Episode Transcript
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episodes without the ads. He's
1:02
not how fam it. Yardley, Welcome
1:04
back to Part Two and the
1:06
conclusion of Signs of a Serial
1:08
Killer let me catch up quickly.
1:10
From where we left off Empire
1:12
Line, a man named Sam has
1:15
called Nine One One to say
1:17
he thinks his neighbor Leroy is
1:19
in trouble. Homicide. Lieutenant
1:21
John arrived at the scene but
1:23
he doesn't see Leroy so he
1:25
goes into the house where he
1:27
just coverage Leroy, his girlfriend Sue.
1:29
They make entry into the house
1:32
and they see a female. Laying.
1:34
On the floor she is
1:36
bound with zip ties. Hands
1:39
behind her back she has
1:41
a plastic bag around her
1:43
face. They actually cut the
1:45
bag off of Sue. And
1:48
she spontaneously starts to bury. They
1:50
go into the garage and in
1:52
the garage they finally roy. Leroy.
1:55
Was pronounced deceased at the scene. A
1:58
block away from the house where. Attack occurred.
2:01
A man named Mark who has
2:03
blood all over his clothes is
2:05
having a chat with the sheriff's
2:07
deputy. Mark Want to get his
2:09
bicycle back from the front of
2:12
Leroy House but first the deputy
2:14
has questions about the blood on
2:16
Marks close. Meanwhile other officers near
2:18
the crime scene are talking to.
2:20
Sam says the guy who called
2:22
Nine One One. Marks.
2:25
As he was up here earlier riding
2:27
his bike and he crashed his bike,
2:29
that's why he's got some blood on
2:32
his pants in his hands. I don't
2:34
think Sam.all the way down to the
2:36
end of a walkway before Sam looked
2:38
up the street and said, That's.
2:40
The guy that was stand and
2:42
over Leroy. Obviously this
2:45
identification by Sam of Mars is
2:47
a problem for Mark. So police
2:49
put Mark in handcuffs, They find
2:51
out where he lives and go
2:54
to his apartment to make sure
2:56
nobody else is in danger or
2:58
deceased. Indeed, the apartment is empty.
3:01
If people that he does fall
3:03
as as it, it's. So.
3:05
We figured out where he was living.
3:08
If you were writing a story about
3:10
you know some kind of serial murderer
3:12
and what you might find his home.
3:14
What I saw in there with at
3:17
least scratches the surface and be the
3:19
kinds of things I would expect to
3:21
see in a Hollywood Moves. And
3:24
downs. One of my
3:26
neighbors casually approaches Lieutenant John
3:29
and dropped a bombshell. And
3:31
as I'm here this guy walks up.
3:33
He says is this anything to do
3:35
with the lady who died in their
3:37
three days ago? She's pointing at a
3:39
door that has nothing to do with
3:41
where we are. Hi
3:46
There I'm Yardley. I'm Dan on
3:48
days and I'm Paula. Hancocks.
3:51
Save and I are identical twins
3:54
and retired detective some small town
3:56
Usa and how much better prosecutor
3:58
who gets the golden sun? They
4:00
were using a revolutionary Dna tool. Between
4:02
at three of us, we've investigated thousands
4:04
of crimes for petty theft to sexual
4:06
assaults, child abuse to murder each case
4:08
recover his told by the detective who
4:11
investigated it, offering a rare personal account
4:13
of how they solve the crime, name's
4:15
places, and certain details at unchanged protect
4:17
the privacy of victims and their families.
4:19
And although we're aware that some of
4:21
our listeners may be familiar with these
4:23
cases, we ask you to please join
4:25
us to continuing to protect the true
4:28
identities of those involved out of respect.
4:30
For what they've been through, My
4:41
neighbor of March asks about another dead
4:43
woman three doors down in the same
4:45
apartment building where you guys are searching.
4:48
Deaths. And I know what
4:50
are you talking about and he said
4:53
well he doesn't have a woman who
4:55
lives in that apartment or lived in
4:57
an apartment and she passed away and
4:59
I think this was like a Friday
5:01
and he suggests he died in there
5:03
on Wednesday. I said okay I go
5:06
we see elderly. Was she sick? did
5:08
the police com and he said no
5:10
she was an elderly said she was
5:12
probably inner early to mid sixties. Very
5:14
consistent with all the women that have
5:17
him involved in. the thing about focus.
5:19
As to be wishy ill or was he
5:21
in horrible physical shape pretty goes know she
5:23
ran marathons and i bought okay so day
5:25
but he talk about what happened and so
5:28
they just found her dead in there as
5:30
okay the police came right exacerbated the white
5:32
van com you know in and take her
5:34
away and he said yeah as soon as
5:36
i did the corner and been there i
5:39
said okay a second your name real quick
5:41
and so i wrote his name down and
5:43
i said you know if i have courses
5:45
do you mind if I call you later
5:47
he goes no no. Absolutely did.
5:50
This neighbors max tell you the dead
5:52
woman's name. Her. Name was Lynn.
5:54
So I got back my car
5:56
and I called the morgue and
5:58
I thought to. Wild goose chase,
6:00
but there's a little weird and so
6:03
the more and closes at five. But
6:05
the Corners deputies that are on duty
6:07
be live in there during their twenty
6:09
four hour shifts and so I gotta
6:11
hold the one of the deputies that
6:13
I had dealt with a million times
6:15
and been to a million autopsies where
6:17
he'd done the corners deputy they're adapting
6:19
and Tim. And. I
6:22
said hates him I said i'm sorry to bother
6:24
Yeah, and I are used. Always clown those guys
6:26
little bit because they're done at five o'clock this
6:28
is by now nine o'clock at night and they're
6:30
sitting there with their footie pajamas in a in
6:32
a bowl ice cream of unassigned selves and so.
6:35
With a bunch of dead bodies Run behind.
6:37
What they say they have a living quarters. There's
6:39
else but it. You're right. it is kind of
6:41
a weird place to be. It's been in the
6:43
night when. You're serious. The more
6:45
deputies the land of more. When
6:48
they're on they're all night shift. It's
6:50
like a firehouse so they they have
6:53
with quarters in there are of says
6:55
there's the more gary other refrigerators. ah
6:57
there's the autopsy rooms and then there's
6:59
mistreat of area and then there's a
7:02
living quarters in there to. Never
7:04
heard is that have a separate French for their
7:06
snacks Now they put him in our with the
7:08
body. And your sleeping
7:10
at night? New here you hear a noise
7:13
that's gotta be a little weird as what
7:15
I said as aired sounds, refrigerators clicked on
7:17
or something. I'd have my gun on my
7:19
says. Yes,
7:24
I know Now. I'm also used
7:26
to tell me ghosts the ones that they're
7:28
vertebrate are they can hurt you or yeah,
7:30
I know that on a lateral Not admit
7:32
there's some part of me that doesn't absorb
7:34
the. God. I
7:37
wouldn't be able to do it and so I.
7:39
I said he i i need some info
7:41
I'm at this thing we got kind of
7:44
a big case role in and did you
7:46
guys happen to have a case out of
7:48
and I give the address Tim said ah
7:50
yeah he says actually I did the removal
7:52
and I said okay what can you tell
7:54
me about it in he said done it
7:57
may be natural it it's pending talks right
7:59
now the autopsy is over and because you're
8:01
not not a whole lot to it. And.
8:03
I said okay. Sir. Leonard
8:06
had her autopsy done.
8:09
Ten says they're waiting on
8:11
a pending tax That's a
8:13
toxicology screen. Correct Sobo autopsy itself.
8:15
The procedure was completed but nothing
8:18
jumped out From the physical assessment
8:20
of her body. there was no
8:22
indication of any trauma, there was
8:24
no indication of a heart attack
8:26
vascular congestion in those cases they
8:28
look for. So when they don't
8:30
see anything that would indicate what
8:32
her cause of death of be,
8:34
they put the talks outs in
8:36
a way. For the results of
8:38
the talks in it can end
8:40
up undetermined as a thousand deaths,
8:42
but in the interim what spending
8:44
is. Undetermined Pending talks.
8:47
And talks takes several weeks to come
8:49
back. It's not like it's two days
8:51
later via an even longer if we're
8:53
doing some counted you know deep talks
8:55
with done some of those and I
8:57
said did you photograph the scene. Yep!
9:00
A subtle cat semi i need to look
9:02
those pictures and he said no problem of
9:04
see in the morning Nast's any to come
9:06
by now. Now. Yeah,
9:09
but your robot? I'm okay. He puts
9:11
more. Emphasis of
9:13
I drove over there so we went
9:15
to the conference rooms. In he laid
9:18
it's like ten or twelve pictures out
9:20
I just I remember looking at the
9:22
photographs said he had taken at the
9:24
scene. In terms of very good corners
9:27
deputy worth a lot of death scenes
9:29
but anybody myself included you can miss
9:31
something and so I I looked at
9:33
the photographs laid out in I just
9:36
started. Hundred absorbing I'm
9:38
and I said. There's.
9:40
Something wrong here. There's something really wrong
9:42
here I said to my i don't
9:45
know for sure but I think disarm
9:47
aside and he said or still kinda
9:49
tell me it's a homicide from looking
9:51
at some pictures. Well number one I
9:53
said did she get manipulated at all
9:55
This is exactly the way we found
9:58
her. Sad, How did authorities. First
10:00
find out that limits dead. He
10:02
said for work and called. She never misses were
10:04
they thought it was unusual say try to college
10:06
was a as you so they asked us to
10:09
welfare checks Japanese did. They got a key to
10:11
the place when an attack and they found her
10:13
in there. I said no foreign ambulance now she's
10:15
obviously deceased ago. No. One
10:17
in all the years I've been doing this
10:19
nobody dies like this. When was supine she
10:22
had her up hands out either side with
10:24
like she just got now the shower she's
10:26
weren't a robe hair was in like a
10:28
perfect com crown around the back of her
10:30
head and I said tim this looks like
10:33
a stage crime scene to be immense. I
10:35
said nobody dies like that. A city die
10:37
in the heat you know they fall over
10:39
and their arms or in their legs are
10:41
cross. It'll go back like a tree and
10:44
I could see in the pitchers that there
10:46
were legates. your marks. Around. Her
10:48
wrists when did have
10:51
very clunky. Loose.
10:53
Bracelets on both rest and I said what
10:55
did the doc say about the marks from
10:58
the bracelet. Learn serious because
11:00
loose bracelets wouldn't. Make like
11:02
a tour. Marks correct Yes As a blitz
11:05
go I want to see are. Termed.
11:07
As. Mrs. Not here are just
11:10
released or to the funeral home and now
11:12
there's no no no no no no no
11:14
I see. Get on the phone, put a
11:16
hold on a water back as I need
11:18
to go tonight and a want some screw
11:20
up where they embalm her are you know
11:23
first thing in the morning? get when back
11:25
here. So I look more at the pictures
11:27
and the more I looked at the pitchers
11:29
I just in have a good feeling about
11:31
any of this. So I said Tim my
11:33
partner is gonna be in with me and
11:36
Raza. I may send him over here to
11:38
check the autopsy. As the labs gonna come
11:40
out on this we're gonna do a full
11:42
processing on when but just don't let the
11:45
doctor know that. Really need to look at
11:47
some stuff a little more thoroughly and so
11:49
that was a plan. So I less the
11:51
morgue and went back because now they had
11:54
completed writing that search warrant in, they were
11:56
in the apartment actually starting to search. So.
11:59
They're in March. Apartments The Remorse Apartment.
12:01
They were photographing everything. One of
12:03
the issues with the smaller agencies
12:05
is sometimes they don't have the
12:07
resources for crime scene processing to
12:09
use the county crime lab. It's
12:11
expensive. I can imagine what the
12:13
bill from the county crime lab
12:15
to the smaller agency would be.
12:17
For a big seen like this
12:19
and multiple autopsies, it would be
12:21
a lot of money, right? boss?
12:23
And be a lot of money.
12:25
Yes, Sir John when you
12:27
say that you, how can that
12:30
your got a new to get
12:32
the crime lab involved in lens
12:34
gas is now use Rescued her
12:37
from the funeral home and brought
12:39
her back to the Marks. Is
12:41
that Paul's. Crime. Lab. I can't
12:43
make that decision for the smaller agency
12:45
but and going to to my chief
12:47
they were trying to get the F
12:49
B I Crime Lab to handle the
12:51
house scene where Leroy ensue had been
12:54
and that would have been an expensive
12:56
endeavor in and of itself. The F
12:58
B I will do it for free.
13:00
The problem is the F B eyes
13:02
response times is sometimes twenty four to
13:04
thirty six hours before they can get
13:06
on. Seen just are people together and
13:08
process that seen in other was moisture
13:10
in the air. There were outdoor issues
13:12
there. Was a bicycle. There was the
13:14
gone. There was, you know, a lot
13:16
of things that needed to be photographed
13:18
and collected before them moisture started. Get
13:20
into. I'm right. So
13:22
are you at Max Apartment
13:24
now with them searching? Are you
13:27
actually Ryan says house? Not go
13:29
back to Marks apartment because they
13:31
had started searching. Why was.the more
13:33
looking for zip ties look for
13:35
zip ties and it's during season
13:37
act as we found packages of
13:40
the same zip ties as the
13:42
zip ties that were used at
13:44
Be Roy ensues house. Now this
13:46
is when I'm on seen ad
13:48
Marks apartment walking through the apartment
13:50
and like John had said when
13:52
he what in under the exigencies
13:54
and solve the weirdness. Now we
13:56
could spend some time and. Evaluate
13:59
Will what ago actually is
14:01
going on inside Marks apartment.
14:03
Mark had it several locations
14:05
aluminum foil tape down to
14:07
like desktop surfaces or countertop
14:09
surfaces with the aluminum foil
14:11
clipped into the grounding part
14:13
of the three Prague outlets.
14:16
And so now you start
14:18
to get into the psychology
14:20
of this offender. He obviously
14:22
had a mental aspect to
14:24
him and as he sitting
14:26
there doing various activities within
14:28
his apartment. He felt he
14:30
was building up an electric charge, said
14:33
he had to dissipate by touching the
14:35
so human of foil every now and
14:37
then. So this is an interesting aspect
14:39
about this offender and he also had
14:41
to do remember this John Mark in
14:43
his apartment had framed his latest sexually
14:46
transmitted disease venereal disease health cast up
14:48
on wall hanging in a higher for
14:50
Africa was in the living room or
14:52
his bedroom or something like that where
14:54
he could point to as a see
14:56
I'd been tested. Wow I think it
14:58
was in the living. Room. Evelyn
15:01
at night it is that test result
15:03
or possess. It was negative so I
15:05
don't have you know His idea was as
15:07
he could bring over his date said will
15:09
heal right away. Hey I'm Marcus here I
15:12
Mark I'm good You not going to get
15:14
a disease A sexy transmitted disease for me.
15:16
Well, at least not needy. They. You know
15:19
isn't the only is t. So.
15:39
You find zip ties and
15:41
Mark is obviously got a
15:43
narrative going on in his
15:45
head that is not like
15:47
most of ours with his
15:49
tinfoil and his antennas and
15:51
things might have a history
15:53
of violence and he known
15:55
to law enforcement. He had
15:57
a couple of very minor injuries on.
16:00
The criminal history. So now he was
16:02
not somebody who had multiple run ins
16:04
with law enforcement. He would get stopped
16:06
because he would be in different locations
16:08
and that helped us come to track
16:11
his movements a little bits Because you
16:13
can do what's called a D O
16:15
J offline search. Meaning even though you're
16:17
not arrested, heirs have police officer say
16:20
runs your name through the warrants database
16:22
or his driver's license. those kinds of
16:24
things we can see how many times
16:26
and were that happen but Mark and
16:28
no arrests and trees. And
16:31
while we were at Marks
16:33
Apartment, a woman approached one
16:36
of the investigators and said
16:38
that she had been sexually
16:40
assaulted by markets and this.
16:43
It occurred months before. I
16:45
think she's telling the truth and
16:47
her story is very believable but
16:49
I think she suffered from i
16:51
don't have mental illness really but
16:54
I think she suffered from some
16:56
horrible self esteem issues and so
16:58
see became friendly with Mark and
17:00
Mark invited her over to his
17:02
apartment and keep my that's the
17:04
place where he had the you
17:06
know the the Negative Sexually Transmitted
17:08
Disease report hanging on the wall.
17:10
He invite her over to watch
17:12
a movie and then he according
17:14
to her went. Into his bedroom
17:16
and came back out. It came
17:18
out with a hatchet. Oh.
17:21
My. God. And told her
17:23
he was going to sex with
17:25
her and proceeded to raper at
17:27
Hatchet Point. But.
17:29
Then she told Cm. You.
17:32
Don't need that. Had said. I'm okay
17:34
with what you're doing, so do we
17:36
have the elements of a forcible rape
17:38
There. And. That's why it was
17:41
not a great case, but that certainly
17:43
happened. And I think to the average
17:45
person one would think even if you
17:47
were planning on you know, having sex
17:50
with disguise. If Mark comes
17:52
out with a hatchet may be a
17:54
romance has gone hundred percent. On
17:56
rather not see normal
17:58
birthmarks with. Actually okay with
18:01
having sex with him as soon as
18:03
he brings a hatchet to the party.
18:05
All bets. Are off the think
18:07
the phrases courses in nature.
18:10
That's the phrase inherently. courses
18:12
to bring the hatchet to
18:14
sexual encounter. Yeah. That the
18:16
I mean the alternative argument easily
18:19
could be that survive instincts doing
18:21
well. Maybe he'll put it down
18:23
if I tell him and this
18:25
will be a problem It to
18:27
go either way. But I can
18:29
also understand how juries they're unpredictable.
18:32
And. Make decisions sometimes were site
18:34
debate here. the same trial that
18:36
I was sitting through gas like
18:39
us as useless in a really
18:41
dark place with her self worth
18:43
and I say she was extremely
18:45
pleased to have Mark pay attention
18:48
to her and fighter over in
18:50
a courtier. her unnecessarily involves of
18:52
hatchet into the equation. this also
18:54
as insight into Marks pathology into
18:56
his fantasy eating Grab a nice,
18:59
he don't grab a gun. He
19:01
purposely chose a hatchet. Which is
19:03
an awkward weapon. In
19:06
order to force a deck to have
19:08
sex with you and my understanding of
19:10
this relationship is probably prior to him
19:13
go into the bedroom and grabbing the
19:15
handset. You know she was cooperative in
19:17
terms of engaging with him whether there
19:20
was any physical aspects are not prior
19:22
to him grabbing the hatchets. So Marcus
19:24
fantasizing about a certain type of violence.
19:27
This is part of his experimentation. Marcus
19:29
thinking am I going to like this?
19:31
Am I going like the fear that
19:34
I see put on her face. And
19:36
Mark is. He is a
19:38
serial predator. He was a
19:40
budding serial killer app point
19:42
he was caught. If it
19:44
wasn't for Sam seeing Leroy
19:46
and Mark out in the
19:49
driveway and Marks got away.
19:51
I guarantee Mark is going
19:53
to have more victims so
19:55
lives were saved in this
19:57
instance. but Marks use of
19:59
the hatch it for me
20:01
as very telling about this
20:03
evolving mindset that Mark has.
20:05
He's. Experimenting and is trying
20:07
to determine. Is this use of
20:09
a hatchet in the sexual scenario
20:11
going to be something that he
20:14
would want to do in the
20:16
future because he gets gratification from
20:18
it in some capacity. Sir.
20:20
John, you learn about the Hatchet
20:22
incident within hours of soon Leroy
20:24
being attacked, their residents and now
20:27
you've got potential least three crime
20:29
scenes, right? You have one search
20:31
warrant seen, You have the neighbor
20:34
who has died of unknown causes
20:36
know you don't Leroy ensue and.
20:40
I imagine you're looking at your watch. Go
20:42
on. Ah, Probably going to be sleeping at
20:44
my desk tonight. Deaths? Yeah. So
20:47
I get back to Marks apartment
20:49
and. My Paul said there's a lot
20:52
of weirdness, but there's no law against
20:54
weirdness, right? Didn't you say
20:56
that you sound zip ties? It marks
20:58
apartments that match the ones that were
21:00
on sale. right? Zip ties exactly
21:02
the same length and style that were
21:05
used at the crime scene. a bit
21:07
zoo and now we raise our probably
21:09
going to require some help from Paul
21:11
in the lab to say that they
21:13
are physically a match to what we
21:15
find his apartment as black zip ties
21:17
look like black surprise to me but
21:19
there are some subtle differences. But. Then
21:21
we got down to a little more
21:23
of the nitty gritty about what they
21:25
were finding and one of the things
21:28
they found it is in the refrigerator
21:30
and this ended up being significant later
21:32
was what appeared to have been a
21:34
stolen bottle of Xylitol which is a
21:36
local anesthetic that when you go get
21:38
stitches are some don't know me up
21:40
can like a nova Came when you
21:42
get your teeth worked on and that's
21:44
not something you can buy at the
21:46
drugstore. It's not a controlled substance but
21:48
you have to in indeed an assassin
21:50
arena health. The Saudi. Cel Marcus
21:52
swipe this bottle as. As
21:55
I thought that would be the presumption
21:57
and there were some syringes there as
21:59
well. So as we're continuing to search
22:02
and they're actually search into the garbage,
22:04
the ford the garbage out onto a
22:06
tarp and gone through just to see
22:08
within their in and see if he
22:11
can find things like receipts to track
22:13
movement. But here's the most interesting aspect
22:15
of when they pull the liner out
22:18
of the garbage, can import the contents
22:20
out between the liner and the actual
22:22
plastic bucket or to zip ties that
22:24
have been used and cats and so.
22:27
They take those zip ties and they
22:29
send them to Paul and Paul. Let's
22:31
use our steal your thunder as we
22:33
wouldn't have any thunder of and hadn't
22:35
been for you guys. Are
22:38
you know at this point I'm no
22:40
longer with the lab? I'm with the
22:42
Da's office. Or that's right, the ass,
22:45
right? Aws out inside Marks apartments are
22:47
you had called me out and then
22:49
after the apartment. That's when we rolled
22:51
over the corridors after you had already
22:53
been out there. That's where I'm having
22:55
to talk to the captain over the
22:57
corners about. The findings of
22:59
the. Binding marks on Linz
23:02
Rest saying that is not consistent
23:04
with the bracelet that had been
23:06
put on her rest to hide
23:08
those binding marks. And I completely
23:10
agree with John that this is
23:12
not looking like a just a
23:14
natural death or some sort of
23:16
accidental. There's enough here, in my
23:18
opinion to justify wound being brought
23:20
back from the funeral home. Their
23:23
sensitivity to that because now the
23:25
family has their loved one and
23:27
now their loved one is being
23:29
taken away from them. Again, and
23:31
they're going. What the hell incompetence
23:33
is going on here? Her sprites
23:35
it. Also, when the zip ties
23:37
are found, this is where my
23:39
former employer the Serious Crime Labs.
23:41
they start doing the testing he
23:43
had our and of course it's
23:45
documenting the zip ties, the fact
23:47
that they're caught t other taking
23:49
measurements, but they're also going to
23:51
swab the zip ties and I'll
23:53
let John talk about what was
23:56
found on the zip ties. So.
23:58
After they did the testing I remember the
24:01
police department who was responsible for this case
24:03
called me and said at a we just
24:05
got the lab work back on the zip
24:07
ties from the garbage can a match the
24:10
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like. The
27:46
crime lab, sound lanes, dna on to
27:48
zip ties that you recovered from Marks
27:50
Apartments which is not dead for Mark.
27:53
And of course now I want to
27:55
know how Lane and Mark knew each
27:57
other. Yeah now the Is.
28:00
About that was we needed to
28:02
look more deeply into that what
28:04
was his relationship with her because
28:06
there was a lot of bizarre
28:08
stuff there. But Mark had some
28:10
kind of friendship acquaintance with Lin.
28:13
Said. They were just friends. The apps
28:15
Market Moon had at most a
28:17
casual friendship. The really? as a
28:19
result of being neighbors in the
28:22
same apartment complex. the only known
28:24
communication that we found was a
28:26
result of look it Up Mark
28:28
Cellphone Correct, Yeah and so they
28:30
knew each other. I see Mark
28:32
develop some can add fixation with
28:34
her in. Here's the really interesting
28:37
part about that's the day that
28:39
when doesn't show up for work
28:41
on Mark add some weird app
28:43
on his cellphone. What takes time to
28:45
get into those phones and then get
28:47
through all the files and are on
28:49
A but had this weird app on
28:51
his phone where it actually recorded his
28:53
calls emitter wave files onto his phone.
28:56
Mark. Is recording his car. His
28:58
own cause, Yes. And so when we
29:00
got into his phone, there's these wave
29:02
files and we play it back. And
29:04
one of the files on that wave
29:07
file list was a call to win
29:09
the morning she died. Mark. Calls
29:11
her up and tells her you
29:13
left your headlights on your car
29:15
and so the presumption there is
29:18
that that's how he got her
29:20
out of her apartment and then
29:22
walked out with her and then
29:24
probably did exactly what he did
29:26
to sue a Blitz Krieger and
29:28
took her back inside and killed
29:31
her. It's. Unfortunate for when that
29:33
she was murdered but how fortuitous that
29:35
and only happened a couple days before
29:37
this case that. John. Caught
29:39
if it happened. A
29:42
week prior you don't get all that
29:44
evidence, it's gone or even attack. I
29:46
was home right What? The neighbor who
29:48
said hey, a death happened in here
29:51
because that would have just been in
29:53
a me own undetermined cause of death
29:55
in the same city. It wouldn't necessarily
29:57
to win the made the link just
29:59
because or in the same complex. For
30:02
I wish I think would be so
30:04
hard on the family to. This is
30:06
the Corner says it's undetermined. You would
30:08
never feel like you had any need.
30:10
Closure as an overused word by. Take
30:12
my point. For like, no
30:14
resolution, Correct. Absolutely. Group. Now
30:17
we don't have a cause of
30:19
death, we have us undetermined pending
30:22
toxicology. So one of the things
30:24
that I talked to Paul about
30:26
and we talked to some other
30:28
m these and just so bunch
30:31
of different people kind of weighing
30:33
in on what we had and
30:35
what we have found the and
30:37
the pathologist agreed that the of
30:39
administered in a substantial enough quantity
30:42
and intramuscular. Leave or intravenously. That
30:44
Zile attained could cause a cardiac
30:46
events. So now we're going around
30:48
for the second. Autopsy.
30:51
On Port When and we found
30:53
two areas on her body that
30:55
appeared to be injection sites. Oh
30:58
wow, I easy mark mine's insect
31:00
in line with the silicone. Correct,
31:02
Yeah, And so the problem is
31:05
that zeiler chain would metabolize in
31:07
the body must like adrenaline and
31:09
so wouldn't necessarily be detectable even
31:11
in a deep talks. So we're
31:14
having a tough situation there. I
31:16
asked the pathologist and time as
31:18
and what if we excise the
31:20
tissue where the injection takes place.
31:23
Can we potentially finds out here
31:25
in he said there's a possibility
31:27
we could do that, so they
31:29
did do that, but the preservation
31:32
wasn't exactly. What the detox lab wanted
31:34
for that they were unable to perform the
31:36
test. It was a situation where we just
31:38
lost that evidence. Have to
31:40
say in setting someone with a
31:42
barely detectable anesthetic is a really
31:45
sophisticated way of killing them on
31:47
I wonder if he said mark
31:50
is that calculating. Mark.
31:52
Was somebody who had a
31:54
pathology a mental aspects but
31:56
was also smart enough to
31:58
start doing the deep. The
32:00
about how can I commit a
32:02
crime and get away with it
32:04
And one of the things it
32:06
Marks apartment. He was on a
32:08
bottom floor and he had a
32:10
porch outback or he had completely
32:12
covered the sports up both with
32:14
plywood and harping to hide it.
32:16
And then Mark had caught and
32:18
access door into the porch barrier
32:20
so he could slip in and
32:22
out of the apartment without being
32:24
seen as Mark went out as
32:26
front doors. Now you've got the
32:28
neighbors watching him now. He's possibly
32:31
going to be caught on video
32:33
camera. Marcus probably slipping in and
32:35
out of this access door that
32:37
he had made and the ports
32:39
and as prowling as Marcus trying
32:41
to formulate is methodology east commit
32:43
more crimes. Mark is also living
32:46
in his community and vulnerable people and
32:48
maybe he cites a potentially be. Easy
32:50
prey. Yeah. And. Will
32:53
to keep chose to live there. particularly
32:55
are ya intentionally from for victims but
32:57
I think other people there was problems
32:59
and so some of her developmentally disabled
33:02
and some of merge down on their
33:04
lock in a seats. Mark recognize that
33:06
there were some victims are more vulnerable
33:08
than others. Didn't Mark ever give a
33:10
reason as to why he killed Lynn? The.
33:13
Motive in least partially from limb
33:15
was that Mark store some shacks
33:17
from her. They're called a check
33:19
cashing company and he's on his
33:21
recorded phone. so he's calling spices
33:23
and he can. I can subjects
33:25
with just an Id you know
33:28
or whatever. Some crush me. How
33:30
does a took one of her
33:32
checks down there and actually Arabic
33:34
successfully gas it or tried to
33:36
guess? It's so. there was a
33:38
robbery component there. And. Mark
33:40
is leaving quite a trail
33:42
as evidence behind with is
33:44
recorded some cars and I
33:46
have assume that he would
33:49
sell the check out to
33:51
himself. Yes, yeah, I think he.
33:53
you know. He's. Using
33:55
those record in phone calls maybe
33:57
to gonna really have the experience.
34:00
Get her into the trap. Killer loan
34:02
out of the house about her head
34:04
lice and. Now. I'm really curious
34:06
about an interview with Mark. I
34:08
hate to let you down, it
34:10
did occur, but he was just
34:12
very vague and obstinate and would
34:14
never fully answer a question. He
34:16
pulled the old i have amnesia
34:18
I don't remember where I was
34:20
or what I would do it
34:22
at this juncture. My current takes
34:24
a while to get me really
34:26
wound up but I was pretty
34:28
wound up with him a couple
34:30
a times and I'll give one
34:32
aspects the ass mark what which
34:34
I. For lunch. At that point he
34:37
was just blanket we I don't remember
34:39
anything about on Mirage raised I don't
34:41
remember anything and see said a sandwich.
34:44
Any kind of sandwich just know shellfish.
34:46
I have an allergy to. Selfish after
34:48
carries an epic in with me everywhere
34:51
I go. And. I was like
34:53
is that right So I walk down
34:55
the hallway like jerk the door open
34:57
the tape is still running I said
34:59
states you sir remember you got a
35:01
selfless allergies or see I can remember
35:03
and raise you would you remember you
35:05
got a happy to sell his allergies
35:07
young women that juries gonna know you're
35:09
nothing but a god damn liar Not
35:11
been get very far with Mark as
35:13
he was just you know I guess
35:15
as uses obstinate said says no place
35:17
to go with those right like to
35:19
bring to I'm hey you know we
35:21
sound some stuff. In your apartment like
35:24
some zip ties that have been
35:26
clips. Those. Types of guys
35:28
you can put in from they are
35:30
okay by yeah, there's of times I
35:32
can confirm that what are they mean
35:35
to me exactly? Are they come up
35:37
with that? You know the stupid stuff
35:39
you seen about the blood red as
35:42
dragon my feet through someone's lawn and
35:44
that just must have picked up some
35:46
ambient blood set of everywhere. So you've
35:48
been in lots of rooms with suspects
35:51
for big crimes that get you decades
35:53
and prison and you've probably seen the
35:55
whole spectrum of this person's definitely. On
35:58
a difference in a crazy versus. This
36:00
person's very calculated but they've got
36:02
some texts vs completely sane whatever
36:05
were to smart, plan on that
36:07
spectrum for you as a great
36:09
question. So March is. I'm. Very.
36:12
Cunning and street smart.
36:15
Marcus. Just doors like Paul was
36:17
a to get out of his
36:19
apartment, be unseen, all it's He's
36:22
very, very criminally sophisticated, but when
36:24
it comes to things like. How
36:27
you would try to. Carve.
36:30
Your case or how you would try
36:32
to manipulate your case to make people
36:34
believe that maybe your unfit to stand
36:36
trial. Those kinds of things he's not
36:38
sophisticated see, does dumb things like get
36:40
on the phone and talk to his
36:42
sister and say all I need to
36:45
do is make him believe that I'm
36:47
this or that. Just for another
36:49
few months and I'm in the clear.
36:51
You know they're not going to be
36:53
a loser. prosecute me. I
36:55
think the last summer heard he's
36:57
at a lot facility and they're
36:59
still trying to determine whether or
37:01
not he is fit to stand
37:04
trial. And that's frustrating for us
37:06
because I recognize the sophistication, hair
37:08
and marks. Acknowledging the he knows
37:10
what he's doing is wrong, because
37:12
he's trying to hide it, is
37:15
trying to fail it as you
37:17
know, a natural desks and surprising
37:19
evidence, Those types of things show
37:21
a level of sophistication that for
37:23
us lay people I. Tend to
37:26
think of us is reasonable people
37:28
that could serve on a jury
37:30
without being excluded. I think. If.
37:33
I'm a juror and I hear
37:35
these types of details. I I
37:37
don't care what Mark looks like
37:39
the on the interview, I can
37:41
tell he knows the difference between
37:43
right and wrong. I can tell
37:45
that Mart was steaming trying to
37:47
avoid prosecution or detection. All these
37:49
things show me that he is
37:51
aware of what he's doing and.
37:54
It's. Frustrating to us. Will make a defense
37:56
attorney and a psychologist come in and say
37:59
you know that. Curses not competent and
38:01
you're like, wow, you want to
38:03
let him out, see what happens.
38:05
There's a cost. To. You guys
38:08
making those types of determinations. From
38:10
the very beginning, Mark recognized how
38:12
com and blood on his clothing
38:14
need to be, explains their kind
38:16
of crazy explanations be does recognize
38:19
the difference. He recognizes the difference
38:21
when you're certainly from right, wrong,
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That's 1800flowers.com
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slash ACAST. John,
41:24
What are you able to charge
41:27
Mark last? does he get charged
41:29
with two murders for letting me
41:31
Ryan, then the attempted homicide for
41:33
what he did tissue. Correct.
41:35
Yeah, he was charged with the
41:37
two homicides and then the attempt
41:39
murder of Sue. You say?
41:42
hasn't gone to trial yet because they
41:44
can't decide whether or not he's competent
41:46
to stand trial. So he's not
41:48
trying to plead not guilty by
41:51
reason of insanity. Marxist T is
41:53
incompetent and he's you know, been
41:55
able to hoodwink some defence expert
41:57
into believing that he does. Appreciate
42:00
the wrong fullness of what he did
42:02
in that he doesn't understand the process
42:05
about what is happening with him. The
42:07
have to understand that are being put
42:09
on trial for what they did in
42:11
that it's a consequence to what they
42:14
did and so that's the standard. Even
42:16
are you has. He had jailhouse
42:18
recording since March phone to his sister.
42:20
All I need to do is pull
42:23
the wool over their eyes for a
42:25
few more months. That's Matt Stone Cold
42:27
Evidence. That is the frustrating part.
42:29
From our perspective is that certain
42:32
folks who are involved in the
42:34
process conveniently ignore things like that.
42:37
They think it's a one off,
42:40
but I think to reasonable people
42:42
we look at that we say
42:44
Mark is clearly confident, he clearly
42:46
understands what's going on, and he
42:48
is saying whatever mental ailments that
42:50
he's trying to persuade of the
42:52
court. Yeah, and I've had.
42:54
I don't know how many, but
42:57
lots of descendants get. You know
42:59
their psyche vowels and you get
43:01
those back. and you get these
43:03
sensors like this defendant to not
43:05
appreciate the circumstances there and those
43:07
types of things. And I'm always
43:09
like whoa, I mean can we
43:11
at least a sign a few
43:13
points on this scale To: is
43:15
this guy likely to move winger
43:17
or as he you know, basically
43:20
I'm gonna play the game ominous
43:22
feel this test on purpose because.
43:24
The cost for me is I
43:26
go to prison for life so
43:28
I'm hoping to lesson that so
43:30
it's biased and the suspect controls
43:32
the bias of the test by
43:34
how the answer. So there are
43:36
ways to get around these things
43:38
and to hoodwink experts who are
43:40
like, oh, now he can help,
43:42
He doesn't even know a planet
43:44
he's on and a rebuttal from
43:47
the prosecution is always full. Here's
43:49
this jail tape. Here's the sophistication
43:51
of the crime scene. It wins
43:53
and. Then days later more sophistication
43:55
as another crime scene except Mark
43:57
was interrupted. any didn't plan. That
44:00
now Marks got explanations for the F
44:02
T O in his trainee. There's all
44:04
this stuff that the prosecutor to bring
44:07
back in and rebuttal to overcome the
44:09
unreasonableness the receive coming from defense attorneys
44:11
and they're experts and to underscore. I've
44:14
been retired. Go! I got six years
44:16
and this case happened several years before
44:18
retired. What year did this happen and
44:21
it was still twenty sustains as who
44:23
are in. This is now. Going.
44:25
On nine years I thought there
44:27
was a conviction and Marcus hold
44:29
up and then one of the
44:32
presidency but know he's he's still
44:34
play the game. Nine years in
44:36
there so charges are filed. Mark
44:38
is in custody and John did
44:40
you get involved in the the
44:42
incident at the jail with Mark?
44:44
I did not because I was
44:46
internal. the sheriff's office handled it
44:48
but I'm familiar with a. Now.
44:50
Don't you can overdo if you're
44:53
if you're comfortable. talk about that
44:55
area. So don't get me wrong
44:57
when I'm talking about some of
44:59
the idiocy and associated with Mark
45:01
statements is a very cunning, very
45:03
dangerous individuals and like cities in
45:05
good physical condition in So he
45:07
was house across the street from
45:09
where I am right now at
45:12
the jail and he was on
45:14
a module. What's a module? Like
45:16
a cell blocks yeah, he
45:18
was restricted access some marches
45:20
intentionally sort of suffering and
45:22
right. So. Mark is
45:25
in custody. It's two deputies to
45:27
open a cell, not one single
45:29
deputy. Mark. Enticed a
45:31
female deputy to open the
45:33
door for some purpose and
45:35
see did that alone. And
45:37
when she did that, he
45:39
actually overpowered her and dragged
45:41
her to another area of
45:43
the cellblocks to a utility
45:45
closet, pulled her inside utility
45:48
closet with him and at
45:50
that point she thought he
45:52
was going to killer he
45:54
had complete control over she
45:56
was yelling. Some deputies heard
45:58
that. Those Japanese figure it
46:00
out something was going on. went
46:02
there in fried her. Wow Damn.
46:05
I think the plan was. Mark.
46:07
Was going to use her as a hostage.
46:09
ever opened the door so you get out
46:11
of jail? Cell. Mark
46:13
is locked up that he has
46:15
not going to trial for these
46:17
two murders. I always think
46:20
about the families. this frustrations just
46:22
must pull your hair out. The
46:24
families are understandably beside themselves, but
46:27
in this particular case, you know
46:29
you think you have all this
46:31
great physical evidence and your think
46:34
we've got this guy and he's
46:36
just playing this game about. I
46:38
don't understand what I did was
46:41
wrong. Ah worst nightmare scenario.
46:43
I just think it goes back
46:45
to let you all have sad
46:47
time and time again and battles
46:50
year at the mercy of whoever
46:52
gets your case. from detectives to
46:54
prosecutors and all you can do
46:56
is hope that you that be.
46:59
A Team. Yep! Exactly.
47:01
I'm serious as I listen to this
47:04
case and mark. Is.
47:07
As much as he is a predator, he is
47:09
a serial liar. right? Not a
47:11
great one by yeah. Not. A good
47:13
one but for all as you
47:15
down days paw and John so
47:18
much as job is every single
47:20
day somebody is gonna lie to
47:22
you on the do it over
47:25
and over and over and over
47:27
And my question is how does
47:29
that color years use the world
47:31
And do you remember a time
47:34
before you became a police officer
47:36
that. People. Didn't lie to you every
47:38
day you never what you were like that then.
47:42
He knows when my wife said to me recently
47:44
says when I first met to your such a
47:46
nice boy. Houses
47:50
are from the pound, brickhouse thou
47:52
or a long, long time without
47:54
a effect when he asked that
47:56
your because I've literally talked to
47:58
people who are. Not even necessarily
48:00
mean I'm is a major criminal but just
48:02
so he who's up to no good and
48:05
need some aspect of a case may be
48:07
or something in. I remember one time this
48:09
one particular one was lion to be about
48:11
something and I said you're lying in you're
48:13
lying about some the you don't even need
48:15
a lie about what is the purpose of
48:17
line about this and this individual stocks you
48:19
Flat out said i don't know metics always
48:21
lie when talk to police. Even.
48:23
About stuff that's in consequence
48:25
of of spits completely. meanings.
48:28
How does it calorie? or view of
48:30
the world even when you're. You
48:32
know, with family on a
48:34
holiday or you're out with
48:36
your friends out since it's
48:38
not color everything around you.
48:41
Yeah, I'm hopeful you don't let it
48:43
get to a point where you're not
48:45
fun to be around anymore for that.
48:47
The my wife's com and there and
48:49
I was little. I was I wrong
48:51
guy or that exactly. But yeah, I
48:53
mean you hear people telling a story
48:55
to some innocuous story C O and
48:57
everybody and Palaces is is listen to
48:59
me like that. That's a lie is
49:01
and it's been. I think about it
49:03
off and on. My God, that's you.
49:05
Think I don't have a well honed
49:07
bullshit matter of I'd try me if
49:09
or know it's. Why I can look at
49:12
certain things and I'm like. The. Light
49:14
hasn't come on for you yet. You still believe
49:16
in people? Yep, that's a great way of putting
49:18
it. Absolutely. Yeah, you saw some faith and people
49:20
new cops are gives them as was I will
49:22
ring that at ease. This
49:25
case in particular is a good example
49:27
of this. You've got an F T
49:29
O with his recruit and Mark is
49:31
planned the name game with. The. Recruit.
49:35
And the recruit probably doesn't even realize it. Then
49:37
you've got the F T O comes over and.
49:39
And. Steps you know the old was one.
49:42
Again, the bullshit. Meter your bandwidth
49:44
for bullshit. Is. Completely
49:47
changed when you become a police officer
49:49
and as you progress through your career,
49:54
It takes you less and less time to
49:56
know that someone is lying to you. Oh
50:00
I say. My Wednesday never looks
50:02
like any of yards Wednesday Ever.
50:04
Not Ever. And nor will it
50:06
ever. And it
50:09
is the most unusual, extraordinarily
50:11
constantly stressful, but also I'm
50:13
sure incredibly rewarding procession. and
50:16
the ones who do it
50:18
well and do it right
50:21
always consider it a. Calling
50:23
and it's clear that your.
50:26
Present. Club June so thank
50:28
you for that. Thank you so
50:30
much for joining us some sure
50:32
everybody here has had very similar
50:34
experiences with cases of these works.
50:36
Sometimes things just fall into place
50:39
and sometimes they don't. Yeah.
50:42
But. I do feel like you know
50:44
one thing so fall into place for
50:46
me. When when I used to got
50:48
on addition I didn't get the job.
50:50
Nothing really bad happens. I didn't get
50:52
the job. I'm terribly disappointed with the
50:54
world as such as when she doesn't
50:56
fall into place for you guys, the
50:58
ripple effect can be enormous. Yeah.
51:01
A chance. I just want to
51:03
point out the witness that came
51:05
forward at Marks Apartment Complex. The
51:07
guy who oppress John about limbs, death, Yeah,
51:10
I think it would have been very
51:12
easy for a lot of cops to
51:14
just go a basically mind your business.
51:16
oh thanks, thanks for your info. Ah,
51:19
let's you know if I need anything
51:21
but John. you ask more questions and
51:23
that's really our job is to ask
51:25
more questions and investigate. That's what we're
51:27
supposed to do and I think it's
51:29
really important that we point those things
51:31
out. Yeah, thank you very much for
51:33
that. Appreciate Debris was there. is it
51:36
or jog. We've had amazing guess on
51:38
the show and listen to them talk.
51:40
About their careers in the work they've
51:42
done, you know it's obvious these guess
51:44
are very dedicated. This is one of
51:46
the few instances where I've seen that
51:48
dedication and that expertise first hand. So
51:50
thank you for taking the time and
51:52
recording with us baseball. Don't forget half
51:54
of what I know you taught me.
51:56
So. Sad
51:59
at below Both went on there you
52:01
go, We swapped information back and forth.
52:03
Mets are assessed. We are honored to
52:05
have you and greatly appreciate you. Coming
52:08
on I'll say yes. Very very very
52:10
nice he goes. Thank you. Is
52:25
produced. And.
52:29
I senior editors are Invasion and
52:31
our editors are. The
52:37
real. Or
52:40
is what could have producers and
52:43
less than half park is it
52:45
or production manager or bookstore. Foods
52:47
and flops run censoring well and
52:49
our social media amazing. Of the
52:51
money. He would make
52:53
our die if he became a member
52:56
of our small farm farm by following
52:58
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53:02
read love hearing from there.
53:08
Was composed by John for. If
53:12
you'd like to support the
53:14
making of is hop on
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Our history on.com/small farm that's.
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53:24
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53:26
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53:30
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53:32
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53:38
and this is an Audio
53:40
Ninety Nine production. Smartass and. From
53:43
us. I
54:05
favorite is Yardley. What if I
54:07
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