0:00

Welcome back to dealing together for a

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scholar about. Three sweaters to get the for. it's free!

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Oh, you got fleeced Next caller I. Traded

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we get into this week's episode of

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Small Doses Hi Cask One, it lets

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you know that there is no bonus

0:37

episode of the podcast this week. Why?

0:39

Cause your girl is taking a mental

0:41

health pay He? yeah I know I

0:43

can't even believe that I'm doing it,

0:45

but your girl is doing here. So

0:47

this week of off line I'm not

0:49

doing anything extra that I don't gotta

0:51

do. And it's not that I don't

0:53

gotta do the bonus episodes but I

0:55

mean isn't bonus for a reason so

0:57

I'm sure you are understand and I

0:59

truly appreciate. It if you don't maybe

1:01

one day you will actually be You

1:03

won't understand because you won't need seat

1:05

mental health break but Babe B is

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necessary for you grow so my knowledge

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my know that also one remind you

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that you should go to A mean

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the Seals that com A sign up

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com and get your tickets and remember

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we're gonna need to go Grassroots yards.

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They are shallow banning me echo Chamber in

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me. I mean they do in all things

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me on Instagram and so I'm relying on

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you are to spread the word amongst your

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folks. Old school style. Hear it through the

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grapevine. tell your friends and branch a charge.

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At the club or as a one of the globe. Tell

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your friends and your group chat spread the where

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would you see my post Because really this turns

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up a chick move in but they can stop

1:53

it When I got the people as Ossie Davis

1:55

once told me to my face. Narrow.

1:57

Sick and I got deeper Than your feet are rooted in the people.

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My feet are firmly planted. And

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I know y'all got my back so make. Sure

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have a newsletter so you can make sure that

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a patron. Check it out. Or right?

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let's get this episode as smart as

2:55

such as with yours truly may. As

3:13

here. I

3:22

did not know and so was it last week.

3:25

Or two weeks ago, you posted. That you

3:27

and David Jones were friends skill with gonna

3:29

be together? I I had no idea and

3:31

I saw you hop up on. Him and

3:33

and like of course there for

3:35

hims cause good people, faggot people,

3:38

Give. Everybody knows, maybe Danza. It was about

3:40

like that. maybe less a unique and well as

3:42

his name on the on Friday that he was

3:44

a. Good people. And

3:48

the Birmingham Alabama Me Dead. Let me.

3:50

How many people get people? Yes,

3:53

Oh yes, my phone home like

3:56

everybody who knows me knows I'm

3:58

from Birmingham, which as. Bring

4:00

it up of it's at because I feel like. Black.

4:03

folks. That. plagues, I

4:06

tell people. The. The best

4:08

way to describe this is I did

4:10

not grow up with whiteness as an

4:12

aspiration at all. slather childless. That's about

4:14

the he grew up like outside of

4:17

Baton Rouge. Maybe I mean he's like

4:19

I'd never had like whiteness as a

4:21

beacon. Know I grew an all black

4:23

people. yes the dumbest planetary lawyer, the

4:25

polymer sins, but yeah my legs I

4:27

had. So when people have the story

4:30

in that I didn't realize how soaring

4:32

or rear that was and so like

4:34

I go to college and I'm around

4:36

a whole was. Black people who are used

4:38

to be an only smart black person and

4:40

I'm like oh I was in gifted classes

4:42

with like people my A P Chemistry teacher

4:44

with a black man like you know. Her

4:46

as a very different way of being but

4:49

it also impacts the work that we do

4:51

a search with. has. So many people have

4:53

been sold. They have to leave aspects

4:55

of who they are behind. In order

4:57

to be respected, promoted, or whatever.

4:59

It is like know, that's bullshit They want. You to

5:02

leave your power. So the bike as as

5:04

started out said this. Is

5:07

that right? There is a great

5:09

way to jump off because city

5:11

on his best on a norms

5:13

is not. And then you have

5:15

educators who didn't live that norm

5:17

and so they are also going

5:19

into the education system already. Drained

5:22

before they get their. Absolutely.

5:24

and they're feeling like they have to

5:26

show up in a certain way. I

5:28

have said said aspects of who I

5:31

am and usually those aspects are the

5:33

things that make you uniquely qualified to

5:35

connect with young people and their families

5:38

and see their beauty. Their assets by

5:40

it limits was your idea? We gonna

5:42

run a bag brokerages? I didn't realize

5:44

is that so into the conversations that

5:47

any less I know I am with

5:49

time is a summer. Okay, sleep better

5:51

At the Surge Institutes The Surge Institute

5:53

I learned. About when I was really

5:55

given a great opportunity to come and

5:58

speak at your is it an annual?

6:00

It is by the and you okay

6:02

spy annual I'm I'm I'm like convening.

6:04

Okay shield it in that number two

6:06

hundred fifty people yes you did that.

6:08

Yeah diseases last may have a laugh

6:10

at it. You know it was. Really

6:12

does this to be in a space

6:14

of educators because I really like that

6:16

is one of my passions is like

6:18

always platforming education educators. I like every

6:20

other smart black person knows that's agitation

6:23

is the key deliberation and you that

6:25

balding on your hearing. So we are

6:27

you now except where you at way

6:29

and I find. There's like these pockets of

6:31

dope Nyssa only find out about simply because like

6:33

I'm he gets asked to speak as a van.

6:35

or you know sometimes the people the like all

6:37

you can eat from of the things and I

6:39

just. Will you all

6:41

do in terms of lifting up

6:44

Black Brown and and Is as

6:46

educators and taking their already leadership

6:48

instincts? yeah and enhancing it's creating

6:50

momentum behind it and really pushing

6:53

it forward is a thing that

6:55

I think a lot of people

6:57

don't. Realize needed to be

6:59

done. Absolutely. And I mean so.

7:01

First while I wanna say don't miss attractiveness of

7:04

the reason the you find out about stuff like

7:06

sizes as you know s. So

7:08

specifically when I

7:10

found. It serves. So we're talking

7:13

like twenty twelve twenty eleven Am Shop

7:15

in this idea around. And at

7:17

that time I was saying look, we can't keep

7:19

talking about education as a civil. Rights issue

7:21

of our time without acknowledging that the

7:23

people leading this movement or not the

7:25

people who are suffering me and justice

7:28

for a while everybody my be B

7:30

O super woke now. And twenty

7:32

twelve when I was same as I

7:34

was called the reverse racism Oh yes

7:37

ma'am. Success by. Fast

7:40

forward here we are: Twenty twenty three.

7:42

Summonses they base my said it

7:44

to you Oh yes yes so.

7:46

Let me tell you oh we would

7:48

this would need a whole pot guess

7:50

the south about sounding. An organization that

7:53

is investing in our people wearing

7:55

this skin and being unapologetic about

7:57

what it means To and I

7:59

think you said is right. We

8:01

always say we don't groom leadership.

8:03

We. We invest And people

8:05

who are already brilliant. Yeah, like

8:07

we invest in the genius and

8:09

brilliance that already exists within our

8:11

community. Now what we're trying to

8:13

do is provide additional opportunity. Skill

8:15

set Elevate amplify that were helping.

8:18

People connect with people across the sector

8:20

that they might not have ever met.

8:22

In ways that we

8:24

hope catalyzes collective action

8:26

and great. Outcomes and opportunities

8:29

for our young people and

8:31

families by. That was just over

8:33

ten years ago. not as super you

8:35

know accepted thing to say. People

8:37

said yes they fix their mouth to

8:40

say you're reverse racists They were also

8:42

like this is a really great

8:44

idea on how about you go work

8:46

for sale in the blank to build

8:49

this out Now still in the

8:51

blank I don't have to tell you

8:53

who that always was run by the

8:55

most. Yeah yeah yeah yeah because

8:57

you those a your idea to these

9:00

lies he bo. And go

9:02

under their leadership. Yes!

9:04

The irony of that? like I think

9:06

it was lost on people when they suggested

9:09

that's by Here's. The deal with people

9:11

I lost in general. Like I just

9:13

said i'm not really realize and like

9:15

yo really don't understand what races like

9:17

I really don't understand like the immensity

9:20

like how his fits into. Everything.

9:22

We're doing like it's must be.

9:27

Even. And here's the thing. The beautiful

9:29

thing about our people is and I

9:31

think that the more proximate say this

9:34

Alexander more proximate You are to an

9:36

issue Like you are going to see

9:38

things that other people just don't recognize

9:40

the out has. they're not. They're so

9:43

when you're trying to solve a problem

9:45

that people don't even recognize. Exists.

9:48

On the one hand, you've gotta

9:50

uphill battle. To get people to understand

9:52

why it's importance on the other hand and

9:54

I'm you know I'm always the person that's

9:57

also them to talk about the opportunities as

9:59

provides. You can feel it like

10:01

people had such. Depressed expectations of

10:03

what thirds could be soon.

10:06

as they didn't understand the demand.

10:08

That already existed within our community

10:10

at Sell Folks particularly folks of

10:12

color who are starting non profit

10:15

organizations. Every one of

10:17

the first investment sex that. We

10:19

received from large education funders

10:21

for thirds with a one

10:23

year. Investments they're like oh I

10:25

call them uses sex they were

10:28

let's okay he i like it's

10:30

really handy goddamn better actually what

10:32

it is getting. Had an exile

10:34

paid off he goes me the

10:37

colonists idea. Gm says I'm really

10:39

benefit from a ham Alabama and

10:41

every single one of those investments

10:44

turned in some multi year in

10:46

many cases multimillion dollar investment. But

10:48

why? In part Because our people

10:51

showed up. Even before

10:53

we had a name I didn't

10:55

have a brand. I have anything.

10:57

All I did and started in

10:59

Chicago. This is say. We are

11:01

seeking educators, people working in the

11:03

field of education and who are

11:05

folks of color who. Know that

11:07

they actually want to have an

11:10

outsize impact for our people to

11:12

her, but don't have places that

11:14

are pouring into them. Okay, and

11:16

with just that know brand? barely

11:18

a website, all of this sort

11:20

of south word of mouth. we

11:22

had like ten people for every

11:24

one slot that we had a

11:26

was wrong and then just based

11:29

on that first cohort experience you

11:31

had people who came out of

11:33

that saying this experience is transcendence

11:35

use actually changed how I see

11:37

myself. And that allows me

11:39

to change how I operate in

11:41

this space. So for us, this

11:43

isn't just about leadership development. We

11:45

talk about it as leadership excel

11:47

or a sense. Because what we're

11:49

doing his head, heart and spirit

11:51

work. So tell me a bit

11:53

about your past in terms of how

11:56

that allows you to know what you

11:58

need to pour into. Some. Right?

12:00

Because like you said like your proximity

12:02

to something is gonna be able says

12:04

inform your ability to identify like was

12:07

amazing, what is needed and so like

12:09

tell me about like how you got

12:11

to this point because when people are

12:13

saying that I've had since Transcendence is

12:15

that like the Ram I've of? Yeah

12:17

So I'll start. With. Birmingham.

12:20

And. You don't grow

12:22

up in a place like Birmingham

12:25

as a little black girl with

12:27

our innately understanding your brilliance. And

12:29

you're a genius. Because you see

12:31

it in every one either. Tell you.

12:34

I don't think that's that's like a

12:36

normal attribute that people apply to Birmingham.

12:38

Don't know what our Birmingham which has

12:40

most people when they see Birmingham, they

12:42

think of grainy black and white photos

12:45

and book hundred dollars and all those

12:47

years rights which is also true lay

12:49

the trauma of all of that is

12:51

very true. but what people don't understand.

12:54

On the other side of that is

12:56

what came out of that was this

12:58

heroism and this like old audacious black.

13:00

Leader said that was like we're

13:02

here and I think I am.

13:05

I'm a generation removed and the

13:07

seventies baby Right though I was

13:09

a generation that was then being.

13:11

Raised by these folks who walked

13:13

with that boldness and that audacity.

13:16

So I you know, Gribben

13:18

a very black plays by.

13:20

I was also in gifted

13:22

and talented classes and all

13:24

these other than with the

13:26

things that people often associates

13:28

with being white dominated spaces.

13:30

but that wasn't my experience.

13:32

so I read. Autobiography.

13:35

Of mathematics and my gifted ninth grade

13:37

English. Class that was being shot by

13:39

a white man in Birmingham, Alabama Like

13:41

that was just my realities. So like

13:43

either. I feel it's a lot of

13:45

our black community ad hoc is like.

13:48

Really wooed by money. And

13:51

by the access. to whiteness in

13:53

a way that undermines our connectivity to

13:55

each other right slick i'll never recover

13:57

from the fact that like the entire

13:59

nfl didn't kneel with Colin Kaepernick. Like

14:01

I'll just never recover from that. Cause

14:03

it was like, this is so obviously,

14:05

like y'all have the power. Like

14:07

all of it here. So it's like odd

14:09

to me, but I know that it was

14:11

because it's like, well, no, because if I

14:13

do that, I might lose my opportunities. But

14:15

what you're describing in Birmingham, it's

14:18

like culturally, what is it

14:20

about Birmingham that you feel like made

14:22

folks be like, we need each other

14:24

in order to have

14:26

strength? Because I think that's not necessarily the

14:28

case and all about, absolutely. Well,

14:31

if you, so I want to say two things.

14:33

One is, and this

14:36

could be a whole other podcast. Now what

14:38

I was very keenly aware of was

14:40

being poor in Birmingham. So class

14:43

was something I was very aware

14:45

of. Okay. Now I was the kid

14:47

who grew up in the projects. Me and my mom

14:49

were homeless for a bit, like da da da

14:51

da da da, all that stuff. But I was

14:54

also an amazing student. I did school well. And

14:56

so, just a

14:58

little slack. But to be clear, I had the

15:00

kind of black mama who was like, I'm sending

15:02

you there for your schooling, not your

15:04

education. So at home I was

15:06

reading Mansa Musa. I was reading James

15:08

Baldwin. Like that was my,

15:11

so I just, I want to say

15:13

that I don't want

15:15

to paint it as some like utopia

15:17

that didn't have, like let's be real.

15:20

But I think there was something, and if

15:22

my auntie was sitting here on this sofa,

15:24

she would say that in many

15:26

ways, segregation was the best thing that happened to

15:29

black folks in Birmingham. Okay, so that's what I

15:31

was gonna get at, but I didn't even say

15:33

explicitly, but like, okay. So literally, literally, like

15:35

someone was asking me the other day, Amanda,

15:37

like, what do you think it would take

15:39

for black people to support each other again?

15:42

And I'm like, we'd have to be forced

15:44

to. That's what I think

15:46

it would unfortunately, sadly take. It would

15:48

require us being forced to

15:50

have to lean on each other in

15:52

order for us to see each other again. And

15:55

here you go auntie. Oh, auntie Bunny, she has

15:57

said it many times. Now it's caused arguments in

16:00

the. folks are like, of

16:02

all the things, we think that's the

16:04

best thing that happened to us, segregation.

16:06

But- I know what she means though.

16:08

It was effectively like, because

16:10

we all lived in one neighborhood, we

16:12

all went to the same church at

16:14

schools. Like you had the doctors and

16:16

the lawyers. It was a facto community.

16:19

Yeah, absolutely. And so while that was

16:21

not my experience, like I did, you

16:23

know, I grew up again, a generation

16:25

removed. So people who had means has

16:28

started to move to different

16:30

places and all that sort of stuff. That

16:32

mindset and that mentality was

16:34

something that was absolutely poured into me.

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Must be 21 or older to order alcohol.

18:00

The glee alcohol available only

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in select markets. Welcome back

18:04

to Dealing Together. First caller? I

18:06

bought three sweaters to get the fourth free. Oh, you got

18:08

fleeced. Next caller? I traded my

18:10

old Samsung at AT&T for a new Samsung Galaxy

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S24 Plus and chose my plan. That's not

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on us with eligible trade-in. AT&T. Connecting

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changes everything. Offers vary by device. Subject to

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change. S24 plus 256 gigabyte offer

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available for a limited time. Terms and restrictions apply.

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See AT&T.com/Samsung for details. And

18:35

so when you then went into the

18:38

professional. World? Yeah that that.

18:41

Has now my life and

18:44

he let me tell you

18:46

I okay let's agree negro

18:48

Well okay. So I pad

18:50

mini great fortunes. What I will

18:53

say as I started my career

18:55

as a chemical engineer. I

18:57

worked for Proctor and Gamble, but

18:59

I worked in Albany, Ga are

19:01

all benny as they would call.

19:03

bandage allows any Georgia so. I

19:06

worked with a ton of black engineers

19:08

like they were actually very. Intentional. I

19:10

am recruiting from H B

19:13

C use and local so

19:15

I had a community of

19:17

folks who were my people.

19:20

And I also had leadership that allowed

19:22

me so I was a chemical engineer

19:24

but education and always. Been a my

19:27

heart because frankly as a case with

19:29

my pathway out of poverty snow so

19:31

I started looking for opportunities to violence

19:34

here in the community. Partnered. With this

19:36

local high school to actually support their

19:38

students in math and science to get

19:40

them ready for their graduation exams season

19:42

I was able to get other black

19:45

engineers to join in and that effort

19:47

my So what I'm saying to is

19:49

like this always been who I am.

19:51

I'd been decided that I was eventually

19:53

going to Pivot Ensue education and in

19:55

non profit cause at him. With the

19:58

thing that I felt like with. my

20:00

calling to be the thing that I did on

20:02

the weekends and that sort of thing. But

20:05

before I made that transition, I

20:08

will tell you a very

20:10

specific instance of when they

20:13

realize I was perhaps a little too black

20:16

for them in the space because I didn't

20:18

know. Who's they? They, I won't name this

20:20

company. No, I'm just saying, is this a

20:22

chemical engineering? Yeah, this is a company that

20:24

I worked for before I made the transition

20:26

into education. While

20:29

I was at a big seminar

20:31

kind of thing, I'm the only

20:33

black person in senior leadership. Someone,

20:36

a white man decides to

20:39

make a few comments to me.

20:41

It started with a little benign,

20:43

oh, you're going to eat that chicken? Why

20:46

are we protecting them? Wait, wait, wait. I hope you

20:49

have a losses. But

20:54

let me tell you. If I'm calling-

20:56

This is an album. No, this was

20:58

actually outside of Chicago. Well, Chicago

21:00

raises eight. So

21:03

if I'm calling that benign,

21:05

just imagine how much it escalated.

21:08

Now, I never reacted to this

21:10

foolishness. Are people witnessing this? Yes.

21:13

So people are witnessing. Other colleagues are witnessing this

21:15

happen. These are other black colleagues or the white

21:17

folks? These are white folks. I'm now in a

21:19

place that's majority white. I'm the little token

21:21

chocolate chip. And

21:24

so this man is making these comments. I don't say

21:26

anything because I already know how this is going to

21:28

roll. So I'm like, okay,

21:31

but I am watching these colleagues and

21:33

they don't say anything. But

21:35

by the time we get back to the

21:37

office on Monday, they clearly have been sending-

21:39

This is Blackberry days. They clearly have been

21:42

on their blackberries. Yeah, I do know. Because

21:44

as soon as I got there, that Monday

21:46

morning, our president calls me in and he

21:48

says, oh, it's come to my attention that

21:51

some horrible things were said to you. They

21:54

presented me with this letter that they were going

21:56

to send to this man to say all this.

21:58

Right? And I said

22:01

the him hours maybe twenty six,

22:03

twenty seven years old at the

22:05

time I said i really don't

22:07

care what you do to that

22:09

man because you know your problem

22:11

is not him. He's one random

22:13

racist man right? Your problem is

22:15

a culture that actually allow your

22:17

entire staff have to witness that

22:19

and not step up and say

22:21

anything but and a say to

22:23

each other or a good athlete

22:25

know how and when it so

22:27

to bring this back to Birmingham.

22:29

It never. Occurred to me not to

22:31

say that as soon as hard to

22:33

me I know the play vs. You

22:35

know to say it never occurred to

22:37

me to not be that person and

22:39

that's because of Birmingham. Like those are

22:41

the things that I feel like folks

22:43

Give me last a credit I hear

22:45

all the time like oh you're so

22:47

courageous, oh you're this and some of

22:49

that might be true but I'm also

22:51

pretty naive. Some other things that people.

22:54

St are risky as is.

22:56

You know, I just don't.

22:58

I don't give people that

23:00

much power over me. And.

23:02

I think when for will allow

23:05

other people. To. Wield that kind

23:07

of power base, subvert themselves in ways

23:09

that I think diminish their own power.

23:11

Yeah, I have no idea what that's

23:13

like being in Hollywood. S

23:18

I mean honestly that is very

23:20

telling of this like now only

23:22

the kind of person you are

23:24

but also just what you understand

23:26

like work to me right? Because

23:28

like so what was the repercussions

23:31

of you saying this our so

23:33

there was nothing happened. This guy

23:35

got some. Letter Al Davis and the

23:37

let l yeah they did okay has effectively

23:39

what I now know as they were trying

23:41

to make sure at ensue I went in

23:43

as our smart enough at the time to

23:45

think back set of so I mean at

23:47

know it is I hit a three so

23:49

I was never and we never think of

23:51

going to hr slightly narrower now it was

23:53

It was really like. Hey, at

23:55

this point I already know I'm leaving

23:58

this ways our home already. The

24:00

An Exit Strategies Sunlight I'm already out.

24:02

Man, what I'm going to do is

24:04

leave you with some truth whether you

24:06

choose to hear it or not. That's

24:08

up to you and the rest of

24:10

these people in this organization. But I

24:12

think what was more powerful is as

24:14

being unafraid of a say in it

24:16

and right. Recognize. A

24:18

man like what's the worst you can

24:20

do like fire me and at get

24:22

another job. So in that when we

24:24

talk about restoring by educators I feel

24:26

like so many black agitators don't feel

24:28

that way, like they actually don't feel

24:31

like they can say what they want

24:33

to say. They don't feel like they

24:35

can just get another jobs and sell.

24:37

It does become a very like Juri

24:39

name's experience. Can you speak to that?

24:41

Yeah yeah and I have pulled some

24:43

Id and like oh thank you for

24:45

saying the things we can't say yes.

24:47

And I mean here's the truth.

24:49

sometimes they're right. they can't say

24:51

a thing Rational A, especially if

24:53

you're operating in these spaces that

24:56

are extremely litigious and all the

24:58

yes and and less be real.

25:00

a lot less are carrying the

25:02

weight of families and other people

25:04

on our backs like you know

25:06

the thing that as felt super

25:08

comfortable saying it's way six and

25:10

twenty seven when I didn't have.

25:12

A mortgage or town or whatever. Might

25:15

be slightly different now, so I just

25:17

want to own, like, own that as

25:19

a lot as well. So what we're

25:21

trying to do is create space for

25:24

one. Like we also say, we hold

25:26

up mirrors. We want people to see

25:28

themselves in, want people to return to

25:30

themselves and with has. This isn't about

25:32

just getting a bullhorn to say Any

25:35

and everything. We want people to actually

25:37

lean into the things that really matter

25:39

to them. And you can't do that

25:41

if you been wearing a mask. For

25:44

so long that you don't remember? Yeah, we'll

25:46

put matter. See you in the first rice.

25:48

So a lot of that heart

25:50

and soul work is about getting

25:52

people to tap into their own

25:54

version of authenticity, not authenticity, As

25:56

a brand but as my now that as

25:58

what it starts to see. Like honestly

26:00

definitely harm by as say to

26:02

folds all the time. My greatest

26:04

hope is to help people learn

26:07

how to navigate spaces without being

26:09

corrupted by them in order to

26:11

dismantle them. So like what are

26:13

some tests so as see sex

26:15

and sex I do think the

26:17

you have to learn what matters

26:19

in your space like what his

26:21

success measured by and for a

26:23

number of our educators that flags

26:25

Okay it's not incest, student impact

26:28

and students scores and all those.

26:30

Other things as like how are you

26:32

actually engaging with. The broader community. How

26:34

are you making families feel all these

26:36

other sorts of things? But you. Can

26:38

do that in your own way

26:40

and what we're often you know

26:42

actually helping our people to do

26:44

is learn their own gifts and

26:46

string and now lives in things

26:48

about don't follow a cookie cutter

26:50

approach said generally is what some

26:53

white person has cooked up in

26:55

the background. It's like hey you

26:57

can get said those same outcomes

26:59

using the things that are you

27:01

need to you and the people

27:03

that you embrace for ensue. So

27:05

that's part of what we're doing.

27:07

We're also. If. You ask me

27:09

my pass in. Another one of my

27:11

passions is creating safety nets but I

27:13

like to saying of them as trampolines

27:16

and set of safety net. This because

27:18

we see so many other people fail

27:20

up all the time. see at a

27:22

make miss said yes and next thing

27:24

you know they're in this better higher

27:27

paying job that scat broader you know

27:29

I'm sure you've seen missed. And

27:31

she's. Yeah, I mean I that

27:33

Adam and Are and I'm always

27:35

flabbergasted, right? Lie. Yeah, I just

27:37

like this. Really? Because it ends

27:39

up being like, oh, this is

27:41

their redemption route Oh, absolutely. A.

27:43

Here's the thing if I had

27:45

an unlimited pot of money. So

27:48

com right? By. One of

27:50

the things that I want to do is

27:52

create the space for people. to really push

27:54

these systems to change knowing that you're

27:56

probably going you lose your job at

27:58

some point right Like if you're doing

28:00

this and you're doing it for

28:03

real, then two things have to be true.

28:05

One, you have to be building a bench

28:07

behind you. Like, you're gonna really push the

28:09

system. You gotta actually have some

28:11

people behind you so that if and when

28:14

you do have to make a choice that's

28:16

like, hey, I'm gonna say or do this

28:18

thing that I know may get me pushed

28:20

out, but it's okay, because it's not about

28:22

me. It's about this work.

28:24

And if I fill the pipeline of

28:26

people, then that's right. But then it

28:29

also requires that on the other

28:31

end, you've got someone or

28:33

some institution that is invested

28:35

enough in you that that

28:37

one failure or whatever won't

28:39

be fatal. And it actually helps

28:42

to propel you to whatever is the next

28:44

thing. Now that's like

28:47

the ideal. That's right. I

28:50

was like, that's the vision. That is the

28:52

vision. And in some cases,

28:55

I am really proud of the fact

28:57

that we've had people who have pushed

28:59

the envelope and then we've been able

29:01

to help them start their own thing,

29:04

right? It's like, hey, what you're trying

29:06

to do isn't going to fit

29:08

within a system that was never designed to do

29:10

that thing. Well, I'm curious about what are some

29:12

of the things that folks come to you trying

29:14

to do that you feel like you need to

29:16

restore in them for

29:19

them to get to do it? It has run the

29:21

gamut. I'll use an example. One

29:23

of our early fellows was working

29:26

inside a large urban school district.

29:28

I hate that I just said large urban, but that's what

29:31

they call them, but you know what that means. I understand.

29:33

Anyway, Megan Black. And

29:36

Brown in Wisconsin. So working in a

29:39

large district has a data

29:41

background, like data hungry. And

29:44

so was interested in how to use

29:46

data to tell stories about. Oh, this

29:48

person. Okay, got it, got it, got

29:50

it. And what students weren't being served,

29:53

what the data is telling about where

29:55

we need to have more

29:57

resources, how we need to help

29:59

educators. all that stuff and was

30:01

trying to do this within this large

30:03

system and was meeting

30:06

roadblocks, you know, because that's what

30:08

systems do. Yeah. And so as

30:10

a capstone project, because everyone who

30:13

does surge does a large sort

30:15

of capstone or freedom dreams is what

30:17

we call them project, to

30:19

solve some problem that they see within their

30:21

organization or broader community. And

30:24

this person actually founded an

30:26

organization that now fast

30:28

forward, that was 2015. So

30:31

eight years later, now employees

30:34

over 20 people are working internationally.

30:36

Oh, wow. I think

30:38

they're on their second round of VC

30:40

funding. I think they're, I

30:42

don't know all the corporate terms, but you know, raise

30:44

it. Well, you know I don't. Raise a million. Raise

30:47

dollars. And all, yeah. But

30:49

to actually support educators

30:51

and systems of education

30:53

to leverage data, to

30:55

do the right thing for students and

30:57

families. And that's a great example of,

30:59

this is a person who came to

31:01

us, he was already brilliant, already had

31:03

this idea, all of that. But recognizing

31:05

that if you continue to meet roadblocks

31:07

in the system that you're in, nothing

31:10

says that you just can't build your own

31:12

shit. Like, right. And here's what we're gonna

31:14

do. We're actually gonna connect you to people

31:17

that can support you in doing that. We're

31:19

gonna help build your skills around how

31:21

to write a business plan and a

31:23

financial model. We're gonna- Foundational stuff. Exactly.

31:25

Because so many of us, like

31:28

so many of our brilliant ideas

31:30

die on the vine. Not because

31:32

we're not entrepreneurs. Like our whole

31:35

community and existence has been built

31:37

on hustle culture, right? The candy

31:39

lady in the neighborhood, the

31:42

ice cream, maybe that was just my

31:44

neighborhood. You know, like that's who we

31:46

are and who we have been. But

31:48

recognizing that to bring these things to

31:50

scale, we need to invest in our

31:52

people. We need to see their ideas

31:55

as Promising. And those of us who are

31:57

in a position where we might have access to

31:59

a little bit. The power. A little bit

32:01

of money. Whatever leveraged it's a supported.

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decision com/times I'm pretty Tales. What

34:02

would you say are some

34:04

ways that the system

34:06

as it exists in the last

34:10

year, what would you

34:12

say are some ways that are draining

34:14

black educators, specifically black educators? I know

34:16

that you work with black, brown and

34:18

indigenous, but I would love to hear

34:21

specifically black educators because I think

34:23

that, I mean, I can theorize, but I'd

34:25

love to hear from what you're hearing. Yeah.

34:28

So one of our many programs, we have

34:30

run like five different programs at surge is

34:33

the black principles network. And

34:35

this is a network of hundreds of

34:37

black principles from across the country. So

34:40

we hear all the stories. They get an

34:42

out of Tia all the stories. And

34:45

you know, what I will say is we

34:47

just had a graduation celebration for a cohort

34:49

of 20 principles from across the

34:51

country. And they hear

34:53

them say, you know, but for

34:55

this experience of pouring into me,

34:58

I might not have stayed in this profession.

35:00

And it's because I'm

35:03

being asked to be so many things.

35:06

Like I'm holding in the middle of

35:08

a space where we are

35:10

being attacked about what we teach, what

35:12

we say. We're also dealing

35:14

with students who may be far

35:16

behind because of COVID, all these things.

35:19

Right. I'm carrying

35:21

the baggage of an instructional leader

35:23

of trying to do everything that

35:26

I can to ensure that my

35:28

young people thrive. I'm carrying the

35:30

emotional baggage of an

35:33

entire team or school full

35:35

of leaders that need me

35:37

to hold them up and pour

35:39

into them morale. I'm also a

35:42

member of this broader community that

35:44

is being like, we're fighting stuff

35:46

left and right. Yeah. And

35:49

that's pouring into me. Like at some point I

35:51

just don't have any more to give. So

35:54

for us, it is

35:56

my greatest pride to be able to

35:58

create a community of people. of

36:01

care for people who feel so

36:03

invisible, who are frankly doing God's

36:05

work, in my opinion. Like they

36:07

are, whatever you want to call you, a

36:09

supreme deity, like they are doing the work

36:11

that the future of our democracy is

36:14

dependent upon the education of our young

36:16

people, full stop to me. And

36:18

the people who are holding that up, who's

36:21

holding them up? And if it's not us, then

36:24

shame on us. To that point though,

36:27

like we hear about things like book

36:29

banning, this bullshit about CRT. People

36:32

don't even know what that means, by the way. Can you

36:34

please explain? I mean, we are gonna have Kimberly

36:36

Crenshaw actually on the podcast. Okay, so Kimberly Crenshaw.

36:38

I'm not gonna do it. But she created it,

36:40

but she gonna, but here's the thing

36:42

though, she's gonna be

36:45

explaining what CRT is in its

36:47

actual form. Can you explain what

36:49

people think CRT is and why

36:52

black teachers are

36:54

so exhausted by

36:57

this actual bullshit? Oh my goodness, you

36:59

about to make me come up out of my professionalism. Good,

37:01

good. I've been here. But

37:03

so right now, it's like

37:06

anything that you say about

37:08

race, anything that you

37:10

say that is not even

37:13

provocative, it's just truth and

37:15

history is labeled as

37:17

critical race theory. I legitimately was

37:19

talking to a colleague who

37:21

runs an organization that actually

37:24

invests in districts and schools

37:26

to help leaders create space

37:29

of comfort for their staff,

37:31

like to build morale. Yeah. It

37:34

sounds really benign, right? Yeah. But

37:36

he gave me an example of

37:38

being booted out of two different

37:41

districts because people came to

37:43

board meetings and said,

37:45

oh, this is CRT, this is

37:48

da, da, da, simply because they

37:50

actually even mentioned race. The fact

37:52

that they mention data that you

37:55

can look up anywhere that says

37:57

that black boys and girls are

37:59

disproportionately. unfortunately punished for the

38:02

same infractions at higher

38:04

rates for things like, you know, talking

38:06

out of turn, doing whatever. Like there's

38:08

all kind of data that supports this.

38:11

And knowing this as an educator is

38:13

actually really important. It is really- You

38:15

would think. You would think. But

38:18

when you have people and they

38:20

have scripts, they are prepared and

38:22

are prepared to target anything

38:27

that, this is my personal opinion, I'm gonna take

38:29

off my surge hat for a minute and just

38:31

say, this is my purpose. I feel

38:34

that so many people don't want us to know

38:36

our truth because if our

38:38

young people don't know the truth, if

38:40

they're young people don't know the truth, then

38:43

we will undoubtedly repeat the same

38:45

thing. It's like, there will not

38:47

be change. And

38:50

in fact, we will continue to

38:52

backslide into- As

38:54

we are continuing to do. Yes, we talked about

38:56

that earlier. So for me,

38:58

I think we are being hit on

39:01

so many different sides. Like our educators

39:03

are having to fight that nonsense. So,

39:06

you know, people wanna keep you busy

39:08

fighting some bullshit so that you avoid

39:10

the other real stuff that's happening over

39:12

here, right? So it's like, I've

39:14

said before, and I've said this publicly, I've

39:17

been involved in some education conversations that wanted

39:19

to pit black and brown folks against each

39:21

other. And it's like, y'all

39:23

realize that that's part of the plan, right,

39:25

that- Divide and conquer. It

39:28

has been happening for a long time.

39:30

So if we can sit over here

39:32

and fight over these scraps, then we'll

39:34

be oblivious to like the real work

39:36

that's happening to undermine what we know

39:39

our young people in communities need. I

39:41

mean, I theorize that this really came out

39:43

of seeing people come together for the Black

39:45

Lives Matter movement. And they were like, oh

39:47

shit, they're waking up. So we need to

39:49

actually get very organized to quiet them. And

39:52

that's where you get this moms of liberty

39:54

bullshit. That's where you get the banning of

39:56

the books. That's where you get

39:58

the co-opting of the word woke, the co-opting of Seattle. I'm

40:00

wondering though, I don't

40:03

think a lot of us

40:05

who are necessarily not in the

40:07

education system, I think some of

40:09

us kind of, maybe we

40:11

like idealize that because it's an education

40:13

space, that folks are operating

40:16

from like a

40:18

place of, I don't know, ethics

40:20

of principles of values, because like,

40:23

you know better, you do better.

40:25

Yeah. Yeah. But

40:27

that's just not it. I think that's something, and

40:29

I'm saying this as a person who, you know,

40:31

I started my career in a corporate background. I

40:34

came into education, I came

40:37

into it super naive, I came in as

40:39

a person who was like... Did you come in thinking that way?

40:41

Yes. I legitimately came

40:43

in saying, okay, education without access to

40:45

a high quality public education, but for

40:47

that, I wouldn't be in the position

40:49

that I'm in. Fair. And

40:52

I know I'm not a unicorn, forget, you know, other

40:54

people say, like I'm not. Sorry, Tiffany

40:56

Haddish. I'm not

40:58

exceptional in that way. And

41:01

I want to be a part of

41:03

actually creating systems that allow our

41:05

young people to all see themselves as that.

41:07

Right. So, I then... No

41:10

whole cause. Right. I then

41:12

get into this space, and one of the first things that I saw,

41:14

that's why Serge exists, that was

41:16

absolutely surprising and it

41:18

haunted me, was

41:20

the same phenomenon that

41:23

I had seen in corporate spaces. The

41:26

higher you go in organizations, the whiter

41:28

and more elite they get. That

41:31

same thing happening in nonprofits and

41:33

education, which blew me away. Because

41:35

I'm like, well, how is that

41:37

so? If all of these

41:39

babies and families that we serve are

41:41

black and brown people, and a

41:43

lot of your folks won't know that 20% of

41:47

the teacher population in this country identifies

41:49

as black and brown folks, even

41:51

though the majority of students are,

41:54

like over 54% as of... Over

41:57

54% as a student body.

42:00

America is like Umbrella didn't a

42:02

twelve and twenty percent of teachers?

42:04

Is this the? Worden.

42:06

The. Realities of seeing whiteness

42:09

diminish. Yes. So. We

42:11

could get into brown. V Board and the

42:13

role that actually played in nearly

42:15

four thousand blacks usually. That's all

42:18

you black man who be talking

42:20

shit about black women and sounds

42:22

you are widely. Are you on

42:24

that? You unwittingly were a part

42:26

of movement. So. The. Japs,

42:30

Money my brother, but the numbers.

42:32

The numbers actually even get more

42:35

dire when you get to like

42:37

C role. So unlike see I

42:39

was super incentive positions Six percent

42:41

of those folks identify as black.

42:43

Or brown folks, six

42:46

six. So our surge

42:48

was really born in

42:50

response. To that to say this

42:52

is crazy as crazy that we

42:54

have a majority black and brown

42:57

population in our schools. In the

42:59

end, the people who are serving

43:01

them. Here's the thing. I don't

43:03

believe that they're all evil people

43:05

like you might be very well

43:07

meaning and all of them by

43:09

is to give us all pause.

43:11

if the people that were serving

43:13

are not represented in the places

43:15

where we're deciding their fates snazzy,

43:17

That's too much like right now,

43:19

you know And. You

43:22

know that that would require self

43:24

awareness? Yeah, and you know the

43:26

reality that I noticed. One

43:28

of the things it just kind of blows

43:30

my mind about this race in America is

43:32

honestly just the ground on a ground level.

43:35

The last of self awareness they see around

43:37

says. Whiteness. Yeah like.

43:39

He has a slide into a parking lot and

43:41

like. Daphne moves like I'm

43:43

like Peter cries here but it's a slight

43:45

and I don't see that and I'm not

43:48

even making a bra. Shows are you may

43:50

hear ya? I literally I'm like on a

43:52

regular basis. Why? Are they all

43:54

is like the one street. without

43:57

any care or up a like

44:00

consciousness about their bodies because

44:02

they feel so safe. They

44:05

feel so protected. Do you

44:07

know, so this is a bit off topic, but

44:09

we just girlfriends having a chat here. So I'm

44:11

gonna say my partner, my

44:14

husband is a Middle Eastern man

44:18

and he and I have often talked

44:20

about the different ways in which we walk

44:22

through the world. So first of all,

44:24

I did not know before we started dating because I

44:26

had only been with black people. I didn't know all

44:28

these things. Now

44:30

hold up now. So where did you

44:33

find him? Oh, Tinder girl. Yes.

44:35

Old school when Tinder was for people that

44:37

actually wanted to date. This was 2014. I

44:40

mean, now to be real clear, I was just having

44:43

fun. He was my second

44:45

date. Just

44:47

to be clear, he was my second date of the nights.

44:49

I told him that he can join the rotation,

44:51

but there were no starting spots on

44:53

the roster. But yet

44:56

here we are nine years later. But

44:59

I did not one realized that as

45:01

a Lebanese man, according to our census,

45:03

he is white. That

45:06

is insane. I have another question

45:08

then because what made you swipe right

45:10

on him? Because

45:12

you said you've never. Yes, he was

45:15

attractive. All right, shout out to

45:17

Lebanon. And

45:20

whatever he had written was just dope. It

45:22

was like, it was my kind of humor.

45:24

It wasn't just him with a tiger. Yeah,

45:27

that was a big thing on Tinder. Big.

45:30

And so I was like, oh, I

45:32

think I could. And then this banter,

45:34

all the things. Okay, but what we

45:36

talked about is one, like

45:39

he and I walk through the world

45:41

very differently. Now you've seen my husband,

45:43

like ain't nothing about him. White, you

45:45

don't see him as a white man.

45:48

But he's like, can you believe that according

45:51

to your census, because he came here as

45:53

a refugee, he had to go through all

45:55

the things. I'm supposed

45:57

to check white because that's how they

45:59

keep white. as a majority as we

46:01

keep changing the goals. There was a whole reason,

46:03

yeah, there's a whole thing for that. There's a

46:05

whole thing for that. Again, that's another podcast

46:07

episode. But to your point about

46:10

how we walk through the world, he's like,

46:12

you walk through the world and feel invisible

46:14

as a Black woman. Like, people don't see

46:16

you. Like, people will walk into

46:18

you on a sidewalk. Like, they don't see

46:20

you. We've all experienced this. I almost had

46:22

a full fight on a Delta Airline flight,

46:24

opposite. Like, do you hear that, same

46:27

thing? And he's like,

46:29

I have the opposite issue. Post 9-11

46:31

in this country, people

46:34

are hyper-aware of

46:36

everywhere I am. If

46:39

we want to fly southwest and not have

46:41

anybody sit by us, then he can sit

46:43

there and I can sit in the window.

46:45

Ain't nobody sitting on that row. Like, they're

46:47

like, that's a kind of a

46:49

life hack, just saying. That's

46:52

definitely lemon and lemonade. And

46:54

it's so real. But to your point, and I

46:56

try, in our work, I

46:59

don't center whiteness. I've said

47:02

earlier, like, if somebody else's ministry

47:05

to pour into white folks and help educate them

47:07

and all of that, that's not what I

47:09

do. But it is somebody's ministry

47:11

to do it, and it's great. But

47:13

I think it's important, at least for

47:15

me, I didn't recognize the different ways

47:18

in which whiteness and all

47:20

that encompasses that, even though we know it's

47:22

not even really a thing, impacts

47:25

those of us of color in so

47:27

many ways. Like, we tired.

47:30

Like, how do you live? I'm tired,

47:32

boss. How do you not be thinking all the

47:34

time? Like, people don't see me on the

47:36

street, and I have to make myself hyper-visible.

47:39

I have to take up space in

47:41

order to just be. Life

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dealing together for a scholar about.

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Three sweaters to get the fourth free. Oh, you

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bad of a temperature change as twenty five to fifty

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six big about half an hour buffet limited time Thames

49:35

restrictions apply see a decision com/times I'm pretty Tales. Even

49:41

just the consciousness that like, if you're walking on a

49:43

sidewalk and some white people walking on a sidewalk, I

49:46

know black people come on, admit to yourselves. You be like,

49:48

let's see if they gonna move. Oh, absolutely. Every

49:51

time. Every time. Every time. Every

49:54

time. Are you gonna move? Are you gonna move? Or

49:56

are you gonna expect me to move? Right. Are

49:58

we gonna both move? Yes. I'm fine

50:00

with us both moving. Yeah. You know, I don't know if

50:02

you saw like the video kind of went viral where they

50:04

were like, this is why people when you're hiking. Oh, and

50:07

it was so like, why would be like, um,

50:11

oh, it's great over there. It's great over there. And

50:13

it's like, in that, like this particular

50:15

spaces with a particular kind of white

50:17

people where you feel like it's not

50:20

that, but just in general, the hyper

50:22

awareness is incredibly tiring, exhausting. I can't

50:24

imagine being an educator and having

50:26

that hyper awareness as well as being also,

50:28

you also have to be hyper aware of

50:30

the children. Um, but

50:32

before we even get to that, I want to ask you, you

50:35

have spoken in this interview just about you as

50:37

a leader. You've all been a leader. You've all

50:39

been the person who says the thing. So

50:42

many women, particularly black women are

50:44

like, I cannot meet somebody as

50:47

this person that really takes me in,

50:50

in this way. What do you think

50:52

is unique about your husband that

50:54

he is able to receive

50:57

all of that? I mean, I'm

50:59

assuming you've spoken very highly of him. So I'm

51:01

assuming we're still good. Okay. I mean, he gets

51:03

on my nerves every day just to be clear

51:05

relationships, but which is why I don't think I'm

51:08

going to do another one. I

51:10

don't, I think I need a good five year.

51:12

By the way, this is, this is a number

51:15

two, the bite number two at this apple. He's

51:17

husband number two for me. So I see. I

51:19

mean, he says to stop counting because he's like,

51:21

no, can I just be the last one? But

51:24

like, what do you, what is it about him

51:26

though that you think allows him,

51:29

cause you have to be outside of patriarchy

51:31

to be able to receive a woman like

51:34

you. Yeah. And I will say this is,

51:36

and I'm not saying this unique, this is

51:38

not unique about him as a man who

51:40

is non-black because I was with black men

51:43

my entire life before him. And this was

51:45

also not the case in many other relationships.

51:47

So I think a

51:49

couple of different things. And without,

51:51

cause I don't want to start crying up in here.

51:54

Like everyone cries on this show. Some

51:56

of them, but some people make

51:58

it through to the end. I know,

52:00

I want to be one of

52:02

those. But there is something about

52:05

his journey and his story as

52:07

a refugee, and from

52:09

a culture that really

52:12

elevates women, like

52:14

the mom is, the woman is the

52:16

center of the thing. Like in many

52:19

ways, the matriarch is the center of

52:21

the thing. So in many ways, he

52:23

has felt sort of judged in his

52:26

family because he made the decision to leave,

52:28

to go to another place, to go to college. Like

52:30

that's not what they do culturally. Like you stay with

52:32

your mama until you get married, like that, or

52:34

that, whatever. And so I think his

52:37

experience in that culture, but

52:39

as well as a refugee and

52:42

just feeling like an outsider in

52:44

so many spaces, he went from

52:46

Lebanon to Dubai, Dubai to Canada,

52:48

Canada to Texas. At

52:52

what point did you go to therapy? Good

52:55

girl. That was, by the

52:57

way, a huge, when we started dating, I

52:59

was like, I think you need some

53:02

therapy. That's awesome. Yeah, and it didn't

53:04

work until we had our daughter, interestingly

53:06

enough. You mean it didn't work that he didn't

53:09

go or he didn't go? Like he would always

53:11

say like, I don't know, I don't know. And

53:13

I think having a child, particularly

53:15

a girl child, I

53:17

don't know if you would agree with me, George. Like

53:20

was the impetus to say, I

53:22

actually, I want to show up as a

53:24

good man. Like I want to be a good,

53:26

he's always been a good man to me, but

53:29

a good father. You know

53:31

what a homeboy of mine said recently? He was like, a lot

53:33

of men don't even know how to be a good

53:35

person, let alone

53:37

a good man. He was like, so much

53:39

of it is actually first just being a

53:41

good person and then being

53:44

a good man. And so like, I feel like that's

53:46

what you're describing. Like she was a good person with

53:48

you, and then it's like, how do I

53:50

become like a good man? Like

53:52

which encompasses being a father and being

53:54

like, which also connected. Yeah, which also

53:56

means I got to deal with the

53:59

trauma. Like. That's the only, all

54:01

that means. Yeah, I gotta actually do the

54:03

work. I will never forget, sorry, you asked me

54:05

about him, I'm gonna tell you about me just cause I think people

54:07

need to hear it. Like I, in

54:09

my first marriage, I will never

54:11

forget the eyeopening moment that I had in

54:13

therapy. I had been, you know,

54:16

we had done years of couples therapy, all this

54:18

stuff, da da da da da. And

54:20

I realized I've been wasting all this time

54:22

trying to fix him or trying to fix

54:25

this thing when ultimately my

54:27

shit is broken. And if

54:29

I don't fix that, then I'm not gonna

54:31

show up well for anybody. Like I'm not

54:33

gonna be able to, the epiphany, yo. That's

54:36

like really the epiphany, but it's hard.

54:39

Like, especially for, I'm gonna call, you

54:41

know, I'm not projecting onto you, but

54:43

there's a whole group of us insecure

54:45

overachievers out there where we've been amazing

54:47

in life. We've been great students, we've

54:50

been this, we've been leaders, all this

54:52

stuff. And to have to like

54:54

look in the mirror and say, there's actually

54:56

shit about myself I do not like. Right?

55:00

Yep. Right? I mean, that's how I started in therapy.

55:02

I literally started going to therapy because one person too many

55:04

told me people don't like you. And

55:06

I was like, okay,

55:09

I gotta go talk about

55:11

this. Because I don't know. I

55:15

just feel like that's such a huge thing that

55:17

a lot of women who

55:19

are overachieving leaders don't

55:23

want to face, because they think it's gonna

55:25

undermine their ability to overachieve and lead. And

55:27

it's done the exact opposite. Like I say,

55:30

and I say this with all

55:32

love to my ex-husband, because I wish him

55:34

well, he's great. He's not a horrible human

55:36

being by any stretch of the imagination. Good

55:38

for you. But Serge would not exist

55:40

if I hadn't gotten divorced. Period.

55:43

I wouldn't have been able to live

55:46

into the thing that was my calling

55:48

and my purpose, because I

55:50

was spending so much time trying

55:52

to be a smaller version of

55:54

myself in order to make something

55:56

work. Why, what, what, what?

56:03

The answer is always the patriarchy.

56:05

The patriarchy. I mean, it's just, because

56:07

honestly, like the whole being a smaller person,

56:09

you know, it aligns with

56:11

even what we're talking about with these

56:13

educators, right? Because when you're in these

56:15

spaces that are so white dominant, like

56:18

that are so systemic, you naturally

56:20

become smaller just out of just safety, right? Because

56:22

you've been told that you take up too much

56:24

space. And when you do take up space, we've

56:26

all heard the thing. Oh, you make sure to

56:28

look at my episode side effects of too much.

56:32

You're intimidating. You're this, you're

56:34

that, you know, all your extra, right?

56:37

Oh, let me tell you something.

56:41

My sophomore year of college, I was in

56:44

a suite. When I walked up to the

56:46

door, my name was not on the door, but

56:48

everybody else's name was on the door. And

56:51

I literally walked up with my ex, and he

56:53

looked over and my name had been strewn to

56:56

the side. So I already knew like,

56:58

all right, well, we about to walk

57:00

into what would you walk into? Okay.

57:02

Yes. Right. So I'm in this

57:04

suite with like my, my actual roommate, she was

57:07

fine, but everybody else had like issues with me

57:09

and I did not know what these issues were.

57:11

And so one night I was like, okay, I

57:13

would like to schedule for us on a Friday

57:15

night to like take tequila shots. And each of

57:18

y'all could tell me what your issue

57:20

is with me. And

57:22

literally five out of

57:24

the six, the issue was,

57:27

well, you're just really extra. You're just too much. You're

57:29

a show off. You're a lot. And

57:32

I was just like, I mean, in like

57:34

what way? Because I got, I'm flat chested.

57:39

My booty ain't poking out. Like I barely hitting

57:41

puberty at this point. So I'm still like, what is

57:43

it? Well, you

57:46

know, you doing cartwheels, like there's a field. Why

57:48

wouldn't I do cartwheels? Like this makes sense

57:50

to me. But like it dawned on

57:52

me in that moment, like, oh,

57:55

if you want them to like you, like, you're

57:57

going to have to like be smaller. long

58:01

time being that because

58:03

extra yeah did you find your people have

58:05

you found your people oh yeah and that's

58:07

what you that's what you realize like so

58:10

I this I'm

58:15

not gonna get out and one of those

58:17

became like my people people yeah yes

58:20

because the thing is so

58:23

I would talk through a strength

58:25

space lens because I do strength

58:27

space strengths coaching strength

58:29

strength okay strength I was

58:32

like string space what does that

58:34

mean okay sorry that's my Alabama

58:36

coming out people see you

58:39

and experience you through the lens of

58:41

their own strength right yes

58:43

oh yes you're extra

58:45

because that would be so

58:47

uncomfortable for me right like

58:50

that would be so your willingness

58:52

to do cartwheels and the thing

58:54

like I would be embarrassed as

58:56

hell so you should be embarrassed

58:58

too like just understanding that people

59:01

my mom used to always say I rap you

59:03

Wanda like that woman she

59:06

would always say it ain't about

59:08

you she would say that all the

59:10

time ain't about you it's not about you I

59:12

hate it hearing that I thought

59:14

that was the ultimate adult pop

59:16

out like yeah I mean but

59:19

I now understand like this was

59:21

before reading Ruiz's for agreements it's

59:23

like what she was saying is

59:25

like don't take shit personal like

59:28

like most of what happens to

59:30

you even for you

59:32

is often not even about you and

59:35

like it just helps and I feel like

59:37

I could write a book of all

59:39

the wisdom that I got I lost my mom when I was

59:41

23 thank

59:44

you and her best

59:46

friend once said to me maybe

59:48

a year after her death you know my mom

59:50

was disabled my entire life and she said your

59:53

mom was so tired and she said she

59:55

was gonna let go when she knew that

59:57

you were ready now imagine

59:59

here this at 23, 24. I'm like, that

1:00:01

math ain't math. And I'm not

1:00:04

ready. But I think about

1:00:06

so much of what she poured into

1:00:08

me that has helped me show

1:00:10

up in spaces in the way. That

1:00:13

whole like, three years later, you were 26

1:00:15

telling them people, Exactly.

1:00:18

And it's because of just her stuff

1:00:21

that she poured into me. And so

1:00:23

I really do believe, and

1:00:25

we've gone in lots of

1:00:27

places with this, but we can't lead

1:00:29

people to their breakthrough from our

1:00:31

brokenness. So unless I

1:00:35

say it again,

1:00:38

I said we cannot lead

1:00:40

other people to their

1:00:42

breakthrough from our

1:00:45

brokenness. That you

1:00:48

put that on a mug. Because that

1:00:50

right there is so

1:00:53

profound. I think that so

1:00:55

many people don't, first

1:00:58

of all, so many people don't even feel like they need

1:01:00

to help others and lead. Right. But they fear

1:01:05

their brokenness, not realizing that like,

1:01:07

there's so much strength. Yes.

1:01:09

And that's particularly to bring it back

1:01:11

to our educators. The reason

1:01:14

that our work that and the

1:01:16

heart and spirit part of our work

1:01:18

is so important is because if

1:01:20

you don't do that, like

1:01:22

you can learn all the skills and

1:01:25

all that stuff, but you are inevitably

1:01:27

going to have to fight against something.

1:01:29

Something is going to come against you.

1:01:31

And if you haven't actually done the

1:01:33

work to deal with the limiting beliefs

1:01:35

and all the other bullshit that we

1:01:37

carry, then you won't be able to

1:01:39

withstand that. So what we're trying to

1:01:41

do is actually create, as I

1:01:44

said earlier, this container of care, pouring

1:01:46

our people so that they can

1:01:48

sustain over time. It's not just about get

1:01:50

that next promotion, be the next superintendent. Like,

1:01:52

yes, we want all of that, but we

1:01:54

want you to actually be able to thrive

1:01:56

when you're there. And that's what we're trying

1:01:58

to do. And that's what Means you gotta

1:02:00

have community and you have to have done

1:02:03

your work so that you can. Support other

1:02:05

people and do. And there's. While.

1:02:07

Ya to support me. As

1:02:09

bizarre into my patria the Amanda Berry

1:02:11

where we are going to be answering

1:02:14

your questions. I you know we do

1:02:16

this every show we got our bonus

1:02:18

questions an army this amount of the

1:02:20

search institutes of the answering questions like

1:02:23

what jobs who people tend to get

1:02:25

after leaving teaching. Now we did a

1:02:27

whole agitator series here on the show

1:02:29

with a number of educators that we

1:02:32

interviewed. you know, David John or his

1:02:34

cram sets of Cf out of people

1:02:36

let so many of them have less

1:02:38

educating. Our area yeah for various reasons

1:02:41

apps but still all very valid reasons

1:02:43

related to the system. Yes, Rises though

1:02:45

I would definitely want to get into

1:02:47

that's rather than that's how about what

1:02:49

role do the teachers have informing the

1:02:51

curriculums settings? And unless I'm missing for

1:02:53

a lot of us is actually how

1:02:55

the system like were actually work out

1:02:57

Xii that will be talking about those

1:02:59

things and more so how on over

1:03:02

to ah the Patriarch Amanda Seals? Are

1:03:04

you go to the Amanda verse. It's

1:03:06

a university. In this. Life

1:03:12

is full of things. To manage your

1:03:14

worth, your family, your plans,

1:03:17

and your treatment considered. She

1:03:19

senses of humor maps which milligram injection

1:03:21

it is hitting yourself from the comfort

1:03:23

of home. If you're ready for something

1:03:25

different, ask your healthcare provider that you

1:03:27

since and check out the details as

1:03:29

she simply. By

1:03:32

Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corporation. I'm

1:03:34

not even phrase. Sometimes. I legit.

1:03:36

forget to eat. And. When that

1:03:38

happens, I'm not in the mood to

1:03:41

try and like figure out what I'm

1:03:43

gonna suck. Nom and all some other

1:03:45

people who simply both better than me

1:03:47

and I can go right so them

1:03:49

on door-yes. That's. Right, listen

1:03:52

door It as had

1:03:54

saved young girls so

1:03:56

many times. And. If you're

1:03:58

really bad even get you would-path and

1:04:00

then get you a discount on the

1:04:02

door-in that you're doing. So. They'll

1:04:05

be like me don't let yourself go the

1:04:07

whole day and they realize all my dad's

1:04:09

That's why I'm cranky because I haven't eaten

1:04:11

anything. Know. Tabby. The door-and

1:04:13

gets his the nutrients in

1:04:16

your system all right. Door.

1:04:18

Dash your door to more.

1:04:20

Download the door-am now to

1:04:22

get almost anything delivered. Door.

1:04:24

Dash your door to more! Must

1:04:27

be twenty one who are older

1:04:29

to order alcohol drink responsibly alcohol

1:04:31

available only in select markets. Combating

1:04:34

dealing together for a scholar about.

1:04:36

Three sweaters to get the fourth free. Oh, you

1:04:38

got fleeced. Next caller I. Traded my old

1:04:40

Samsung and eighteen t for a new Samsung Galaxy

1:04:43

as twenty four plus and shows my plan. Machine

1:04:45

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1:04:47

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the Dnc Connecting changes everything. Off is very

1:04:56

bad of a temperature change as twenty five to fifty

1:04:58

six big about half an hour buffet limited time Thames

1:05:00

restrictions apply see a decision com/times I'm pretty Tales. Well

1:05:12

as we have anyone from

1:05:14

education we get educated specific.

1:05:18

You know, I think so

1:05:20

many folks are one that

1:05:22

just very. Scared. Me:

1:05:24

Included of how the repercussions

1:05:26

of the shift in education

1:05:28

in this country are going

1:05:30

to play out like odds

1:05:33

hop love as go into

1:05:35

a pandemic right on top

1:05:37

of just the world itself

1:05:39

just being in chaos and

1:05:41

mayhem, the actual like concerted

1:05:43

effort to attack the people

1:05:45

through education. We know

1:05:47

that. that has been a

1:05:49

very effective tool you are we know

1:05:51

that that is not by like accidents

1:05:53

by bless the books like we were

1:05:55

not allowed to read by punishable by

1:05:57

death right that's right a like this

1:06:00

not like, you know, and so like,

1:06:02

where do you feel like your

1:06:04

heart lies in, in this time?

1:06:08

Because when you tell me that you have educators who

1:06:10

have said to you, like, I was about to quit.

1:06:13

I was about to go start a school, I

1:06:15

was about to start a school shop in Australia,

1:06:17

but Carmita and the Surge kept me in it

1:06:19

because y'all poured into them. What

1:06:21

or how are you poured into to keep

1:06:24

doing this work at a time where it

1:06:26

does feel so exhaustive,

1:06:28

but yet it's so essential? Yeah, so I'm

1:06:30

gonna say two things. One is

1:06:32

I'm a studier of history. This

1:06:35

is not the first time they've come for us. Girl,

1:06:38

I know what you're trying to say. You

1:06:40

know, and I

1:06:43

really believe the fight changes

1:06:46

over time. It shifts, the

1:06:48

actors change, but what's

1:06:50

underneath it is always the

1:06:53

same, which is a

1:06:55

real questioning or

1:06:58

disbelief in our humanity and

1:07:01

our ability to just be and be

1:07:03

free. I would challenge you on that. I

1:07:06

think it's actually a disbelief in their

1:07:08

humanity. Oh, okay. Yes, I,

1:07:11

yes. I think that's the fine

1:07:13

line between arrogance and insecurity. I

1:07:16

think it's actually they don't believe

1:07:19

in themselves. And so their

1:07:21

own ability to feel valuable

1:07:24

is tied to, yes,

1:07:27

undermining our, yes. And

1:07:30

as a studier of history and

1:07:32

just, uh, call me whatever,

1:07:36

believer in my people, we

1:07:39

meet the fight every single time.

1:07:41

We do. Like every time now

1:07:43

there's going to be casualties along the way.

1:07:46

And all of that, I guess those can

1:07:48

be casualties

1:07:50

of a certain kind too. Because

1:07:53

the way you infiltrate a people is to

1:07:55

find an area of weakness. And I don't

1:07:57

even have to do the work. If I

1:07:59

have you. you do my work for me. We

1:08:01

can go through, yeah. We can

1:08:03

go through all of that. But I do

1:08:06

have this unwavering belief in

1:08:09

our ability to step up to any

1:08:11

moment. And often it comes acting outside

1:08:13

of the system. So you

1:08:16

have people, I was just in conversation over

1:08:18

the last week with a number of people who

1:08:20

are starting their own school

1:08:22

programs. Cause

1:08:25

what we done do? We're not gone

1:08:27

bow to us. It's like, okay. So

1:08:30

there's this professor, mispronounce

1:08:33

her name, but she did

1:08:35

this work, I think it's Batalani

1:08:37

here, something like that. Sorry lady.

1:08:39

But what she talked about are

1:08:41

the three actors, the three actors

1:08:43

that are always present in any

1:08:45

major social justice movement that is

1:08:47

very successful. And she

1:08:49

says they are activators, innovators,

1:08:54

and orchestrators. I call

1:08:56

innovators, infiltrators in my view. In

1:08:59

our movements, you gotta have

1:09:01

the people who are outside pushing the

1:09:03

system, saying like, hell no, we won't

1:09:05

go, whatever. Like you gotta have those people.

1:09:07

Cause the system is not gonna change inertia. Like

1:09:09

we're not gonna change unless somebody. It's not gonna

1:09:11

change just cause it should. Right. But

1:09:14

you also have to have infiltrators. You

1:09:16

have to have people within those systems

1:09:19

who are like, I'm in here to actually

1:09:21

change the thing. A school by the door.

1:09:23

Yeah. Yes. I

1:09:25

just suggested that book to someone just this

1:09:27

weekend. But

1:09:30

then you've also gotta have orchestrators. People

1:09:32

who use their power outside of the

1:09:34

system, whether it was Harry Belafonte and

1:09:36

civil rights and like, I'm gonna give

1:09:39

you a plane or put you up

1:09:41

in a motel or Ella Baker or

1:09:43

whatever. You know, it's like, you've gotta

1:09:45

have those people too. So I see

1:09:48

this as just as one of those

1:09:50

moments. Like we have to recognize that

1:09:52

there are people in all of those

1:09:54

places. Now what we can't do

1:09:56

is vilify

1:09:59

and demonize. people because they choose to

1:10:01

fight from a different place than me. So

1:10:03

like if I'm an

1:10:06

agitator, I can't actually vilify

1:10:08

you because you choose to be in

1:10:10

the system and try to change it.

1:10:12

Oh yeah, but as long as you are part

1:10:15

of the same page. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, oh,

1:10:17

we gotta be on the same page, right? We

1:10:19

all, you know, we're all fighting for the same

1:10:21

thing. We're just choosing to do it in different

1:10:23

ways. Multifung approach. And I believe in our people

1:10:25

and our ability to do that. Like it's not

1:10:27

going to happen overnight, but I see instances, cause

1:10:30

I'm talking to leaders all the time. They

1:10:32

are doing it right now. I was just

1:10:34

talking to a sister who's like, Hey, I'm

1:10:36

starting, you know, this school in Kansas city.

1:10:39

It's off the grid. Like we're, you

1:10:41

know, we're specifically looking to

1:10:43

support students who have been left

1:10:45

out of systems who have special needs and da

1:10:48

da da da da. I'm talking to another brother

1:10:50

who was like, okay, I'm gonna keep doing

1:10:52

this thing within the system. But then

1:10:54

I'm also starting my own organization over

1:10:56

here. That's going to do like, and

1:10:58

that's what we do. And

1:11:00

I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to get up

1:11:02

and do this work every day. If

1:11:05

I didn't believe in our innate ability

1:11:07

to tackle whatever comes at us now,

1:11:09

that doesn't make me, I mean, that doesn't stop

1:11:12

me from being frustrated and mad as hell at

1:11:14

all the BS. Like what we can say Rosa

1:11:16

parks was black in Florida. Okay. That's, you

1:11:18

know, what are like all the craziness, but

1:11:21

I have to see the craziness for what it

1:11:23

is. And I have to double down on my

1:11:25

investment in my people. Cause I think that's where

1:11:27

our liberation is going to come. Well,

1:11:29

where can people get more information on

1:11:31

the surge Institute? You can find us

1:11:34

on all the socials. It's our website

1:11:36

is surge institute.org. But we have

1:11:38

a surge Institute, YouTube channel, IG,

1:11:40

we're surge Institute, all the

1:11:42

things linked in there are

1:11:45

opportunities for you to find out more about the

1:11:47

work that we do, but also volunteer,

1:11:49

get our newsletter, financially

1:11:51

support, please. And

1:11:54

if you are an educator, we're currently

1:11:56

in seven different markets across the country,

1:11:59

but our. consistently growing. So

1:12:03

follow us and hopefully we'll be in a

1:12:05

city near you and have an opportunity for

1:12:07

you to join our family. There you have

1:12:09

it y'all. Surge on.

1:12:12

Surge on. Swore with surge. Swore

1:12:14

with surge. Thank you Camita. Thank

1:12:16

you. Life

1:12:20

is full of things to manage.

1:12:22

Your work, your family, your plans

1:12:24

and your treatment. Consider

1:12:26

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1:12:36

Q-Sensa and check out the details at

1:12:38

q-simta.com. Brought to you

1:12:40

by Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corporation. I'm

1:12:42

not even frightened. Sometimes I legit

1:12:44

forget to eat. And when that

1:12:47

happens, I'm not in the mood to try

1:12:49

and like figure out what I'm gonna cook.

1:12:51

No. And I also know that people will

1:12:53

simply cook better than me and I can

1:12:55

get right to them on

1:12:57

DoorDash. Yes, that's right.

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1:13:42

Welcome back to Dealing Together. First caller?

1:13:45

I bought three sweaters to get the fourth free. Oh, you

1:13:47

got fleeced. Next caller? I traded

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