to the artistic side of However, at a more basic level, every human that they're born to create doesn't necessarily take that to the artistic side of things. But with Skillshare, if that's something that's like bubbling beneath the surface, you can definitely crack the rock open and let that volcano of creativity and But with Skillshare, If that's something that's like bubbling beneath the surface, you can definitely crack the rock open and let that volcano of creativity and imagination erupt. Skillshare is basically an online learning community that offers membership with meaning with so much to explore real progress to create and support of fellow creatives. It empowers you to accomplish real It empowers you to accomplish real growth. Now, we've been interviewing a lot of different artists in different spaces, visual artists animated design, cetera. And so it's really like made me say to myself, like I really need to get back into my visual art of And so it's really like made me say to myself like I really need to get back into my visual art of things. So I decided to take the class illustration and action, creating stylized portraits by Andrea So I decided to take the class illustration and action creating stylized portraits by Andrea Pippins. Who's a designer and illustrator and I was already sold when the ads showed her next to a drawing of Angela Yvonne Davis that said I'm a revolutionary black woman with a big old Afro with a crown on a designer and illustrator. And I was already sold when the ads showed her next to a trying of Angela Yvonne Davis that said I'm a revolutionary black woman with a big old arrow with crown on it, it. And I was like, oh, this is the type of class I'm trying to and I was like, oh, this is the type of class I'm trying to take. If we're going to learn how to make things like this, I want to take If we're gonna learn how to make things like this, I wanna take it. And I really feel like when I do these types of classes, it only seems like an hour and 23 minutes when you take the And I really feel like when I do these types of classes, it only just like a hour in twenty three minutes when you take classes. But it really does just give you a little extra push and sometimes a major, extra push to really just step into another space of advancing your the but it really does just give you a little extra push and sometimes a major extra push to really just step into another space of advancing your creativity. And as adults, I just feel like we always have to keep being curious and all of us have to keep learning or else we just get as adults, I just feel like we always have to keep being curious and always have to keep learning or else we just get bored. We just get We just bland. We get basic and never We get basic and never die. We weren't put here to stand still and be in We weren't put here to standstill and be in stasis. So if you wanna get your go share on. I really feel like this is something that can be dope for all of you all. And I know that my listeners, many of you are creatives and we never, as a creative, you never stop advancing your And I know that my listeners, many of you are creatives, and we never as a creative. You never stop advancing your skills. So whether you're a dabbler or a pro, a hobbyist or a master, you're creative. Discover what you can make with classes for every skill level. Experience real improvement with hands on projects and classes designed for real life. It's also incredibly affordable especially when compared to pricey in person classes and workshops, like an annual subscription is less than ten dollars a month. So explore your creativity at skillshare dot com slash small doses and get a one month free trial of premium membership. That's super that's super dope. That's one month of a premium membership at skillshare.com/small doses, put that creativity to use and keep that imagination That's one month of a premium membership at dot com slash small doses, put that creativity to use and keep that imagination growing. We got to flex on it We got a flex on it, artistically. So I don't always have time to get my nails done, but then sometimes I like to have them done because I'm going to do a don't always have time to get my nails done, but then sometimes I like to have them done because I'm gonna do shoot. And in those situations it can be like, dang, like I can do this, but it might look bootleg a And in those situations, it can be like, dang. Like, I can do this, but it might look bootleg. now. However, I got this whole olive in June system and it's a whole different however, I got this whole olive and juice system, and it's a whole different situation. Okay. 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Don't blame you me. If you put in a few pounds, we got a new year's resolution coming up any way you want to work that right off in you put in a few pounds. We got a new year's resolution coming up anyway. You won't work that write off in January. So your titles be cracking me up because to me they're random, which is why we will address them in a your titles be cracking me up because to me, they're random, which is why we will address them in a second. But they remind me of YouTube video titles because, like, people only like, my my social media managers, I was like, y'all gotta make better YouTube titles. Like, people don't gonna just watch a video because you said this side effects any Sherald. Like, they're gonna be like, no. It needs to be like, every Sherald. Don't fuck with Usher. Like, it needs to have, like, It needs to have, like, pop and like, panache. And so I I wanna definitely talk about your titles. But before we talk about your art, because want you to take us through pieces, art as commerce is such a just sticky situation, I feel. And so I would love for you to just, like, talk to us about where it lives for you. And, like, how do you walk that line of, like, well, this is what the market wants. Because it really is a pressure once you have to live off your work to be aware of what is out there and what is creating you know, income. Yeah. Once you're making money off of what you do, it's no longer passion into a job, first of all. So it it it feels very different. I tried not to pay attention to the market. There's a lot of things happening now with black artists. There's almost like a frenzy around us, which is kinda creepy. It's just weird. And I'm waiting for the dust to settle to, like, see who's actually still gonna be there once it's all over. But the market it's weird because it's so in the art world, your market value based on like, who represents you as your gallery, you know, so if you have a small gallery and maybe they're only able to sell work from $6,000 to like $50,000, and then you have like the global galleries and people aren't buying work from those galleries until the market value is a million the market it's weird because it so in the art world, your market value based on, like, who represents you as your gallery. You know, so if you have a smaller gallery, then maybe they're only able to sell work from six thousand dollars to, like, fifty thousand dollars. And then you have, like, the global galleries and people aren't buying work from those galleries until the market value is a billion dollars. And, you know, so it's all kinda like smoking, mirrorish. You don't want to work to go to an auction, like, secondary market, like, you see, works going to Sotheby's and Philips because if the sales were too high, so say, for example, if a younger artist stole a lot of work when they were coming out. Mhmm. Also, they were famous. Mhmm. What are the collectors decides to take the work to auction? And other beats projects that the sales are gonna be, like, fifty to hundred thousand for that one work. And then it ends up selling for eight hundred thousand. So then you have to try to figure out how to mine that gap. Between what your market value is and what that piece sold for because you can't just increase your market value to eight hundred thousand dollars because you might not be able to sustain, you know, collectors may not wanna buy your work at that price. And you can't go backwards. You can only go You can only go forward. So it's like so many there's so many things to think about. And, like, the one one thing that I did do and beginning my career was was very careful about who I sold my work to and who I placed it with. Because had I not been, I would be screwed right now. So, like, I saved that purchase to work for, like, less than thousand dollars. The work now is worth a whole lot of money. I don't like to talk about my prices in public, but you know, some collectors buy the flip, so they buy your work and they flip I don't like to talk about my prices in public, but, you know, some collectors buy the flip. They buy your work and they flip it. It's a hustle. Like, they flipping you like houses. And so it's just really important to make sure that you're selling to the right collectors that their collectors that are committed to you and what you do, that when they do resell, they'll take it back through the gallery and they're not gonna go to Sotheby's because they think they can make more money. And I think, you know, there's a lot of black artists like whose works are going up right now in the auctions because it's the fad. Yeah. Of our popularity, I'm not gonna say at the moment, but amongst them. Right. No. It's not a trend for them. So it's like, let's do this right now. You see, like, that's all. This starting out, like people don't realize that like, in all of our history, from cavemen to present lack artists weren't even shown in real spaces until like the 1930s and starting out. Like, People don't realize that like in all of our history from cavemen to present, black artists weren't even shown in real spaces until like the nineteen thirties and forties. Like, not in a really Like, when We talk about Monet and claimed at all these people like black artists were not their contemporaries in terms of the commercial we talk about Monet and ClimT and all these people, like, black artists were not their contemporaries in terms of the commercial space. Nope. It was like in was, like, in Chicago. And I think in Baltimore, in like 1938 or something like that, like Romero, Bearden and Jacob Lawrence, they were giving it at the Baltimore museum and like one institution in I think in Baltimore in, like, nineteen thirty eight or something like that, like, Romeo Bear Den and Jacob Bar. They were Yep. And at the Baltimore Museum and, like, one institution in Chicago. Other than that, they weren't showing at the YMCA. Nobody was paying attention, you know, the value just wasn't there. And now know, in hindsight, these older black artists that are finally getting their do. Face wrinkle. Yeah. Literally dying like five years later, you know, because they're in their seventies and eighties. It's insane. I think it's really dope. Congratulations that the Breonna Taylor Portrait piece that you did is now in the African American History Museum. And when you did that piece, I mean, I I'm not gonna ask you, like, what need to do that piece? Obviously, that's obvious. When you do a piece though, how do you decide pieces that you keep for you and pieces that you give to the world? Or is there a distinction? Yeah. I mean, I just from my last show in LA, I just kept my first piece because I could, like, actually afford to do it. In the beginning. I was like, I literally had sell I was like, I literally had to sell everything. It's like, I had to pay more bills, you know. Which piece did you keep? Hope is the thing with feathers. Is it in metal? Not burgundy, but she's got the burnt orange dress on. No. No. No. That's that's that's from a show at I was signing this one. Okay. In Saint Louis, Luca. Yes. What made you keep that piece? Come think about it. don't know. Like I just really like Like, I just really like it. I don't know some pieces you don't want to part with I'm don't know, some pieces you don't wanna part with. I'm okay with all of them, but, like, also keeping your work as an artist is, like, in your retirement plan as well. So you wait till your price go up, and then you can sell. I'm like, right. So yeah. I just just my connection to them, like, I really like that one. It was really simple. I only have four colors in the whole painting, and I just really loved it. And then with Brianna, obviously, that's not a painting that can be sold. Right? So, like, I can only imagine, like, if if I had, like, double that painting to the moment or something, like, she doesn't belong to the moment. Right. And so I had to make a decision about what I wanted to do with it. And for me, it was important that it go to to her hometown of Louisville. So conversation started with a speed museum, and then we brought in a black curator and then promised witness remembrance was the child born from all of that. And so her portrait being the key focus and the exhibition being about gun violence in general. So the black Sony and I called the black Sony. And they both own the painting, so it was coacquired. Okay. And I'm donating the money to an institution in Louisville for scholarships and fellowships. For students that are interested in those you could be a You can be an AI. right? You can be at anything, but, You can be anything, but science, but they'll have scholarships throughout their four year, undergraduate degree, and for law students that wanna work in public interest to say like a Brian Stevens and, you know, he went to Alabama and did that work for free. He will be able to get a Brianna Taylor legacy fellowship to do that work so you can do it and still pay a sprint at the same time. Do y'all hear that? Don't. That's what moving forward, but reaching back is. That's what that is. Well, we have a segment on the show called TheScript where we ask our guests to basically kind of provide our listeners with some supplementary materials to support the conversation. So like, are there mean, you you did mention some books earlier in the show, but is there any books or artists or films or movies that you feel like folks should check out that would bring them close to the Amy Sherald world on Canvas. One of my favorite documentaries is by photographer and filmmaker Deborah Willis, and it's called Drew a lens darkly. Thailand started watching on Amazon Prime, but it's about the history of photography and us. Right. You know, the invention of the camera and representation. And I I taught art in Baltimore City Jail and I Sherald this film with the guys there. And it just like blew your minds. Because you really understand that if it wasn't for the invention of the camera, that you also understand the importance photography And, you know, you can really understand why I heard your Douglas was, like, so into being photographed and, like, why that was so important because he realized that representation really like, images change the way people think. Right. Media. Yeah. Media. Through a lens, darkly. Alright. Alright. So I'm starting a new segment with my artists where I will show you a piece of your work and I would love for you to just talk us through that piece. And since I have been so fortunate to be one of the people that you feel comfortable talking to, I'm very excited to do this. And so we're gonna do a few pieces. Okay. So this is the first piece. You mean, right here. I call him Black Garth Brooks. Garth Brooks. But you call him what's precious inside of him does not care to be known by the mind in ways that diminish its presence, in parentheses, All American, twenty seventeen. So before we even get into him, please explain to me the titles because usually people's titles is like, black man with hat. And you're giving us poetry with the pieces. Yeah. You know, if it started with poetry, it's part it with a poet, and the guy was partnered with by the school community of, like, a long time ago that I had to make a painting, poet wrote a poem. And in that poem, she had a line that was well prepared and molodested. And I ended up naming my painting after that line because it really fit. And after that, I felt like it was just a really interesting way to tell a story and speak to the work without instructing the viewer, like, what to think. You know? Mhmm. That I love that piece so much. It's one of my favorite favorite paintings, but I think it starts with the moment when I was studying with this artist in Norway and his name is odd Nurgen. And I'm probably the only black person that's ever studied with him in the history of, like, he's, like, the modern day RIN brand. But but how did you, like, find him? Is it because it because when you said that, it made me think of, like, kill bill and her going to study with Jaime. She was, like, the only white woman that had ever gotten the chance to, like, study with Jaime and get a hachai functional sword. So, like, what made you go study with this Norwegian master? I found this book in the library at Maryland Institute College of Art where I was going to school and something about it. I don't know. Like, it it definitely wasn't the images because palette is, like, very Norwegian. It's, like, grays and, like, you know, very cloudy days -- Right. -- versus, like, you know, I call it Caribbean palette. Yes. It was something about his work. I have no idea. Like, I sought him out and it just so happened he came to speak at the school And I was introduced to him. And he's like, what are you doing after school? And I said, I wanna come up with you. And he said, okay. Cool. Talk to my wife. And I'm like, cool. Cool. Cucky my wife. I don't want you to meet. I don't want you to meet. This is all that. And then somebody asked me if I could give a ride to the train station and I said, yes, but didn't have a car. But, like, I really wanted to, like, that time. So that, like, I was, like, run around some fun to my little bar parts, so that happened. And I ended up going there and it's like changed my life. But you see, need to I need everybody listen. Now you see, that was innovation. It was, like, you could have just easily been, like, a home car or whatever. And that would have just been bad. And let me tell you, car rides I have read are, like, very good spaces for connection by nature of the fact that you're basically in a movie you're in a spaceship. Is this y'all? It's just us. Right? But okay. I got sidetracked again. So I went over there and you know, a lot of people were anti American at that time because we had started the war that we just ended. And George Bush time Yeah. George Bush time, and people saw me as an American trippy. Not like it. Interesting. Because I felt like I had only been seen by my race and I'd never really like in Georgia, American flags don't make you feel warm and fuzzy. Like, they just mean that you might be in a threatening situation and it's weird because it's just the American flag. It doesn't even have to be the confederate flag and I still feel that way about it. So I was like, wow. They called me an American. Like this is, I am an American, you know, like I really am an American, like I need to embrace Like, this is I am an American. You know? I really am an American. Like, I need to embrace that. I don't need to push it off because in doing so, I'm like, did you speak to the ancestors? Like, it's really important that For me, it was really important that I started to reclaim that and that was the first thing that I did was, like, to make this painting because I mean, I don't know about you, but every time I hear somebody talk about our forefathers, I'm like, they wouldn't be who they were without the ancestors doing the work. You know, like, without enslaved people doing the work. So you you you gotta tell the whole story. And the blood on that flag is our blood. You know? So that's I I feel very strongly about that. So I'm not letting those crazies just be the ones that are controlled playing. Interact with something that was birthed from people that came over here and received nothing. And somehow managed to create everything. Right. Right. That's the fascinating part. You know, the godliness of black folks in the ability to make something of nothing. Over and over and over and over again. You know? So this next piece, I love a hound's tooth. A clear, unspoken, granted magic, and all of these pieces by the way are from an exhibit that Amy did in Saint Louis And this is a book that my mom got me because my mom buys me art books. That's like her thing. And I really love I just what I love about the women's faces and your pieces, like, their faces are always kinda like but it's not stank as much as it's just like, You see it? Yeah. Yeah. It says It's too intentional. It's kinda intentional. Yeah. I mean, going back to Deborah Willis, like, I guess, more reading materials. She also published a book called the History of the Black Female Body. And I came across that Booking Graduate School and it really informed my perspective on us. And all those images were taken inside profile. And, again, why I like the front facing gaze because it's like a soft confrontation and of recognition. Some portraits, you might see them and they're passive. So, like, the viewer and the model or the subject are not interacting at all. You're just there to look at the subject. But in my are there to be present with you and to have a conversation about whatever it is that you wanna talk about. Right? They're present. They know their work They're working. Me. The Michelle portrait is she's she's bas she's leaning on her knee, like, talk talk to me. What y'all got to say? Like, that's her part her pose even speaks to, like, as if she's conversing with the viewer or listening intently, like, you know, what are y'all what's y'all thinking? Yeah. Would you say that because I'm trying to give listeners, like, a point of reference. So would, like, Would the Mona Lisa be a passive person? She's pretty, like, coming at you. Right? Those You know, where the subject might be looking away or they might be appearing out of a window or they might be peering past know, where the the subject might be looking away, or they might be peering out of a window, or they might be peering past you, like, the girl that needs to be hearing? Yeah. Yeah. Paint a veil. What is it? I can tell you every Nas record from ilmenic to ilmenic. The painting titles, I'm like, you know, the one with the you know, she got the blue, you know, and and and there's a they made a movie about, you know, with the pearl. The pearl there. They had to go with the brain. Like, That's always so then when I get to your titles, I'm just like Oh, she made it very difficult for me. I love your own titles sometimes. I was like, I'm glad you told me what that one was, so that was about to be like, what's the name it? So this is our last piece. And I love this piece because I'm I grew up in Orlando, Florida. And it used to really be a thing to go and see the space shuttle go up. I mean, that was like a thing. And then my mom would always make a big thing of, men's, this shuttle going up. This shuttle going up and everyone goes outside. And you watch the shuttle go up and you wait for the sonic boom, and it was a whole thing. And this piece is called planes, rockets, and the spaces in between two thousand eighteen. And so would love to hear more about like what inspired this piece and why the little boy is looking at the rocket the young woman is looking at us. It's two girls. Everybody think that's a little boy, but she has a little denim skirt. It looks like a boy with a high booty. I know. I get Trevor Noah booty. Yeah. Okay. It's two girls. You know what? We didn't even get that close, but you're right. She does have other denim skirt. You know, because see a body and we like, oh, it must be a boy even though black women have been rockin bodies from the beginning of time. Yeah. So why is one looking at this one is looking like, I just need to understand this space. I need to understand the whole I need to understand the whole thing because I love this piece. If I could afford it, I would buy this piece if it was available. I really at that point, I think I started to shift my focus because that was one of the first larger paintings that I have done. So up until that point, they had been, like, the the individual portraits, they're fifty four inches by forty three inches. And I wanted to focus on a, like, an iconic American moment and something that represented American power. They am a hundred by sixty seven inches. Alright. Pretty tall. I I see this scaffold behind you. So I was like, oh, that's what that's so I was like, oh, that's what that's about. Got it. Yeah. That's the fun part. So that was the beginning of of that. So so since then, I've made images that come from iconic American photographs like I've recreated them. But that one was me recreating my own. And still at that point, I wasn't comfortable with having both of them facing rocket ship. Like, I needed wanted them to acknowledge the presence of the viewer and make them either feel like they're not welcome or that they're welcome or that they're interrupting something. Right. But I think I contact for me, like, really it brings a soul to the work that I think is really important, you know. Not that I don't think, like, abstract work is important because I think, like, probably, some of that hardest painting that you can do the most intuitive kind of painting practice that you have. But I think figurative painting is like the sole food of art. Like, no matter how high brow it gets or how conceptual it is, where you're just, like, why is this banana taped to the wall? Like, what's the dating behind? Bigative work for me is, like, the soul food of, like, visual language. And so I think for me, that's why our contact is really important because it connects you to the human in the painting and it connects you to your own humanity at the same so think for me, that's why our contact is really important because it connects you to the human in the painting and and connects you to your own humanity at the same time. I see. I do I do abstract. I feel like it's straddles. Like, I I can do portraits, but it's not like my favorite thing. But I love eyes, eyes and lips. Like, are my favorite things to to put on canvas, eyes and lips? Well, my last question is, you know, when you're painting, do you paint multiple pieces at a time? Do focus on one? Is it a at this point, now that you are the Amy Sherald do you find that there's a pressure to be more prolific? How do you keep up with the grandeur of what you have created with your brilliance? Well, I am a slow painter, so I will never make more than ten to twelve paintings a year. SAFER to say ten paintings year. It allows me to stay connected to the work and to, like, enjoy what I'm doing. And painting is like only I mean, there's so much that goes into making a piece before you start making the piece. And that's, like, finding what the model's gonna wear. I mean, it takes time. Sometimes I might find like, I had I had to dress for two years before I found the right model for it, and then that painting is able to come to life. How do you know it's the right model when you find them? It's like it's it's all intuitive. Like, it's really no word. It's like how you recognize yourself and somebody, like, or Yeah. Like, when you see people you you meet your boyfriend or your husband or your girlfriend, he's like, something about that person. And I guess they're they're they do have qualities that I call, like, they're they're damp, which means, like, like, their souls feel a little weighted, but in a good way. You know? Yeah. Because I have approached people and then, like, talk to them and I've been, like, they feel like they've only been here once. There's something to a live soul versus like a brand new school. Yes. Necessary for that energy exchange that happens between the painter and the model that allows the painting to feel so real even though it's not painted, like, hyper realism. You know, it's like -- Right. -- one good example of that is Alice Neil's portraits. If you've ever seen her work, She's a very stylized painter, but her painting's still alive. Mm Yep. Have to be rendered to, like, look like real life, like, the soul of the work is there. And that's I think that's, like, something that happens between the subject than the and the painter that think is pretty magical. Because once you I could show you a painting that doesn't have it and a painting that does. It could be a landscape, and you could see the difference. So some people have this magic touch and some people don't. It's hard to explain. But after if if you can't You're explaining explaining it. No, I, I definitely, it's the reason why some surfers get more dollars than others, you know, it's, it's, it's a No. I I definitely it's the reason why some shippers get more dollars than others. You know, it's it's a thing. It's a it's a spark. You might call it charisma. You might call it being tapped in. You know, but some folks just got that thing about them that resonates beyond just the surface. And then when you know that about yourself and you see it in another person, it's it's kind of like It's a touchstone, you know, and it's a ET phone home type moment. Like, oh, okay. I see you. We both got from here. Got it. Okay. To me, that's what the feeling is when you're like, oh, so we both the ship is gonna take both of us. Okay. Because I feel like when I meet you, I'm like, oh, you're from here. So we're different. Mhmm. Yeah. Some some of us aren't from here, and some of us are from here. And it's really just don't to get to speak to another alien. And I am so honored that you were be willing to give us your time and to talk to us. Just so in-depth about your process and about your work and your super cool us just so in-depth about your process and about your work and you're like super cool aims. I don't know if you noticed the, like, you got you got a swag about you. Okay. Like, you got definitely a swag. I feel like you was definitely in, like, You as an extra in there around the weird girl video. Like, that's the energy you're giving. So That's a compliment. So receive it. The last dose. So you do have the portraits tour going on. So can you please let people know how they can get an opportunity to view your work live in full effect? It will be I just know after November sixth, you'll be able to see it in LA at Los Angeles, kinda be seen before. And check the website for the dates. And then it's going to Atlanta, and it might be going to Houston, but I'm not sure. So do you come with the peace? Like, do you like, is it like a package deal? Like, we didn't see the peace and Amy? Not all the time. In LA, Hindi and are are being honored at the film plus art gala that they they have every year along with Steven Spielberg. So that's why we're coming out for that. Okay. Light company. Cool. Yeah. Just, you know, MD. But I didn't go to the Chicago opening, but I might go to Atlanta opening office because I'm from Georgia. Oh, yeah. I think you gotta do that just this is a big middle finger. Like, the petty in me is like, yeah, motherfuckers or you can come with a a lighter soul and be like, I'm here to share with my community. Either way, I feel like it's the right choice. Well, thank you so much, and we will continue support your work. And I can't wait to meet you in person. I can't wait to see your work in person. And and thank you for being the first artist in our small doses artist series. Starbucks. A podcast The podcast podcast network.